Watcher server challenges

[halcyon tapir]

I'm 99% sure it's set per cycle regardless

[neat totem]

That doesn't matter much when you're on 0 or low cycles

[radiant bay]

just completely random I think

[neat totem]

Damn

[radiant bay]

the seed is the campaign seed + number of bad warps already done, so that's what it's based on

[halcyon tapir]

Does changing your seed midrun in remix work for premade seeds?

[radiant bay]

yeah

it changes the warp destination

[halcyon tapir]

Interesting

Could be useful

I guess I was getting unlucky when I tested it

[radiant bay]

what ripple were you at?

[halcyon tapir]

2 iirc

[radiant bay]

ah yeah, might be cause low ripple always tends to send you to the same few places

[halcyon tapir]

Ah okay

Do you know the values for that?

Preferably a consistent failwarp to industrial or outskirts would be good since they have karma flowers

[radiant bay]

they're based off the values in the world txt files? in uhhh

streamingassets/mergedmods/world/indexmaps, the watchercache files

[exotic onyx]

I can confirm that you only need 2 echoes to be able to self warp. Got the Aether Ridge and Torrid Desert and could already warp on Badlands

[radiant bay]

it gets weighted based on the numbers next to the rooms in the second lines of those files

[halcyon tapir]

Really? I could've sworn I needed 3

[radiant bay]

but I've not properly figured out the specifics since it seems to work opposite to how I'd expect from the code

[halcyon tapir]

Everything in this dlc is extremely confusing

[exotic onyx]

you may always bring a karma flower with you through the warp then eat it on the destination

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I suppose I could try and find one

[radiant bay]

here's from looking at it earlier (might be wrong, I was super tired at the time)

[halcyon tapir]

Ah shit wait

I can't go to torrid desert

That relied on resetting the echo portal which I can't do

Actually maybe if I starve? I haven't tested that

yep, that works and feather was right you only need 2

that makes things less complicated

[radiant bay]

[exotic onyx]

Progress!

[halcyon tapir]

sort of! just confirms my already dogshit route technically will work

now I just need to figure out why beeglitch is crashing my game

[exotic onyx]

Anything on your exception log? @halcyon tapir

[halcyon tapir]

I'll test again and get one

Didn't check last time

okay the game didn't crash that time

but the vulture did get what looked like

maybe

triple zoomies

[exotic onyx]

@halcyon tapir nuh I only saw you get realized twice

[halcyon tapir]

oh wrong clip

whoops

something about portal beeglitches is different

I'm not really sure what

I know it's doing something, items still deload when I get far enough away

[exotic onyx]

side note, it's so cursed to see a rift on facility roots of all places

[halcyon tapir]

it is pretty weird looking lmao

hey what makes a self spawned karma flower disappear?

like ones that you spawn by dying

[exotic onyx]

I've noticed that warping out then back into a region with the death flower despawns it, though the map still thinks it's still there

[halcyon tapir]

Ah

That sucks

Route might not be possible after all then

I'll test rq in case it's affected by gates

[neat totem]

I wonder if I should continue my challenge as is or alter it

I thought I had a solid concept and decent viability

[halcyon tapir]

it's mostly just the length of the challenge that I think is the issue

also flower despawned, I think this route is officially dead

[neat totem]

Damn

Is the concept good outside of that?

[halcyon tapir]

I do like the concept of a minimum cycles challenge as like, a personal thing for myself but I think a lot of people would just find it boring idk

plus verification for that would be quite difficult

[neat totem]

Oh, mine doesn't really have minimum cycles

It's just that you can't shelter outside of Outer Rim

But you are right to say verification would be tough

[halcyon tapir]

Even tougher then cos you can't verify by the cycle count

[exotic onyx]

Not really, just screenshots of warping and clips of sheltering showing cycle number would be good

[halcyon tapir]

True I suppose just having a clip of every time you shelter would work

[exotic onyx]

actually you don't even need to show cycle count, validation already tells the cycle number

[halcyon tapir]

If you like it you can always submit it, assuming the submission sheet is/will be updated for watcher

the latest challenge on the custom community challenge sheet is still shartwheel on moon

[exotic onyx]

omg...

[neat totem]

Alright

Well, I'll do the challenge anyways, so might as well

And today has already proven me it is not only possible, but possible on a low cycle count even

If I get everything right, I might get it done in cycle 2

[halcyon tapir]

I hope you have fun with it if you feel its good for an actual rwsc make sure to record it

[neat totem]

Thanks! And yeah, it's really fun imo

I wouldn't suggest it otherwise

Maybe it's just the thrill of exploration

It feels like Perseverance, which I was attempting before, but more complex yet forgiving

Pathing is tougher to figure out and slip ups can be costly, but you don't get instakilled lol

[halcyon tapir]

yeah I do think watcher challenges have a ton of potential for interesting pathing, especially as we learn the maps more thoroughly

[neat totem]

Yeah

Ngl, it was easier than I thought to manage the maps
Given the resources we already have

Echoes are usually in a corner of the map, you can memorize which for each region

[halcyon tapir]

I only have a few specific locations memorized lol

[neat totem]

For this challenge, portals are really discouraged
So

[halcyon tapir]

I need to do more actual runs

[neat totem]

I've memorized at least half (rough) Echo locations, and the portal locations for a few key regions

Like Coral Caves and Rusted Wreck

You are very likely to reach an Echo by just going left

Right-side Echoes are exceptions

[halcyon tapir]

so many people got lucky finding theirs on their first playthrough, I never picked up on a pattern so I full cleared almost every single map

[neat totem]

I cleared basically half before figuring out the pattern

Then proceeded to get more and more Echoes, without realizing I had max Karma or that I was supposed to go to ST, until I had only max and penultimate Karma left lol

I'd love to clear all maps at some point

[halcyon tapir]

you can get more echoes before going to shattered? I didn't know that

[neat totem]

Counterpoint: Aether Ridge and offshoots

Yep

And it raises your minimum Karma

[halcyon tapir]

do they have more dialogue?

[neat totem]

Not sure, as I said I didn't notice getting Karma beyond necessary
I think some did, others just went ...

[halcyon tapir]

interesting

very odd

kinda wish I'd done that now

my save will forever be locked at 5 karma levels lol

[neat totem]

Lol

It could be easy to arrange tbh, if you know where to look for the Echoes

My first region is Sunlit Port, from which I go to Aether Ridge

AR is huge but thankfully the Echo is like 1-3 mins away from the SP drop point

[halcyon tapir]

aether torrid and desolate are the ones I know well

[neat totem]

You can breeze through regions if you know the direct path

[halcyon tapir]

interactive map helps with that

[neat totem]

Yep

And if your portals are consistent (in this run, since it's mostly Echoes, they are), you can just memorize the sequence of rooms you need to go through and nothing more

God forbid me memorizing Aether Ridge

[halcyon tapir]

yeah, so most of the routing would be around which echoes you choose to go to first

[neat totem]

For this specific challenge, it's that and how to optimize your path so you always end up in regions with new Echoes

The early game is tough because you can easily get locked far from new Echoes

E.g. you get dropped in Torrential Railways, where one connected region (Coral Caves) doesn't have an Echo and the other (Aether Ridge) you've already grabbed

So you have to consume at least one extra fatigue "slot" just to proceed

I still suffered from this, but I figured things out
I get sent to Coral Caves, use the portal to Rusted Wreck, and then use its portal to Desolate Tract, which has an Echo

From there onwards it's much easier to chain Echoes

From what I observed, not counting an Echo sending you to a rotted region for fatigue, Echoes always drop you in a region with a new Echo

[halcyon tapir]

I don't think they always do but they very often do yeah

your self warp also prioritizes regions you haven't been to, which could be useful

[neat totem]

Thankfully

You can also stash Karma Flowers since they go with you in the portal

At a point of my successful run, I had Karma protection + 2 Karma flowers on me

If you also set up a checkpoint (by getting an Echo) with a Karma flower, you literally can't lose it

My first stop at ST was like that

[halcyon tapir]

True I forgot echo portals also stash your items

[neat totem]

This run was my first time seeing Prince dialogue

It was cool as fuck

I need to do the second ending at some point

Outer Rim has easily established itself as my favorite region

It has such an awesome vibe of haunting desolation

I picked it for that, and also because it's the most convenient sheltering spot

[halcyon tapir]

Second ending is pretty cool

I saw prince before getting it spoiled which was cool

[neat totem]

It's right before you get free Karma flowers, and right after you get through the hell that are rotted regions (especially Infested Wastes, guh....)
Wouldn't want the challenge to be too hard, or too technical (like using seeds)

That's nice

I didn't get spoiled on anything prior to finishing the first campaign, but I got some snippets of the Prince

I was fortunate enough to find Unfortunate Evolution in my first pt

I definitely didn't shit myself!

[halcyon tapir]

omg same unfortunate evolution was crazy

it came on to the screen so fast and scared the shit out of me lmao

[radiant bay]

I don't hate it but there are like 3+ screens on the way to the throne that could easily be cut

(note: I have made the entire climb up to the throne like 20+ times. yes I made mistakes)

[neat totem]

Happens
And yeah, it's... not fun

[halcyon tapir]

Outer rim is one of my least favorites

[neat totem]

I've made the entire climb around 10 times I think

[halcyon tapir]

The throne and Prince are awesome but everything else is just there to waste your time

[neat totem]

Yeah, in gameplay it's irredeemable

I mean in atmosphere, aesthetic, that sort of thing

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah it's very pretty

But I really am more into gameplay

My favorite visually is signal but I just love loaches too much for desolate tract to not be my number 1

[neat totem]

Considering gameplay... honestly, a lot of people seem to hate it, but I really liked Badlands
Desolate is awesome but not too different from default
I love Signal, though the Strawberries are a bit annoying
Fetid Glen was... interesting

Badlands is so unique with its mechanics
It just needs a tweak or two to make the left side reasonable

[radiant bay]

desolate tract is so funny

almost everyone I've seen either loves it (me) or hates it

[halcyon tapir]

I'm a huge fan of badlands

The locusts could use some work but I don't mind them at all

The echo puzzle isn't nearly as hard as people say either

[neat totem]

Yeah!

[neat totem]

I think its highly geometrical and somewhat repetitive structure is a dealbreaker tbh

I personally really like it, but I can see people not liking it at all

[radiant bay]

I don't really see why that's an issue though, it's not really hard to navigate

[halcyon tapir]

I don't really care for the look of it one way or another, it's very bland

I just love loaches

I think they're so funny silly

[radiant bay]

absolute freaks

disgusting guys

(they're great)

[halcyon tapir]

They're wonderful

All I want to do is legitimately bring one to coral caves so I can see it eat a leviathan

They can be batspeared unlike raindeer

[radiant bay]

does batspear bring it between regions though

[halcyon tapir]

Portal should regardless

Haven't tested it tho tbf

[radiant bay]

"feed ___ to a loach" could be an interesting challenge, if batspearing the loach would be too annoying could batspear something else and bring it to the loach

[halcyon tapir]

I want a challenge involving loaches

And I think them eating literally everything is a fun unique thing

[radiant bay]

wouldn't say leviathan though cause a. spearfisher already exists and b. probably too bad to transport that far

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I know

I was thinking bringing something to it might make more sense

I like the idea of bringing it a tardigrade

[radiant bay]

feed one of every creature to a loach

all hail the loach

[halcyon tapir]

Could call it food poisoning

[radiant bay]

I wanna know if eating tardigrades affects them now actually

I assume not

[halcyon tapir]

I haven't checked

I assume no also

I wonder if a poison spear would kill them

Idk the limits on those

[neat totem]

It might look or feel bland to explore

Loaches are so awesome

[neat totem]

That big tardigrade in Coral Caves

[exotic onyx]

Looking at what Shrub posted on #speed-score-runs, there's 2 main echo chains + a small one that all end on Shattered Terrace, so this observation is correct

[halcyon tapir]

as far as I can tell poison spears do a set amount of DOT

eg I stabbed a red lizard bring it to 80% health and it went to 33% health before stopping

[neat totem]

Could you link this?

[exotic onyx]

It's a small scroll upward #speed-score-runs message

[neat totem]

Alright, ty!

While I will keep the challenge just "only shelter in Outer Rim" to not be a butcher, I would like to try a cycle 2 or even cycle 1 run

[halcyon tapir]

here's another example

since loaches either don't have health or have too much health for mouse drag to display it, they're unaffacted

[exotic onyx]

There's Aether Ridge > Torrid Desert > Badlands > Shrouded Coast > Cold Storage > Salination > Shattered Terrace
and Desolate Tract > Turbulent Pump > Heat Ducts > Stormy Coast > Signal Spires > Shattered Terrace
finally the small chain is Verdant Waterways > Fetid Glen > Shattered Terrace

[hollow zealot]

Around an hour and a half

[lean flicker]

Shattered connect to Daemon and Daemon connect to Outer Ring, if you are able to cloack. If not you need Signal Tower / Salination / Fetid Glen Echo portal

[radiant bay]

you aren't able to cloak, and I believe warps from rotted regions will never take you to shattered as long as you've not managed to get the rot ending

uploading the video now btw, it has a big writeup of all strategy stuff in the description (also it's 8hrs long don't bother watching the whole thing but it might be helpful as a reference to decide if the challenge or a more cut-down version of it with a similar idea would be good)

[hollow zealot]

We should have a challenge with the Boomerang

[radiant bay]

peak item

[lean flicker]

Does dying or using karma caching reset the corruption meter?

[radiant bay]

nope

[halcyon tapir]

Dying does I'm pretty sure

But if your spawn is from a portal it counts as one for the 3 you're allowed to do

[radiant bay]

it does not

doesn't reset invisibility not being possible

but it does make you not tired when you exit the first portal

[halcyon tapir]

huh

interesting

it does if you go back to a shelter

[radiant bay]

if you go back to a shelter?

[halcyon tapir]

as in if you die and return to a shelter

[still sequoia]

so i found out you can carry live eggbugs and it actually doesn't affect your movement too drastically, around the same as a live mouse
and that gave me a really funny idea

Feed all 5 eggbugs in Desolate Tract to a loach live in one cycle.

(there's technically 6 eggbugs but one comes from a lineage tree starting with another eggbug, so they can't coexist)

[ocean comet]

tbh that sounds like Offering 2, with how Loaches can decide to just not eat the eggbug

[halcyon tapir]

They always eat anything that comes into contact with their tentacles, but eggbugs might be very difficult since they're so fast

[exotic onyx]

they may be immobilized using jellyfish or some rock throws but I agree it's too close to <@&1121561261734363208>'s premise

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah

But loaches are so cool

[neat totem]

You could make a Loachrider challenge where you have to traverse a full room while being carried by the loach

Be it on its back, or through grapple worm

[graceful osprey]

It looks like it
5h video

[neat totem]

I think I can cut that down to perhaps less than 3

I got 6 with a LOT of deaths, improvisation and trial and error

Doesn't help that I was still figuring out the pathing and got sent to Infested Wastes

If you beeline for the Echoes, it goes surprisingly fast

[radiant bay]

https://youtu.be/Srk8YTSWXAw here's a video of the full cycle 0 max ripple run, it's 8hrs long so don't watch the whole thing but you can use it as a reference and there's a full mechanics writeup in the description if people wanna know what it involves
imo ripple 5 on cycle 0 would probably be a good challenge if we wanna use this premise, since max ripple takes aaages and gets really janky towards the end

not sure how I feel about RNG seeding - in theory if it's allowed the challenge could be trivialised by just having everyone use the same seed and finding one that places you super close to echoes every time you leave a rotted region, but without it the run becomes pure RNG with the possibility of going way too many regions without getting one with an echo

opinions and feedback are appreciated, I think it's a good basis for a challenge but if it doesn't seem interesting that's fair

[halcyon tapir]

using dedicated seeds takes a lot of the fun of routing away, since they change which region they send you to based on how many times you've slept n stuff

you'd be locked into a very specific path

[radiant bay]

that always happens

getting sent to regions is seeded by the number of warps you've gone through (either bad warps or normal ones)

so warping from the same place on the same cycle will always send you to the same place

also I realised idk if random seed is even possible, there's not an option to randomise it in the remix settings

[halcyon tapir]

It's also seeded by your shelters, so if you sleep it also changes it

And I think 0 is random tho I'm not 100% sure

[solar kraken]

ah no that was me misremembering

the number of cycles is only added to the seed in Sentient Rot Seeding

travelling through a Dynamic Warp, Undefined Warp, or a Bad Warp gets seeded with the sum of the campaign seed and the amount of how many times you've done that

[halcyon tapir]

I swear I've changed the region by sleeping before

[solar kraken]

there are, however, many, many variables that go in selecting a region for a dynamic warp

and undefined warps re-use this

for example, sleeping can raise your current ripple level

[halcyon tapir]

I suppose that'd make sense

[solar kraken]

What influences it is:

• The seed
• Your ripple level
• How many dynamic warps have you created
• Which room you're in (can't warp to the same room you are already in)
• How many dynamic warps still exist (can't warp to rooms that already have a warp there unless as a failsafe)
• Whether you would be spreading sentient rot infection with the warp
  • If so, which other regions have sentient rot spread to them, whether you have had the last Prince conversation and whether you have had the corresponding ending
  • If not, which regions have you not yet visited

anyway look out for a Wiki page

[halcyon tapir]

I'm very excited for the wiki to be updated there's so much information to keep track of in my head it's very overwhelming

hey btw @solar kraken did you ever end up looking into that region loading thing I asked about? all goods if not

[solar kraken]

ah I don't remember it

[neat totem]

Thank you!

[halcyon tapir]

Ah no worries then lol, I think I know how it works from testing anyways

[neat totem]

Yeah, which is why I think challenges that involve messing with seeds are a bit sketchy
But it is an interesting challenge imo, I wouldn't cross it out as a candidate personally

[halcyon tapir]

Not up to me but as someone that'll definitely be doing them all I think super long ones are best to be avoided

My least favorite challenges were the full game ones with restrictions, like fasting

[neat totem]

That too

That said I don't dislike full game ones on principle, it depends on what you're meant to do with your full game

It's a long time and you need to make it engaging

It's something I'm trying to figure out

[still sequoia]

yeah, especially considering it needs a full run to verify afaik
as far as verification goes the longest challenge that exists currently is pers, and even the slowest pers runs are well over 2 times shorter than this

[radiant bay]

yeah, I've spent too long looking at the function but still don't quite understand the results I'm getting ingame

I think if you're warping from a rotted room and don't have the rot ending it picks purely from a list of non-infected regions with equal chances for all of them but that seems weird with how low ripple from a rotted room would consistently bring me to early-game regions

gotta look at it again

[solar kraken]

only after seeing the last Prince dialogue

[radiant bay]

oh, the final dialogue without getting the ending?

[solar kraken]

if the warp would lead to sentient rot infection before that, it only increases the room's weight 8 times

[radiant bay]

ohh, that makes sense

[halcyon tapir]

There's definitely solutions to verification in that case, like someone mentioned recording every time you shelter as the cycle count will increase showing if there's a shelter you didn't record

[radiant bay]

meanwhile my least favourite ones are the super short ones like circuit

[solar kraken]

Besides, this still doesn't let you bypass the ripple level requirements on warps.

[radiant bay]

how do those work? I didn't comprehend them properly

[solar kraken]

For example, all 3 warps in Salination require at least 4 ripple level (7th ripple level).

Any dynamic warp at less ripple level will never pick Salination, consequently.

[halcyon tapir]

Short speedrun ones are definitely the most stressful for me but I just hate being bored while I play, and long ones that aren't necessarily difficult (ie if you find getting across the regions easy, it'll be easy) just end up being boring

[halcyon tapir]

Will there be a tech page/paragraph somewhere on the wiki that lists the ripple levels required to get to each region?

[radiant bay]

ah yeah, didn't properly remember that check
then places you only barely meet the ripple requirement for are weighted more heavily than places you're far above?

[solar kraken]

yeah

[radiant bay]

okay, I understand the results I was getting now ty

[radiant bay]

that's correct, the seed seems to be randomised every time player.watcherupdate() is ran which runs every time player.update() is ran, which seems weird since it seemed to generally bring me to the same place if using it during the same cycle even if the seed is set to 0 but that might just be due to weighting

I guess changing the seed wouldn't ever be needed if that's the case though

choosing my strategy based on bad experimentation

[solar kraken]

https://rainworld.miraheze.org/wiki/UserWiki:Randi_Moth/Warp_Point/Targeting temp list while I'm busy today

[solar kraken]

the seed gets written to and read from the savefile, as it's handled as a part of watcherIntegers in MiscProgressionData which has handling with the save

ig it's mainly checked in Player.Update() to assign a new one should the player switch from the override to random

[radiant bay]

ahh I see

I guess you can randomly reroll it by switching it to and from 0 then

[solar kraken]

userwiki namespace was never actually closed lol, but userspace is planned to be open Very Soon™️

[halcyon tapir]

Just to confirm the ripple level goes up by .5 every echo starting at 0 when you first spawn in industrial?

[solar kraken]

nah, forced override doesn't modify watcherIntegers directly, it just takes priority in watcherCampaignSeed_get

[solar kraken]

first two meetings increase it by 0.25 each

the third raises from 0.5 to 1

[halcyon tapir]

Ah gotcha, so you start at 1 once you pass through the first portal

[solar kraken]

yeah

[radiant bay]

would switching it to 1, loading campaign, then switching it back to 0 and loading campaign work?

[halcyon tapir]

And then minimum of 2 once you have the ability to open portals

Cool

[solar kraken]

no

[radiant bay]

[solar kraken]

what would work is wiping a different campaign's save state because the devs forgot to put a saveStateNumber check on wiping out Watcher savedata there

probably will be fixed next patch, a dev has already been notified about it and has described the issue as oh boy, that's pretty bad (it also wipes out Watcher's ending)

[radiant bay]

[solar kraken]

the override only affects watcherCampaignSeed_get, it doesn't override the raw value underneath

[radiant bay]

that's annoying though, means there's no easy answer for seeding for the challenge I posted since rerolling the randomisation is pretty important to make it actually possible

(without possibly needing to go through like 5 rotted regions in one cycle)

[halcyon tapir]

Is there anything else it changes?

[solar kraken]

a variable that you have beaten the tutorial, marked as true when first going through a portal
(it never gets used for anything)

[halcyon tapir]

Oh huh okay

Thought it might have an effect on which type of karma you have

[radiant bay]

would have been fun

[halcyon tapir]

Would've made cooler OE warp possible but oh well

[radiant bay]

time-limited OE warp

impossible in future patches

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah, but I'd still like to get footage of it

[radiant bay]

wonder if anything funny could be done with the game ending flag

[solar kraken]

you may see that the order is really weird

this is because I directly made a RW mod to export it to a wikitable-formatted string

and it's internally stored as a fucking dictionary with the ripple level as the key and a room name list as the value

[hard kindle]

rain world wtf

[radiant bay]

yeah I noticed that

devs why

[solar kraken]

which puts an extra level of complication into the algorithm

[lean flicker]

Btw, does U.Evolution ALWAYS send you to Outer Rim, or only when you have pending buisness with Prince (new conversation / Ripple level that allow to open a new room in throne)?

[halcyon tapir]

Static warp as far as I can tell from testing, always takes me to WORA_CITY21 on my file with the prince ending finished

[solar kraken]

always, but a random room in it

it's an undefined warp with the region set

[halcyon tapir]

Oh really? How many options are there? I just got city21 5 times in a row

[solar kraken]

Do recall it's seeded

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I did them consecutively with warp mod so my number of warps and karma was increasing

[solar kraken]

I think undefined warps do override and save the new room settings? Will need to double-check

Which may reset on hibernation though

It took me to WORA_DESERT1 on my playthrough

[halcyon tapir]

I believe my first warp to OR was WORA_STARCATCHER02, though I don't recall where that was from

Or actually it might've been WORA_START

Idk it's been a while

[lean flicker]

My first one was START

after that it was always inside the city in different rooms

[halcyon tapir]

I've now been sent to city21 8 times in a row hibernating each time

maybe warp menu is influencing it or smth idk, that's 10 in a row now and that doesn't feel like a coincidence

[lean flicker]

@solar kraken, do you know if Echoes send you to the same region all the time or is there some of the random warp mechanic

[solar kraken]

always the same

the region is not set only for ST and AU, which have an override

[lean flicker]

?

What do you mean

Doesn't Terrace always get you to Urban

and the Signal / Fetid / Salination send you to Terrace

#watcher-spoilers message

I'm looking at this graph and I see that heat ducts seem to have 2 one-way rifts (Stormy Coast is the echo, I'm not sure if Salination is some sort of 2nd location)

and also Shrouded coast doesn't have any one-way arrow for their echo

In theory is extracted from the files so can you check where they send you to (I think Shrouded Coast gets you to Cold Storage but I'm not sure)?

[solar kraken]

which have an override

[lean flicker]

Which is the override?

[solar kraken]

the SpinningTopSpot placed object doesn't have a target defined for ST and AU, but gets overridden directly in code

due to being defined as a rippleWarp

[lean flicker]

You mean the Karma 10 echo is a special hard-coded object that has a set destination writen in a different way (but practicly is just a rift to Urban)?

And the 2 in Urban doesn't do anything since they are just cinematics

[solar kraken]

no, it has the rippleWarp property, so code implements special handling on where to send to depending on its location

[lean flicker]

Btw TGC the dying before being forced to enter a portal still works for Gaining Ripple without visiting new regions (Echos 4+)?

I thought of a Silly challenge that would require to do it once (in Salination in my current routing). Salination echo is on top of a big flooded pipe so you can time when to drown easily. Also with my current routing (Go to Aether first and grab all Echos from the area you are teleported after each one) that one would be one of the "..." ones

[exotic onyx]

gotta be careful there, iirc if Spinning Top hasn't finished monologuing their dialogue interrupts to say something about your death

[raw flame]

Is it confirmed that the echo is called spinning top? or is it a place holder name?

[ocean comet]

It is referred to like that in the code many times afaik

[exotic onyx]

internally it's called that multiple times

Though in-game I think it's unconfirmed, never paid attention

[ocean comet]

In-game, the closest we get to it is them having dialogue about a "top that spins" when describing toys, and afaik nothing more

[raw flame]

probably not official, since it doesn't follow the usual echo naming convention

still cool, can't believe TopMan from Mega Man 3 made it into this game /silly

[ocean comet]

Do note that this is likely the first time we interact with a child ancient

They are kinda special in a lot of ways

[solar kraken]

ah bloody top man

I think IWBTG fangames had an obsession over him

as the stereotypically weakesy robot master

[raw flame]

top man weakest rm?? nah, he's goated I love him

[solar kraken]

a bit expanded https://rainworld.miraheze.org/wiki/UserWiki:Randi_Moth/Warp_Point/Targeting

currently covering dynamic warps

[still sequoia]

i think we're just calling it that because the code name is the only info we have on it at all

[lean flicker]

The options are "OAOAOA", "Spinning Tops"/"Spinny", "The Echo"/"The Child Echo"/"The Small Echo" or "Watcher Shadow"

so most people just call Spinning Tops/Spinny or "The Echo" when they don't want to spoil ending A

[lean flicker]

Btw @solar kraken, it would be cool if in the following paragraph:

If the last Prince dialogue has been seen by the player, they haven't received the corresponding ending yet, and the secondary list has at least one target, it will be chosen.
You mentioned which line of dialog it is (to avoid confusion)

[lean flicker]

Okey, I confirmed that for some reason Heat Ducts have a one-way normal rift into Salination that you cannot go the other way arround (maybe because that area is hard to backtrack or something)

WARE_I14 --> WARB_H13 (the big open room with a bit of popcorn and some propeller turbines)

I imagine is because that area used to connect to Heat Ducts in OG Aether or something?

[halcyon tapir]

I haven't tested ... Dialogues but I can't imagine they're much different from other portals

[lean flicker]

I have solved that with a simpler solution, but it could be cool to know if that tech is usable for speedruns

that don't want to waste time going to Shattered early

[halcyon tapir]

It definitely could assuming it doesn't get patched, quitting out during the portal animation would be the easiest method

[radiant bay]

iwbtg fangames mentioned

[calm spruce]

message

[tropic bison]

what if instead of saying OAOAOAOAOA spinning top said OEOEOEOEOE and warped you to OE each time

that would be kinda awesome

[lilac yacht]

sounds moddable!

[tropic bison]

Ummm No Modded Content! Actually

[lilac yacht]

hey. [mods your content]

[minor badger]

@lilac yacht *BITES YOU!*

[clear gazelle]

i mean OE is actually accessible as watcher

via the usual vulture warp shenanigans through facility roots

they didnt plug that way through outskirts with rot surprisingly

[halcyon tapir]

unfortunately there's no special methods that're possible without cheats

despite my best efforts

[clear gazelle]

dont you need an eel lizard for something? there is an eel lizard in gutter

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah, eel lizard route is fully possible

If a bit annoying

But it sucks

[clear gazelle]

ic

[halcyon tapir]

I still have yet to get sm eel route, who has the easiest time of it

[hollow zealot]

Maybe Industrial Complex sucks too?

[clear gazelle]

[halcyon tapir]

But if we had access to a couple things, watchers creatures and abilities allow for some fun shenanigans

Eg frogs can be used to bypass the waterblock, and can be stored in shelters

And moths allow precipice warp to be possible

But there's no way to get a frog into outskirts while keeping your ability to cross gates

[solar kraken]

can you bring it to SU

eels aren't that mobile, I expect a roadblock may exist

[halcyon tapir]

Eels are super mobile wym

They can climb walls and ceilings

There's no forbidden rooms to the nearest shelter for partial taming either, I checked

[still sequoia]

it might not technically be legit, but could you delete the karma requirement entirely from most gates via enabling monk-style gates? or does that still not allow you to pass

[halcyon tapir]

Still doesn't allow you to pass, unfortunately

I was quite surprised by that

My guess is it just sets it to requiring karma 0 behind the scenes despite the unique visual

Which is the same thing dakr does which also doesn't work

[still sequoia]

dakr's a bit more obvious in that regard, it sets everything to karma 1 so any level <1 is bound to not function

[solar kraken]

ceilings??? huh

[halcyon tapir]

In my experience yeah, the eel during sm warp practice has for sure climbed on the roof of SU_CAVE02

And that's not all climbable bg wall

[halcyon tapir]

he's not very good at it but it's way more than I could get a white lizard to do

[ocean comet]

What about frogs, or little moths? Both could count as a grab while not fully making you unable to move

[halcyon tapir]

Frogs work very well and will be extremely useful, should we find a good way to get them into SU without losing the ability to cross karma gates

They function the same as leeches except they can be stored in shelters

[ocean comet]

Wrongden in an offscreen den should lead you to SU_S01 as non-Hunter I think

And you should theoretically be able to wrongden there using vulture warp

[halcyon tapir]

Not without massive difficulty

[ocean comet]

ofc. This is still a start tho

And in theory possible

[halcyon tapir]

No pups means you'd need the vulture to instantly get into the off screen den while the shelter is closing

[ocean comet]

Yeah

btw is there any difference between using Moth and Vulture warp? Also can spears stick to Loaches?

[halcyon tapir]

It is an interesting premise for sure but not a feasible one in my eyes

Only difference is moths suck at leaving rooms

https://youtu.be/WEziKPWaCMs

[ocean comet]

I think loach or drillcrab warp might be possible

[halcyon tapir]

Haven't tested loaches for warps but they can be batspeared yeah

Same with drill crabs I think

Not that any of that would be useful

[ocean comet]

They use offscreen dens, and avoid the all-forbidden tags made before Watcher

[halcyon tapir]

Nothing avoids that tag afaik

[ocean comet]

Also if some new oddity is discovered about their warps, it could be useful

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah for sure there could be something

It's not something I've put any time into researching

But it's definitely not useful for OE warp which is what I'm most interested in

Drill crabs sink in water which is interesting, but it's not heavy enough to bypass the water block

Regardless tho the karma is the real sticking point, if we can't get regular karma back then there's just no way to cross gates which is necessary

or finding a way to get a karma flower to stay in lower OE while we go to the portal regions to get two echoes

Either would allow a more interesting warp than eel

[ocean comet]

uh I might be stupid, but I cannot find any tags that stop creatures from entering out-of-intended-area Watcher rooms

[halcyon tapir]

Dev tools room attractiveness tool shows them as forbidden

So the only way for them to enter is if they're chasing prey, which is another possibility but has been since way before watcher for other stuff like saint fp

No prey in there means no vultures

[ocean comet]

Which regions did you check? I looked in CC one

[halcyon tapir]

All 3 utilize the same tag

Or 4 I guess since hi also has gw blocked off

Best case scenario we find out that some watcher creature that can fly just ignores room tags or smth

Oh but since they're not normally supposed to go there, moths have nothing barring them from precipice rooms so it's the first time precipice warp has been technically "possible"

[lean flicker]

Can't you OE warp hunter and use the red flower?

wherever you need the flower to be

[solar kraken]

Aren't they marked as HIDDENROOM in the world file?

Or how was it called

[halcyon tapir]

red flower?

[lean flicker]

Hunter Cycle 0 flower

[solar kraken]

I think HIDEROOM

[halcyon tapir]

oh

I actually don't know

let me see

[ocean comet]

A bit rusty, didn't find that

[solar kraken]

I doubt it, haven't checked it in 1.10, but in 1.9 it was locked to 4 specific campaigns

[lean flicker]

Poor Nightcat, Monk and Survivor don't want to share their karma flower

XD

[solar kraken]

It may have moved to a timeline check in 1.10, but Watcher shouldn't fall under it given that they're de facto before every other campaign

[halcyon tapir]

I'm checking now

no flower :(

unfortunate, that could've made it possible

[ocean comet]

Aren't they put after all the others?

[halcyon tapir]

actually it didn't spawn for surv either so maybe I did it wrong

what are the spawning conditions

[solar kraken]

The comparison works by comparing positions in a hard-coded list, not in the ExtEnum.

And that hard-coded list doesn't contain Watcher's timeline.

See e.g. SlugcatStats.AtOrBeforeTimeline()

[solar kraken]

the broken function that may as well just be called BeforeTimeline

[halcyon tapir]

so very unlikely to get a karma flower down there :(

[lean flicker]

NEW DISCOVERY!

Watcher changes Vanilla (Monk atleast)

Having Watcher does the same thing as MSC where colored pearls are not blank anymore. That mean they are key items and can respawn/be used to get scav rep easier

So the chances that it changes something else eventually (maybe add portals or ester egg in other scugs is still alive)

[lilac yacht]

👀

[lean flicker]

Also you can warp into Watcher regions with the Watcher mod enabled + Warp menu (they are probably loaded on memory, they are just waiting for you to be able to find a portal as any other scugs

this is monk

[lilac yacht]

well. yeah. you can warp to silent construct with MSC enabled

the regions all exist, regardless of worldstate

[lean flicker]

Yea, but its good to know that even portal regions don't have some weird optimization that make them unable to be accesed (its the first prerequesite)

[lilac yacht]

why would they have that ❓

i am not sure that would be convenient to code

the regions are not loaded until you try to access them

[lean flicker]

I don't know all watcher regions are quite unique in not having K.G. and using 4 letter IDs

I wouldn't put past them to have 🍝 code make that impossible

[calm spruce]

I was convinced watcher had buffed eels during my first few encounters

did not remember them being that fast or climby

[autumn halo]

oh yea another thing is that portals have a setting for whether they're watcher exclusive or they appear for everyone, which seems weird to add if they aren't gonna do anything with it

[solar kraken]

there's also a setting for which point of the timeline to send to

[autumn halo]

ah yea i saw that too when messing with dev tools

[solar kraken]

which is currently only ever set to Watcher and NULL

[autumn halo]

it just

seems like something that is unnecessary if they aren't gonna use it

so they probably will

[lilac yacht]

👀

interesting for modding...

[lean flicker]

to be fair, adding stuff with unused variables is better for modmaking, that way you can help modders by not needing to redo what you can leave semiopen

[exotic onyx]

It does seem like they're betting on modders to make use of whatever mess they just brought...

Side note, about how much time until we get another batch of challenges? Am hungry for some more

[lilac yacht]

cannot wait for #watcher-server-challenges to be its own channel so i can block all of #watcher-spoilers

[ocean comet]

There is a patch soon, so definitely not before that. Also if it was like Downpour there is 99% chance for no Watcher RWSCs before Console

[exotic onyx]

What about non-watcher ones? Any good ideas there that could be leaked?

[ocean comet]

Tho that doesn't stop the ideas if something becomes popular now it will only be more popular in the future and as such likely become an official challenge

[lilac yacht]

migrate coral crabs to every region.

oops

didn't read non-watcher

anyways. migrate coral crabs to every region. perfectly good watcher challenge idea.

[exotic onyx]

Yea next batch doesn't have to wait for watcher console

[lilac yacht]

wanted to submit a gatewarp challenge some time ago, but gatewarping to SH is not possible as saint. agony

[tropic bison]

The unrighteous GATE_SL_CL

[calm spruce]

my guess is that they'd just add like, a single portal to every campaign in an out-of-the-way spot so you can access the watcher map for funsies

[tropic bison]

I think it should be on the little island in MS_FARSIDE

For spearmaster and artificer too, you need to gate warp to get there

[cedar wasp]

Breakout: Silly concept, cool routing, though the blue lizard is extremely tedious to set up unless someone wants to find a better spot. Fun for me, maybe not the best for others but still a concept I want to put out there for other to try.

the blue lizard one seems to require being pinned 4 times to not fall out during transportation

oh also, ❗ Flashing lights for sped up footage❗

[raw flame]

oh do need to help all lizards escape or just one?

[cedar wasp]

unsure exactly what it would be

every timme I slept they would just wake back up in the cage after I freed them, so you might have to feed them to force them to choose a new den

[calm spruce]

they're probably placed objects

which means they will reappear every time they are abstracted

[cedar wasp]

no they have dens, I had one of them abstract out in my first playthrough and actually choose a new den

I believe because they found a dropwig or something

[raw flame]

also funny how you've made a challenge about breaking creatures out, while I'm currently working on one where you have to put them into prison

[exotic onyx]

you need to make them activate their den finder function, am thinking the most reliable method would be waiting for them to retreat at the end of cycle

[cedar wasp]

ok, that's not too bad

though if one dies won't they go back in?

probably best to just free each one once if it does become one

[exotic onyx]

I don't know if simply following them to a den while they stow something would set their home den

But i am very sure that if they stay on one until the end of cycle, either by the end or being injured, they'll come back out of it until they die or somehow find a way to return to their original ones

[tropic bison]

Could you also just bring them into a portal room and teleport them to a new region for them to pick a new den??

What would happen if you made a portal in the lizard cage room

If it's possible to pull the lizards out by making a portal in that room then there would probably need to be a rule that the lizards can't leave the region

[lean flicker]

@slow slate the problem is the Shattered Terrace Echo needs to flip dimensions (SPECIAL button), and with max corruption you can't cloack/swap dimensions

so no going into Ancient Urban

in cycle 0 or with max corruption

in addition after echo 2 or 3 you get stuck badwarping into Corruption areas and losing time going to OR

[slow slate]

what stops the eco from sending you to a area with another eco and have a seed for that?

[lean flicker]

Seeds are useless for RNG, it was found it has too many variables

Echos CAN send you there, is just gambling

for most echos instead of strategy

[slow slate]

so your saying it possable but it sucks

[lean flicker]

Cycle 0 (no reseting corruption meter) is:
Echo (+1) > Rotted region > Maybe OR long walk > Gamble {Echo region (+1) / No-echo region (+0)} > Rotted region

[elder elm]

[ocean vapor]

you can smuggle the top out of the ending room

[lean flicker]

Some people wanted to smuggle it into Prince

[ocean vapor]

me too

[lilac yacht]

is cycle 0 rot ending possible ❓

[halcyon tapir]

Should be if you skip the echo portal spawn points

[lilac yacht]

devious

[halcyon tapir]

Not sure if the vanilla regions count as rotted for the purposes of spreading the infection

But you can just enter and make a portal from the first region

It would suck tho, definitely not rwsc material

[lilac yacht]

there ARE unused(?) (probably) warp map icons

all echo spot regions

[halcyon tapir]

There are for the three vanilla regions yeah, the rest just have a blank icon

Not unused technically, they're all accessible in game

[lilac yacht]

👀

assuming with repeated dying on spinning top's final lines?

until you get the warp skill

[halcyon tapir]

Nah you have to enter and get two echoes from the first area

If you don't enter a portal on the cycle it spawned it won't set your shelter in it

[lilac yacht]

hmmmmmmmmmm how would you return to the regions then

[halcyon tapir]

So you get the portal to spawn in one of the vanilla regions, die/shelter/quit out, then enter, find two echoes, then die and you'll be returned to the shelter you started in

Easiest route is (cc echo) sunlit port - aether ridge (echo, starve) - torrid desert, die

[lilac yacht]

[halcyon tapir]

Gives you special karma and the warp ability while in the shelter you started in

Which also means you can create two way portals with a karma flower, allowing you to bring creatures out

But you can't cross gates

[lilac yacht]

could there be a way to glitch yourself to have normal karma but keep the warp ability

[halcyon tapir]

It's something I'd very very much like to be discovered because it would completely change what's possible for watcher

[lilac yacht]

johnrottrue

[halcyon tapir]

Including entering OE and every region besides the 3 pebbles regions

But no leads yet

[lilac yacht]

ripple and karma are completely different stats. with the former kicking out the latter

[halcyon tapir]

Yep, completely removes karma

Not even echoes change it back

Like regular ones

[lilac yacht]

damn... was thinking of somehow warping to a regular echo

[halcyon tapir]

Would be possible, sub echo is technically accessible

[lilac yacht]

through OE warps with MSC enabled ❓

[halcyon tapir]

Yep, OE warp with a standard eel route (extremely difficult), then go back through outskirts to CC, do the same thing with the echoes in the portal regions to get your warps back, then do a maybe possible untested gatewarp into sub via a red lizard you took from the portal regions

[lilac yacht]

watcher any% will be diabolical

[halcyon tapir]

There's no way in hell OE warp will be faster than any% for watcher tbh

Maybe if we could do frog route, which would be significantly easier, but even then it's pretty slow and heavily rng

[lilac yacht]

speaking of which, how will watcher any%/ascension route even be done?

[halcyon tapir]

Any% will just be spinning top ending since it's fast

[lilac yacht]

thumb~1

[halcyon tapir]

Under an hour is what skefir said, their pretty unoptimized practice run was around 1:30 when they were streaming the other day

[lilac yacht]

hmmmmm. need to get good at deathless..

oh well that will come with memorizing optimal routes

[halcyon tapir]

Pretty much, learn the regions, learn the route

It'll take some time

[lean flicker]

Skefir (WR holder) did a Speedrun of Watcher ending A (in case you want to know what you can expect from a full run). Lost contains a few silly deaths and a few speedrun quits

It used mainly 3 difficult parts: Badlands with lizard lick (can be mitigated by keeping a sporepuff from LF), a jump near Signal spire Echo and a walljump in the Toy room to go into the bathouse a bit faster

[halcyon tapir]

Do they go through echo room in ancient urban?

[lean flicker]

Yes

they do the wallpounche chain

[halcyon tapir]

Concussion climb?

[lean flicker]

Yes

[halcyon tapir]

I was watching pebbel play earlier and she did that casually lmao

[lean flicker]

I feel is the hardest trick in the run, spire need either a denboost or CTV + flotiness to grab a high ledge

[halcyon tapir]

Very cool stuff

[lean flicker]

and Badlands is badlands

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah, I imagine badlands will eventually use movement only which is gonna suck hard

[lilac yacht]

should practice itemless creatureless badlands...

[halcyon tapir]

It is not something very fun

But progress is being made in #movement

[lilac yacht]

i like antigravity and rot gameplay. it may be fun to me eventually

[halcyon tapir]

Perhaps you are a masochist

Have to be a little bit of a masochist to enjoy rw I suppose

[exotic onyx]

has anyone tested how starvation- ah wait nvm ripple level is death persistent
mm, but what happens if you visit vanilla echoes while starving? does the game save the starving cycle?

[lean flicker]

the mud in question

Just install warp menu mod and test what you want

[lilac yacht]

johnrottrue

[halcyon tapir]

I believe meeting the echo counts as a successful cycle

[lean flicker]

Echo save the corruption meter

and hunger

so it may save starvation

[halcyon tapir]

Vanilla echo that is

[lean flicker]

It's not

I'm pretty sure it deleted my dragonslayer progess

[halcyon tapir]

When they flashbang you back to hi

[lean flicker]

of killing a few lizards

[halcyon tapir]

Oh maybe not then

[lean flicker]

you can test it

kill a lizard and then echo

[halcyon tapir]

Can't rn

Just seemed like that in my testing but I'm probably wrong

[raw flame]

or grapple worm

[lean flicker]

You do all of that to be high enought to grapple into the roof

[raw flame]

you can do it with a corner throw pounce instead but from the right screen

incase you can't ctv

[solar kraken]

you don't need floatiness, a CTV alone works

[radiant bay]

yeah but extremely silly, you'd need to either do a lot of planning (and a good amount of going through rotted basegame regions without dying) or a whole lot of going through rotted basegame regions without dying

[radiant bay]

if you mean the rotted versions of them, they do yeah

[ocean comet]

They do, the first region you enter is rotten because of the 3rd echo teleporting you from a rotten region
Or so I think, unless this is some hard-coded exception

[radiant bay]

I'm tempted to figure out a seed that would work and try to do it, would need to test out the randomiser stuff but

might just be able to do a script that checks seed results until it gets one that would work

not really good as a server challenge though, as was said

[exotic onyx]

the 40 total rot spread bonus cycles makes not spreading the rot to the starting region very hard
LF echo is literally on a rot room so good luck not spreading it onto Coral Caves
CC echo is 1 room next to a rot room but I've heard of folks that did indeed get lucky on not getting rot onto Sunlit Port
SH echo is the best bet but 40 extra cycles is no joke; like half of SH had some rot with a low cycle count

[radiant bay]

I think the starter region just automatically rots after a while? it doesn't rot instantly when you enter I think? correct me if I'm wrong

I've not tried to figure out how it happens

[lilac yacht]

just a silly personal challenge. for later :D

when i am better at deathless routing

let me know if you get a good seed for it

[radiant bay]

[exotic onyx]

It's the same mechanic onto how rot spreads around watcher regions, it's spreading from the infected vanilla room to the starting region via the rift spinning top takes you with

[radiant bay]

that works by checking if you're in a rotted room and infecting the room you enter though, which doesn't seem to be how it works for the first watcher region you enter (again, might be wrong, not checked for sure)

[lilac yacht]

wondering if vanilla regions still rot while out of them, like for watcher regions

[solar kraken]

i can't actually find why the watcher can't cross gate

post-ripple

[lilac yacht]

likely the gates search for karma specifically. ripple is a different stat and overrides karma

[solar kraken]

doesn't work like that

like, you can't have a null karma

it's an int, a primitive type

[calm spruce]

I used the karma commands when I was in ripplemode and it didnt break anything so I assume it just gets stored on the backend

[calm spruce]

did you test it on a karma 1 gate

[solar kraken]

anyway https://rainworld.miraheze.org/wiki/UserWiki:Randi_Moth/Warp_Point/Targeting has been updated with bad warps and undefined warps

[ocean vapor]

doesn’t work for a karma 0 gate iirc

[cedar wasp]

not even monk style gates work

[solar kraken]

which is odd because they don't even check Karma

[calm spruce]

maybe it's an issue with the watcher's player class or something

[solar kraken]

oh nevermind!

[lilac yacht]

watcher has differently rendered sprites i believe. may be wrong

watcher is weird

[solar kraken]

I see why it doesn't work

and

it's actually quite simply

[calm spruce]

randi was taken out by the akupara snipers 🫡

[calm spruce]

just `cause of the fact that it uses the black color channel? or smth else

[calm spruce]

maybe they added that for the same purpose as the mysterious unused subterranean rift

[lilac yacht]

hmmmmmmm makes sense

DMS is also broken on watcher and cubes it. and is solid colored rather than multi colored on multi colored sprites

[halcyon tapir]

So it literally just detects if you have ripple and doesn't allow you to enter the devs fucked me over on purpose

[exotic onyx]

@halcyon tapir not exactly, since you do technically get ripple before the third echo it's just less than 1

[halcyon tapir]

We just need to figure out how to bring that number down

Oh but if we did, it'd remove the ability to make portals cos it's tied to the ripple level

They doomed me from the start

[exotic onyx]

that does hold some truth, since it's checking your maximum ripple, not current

[halcyon tapir]

Oh huh okay

[exotic onyx]

though, how you getting an invalid ripple level without save editing

cosmic ray bit flip 🔥

[halcyon tapir]

I just want something to be possible

Devs why won't you just let me frog warp

[graceful osprey]

This denboost is GREAT

[halcyon tapir]

Oh shit there's a denboost there?

[lean flicker]

yea

is the main way to get heigh, since it's not U-Turn it may be better than the CTV strat but who knows

[halcyon tapir]

I imagine it'd be faster, idk tho

[lean flicker]

with a lineup it may be

since is 1 timing instead of 2

[halcyon tapir]

It also might be enough height to not need to grapple

Which would save time

[lean flicker]

I doubt it

since you can grapple above the pipe for consistency and getting a bit more of speed

and grapple is useful in other rooms so you would take it anyways

[halcyon tapir]

I haven't seen an optimal ctv there but when skefir was doing attempts they had to do an extra swing to grapple above the pipe

If you don't have to do that then it's probably around the same

[lean flicker]

yea, I mean grapple after the den

that also allows a imperfect den to work

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah for sure

[graceful osprey]

You can jump high enough to not need to grapple yes (happened to me once!!! )

[halcyon tapir]

Does it need to be max height?

[graceful osprey]

Idk, but this denboost is way easier than the u-turn one

[vagrant reef]

im so full of toys yum

[radiant bay]

did you transport the toy manually

any challenge involving the toys for me is definitely hampered by the fact that it took me like 20 mins to transport the weird toy + spinning top to just the closest den so taking them any further sounds horribly annoying

[vagrant reef]

yeah you get the hang of it after a while. I don't think its much more cumbersome than carrying a snail around but there are a few rooms you cannot cross with it.

im running around the map "making" golf courses using the top as a ball

ive done one hole in ancient urban and doing one in that room now.

[halcyon tapir]

Does it give you better pounces?

[vagrant reef]

nope :)

[halcyon tapir]

[vagrant reef]

its just a heavy thing that makes it harder to go though one tile gaps

[halcyon tapir]

I wonder if you can spear any of them

That pink thing looks very spearable

[radiant bay]

damn, is there a technique to getting into pipes with it then?

[vagrant reef]

yeah level transition pipes aren't too hard you "just" need to go in backwards most of the time.

and there are weird ways to get though each direction of 1 tile wide pipes.

[halcyon tapir]

Man these toys have very interesting properties

None can be speared, but the weird 3d one gives buffed pounces

And the pink thing is floaty for some reason

Oh and the pink thing gives better pounces too

Man if only they weren't so big

[vagrant reef]

dang i was hoping that you could spear the pink monster so you could bat spear it out :(

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah me too :(

[radiant bay]

[calm spruce]

what, rippled CTV?

or ctv into worm

[lean flicker]

It's in Max -1, so you can get advance tech (Den or CTV), floatinnes (I don't know if Den allow for it) and when you turn invisible then use worm

[hard jewel]

kind of a lame concept I had although I realised it wouldn't work like 7 seconds after thinking of it last night

but like, reaching Spearmaster's starting area as Watcher on the starting cycle? would have been kinda neat though it's very similar to Visitor and also the current near the OE -> SU gate doesn't let you do that anyway

and I suppose you can't really do that without starve flight or other means you can obtain on cycle 0

idk no matter I am very curious to see what kinda challenges are created with Watcher, because the way the campaign works is something I'm sure not something many of us expected

[hard jewel]

I only mention this because I think it's interesting they included the Downpour additions to the regions even though most of them are pretty useless here

like you can go to The Gutter in Watcher.... why 💔

[calm spruce]

at that point you might as well go for the any% vulture warp

[lean flicker]

It's doable if you don't make it Cycle 0

You can go up there with grapple worm from CC, with MSC you can also get a Eel Lizard in CC-Gutter

also Outskirts has a KV so you could batspear him arround if needed

We don't know if we want to make MSC needed for Watcher Challenges anyways so making one require both may be a bad idea anyways

[ocean comet]

I think having a challenge which requires both DLCs is not a good idea

[hollow zealot]

Just imagine if there would be more DLC, it would make it quite difficult

Do we need more challenges for each combination of DLC?

[hard kindle]

Have one watcher + msc chal that's the most obnoxious combination of both possible

[exotic onyx]

then make a milestone that only fits 9 other chals + that one 💥

[cedar wasp]

new rwsc: buy all 3 soundtracks on steam

[halcyon tapir]

Reaching spearmasters spawn is actually really easy on the current patch, getting through the gate down there isn't tho

[hard jewel]

yeah I just mean the gate room, not through it necessarily

[hard jewel]

also wait easy how?

[halcyon tapir]

By doing the no save exploit through the echo portals you can get the ability to make portals in SU

So you just need to bring a frog back from verdant waterways

Since they act the same as leeches for passing the waterblock

[hard jewel]

I see,,

[halcyon tapir]

There's a karma flower in SU so not too bad

[hard jewel]

I don’t know enough about watcher yet for this I don’t think lol

[halcyon tapir]

Have you finished it yet?

[exotic onyx]

I think if there's a challenge about reaching OE gate as non-sm it shouldn't be watcher exclusive, it's accessible to any msc slugcat and watcher would require both DLCs

So arti, hunter, riv, saint and inv challenge

[exotic onyx]

aren't you unable to cross gates with a ripple level?

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I'm not saying it should be added by any means, it'd be silly to add it, just felt I had to point it out for informations sake

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah, you'd have to go to the portal from an SU shelter and get two echoes on the same cycle

[exotic onyx]

oh yea, any shelter

[halcyon tapir]

So also wouldn't be cycle 0

(I think visiting the OE gate as riv actually wouldn't be too bad of a challenge tho, it's quite easy and interesting)

[exotic onyx]

since <@&969750871204307056> exists which is visiting every echo on one shelter, how about a challenge about getting your ripple level locked to max within a certain cycle limit?

[halcyon tapir]

Could be interesting, although that is a lot of echoes

More than double devotee

[exotic onyx]

exactly double devotee there's 13 echoes that can raise ripple but only 12 are needed. visiting spinning top the 13th time just repeats their final dialogue

except that you wouldn't need to reach the spots from one shelter, most echoes are chained one after another

the main issue is how warp fatigue would mandate some sheltering. So maybe it could be timed instead? wait, nah, there's no easy method to go from one chain to another within Shattered Terrace

[halcyon tapir]

I have yet to rule out cycle 0 ending

So same would apply there

I've had a glance at routing and I can't find anything that would actually stop us from getting them all in one cycle from industrial via self portals

Tho, I suppose you'd have to find some way to refresh your seed so you don't go to the same place every time

[exotic onyx]

easy, wipe the data of another save /j

[halcyon tapir]

Oh true actually

[exotic onyx]

(gonna be patched for sure)

[halcyon tapir]

Not patched yet tho

You can also starve to reset your ripple

Or

Whatever the purple gunk is called

Idk the name

Fatigue? I guess?

[exotic onyx]

I just thought of visiting every region without sheltering, but that's a terrible idea since you can't visit even half of the regions without maxing fatigue
even at max ripple, at thr 6th warp you're already getting some fatigue

But man do I crave speed chals

[halcyon tapir]

Oh you get less fatigued the more ripple you have?

[exotic onyx]

Yep!

[halcyon tapir]

Oh wow

That makes cycle 0 win even easier

[exotic onyx]

max ripple straight up lets you warp 5 times before getting drawbacks

[halcyon tapir]

Interesting

[neat totem]

Hmm, this may not be possible depending on whether Indigo Lizards can climb the pipe to the underground tunnel

But

Challenge idea

Caravan - bring an Indigo Lizard across the desert on the left side of the Badlands without taming it.

[cedar wasp]

batspears

[neat totem]

Aren't batspears like, instant

[cedar wasp]

batspears will warp any attached creature to you when you enter a pipe

[ocean vapor]

spearfisher 2

[neat totem]

Yeah, that just kills the spirit of the challenge

[radiant bay]

does it actually affect anything? since you'll be at max fatigue after meeting 2 echoes past the prologue no matter what

no way to meet new echoes without warping, even if you cancel getting warped by the echoes you meet

I guess I'm not that invested in using glitches to deal with it if that's what you're thinking since it's fully possible to just deal with the effects of fatigue and reach max ripple anyway, it just takes a while

(on a related note I spent a bunch of time yesterday working on some code to be able to simulate warps using specific seeds to try to find a seed for actually getting the rot ending on cycle 0 it's slow going though since I'm kinda burned out and my brain isn't working at the moment)

[halcyon tapir]

You don't get max fatigue from the prologue echoes? they don't set fatigue afaik

You only get fatigue from the first portal you enter, which would be replaced by a self portal

So if you don't save at any portal, you could always start from a self portal and be able to travel with no fatigue

At least that's how I'm imagining it in my head, I'm not sure if there's any routing that would make that impossible

It wouldn't be easy or fun but it would be possible

[radiant bay]

ah, I think I get what you're saying, do self portals not give fatigue?

[halcyon tapir]

They do, but only one level, so you could teleport into regions with echoes you don't otherwise have access to through the static portals

And then by the time you get to 10 you can just portal to a shattered terrace connection and go straight to the ending

Your other issue would be having to repeatedly die to respawn the industrial karma flower

But there's a nice convenient dropwig near where you spawn i guess

[lean flicker]

So Aether + Torrid Echos in cycle 2 (after K.C. in HI and sheltering in SU)

both have a pit on the left side so you should be able to die there if needed with timing

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah, you can starve in Aether to reset the echo portal without setting your spawn and go straight to torrid

[lean flicker]

You can reach Torrid with max corruption

[halcyon tapir]

I believe you can just exit out via the menu but torrid is very easy, since you can just walk off screen

[lean flicker]

and shelter there, there is a shelter after the portal

and lots of food nearby

[halcyon tapir]

The starve in Aether would be to prevent the echo portal from setting your spawn

(the echo portal is the one to torrid)

[lean flicker]

exiting in Aether sends you back to Outskirts?

[halcyon tapir]

If you die/quit out yeah

[lean flicker]

but if you starve it doesn't save the new spawnpoint?

[halcyon tapir]

Nope, resets the portal like any other cycle ending thing

And obviously a starve doesn't save your spawn if you die

[ocean comet]

Couldn't you just deathglitch it? HI and CC have scav treasuries so getting a grenade shouldn't be too hard

[halcyon tapir]

Oh yeah that's a thing

How's that work? You start letting a shelter close and then spam respawn after blowing yourself up?

[ocean comet]

When the shelter starts closing, blow yourself up and wait for the shelter to finish closing

afaik you don't need to press respawn yourself, the hibernation screen will simply be replaced with death screen at end of shelter closing

[halcyon tapir]

Ohh gotcha

I think I'm confusing it with a different glitch

That'd work pretty well yeah

You'd have to cross HI every time but nbd

Not if you're caching instead of using nrcd tho

Oh wait no there's a treasury in the new area right?

[ocean comet]

I think the old ones can be reached? Idk

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah but since you'd be spawning in that room the echo sends you to the new area one would be closer I think

I don't remember where it is tho

[radiant bay]

I see I might try messing around a bit this weekend with the echoes without saving glitch then

[halcyon tapir]

Lmk if you need help it's not exactly a hard glitch to grasp tho

[radiant bay]

it's just dying while talking to the echo right?

[halcyon tapir]

❌ echo has special dialogue for when you die, you need to die either on their last line of dialogue, move far enough from them to not be teleported, or move rooms on their last line of dialogue

Or quit to menu during the portal animation I believe

[radiant bay]

ah okay, doesn't sound too hard

[halcyon tapir]

Most echo rooms are large enough that you can just wait somewhere far enough away from the portal to not get teleported

Main one is aether ridge which requires leaving the room/exiting to menu

[radiant bay]

yeah, I noticed that was possible in a few situations

I think I accidentally got the glitch during my first playthrough without noticing, fell into the worm grass in farm arrays and didn't die until the dialogue was finished

(didn't do anything with it though ofc)

[halcyon tapir]

Probably it's honestly not hard to accidentally do

makes it even worse that it can softlock you

[radiant bay]

ah, seems not, I didn't have ripple karma when I respawned

[halcyon tapir]

You don't get ripple karma until you get an echo in the portals, if you activate the glitch

[radiant bay]

ahh, I see

[halcyon tapir]

Likely an attempt at softlock prevention since it'd be very easy to get the echo in farm arrays and fail to portal, like you did

Without sheltering

But if you then enter and get an echo still without sheltering then you're softlocked if you do the glitch again

[radiant bay]

what makes the echo portal not save your game when you go through? sleeping or dying?

(including starving?)

[halcyon tapir]

Just starting from a new cycle in any way

Starving works well to prevent you from going back to your spawn

[rotund perch]

Warp shenanigans

[lean flicker]

Keep in mind you need to find Bitter Aerie echo + is the hardest to pull it off

[rotund perch]

I was out here thinking I was sneaky for getting to AU on cycle 6 by only sheltering at max fatigue only to open this channel and see cycle 0 strats being theorised

[lean flicker]

Cycle 0 has already been recorded

[rotund perch]

Damn

Crazy

[lean flicker]

it can't get into AU since fatigue prevent Echo

but Cycle 1 is possible

firirewolvar did it in VC a few days ago

[rotund perch]

Cycle 0 terrace with max ripple then?

Or what

[lean flicker]

Yea

[rotund perch]

Neat

[lean flicker]

Cycle 0 max ripple

Honestly I would just make it, Cycle 0 Aether for the lulz (tutorial 3 + starting region + aether)

less time lost going in circles in OR

[rotund perch]

That's just using manual warps instead of echo warps right?

[lean flicker]

Each Warp, even manual (I think) gets you to rotted dimension
Each rotted dimension exit gets you to a random region (new regions has x8 chance in random teleports)

So is Rotted -> Maybe big walk of shame in OR desert -> Gamble -> Get echo (if you got into one of the good regions with new echo) [save]

without invisibility and with an annoying graphic at all times

[rotund perch]

So you're mostly at the mercy of random warps & the potential OR warp chance

[lean flicker]

OR is not too random

It has a logic of WHEN to send you to OR

I tink it was 1st rotted region after Ripple 3 / 5 / 7 / 9

or something like that

so you WILL be send there

[rotund perch]

It's that predictable? Neat

[lean flicker]

Prince quest has a few checks when it garantees that you got send to OR if you try to go there. To make it less RNG-dependant

good since is one of the endings, meaning speedruners would hate it otherwise

[rotund perch]

The only rotted warp I did on my first playthrough was to get to OR for the Prince ending

So checks out

[lean flicker]

if not is 1/6 of getting send there I think

[radiant bay]

should go through at least one rotted vanilla region

it's the full experience

[radiant bay]

you get your first rotted region after uhh 4 warps including the one from the prologue/third echo

so ripple 3 if you go optimally (starting region -> AR -> TD)

then your first rotted vanilla region sends you to OR always I think

[radiant bay]

I died during the "..." dialogue and it didn't count for the glitch, it doesn't matter but it means I wasted my time getting to the echo in torrid desert

I'll try quitting out during the portal animation this time

[radiant bay]

coral caves cycle 0 with warp unlocked and only one warp of fatigue

sadly can't think of any way around the DAKR requirement for cycle 0 but hey

also I died like 4 times to the first milk pool in aether ridge

truly an Aether Ridge Moment

ended up going to DT via WR instead of going through AR again

[halcyon tapir]

Bitter aerie echo?

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I hadn't tested the dying one, only heard it works from other people sorry leaving the room on their last line of dialogue is most consistent for the smaller rooms imo

also you could technically theoretically oob clip into shaded and farm arrays gates to do it without dakr if you could find a way to oob in them

[exotic onyx]

@halcyon tapir there's a red in HI

[halcyon tapir]

Could maybe tame it/batspear it yeah

I guess it'd have to be batspeared

Getting it to LF gate might be tricky

[exotic onyx]

mm, could you karma cache after getting one echo? since it sets your respawn point on that one room with the stone heads

[halcyon tapir]

Can't, fills your food to minimum for a real sleep I'm pretty sure

And the echo only raises your karma by 1 for whatever reason

[neat totem]

Does anyone know where the Surface portal is in Shrouded Coast?

[radiant bay]

don't think so? it keeps it at one pip for me

should be possible to cache after meeting one I think

[halcyon tapir]

Oh really? Must've just been eating lmao

I guess I ate to 4 more than once and just assumed it was consistent

Then yeah that'd be easy, just clip into shaded gate via a red lizard oob

"easy"

[radiant bay]

mm, I consistently used caching later in the run for my first run so

guess it's possible

idk how to red lizard oob though so I'm not trying it

[halcyon tapir]

Oh red lizard oob is very easy, you just have to pin it to a wall and then slide under it and throw a weapon

It's a bit inconsistent but works great

[radiant bay]

funny first cycle

[halcyon tapir]

But yeah I won't be attempting it either, I've got more interesting things planned

[radiant bay]

[lean flicker]

shaded could be doable with the red lizard by batspearing him out of the HI hole

can't we just batspear the same red from HI to outskirts gate and then LF using the same strategy?

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah that was the plan, you don't actually need to batspear for the second one tho since you can karma cache

Nobody actually wants to do it tho

Getting into shaded would be the main goal

[lean flicker]

Either Shaded or CC

CC may be shorter but more lizard RNG at the end

[halcyon tapir]

Can't get into CC, not enough karma

Shaded has K1 requirement

If you clip

Then you can choose between LF and CC but CC would be best to do last since it's closest to two echoes