Slugcat Sign Language

[short rose]

💥

[violet scarab]

Thank you Mina!

[short rose]

[violet scarab]

Heres what I've got so far

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cMfvrKuyG4VtiB2J8YDBUI2GzlKpjcvYUR-vW7MH2Sc/edit?usp=drivesdk

[desert knot]

[grand pasture]

heyo, someone started on the idea of slugcat lanuage

now I'll probs be able to use this for something else

👍

[violet scarab]

neat!

plus, you can draw this one!

or animate it

[grand pasture]

For more worldbuilding, I wonder how'd they deal with blind guys (as in blind scugs)

[upper obsidian]

Maybe by touch?

Or making noise by banging rocks or something

[grand pasture]

Yeah... sound and light carry a hell of a lot further than visual stuff

imagine being shushed every moment by a tiny cat bc you won't stop talking out loud

"THEY"LL HEAR YOU!!"

"Nope! It's fine!"

gets eaten

[upper obsidian]

I also think that if slugcat society advance they would create a board with dots poking out of it and their shape and amount would indicate words or numbers

[grand pasture]

like brallie

also if slugcats use guns they'd want silenced guns

[upper obsidian]

exactly

But also use it to communicate with blind scugs

[neat rover]

i always thought scugs would use slingshots

[grand pasture]

ohh like a hunting slingshot irl?

Or maybe crossbows

with a mechanical draw system to offset their low strength

[neat rover]

yeah
smth like that

[violet scarab]

yeah this

tactile sign languages exist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhDtqtd1CZY

[upper obsidian]

Slugcats are really strong they can enlodge spears in concrete

[grand pasture]

I wodner what the slugcat gunpowder age would look like

would they develop firearms similar to what humans made?

[upper obsidian]

I thought about that and I think they might develop large tube shaped muskets using cherrybomb and rocks

Thought I think it's likely scavs would be the first to invent stuff like that

I think slugcats would be more into agriculture and animal domestication

also art

A ton of art

[neat rover]

slugcats might be the first to learn how to make paper/weave cloth after the ancients

[upper obsidian]

Possibly but I doubt it. there isn't as much ancient structures and tech where slugcats live

[grand pasture]

I assume that unlike humans they wouldn't be using much gunpowder plants and such

as weapons. They're loud

If they do, I think firearm suppressor tech would be a priority

[grand pasture]

Back to the language, I do think the idea of an intelligent alien species evolved from flighty, communal prey creatures doing this makes sense

I also wonder if they find something new how'd they describe it

like I wonder what is their sign for "Iterator"

[violet scarab]

I'm thinking their language would lean heavily into descriptive classifiers

so

for new things

esp one off things

they might just describe the itterator

like "draw" out a humanoid shape and then describe how it was connected to an arm

in a room

buuut

maybe they might assign a sign to it

esp after a while

I imagine something to do with the arm

[upper obsidian]

That's a great idea

We know that slugcats are great artists

[gourmand spoilers]

[grand pasture]

I mean the drawings by them and spearmaster would give a hint as to their sapience

isn't gourmand ||teaching the other slugcats about his adventures||

[upper obsidian]

Yeah slugcats are really really smart

[grand pasture]

looking at that I guess slugcats might have a simple culture already

[upper obsidian]

indeed

I'd say they are probably the smartest living creature in rain world (not including iterators)

[desert knot]

i feel like scavs and slugcats are fairly evenly matched there, but their intelligence covers different domains

[grand pasture]

what domains?

[desert knot]

at least when considering slugcats like survivor, since they seem to be the majority

scavs are a lot better at crafting stuff

they can make explosives

they also seem to be able to build Some structures, if the toll posts are any indicator

and they have a rudimentary trade system set up

slugcats i think are more, like, raw intelligence? as in just understanding how the world works

both are highly resourceful

[neat rover]

i thought this was a slugcat taling abt gourmand
not them themselves

[grand pasture]

Ah, yeah the slugcat looks like Monk

[grand pasture]

also, few scugs actually speak

and if they do raising your voice is considered something bad

bc you now have ~a dozen things conmverging on your location

[tranquil charm]

insert scug scream

[violet scarab]

scug?

[tranquil charm]

tis just a small form of saying slugcat

a nickname to the species

[violet scarab]

ahh

[violet scarab]

draft 1 of many of the handshapes

[neat rover]

is it fine if i redraw most of the symbols with the actual slugcat hand?

[violet scarab]

yee

probably preferable

I just can't draw

[grand pasture]

Can slugcats make facial expressions

[violet scarab]

afaik

yes

but not the same ones

we see them ingame and in art

I think the language will make use of eye-movements a lot

more than mouth

maybe ear movements too

but we see less of those

actually I guess we see them in the art

each here has a unique ear position

far backwards for requesting/demure (left pup)
a little back for contented (right pup)
up for on point (right adult, middle pup)
tilted and facing object for focus, confusion, curiosity (left adult)

tho maybe the right adult and middle pup are subtly different

the middle pup is engaged

the right adult might be listening out for prey (alert)

[neat rover]

maybe the sign for itterator is this??
i like the arm idea

[violet scarab]

oo I like that

also neet drawings

is that the arm moving up an down?

mind if I put that on the doc?

[tranquil charm]

Looks alot like the overseers eye

Pretty neat detail if on purpose

[violet scarab]

I think overseer would be like this

[grand pasture]

Wonder how they'd describe colors

If they be good at visual they need it

[violet scarab]

true

well human sign languages often refer to colours of the bodies

red is the lip-mouth colour in most SLs

pink = cheeks in BSL

blue = arm veins in BSL

but slugcats don't have that

so i'm not sure

[desert knot]

maybe something to do with other things that have color?

like an add on sign(?) to the sign of something like, say, blue fruit

so it means the color and not the object

[grand pasture]

Black/white would be eyes/nose

[desert knot]

mmaybe

i think objects would be more reliable considering how many colors slugcats seem to come in

[violet scarab]

I agree

tho many things have colour variance in rainworld

[desert knot]

yeah

[violet scarab]

I think a twist could do colours well

yellow = the colour of one overseer
blue = the colour of a group of overseers

1 x o is one twist
2 x o is two twists

[desert knot]

oo yeah

[grand pasture]

Twist of what tho

[violet scarab]

wrist

https://www.signbsl.com/sign/first

like this

[grand pasture]

Ye wild slugcats have soo many colors that they probs inherited from their parents

[violet scarab]

true

but hard to reference them cause they are all on diferent scugs

[neat rover]

i dont really mind
the elbow goes up, then the rest goes down

[grand pasture]

wat about clockwise/counterclockwise

[grand pasture]

So... how hard would it be for a human to learn scug sign language? It'd incorporate ear and tail gestures which humans don;t have

[violet scarab]

I think in order to practise we will need to make conversions

[violet scarab]

not sure... could be either

[upper obsidian]

Tail gestures is a great idea

[violet scarab]

yeaghh hadn't thought of that before

tail down - timid
tail up - happy
tail rattle - angry
tail swirl - amused

and these are semi-controllable

the same way you can fake a smile

or a laugh

but it will also happen naturally

just ideas

[grand pasture]

I imagine they lash their tails to show they're angry

[violet scarab]

ooo

oooo that works nicely

[grand pasture]

On the subject of language and culture, I imagine the insults native scugs use would be related to rain
"by the floods" was one I came up with on the spot

[violet scarab]

true

a bit of a taboo to mention

maybe they would euphamise "rain" into smthn like "darkness"

[upper obsidian]

That is fascinating

Maybe the slugcat words for things like "death" or "end" would be related to the rain

[violet scarab]

tho be careful, "by the floods" may be a good English translation but "by the" are unlikely to exist in SCSL, for one because sign languages tend to avoid small words like that and for two because thats a very English phrase

[violet scarab]

I like this

[grand pasture]

what about common swear words like "shit/fuck"?

[violet scarab]

yeah I think rain does will there

actually

no shit does good too

because I presume scugs poop right

and that it would produce disease

so

it would be fair to swear

sex might not be taboo to scugs tho

depends how much they mate

and if they are small mammals thats probably a lot

[upper obsidian]

What would be considered taboo in slugcat society?

[violet scarab]

I'm thinking - rain, excriment, predators

not taboo to talk about if the context is right

[upper obsidian]

We don't even know if slugcats poop

[violet scarab]

true

I presume they must tho right?

[grand pasture]

Yeh, living things take dumps

[violet scarab]

I guess it depends what you believe abt the biology of animals in rainworld

[upper obsidian]

We have no idea how biology works in rain world so we can't know for sure

[violet scarab]

I think

for purposes of the language

we include a sign for it

and a note saying "we don't know if scugs poop, but if they do this is the sign for it"

we also don't know how they reproduce

I for one wish rainworld had more attention to detail in terms of reproduction and exriment

[upper obsidian]

The closest thing to taboo/swears that I'm pretty sure slugcats can have an understanding of is "misfortune"

[violet scarab]

maybe

I'm trying to avoid abstract ideas like that tho

so nothing like "luck"

just talking about things that exist in the world

also I think a lot would depend on how scugs are aware of the lore of their environment

like are they aware of the karma system etc

[upper obsidian]

Parasites? There was a plan to add them in downpour but they were scrapped but for all we know they might still be a thing in canon

[violet scarab]

yeah maybe

maybe annoying enemies

leeches

[upper obsidian]

"you are like a leech" I think that could work

[violet scarab]

funnily enough thats also a thing in Eng

happenstantially

[grand pasture]

"Parasite!" - (pretty self explanatory)
"Rain-seeker!" - (someone who engages with taboo in slugcat culture)

[upper obsidian]

"rain-seeker" is good

[violet scarab]

oooo

we would need to work out how to make that in SCSL tho

[upper obsidian]

We need to find a way to describe rain

[violet scarab]

RAIN
(to leave shelter)

correction;

that means;
fluttering fingers above squinted eyes
index lying flat under a roof, leaving that and becoming upright

[upper obsidian]

So "rain seeker" would be
(you) (want) (rain)

[violet scarab]

we haven't got much into grammar yet but thats not what I want to do with the grammar

thats very wordy

instead of YOU WANT, I'd prefer to do it like "you go-out-into"

if others want to do smthn different then we don't have to but

tho I guess WANT isn't that abstract

[grand pasture]

I'm guessing this is the slugcats when their civilisation is just beginning

so they'd not have too many abstract concepts

[violet scarab]

yeah precisely

so I'd aim to describe actions rather than concepts

want seems simple enough

we could even derive that from the karma symbol

the one that looks like 王

together fingers tapping twice on the index finger acting as a stem

ooo

oooo

how about they point at things with a head nod

also pronouns can be done that way

you - nod at the other person
me - chin up and head back slightly
them - nod in their direction
it/that - nod in the direction of something

[violet scarab]

sooo this could be
YOU RAIN 王

and that could get shortened to as an insult

[grand pasture]

Wonder what "Shit!" would look like in slugcat

[desert knot]

sdfgsdgsd

one hand makes a loop around the finger of the other, and the finger is yanked out to. uh. mimic the motion?

that seems unwieldy actually

[grand pasture]

yeah

[grand pasture]

@violet scarab What goes in the "Non-manual features" section?

[violet scarab]

Oh did I forget to add anything?

I'll add it later but basically it'll be face and body movements that a slucat can make that'll be incorporated into the language

[grand pasture]

Alright, so I guess the tail movements to express emotion would also count

[violet scarab]

yeah

I'm doubtless they'd be used if humans had them

[grand pasture]

Humans learning the language would just substitute facial expressions anyway, in-universe.

[tepid grail]

Bump!

Just gonna peek in here for a bit.

[drifting sparrow]

oh dang, this is cool! i dont have anything to contribute but i will be using these resources a bit, maybe

[upper obsidian]

I will certainly use "rain seeker" as a slugcat insult in my comic

It's so good

[violet scarab]

btw - here is the sign I came up for for that

its an index finger (slug cat) going under under the other hand that is fluttering (rain)

[violet scarab]

I'm gonna write a fanfic of my most recent playthrough using SCSL for the dialogue

[tepid grail]

What is this?

[violet scarab]

what is what?

this whole channel?

this is a project to create Slugcat Sign Language

a sign language used by Slugcats

[desert knot]

oh before i forget again

how would names work?

[violet scarab]

not sure

[violet scarab]

not got that far

usually names start out as descriptions or associations

so if someone is associated with something they get that name

so Carpenter gets given that name because they, and their family, are Carpenters

and then as a culure starts to have certain names commonly they become names... like John or whatever

and sometimes names are chosen because a culture thinks that thing is good (or at least neutral)

flower names for instance - Violet, Rose etc

[desert knot]

yeah yeah

[grizzled urchin]

OMG IM NOT THE ONLY ONE THINKING ABOUT SLUGCAT SIGN LANGUAGE

[grizzled urchin]

i just opened the docs and whoa this is awesome

@violet scarab is it okay for me to discuss a bit of downpour spoilers here? but ill still mark it as spoilers like ||this||

[violet scarab]

I'm about halfway through artificer so I don't know much yet... I think you can but might be worth saying if its a big spoiler or minor spoiler, or whether its plot, pear, echo, dialogue etc

[violet scarab]

nice!

[violet scarab]

thanks!

[grizzled urchin]

hmm its like part of the plot with spearmaster and a lil bit of inv

[violet scarab]

inv?

[violet scarab]

btw - do you know any other sign languages? plus whats your thoughts about it?

[grizzled urchin]

oh i guess i shouldn't spoil that

[violet scarab]

is the gist that there is a scene where slugcats interact?

[grizzled urchin]

i am merely a linguistics enthusiast. i dont fully know any sign languages unfortunately. although i am trying to learn one

[violet scarab]

hellyeah its linguistics time

linging time infaxt

I refuse to spwll corractly

[grizzled urchin]

yeah spearmaster specifically. (minor spearmaster spoilers) ||in a scene, the spearmaster speaks. but for reasons that i wouldnt reveal bcuz of spoilers i think they would be mute. even though there's like a lil lore reason to go around the fact, like "OH actually they can speak but in this funny different way". instead, i think they would speak sign language. which is more cool.||
thats how i first got thinking hmm maybe slugcats can use sign language?
in your docs though, you said slugcats use sign language because they need to be silent in order to avoid danger. and that explanation makes more sense now that i think about it

[violet scarab]

oh interesting, I'll look forward to that point then

but yeah my idea of them being silent seems to be true - unlike other creatures that seem to make noise

[grizzled urchin]

oops i worded that weirdlt
i mean that your explanation makes more sense

also now that my brain power is back i need to clarify. ||spearmaster specifically i think would be mute||. which made me think what if there are other deaf or mute slugcats. it just never occured to me that the sign language could appear even amongst hearing slugcats like in your theory

[violet scarab]

a

makes sense

[grizzled urchin]

words are hard

[desert knot]

[removed the spearmaster spoiler]

[grizzled urchin]

oops i was avoiding that

i guess its onoly a minor spoiler

augh what was i doing

yeah

[desert knot]

it says that in spearmaster's campaign description, so i don't really consider it a spoiler

there's a bunch more lore in spearmaster's campaign that i won't go into, but what you've said is canon

[sharp roost]

Spearmaster's campaign description is a spoiler, it's hidden behind "complete Gourmand, Artificer, or Hunter to unlock".

[desert knot]

ah shit i forgot about that

apologies, caliconiko

[grizzled urchin]

o

[violet scarab]

RW spoiler - 5P Rivulet

Slugcat sign language confirmed????

[upper obsidian]

Not really
Pebbles doesn't actually know how slugcats communicate he is just speculating

[violet scarab]

I should've been clearer - /j

[sharp roost]

Now in return I ask you to use whatever grunts, moans and eye-twitches you employ to forward a message to your community.

Please stop scratching your way through my memory arrays.

[tepid grail]

5p never leaves his chamber so, he really are speculating?

[sharp roost]

I mean

overseers are a thing

But, he doesn't usually pay attention to them.

[upper obsidian]

Pebbles also seemed to believe that slugcats weren't capable of communicating about his existence to one another
Which they clearly have the ability to do so, as they have scouts and can communicate complex ideas with drawings

[tepid grail]

Yeah like in the Gourmand campaign

I miss that

[grand pasture]

I imagine scugs would be named after notable deeds or what crafts they have mastered

Also I see fan scugs with ficitonal symbols which in my mind are what scugs use as language

[grand pasture]

He does come around with The Rivulet and later scugs though

[grand pasture]

Hey if anyone's still active here, would this be a fairly accurate slugcat sentence?

The Friend sighed. "Shelter," it gestured, pointing to the location. "Rain comes. Not safe here. Follow."

[violet scarab]

the grammar isn't settled but how I would phrase this is;

"Shelter." it gestured, pointing to the location "Look; drip drip drip. (gesture in a circle) rain flood die. Follow"

I've not god any way of saying "comes", "not", "safe" or "here" yet - and these are relatively abstract words that I try to avoid. I prefer to try to speak very visually so talk about what's going on and what might happen because this is a very "early" language and the slugcats don't abstract much yet.

I am currently playing through downpour before I work on this project more tho

[grand pasture]

Hey, thanks! I was doing a freeform RP with my friends and decided to make one of my characters a slugcat. Was wondering how I would make them speak (though the RP does have translation convention)

[violet scarab]

doing this for RP is more difficult

maybe try make them speak very literally

"this will happen then this will happen then this will happen"

more for like flavour than anything

your choice

good luck

[grand pasture]

No worries!

would slugcats be able to sign these with one hand in your opinion? Like if one hand is busy holding a spear or whatever

like say if a small slugcat party is out hunting/foraging

[violet scarab]

yes

sign languages can be signed one handed

two handed is clearer

but one handed is doable

[grand pasture]

I did think about you saying that slugcats wouldn't have much abstract concepts; though hmm, would 'why/what' exist? I'm uncertain of that

[violet scarab]

Not sure... I think a general question marker that does the job of what could

I think a cocked head and maybe an open hand?

for "what"

like

"I'm confused - show me"

[grand pasture]

ohh, that's an idea

[tepid grail]

Heh, haven't been here a while

good to see some discussion, and yeah I imagine a generic question would work better since this is a really new language in universe

[violet scarab]

yee

maybe it can be any question word

[sharp roost]

canon

Though I could actually reasonably see Survivor being illiterate, given their situation...

[violet scarab]

nice!

OH MY ECHOS I JUST HAD AN IDEA

what if "Rainworld" is what the slugcats call their world?

Rain+Land or something

(I doubt they'd know the world is a sphere so it would be flat maybe?)

rain (wiggling fingers above your eyes) + world/land (hands moving sidways in a flat motion)

[grand pasture]

Wait scugs have a writing system

[grand pasture]

Irl humans knew the world was round tho since ancient Greece

No reason to believe another sapient species would think their world was flat, hrm

[sharp roost]

Actually, I'm not sure the Rain World is round.

Given the existence of the Void Sea and sky dust.

[grand pasture]

Imagine sending human flat earther space colonists over to the Rainworld

More seriously tho, dunno if rw is flat

[violet scarab]

no this is ASLwrite - its how I write slugcat sign language so that others can read it. its not intended to be what the slugcats use

[violet scarab]

the greeks knew it was round because they had maths

[violet scarab]

maybe a compromise could be a circle movement but horizontal not verticle (i.e. "everthing around me" rather than a sphere)

[grand pasture]

Scugs don't maths (yet)

[grand pasture]

Monk would be illiterate too

[tepid grail]

May I use this for making cave paintings in a mod?

[grand pasture]

also can we add all the convo stuff to the doc?

[grand pasture]

Unfortunately the text is too small to see; any other images where I can see the text

[tepid grail]

Convo?

[violet scarab]

its on a google doc I have, but its only half finished

[grand pasture]

oh ok

[grand pasture]

our discussion here, like the theory on if the RW is flat/round, or some of the other signs we described, or slugcat grammmar

[proper spindle]

planet theory (its round)

[sharp roost]

I just realized something.

[SPEARMASTER SPOILERS]

I wonder if ||Spearmaster's language was introduced to any other slugcats||?

If slugcats have a language, it's possible that ||Seven Red Suns either introduced them to the concept or influenced its development, if Spearmaster ever encountered a colony||.

[desert knot]

well there can always be multiple sign languages

i doubt that'd be the only one, though i suppose that depends on where the slugcat colonies are and how many there are

[proper spindle]

with where spearmaster spawns coming from oe, i do think it's likely spear has met the oe colony. it is the most western point of oe.

[sharp roost]

Bold of you to assume the colony existed back then...

[proper spindle]

why wouldn't they...

[violet scarab]

btw whereabouts is that one - I spoiled myself by looking at that just now but now I really wanna find it!

also - really nice to see sign languages discussed in the game, even if it is a liiiitle innaccurate and sliiiiightly offensive

[violet scarab]

I think it definitely could

that seems very plausible

[violet scarab]

if the colonies are in any way decended from any of the slugcats that used this Yellow Dynasty Sign Language, then their sign language could be a direct decendant

[violet scarab]

thats a very good point

[desert knot]

that’s one of the ones between srs and nsh, so it’s not location based

you just have to pick up enough of them to unlock it

[violet scarab]

ohh

[violet scarab]

btw folks, the more I think about this the more I want to inform Videocult about the fact that this line is slightly offensive and based on misconceptions about sign... whats the best way to contact them in a non-annoying way?

[desert knot]

yeah i was thinking about that just earlier

i think you want to contact the msc team instead? most of it was done by them, videocult didn't add much

i have no idea how contacting the team would work though, but they're. like. in the server

[violet scarab]

"msc team"?

[desert knot]

downpour, msc, whatever

videocult was not the one to make the more slugcats expansion

they're a separate team who got given the green light to turn it into an official dlc

[violet scarab]

ohh

do they get to update it?

cause I'd need to contact whoever is in charge of updating it

[desert knot]

yeah, the msc team is in charge of that

i'm not totally sure who worked on spearmaster's campaign though

i know andrew is one of the lead devs...? lead something

[violet scarab]

whats andrews' username?

and/or whats his contact info?

[desert knot]

he's AndrewFM#7496

[violet scarab]

thanks 🙂

[desert knot]

no idea about contact info

[violet scarab]

thas okay

[desert knot]

i don't know how much of the writing he worked on though

[violet scarab]

is he okay about be contacted on here?

[desert knot]

well he's certainly chatted in here before

someone pinged him and he shared a document about evolutionary information in downpour's timeline

but beyond that i have no idea

[violet scarab]

I think contacting the lead something-or-other would be okay because they can talk to whoever is in charge of that part to tweak it. its only a minor tweak (one line) to change

[desert knot]

yeah

[violet scarab]

I'll sleep on it and consider what I have to say

if anyone else knows who to contact abt this feel free to chimb in 🙂

[desert knot]

i have no suggestions and you likely know better than i do on what to change it to

but i agree, that line rankled me a bit

[violet scarab]

glad I'm not the only one

[grand pasture]

Yeah, I'm HoH myself

[violet scarab]

<@&366341475522576386> Haia, we want to contact the people who made the More Slugcats Expansion to tell them about something in their dialogue/story that could be considered insensitive and based off misconceptions (you can read above to see what). But we don't want to bother any devs by contacting out of the blue. Do you know who we should contact and if it is okay to ping, DM, email, etc them? I have so far been given the name AndrewFM, but iirc its against server policy to ping game devs (I don't know if that applies to mod/DLC devs) out of the blue if it can be helped, so I wanted to ask you first.

Also sorry if this is the wrong way to contact the server admin... this server is very big with lots of channels and I never know whats the right place to do something😅

[rancid plank]

I personally do not see an issue with the fictional usage of sign language here. But if you still want to contact the developers of Downpour, you can join the downpour server. An invitation link can be found in server info.

[violet scarab]

I might write out an explanation here at some point then :), we have so far all been on the same page about it feeling off, so there was no need to explain

I will try that avenue, thanks for the advice!

TL;DR - many deaf and hard of hearing people would object to being called "seriously ill". sign languages are not "coded languages", nor are they "authored", nor are they "gestures", nor are they used "communicate with [deaf people]" - this phrasing indicates a set of misconceptions about sign languages. they are unique languages that are created by communities, with unique vocabulary that goes beyond gesture (when using sign languages there is a difference between signs and gestures), and are primarily used amongst deaf people.

[rancid plank]

Ah. I see where the confusion comes from. The language SRS uses is fictional.

[violet scarab]

I know its nitpicky, but these misconceptions are common and harmful to deaf people and sign languages

[violet scarab]

yes I understand that.... my argument is deeper and more nuanced and would take a while to explain, that is the TL;DR

to add a bit more depth; there have been attempts to make coded languages to communicate with deaf people, these have almost always been a failure, and are part of a long history of the oppression of deaf people

the aspect of the real world that rainworld is mirroring here, with the phrasing it is currently using, is one that mirrors the oppression of deaf people when a simple substitution of vocabulary would make it a positive example of supporting deaf liberation

that is all I want to offer

what words to substitute and where

[rancid plank]

Spear master is not deaf though, neither is SRS.

[versed hill]

spearmaster doesnt have mark of comms and so cannot perceive iterator language though, right?

[rancid plank]

The word deaf isn’t mentioned anywhere either. I think trying to draw connections is unhealthy

It is true, speech-wise

The bigger problem is that spear master cannot speak

[versed hill]

definitely worth conveying this to the MSC team and seeing what they can do to accommodate ^^

[rancid plank]

Absolutely

[versed hill]

especially since its dialogue, not asking much to consider tweaks

[violet scarab]

no spearmaster is mute, specifically mechanical mutism where someone lacks the ability to make speech

mutism, like being deaf, is an oppressed disability. for much of history the term was "deaf-mute" or just "mute" (now the former is considered offencive) a practice known as oralism deprived both of their own languages (sign languages) in favour of trying to force us into speech (sometimes with literal torture) or to use 1:1 systems which paralleled with spoken languages

The word deaf isn’t mentioned anywhere either. I think trying to draw connections is unhealthy
No but "seriously ill" was - which is referring to disabilities. Which disability is not clear but the real life parallel is deaf, especially as this regards sign languages

spearmaster doesnt have mark of comms and so cannot perceive iterator language though, right?
true but the language in question was one used "to communicate with the seriously ill [ancients]" of whom there would possibly have been a community

yes it is a fictional world - yes everything could be different - but the real life history it is currently mirroring is one of oppression. It could be the case that this Yellow hegeomony dynasty manual coded language is an oppressive system just like Signed Exact English is in our world (no hate to those that use SEE, criticising the system not the individual), in which case fair play for realism. But there is a reason that coded languages are disprefered by signers in place of sign languages - and an itterator would likely have access to that knowledge

[violet scarab]

will do 🙂

I'm not saying that anyone did bad things here btw - the line is fine on the face of it. just if you know about sign languages (or are deaf or hard of hearing) then this attitude and phrasing is a red flag

[carmine skiff]

I don't remember the term 'seriously ill' being used

could it have been a localization thing?

ok I looked at the satellite

I would have assumed 'seriously ill' means bedridden and weak (not intrinsically deaf or mute)

[violet scarab]

precisely, those are not the users of sign languages (or signed exact languages either)

well

some do

but

usually if they needed it before that anyway

[violet scarab]

I've added it as a bug report on the MSC server now 🙂

https://discord.com/channels/441038846919049227/1096846344410378320

[desert knot]

i mean personally my issue is that the phrasing implies it was created specifically for use for that population, when it's infinitely more likely there was already a preexisting sign language in use by Deaf/HoH members of the society

there will always be genetic variation within any population, and that variation can lead to things like disability. inevitably that leads to the likelihood of there being a Deaf population, which may or may not consider themselves disabled and may or may not want to change that

and either way they would create a language to communicate

i think it's much more likely that that preexisting language was adapted for use by this other population, who might have other things like motor issues or cognitive processing difficulties that may make it complicated to use the original form of the sign language

difficulties that can inadvertently be shared by a slugcat with a wildly different musculoskeletal structure

it'd be nice if the phrasing could be changed to reflect this likelihood

[violet scarab]

mind if I post this in the other chat?

[violet scarab]

@desert knot ^

[violet scarab]

also same - mind if I post this as a screenshot in the report I made?

[desert knot]

don't mind at all, go ahead

[wispy eagle]

this was our intention behind the line - if i remember correctly the idea was that it very much wasn't a proper sign language

[desert knot]

that's kind of tricky ground imo. how do you define what 'counts' as a language?

while i understand the intention, it didn't really come across that way in the end, and i do think some tweaks to wording would be better in the long run

sign pidgins can be languages in their own right too

or, maybe it could be more explicitly referenced as a pidgin. the status of pidgins as languages is kind of complicated

[violet scarab]

thanks for clarifying, though that itself is a misconception of who uses sign language

In humans there is no real reason for the bedridden/weak or their carers to use either a sign language or a sign system (a catchall term for all non-language signed codes). Its usually easier to produce speech than to move around the arms and face.

Its possible that that is different in the ancients by a matter of their biology - but I don't see how. Because the principles of biology between rainworld's life and our life seems to be the same - and motion is far more energy consuming than sound production. Perhaps the ancients' language was not based in sound, perhaps there is some sort of ancient organ that produces and recieves light or psychic rays or something that becomes incapacitated when they are seriously ill - but this would be an in-context equivolent of Deafness. If everyone was psychic then non-psychics would be considered psy-deaf or something. This is equivolent to the way that hearing people can become temporarily deaf during an infection if it affects the ears. Perhaps they all communicate through their tokens of communication.

If the last thing is the case then I think specifying that they are "too ill to use their token of communication" might clear up this confusion. Also making it clear that it is a "simple" or "simplified" coded language could likewise clear up that you are not intending to refer to sign languages from a misconception baseline.

Still doesn't sit right with me as disabled ancients would've existed who could not access whatever form of language the ancients used (perhaps before they invented the token of communication) - and you already made it cannon that something like a sign language did exist, even if not actually a sign language. But its not my art so its your decision to make.

[proper spindle]

did that thread get deleted?

[desert knot]

which thread?

[proper spindle]

the one about the dialogue

[desert knot]

it's in the msc server, not this one

[proper spindle]

oh thank you

[violet scarab]

@proper spindle

[grand pasture]

I wonder what the slugcat writing system would be like

[tepid grail]

[grand pasture]

riv looks happy

[violet scarab]

I presume they might copy the ancient and scav symbols

people tend not to make their own writing systems if they can adopt others'

maybe they would borrow the writing and apply it to SCSL

[grand pasture]

Good enough!
✅

[violet scarab]

if it fits

[violet scarab]

For the purposes of making my own headcannon and making this project I want to assume the following;

The Yellow Hegemonic Dynasty Sign System (YHDSS) used for communication with "seriously ill people" is a simplified version of a Yellow Hegemonic Dynasty Sign Language (YHDSL) used by disabled people who need sign (deaf or whatever other disability), and was chosen partially because of SRS's belief that slugcats wouldn't be able to percieve full language. I want to do so because this seems to line up both with the intentions of the writer and also be an interesting way of re-adding sign languages back into the world

If it can be presumed that Spearmaster had some sort of contact with other slugcats (or any slugpups) along the way - they would have communicated with those slugcats, teaching them their language. Thus YHDSS (and via it YHDSL - I am going to generalise them to YHDS (S simply standing for "signs")) influenced at least some SCSL.

Thus we now have a 4th root from which to derive signs - the YHDS, which were signs originally used by ancients, so we will have to look at ancient morphology more

also

I think its implied that the tree we see at the start has many slugcats

could it be inferred that the slugcat sign language we are creating is centred on this tree?

maybe it should be renamed accordingly

what is the tree called?

is there a community agreed on name?

looking on the wiki I think it seems to be called the Slug Tree

so maybe Slug Tree Sign Language

[desert knot]

i don't think the tree has a name

it's just The Tree™️

i like these ideas though

[violet scarab]

thanks 🙂

I think its likely given Downpour Spearmaster campaign spoilers ||The Spearmaster Campaign seems to start just before/at a similar part to the survivor/monk campaign - coming from the same direction - suggesting that spearmaster could've passed Slug Tree and getting it on. Plus LTTM has seen slugcat||

[proper spindle]

the tree's located in an area called journey's end if a name like that counts

[grand pasture]

Journey Tribe Sign Language?

[violet scarab]

hmm

maybe yeah

[raw oracle]

is this a channel about sign language?

[desert knot]

yeah, slugcat sign specifically

[raw oracle]

for what like spearmaster who has no mouth?

[left surge]

slugcats in general probably are mute

[raw oracle]

but wawa

[left surge]

it's a fandom joke

[raw oracle]

my life's a lie

[left surge]

(though to be fair it'd be annoying to play as something that makes too much noise, so I can see why slugcats are mute as for game design)

I always thought ancients intentionally made slugcats and scavengers mute... for whatever the reason they had in mind for purposed organism

[tepid grail]

maybe slugcats are mute bc the guy who designed them had, "make sure the cat can't complain when it doesn't like you" on his requirements list? lmao

[violet scarab]

that makes sense as an original reason, from there evolution kept it true because slugcats benefit from being quiet given the point they are at on the foodchain - they seem to be a number of predators' preferred meals

[upper patio]

dont believe their lies, scugs say wawa

[raw oracle]

That’s what im sayin

[proper spindle]

wawa isnt a word its a noise

slugcats may wawa but those wawas dont form language

[desert knot]

technically all words are just noise! you could argue that 'wawa' as a morpheme does not convey meaning though

[tepid grail]

[tepid grail]

spearmaster needs a hug

[proper spindle]

i didnt know a better word

[dim hound]

Wha

[left surge]

reviving this thread just in case

https://www.tumblr.com/bitsbug/717433924124590080/vulturebratwurst-bitsbug-me-and-a-friend-have?source=share

(I'm retracting slugcat is mute headcanon since present me now find silent slugcat probably are just game design)

also this slugsign language is super cool, also makes sense that in the wild you sometimes jut can't get to see what's someone's finger is like when there's a bazillion predators roaming around. And that they have like two fingers and a thumb.

[jagged tangle]

[tepid grail]

I gave them three fingers and a thumb instead, but two fingers and 1 thumb works too.
I also LOVE the idea scug language is context dependent

@left surge yeah I had able to talk

[left surge]

I was thinking of sign language stuff because I will need to use that in my comics later on. (IF I can even make those) Kind of lucky because there's an artist on tumblr I followed a long time ago that did a lot of thinking on aliens with less fingers or 2 thumbs and how they could use sign language.
To be honest I was tempted to do 3 fingers too because I just found out how difficult it was to adapt to any sign languages with 2 fingers. I finally decided to continue with 2 fingers because it's what canon is and I want to see how difficult it plays out for my ocs.
And I'm going to use a different irl sign language than ASL for ancient sign language-just so I can use ASL if bitbug's slugsign don't have stuff that I need to use when drawing slug to slug sign language, also that ancient language seems more like asian language than English. (also it confuses me that there's ASL and BSL, what????)

[tepid grail]

I'm sure there's Australian Sign Language and New Zealand Sign Language too, irl

[left surge]

wow

[tepid grail]

now i imagine scug sign languages have different dialects among tribes...

[left surge]

you are onto something there

[desert knot]

there's a lot of sign languages

they're not conversions of a spoken language, they're their own languages

so yes, ASL, BSL, auslan (australian sign), CSL, JSL, etc

different dialects is definitely possible considering sign languages are languages, and most, if not all, languages have dialects

[left surge]

ohh, TIL

[violet scarab]

(also it confuses me that there's ASL and BSL, what????)

The story behind that is actually kindof funny.

So step 1 to understanding is that a sign language is NOT just the signed form of its adjacent spoken language. It has its own vocabulary and grammar. Like in English you might say "I ate an apple" but in BSL you would sign "PAST APPLE ME EAT". This is in part because Deaf communities create sign languages because they cannot hear spoken languages so don't base it off the spoken language - they base it off what they think makes sense. Its also because trying to replicate spoken/written languages in sign is really clunky and difficult, more difficult than just making up new conventions.

Sign languages change with time and separation from eachother just like spoken languages do, so even if two places used to have the same sign language - if they stopped talking to eachohter - they will grow different.

ANYWAY

ASL vs BSL

So there was this guy in America called Thomas Hopkins Gallaudet who was tutoring this Deaf girl. But he didn't really know what he was doing. So he asked around and decided to take a trip to Britain to visit the Braidwood Deaf School in Scotland. But he had a falling out with the British - the Brits say it was his fault, the Americans say it was the Brits' fault. Anyway - so instead he went to Paris.

In Paris he learnt French Sign Language (LSF) - a completely different sign language - and took it over to America (along with a guy named Clerc who was himself Deaf). Then he setup the Gallaudet School for the Deaf which would later become Gallaudet University - one of if not the only university/college in the world to teach primarily in a sign language (ASL). From there ASL spread out across the US (and most of Canada)

So ASL was almost based off BSL (it still would've evolved to be different), but ended up being based off LSF instead because the Yanks and Brits couldn't get along long enough.

Thank you for coming to my infodump 🙂

Also - there are/were 2 BSL based sign languages in North America

Maritime Sign Language - which is exclusively used in Novia Scotia and has a handful of users.
Matha's Vinyard Sign Language - which is theorised to be decended from Old Kentish Sign Language, which is itself the ancestor of BSL - but is now extinct.

Had either of these spread out and become ASL instead of the ASL we have today - ASL would have been related to BSL.

[left surge]

(wait so this means CSL's roots all came from LSF lmao)

[violet scarab]

America dodged BSL 3 times!

[violet scarab]

CSL?

[left surge]

chinese sign language

[violet scarab]

Ohhhh ishhhhhh

Chinese Sign Language is a muddy story

but yes

[left surge]

there was two schools started back then, one taught by american and one taught by french

[violet scarab]

yes

[left surge]

I had to look up on wikipedia for someone else awhile back then

ok wait so there's two other sign languages in america

wow

[violet scarab]

though this does not necessarily mean that the language used there was ASL or LSF. the children brought their own home signs and pre-existing sign languages with them intothe school - thus Chinese sign language emerged out of the combination of these with ASL and LSF

and Taiwanese SL is completely different and influenced / based on Japanese SL

[left surge]

wow

[violet scarab]

I have heard conflicting things about how much NorthCSL and SouthCSL are each based on their own signs vs ASL and LSF respectively

[left surge]

there are official books on CSL later on in 1994 and 2017-2019, according to wikipedia

and I found an online dictionary (judging by the illustrations it's probably the older one) though I need to check the sources and actual books later on

can't fully trust the sources after finding out wikipedia cited a fucking comic book on pied piper's historical origin

[violet scarab]

also apparently Hong Kong SL is more influenced by BSL

[violet scarab]

I think this plan of using an IRL SL for the ancients works well

decided to continue with 2 fingers because it's what canon is and I want to see how difficult it plays out for my ocs.
Ye I agree - it makes it interesting 🙂

[left surge]

there's like 3 things I figured out how the slugcat oc in my story could communicate

1. Just sign language
2. Text to speech, typing it out on whatever citizen id/phone they have
3. Citizen ID scan its person's hands, translating into text, then display/text to speech

[violet scarab]

ooo I like that

I like 3.

and 1.

2. feels a little too anthropromorphic

[left surge]

probably the last one can create a lot of problems because two fingers and a thumb

[violet scarab]

I don't think its a massive problem

[left surge]

yeah but there's a plot reason for that

[violet scarab]

fair enough

I think if you showed them typing in the Ancient language that might make sense

over the course of the game - we the slugcat learn the meaning of at least some of the glyphs

not many

but some

[left surge]

I'm just going to draw keyboard so small no character will show up lol

[violet scarab]

but if there was a plotpoint where a character learnt more

fair

[left surge]

I don't think I can say too much without giving away too much plot, and I don't really like doing long oc lore post, but like the two latter communication methods were specifically because I found out pilots can't be mute. Even deaf people can become pilots but mute people can't, because they can't give out commands and stuff quickly enough. There's so little talking about that.

also the last one came from that black panther beads concept art

[violet scarab]

interesting reason

anway

feel free to steal and add any elements from/to SCSL for your comic :))))))

[left surge]

oh yeah definitely

[violet scarab]

also I've kinda stalled with making it

if you have any suggestions I'd be down

like any vocab you want to know

or how I'd suggest saying a certain thing

[left surge]

like I'm putting actual sign language for ancient sign language, but for slugcats I'm seeing them doing chittering and sign/tactile sign

[violet scarab]

tactile sign is an interesting one

not sure how to either draw or write that

but it would make sense

[left surge]

I imagine they 'talk' a lot using tail/ear (or ear stumps whatever those are) and eyes and stuff

[violet scarab]

for in the dark

oh yeah good point I hadn't considered the tail

should definitely add some tail NMFs

[left surge]

it's like how cats and dog puff tails/tail between legs/wag tail (happy or excited for dogs but angry for cats)

[violet scarab]

yes

some NMFs for those would be cool

I already added the ability to do them with ears

and eyes

a few signs even include them

[desert knot]

makes sense, hong kong was colonized by the brits for like a hundred years

[violet scarab]

Decided I want to come back to this asap and get it finished!!!

or

well

usable

make more of it

so

I need suggestions of signs to add

gonna go through the rainworld wiki tomorrow

[violet scarab]

added abt 30 more signs

[left surge]

so I have discovered alpha slugcat's monkey feet.
I'm still thinking if I should change how I draw slugcats feet to this instead of the canon two toes one, one thing is that it makes more sense for something that can climb poles, but the other thing is that

could they potentially use that feet to sign?

[violet scarab]

Hadn't considered that

[violet scarab]

https://www.tumblr.com/vulturebratwurst/717433740770639872/bitsbug-me-and-a-friend-have-been-developing

somone also made slugcat signs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMN1aZ-x2MU

usable ingame too!

this is amazing

arguably better than what I've been doing

[tepid grail]

@violet scarab would slugcat sign language involve tail movements?

[violet scarab]

probably

if the tails were articulatable

but probably as non-manual features

[tepid grail]

All of this pretty interesting.