also, file history is important to preserve so i am not willing to do this without good reason
#modding-wiki
rotund matrix
it's also just unnecessary to delete the entire page and would be a lot of admin effort for something that already has a solution you can enact (file reuploads) to call us in to delete files every time you want us to
i checked them all, they are all updated and displaying properly for me. unfortunately it seems a lot of them are still exceeding the megapixel count
you need to cut down on the number of frames
don't forget to calculate the megapixel count when you are adjusting the size so you don't have to make multiple revisions
i always keep my calculator up when i'm recording gifs
in short: have a calculator up when editing apngs/gifs and get in the habit of hitting ctrl + f5 after reuploading a file
don't forget to look at any warnings on the page too
it will always display that notice in bold if the megapixel count is too high
rotund matrix
ah
loud lichen
they're basically several pngs concatenated, one for each frame
and still manage to be smaller than gifs
rotund matrix
it really is such a shame that they arent very supported 
loud lichen
they're supported in most modern browser platforms afaik
rotund matrix
yeah but in social media / places like discord for instance 
loud lichen
yeah
discord should have made them animate in embeds
also, size comparison by someone in another server
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1007560833225732106/1013929784734130257/29_08_1.png
ruby dragon
also, file history is important to preserve so i am not willing to do this witho...
i still need effect_4 to be deleted since it won't let me upload the smaller version as apng
and also if you can give me a recommend size + fps set up would be pretty helpful
rotund matrix
i cant really recommend one, because it will vary depending on the effect youre trying to capture
you simply need to do the calculation yourself
again, the formula is height x width x frame count
ruby dragon
ok so what's the maximum i can afford
ruby dragon
those apng haves 1M so i don't understand
rotund matrix
hm
i dont think your calculation is correct because the one i looked at has 14 million but .. that should still be under the limit. hm
let me ask about this
rotund matrix
so like this
no thats the thing, 15 million should be under the limit and therefore work correctly
im going to ask in the MH discord about this
rotund matrix
welp
rotund matrix
even if it seems to work it not officially being supported means if we do run into issues with it we will not really get any help with it
so yeah, gifs it is i suppose
rotund matrix
upload the new versions first and then i will 
ruby dragon
i hate wiki 
rotund matrix
by which i mean the .gifs
i mean its volunteer work, if you dont enjoy doing it then you shouldnt force yourself to
ruby dragon
but it won't let me upload or reupload
ruby dragon
i mean its volunteer work, if you dont enjoy doing it then you shouldnt force yo...
nah i want to help but is kinda frustrating how many attempts i tried to do grug
rotund matrix
unfortunately trial and error is all part of the process
have deleted the apngs now
ruby dragon
okay when i have time i will upload the gif version and hope it works now
cold zinc
okay when i have time i will upload the gif version and hope it works now
You can probably afford to do the ones like the bloom and what fog faster? As in like, setting the effect percentage faster than before
they were slow enough I didn't realize they were actually animated at first..
ruby dragon
i can make it shorter to 5 sec if you want
ruby dragon
ya, i didn't count to use gif, but guess we need to
also idea or suggestion how to showcase loud thunder and SSmusic?
vernal kraken
i think a section is missing (https://rainworldmodding.miraheze.org/wiki/Downpour_Reference/File_Formats)
loud lichen
may have commented it out or something
actually might have been a pandoc conversion thing
loud lichen
i'll be able to contribute again and fix it in a couple of days
meager geode
Did the page with all the editor effects get migrated over?
torpid condor
I don't believe those pages ever made it from the fandom wiki to the github one
meager geode
I've only ever seen them on the github wiki.
torpid condor
do you know what the page was called?
meager geode
I thought it was on the effects editor page; right at the top was a grid of images showing each individual effect on the same geometry.
torpid condor
oh right, somebody was still working on the level editor pages
winged rapids
Dakras was working on them. Can't remember if they said they had a draft already or not
loud lichen
Did the page with all the editor effects get migrated over?
previously separate LE element pages are under Level Editor page, inside a tabber
meager geode
The region lease should be linked to somewhere on the wiki if it isn't already.
winged rapids
trying to do this but it doesn't seem to come through on the page... not sure why not
winged rapids
The region lease should be linked to somewhere on the wiki if it isn't already.
this is a good idea. Is there anyone with sufficient experience with related things available to do this? Adding to the trello
@loud lichen I assume this was you? What exactly does it mean? I was thinking of just leaving as is since the in-repo slugbase wiki already deals with the details
loud lichen
oh i forgot about the gh slugbase wiki
loud lichen
as it has probably been inferred already, my delays turned undefined-length
apologies for that
winged rapids
modding-wiki
@inland relic
(orig message for reference: <#wiki message>)
that section doesn't exist anymore because the bepinex page was rewritten in full. I currently don't have time to write it up for the wiki, but you can use tools like https://github.com/Reinms/Stubber-Publicizer to publicise (and stub) your game assembly for reference purposes when building. You don't need to worry about publicity at runtime anymore because rw bepinex (and realm) already have solutions baked in
thanks for bringing this up though
inland relic
Out of curiosity, what are those solutions? I solved my problem using Reflection but it feels weird 
winged rapids
I'm not sure what you mean
Oh
You don't need to do anything
When I say they already have solutions baked in I mean they do it in the background. Not sure about realm but rw bepinex has a dragon (patchers written by bee) that inserts some code into each plugin iirc
It's likely similar reflection code to what you've used slime knows what's up
wise saddle
Out of curiosity, what are those solutions? I solved my problem using Reflection...
Reflection's fine, it's just slow. The tricks casheww posted allow you to directly access private members as if they were public. It looks nicer and runs faster
The solutions mentioned are just a few assembly attributes that tell the runtime to not throw errors when you try to access private members
[module: UnverifiableCode]
[assembly: SecurityPermission( SecurityAction.RequestMinimum, SkipVerification = true )]
stiff fern
any way to get perma-links to sections in a document?
I can't imagine thats not a feature
hilarious, their on demo on how it should work doesn't seem to work https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Help:Section#Section linking
rotund matrix
assuming by "document" you mean a page on the wiki the syntax is [[Page Name#Header Name]]
example from the main wiki: [[Green Lizard#Trivia]]
stiff fern
I meant being able to link to the wiki say on a discord message, so that it scrolls to a specific region on the page
winged rapids
https://rainworldmodding.miraheze.org/wiki/BepInPlugins#Prerequisites this what you want?
stiff fern
Seems to work
stiff fern
hilarious, their on demo on how it should work doesn't seem to work https://meta...
but this one for instance doesn't
maybe having whitespaces breaks it
rotund matrix
i think its because for some reason the space is being interpreted as a %20 instead of a _
this works
winged rapids
weird
stiff fern
aha!
that's all I needed thanks
I bet some extension out there gives you the 🔗 little icon for convenience
fierce tendon
ok, i know this page is more like a "totorial for the process" but we should really get a better example of what a good room looks like
specially because thats not how you use cogs, wheels and gears, you shouldnt teach the new modders to do this 💀
also
this guide doesnt show how to use light editor 
meager geode
Or blackgoo properly
fierce tendon
i think this page should be one of the most imprtant ones considering how many ppl wants to start a levelediting, we should make a more "faithfull" room
rotund matrix
ok, i know this page is more like a "totorial for the process" but we should rea...
what makes a room "good" is highly subjective
fierce tendon
its not
new ppl tries to learn, dont teach them things like these because then you are gonna point out how that shouldnt be done, just put it in the wiki
rotund matrix
trying to enforce stylistic guidelines on what people create will do nothing but hamper their creativity
not to mention that wikis are intended to be as objective as possible
rotund matrix
as soon as you start trying to say "you have to use x in y way or else it doesnt meet [subjective standard]" you'll fall down a rabbit hole of forever contending these kinds of statements
fierce tendon
props in layer 0 will be fused with geomerty and is extremely discouraged since it isnt evident at first (i have been working with intrepid and they kept constantly doing this) the example room "teaching you" this is ok. is not good
meager geode
Kip, there is literally a large, barren wall in the background.
rotund matrix
i am making no statement on whether or not the room looks good, i am saying that subjectivity is an incredibly slippery slide in the context of wikis
fierce tendon
the "all art is good" doesnt apply here kip
they are still free to do whatever they want, but there are obvious things you shouldnt do as a common practice
so, dont teach that to ppl who is starting
meager geode
At any rate, the tutorial doesn't teach you how to use the lighting editor.
fierce tendon
also only uses 2 effects
this wall is... not good
also devtools could like, elaborate more into more stuff like decals
in fact i thought this flat wall was some odd tutorial for decals
but, no, is just there, not even with "roughen effect"
Bigmetal is one of the most commonly known materials to look extremely ugy like this by default
it legit feels like Roughen was designed for this
meager geode
If you want to go hunting for the original room file so you can update the tutorial to do lighting, great. It would probably be a lot easier to just make a new room.
Actually, someone could just recreate the room, nvm
fierce tendon
we could make a new guide which touches most examples
torn pivot
so, dont teach that to ppl who is starting
the tutorial is just for making a "region from the ground up" and not a "good looking region from the ground up" so I guess its purpose is to only show how stuff works and not how to make good looking rooms. that's stuff you learn once you get comfortable with the leditor (also hi jev 
)
fierce tendon
but what kind of room would help?
fierce tendon
the tutorial is just for making a "region from the ground up" and not a "good lo...
stills, teaching usage of props in layer 0 is not good
meager geode
the tutorial is just for making a "region from the ground up" and not a "good lo...
Right, but then new people won't realize that.
fierce tendon
is like teaching "hey, cogs and wheels are put on pipes like this"
and new ppl will be like, ok got it
torn pivot
well yeah actually there's no point in leaving a not so great looking room for the tutorial but it doesn't need to teach everything about style either
fierce tendon
its not about style
we dont need to teach like "you may want to use these tiles in combination with these to, bla bla bla"
you dont need to get in depth but. just do not show weird design choices every modder would discourage
torn pivot
yeah ok makes sense
fierce tendon
also there is literally an "architecture page" which says like, combinations of tiles and designs for existing regions
is pretty unupdated tho
also this doesnt teach how map management works
how sound management works
or how to even put spawns
i could make a room now that i have free times and take screenshots of the most important things
however it has to be a room which shows all in small detail
it has to have water to begin with imo, since is better to show the water editor
could have 4x1 pipes, considering they are some of the most important tiles AND they teach how multi layer tiles work
about geometry we clearely cant use all of it, wormgrass.. garbage worms... not really fitting together
and the room would look like absolute chaos
vernal kraken
interior or exterior?
fierce tendon
thats also something idk
they have a different usage of blackgoo
and shadows
so its very very dfferent
vernal kraken
Also will you cover dev tools like map and sound
fierce tendon
yeah
we could try to add a new room to an existing region
as a demo
it would also be cool to add a small description at the begining about "thinking what the room is gonna be"
what region theme sounds more apealing as a tutorial?
it could still have some more foreign elements to show more stuff ofc
also maybe a bad idea to teach new players to do geometry first 💀
since most of the time geometry is placed by holding G while placing tiles
it took me like 4 rooms to discover this was a thing and it was hell
also all this better to have images
also rooms constantly change in shape, we could add 1 final screenshot with like "filan details" showing stuff like, trash piles and minor changes
prime skiff
I can make some images at home
fierce tendon
im planning to do them 
prime skiff
Images should detail importance of positioning
fierce tendon
positioning?
vernal kraken
lmao I learned g to force place geometry and then forgot it
prime skiff
I feel new paragraphs could be added if they aren't there
Positions of dens, entrances and that
fierce tendon
guh, discord funny
prime skiff
Gone
fierce tendon
wasnt finished
prime skiff
Just like my connection
fierce tendon
ok so for screenshots:
-empty
-raw geometry (with shortcuts, creature dens and entrances)
-file management for addition
-1st render
-tiles (shows how to adapt basic geometry
-tiles (layers 2 and 3 and multi layer tiles)
-2nd render
-props (cogs, wire like props, maybe maybe stretch props)
-3rd render
-Hard effects (blackgoo, hang roots chains or wires and some individual plants usage)
-4th render
-Minor effects (Rust, slime, rubble and dead rainmoss)
-5th render
-Light editor
-6th render
-Final edits (overall minor improvements like effect balance, small trash piles...)
-7th render
-Devtools: effects and palletes
-Devtools: objects
-Devtools: map
-Devtools: sound
-file management: spawns
i think all these screenshots show all necessary
the issue is: the way this guide teaches in a "step by step" form, is very unnatural
thats not how you do rooms....
glossy coyote
impressive
fierce tendon
so its important to make it clear that you are gonna be constantly switching between these editors randomly
and that is not like a stair
not to mention sometimes ideas change a bit as the room is taking shape
oh, dry confused server/channel? 
glossy coyote
oh
prime skiff
Ignore that, I lost connection, deleted it, and it came back 6 minutes later along with my connection
fierce tendon
LOL
prime skiff
fierce tendon
I feel new paragraphs could be added if they aren't there
wait, so you were replying to us with this?
prime skiff
Yeah
fierce tendon
or not
oh cool
so... plans for a room...
industrial complex maybe?
industrial-like
prime skiff
Some messages take 3 or 8 minutes here
meager geode
not to mention sometimes ideas change a bit as the room is taking shape
Or change a lot and you may rework the room entirely.
fierce tendon
has a mix of everything
yeah thats better
i can start making the room now
how about making an scavenger treasury room?
those are heavy in decals, may prove a good tutorial
but often kinda simple layout tho
prime skiff
Swarm room
fierce tendon
that too
at least we agree industrial is the best region to choose?
has a bit of everything and a good pallete which doesnt fuse with blackgoo (im looking at you SI, SL and DS)
also has pipes, machinery...
a room similar to this in style?
has water, basic tiles and geo, use of individual large plants... grates..
just needs a bit less water and a more interesting background
also does it have to be a screen room?
2 screens also show camera menu
but is harder to screenshot
also i think rooms like this are good examples to prevent new players falling into rectangle shaped interior rooms
this room style also a very good example
also, do i really need to use the vanilla editor for the screenshots?
the community one is essentially the standard right now
prime skiff
What about LF?
fierce tendon
LF may have too complex tiling?
since hervesters are like
a+b+c
and has a very unique geometry
but also a good example in its way tbh
fierce tendon
interior or exterior?
vernal kraken
you should make an oracle room first tutorial room
prime skiff
Exterior
fierce tendon
maybe too complex for an introduction
also the unique "hole modules" LF has is pretty odd
and like, exclusive here
placid island
I think one of the newer su rooms is a good intro room for tiling. Like one of the ones not made by joar originally
prime skiff
LF_C01
fierce tendon
light editor changes will be minimal
inland relic
Personally I think IC is the most flexible region
placid island
SUs pallete is good because it’s basic, even if it doesn’t have a big difference between light and dark
prime skiff
That's the area I was meaning
fierce tendon
yeah i still think SU uses very little to be a good example...
we want to show a bit of everything
prime skiff
Teaches prop, geometry, decals, lighting, tiling
fierce tendon
also some good decal examples
prime skiff
Make a room like this, it's the best
fierce tendon
behold, the only time 
is used in game
i think is the only one
ok so, yeah this room is a good example
has interesting geo, variated tiles, good use of props, decals, effects...
meager geode
It might be a good idea to also mention warp mod in the tutorial.
meager geode
Warpmod is more convenient.
prime skiff
Since when
prime skiff
On the map?
prime skiff
That's warp.
fierce tendon
OOH
i didnt know warp had that interaction with the devtools
then yeah, mention it for sure
prime skiff
It was more recent
fierce tendon
so, a multi screen room?
prime skiff
Just single
fierce tendon
may be hard to fit that much in
any idea for the geo
it doesnt need to lead anywere tbh
some dead end like this sounds decent
prime skiff
Can't fit it in?
fierce tendon
fit what
prime skiff
Skill issue
fierce tendon
also, any idea what is this exactly?
idk in how many ways you can use it
ok im back, dont take a screenshot of fullscreen vanilla leditor
it crashees your computer
prime skiff
Skill issue
fierce tendon
should i intentionally leave the basic geometry kinda squarey to show the importance of trash piles later?
does this geo look like a good basic example?
i know the top left is kinda empty
i wanna add a big pipe there, but is multi layer, also a good example of how geo isnt written in stone
fierce tendon
why
fierce tendon
:v
i think is important to see how it works LOTS of ppl think you must place it on top of each other
glossy coyote
ok
fierce tendon
because in kae's video isnt explained properly
glossy coyote
Also you forgot the floor on the rightmost pipe.
fierce tendon
OH YES
CRIMES
should i stick the room to an existing unused connection?
also, should we explain how to do it assuming they use CRS?
CRS-less region mods should be ilegal
or we should just say how to merge
glossy coyote
also, should we explain how to do it assuming they use CRS?
yes
Except it's going to change after DP
ruby dragon
i remember i should finish the gifs i planned to do
but seeing how awful is to implement them i stopped it lmao
fierce tendon
i gess i could modify an existing room as part of the guide
ruby dragon
i adquired some hate to miraheze
fierce tendon
why
ruby dragon
read
meager geode
does this geo look like a good basic example?
Okay, you can have shortcuts lead to nowhere. Good to know.
ruby dragon
yeah i guess the do many limitations it haves
fierce tendon
im pretty sure other wikis are like that too
ruby dragon
and the fact i can't delete anything unless i ask to be deleted
like is so niche that i dislike it
fierce tendon
admin moment
ruby dragon
like i want to upload a better version of a gif or something i did but i can't because the old one still there
even changing names is not enough
and well i prefer keeping the same name for order and that
like it should at least delete the filed you uploaded
but no
fierce tendon
wait
the CRS page already shows how to create links to new regions?
one small issue 💀
my computer is in spanish
i cant do this step myself
fierce tendon
why...
why is taking the blackgoo from another room....
this room has no effects, nor light
why is the leditor like this 
ngl, is a mood killed when you try to do something but the leveleditor just wants to be a fucking moron 
fierce tendon
i need help
fierce tendon
OK it works
so i have a concern, usually showing default pallete is good to teach new players how to use palletes
however realistically... all regions use templates
so they will have some options by default
what should i do?
should i just deactivate it anyways and show it step by step?
fierce tendon
looks good enough to move to layer 2 and 3?
i just have 1 try at each, so... i wanna make sure they are good
meager geode
I think the lower parts of the walls look a bit flat, unless you're covering that later in the tutorial in which case it's fine.
Actually, I feel like maybe don't use random machines in that middle platform maybe.
fierce tendon
Actually, I feel like maybe don't use random machines in that middle platform ma...
im copying LF
meager geode
LF does that? Good to know
meager geode
Make sure to mention that certain creatures can pathfind over layer 2 geo
fierce tendon
layer 2 good?
i have set spots to put some props
tube, gear and wheel are good examples i think
also teaches how to put them in the layer behind and on front, which is a nice way to show sublayers
also have a planned cloth for layer 3
vernal kraken
can you do some floating hang roots
fierce tendon
also going to use erosion props on fences
thats 4 props shown how to use
-tube: shows how wire like props work
-cloth: shows how changing variation works
-erode: shows how anti matter props work
-cog and gear: shows how to use sublayers behind and in front of items
its all thought 
there is also a small empty wall behind for decals
inland relic
Personally I think it could use a photo more clearly showing every possible pipe configuration (shortcut, entrance, dragon den, whack-a-mole hole, garbage worm den, scavenger pipe, decorative pipe), what they do, and how close they can get to the edge of the screen.
fierce tendon
i cant make a room with everything
inland relic
yeah, but there should be a Pipe demo as a seperate image
fierce tendon
sure, but thats separate
maybe i could sneak some of these to also show the last kind of prop (stretch prop)
fierce tendon
its getting late, will finish the screenshots another day
prime skiff
Lazy.
fierce tendon
its called sleeping
prime skiff
Lazy.
fierce tendon
maybe could even do a gif at the end with the room progression, would look cool to have one of those arround
meager geode
Of just the renders?
fierce tendon
in what layer are cloth props placed?
i dont wanna get newbies used to bad practices
for a wheel in a layer 2 tile, should be sublayer 7, 8 or 9?
fierce tendon
this cloth is good?
i think its the right layer (15) for layer 3
clipping cloth my nemesis, i dont want to be the reason which makes newbies create even more clipping cloths 
fierce tendon
props done
should i do generation effects or paint effects first?
like, plants, wires, roots....
or slime, blackgoo, rust....
also, im making props before effects since props are usually affected by the effects, they are just "more complex tiles"
woven sorrel
I bet some extension out there gives you the 🔗 little icon for convenience
old message but clicking on the section in the contents box updates the url with the header, so you can just copy from there :D
stiff fern
Doesn't seem to work in the modding wiki, we might be missing an extension for that
stiff fern
ah! the index
woven sorrel
oh yeah haha
stiff fern
No, no, that one works, alright
woven sorrel
not so useful when editing a page but ;D
stiff fern
I was clicking the section itself, not the index
that's perfect for linking to resources, thanks
fierce tendon
ok, only light editor remains, unfortunely i feel like im not experienced enough with the light editor in exterior rooms to give a "good example" for new modders
any tips 
is this a good example to teach new modders the idea of mimicking similar architecture which could be casting the shadoss?
placid island
Make it less boxy, add some shadow trash piles in the corners
torpid condor
I think it's fine for getting the general idea across
although this has a noticeable ground shape to it
while yours is very flat down there
fierce tendon
well, my room is pretyt flat and that one is a 3 screens with a big thing in the middle, but sure, i will change it a bit
fierce tendon
better?
fierce tendon
the progression of the render images (there are leveleditor screenshots in between each) now time for devtools
1.geo
2.layer 1
3.layer 2
4.layer 3
5.props
6.heavy effects
7.lesser effects
8.light editor
i put heavy effects individually since they often must be specified for multiple layers unlike lesser effects
meanwhile, for lesser/paint effects is more important to specify the order in which you place each one matters
important lessons to learn
thorn mauve
Jev talking to themselves for 15 hours straight
stiff fern
Alright is this whole light editor and order of effects talk makes me think the one thing you're doing wrong is:
- you're creating a new room
What I think you should actually be doing is picking an "exemplar" vanilla room and remaking it step by step, 1:1 to the original
anything else and you're in "subjective land"
slime before plants or slime after plants? people will fist-fight over it
fierce tendon
images are acompanied by words
in fact i always put slime before plants, i just put it in this order as an example
also for recteating a vanilla room 1:1 is really pointless
since you can.... check the files
all the room leveleditor files are there
also i assume all this stuff is explained in more detail in the respective editor's pages
thorn mauve
ok
fierce tendon
im not gonna make 4 different screenshots for effects to show the difference between the orders
thorn mauve
fierce tendon
im not gonna make 4 different screenshots for effects to show the difference bet...
that goes for the individual editors in detail
otherwise there would be too many screenshots
the effect editors page could have those examples like showing the most obvious material which order matters (barnaces)
showing how different it can be
as well as showing how layers matters for heavy props, sky roots are a good example
you cant touch everything in detail with just images
thorn mauve
thorn mauve
I think screenshots for each individual effect is too much yeah, but I think black goo, rust and especially slime deserve a single image just for them
They are all really important effects
vernal kraken
you should’ve made your tutorial room a pitch black filtration room
thorn mauve
But yeah for order difference just like a single screenshot of a slimy vs no slimy plant should be fine
Some plants are better slimed, some aren’t
fierce tendon
I think screenshots for each individual effect is too much yeah, but I think bla...
the issue is that i dont want to influence how i use those
thorn mauve
You can always briefly change styles. For EXSU rooms I switched to their effects style
fierce tendon
i think we all use those in a different way
to like, put the most important effects as a "it has to be used this way"
i think its better to say "gently blanket the whole room in slime" and "place rust patches in spots which where it could make sense, such as machinery"
and let them test with it
i think the way i use rust is considerably different from the rest of modders
thorn mauve
Probably, I do blankets for both while vanilla does streaks and clusters
Personally I think a good guide will show different ways of doing it and let the user decide on the best
fierce tendon
i would rather let them experiment
i gess is subjetive
i just take the largest available brush and cover the whole room with a thin layer of slime, some extra slime in some spot, i do almost the same for rust but only in metal (pipes, machines, trash...)
thorn mauve
One valuable lesson I think is that slime can be very good for smoothing out transitions between certain tiles, like vent grate box corners or pipes entering machinery
fierce tendon
those more complex techniques would need some "design" page tbh
also, do i need o explain the object tab in detail?
what objects are worth teaching
aside from decals
is this a good screenshot for a graffiti? im still not really skilled at using them
thorn mauve
Is pretty good
Food objects, no spear stick on room borders, light sources for machinery or dark rooms, light beams, insect groups, idk
fierce tendon
im ngl
i sucka t using lightsources
i saw some amazing use of them as faint lights to help the room look better without being actually a bright light
but i just cant get that
also i want to show how light beams work, but again, i dont want new modders to get used to add light beams to every open sky room 💀
torpid condor
also for recteating a vanilla room 1:1 is really pointless
but what's the point of making a new room to demonstrate all this stuff when it's already demonstrated by the vanilla rooms?
the point is to make it more obvious
a talkthrough analysis of a vanilla room could be useful
torpid condor
because new players might not know how to look at a vanilla room
torpid condor
is just "not" literally a vanilla room
and... what's the point of this?
fierce tendon
because new players might not know how to look at a vanilla room
isnt "teaching" suposed to be the purpose of a wiki?
they should know how to look at vanilla files
is one of the best ways to learn
by looking at other's work
torpid condor
and is it not helpful to teach new players how to teach themselves?
torpid condor
I don't mean to turn this into an argument (I think it's quite unfitting for the channel,) but I see little functional difference between 'making a vanilla-like room' and 'remaking a vanilla room' Not to say I am against anything you're doing tho
thorn mauve
Keeping drama in #building
meager geode
Any chance of getting an IL hooks page?
fierce tendon
is this a good example for sounds?
i havent tested much with them
i made a similar composition as a nearby room
prime skiff
So what's happening with wiki nav?
It's a pain to go through some pages and isn't very intuitive
fierce tendon
bible writting time
hard heron
the holy bibble
vernal kraken
is this a good example for sounds?
this is a cool looking room, feels like a mix of SU and LF
fierce tendon
ok so
i have gained the motivation to start writting 
im gonna do it in a document first
hard heron
if we're revamping the level editor page then maybe it should have a bunch of "best practices" tips? stuff like "place platforms over the entrance to tunnels on the ground so players don't fall in" and "place poles below entrances/shortcuts on the ceiling so they're easier to enter"
small tips that would be helpful for people that are new to level creation, essentially
fierce tendon
of course
this must be planned well
better to split it in modules tbh
but also no need to get too dep into everything like how all tiles and props etc work
stiff fern
new modding coder icon 
modding wiki contributions skyrocket 📈
fierce tendon
yes
all planned by gar
tho, normal wiki role also works
ok checking this tutorial
first mistake is not teaching full numpad controls
moving 1 by 1 is a pain
also starting clearing all layers isnt.. necessary... interior rooms for example dont start by deleting all tiles
better to start by Planning the room
i think right here is a whole part missing the "planning"
could be the begining of setting up
but setting up only mention basic mistakes ppl do
also, no? you dont need to use underscore, you can writte it together, use caps or other symbols, whatever you put after the XX_ doesnt matter at all as long as is not a space
fierce tendon
ok, finished reworkin the "Setting up" section
the info is essentially the same
but better
Once you open the official editor for the first time. you will be greeted with a file select. It is advised to make a folder for your rooms to keep them organized before you open the editor. Use the arrow keys to navigate into that folder, and press N to make a new room. You will then be greeted with the editor’s main menu.
Saving, and name quirks:
Before we do anything, the first thing a room needs is a name, so let's save our room.
It is REQUIRED that you start all of your rooms names with a region prefix followed by underscore (XX_). You can check the Rain World, World folder for the regions in game
NOTE: If you save a room with an already existing name the previous room using that name will be replaced and completely lost, so when the region has a large amount of rooms, it's advised to keep an eye on room names and have backups.
Now it's time to start creating the room, we will be adding a new room to farm arrays so we will be using LF_ as the prefix for our room’s name, the name can contain letters (even with caps) and a wide variety of symbols, however is better to avoid using odd symbols to prevent unexpected issues, a common mistake is using the spacebar which DOES NOT work as a valid character for a room name.
Valid room name examples:
SU_test01
LF_myroom
SU_my_room
SI_MyRoom
CC_another_room
UW_lotsandlotsofroom15
SS_OddLyn4MedR00M+
HI_A04
The nomenclature used in vanilla by the developers consists in letters (A, B, C…, J…) to count the number of cameras the room has, followed by a 2 digits number to differentiate rooms from each other.
Shelters always use the letter S despite having 1 screen.
Examples of actual rooms in the game:
SU_A05 - small Outskirts room with 1 camera (A)
SU_B08 - larger Outskirts room with 2 cameras (B)
HI_C14 - wide Industrial Complex room with 3 cameras (C)
CC_D01 - tall Chimney Canopy room with 4 cameras (D)
SL_F01 - Shoreline room with 6 cameras (F)
UW_J01 - huge room in The Wall with 10 cameras (J)
These names were just chosen by the developers to keep rooms ordered and it's not necessary to use the same nomenclature in order to make rooms work, for example the vanilla room CC_H01 has 7 screens instead of 8 and the game detects it without problems.
(damn, discord explodes with all those _) fixed
how does it look? 
torpid condor
it is not required that you start room names with XX_ tho; it's good practice and it certainly should be treated as a rule (unless you're trying to do something funny like have 3 gates between the same 2 regions,) but especially for a wiki you probably shouldn't say things that are incorrect
fierce tendon
i just tried to make a room without the prefix and it exploded essentially
torpid condor
I'd also be cautious of using _ in the actual roomname as that is the character the game uses to parse the sections, however I also don't think using such would cause any issues
fierce tendon
like, in this literal test
torpid condor
i just tried to make a room without the prefix and it exploded essentially
you did it wrong, then. Probably put the room in XX\Rooms I bet
fierce tendon
I'd also be cautious of using _ in the actual roomname as that is the character ...
anything before the first _ seems to be what the rooms look for that
torpid condor
anything before the first _ seems to be what the rooms look for that
nah it's just string[] = String.Split(roomName, '_')
However, except for with gates, I think the string is only ever read in its entirety or the first section? but it still makes me nervous
fierce tendon
i called my room Demo_Room and it appeared glitched in farm arrays as Room with no connection
then added LF_Demo_Room and it appeared properly as Demo_Room and the room was properly connected
fierce tendon
it is not required that you start room names with XX_ tho; it's good practice an...
well, that info WAS already in there
so the wiki was already incorrect to begin with then
torpid condor
the wiki has a few incorrections
fierce tendon
"few"
torpid condor
like the world file page says you can add the {mean} tag to king vultures
but it's only read by lizards
fierce tendon
why dont you help me wording this then? you said you wanted to help and didnt know with what
fierce tendon
oh
fierce tendon
maybe I could tomorrow
sure 
we must really take care of this page
the better this page, the less obvious questions we get in #modding-dev by ppl who just start
this page should be more self sufficient
hard heron
will the modding wiki have anything regarding the community editor? i'd like to know the difference in function to the vanilla one, as I haven't used the community editor yet (and i'm not even sure where to find it)
winged rapids
Only if people who know how to use the community editor want to write wiki pages about it
And that's only useful if it's been made public yet (I can't remember if it has)
@glossy coyote hi, if you could clarify the status that would be great
torpid condor
#mod-releases message
it was made publicly available a few weeks ago
fierce tendon
the acurate values for these are 10 tiles for 1 and 30 for 3 right?
like, "increases" and "increases even more" arent exactly the best words to use in a wiki 💀
also important to point out that it will render the camera you have chosen first, then go back to the normal order, unless it was the last camera, in that case it will render just that camera since it detects the last camera was rendered
vernal kraken
fierce tendon
ALSO
this is wrong?
im pretty sure garbage worm holes are straight put on the floor
no shortcut entrance
vernal kraken
also important to point out that it will render the camera you have chosen firs...
what does first camera mean
fierce tendon
first camera?
the one you chose to render first
also maybe worth pinting out that is important to put a platform on the entrance so the slugcat doesnt fall in
also the 3 screenshots show almost the same
does this image explain it better?
or garbage worm holes are directly on the surface?
meager geode
Can whack-a-mole holes not have shortcut dots? Also, I think the worm holes need to be directly ontop of solid geo
fierce tendon
the wack a mole holes can have entrances yea
but since there is some odd teleport cooldown it acts a bit hmhmhm
but yes, its possiblle
meager geode
Also, maybe put a 3rd one to show that there can be an odd amount and they'll still work.
inland relic
👍
Can you also describe what each one does?
It took me a while to figure out what Whack-A-Mole holes do, and I would imagine a lot of people don't know about decorative pipes.
Also, it would be nice to have a similar image where everything's placed as close as possible to the screen border, to show the limitations of that.
fierce tendon
also made the same for bad examples
fierce tendon
also a bit odd to not explain shit about how they work and simply sending you to the bottom of the page
torpid condor
does this image explain it better?
tbh this image is pretty busy visually, which makes it harder to read
yes, it demonstrates everything concisely, but it comes at the cost of how easy it is to read
separating the elements into a few different pictures will help the readability imo
...or within the single picture, changing the layout to something more readable might help
fierce tendon
separating the elements into a few different pictures will help the readability ...
adding multiple images to a wiki is hell, they will start scrolling down and mishsaping everyhthing
also considering each one has a description, it isnt hard to know what to look at
torpid condor
I know what all the elements are and I still have trouble reading it!
it's not the clarity of information that's a concern, but it's layed out so cluttered that it's harder to focus on one specific element
torn pivot
labelling the image could work maybe?
inland relic
I was just about to suggest that
torn pivot
torpid condor
or maybe turning it into a gif where only one element is added at a time? might be weird tho
fierce tendon
idk why the modding wiki doesnt have a single labelled image
other than
1
2
3...
inland relic
or maybe turning it into a gif where only one element is added at a time? might ...
But then you have to wait for the thing you wanted to know about to show up in the gif 
torpid condor
true, so probably a bad idea
meager geode
I think maybe a few separate images could work. One with just shortcuts and no entrances to show off how to connect them, then one with entrances and such.
You also don't need bad examples if the good examples are comprehensive, IMO.
torpid condor
I think bad examples are still helpful tho, especially the most common ones
because you need to show the negative in order to clarify where a pattern ends
fierce tendon
main behaviour for each one at the bottom, how crossing shortcuts to the right, how connections can be left without a destiny to the left and how shortcuts can go through the air in the middle, the others are examples of how each one can be put with or without entrances
as long as showing in ceiling and walls
placid island
also considering each one has a description, it isnt hard to know what to look a...
“G”
torpid condor
*considering each one will have a description (that you are going to write)
fierce tendon
also made the same for bad examples
for the negatives, bottom is how crossing the barrier breaks the level and how to NOT use garbage worms, to the left is how incomplete entrances look, in the middle there is an example of how making the shortcut go arround the entrance breaks it, to the top is examples of how shortcuts with many destinations look, to the right is a reminder to not confuse both Ws with each other and how a triple connection is a horrible idea, and to the bottom right how random tiles floating arround can break the level
so about this:
shortcut entrance should explain how the slugcat can fall into the ones placed on the floor and how its reccomended to use a platform.
shortcut entrance should exmplain how they can cross and be placed in air of ground, also how they are optional and entrances can lead directly to the destination letters
dragon dens and scav holes are pretty simple
wackamole holes should explain that its possible to place as much as we want and they are all conncted together, and how the creature takes a short time to come out of the chosen exit once the pipe starts glowing
garbage worm dens are straight wrong
"shortcut entrance
Places the entrance of a short cut into the room, these must be fully surrounded by ground except from the entrance side and the exit will always be aiming in the oposite direction of the entrance.
When placed on the floor they will count as air and the slugcat will fall into them, so its adviced to put a platform in the entrance instead of air in this case"
fierce tendon
"Short Cut
Places a short cut's travel dot. These can connect two short cut entrances together or connect into a specific entrance or den variation. They can also not lead anywhere, in which case the shortcut entrance will simply be blocked.
Short cut dots can cross with each other in a + pattern and each path will always continue forwards"
"Dragon Den
Places a creature nest. These hold the creature assigned to that den in the region's World File"
"Entrance
Used to connect with another room. These can be used by Slugcat and most creatures to travel across a region, the 2 rooms connected by this entrance its determined in the region's World File"
"Scavenger Hole
Allows scavengers to spawn or travel to this room as they wander through a region.
Since scavenger use offscreen dens, all the Scavenger Holes will share the same pool of scavengers"
"Whack-A-Mole-Hole
Allows creatures to travel around a room by "teleporting" between these holes. There is no limit to how many holes can be placed in the same room and they are all connected together.
When a creature enters one of these holes and selects a new destination there is a short period of time in which the shortcut segment glows, so they are often used without Short Cut dots."
""G" (Garbage worm den)
Unlike the rest of dens, its not attached to a short cut entrance. Instead they are simply placed in the ground tile where we want the Garbage Worm to spawn"
are these explainations alright for the wiki?
meager geode
Are you sure its an air tile and not a solid tile for the worm holes?
fierce tendon
i remember an image mray used to post
lemme check
a vanilla room
nope, is on the ground
vernal kraken
also made the same for bad examples
make one with a slope next to it? thats a common mistake i see
fierce tendon
i never saw it
also the editor doesnt let you put slopes there
unless you put it after the slope
vernal kraken
i usually do geo and then add entrances after if it is a more natural room
fierce tendon
better
oh wait
i cut them
i have added poles to the top left and removed most pointless ones
fierce tendon
why cant i edit the wiki 
glossy coyote
skill issue
vernal kraken
wikiless
fierce tendon
my account is linked to a valid email adress
oh wait, why this isnt bt default 
ok i can edit now
how does the table look?
meager geode
It looks good, though I thought you were going to mention semi-solid platforms over ground entrances?
meager geode
*advised
fierce tendon
a bit less stretched
also i hate the tips and tricks section, this whole info could be put in better spots instead of randomy saying "go down to read tips and tricks"
meager geode
I'd reword it to say "since placing them requires a hole in the geometry, the player and other creatures can fall into floor entrances or have difficulty getting out. To prevent this, you should place a platform that is flush with the floor."
fierce tendon
i think thats overkill
and kinda harder to understand
also again, entrances work without the platform, it simply is annoying so you cant really put it as a "you must"
meager geode
But I'm not putting it as a requirement for the entrance to work.
How about "since placing them requires making a hole, it is recommended to use a platform above floor entrances to prevent the player and creatures from falling in."
I think that saying that they count as air when placed in the floor is confusing, because it implies that they only count as air when placed in the floor, which is not true.
fierce tendon
creatures falling into it is not an issue
since pathfinding gives them a clear path
but yeah i gess
better
meager geode
I have seen multiple occasions of a creature struggling to get out of one without a platform, though.
fierce tendon
ok
so
should i save this small change?
or for some reason is better to do it all at once in a single page rework?
no answer so im saving it
should i replace the 3 current images with these 2?
should i upload the 2 new images and remove the previous 3, or replace 2 of those 3 images with updated ones?
idk if is a good idea to have abandoned unused images saved running arround
wtf
wiki had a stroke, but maybe not a good idea to have joke files running arround anyways
also, i had no idea one of these was a gif
reminder that gifs must be below 12.5million megapixels or else they will not run
lenght x width x frames
well, main rework is done
im saving this 
its enough for today
stiff fern
bless
fierce tendon
i havent worked on the bottom section yet, so it may be lacking some info or repeating stuff
feel free to keep editing it yourself while im out
in fact the text describes images which are no more
fierce tendon
ok, its time to rework this
stiff fern
short cut
fierce tendon
first "This gif presents several examples of properly linked short cuts." this gif is no more
thorn mauve
long cut
fierce tendon
is there any common mistake im missing? A list of common mistakes include:
-Short cuts going outside of the level bounds, anything out of the white frame won't be loaded in game.
-Short cut entrances placed directly on the surface.
-Short cut entrances with short cut dots on any side which isn't the one facing the opposite direction of the entrance.
-Creature dens or room entrances randomly floating in the room disconnected from everything.
-Placing Garbage Worm dens connected to an entrance like the other dens
prime skiff
Dots having a gap
fierce tendon
i think thats pretty easy to spot tho
like, i dont see ppl in those cases asking "why doesnt this work!!!!"
fierce tendon
i love the language in the modding wiki
fierce tendon
ok a lot of this is already in the table lol
uhh, why cant i make them appear listed?
they appear on a line
wiki ignores this
worldly lava
(You can put two line breaks, or add a <br> tag at the end of each line)
prime skiff
winged rapids
wiki ignores this
try * instead of -, and you should have a space after each *
winged rapids
Np
fierce tendon
also, im saving these for later
prime skiff
Will navigation be changed at some point?
I feel it’s a bit difficult to find some pages
winged rapids
do you have anything specific in mind
I agree, but I've been swamped with other stuff recently
torpid condor
since I'm not familiar with wiki editing, I'm going to start by editing some small details on a few pages
not sure if there's an approval process for changes, and the trello seems mostly focused on migration
winged rapids
no approval process
mediawiki flags edits made by normal users as "not patrolled" in the recent changes log (public), and they remain like that till someone with appropriate permissions marks it as patrolled
it doesn't affect the publicity of the edit though, it's just a moderation tool I guess
woven sorrel
repeat of question asked in main channel- would you guys prefer a logo with more dropshadow?
feel like a little angled shadow can make logos stand out a little more, look less flat :o
woven sorrel
Will navigation be changed at some point?
the main wiki has some good navboxes you could snaffle for the main page and stuff :)
rotund matrix
be aware that that template has a parent template (Template:Navbox i believe) and that will need to be imported as well for that one to work
loud lichen
i think every second modding meta-project has ADHD
this wiki included
brief periods of hyperactivity inbetween months of
winged rapids
Reminder that there are some resources on the wiki about the changes to making mods that will be coming in... Approximately 31 minutes. Thanks to the folks that have worked on that so far
And another reminder that this means some of the info on the non-downpour pages is going to be incorrect
surreal turret
Reminder that there are some resources on the wiki about the changes to making m...
Would you happen to know which pages changed?
winged rapids
The downpour migration pages were added a few months ago
Afaik there have been no major updates on the wiki since then. Pages written prior to downpour release (not including the downpour ones) are likely to be outdated
surreal turret
Wait, so are mods still made the same way or are we awaiting more information?
The arena maps I made seem to have dissapeared and I can't add them back
So something must have changed
winged rapids
I don't know about arenas - I'd suggest you check the downpour pages on the modding wiki
winged rapids
Gonna need a Trello for the Trello at this rate
Todo
- tidy Trello
- correct path for HOOKS- reference
- make it clear that onmodsinit etc are hooks and give example on how to use one
- perhapsibly link dual's template repo
The big one:
- merge downpour info into main info
I have some time this week so I'm hoping to at least get started on some of it
empty vale
torpid condor
it's for the modding wiki (notice that this is the modding wiki thread)
winged rapids
Yes
My plans of "this week" have been foiled
Since I am currently not in a position to port my mods (spoilers moment)
winged rapids
@maiden osprey thoughts about linking the csproj in your testmod template from https://rainworldmodding.miraheze.org/wiki/Code_Environments#csproj_structure ?
winged rapids
I've added a 1.9 todo list to the trello
(invite link reminder https://trello.com/invite/b/uajv3uYM/0ead19f09d5005f1e7a1e1e84dcf4327/to-miraheze )
maiden osprey
<@303617148411183105> thoughts about linking the csproj in your testmod template...
you can do so
I would recommend tearing out the 'Creating a Project' section, it tells you the wrong thing before the right thing. Replace it with 'use dotnet new' or a link/zip of TestMod
winged rapids
Sure
glossy coyote
look into this channel: #1088556360100220938 message
chrome kite
so uhhhh,
turt kinda wanted to add his test-region as a file
honestly should just ask him to ask this question
winged rapids
?
chrome kite
he has a test region that is a good demo for how to set up your own regions
and i think he wanted to add it as a file onto the wiki but was not sure if that was allowed
winged rapids
It should be hosted somewhere else, and a link to it can be put in an appropriate place on the wiki
chrome kite
ah alright