politics

[urban vector]

Like, yes, they both suck but it's pretty bloody clear which one is worse

[blazing junco]

One is worse, both should be tried for war crimes, do you agree?

[urban vector]

Yes, which is literally essentially what I was saying...

[vast phoenix]

aight so we agree, no need to get heated

cool off y'all

[urban vector]

who is getting heated?

[blazing junco]

Therein lies my point that both sides harbor war criminals and both are equally responsible for killing innocent civilians. Therefore neither are good.

[urban vector]

Yes... which I also said

[vast phoenix]

nevermind just wanted to step in but i guess I didn't need to

[blazing junco]

So you guys should try becoming a multi party system :D

[urban vector]

Equally responsible for a crime doesn't mean they are equally bad

[vast phoenix]

well yeah that's what we mean

[urban vector]

good, glad to hear it

[vast phoenix]

lesser of 2 evils would be the better choice but if you can, choose neither of them

[blazing junco]

Yeah. I just feel bad that you guys are locked into "which one's the lesser war criminal?" in your elections

[restive seal]

Love to! How? You kinda need to split both the existing parties or the non-split one will hold power.

[blazing junco]

Start with making your media not talk about only two political parties and making them give air time to third parties, for one.

[mystic ermine]

Easier said than done

[blazing junco]

And not a few second ads. Make third parties as big a deal as the two big ones.

[mystic ermine]

at the end of the day, media is private business which is in it for one reason and one reason only

They're not gonna like, toss one of their major sources of being able to balance the way out

[restive seal]

We need a third viable party first though. Libertarian's closest to being a viable one. Green is not viable. Can't promote parties that nobody's going to vote for

[mystic ermine]

brexit, polexit is potentially on the cards, etc

[blazing junco]

Do you have progressive third parties?

I don't know much about your makeup, but give air time to them for example

[mystic ermine]

Issue is finding the balance between progressiveness

[vast phoenix]

where I live the same party has been ruling for like 50 years

[mystic ermine]

Like, is there even a level of progressiveness which would be able to win the progressives and those who feel a bit, "we don't wanna put our whole foot in but may jam a toe in to test the temperature"

[blazing junco]

How about a party that taxes your 1% of the 1% more?

Like, that actually does it, and doesn't just "pretty please we promise".

[mystic ermine]

I mean, for the most part, the 1% doesn't care

[vast phoenix]

on one hand they're actually oddly legit and win majority of the votes like every goddamn election somehow but on the other they really don't want to give up their position

[blazing junco]

All parties(including third parties) being on an even playing field ought to make them actually implement changes

[mystic ermine]

Like, yea, there are some who'll move around, but, lets face it, most of the 1% are skilled in keeping their money away from the taxmans perogitive

I don't think that taxing speculative property is a good idea, especially as it creates a lot of nuance around paying tax on something which doesn't have the cash there on the table

But, I mean, the tax book needs throwing out

Like, does it not say a lot about the tax systems around the world that companies literally pay teams of people a shit ton of money every year in order to save taxes?

[deep ravine]

They are taxed pretty heavily. The top 1% accounts for more of the taxes then the bottom 90% (in the US at least)

Besides, that would probably turn into a second left party. A more moderate party seems more viable.

And you can’t really start a party on one ideal. That doesn’t pull in votes

[blazing junco]

What can't you buy with 1 billion that you can with 2 billion?

[deep ravine]

10 private islands

in all seriousness, that isn't a logical argument

"They don't need the money, they have enough" preludes to a classless society to me. I can't see those working out.

[mystic ermine]

economies are complex, and given that money is what drives people, that's shamefully what is behind a lot of innovation

[blazing junco]

Which makes more money. Then what?

What are you going to do with all this accumulated wealth?

[mystic ermine]

Don't get me wrong, the government tosses a lot of cash into companies, for better or for worse, for fuelling innovations, e.g. the EV, green energy, shit like NASA, which moved us forwards a lot, and, shamefully, I don't see another system which would basically just keep grabbing more and more money from those at the top, especially as those are often the people who sink a lot of cash into some of this stuff by taking risks at firms

Well, that's one of the complexities but a lot of wealth is basically speculative

[blazing junco]

Invest it into more innovation? We've got a few billionaires doing that, but the majority aren't.

[mystic ermine]

Do you tax people for just owning stuff worth money in some capcity?

[blazing junco]

Ok, what can't you buy with 2 billion that you can buy with three?

[mystic ermine]

Okay, but, how do you tax it in a way which still allows people, even if unrealistic for most, to make their way up the ladder knowing that good will come, rather than just all the work they do leading to taxes?

and the joy is as with all stuff is that the figures at which "they should pay" always change

[deep ravine]

I suspect that people in the upper middle class get the butt end of the stick right now. In that range, you are working your butt off in a high paying job, but get taxed a lot for it. Probably makes those people angry.

[mystic ermine]

I mean, bernie is a good one for this

"the millionares and the billionares!"

oh, wait, er... I mean, "the billionares and the trillionares!"

[blazing junco]

How about just start with the billionaires?

Does anyone need 10 private islands, even if for leisure?

When is it enough material things? Never?

[dark crystal]

here in Portugal we've got a public, state-funded TV channel (besides the private-owned channels, obviously), which in my opinion works to counterbalance the fact that private channels are only in for the money. I figure the US has nothing similar, though, right?

[mystic ermine]

The sad part is that we're materialistic and that just puts in the fear of the sinking bar

[blazing junco]

I doubt Jeff Bezos can't buy something with his billions that he could with more billions.

[mystic ermine]

it's not exactly a trivial issue, and these people don't have as much cash as you'd think in their bank accounts

that would be stupid

as I said, if you really wanna fix this, you need to throw the tax book out

[blazing junco]

They have enough that they don't need to worry about cash for the next six to seven generations of their families, perhaps even more

[mystic ermine]

most of their cash is in speculative "goods"

[restive seal]

If you're in a high paying job you're making a ton of money and can't possibly have a real reason to get grumpy about taxes because you're making a ton of money. If you think they're going to make less than a lower paying job because of taxes you misunderstand how tax brackets work.

[mystic ermine]

that's how they get around taxes

Well, one of the major aspects of saving cash on taxes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2021/06/24/heres-how-much-money-jeff-bezos-has-reaped-from-selling-amazon-stock/?sh=6412ffaf389a

[blazing junco]

Tax them on it too, then 🤷‍♂️

[mystic ermine]

The issue there is that you're basically taxing people on cash that isn't in their pockets yet, so determining how to tax it gets complex

How do you tax something in which the value of constantly changes?

[foggy fern]

Tax capital gains as income

[brisk cradle]

https://mobile.twitter.com/BL_Balthaser/status/1448687188636491777

Benjamin Balthaser (@BL_Balthaser)

It’s risky to attribute the growing strike wave to a single cause, the US’s grotesque mismanagement of the pandemic. But I think a lot of what an EMT said at a DSA mtg last year: “when you realize your boss will kill you, it changes yr relationship to work”

Retweets

5943

Likes

25035

Twitter · Oct 14, 2021, 4:28 PM

Just wanted to share this because I agree 100%

[foggy fern]

Boss was either willing to kill you for $ or fire you the minute you couldn't give them $

[deep ravine]

I just meant that you step up a tax bracket or two, but are still working. There is a range between middle and upper where I think you kinda get the butt end of both sticks. You still have to work hard, yet are taxed at higher rates.

[restive seal]

Once you break 100k, other than huge cities, you're doing fine and tax on stuff past that is silly to care much about.

[vast phoenix]

I doubt it's solely just cash that drives people, politics and economics aside

[urban vector]

joe rogan

who tf was calling him a nazi anyway

[blazing junco]

probably people who are very emotional about anything and everything

[smoky hedge]

"someone from antifa"

[urban vector]

is this the made up enemy making a comeback so soon 😅

.

[smoky hedge]

All I was trying to say is that someone cannot be from Antifa - It is not an organisation - It literally is a shortened label to say someone is "anti-fascist"

[urban vector]

stand by what i said 🤷

[smoky hedge]

It's common for conservative people to refer to Antifa as an organisation in order to paint a picture of something being substantially more organised and targeted than it is

Realistically what happened here is, some random person said something

[mystic ermine]

It's not an organisation in the sense of like, there is a singular person at the top in charge, but, it's basically a charter with many different groups of people organising under the name

[smoky hedge]

I know a lot of people who organise, and there are basically organisations that are not "anti-fa", but will push anti-fascist ideologies by using anti-fa branded stickers etc

Eg, where I am there's a group of a name that I won't say for their safety, but they use the term anti-fa in their stickers and posters purely to refer to an anti-fascist ideology

Isn't that like the literal definition of sympathising? You're saying that while they did something horrible, they're still deep down people who were led astray

[urban vector]

all of those in charge of concentration camps?

like, we had an entire massive court case about the whole idea of if they were to blame for their actions, and they were

unless you disagree with those trials? i mean.. that would be a bizarre position to take

[near glen]

I always laugh when I hear people bringing up the bad bad antifa

If you have an issues with me expressing anti fascist viewpoints, maybe you should ask yourself if you are a fascist

In Germany the conservative party was always pushing about the danger of the left, when the right wing extremist where actively executing politicans

But those are isolated cases

The Nazis in the army are also isolated cases

And the Nazis in the police force too

Don't look at these isolated cases, look here, big black evil antifa!!!!

(and before you say something, of course there also is violence on the violent left, but at least here in Germany statistics show that that violence isn't against politicns and stuff but property, and far less cases. Police lists stickers as vandalism to get the statistic to look how they want it to 😂)

German source, but here you can see, last here 22k crimes police thought came from the right extremist and 6k from left extremist, Nazis killed one, left nobody, Nazis asuslted 850, left 400 (I guess police?)

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/4721/umfrage/vergleich-der-anzahl-von-rechten-und-linken-gewalttaten/

So yeah, violence is bad, statistically the right does it more, so this antifa bullshit is just distraction

[mystic ermine]

Nobody has an issue with the viewpoints that facism is bad, so, that statement is just completely disingenious

[near glen]

To me saying the evil organization antifa is as stupid as saying the evil hacker 4chan

[mystic ermine]

The thing is that there are groups/charters which organise under the antifa name

it's like "BLM"

Many people agree with the expression but not the organisation behind it

[near glen]

Idk about BLM, but antifa doesn't have a organization behind it

There are groups that fight against Nazis and for anti fascist causes, but there is no bigger organization behind everything

[mystic ermine]

there are many groups which adopt "antifa" as their charter name

calling it an organisation is a flawed premise of tryna dumb down the general organisation there to make it scarier than it is, but, to say that there is no organisation in between people would be false

[near glen]

Well yes

But like, in Germany, there is one fascist party in parliment, and all other parties are anti-facist. The other parties don't have one big organization, they have individual parties that fight for similar causes, against that one anti-facist party

Like, Nazis bad is like one of the few things they can all agree on

[faint radish]

Yeah, it’s exactly like this. I’m def not “pro-fascist” but I’m not down with what “antifa” usually means, using violence or intimidation, or threats of violence to try and force universities to “cancel” someone, or bookstores to not sell a book, or anything like that.

[urban vector]

Who do you think "antifa" generally tend to target with the intimidation and violence, and what sorts of measures and actions do you reckon this ideology they target tend to use?

[faint radish]

Really, it doesn’t matter, if you are using intimidation and violence, it’s not ok.

[urban vector]

Well... okay... I'm sure some soldiers in a certain war a while ago would disagree with you on that one but sure :')

It's just the paradox of tolerance all over again

[faint radish]

? How are those similar at all?

You just said “ideology”

If these people they target are literally being violent to them, then you’ve got the right to defend yourself. That was is a political tool (as all wars are) that (is supposed) to not target civilians

You might disagree with that, but I don’t think many soldiers who fought would say they did or should go out and kill stop because they were giving a radicalizing speech, it’s probably that they were organizing an attack, or whatever.

And you can completely disagree that that’s what happened in that war, and think that’s bad, but in no way does that mean it’s then fine to be violent towards people, and indirectly, other people’s property

[urban vector]

What do you think the "fa" in "antifa" stands for?

[faint radish]

Well fascist

[urban vector]

And then a follow up question, what ideology do you think those who fought in WW1/2 were fighting against?

[faint radish]

Lots of fascism

[urban vector]

There we go

[faint radish]

So what? Any person who epouses any fascist idea can be attacked? That’s not how this works

[urban vector]

Do you think antifa is some sort of militia?

[faint radish]

The fascists people were fighting in WW2 were killing tens of millions of people.

Milo Yiannopoulos (who’s very annoying and out to stir up this stuff) didn’t kill anyone

And most likely, neither did any other speaker, or book author, or whoever else antifa is protesting, peacefully or otherwise.

[urban vector]

Right, so antifa killed Milo Yiannopolous?!

[faint radish]

Totally fine with the peaceful stuff, I couldn’t care less, but I’m only taking about the instances were it turned not peaceful

What? No they attacked uc Berkeley in 2017 with Molotov cocktails, caused like $100000 damage

Because he was speaking there

[urban vector]

Ah, so I see what you're actually trying to say here - you're not against antifa, just against some people who cause damage to property in order to stop fascists being given a platform

[faint radish]

I said something quite similar to that wayyyyy back at the beginning. I’m not down with what “antifa” has come to mean usually when used in the media, or stuff like that.

But I certainly think fighting organizing (100% non violently) against fascist ideologies is a good thing

[urban vector]

So in the case where the only way to prevent a fascist from being given a platform is to get a bit rowdy and smash a couple of windows you'd rather they just sat at home and did nothing?

[faint radish]

They can protest it all they want. Just do it peaceably

I forget what the current jurisprudence in the US on public universities preventing certain ideologies from having a platform, but that wouldn’t extend to private universities at all. So you can protest the administrators of that private university (again peaceably) to not invite whoever

If public universities can’t dis-invite based on ideologies b/c of 1st amendment issues, then you can protest, but they won’t, and shouldn’t be dis-invited.

[urban vector]

So you're okay with fascists being allowed to have a platform if the only way to stop it is to break a few windows and hurt a brick wall or two?

[foggy fern]

afaik the only really organized antifa groups in the US are in Washington and Oregon where they are somewhat literally fighting a war against white supremacists

[blazing junco]

Such a gross misrepresentation of what happens

[faint radish]

I’m glad anyone who wants to protest anything is allowed to in public spaces, I’m glad anyone with any ideology can stand on the sidewalk and say what they want for whoever to hear

[urban vector]

So essentially, you're okay with fascists having a platform then?

[blazing junco]

You forget so quickly what the Nazis did to Jewish store owners in Germany.

[faint radish]

When it comes to public spaces, 100%. No one can or should be denied their right to free expression in a public place

[urban vector]

Wow okay then

[faint radish]

If such speech is to cause imminent, and when I say imminent, I mean literally right after, violence, then it can be stopped

That’s how the current jurisprudence on the 1st ammendment works when stopping speech that could cause violence

[urban vector]

Personally, I'm anti fascists having a platform, but I guess each to their own sure 🤷

[blazing junco]

I'm anti fascists having a platform and anti excusing rioting and looting to promote a message, whatever that message may be.

[faint radish]

I’m sorry you feel that way. That feel it’s ok to resort to uncivilized methods to prevent something that can be thwarted without the need for violence

[urban vector]

You can't say you're anti fascists having a platform if you're okay with them having a platform if it means a few buildings have to get their feelings hurt

It's just interesting where your priorities lie

[faint radish]

I don’t know what that means?

[urban vector]

Buildings can be rebuilt - lives cannot be untaken as a result of the spread of a harmful ideology

[blazing junco]

There was also a group of people in the early to mid thirties destroying "just buildings" to promote a message.

[urban vector]

And what was that message

[blazing junco]

A hateful message.

[urban vector]

Do you think it is comparable to the message of "let's stop those people"

[blazing junco]

I think it's fair to believe that if you start destroying buildings to promote a message of peace, you're no better than those you're going against.

Do you agree?

[urban vector]

No better than literal fascists?

No I don't agree that buildings and human lives have the same weight when destroyed lmao

[blazing junco]

Look at it from the lens of early thirties and you'll find that the "literal fascists" were also people looting and rioting to promote a message.

[urban vector]

Yes, that message being "i want to literally kill people for just being disabled or mentally ill or following the wrong religion"

If you think that is the same as "i don't want those people to do that" then I really don't know what to say..

[blazing junco]

Sure, but to them it was a message they believed in with conviction. Just as today we know that they were lunatics.

Point being - NOTHING should excuse destroying property of people, not messages of "peace", and not messages of vile hate.

Notice how I put peace in quotes there, because when you're actively destroying what could be people's livelihood, you're not all that peaceful, are you?

[faint radish]

Being facetious here:

I agree. Communism has taken so many lives over the years, directly or indirectly. I think political violence to stop the spread of this ideology is then justified.

[foggy fern]

It wasn't just the nazis doing that in the early 30s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion

[faint radish]

You can’t have some ideologies where it’s OK to be violent towards. I’m sure you can find countless examples of deaths “caused by the free market”, but it’s still not OK to go and bash up the NYSE to stop that spread.

[urban vector]

I mean if you genuinely believe that a few buildings carry the same value as human lives, then it still doesn't logically follow that fascists should be allowed platforms to spread their ideology (as that ofc leads to loss of life in the future anyway)

[faint radish]

I’m sure of any ideology it can be said it “killed people” right?

[urban vector]

Machine we're talking about literal fascism here

[faint radish]

Hell, religion has killed TONS of people

[urban vector]

Blimey

[blazing junco]

Do you believe destroying buildings will make the people affected believe in your message?

Or do you think it will only further radicalize them?

[urban vector]

I mean, it's stop the platforming of fascists, so yes

[blazing junco]

Same problem that the US was facing in the ME. Collateral damage turned into terrorists. 🤷‍♂️

You're not stopping shit with destroying buildings and people's livelihoods. You're just making them turn against you.

[urban vector]

Still not a bad as literal fascism in my book 🤷

[faint radish]

Another pretty glaring issue with being pro-political violence, is that you might think someone’s a fascist, but what if not everyone agrees with you? What if a majority disagree?

[blazing junco]

You're creating fascists.

You create fascists by destroying those people's livelihoods under the guise of anti-fascism.

[urban vector]

"Stopping fascism literally creates fascists"

[blazing junco]

You're not stopping shit omg

[urban vector]

Absolutely laughable

Was Milo allowed to speak unhindered?

[blazing junco]

You do realize that people will turn on your ideology if it involves destroying their livelihoods, right?

[urban vector]

No. So yes, something was literally stopped

Literal fascism you're all defending in favour of a few buildings here lmao

[blazing junco]

You're diminishing the purpose of "a few buildings". Those could be a person's livelihood

You're ruining lives and potentially stopping them from feeding their families

Of course they'll turn into those fascists you dread because you just waltzed in with banners of peace and destroyed everything they have

The fact that you can't come to that logical conclusion is sad

[faint radish]

What fascist ideas was Milo spreading that night?

[urban vector]

What are you talking about idriz? Do you have any actual example of whole people's livelihoods being destroyed by antifa demonstrations/protests?

And no machine, I'm not getting into a discussion about whether or not Milo is a fascist

[blazing junco]

God, you're not going to make me go and get sources of people looting mom and pop shops, right?

[urban vector]

Yup

[blazing junco]

Yeah, I'm not interested because that shit's been settled for a while. We know that people rioted and looted small businesses, that isn't news

[urban vector]

Okay then

[faint radish]

Well wait, is he or not? Idk, I know very little about him. But that would seem to be key in determining if violence was OK against his platform or not.

[urban vector]

He is

[foggy fern]

Are you mixing up the George Floyd stuff with antifa?

[urban vector]

Advocates for ethnostates, also a pedophile as well

Banned from multiple social media sites multiple times

[blazing junco]

Antifa is not a centralized organization or anything of the sort, I do have a problem when people like Kezz excuse destroying small businesses under the guise of "fuck the police" and "peace"

and also "anti-fascism" lol

[foggy fern]

No no, I mean are you looking at the looting from the George Floyd/BLM protests and lumping that under "antifa"?

[urban vector]

Well I still don't know what small businesses have been destroyed on a scale enough to denounce the entire movement 🤷

[foggy fern]

antifa actions are mostly on college campuses, LA, and the Pacific Northwest

[blazing junco]

Nobody's denouncing the entire movement. But I am denouncing people who do loot small businesses, something which you defend because apparently it "stops giving fascists a platform"

[mystic ermine]

The BLM protests did attract some antifa groups last I knew

[blazing junco]

And yes, this

[mystic ermine]

But, I mean, some areas of the US practically went through a full summer of people around the BLM riots burning down streets of shops and such

[foggy fern]

Well, sure, but you're just trying to lump everyone together so you can demonize the entire movement

[blazing junco]

Please do provide evidence of me lumping everyone together so I can demonize an entire movement

[mystic ermine]

Theres the immigrants taxi which was burned too which was kinda funny in a sense but felt sorry for the person whos care that was

[blazing junco]

I'm denouncing looters and rioters, not Antifa as a whole.

[foggy fern]

I don't see a lot of looting or rioting with antifa stuff

[faint radish]

Is this saying you have to be pro-violence to be anti-fascist?

[urban vector]

No?

[faint radish]

I don’t think I or Idriz commented on the frequency of looting or rioting. Any is bad yeah? Doesn’t have to be a lot.

[foggy fern]

Although I suppose buildings in Portland get fucked up in the middle of the battles between antifa and the white supremacists and police but wait I repeat myself 😛

[blazing junco]

Any looting is bad looting.

[urban vector]

I mean, we weren't even talking about looting - when have antifa demonstrations/protests ever looted?

[blazing junco]

You can't change my mind on that. If you as an individual spread your message by looting and rioting, maybe you should re-evaluate whether or not what you believe is good in the first place(or in the case of antifa, if you're actually practicing what you're preaching)

[foggy fern]

Not a fan of looting, no

Burning shit down or breaking windows or whatever, suppose that depends on what it is

Although apparently the worst of that in Minneapolis was actually right wing accelerationists pretending to be BLM supporters

[blazing junco]

Please don't use the defense the trumpers used after January 6..

"It was actually just Antifa in MAGA gear!"

[faint radish]

Come on, we can’t live in a society where “it depends” if it’s OK to break someone else’s stuff. How does that not lead to more and more breaking of stuff. People don’t all think alike, how many people thinking it’s OK does it take before it’s OK?

[foggy fern]

No but really though https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd

By numbers most of it was almost certainly BLM folks but the worst of it was those folks

[blazing junco]

Nobody's arguing that far righters are fucking nuts

[faint radish]

@foggy fern your “it depends” comment, what’s your response to this message?

[blazing junco]

But that doesn't excuse the fact that rioters and looters on the left are also nuts

[urban vector]

I don't know why it's a controversial statement here to say "it's okay to break some stuff if you're stopping literal fascists"

[blazing junco]

Because you're literally doing what those literal fascists do

[dark crystal]

break fascist institutions then, not local businesses

[blazing junco]

^^

[foggy fern]

Well, yeah, which is why even though it was a boogaloo prick who did it I'm not upset the police station got set on fire

[urban vector]

Still waiting to hear when antifa protests have ever broken local businesses 🤷

[faint radish]

No that’s not OK either, political violence breeds more political violence yeah? It expands the “Overton window” if you will of what’s OK.

[foggy fern]

When they tried going after fascist institutions the federal government started disappearing them in vans though

Oh yeah, and did you see that shit about the cops in Minneapolis doing literal drivebys?

[blazing junco]

Yeah, guess the better alternative is to destroy small businesses instead, since you can't target fascist institutions without being disappeared.

[blazing junco]

Antifa alone? Dunno. George floyd protesters which also had Antifa participants? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/minneapolis-protests-business-looting.html

[faint radish]

Bad policing also breeds more violence. All the political violence everywhere that goes without a swift harsh punishment just shows more people it’s OK.

[urban vector]

I'm not talking about BLM, that's a whole other kettle of fish - there was a lot of anger in addition to opportunistic looting and people like those in the article amaranth linked

[dark crystal]

i was looking at this exact article rn

[faint radish]

So it should be curbed at every possible point. The Jan 6 rioters, anyone who smashed up buildings, whatever. It all needs to be curtailed pretty quickly

[foggy fern]

This is where the lack of any organized groups or membership makes the argument complicated

[blazing junco]

Ok, but there was antifa supporters who took part, are you willing to accept that or is it always some other scapegoat until you realize that Antifa is also not sunshine and rainbows?

[urban vector]

I'm also not talking about protests like that, I'm talking about actively stopping fascists from having a platform, which the Minneapolis protests weren't doing

[blazing junco]

You stop fascists from having a platform by shunning them, not by destroying random property

[urban vector]

I mean, I literally don't know why you are conflating two incredibly different events and assuming I blanket support both

[blazing junco]

You support rioting and looting to support a message against fascism

[urban vector]

I've been pretty clear that destroying a few buildings in the wake of actively stopping fascists from having a platform is what I'm okay with

[blazing junco]

Y/N?

[urban vector]

Never said looting

[foggy fern]

Going after institutions, statues, etc I'm okay with. Going after random businesses not so much. People not at all (not physically, anyway).

[blazing junco]

Oh, right, it's okay because the people who burn the buildings don't make money themselves.

[urban vector]

What?

Idriz can you actually read what I'm saying and the opinion that I hold

[faint radish]

Amaranth, how does that not do exactly what I said? Breed more violence if you’re saying it’s OK to attack some things.

[urban vector]

I can't defend against an opinion I don't hold

[foggy fern]

antifa action is mostly counterprotesting (and then fighting with) white supremacists and related groups anyway

[mystic ermine]

!ban @glass crag scam

[restive seal]

I WON THE BAN LOTTERY

[foggy fern]

Don't have a a good answer there, some things are worth fighting for

[restive seal]

Knocking down a statue doesn't threaten people's lives. Fascism threatens people's lives. Some of the messages in here look like they are prioritizing property over life and that feels like a common theme in right vs left discussions lately. Certain folks often twist isolated incidents into being the primary purpose of antifa, demonizing anti fascist beliefs, slowly pulling rational people into being pro fascist through being anti anti fascist.

[faint radish]

That’s just what I’m afraid of, if political violence against an ideology becomes more and more mainstream, I just don’t see how that doesn’t lead to a societal collapse. We have existing non-violent methods to prevent the spread of ideologies one finds abhorrent.

[foggy fern]

I wouldn't support going after legislators or anything related to that, as flawed as that system is nothing you accomplish there is going to make it better

[urban vector]

Which is the paradox of tolerance again machine

To breed and foster a tolerant society, you have to prevent/stop those who preach intolerance

[restive seal]

We have existing non-violent methods to prevent the spread of ideologies one finds abhorrent.

Yet pro-fascist ideology continues to spread in America. It's not being controlled well enough, and something has to be done.

[foggy fern]

I would prefer no violence but when you have a protest there is always violence because the police love to kettle and instigate so they have an excuse to crack skulls

[faint radish]

And that’s part of the problem too

[foggy fern]

And if you have counterprotests the police will eventually shove them in to each other

In the PNW both sides just plan for that now, they come with gear

And by "now" I mean since at least the 80s from what I've seen

Probably even before that

[faint radish]

Then do more, but not violently. It just encourages more violence. Encourage private platforms to ban such people, that’s had success. Violence can’t be the answer, or it will always be the answer.

It’s hard, and probably getting harder every day thanks to the new level of connectivity we have. I forget who, but someone said all the internet does is connect every idiot with every other idiot that shares the same ideas.

[urban vector]

That's just slippery slope again - if violence wasn't sometimes the answer, why do we have to resort to violence to stop those who preach and practice violence?

Yes, it would be great if we could just constantly talk the problems away, but that just isn't the case in the real world. Things aren't so black and white

[faint radish]

Violence is the answer sometimes, generally towards other bits of violence. But it can’t be answer to pure speech.

[blazing junco]

Yeah, if your violence is targeted to statues that represent fascism, fascist institutions, fascists in power, sure, but to ordinary stores? That's not cool.

[urban vector]

When has anyone here said they are pro looting

[blazing junco]

When did I say looting there

You're talking about the destruction of property and so am I, if you break a glass window of a mom and pop shop they'll still have to pay for it, no?

[urban vector]

Violence isn't targeted at stores, it's targeted at other things that spills onto the surrounding environment

[blazing junco]

Collateral damage, then?

[urban vector]

Sadly, things happen in cities and towns and not barren landscapes

If it's not specifically targeted, then yes, collateral damage sucks but sometimes can't be avoided in the heat of the moment

[blazing junco]

Okay. The collateral damage defense. Say, why do people get radicalized in the middle east? All the US does is bomb terrorists, SOMETIMES they hit civilians carrying water jugs, but that's just what should be expected in wars!

[urban vector]

Sorry what, why are we talking about bombings now?

Like, they literally do target hospitals and towns with those strikes... It's not a good defense if it's just a lie?

[foggy fern]

Some of it is people taking advantage of being in a big crowd with the police otherwise occupied to break shit because that's fun for them, some of it is incidental damage during conflicts with police or other groups, and some of it is because the police stopped them from reaching their target so they just lash out at whatever is around them

[blazing junco]

Because it draws a perfect parallel to your ideas. You wanna claim collateral damage is unavoidable to defeat fascism? You better be ready for the consequences that bite back when you create collateral damage.

[foggy fern]

Hard to say if most of it is that first one or that third one

[urban vector]

It really doesn't... You can't compare drone strikes on foreign soil to a guy accidentally missing a brick thrown at a nazi and hitting a window

Again, it's not all so black and white

[foggy fern]

Or the police blowing out a window with a beanbag gun when they miss hitting someone's head

[restive seal]

Just because multiple things are all "collateral damage" doesn't mean you can group together what they are, or their consequences, as being identical 😛

[blazing junco]

Exactly, it isn't, but you just threw a brick at a small store because you were aiming at a Nazi. You think the store owner will still like your message?

Collateral damage in ideological battles bites back in all forms, bax 😛

[foggy fern]

I think the blowback in this case is people looking the other way when the police coordinate with Patriot Prayer or shoot rock salt at people who aren't doing anything wrong

[blazing junco]

I saw that video. Genuinely thought it was about to be a cartel shooting video based on cops pulling up in a van and shooting

Disgusting

[urban vector]

I think it helps to just not look at everything in such a black and white way - there are obviously differences between US drone strikes and anti-fascist protests

[blazing junco]

Sure, but it also helps to look at the bitter side of the grey area, the one where people are radicalized by your collateral damage 🤷‍♂️

[foggy fern]

Police were getting away with shit like that anyway but I could buy an argument that they're more likely to get away with it since folks are upset about the vandalism

[urban vector]

Yes but there is obviously a difference between the scale of collateral damage between decades of drones strikes and a few one of protests, a tiny handful of which end up causing damage

[blazing junco]

A difference in scale? Yes. A difference in causing radicalization? No, not really. The only major difference is scale and the danger of radicalization.

The danger in the ME being literal terrorists, in the US being people who vote parties that lean towards people who are against whatever you vote for.

[restive seal]

But that tiny handful gets amplified by fox news to seem like it's happening everywhere all the time, and the right wing media's amplification results in fascism spreading.

[blazing junco]

Fuck Fox News and all their apparatus, genuinely couldn't sit through 20 minutes of listening to their "news"

[urban vector]

You're genuinely telling me you believe that they have caused radicalisation to the same effect?

[blazing junco]

I'm genuinely telling you I believe both radicalize people. But you can keep pretending the second part of my reply there doesn't exist 😛

[urban vector]

Right, is 10x bigger than 10000000000000x given some x?

[restive seal]

Right wing violence in the US is a threat though.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2021/domestic-terrorism-data/

[blazing junco]

Ok? Who's arguing this, exactly..?

[blazing junco]

Did you still not scroll up and read the second part of my reply? They both radicalize, one is infinitely more dangerous than the other, but they both radicalize

[urban vector]

We don't balance situations based solely on perceived negative impacts

[restive seal]

You said in the middle east the threat of radicalization is terrorist and the threat here is people voting, but there's also risk of violence here that you were missing in that statement.

[blazing junco]

Please read this reply as I've told you to.

I said this a while ago. I'm not talking about which one is riskier, I'm talking about the fact that they both radicalize, no matter the extent

[urban vector]

Yes, so when we see a potential negative, we also have to weigh up the potential drawbacks. Clearly, doing nothing hasn't worked and actively didn't work so this is something which, whilst it may have some negative, clearly isn't comparable to literal deaths and the promotion of an ideology which will continue to promote and cause more violence and death.

[blazing junco]

So you're calling collateral damage of protests OK because it doesn't radicalize as much as something else?

[urban vector]

I mean, essentially yes

[blazing junco]

I don't think I'd want to hedge my bets on how people will react to having their businesses trashed, but you do you

[urban vector]

When you take into account how tiny these instances of collateral damage are yes

[restive seal]

If the collateral damage doesn't radicalize as much as the thing being prevented...

[blazing junco]

I'm surprised with your confidence, because you literally have no idea how a person might react after having their business trashed.

[urban vector]

Again, when you take into account how tiny these instances of collateral damage are

[blazing junco]

IMO? Brawl fascists all you want, but don't aim at stores with. bricks 🤷‍♂️

[restive seal]

IMO the issue is right wing being able to amplify those tiny instances into something bigger. Stop that, and you drastically reduce the issue.

[urban vector]

So you're just saying "don't miss"? I mean yeah, but not everyone has 100% accuracy :')

[restive seal]

Folks wouldn't be talking nearly as much about these rare incidents if they weren't being amplified as something far bigger by the right.

[urban vector]

It's almost playing right into their hands to expend this much energy discussing such rare incidents 🤷

[restive seal]

Yep

[blazing junco]

Yeah, I guess so. My main point of the argument is don't aim for buildings that have nothing to do with your fight. Beat the shit out of fascists all you want

[restive seal]

But if you dismiss it, you only affirm in right leaning individual's mind that they are right.

[urban vector]

Good, I'm glad we're in agreement then idriz

[urban vector]

"what if the real fascists were the antifascists"

literal zero critical thinking here - it is not all so black and white

Sure, it's a very childish view of the world but sure

amazing

vocally fight a literal fascist?

why do i have to keep pointing out the paradox of tolerance

Average paper #politics moment - "i would go to dinner with a literal fascist"

Yes it does

[shy gulch]

why do i keep coming back to this channel

@ aiker pls delet

vomits profusely

humanity would progress 2 centuries into the future if #politics deleted

[urban vector]

I literally do not care for discussing if I have things in common with a literal fascist pedophile? What is wrong with you people...

[shy gulch]

bruv

[mystic ermine]

Many of us just think that casting humans, even if they have abhorrent views, into a system where the only mechanism for even dealing with them is making it socially acceptable to toss a brick in their face isn't a solution

[urban vector]

We are talking about literal fascists here

Just a reminder

[shy gulch]

my fear is spagetti

its vaguely terrifying

[urban vector]

the fascist sympathising continues...

[mystic ermine]

What's your proposal for solving the issue?

brick them in the face?

[urban vector]

My solution is not "let's sit down and get dinner and wonder what we all have in common"

I can tell you that much for free

[shy gulch]

if i become an authoritarian or fascist please brick me in the face asap

u have my express permission

[urban vector]

I'm glad

[shy gulch]

pack your bricks

:*)

[urban vector]

How is saying "I don't want to have dinner with a fascist" and "i would hit a literal fascist with a brick" displaying authoritarian tendencies

Do you know at all what the word authoritian means

[shy gulch]

hating fascism is so fascist smh

the amount of projection you do is honestly impressive

[urban vector]

Read the first part of the word authoritarian

Just type that out here

[shy gulch]

auth

kezz wasting calories typing on their keyboard with these kind fascist sympathizersfolks

its pretty funny how every time somebody has a discussion with me or kezz they just say "they dont care abt discussion, they just want to call us <names>" when the party in question is being <names>

[urban vector]

Yes auth

Auth as in Authority

Do you think me and vriend are authorities

read your own messages please

How can one show tendencies of an authority without being in any way shape or form an authority

[shy gulch]

"ᵢₜₛ cₐₗₗₑd ₐ ₛₑₙₜₑₙcₑ."

thanks for the lesson homie

what

[urban vector]

what?

Holy shit

[shy gulch]

LMAOOOO

KEZZ WE HAVE WON

[urban vector]

Blatent transphobia now from someone who never spends time outside of this channel

How is this shit allowed

You literally said "you are acting like the trans people in this video" a video of a rabid transphobe

[shy gulch]

CHAD (MASSIVE GENITALIA) Jordan Peterson DESTROYS lib trans people with FACTS and LOGIC

homie you shut down your own conversation when you put that dumb ass shit in here 💀

[shy gulch]

(with subtitles)

huh

bear what lmao

[urban vector]

what?

[shy gulch]

i dont care

what does this have to do with anything

[urban vector]

Can you stop making this generalisations and comparisons between trans people just because we are all trans

[shy gulch]

this is literally the same as "im not racist I have black friends"

im dead lol

[urban vector]

No, I don't have interest in finding common ground with people all the time

I genuinely have better things to do in my life

[shy gulch]

im not interested in finding common ground with fascists tbh

not really my jam

[urban vector]

Who is drowning out free speech

I'm not giving Peterson views

[near glen]

Friendly reminder that this is a no free speech zone

Cause we have rules

[shy gulch]

bruv

[near glen]

Am not reading any of this bullshit, my brain is already mushy

[shy gulch]

please dont

save yourself the waste of braincells

[near glen]

It you find individual messages in violation of the rule /modmail

Am gonna mute this now

[shy gulch]

lol

[urban vector]

what

[shy gulch]

sorry homie but i aint got enough mental space to rent to mfs who make no sense

not your brightest moments tbh

Vector

ugh

ok

my great grandmother who opposed Franco's fascist regime in Spain and was forced to flee her home with her family in fear of her life

good choice

wouldnt be my choice but despite his poor ideology in some areas he did incredibly important work with race relations

[near glen]

Some are

Some you know, actually try to be decent human beings

[oak cloak]

!ban @loud flax provoking arguments in politics

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned Vector#7412 (provoking arguments in politics) [1 total infraction] -- DenWav#1989.

[foggy fern]

...huh

[oak cloak]

!ban @shut vine transphobia, provoking arguments in politics

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned James#6549 (transphobia, provoking arguments in politics) [1 total infraction] -- DenWav#1989.

[shy gulch]

I dont want to speak on Daryl Davis because to be honest I'm not particularly educated on his biography, but from what Ive heard the discussions he has had have helped bring people out of the KKK

which is good by me haha

[mystic ermine]

He has a TED talk which I recommend, tbqh

[shy gulch]

Im gonna have to check that out

[dark crystal]

This was unexpected

[near glen]

Was it?

Shouldn't be, our rules are clear

[shy gulch]

maybe politics can be actual civil political discussion instead of people yelling at me n kezz 😎

[near glen]

Yeah, am sorry this went on for so long, I am normally really active here and can help steer it, but I don't particularly like the topic so I avoided it

[shy gulch]

its all good lol

thanks for the help

[mystic ermine]

I wonder why

kicked any bombs recently? please say yes, please say yes

[near glen]

Didn't you hear?

5 on Tuesday

But I was in the Netherlands

But half of them were american so actually scary

Not British scary

[mystic ermine]

😄

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3_Vm6jCL8w - reminded me of this

[near glen]

Heh

[shy gulch]

idk if her stuff falls under rules or not tho

[dark crystal]

i just meant that i wasn't expecting those two in particular to be banned for the reasons they were, but i think the bans were fair

[shy gulch]

meh kinda seemed like they were both trolling

at any rate it was coming lol

[oak cloak]

The reason was less important than the ban

[shy gulch]

the funny thing is Vector immediately goes to complain in Spigotmc discord

lol

[blazing junco]

...her? 🤨

[shy gulch]

i thought you said you were a cis female athlete when we were discussing earlier

i apologize if I was wrong

this

[blazing junco]

it's alright

i should probably put my pronouns on my name anyway

[shy gulch]

👍

[deep ravine]

personal curiosity - How offensive is it to be mis-gendered? The closest approximation I have of that is like mis-pronciating my name, or somebody forgetting my name. It happens from time to time, and I don't much care either way.

[urban vector]

well, misgendering can be very triggering and hurtful especially for someone who is trans

it is not really comparable to mispronouncing a name, at least, not to vast majority of trans people

[shy gulch]

I'm not out yet so I still go by biological sex in public unfortunately and honestly still kinda in denial but it instantly ruins my mood whenever someone calls me by my name or wrong pronouns

idk if that's normal tho

[urban vector]

maybe not normal when you look at the world as a whole, but definitely normal when you look at trans people for example

i mean, it really just depends - i know cis people who really hate being misgendered and i know trans people who don't care

safest way to avoid hurting anyone is to just ask if you're not sure, or just apologise if you make a mistake - easy peasy

[shy gulch]

💁 Ive just accepted that I'm on a roller coaster I have no control over and don't know the final destination of

[urban vector]

you'll get there in the end though :)

[shy gulch]

yep 🎢

[blazing junco]

To me? I'm not offended, I just correct the person and they'll be on their way. I think that's how most people react to being misgendered. Of course, when you're trans it can be a lot more hurtful, but if someone corrects you and you don't follow through with what they've said, that's when it gets offensive(at least, for me)

[shy gulch]

what are your pronouns so I don't mess them up :)

[blazing junco]

he/him

[shy gulch]

cool

[foggy fern]

Colin Powell died from "complications after contracting COVID-19"

That was the guy who went to the UN and tried to convince them Iraq was making yellowcake uranium and other nonsense

[vast phoenix]

It happens to me quite a lot of times because my (Real life) name is easily mistaken for that of a girl's somehow

This usually only happens with people who haven't actually met me in real life though

[deep ravine]

Has this been discussed here yet: https://apnews.com/article/new-york-new-york-city-race-and-ethnicity-education-d027be86b7d202f1d4ef62e5c3255802#:~:text=NEW YORK (AP) — New,the nation's largest school system

It seems to me that the system was in place to let talented kids get ahead, as gifted kids won't reach their full potential if they are stuck in lower level classes. Removing the program causes more problems then it creates.

[mystic ermine]

I mean, it's naunced, the aspect of putting extra resources to a bunch of kids because they got scores on early tests is kinda bleh, especially as it doesn't allow others to show up and theres much evidence to suggest that testing kids that young is generally useless

[urban vector]

If a system disproportionately enrols a low number of black/latino students, then it is nothing but systemically prejudicing children of those races and at least needs changing - sure there was probably a better solution than just blanket removing it, but you can't have a system like that remain in place in it's current state. The mayor even said that they are refocusing on a "new, equitable model".

[mystic ermine]

I mean, I was on one of those groups, and there was some niceties of it but it wasn't all that "boosted" in terms of what it offered me

[urban vector]

Like, determining the educational future of a child based on a single test taken when they were four is a terrible idea anyway...

[deep ravine]

Supposedly it has helped asian american families lift themselves up and improve their own financial situation

[mystic ermine]

I mean, in terms of day to day classes, I was stuck with the same bunch of people, and while our test was done going into seconday school it was more accurate and I'd say that most of the smart people in my year where on that program, I'd of much rather seen the resources go to actually dealing with my schools shittiness in terms of literally every subject more or less

but, I mean, the existence of those kind of programs and the ones which do do good for students really just shows how left behind people are in education, theres too much stress to just get the class to pass that those who are more gifted especially in subjects others aren't great at, e.g. the 3 Rs + STEM, means that a lot of people get left behind, those at the bottom of the class don't get the help they need and those at the top are straggled by others

[urban vector]

I'm sure it has helped the children who got in the program, but it doesn't really stop it from disproportionately affecting others and ending up in a misallocation of resources based on one test you took when you were four

I don't think we should be making decisions this big based on a single test result taken on one day, let alone that done by a four year old lmao

[deep ravine]

If a system disproportionately enrols a low number of black/latino students, then it is nothing but systemically prejudicing children of those races and at least needs changing
I would disagree... Enrolling different numbers of people doesn't immediately mean prejudice.

Like, determining the educational future of a child based on a single test taken when they were four is a terrible idea anyway...
I don't know the science behind the tests, but I agree with this. A better solution may have been to have kids who didn't make it in retest every once in a while. Or, you could have your parent request a retest.

[mystic ermine]

The issue is that it's an early snapshot and doesn't adress the issues as to why these students often get a massive boost in terms of what they leave with vs their peers

But, I mean, as I was on such a program over here and it really didn't apply to classes or anything

"best" thing we got was every once in a while we got pulled out so that the school could show off more or less

[deep ravine]

It may vary from school to school.

[urban vector]

Enrolling different numbers or people doesn't immediately mean prejudice. However, enrolling disproportionately different numbers of people does.

[deep ravine]

I don't think that shows prejudice, though. It would be prejudice if there were different standards to getting in, or tests of black students were discarded in the assumption that they couldn't possibly make it in.

If the testing is fair (Everybody gets the same test, and is held to the same standards), is it still prejudiced?

You could argue it is prejudiced if people are getting different opportunities. e.x. A predominantly black school doesn't have access to the gifted program.

[urban vector]

But the word disproportionately is key here. Something about the publicising, availability or contents of the testing process was off. I'm not sure what, but it's not like other races are less intelligent than others so 🤷

[foggy fern]

Our Talented and Gifted program was just us spending half our day doing other things for grade 1-4, nothing in grade 5, then having a special reading/english class in grade 6-7 and going to one grade higher math classes

Then for grade 8 we walked over to the high school and took freshman courses for those two

Although my "freshman" math class was just normal algebra and had seniors in it

[deep ravine]

No I get the disproportionately bit, I just don't see how that immediately implies prejudice.

[mystic ermine]

Yea, we went to a college or uni once or twice, was more just like some weird ass waste of a day which people where happy for to get out of classes, but, was never anything which really propelled us forwards, was more just a waste of time, tbqh

[foggy fern]

That was awkward as fuck, 8th grader coming in to the building for a class with seniors and doing better than them 😛

[deep ravine]

I wonder if the new york programs were better then standard schooling

[mystic ermine]

I mean, I think many people don't truly see what happens on the gifted programs

[deep ravine]

Probably means more in poor areas where the schools are under funded

[mystic ermine]

Like, yea, "gifted and taltented", you'd imagine that they'd be taken out of classes for more advanced shit, but, really, most of it was just a waste of time and a means for the school to try show off

[foggy fern]

Yeah, we didn't do a lot of structured learning that I can remember

[mystic ermine]

I don't think that we got any much of an advantage vs my peers in terms of an education, if anything we lost time out but where able to catch up somewhat quick

[foggy fern]

Like we didn't have a lot of assignments and tests and such, it was all in "class" work or reading some fiction book for homework and then discussing it next class

That kind of fucked me when I got tossed in to regular classes again

I switched schools in 6th grade and they started me out in the normal reading/english class, I got a D 😛

[mystic ermine]

first year of HS I was in some like "rainbow group" bullshit cos I'm not a people person and so I got thrown on that shit

[foggy fern]

Next trimester I was back in the T&G stuff and getting As

[mystic ermine]

I managed to get a C in english, got a D in my english lit after saying that I was gonna fail it \o/ (Languages where never really a strong point for me)

But, I mean, it's a whole crock of shit that G&T offers such a superior experience to students imho, maybe they have better programs over there, but, at least to me, it shows how much our school systems around the world are failing and leaving people behind

[urban vector]

It's quite simple, disproportionate means that the percentages of each group of people that got in do not match the proportions of those groups in the whole population. This leads to one of three conclusions. 1) The testing process is, in some way, prejudiced against those groups (doesn't even have to be intentionally). 2) It's all just one giant coincidence (which is still cause for concern and an investigation at least, judging by the fact the mayor cited the disproportionate impact of this program, i really doubt he just did this for shits and giggles). 3) That those groups are just less intelligent than the others (don't need to go further as to why this is not the case).

It's also worth noting that the prejudice doesn't even have to be directly caused by this testing system. It could be as a result of external factors that indirectly prejudice the testing system. Still is cause for concern regardless, and a refocusing of efforts is a good idea.

[deep ravine]

For your third point, perhaps the test doesn't accurately judge intelligence, similar to how the SAT doesn't test intelligence. Perhaps it tests something that isn't taught to minorities at that age (Like, perhaps white parents gave their children a head start, on average, compared to black students).

[urban vector]

Yes, which is the first point again

[dusky raft]

fuck the entire public school system in general, should just phase out half the bullshit and actually gear up people towards a career

[steady furnace]

Yay fun stuff... Our "awesome" republic again... Since elections whole nation is "wondering" whether our president is capable doing his presidential duties, since he is in ICU in hospital since election weekend. His office refused to tell anything up until today, when senate officially requested info from the hospital whether he is capable or not... And the result is, long hold behold - not capable. But although incapable he was able to sign a paper regarding new government's meeting... The signature on the paper is waaaay too weird... This is starting to be good plot for a novel... :D Sadly it is real...

[shy gulch]

my hispanic ancestors watching me fail english 😎

[blazing junco]

What do you mean? I don't know much about the US public school system, but from what I've seen it's pretty similar to my country's. Isn't it supposed to give you a general overview of every field, and then you decide what you want to major in?

[mystic ermine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0

[blazing junco]

Yeah, I've seen that video, and I don't see so much convincing stuff besides "you taught me something I don't care about now"

[mystic ermine]

Teachers heavily agreed with him

It's not so much as "don't care about now", it's so much as "you're not even taught some of the critical things like how to actually live in the country"

[blazing junco]

I mean, yeah, he's also promoting adding classes about how to vote, how to pay tax, etc

I guess that's one big up for our country, though, we have that starting from second to fifth grade where they teach you that kind of stuff

[mystic ermine]

Which is the entire message of what he's saying?

He's saying that the school system taught a lot of stuff which in retrospect isn't really important, assesses people on stuff which they really have no interest in, rather than teaching them the stuff they need to know to live, and spending time towards learning stuff more related to actually living in the real world

Now, don't get me wrong, things like english, etc, are important, science is important, but the entire school system was build oh so many decades ago and was never really upgraded bar adding new subjects and such, the whole process of exams which follow you around for life especially when so young and immature is dumb

[blazing junco]

Yeah, I guess that's fair, but I'd like to know what an appropriate solution would be?

[dusky raft]

@blazing junco im not talking about college, im talking about primary/secondary

they dont teach you squat

besides english, math, science, and maybe history nowadays

[mystic ermine]

I mean, first step of the solution would be for people to admit it's broken as all shit

[blazing junco]

Like I genuinely don't know how we could fit more stuff in a curriculum without extending the time spent in schools

[mystic ermine]

primary school is a weird area cos nobody knows what they wanna do

[dusky raft]

you can

you strip out all the useless shit and make stem/voctech the forefront in high school

[mystic ermine]

Do all students need to study art? Do all students need to study wood tech?

[dusky raft]

most people I know who do art generally do it on the side

[mystic ermine]

Like, for the first few years you generally wanna have a broad stroke, but, especially as you start getting older, you already kinda start knowing where you wanna head towards

[urban vector]

A lot of schooling is geared towards exam prep, reduce the amount of exams and increase teacher assessment and that frees up time as well

[mystic ermine]

^^

the primary goal of schooling these days is to pass exams, not to teach

[urban vector]

And also, by the time you've hit late GCSEs and into 6th form, you're spending a lot of time sitting about doing jack anyway

[mystic ermine]

teachers don't care if your sole means of passing the test is just remembering bullet points rather than actually learning and understanding stuff

[restive seal]

NGSS is theoretically helping resolve some issues in that direction. Yes, still exams, but to pass the exam you need to teach useful skills.

[mystic ermine]

The sad truth is that exams and the over-burden of passing them on everybody involved means that much time is wasted tryna ensure that students can score points on the exam rather than actually getting constructive learning and teaching in play

[urban vector]

Not even mentioning how unfair exams are - one off afternoon and that could take weeks out of your summer for resits, plus the costs associated which not everyone can pay, the anxiety and strains on mental health, etc etc

exams suck basically

[dusky raft]

exams for college?

[urban vector]

exams in general

time and time again they've been demonstrated to be a poor way of assessing knowledge and deeper understanding of content

they're just the lazy way out and people get stuck in "well i did exams so why is it fair to change it for others"

[blazing junco]

Yo but this is so real though

Even weather can fuck you up

[dusky raft]

thats why I prefer going the route of voctech, its all hands on

teach people real skills

[blazing junco]

Bad weather, feel demotivated, get fucked in exam

[urban vector]

minor cold, can't concentrate, get fucked in exam

it's so unfair really

[blazing junco]

Also you just wipe that part of your brain associated with the knowledge you were tested in in like a day or two

[tough cedar]

IM FEELIN THAT RIGHT NOW

[blazing junco]

Cant remember anything you learned a week later

[tough cedar]

it fucking sucks lmao

[dusky raft]

I dont mind tests/exams, they do need to gauge somewhere, I am just not a big fan of a one and done type of test/exam

[blazing junco]

Do you guys have exam weeks

[tough cedar]

i would if i was taking more than 2 classes

[blazing junco]

We have three exams every day for a straight week lmao

[dusky raft]

I never went to college, I have no idea

[blazing junco]

I'm in high school

[dusky raft]

eh, even then, it wasnt really huge

[tough cedar]

my other friends are having their midterms right now

[dusky raft]

then again, my high school was a side of voctech, so traditional high school was accelerated and stripped out meanwhile I fiddled around with computers for a capstone project.

[urban vector]

you can gauge knowledge so, so much more accurately and healthily through controlled assessments, coursework, teacher assessments, practicals, etc, though

[dusky raft]

not too sure about assessments, you are talking about just normal tests at the end of the week and not a 3 day exam burn in?

[mystic ermine]

I honestly find guaging knowledge to be stupid in most subjects anyways

Like, subjects like history, I'd rather history be taught by a grandpa at the front rather than an actual teacher, if you kinda get my drift

Focus more on history and the events that took place and all that rather than just aiming to pass some test, have actual focus on the history itself, etc

stuff like wood work is also something which at least over here seems to be somewhat of a dying thing

[blazing junco]

"Technology" in primary school was just wood tech for us lol

[foggy fern]

How does this work for algebra?

[dusky raft]

There was a class about the automotive industry, and man that class setup would make the local mechanics feel jealous about the amount of room and tools they got

algebra? learned that in 7th-8th grade

[mystic ermine]

Yea, same for us, but after my year they started struggling to actually get somebody to teach it

[foggy fern]

When you're learning theory and building blocks for the real things you do later you can't use practical application to judge that

[dusky raft]

then have a college course track where its needed

or advanced learning

this is what germany does

[foggy fern]

Unless your suggestion is to only teach people enough to do some specific job instead of teaching them the subject that is the foundation of basically everything else

[blazing junco]

@torn wadi Bro. Yugoslav classes taught my dad how to use firearms(including rifles) in sixth grade and how to cook in fourth grade.

[dusky raft]

https://www.howtogermany.com/images/School-Chart-January-2021.jpg

10-12 is some cases is vocational

[mystic ermine]

hey, firearms was an essential class when I was in school, You needed to be able to use a gun to be able to survive and defend the lower classes, especially on the mountains, which I walked up on the way to and from school" ~Idriz's dad, probs

[dusky raft]

also if your going into college, your already going through a specific job

moot point

[urban vector]

you definitely can, there has been quite a lot of research into how well mock-practicals work for testing more "theory"-based subjects. just because there isn't practical applications to everything, doesn't mean you can't make up and craft coursework that allows students to demonstrate understanding over prolonged periods of time, under less stress and in conditions that better match those in which you'll actually be working in

[blazing junco]

You joke but the reason my dad knew how to use weapons to fight in the Kosovo war in 99 was because of what he was taught in school

[foggy fern]

I think we started doing some stuff like that when we were 12, woodworking and sewing and crap

https://xkcd.com/435/

xkcd: Purity

On the other hand, physicists like to say physics is to math as sex is to masturbation.

[mystic ermine]

yea, probs around the same age here, tbqh

cooking, sewing (like, patterns and patchwork and all that crap), and then wood tech

[foggy fern]

I don't know how you do vocational math without just teaching people how instead of teaching them why

[dusky raft]

you just teach them what most schools do at an accelerated pace and the specific courses go their own route

[foggy fern]

And if you're trying to measure how well they understand the why I think the choices are standardized tests or 1:1 evaluation

[blazing junco]

we got taught none of these, we just got taught how to draw out building interiors lmao

[dusky raft]

but the idea is that college isnt going to be strongly recommended, just if you have to go for college for a specific highly advanced field like being a doctor and so on.

[blazing junco]

it was such a random subject

[dusky raft]

at least coming from a voctech point of view

[foggy fern]

In the school district I started in you couldn't take algebra until you were in grade 7 and in the one I finished in you couldn't take it until you were in grade 8

And it was really hard to be allowed to take it in grade 8, there were like 6 of us

I think you should at least get to algebra before you divert in to teaching vocational uses

The football players who were only taking it because it was required for the school they got a scholarship to didn't take it until they were in grade 12 😄

[dusky raft]

yes, because most vocational trades need some form of math

[mystic ermine]

I think a large part of it is "does every lesson need an exam"

Like, core STEM subjects I can say that finding an alternative which isn't just relying on teachers is gonna be a headache if possible

[dusky raft]

but otherwise 10-12 grade could be converted towards people who are ready for the workplace and actually can get a job

[mystic ermine]

but, theres many subjects like history where I don't think that you really need a test for as such

[dusky raft]

its mostly blue collar, but its better pay for the most part than mcdonalds

[foggy fern]

I wouldn't mind if 10-12 split off in to college focus (normal school today, more or less) and something like job corps

That makes a lot of sense to me

Well, maybe only 11 and 12 but yeah, adjust as someone comes up with a real plan

[blazing junco]

12th grade is great

I'm in 12th and the teachers are so cool now

[torn wadi]

Same here.

[deep ravine]

That would never be allowed in America.

I have some respect for my school, since they dropped mid-terms and finals (not sure if they will come back or not). My school also gets a lot of funding, incredibly diverse, etc. etc. Issue with my school is that teachers really fail on demonstrating applications of the knowledge. We have coding classes, enough for all 4 years of highschool. It's almost all theory, however, until your fourth and final year, where the second half of the class is game design.

Same story with physics, calculus, etc. Electrical fields are cool and all, but what might I do with this knowledge, which careers, can we actually work with electrical fields, etc.

[foggy fern]

https://twitter.com/JonahFurman/status/1450185754374770694

Jonah Furman (@JonahFurman)

A Deere strike captain sent me this photo, with the caption:

"This is how Deere's security has been transporting people in and out"

Presumably this is because people are scared to show their face while undermining the strike. Dystopian.

Retweets

2949

Likes

15623

Twitter · Oct 18, 2021, 7:43 PM

[mystic ermine]

Oh boy, lewis was talking about that strike other day, I saw that apparently they didn't even make the first lunch break before the ambulance was found dashing onto the site

(apparently it wasn't for an accident, but, y'know)

[foggy fern]

Huh, so a company was created just so it could IPO and then spend that money to buy/merge with Trump's new company and the resulting company will use the Trump name

So basically Trump IPO'd under a fake name 😛

The new company is doing a social network, what appears to be a youtube competitor, and some other stuff

[daring sphinx]

if I'm understanding your phrasing it's pretty common these days

they're known as SPACs

they are entities entirely designed to raise capital such that they can buy a different company

it's like a backdoor way to IPO

[foggy fern]

Right, it's a SPAC

I thought those were meant to do buyouts of companies though, not as a means to get on NYSE without doing your own IPO

Instead of raising money for a buyout via private equity you do it via IPO but the goal is to buy an existing established company and the result is publicly traded just because that's how you raised the money to begin with

Trump's company was created for this thing to buy and doesn't really have any assets or anything other than rights to use his name afaik

Seems like it was just a way to get on NASDAQ without drawing attention and risking having the IPO bomb

Although reading more about them that is apparently common practice for the last couple years

[daring sphinx]

yeah a huge number of companies have IPOd via SPAC

it ever so slightly bugs me

[near glen]

https://twitter.com/josephfcox/status/1451198333024833548?t=3wPCIe1F3pYtNfJh4t1sHw&s=19

Joseph Cox (@josephfcox)

New: lot of people have noted the similarities between Trump's new social network 'Truth Social' and Mastodon, the free open-source social media platform. Spoke to Mastodon's founder. They agree, seems Trump is just using Mastodon without giving credit https://t.co/CCzLM8tSN2

Retweets

232

Likes

418

Twitter · Oct 21, 2021, 2:46 PM

https://c.tenor.com/UZJd1pjj4NMAAAAM/surprised-pikachu.gif

Trump stealing other peoples work? How boring

[dusky raft]

Well, there are open source projects and companies that dont give credit to the origin source

this isnt really new...

they do have to provide the complete source code however

[near glen]

Well, violating the licence is the same as stealing

[dusky raft]

are they violating the license?

[foggy fern]

Mastodon is AGPLv3 so did they publish the source for their website anywhere?

[near glen]

They claim their code is fully proprietary

[dusky raft]

it will depend when the site gets a full launch

oh wait

did they actually launch?

anyone got a url somewhere?

[near glen]

It's publicly accessible that's all that counts

[foggy fern]

Is it?

[near glen]

And no, no interest in giving them my IP

[foggy fern]

All I can find are stories about it'll exist eventually and will have an app and will start taking signups for early access soon but can't find anything

Oh it's just https://truthsocial.com

(disabled the embed so there is no risk of it giving them your IP)

Can't remember if discord embeds are proxied via the server or not

[dusky raft]

eh, not like I care too much,

wont be signing up however, lol,

[near glen]

https://twitter.com/MikaelThalen/status/1451017501026885632?t=FYMj8Wzcdrzfr6loIXZLWQ&s=19

Mikael Thalen (@MikaelThalen)

Was just able to setup an account using the handle @donaldtrump on 'Truth Social,' former President Donald Trump's new social media website.

Although the site is not officially open, a URL was discovered allowing users to sign up anyway.

Retweets

1994

Likes

13787

Twitter · Oct 21, 2021, 2:48 AM

[foggy fern]

Ok so it's apparently just a rebadged mastodon, it's live already, where is the source code 😄

[near glen]

https://twitter.com/RealGlenMerlin/status/1451068464232157184?t=C4yCxVRa3B8s1UDCJ9paJA&s=19

Glen (@RealGlenMerlin)

@VValkyriePub @MikaelThalen it is bang on

Likes

350

Twitter · Oct 21, 2021, 6:10 AM

[dusky raft]

ye, though to be honest, its really a wait and see

considering this is a pre launch

but yes, they would have to release the source code

[near glen]

Let's be real here, do you expect them to do it?

[dusky raft]

I dont know

[near glen]

I just learned that Gab (whatever the fuck that is?) Is a mastodon fork for alt right idiots too, did they disclose source?

[dusky raft]

yeah

https://code.gab.com/

oh wait

yeah, this looks correct

just a basic gitlab instance

lold

the password

well damn, id be kind of scared to see how gab has their backend setup

because this is not how you fucking do git

but yeah, this could just be the same thing

[restive seal]

https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3479525

Deplatforming refers to the permanent ban of controversial public figures with large followings on social media sites. In recent years, platforms like Facebook, Twitter and YouTube have deplatformed many influencers to curb the spread of offensive speech. We present a case study of three high-profile influencers who were deplatformed on Twitter---Alex Jones, Milo Yiannopoulos, and Owen Benjamin. Working with over 49M tweets, we found that deplatforming significantly reduced the number of conversations about all three individuals on Twitter. Further, analyzing the Twitter-wide activity of these influencers' supporters, we show that the overall activity and toxicity levels of supporters declined after deplatforming. We contribute a methodological framework to systematically examine the effectiveness of moderation interventions and discuss broader implications of using deplatforming as a moderation strategy.

[glossy sandal]

think it's less about toxicity going down and more about it moving somewhere else to wherever the people that got deplatformed go to

[urban vector]

if those alternative sites are tiny and out of the public eye, then that's a win in my books

especially when you consider that each deplatforming would come with a significant drop off in followers in addition to reach

[deep ravine]

Isn’t it lame that Facebook/Twitter/whoever can deplatform political officials

Left or right, deplatforming sounds like a violation of free speech to me.

[foggy fern]

Huh, apparently their totally-not-mastodon-trust-me instance was actually trying to federate with other mastodon instances, that setting is probably on by default

[foggy fern]

I'd say the solution is to get rid of Facebook and Twitter but forcing them to keep Trump on their platform would be a violation of their First Amendment rights as it would be compelled speech and/or denying freedom of association

[deep ravine]

I’ll be the first one to cheer when Facebook and Twitter die

[foggy fern]

We allow the government to deny freedom of association for a variety of reasons under the 14th Amendment but breaking the rules of the group you're trying to be a part of isn't one of those reasons

[deep ravine]

But trump was banned for “inciting violence,” right? What about BLM leaders? It would be one thing if the rules were consistent, but that doesn’t seem to be the case

[foggy fern]

Neither is political affiliation (outside of California) although that's not why he was banned and just because you set up a political party that says women should stay in the kitchen doesn't mean you can't be banned for saying it on Twitter 😄

[deep ravine]

You also have people who are getting filtered after quoting posts from right winged speakers.

Not saying Twitter doesn’t have the right, just saying that they should be compelled to keep people on the platform if they can’t keep the rules consistent

I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Twitter and facebook can effectively decide elections

[foggy fern]

The only way to keep them consistent is to have a bot do them and then they'd just be consistently confusing 😛

As soon as you have a human involved their own bias and mood for the day is going to impact whether they think something is a harmless, worth a warning, or worth a ban

Although the majority of the stuff posted is going to be either obviously harmless or obviously worth a ban it's the fringe cases people complain about

[deep ravine]

Which is why it’s ok to compel them

[foggy fern]

Those only even get brought up for a human to review based on algorithms deciding it or people spamming the report button

[deep ravine]

I wouldn’t dare trying to defend trump’s tweets, but no company should have that power.

[foggy fern]

The solution is to make them not have that power, not to force them to not use it

[deep ravine]

Either is better then right now.

[foggy fern]

Well, no

[deep ravine]

Once I get back to my computer I’ll try to find that North Korean human rights activist that was filtered after she quoted Jordan Peterson once.

[foggy fern]

One is fixing our economic system to stop producing and allowing one or a small handful of companies to dominate and the other is giving the government more control over what the most influential parts of our society can do and say

"filtered"?

Oh, you mean she ended up on some list that meant Twitter users could stop her from replying to them?

But apparently not even stopping her, just stopping those replies from showing up unless you click the "Show" button

[deep ravine]

Yeah it covers up her content and you have to agree to see offensive content

But that only started happening after she quotes Jordan Peterson. I’ll find her account in a couple minutes

So all images/videos she posts is covered by a button "The following media includes potentially sensitive content." You can click that to view the content.

NGL, she is right winged, I did not remember that from the first time I saw the censorship, but even her non-US politics stuff is censored - All of her content is. https://twitter.com/YeonmiParkNK.

[restive seal]

Are they hitting a "white supremacist" filter? 🤔

[deep ravine]

https://tenor.com/view/umm-confused-blinking-okay-white-guy-blinking-gif-7513882

[glossy sandal]

facebook isnt a government run public entity they the right to host whatever they want on their platform lol

and Twitter

they are in charge of their own set of rules and guidelines and can act upon them themselves, government intervention in that is like completely opposite of what the Republican party stands for imo, which was government intervention in businesses right?

[near glen]

Don't try to make sense about stuff like that, that's only confusing conservatives

[restive seal]

Conservatives absolutely loved when a bakery discriminated against a couple based on their sexual orientation (protected class!) citing a business's right to refuse service, but freak out when they get banned from a business for doing something dumb (not protected class!) as is that business's right.

Shouldn't be surprising from them but I still have trouble processing it sometimes...

[shy gulch]

and background checks are not thorough (context moving in from general)

[mystic ermine]

The issue is that there's no real system for it all, which is typical for the US

[shy gulch]

dont take into account behavior, mental health, etc

yep

[near glen]

cat: I'm saying that comparing the US to individual countries is a flawed comparision
lets look at states then, mississippi, 19.9, alabama, 21.5 firearm deaths per 100k

[mystic ermine]

Like, theres many times where people woulda been prevented from having a gun if the system worked as it woulda worked

[shy gulch]

eh

[mystic ermine]

Okay, but how are those deaths reported?

[shy gulch]

the system sucks

[mystic ermine]

Because many states include suicides in those figures

Which, if you ask me, if you're gonna self yeet you're gonna try any way

[near glen]

52% homicides in mississippi

[shy gulch]

As a texan who owns guns and has grown up around them, we have a MASSIVE problem with gun violence

[near glen]

and you always count all deaths related to a firearm

[shy gulch]

and most of those (used in shootings) are obtained legally through our shit system

[near glen]

and then split into homocide and suicide

[mystic ermine]

Yea, but given that the EU has much stricter gun laws in many places it's nuanced, you're not gonna see suicide deaths by gun being a much of a frequent thing in many EU countries

and, don't get me wrong, am not saying that there isn't a huge problem in the US

am just saying that if you're gonna use stats as a basis for any form of debate you should try to at least level the playing field

[near glen]

wat

wrong channel much

[shy gulch]

🤔

[near glen]

well, suicide rate in germany is much lower

[slim estuary]

ooooops

[shy gulch]

:|

[mystic ermine]

like, when you compare US gun crimes overall you're practically comparing something akin to the size of the EU in terms of different laws, densities, etc

[faint radish]

The problem with “some” proposals for stricter background checks, is that you can’t take away rights without “due process” (which has a specific meaning in the US). So like red flag stuff, that’s not due process.

[near glen]

rights should be granted

[faint radish]

NO NO NO.

[mystic ermine]

Like, minnesota, cali

[faint radish]

Come on mini

[mystic ermine]

both different states, both entirely different stances

So, what you're saying is

that you as a human have no rights

but, you as a german has rights

[near glen]

dont come on me, thats how it works here 😄

[faint radish]

Ik, we’ve talked about this 😛

[mystic ermine]

I like the way that the US looks at it better, in a sense

[near glen]

I know it doesn't work that way in the US and I think thats a giant flaw in your constitution

one of many

[faint radish]

It’s demeaning to think a government is the source of my rights

I have them because I’m human

[near glen]

not the goverment is

the country is

my constitution grants me rights

[faint radish]

Which defines your government

[shy gulch]

the US was built on some great but also many outdated and garbage philosophies and so its not surprising our gun laws are as dated and terrible as they are

among other laws

[near glen]

goverment is a representation of the will of the people

and its not the goverment alone, need the parliament, 2/3

[shy gulch]

unfortunately not always true

for example gerrymandering districts to give a certain group less power to vote

meaning you end up with minority rule

[near glen]

I mean, isnt it part of human rights?

lemme look it up

[faint radish]

Well whatever, this isn’t super material to the gun debate. In the US, (and that’s not gonna change anytime soon), you need due process to remove rights specifically granted to the people

[near glen]

"The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government"

[faint radish]

And so your neighbors, family saying you shouldn’t own a gun doesn’t work. Pretty sure that’s what red flag laws are

[near glen]

article 21 of human rights

so you want to give somebody a gun where the close relatives say hes a maniac?

[mystic ermine]

I mean, that's naunced

[foggy fern]

afaik the way they try to make red flags legal is by having the seizure expire by default until/unless the government can convince a judge you really are (still) a threat to yourself or others

[near glen]

I would say, if such red flags exist, at least get it checked out, right?

[faint radish]

Yeah, that might work Amaranth

[foggy fern]

So the initial seizure is like getting a warrant but keeping them away from you (and banning future sales) requires going through court

[mystic ermine]

A big issue with policing is that a lot of it is reactive

Like, you've got the proactive side of it with the intelligence agencies but it only comes out a few days after shit goes down that "yea, this individual was known and under watch"

a lot of laws like red flag laws are caveated because what stops the crazy ex situation?

I think that that is one of the major compounding issues these days is that a lot of stuff is by a system and if you don't follow the system you get in shit, you hear it from first line workers a lot that like theres many situations where they which they could do more but they're basically just fuckerino'd

and the joy is that basically every system in existence is a patchwork of what was created say, 100 years ago, or whatever, and nobody ever just thought to toss out the book and start again, so you end up with systems which allow abusive officers to just transfer to every department and building in existence, you end up with databases designed to prevent people who shouldn't have a firearm allowing people to get a firearm because the system is too far outdated and unmaintained, like, damn, the DoD was using fucking floppy disks in their nuclear bases

[foggy fern]

8" floppy disks

70s was 8", 80s was 5.25", 90s was 3.5" so they were or still are 50 years out of date 😄

[mystic ermine]

only 50?

Hey damn, that's actually pretty good

[deep ravine]

facebook isnt a government run public entity they the right to host whatever they want on their platform lol
yes

they are in charge of their own set of rules and guidelines and can act upon them themselves
They are still subject to federal crimes. You launder money, you get fined. You mistreat your workers, you get fined.

mpletely opposite of what the Republican party stands for imo
yes. I am not a republican, nor am I a representative of the republican party.

I am only trying to argue that no business should have the power to deplatform political leaders (effectively influencing elections). Especially today, where the US is so polarized, where a small difference will decide an election.

The argument shouldn't even be about that -- The argument should be about how to implement it.

[dusky raft]

I do think big tech has sway in elections

[mystic ermine]

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/22/1048583558/baldwin-didnt-know-weapon-on-movie-set-contained-a-live-round-search-warrant-say

[foggy fern]

Apparently they had scabs replacing the normal crew who were out due to what looked like a pending strike for the IATSE

It was either day 1 or day 2 of the replacement crew

[tough cedar]

oh so it was an actual bullet?

[foggy fern]

I guess technically they weren't scabs? I don't think the strike actually happened the company just decided to get rid of the union workers so they were prepared for it

[mystic ermine]

I don't remember who exactly said it was a live round but that's the current story I can see

which ofc raises a lot of questions, apparently you're not even supposed to have live rounds on set, so, er, damn

[tough cedar]

i said this morning it wasn't a live round because that's what i'd read yesterday

[mystic ermine]

This morning there was already suspicions that it was live as apparently the round hit two people, one went to hospital for it but apparently it didn't penetrate them or something, and shamefully the person who died :/

The gun that actor Alec Baldwin fired on set, killing a woman, was handed to him by an assistant director who told him it was safe, court records show.
The unnamed director did not know the prop contained live ammunition and indicated it was unloaded by shouting "cold gun!", the records say.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59018391

[foggy fern]

Was it a shotgun?

[mystic ermine]

No info on that yet, but 1880's era piece

[foggy fern]

Sounds like he hit them with some birdshot or buckshot

[mystic ermine]

heavens knows, I mean, the info's like slowly piecing out so maybe we'll find out at some point, but, it's crazy

and yea, the normal crew basically walked out hours before

apparently underpaid, payment issues, lots of safety issues, etc

[foggy fern]

Unless the round went through one person and hit the other behind them it would have had to be some kind of pellets which unless they're doing something weird would be a shotgun

Yeah it sounds like even Baldwin was posting on facebook about the shitty hours and working conditions earlier this week

Except Baldwin is the guy running the whole thing...

[mystic ermine]

well, the "unless" case is what I heard but I mean right now much info is Chinese whispers right now

[near glen]

I don't think they stear them directly. Politicans use their platform for missinformation, so that has to stop, and especially Facebook actively promotes whatever drives engagement, so all the lies and shit get even more attention. That's what's making the impact

Political advertising is the other big problem, you can use micro targeting to target really small groups with exactly what they wanna hear, without other groups noticing you told them that and you can tell those others something completely different

That's how the neo-liberals in Germany were so strong with the youth here in the election, they just handed Facebook a bag of money and did smart (and technically misleading ans even untrue) ads on Instagram, targeted at the youth

[mystic ermine]

The thing is that social media has a lot of control over stuff, be that pulling people into idealogical wormholes or controlling the flow of media, and it's very easy to see that the majority of media which people consume for information is very rarely on a level playing field. Their goal is to earn cash from you, and that's done by retaining your attention, and many social media sites don't care if that leads people into really dark places so long as they can take as little blame as possible, if a large part of your activety is raging on a group, they'll direct you to rage there, if you're interesting in joining a cult, heck, they can even help with that too!

[tough cedar]

bruh, delaying the remaining JFK files again

[foggy fern]

So it sounds like it was the armorer who messed up on the Baldwin thing

She was fairly new to the job

[mystic ermine]

Well, yes, whomever passed him a loaded gun and said it was cold messed up, but, it's also a mess up that there was no verification by the actor, like, there are 3 rules for guns, which I can imagine that people just get complacent and such when it's somebody elses job :/

[near glen]

How do you know if the gun is loaded with blanks or not?

[mystic ermine]

You check

[near glen]

There's no time for that on a set most likely

[mystic ermine]

like, blanks look different as opposed to like, actual rounds, they don't like actually using them during stuff like reloading scenes, etc, cos they look different and you can tell that they're blanks

It's the 3 rules

I mean

Like, don't get me wrong, I've worked on places where time is a stretch, I know how easy it is to get complacent around shit when you're rushing and underpaid and shit

But, this is a tool specifically designed for a specific job, there are many rules around how guns should be used on set in regards to handling and passovers, etc, the person passing shoulda checked before hand, if the person holding the gun didn't see the person loading the gun and checked what was being put in there and that the barrel was clear, they shoulda checked what was loaded before they started using it

even with blanks, the rules don't change; I think it was bruce lees son who died from firing a blank in which there was some left over crap from another blank, or might have been somebody else

the gun in question has had a few "misfires", but, that word appears to be kinda misused, so, idk if it was a misfire (misfire being, it didn't go pop when it should have), or if it's accidently discharged on set, which given the era they're tryna simulate, accidental discharge sounds more likely, but, I mean, still early days :/

[foggy fern]

They aren't supposed to have live rounds on the set without warning beforehand and a bunch of other prep work

Brandon Lee died because they had a scene where you need to be able to see the rounds so they had a bullet still but weren't supposed to have a charge. They forgot to remove the primer so when someone accidentally fired it the bullet was pushed in to the barrel

They never cleared it and then loaded normal blanks which when fired were enough to push the bullet out and shoot Lee

[mystic ermine]

Yea, which kinda goes into the whole horror of the safety issues the original staff walked out on

A lot of shit went wrong here, but, from the walk out, seemed like it was kinda just unfortunatly a matter of time for this set

[foggy fern]

They had a really shitty environment on this set for sure

iirc the rule is if you're working 14 hours they have to get you a hotel room for the night (holy shit 14 hours) so the schedule was 12.5 hours of work and a 1 hour lunch, just under the limit

So then they had an hour commute there and back instead, 16 hour days

[mystic ermine]

jesus

[wanton flint]

@valid steeple told me he has to say something

[sand shale]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-all-folks-thatsit-the-gif-5412622