#politics

1 messages · Page 75 of 1

torn wadi
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Even if it does, the process takes way too long, people will keep stalling it forever.

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Just like every lawsuit here. Oh we (the government) illegally took your land? Yeah, just sue us... postponed for 10 years... yeah, sorry it's 10 years old, we have to throw it out without the possibility to appeal.

shy gulch
brisk cradle
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They don't give a toss about the rule of law here. And Texas's anti-abortion law is unique in that it isn't a traditional ban on abortion - it theoretically allows anyone to sue someone who even, say, gives a woman a ride to an abortion clinic.

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It was designed to be virtually impossible to block before it came into effect.

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The law itself is flagrantly illegal and stretches the rule of law, but when has the GOP been concerned with the rule of law as of late? Remember that they supported an attempted coup d'etat several months ago.

near glen
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Isn't the far right that always talk about the rule of law?

brisk cradle
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Yes, that far right.

near glen
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Sorry for trying to look at this with a sense of logic, I always forget that that doesn't apply here

brisk cradle
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We are talking about the GOP here - this is a logic-free zone, feelings are all that matter.

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Specifically the feelings of one particular entitled child - former President Trump

near glen
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feelings are all that matter

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But these are the people that talk about to much emotion towards the climate catastrophe...

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I hate inconsistency, lol

brisk cradle
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The GOP does not believe climate change is a thing we should worry about. However, brown people voting or getting abortions is VERY IMPORTANT to prohibit!

brisk cradle
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Finally, some sanity is breaking through in California? https://apple.news/Apx1-lY-bQjGLGaOa7OPSvQ

New poll shows Newsom recall failing as conservatives can’t grow su...

With less than two weeks before the Sept. 14 special election, the campaign to recall Gov. Gavin Newsom is falling short as a majority of likely voters approve of how he is handling the top issues facing California and as Republicans have failed to broaden the coalition of opponents who want to get rid of him, according to a new study released W...

faint radish
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What does the 19th amendment have to do with this at all

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That’s: right to vote shall not be denied… on account of sex

foggy fern
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They just keep passing the most restrictive thing they think will satisfy the previous Supreme Court ruling and while it mostly gets overturned eventually that takes years and whittles away at Planned Parenthood v Casey

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Texas did this last in 2013, took until 2016 for it to get straightened out

faint radish
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This is actually a really interesting case. The State of Texas cannot enforce their law. In the law itself, it prohibits any employee or official from enforcing this law, because federal courts don’t temporarily overturn laws, the prevent state government enforcement of the law.

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Reading alito’s denial for the injunction, I might actually agree with him. The government doesn’t enforce this law, so the government can’t be enjoined from enforcing it.

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And the federal courts don’t enjoin lower courts from doing stuff, there’s an exception for courts in ex parte Young

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Roberts, in his dissent, says it may be correct that the judicial branch can’t intervene at this stage, only later through a merits case.

With this unprecedented “scheme”, I would think it better to not act quickly

faint radish
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I don’t like abuse of the law like this, passing laws that are, on the face of it, unconstitutional under existing precedent, or laws that are sure to get overturned. But this isn’t something new, and it’s not unique to the GOP

glossy sandal
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Republicans only care about right of choice when it comes to masks and vaccines

dusky raft
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@glossy sandal however republicans do have a point in the debate, a fetus can technically be considered living, therefore killing it can violate its rights. However democrats counter by saying it has 0 rights

glossy sandal
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I mean most republicans are in favor of death penalty aren't they?

dusky raft
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sure, lets go that route, someone who has killed and murdered people I think should get the death penalty. However, on the flipside, democrats do have a somepoint case point in it, in which you can condemn an innocent to death, which to say has happened before

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but, is the potential for life in prison better than death?

glossy sandal
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Potential?

dusky raft
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I do think we need to revamp the criminal justice system to seek rehab over punishment, but I do think some of the most vile crimes should be put under death.

glossy sandal
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Mostly I'm saying is it's pretty weirdchamp to be okay with criminals to be executed because of a crime someone else thought they deserved and take their right of life away but then say no to fetus. Cant play both sides

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It's weird that we can draw the line for when its "legally" okay to kill someone

dusky raft
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ok, we can play that game, so if this person was to be put to death? what would their crimes be? if its murder, they violated someones right to life

glossy sandal
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So is it murder when you execute them too

dusky raft
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sure, state sanctioned murder, im not denying that

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but as I said, I do think it should be an absolute last resort, with safelocks to prevent innocent people from getting killed by the state

glossy sandal
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Who determines the safe locks though

dusky raft
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good question, this is something I am not truly sure of, maybe depends on jury or user voting panels, petitions?

glossy sandal
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Possibly

dusky raft
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maybe bring it to state house/senate to okay the action, sort of like impeachment

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though, that could gridlock government

brisk cradle
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I say, instead of banning junk food, perhaps we could further subsidize healthy food?

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Also, real sweet when you're speaking for a shop that sells salads for $10-$15 a pop.

glossy sandal
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The dude who owns a salad restaurant chain wants to ban junk food thonk

mystic ermine
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I mean, I'm conflicted on the death sentence, on one side, I think it's pretty farcical to be paying for a roof over somebodies head who is basically casted to rot there, but, at the same point, how many people have found themselves on death row only to be found innocent? rehabilitation should also be a goal of the system but the system has basically coaxed people into thinking that ex-cons are evil forever and ever, bar the 'holy stories'; abortion, eh, idk how I feel about it, I don't exactly agree with it but I don't think that throwing people into a system designed to throw them around for years on end is a good solution, nor, why should I be a moral arbitar on what somebody does

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skimming that article just reminds me of the whole "body positivety" movement shit

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"healthy at every size" but as soon as somebody who's in the spotlight wants to improve their body they all start screaming about how it's fat-phobic and all that shit to wanna improve yourself

glossy sandal
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Wall break

mystic ermine
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There defo needs to be a push to try to get healthier options on peoples plates, but, banning "junk" food won't solve it, all you'll do is price those less off out of the food market; schools these days also do a shit job of teaching people how to use a kitchen (ontop of parents seemingly getting into a 'the schools should be teaching them'

deep ravine
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Actually though, since one of the left's messages is "equality regardless of race, sex, etc.", why doesn't a fetus have rights? If I had been approaching American politics as an alien, I would've associated pro-life with the left (Obviously that isn't the case).

From watching a few "Change My Mind" segments (not a great place to find the best and brightest of the left, I understand, but I digress), it seems there are a few arguments:

  • It is a part of the mother, so it is no different then the mother. More or less makes the fetus property.
  • "Clump of cells"
  • It is not "aware" yet

These arguments are easily picked apart, so what is the more rational argument defending pro-choice?

loud flax
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yeah on one of those change my mind videos, there was a man who argued that the fetus wasn't viable until it came out

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Steven's view is that it's a life the moment the egg and sperm create the first cell with new DNA, which seems like a sound argument

restive seal
loud flax
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liberals don't seem to like the system the way it is

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if there's a crack, replace the system instead of fixing it

deep ravine
# restive seal Hasty generalization.

I admitted that:

(not a great place to find the best and brightest of the left, I understand, but I digress)

But the point I was trying to get at is that I want to learn more about the rationalization of pro-choice. I don't understand the position. I want to know more.

restive seal
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Actually I meant your "these arguments are..."

deep ravine
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Oh, do you want me to "pick apart" those arguments?

loud flax
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"Clump of cells" defines every human being on earth, so not valid lol

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unless clump means a handful or something small

deep ravine
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It is a part of the mother, so it is no different then the mother. More or less makes the fetus property.
Why is it a part of it's mother? It has unique DNA, to me that's enough to say that it is a seperate organism from it's mother.

I've also heard the argument that the fetus is 100% relient on the mother. A newborn baby is 100% relient on its mother, so what is the difference?

"Clump of cells"
Obviously, all living things are a clump of cells. I am a much larger clump of cells.

It is not "aware" yet
This was referring to sentience (Intelligence, self awareness, and consciousness, by my definition). Proving that something is sentient is not easy. Prove to me that you are sentient. There is an fun star trek episode on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjuQRCG_sUw. How can you be so sure that the baby is not sentient?

Hell, lets say that the fetus is not sentient. Somebody asleep is probably* not sentient. Somebody in a coma probably* isn't sentient. Is it ok to kill somebody who is asleep, or in a coma? Why does the same reasoning not extend to a fetus?

*There are debates on this. It is not an easy question

restive seal
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Reliant on mother: newborn is not reliant on the mother. That's just the most convenient setup but is not a requirement. Prior to birth it's literally tied to them.

Just choosing the easiest response while in moving vehicle (not me driving don't worry) with people around talking.

deep ravine
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Let's say I have a baby. If I, say, put it in my backyard and leave it there, it will die. The baby is 100% reliant on somebody to take care of it.

restive seal
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Not the same as being physically tied to specifically the mother.

deep ravine
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How? In both cases the baby is 100% reliant.

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I grant that in one case, the baby is physically attached. However, there might as well be a physical attachment between a newborn and a mother since it is still 100% reliant on the mother

restive seal
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Once born they can be moved to someone else. The mother is effectively trapped until birth.

deep ravine
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Ok, let's say the baby is now 100% reliant on a stranger, not the mother. Since that baby is 100% reliant on the stranger, can the stranger kill that baby?

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Obviously not. The baby is still reliant, and the baby cannot be killed once born.

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So what is the difference?

tough cedar
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actually nevermind

deep ravine
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The mother is effectively trapped until birth.
Perhaps you mean that the baby is an inconvience to the mother, or that the mother is trapped in a "contract", if you will.

My reply to that would be that how does the Mother's right to convenience and comfort outweigh the child's right to life?

foggy fern
deep ravine
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Only having read the first few paragraphs (I will continue), I don’t like how it uses this idea that a fetus is not a person. The article should define the characteristics of what it means to be a person, and why a fetus is not a person. The article completely skips this step.

foggy fern
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Err, it's telling you the arguments of the day (1971)

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Not that they've changed much

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In the end it says to accept the idea that a fetus is a person and then shows why that shouldn't matter

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This is pretty much the argument for abortion when discussing it philosophically/morally

deep ravine
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Alright, I’ll go through the whole thing before jumping ship then

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Give me a moment

foggy fern
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The response to this argument is usually about tacit consent (you knew pregnancy was a possibility so you're responsible for the result) and the argument against that is that this clearly isn't always the case because "she was asking for it" by wearing certain clothes or walking through a certain neighborhood isn't a defense against a rape charge

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And on and on it goes

deep ravine
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Alright, addressing point 1: (The case of aborting a baby to save the mother).

This is an extreme case, and not one I am prepared to argue about. I am not concerned about the small portion of abortions that are done to save a mother’s life. I am concerned about the larger group of people.

In short, extremes do not represent the majority of abortions. I am sure this will come up again, assuming the article deals with rape.

foggy fern
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The example from Thompson is about rape and then expands that out to cover most/all abortions because how the fetus was conceived doesn't change its right to life or the woman's right to bodily autonomy

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So if you decide abortion for rape is allowed you've already decided the woman's bodily autonomy is more important so that should apply consistently

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That's why the argument against it is about tacit consent, to try to separate rape cases from the rest

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Well, she actually starts with rape then expands to cover women who used contraception then all women

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Either way tacit consent is the argument used against it

deep ravine
deep ravine
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I now understand the counter argument

foggy fern
torn wadi
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Oh no, so anyway. kekwhyper

sage shore
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texas bad

woven reef
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I agree

near glen
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"We find that rising piracy increases subsequent R&D spending [...] for large, incumbent software firms. [...] We conclude that piracy and similar competitive shocks push firms to innovate to stay ahead of imitator products"

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US patent office concludes that patterns are hindering innovation?

mystic ermine
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patents prevent 3rd parties innovating your design which impacts competition which also impacts the firms own will to self innovate

near glen
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Yeah

mystic ermine
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But, at the same point, the issue is is how does a company profit from innovation if somebody else can take your innovation and release the product without having the R&D investment you placed into it?

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patents are really a level of catch 22, imho, especially now that we're a heavily industrial society

near glen
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Yeah it's hard to balance

foggy fern
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People always talk about patents protecting the little guy but these days shit is so complex the big company would want to just buy the little guy anyway and get them to help

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At least in the US

near glen
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And the award to most American headline of the week goes toooooo

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"Gunshot Victims Left Waiting as Horse Dewormer Overdoses Overwhelm Oklahoma Hospitals, Doctor Says"

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Lol, didn't even see this actual FDA statement before

faint radish
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Don’t you need a prescription for ivermectin?

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And to be completely clear, it’s not just used for animals, that just makes good headlines. It is used to treat several things in humans as well

near glen
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Yes its not only used for animals, but these people are taking the dosis for animals since that's more accessible apperently

faint radish
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Well then google’s wrong. Their little quick facts box at the top says prescription needed.

mystic ermine
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how well do pet stores check it?

near glen
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At least the FDA website is number 3 in Google for "buy ivermectin" lol

mystic ermine
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So, i'm guessing

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the human quantified stuff requires a prescription

faint radish
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Ya maybe that’s it

mystic ermine
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But, pet owners can purchase the stuff for their pets and such at leisure

tough cedar
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yes cat

foggy fern
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Lots of meds are like that

foggy fern
daring locust
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loooool

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doing that just makes you more suspicious lol

pulsar meteor
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Well, seems like Navalny's new site is blocked too

sweet stream
faint radish
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🤣🤣

https://babylonbee.com/news/controversial-scene-in-new-dune-movie-has-paul-atreides-take-ivermectin-to-protect-himself-from-worms

The Babylon Bee
In New 'Dune' Movie, Paul Atreides To Defeat Sandworms With Extra-S...

U.S. - The new adaptation of Frank Herbert’s Dune comes out October 22nd, but many critics have already seen the film and are weighing in. One controversial scene stands out as a significant departure from the book: Hero Paul Atreides takes ivermectin to protect himself from worms.'You must walk without rhythm, or the sandworms of Arrakis will ...

near glen
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That film is apperently very good from what the people that saw it in Venice said

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So am hyped

faint radish
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I’m looking forward to the Foundation TV show that’s coming up here

foggy fern
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The move allows hospitals to allot scarce resources like intensive care unit rooms to patients most likely to survive and make other dramatic changes to the way they treat patients. Other patients will still receive care, but they may be placed in hospital classrooms or conference rooms rather than traditional hospital rooms or go without some life-saving medical equipment.

woven reef
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It's getting scary again.

faint radish
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“What we are talking about is saying we are going to invest resources in this 25-year-old who has eight previous arrests, who is on parole, who is a proud member of a neighborhood clique and who is not even seeking services,” National Institute for Criminal Justice Reform executive director David Muhammad told the Examiner. “It’s just not a popular decision to make and may not be politically palatable, but that’s what you have to do in order to reduce gun violence.”

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It’s not clear from the context if this “25 year old” is a real person, or just a hypothetical person, but, if you’ve been arrested 8 times before turning 26 (for im assuming gun-related crimes since you are on the list of people they want to pay), why are you not in jail still?

near glen
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https://twitter.com/CharmaineSChua/status/1435291187691229186?t=IBR32V9h2XyEOc414cySdw&s=19

Amazon is shipping stuff from china, dismantle the packages in small sub 800 usd bags and ship those over the border to avoid trump's china tariff (which is that still a thing btw? I thought trump is gone now)

Charmaine Chua (@CharmaineSChua)

These photos of a new Amazon warehouse in Tijuana, Mexico have been going viral as the "This is capitalism" picture of the year. But there's a lot more going on here than the picture can tell you. Let's trace the Amazon supply chain! A thread:👇 1/

Retweets

9440

Likes

25340

Twitter ·
faint radish
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Well, I think that’s a picture of free markets + free trade

dusky raft
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well, they moved into a place that was poor

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I dont think there is anything wrong with the picture

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those houses were most likely like that before amazon was there

near glen
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There's hope for texan women

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Mfw mexico is saner than the US

foggy fern
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The case was about a law in the part of Mexico that borders Texas

near glen
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Yeah

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It's also a huge blow to the Catholic church

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Good to see them loosing more power

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Cause fuck people that think they need to oppose their own way of thinking onto others and tell others what they can and cannot do, just because they read some fable

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You have the right to believe in whatever phantasms you want, but your rights ends where the rights of somebody else would be hurt, you don't have the right to tell anyone else how to live their life, as long as they stay within their rights too.

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That really shouldn't be controversial

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Especially in a freedom obsessed country like the US of A

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The self proclaimed land of the free

deep ravine
foggy fern
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It's a balancing test of bodily autonomy and the right to life. Pro-life people I've argued this with either pretend that's not actually a thing or imply the pregnancy is a punishment for promiscuous women

urban vector
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"you don't have the right to tell anyone else how to life their life" is not the pro-life argument lmao

foggy fern
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I don't think anyone in here has done that, all the Catholics in my family are like that though

deep ravine
deep ravine
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Oh whoops I forgot to turn ping off, sorry

urban vector
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no, I read the whole quote

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and took all part of the message into consideration

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you can't take one part of a message and say "well that's pro life" if the rest of it blatantly isnt

deep ravine
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I agreed with the whole message. I just didn't feel like quoting out that specific part, is all.

urban vector
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it's like me saying "ugh the ground in my garden is so flat" then you saying "That's actually the flat-earth argument"

deep ravine
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not sure how you made that connection

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Next time I'll be sure to cut out the few extra words for you.

urban vector
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pro-life people categorically do not care about life as they completely and utterly ignore the life of the person who is giving birth, the effects it will have on the mental health of the person giving birth, the effects it will have on the health and life of the people directly connected to the person giving birth, the life of the child after being born and probably more im forgetting to answer

loud flax
urban vector
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god forbid America, land of the free, provides people with freedom

woven reef
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Lmao

deep ravine
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pro-life people categorically do not care about life as they completely and utterly ignore the life of the person who is giving birth
A bit of a generalization. At least, I don't ignore it. Going through a pregnancy is probably very painful for a mother, especially when in specific circumstances (single, poor, raped, etc). It is a major inconvenience, both physical and mental, to have a child. That being said, most pro-life people value the right to live (a basic human right) over that inconvenience.

life of the child after being born and probably more
That's something I've been thinking about more and more. What if the child is born (who would have previously been aborted) into an inconvenient scenario (poor, put up for adoption, missing a parent, etc)? Would be much easier if we could ask the fetus, wouldn't it?

foggy fern
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Although if you give different bodily autonomy situations those are usually accepted

deep ravine
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Oh, so they just don't consider the discomfort to the mother at all?

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Ignoring the opposite side of the argument is ignorant.

foggy fern
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But pro-life people never seem to say "your autonomy is less important than the fetus" they seem to just not acknowledge bodily autonomy is a thing

deep ravine
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It is also possible they don't feel like that needs to be said? Though, I assume people who don't consider it at all exist.

loud flax
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you know, the fact that abortion is even a hot topic today is because we've probably failed at some stage to clean up society enough that it isn't even a problem

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-_-

faint radish
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man, abortion really shouldn't be a controversial issue, from a public opinion side of things (which is the side legislatures consider).

unknown.png
deep ravine
urban vector
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You've taken these ridiculously potentially life ruining experiences and narrowed them down to an "inconvenience"

foggy fern
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That's pretty close, although first trimester is more obviously acceptable and third trimester is more obviously not

faint radish
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65 % of americans say it should be illegal in most or all cases after the first trimester

foggy fern
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Which also matches the framework of Roe v Wade iirc

deep ravine
foggy fern
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First trimester was always allowed, second was conditional, third was basically never

faint radish
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24 weeks is third trimester?

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row v wade says states can do there own thing after viability, which is around 24 weeks

foggy fern
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Casey v Planned Parenthood tossed that framework out and replaced it with viability

urban vector
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Have you ever had a child or spoken to people who have? Or spoken to people who have been forced to go through drastic measures to avoid giving birth due to some of the situations you've mentioned? Do you think to them it's just a "major inconvenience"?

foggy fern
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Roe v Wade hasn't been the law of the land since the early 90s

faint radish
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ok, doesnt matter what made the rule, I thought it was around 24 weeks

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which isnt the start of the 2nd trimester

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thats close to the end of the 2nd trimester

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which doesnt line up with public opinon

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65% is a pretty solid majority

foggy fern
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Casey allowed banning or restricting after viability but in exchange restricted the burdens you could put before viability

deep ravine
faint radish
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and I'm saying that doesnt line up with public opinion currently (not that courts should use that when deciding cases)

urban vector
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Then be clear in what you're actually saying, it's not hard

foggy fern
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That's why a the abortion fight has always been about states trying to force crazy hoops be jumped through, you couldn't outright ban but were probing what "undue burden" meant

deep ravine
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I think a "major inconvenience" is plenty clear to demonstrate what I am saying.

urban vector
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Oh so I wasn't picking apart word choice?

foggy fern
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Viability has probably moved up a little since Casey was decided too, dunno if any cases have tried to redefine that

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Oh, nope, medical literature still has it at 24 weeks

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Before 24 weeks there is a less than 50% chance of survival for a preterm birth

deep ravine
# faint radish 24 weeks is third trimester?

Defining that line between when a fetus has rights and when it doesn't; it seems pretty arbitrary to me. Like, "when a hearbeat is detected" is great and all, but that doesn't decide when it is living or anything.

foggy fern
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6 weeks isn't when there is a heartbeat anyway

woven reef
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In my opinion all cases in the first trimester should be legal, and some in the 2nd and 3rd trimester

foggy fern
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6 weeks is when a some cells that will eventually be a part of the heart start having some movement but there is no heart yet

foggy fern
deep ravine
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There are a few moments in development, like when it has a nervous system, that it gets "worse" to kill the fetus, but picking one of those periods to draw the line is too arbitrary to make sense.

foggy fern
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Eh, you have to have a cutoff point somewhere

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It's a balancing test so at some point the scales will tip the other way

faint radish
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the texas law doesnt say anything about "6 weeks" does it? its just about the fetal heartbeat

deep ravine
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(other then conception)

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It has been my opinion that there are (safe) methods to block becoming pregnant, and that if you do not want to have a child, you should use them.

foggy fern
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If the texas law actually says fetal heartbeat I wonder if you could argue that's like 10-12 weeks

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6 weeks is the earliest you could detect the precursor to the heart having any movement but very rarely 8 weeks and 10-12 more likely is when you have anything like an actual heart that's beating

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9 weeks is usually when you have 4 chambers formed and such

urban vector
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Any line you draw is arbitrary

foggy fern
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There is definitely a balancing test, the question is how you weight things

urban vector
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There is no scientific/logical/fact-based "definition" of life that is applicable in 100% of cases

foggy fern
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Pain response is a popular one

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I think that's sometime in the second trimester?

urban vector
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sure, but then there are humans that don't have pain response - is it okay to kill them?

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and the arguments go on and on with any definition, which is why i find it much more useful to let a doctor with knowledge of the situation to weigh up the pros and cons given all of the case information

foggy fern
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Without pain response you need some evidence of consciousness which I don't think you can get until after birth

restive seal
deep ravine
# restive seal [tw] Soooo... how do you break that news to someone who has been raped?

There isn't much you can do after you are pregnant. However, using an extreme to justify your argument is not a good idea:

Do you support abortion EVEN IF the mother was NOT raped? If you answered yes, then why would you use that as an example? Some quick googling suggests that there are about 6,000,000 pregnancies a year, 30,000 of them caused by rape (0.5%). Like, if you wanted abortion to be legal for ONLY women who were raped, that argument would be fine. However, you cannot use 0.5% of the population to justify something for 100%.

deep ravine
foggy fern
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I agree it's a new being at conception, that doesn't change the fact that there is a balancing test between the woman's bodily autonomy and the life of the fetus

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Well, I agree enough to not bother arguing the point since my stance doesn't depend on it

dark crystal
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Simple to me, why should it be legal? Because while inside the mother's womb, the embryo/fetus is a parasite to which the body is forced to feed nutrients for it to grow. Therefore, the mother has a right to decide what their body hosts.

The line to be drawn here is when that being inside of her womb is developed enough for it to survive without the host (and thus won't be a parasite anymore)

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for instance, in Portugal the law is that up to 10 weeks you can practice voluntary abortion - i don't think the being survives outside of the mother with only 10 weeks

foggy fern
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You don't cross 50% until 24 weeks

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That is, until 24 weeks the fetus is more likely than not going to die if not in the womb

dark crystal
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then perhaps that should be the line

foggy fern
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That more or less is the line in the US since 1992 or so

dark crystal
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seems good to me, then

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Texas kinda sucks now tho

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I've read that some women don't even realize they're pregnant until quite a bit after the 6 weeks

#

(and thus I end up thinking that the 10 weeks limit here in Portugal is not enough because then you have to go to the doctor, and then they're forced by law to make you wait 3 days so you can "think about it better")

faint radish
dark crystal
#

English is not my native language, I'm sorry

#

let me edit, then

#

there, should be just one word i think

#

anyways, yeah that's my opinion

faint radish
#

I want to go back to the polling, at least in the US, that 65% of americans think abortion after 3 months (12 weeks) should be illegal in most cases

#

but I think if you payed attention to the stories about abortion in the US, you'd think that the majority of americans (except in "backwards" places like Texas) think it should be legal all the time

dark crystal
#

I mean, "all the time" in a literal sense is not good

faint radish
#

when you look at the first 3 months, 61% think it should be legal in most or all the time

dark crystal
#

you don't abort an 8 month being

faint radish
#

well, some people think its OK

#

didnt the governor of virginia say its OK to abort the baby if they are born after a failed abortion attempt?

dark crystal
#

uhm

#

I'm not sure of that

#

and how does that happen, anyway?

faint radish
dark crystal
#

if they're born... you can't exactly abort them

faint radish
#

but, yeah, there are people who think that abortion any time for any reason is OK 🤷‍♂️

#

I don't really know what that 11% who say it should be legal in most cases in the 3rd trimester really are saying

unknown.png
mystic ermine
#

post natal abortion should be legal, prove me wrong

dark crystal
#

LMAO

foggy fern
#

12 weeks is much better than 6 and at least you can argue there is a real heartbeat by then

#

But 24 weeks still makes the most sense to me

deep ravine
faint radish
#

the texas bill doesnt say 6 weeks, it says when theres a fetal heartbeat

deep ravine
# dark crystal Simple to me, why should it be legal? Because while inside the mother's womb, th...

If we looked at only the baby's dependence on the mother, if would take a long time (after birth) before a baby can become indepedent. For example, if you leave a newborn baby alone for a day, you are going to come back to a dead child. A newborn baby is still 100% reliant on, if not its mother, then its caretaker. Somebody argued the other day that the fetus is physically attached to the mother. I would argue that the baby might as well be attached to the mother given how dependant it is, even after birth.

You may say, well the mother get's a choice afterwards as to whether or not it's HER that takes care of the baby. You would be right, BUT, if the baby is 100% dependent on a caretaker, is the caretaker allowed to murder that baby?

But I think you are too disconnected to that human life, referring to it as a parasite. It is a human being, and despite being 100% dependent on the mother, it has value.

deep ravine
faint radish
#

hmm?

deep ravine
#

Look at the illegal in all cases for all 3 trimesters. I assume the "In general" is an average, or close to the average of each value.

#

The average is somehow lower then each value

faint radish
#

I think the in general is a separate question

#

not an average

restive seal
#

Hey I'm that somebody! 🥳

My point is that post-birth, autonomywise, the mother has the ability to hand off the kiddo to someone else but does not have that ability prior. Your conclusions on caretakers being allowed to murder babies because abortion is legal are... I don't have the words for that. So, ignoring that, it's very different pre and post birth and I don't know why you're sticking to this idea that the baby is stuck to their biological mother after birth as an argument in the abortion discussion.

deep ravine
faint radish
#

well I think that's because if you ask someone "Do you think abortion should be illegal" and they answer yes, most people assume they mean in any situation at any time

#

so you are gonna get a lot fewer people who answer yes to "should abortion be illegal" if you asking it generally, hence the "in general"

deep ravine
faint radish
#

but if you ask about specific trimesters, then people can be more accurate with their answers

restive seal
deep ravine
#

Like, maybe I am completely ignorant of the issue. What exactly changes that renders my point invalid?

restive seal
#

If you can't identify that the pregnant mother is physically connected to the fetus and once birth occurs the child and the mother are no longer connected, I don't know what to say to you at this point.

deep ravine
#

😆

#

I understand what you are saying. While a fetus, the baby is physically connected to its mother. Not only is the baby 100% reliant on the mother, but it is physically connected.

I am saying that, even if a connection matters (Which I don't understand why that makes the life valueless, being physically attached to the mother), a newborn baby might as well be connected to the mother because of how reliant it is.

#

Simpler terms: Why does a physical connection to the mother make the life have no value?

restive seal
#

Okay, you're just strawmanning now. I'm out.

deep ravine
#

That is a strawman, sorry. From my point of view you support abortion because of this physical connection. Why does a physical connection justify it?

foggy fern
#

I'm not sure you understand what the term "bodily autonomy" means

#

Before birth when you don't allow abortion you're forcing a women to do things with their body they don't want

#

After birth you'd just be murdering someone with no counterbalancing reason to allow it

#

If pregnancy only took an hour I think we can agree that, aside from if there are health concerns, we'd be more likely to just require a woman carry to term since their violation isn't as great compared to a life

#

This suggests there must be some point where abortion should be not allowed anymore before birth

#

That's how you can make a distinction between allowing it early vs allowing it late vs allowing you to murder a 2 year old

plush crypt
#

I for one think anyone should be allowed to control their body fully; if a person with a uterus wants to remove the fetus, they should be allowed to do so.
That being said, it too has a right to live, so if anyone has good ideas for how to sustain both parties’ rights, go ahead, otherwise I’ll go for the solution that at least sustains one party’s.

faint radish
#

If the fetus has a right to live, then another persons right to (anything other than live) can’t trump the fetus’

#

So like you say, the fetus has a right to live, but the woman doesn’t want to have the baby for whatever reason (other than a threat to her own life). That reason can’t be more important than the right to live

plush crypt
#

The carrier still has the right to remove the fetus. Take it away through whatever means you will, but it has to go. What happens after that I have no idea, it might die, it might be placed in some kind of machine, I don't particularly care.

faint radish
#

Well then the fetus doesn’t have a right to live.

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It can’t be both ways, have a right to live, but someone else can kill it whenever.

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And it’s OK to have an abortion at any time during the pregnancy? You are going into labor, about an hour from giving birth, and it’s OK to kill the baby? That’s way over the line imo.

plush crypt
#

Then come up with a way not to let it die after removal? The carrier's going to remove it either way, e.g. by going to Mexico, Denmark, the closet with coat hangers. If you can remove it and then continue to keep it alive, nice.

faint radish
#

Well what if the mother doesn’t consent to surgery to remove the baby?

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Or consent to any medical procedures other than an abortion

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Is it OK to perform a medical procedure to remove the child without consent then?

plush crypt
#

Well then they're not really gonna legally get rid of it in the place where it's illegal to do so GWcmeisterPeepoShrug

faint radish
#

I’m not following what you mean

plush crypt
#

If the option to take a pill to kill the fetus is removed, they're either gonna take the option that's legal, go somewhere else where that'd be legal, or just commit a crime.
In the ideal, it'd be removable with surgery, and kept alive on whatever machine is made for it -- or not removed at all.

faint radish
#

Right, and I agree that it’s removable with surgery, but what if the pregnant person doesn’t want surgery? You’ve got a pregnant person, with a child who could viably live without being in a uterus, but the person wants an abortion, and doesn’t want any surgery, surgery which would be the way to save the child’s life

plush crypt
#

Then they're not getting it removed...

faint radish
#

You don’t have to have surgery to remove the dead fetus after an abortion

plush crypt
#

Indeed, but then you're willingly killing it. I mean that either surgery (then proceed to use whatever premature birth machine may work best) or leaving it as-is should be the legal options. Sure, doesn't remove the option of just going elsewhere to have it done the other ways, but that wouldn't be allowed in this case.

faint radish
#

Ok. So there’s at least 1 condition that has to be met for an abortion. If the fetus is viable, then you’ve got to undergo procedures to try and save the fetus if you want an abortion

plush crypt
#

Yeah, I'd rather not kill something that's viable to live a life. Of course, not really realistic, but nonetheless my opinion

foggy fern
keen swift
#

In my opinion I think that having an abortion because you do not want the baby is wrong, I understand that it's their body, but I agree that the fetus's right to live trumps the its my body rule, and having an abortion takes away the babies right to live, However if its a medically abortion necessary then the mother should absolutely get an abortion to save her life

foggy fern
#

Huh, that's not the same as the title on the page now

#

Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans

tough cedar
#

“We’ve been patient. But our patience is wearing thin, and your refusal has cost all of us,” he said, all but biting off his words. The unvaccinated minority “can cause a lot of damage, and they are.”
he aint joking around

#

An AP-NORC poll conducted in August found 55% of Americans in favor of requiring government workers to be fully vaccinated, compared with 21% opposed. Similar majorities also backed vaccine mandates for health care workers, teachers working at K-12 schools and workers who interact with the public, as at restaurants and stores.
what about the other ... 24% of americans? indifferent either way?

#

Larry Cosme, president of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, called the mandate for federal workers “ill conceived,” saying, “Vaccination should be promoted through education and encouragement – not coercion.” kek how do you educate people who don't want to be educated

loud flax
#

The whole abortion thing reminds me of the arbitrary value we place on animals. Not endangered? Ok to eat. Endangered? It's a crime!

deep ravine
#

That isn’t exactly arbitrary, it’s done to (hopefully) keep species from going extinct

#

Not sure how effective it has been, given that legal hunting was replaced by illegal hunting, but I assume it has done more good then bad.

deep ravine
#

Maybe to some women, the amount of discomfort caused by a pregnancy is unacceptably high to a point that justifies getting an abortion. When I think of pregnancies in people around me, it’s not as if they are bed ridden for the better part of a year. In fact, I believe that all women I know who have been pregnant have worked until the day they gave birth (some even working the day they gave birth). Perhaps these people don’t represent a common pregnancy, I don’t know.

CDC says that there ~3,800,000 babies born in 2020, and ~800,000 abortions in 2020 (Both birth rate and abortion rates have been dropping for a decade or som but I digress). for every 5 babies born, 1 is aborted.

It seems, to me, that bodily autonomy can not possibly justify that number.

deep ravine
restive seal
#

Let's go all-in. Based strictly on out of control population growth your stats there show that clearly we're not aborting enough!

foggy fern
#

It should be but the Court has changed since 2016

#

Although they did decide the same thing in 2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Medical_Services,_LLC_v._Russo

June Medical Services, LLC v. Russo

June Medical Services, LLC v. Russo, 591 U.S. ___ (2020), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court ruled that a Louisiana state law placing hospital-admission requirements on abortion clinics doctors was unconstitutional. The law mirrored a Texas state law that the Court found unconstitutional in 2016 in Whole Woman's Health v. ...

#

But that was 5-4 so Barrett might tip that to 4-5 now

#

Fucking Roberts dissented in the 2016 one then concurred in the 2020 one when his vote was the tie breaker

#

Could just argue he was maintaining precedent but I think he just didn't want to preside over the Court that actually wrecked Casey

tough cedar
#

here's a fun one lel

deep ravine
foggy fern
#

In what world is Twitter a common carrier but my ISP isn't?

#

Oh, right, I forgot

spark latch
#

angela merkel lebe wohl:(

near glen
#

Just wait for what's next

#

It's gonna be fun

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I already voted, let's see what others do

faint radish
#

Lol, a city in the state of Missouri, just had its police chief, and every single employee of the police department quit

near glen
#

Why?

faint radish
#

Bad pay, lack of tools to do the job

#

Lots of police departments, even in big cities have lost crazy amounts of their force

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Seattle mayor said they can’t continue to loose officers at their current rate

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45% increase in police retirements, and 20% increase in resignations from 2020-2021 compared to previous years

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The city in Missouri said it can’t enforce its own city ordinances. The county sheriffs office is going to pick up the important stuff, so it’s not like totally lawless.

brisk cradle
brisk cradle
tough cedar
#

yeh the wp article mentioned the one in florida too

brisk cradle
#

Why do I say banning abortion is the wrong solution? Look at communist Romania.

foggy fern
brisk cradle
# deep ravine Maybe to some women, the amount of discomfort caused by a pregnancy is unaccepta...

There's many reasons why a woman might want an abortion. Imagine if it was a 13-year-old raped by their grandfather, that's grounds not just to lock up the grandfather but also get the girl an abortion. She wants to go to school, not become a teen mom. Imagine if she is an 30-year-old mom who already has 5 children, then her husband died, and she can't afford a seventh mouth to feed because she's barely making it all work on her $14/hour job at Walmart and is up to her eyeballs in credit card debt and has to decide between paying her debts or her children going hungry. Imagine someone is overjoyed to have a child, but at week 19 there's a genetic problem discovered and the child she's been hoping for will live a short life with all sorts of medical problems and insurance won't cover many of the procedures they would need to live a life, however limited and truncated it would be. You see where I'm getting at here?

#

If you want to increase the population and tax paying base, you can do that by incentivizing parenting (Democrats have proposed paying the child tax credit monthly, a policy that's in place this year and they want to expand) or increase immigration.

foggy fern
#

Epic has to pay Apple their 30% cut from the time Epic was accepting direct payments but Apple is no longer allowed to block direct payments

#

Kind of an odd ruling, they invalidated a part of the contract but still required Epic to honor it

near glen
#

No sideloading? Sad

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Did apple even sue for damages?

#

Also, this doesn't force apple to unban epic, so they have to be creative to get back on the store, right?

tough cedar
#

i mean they just removed them because of breach of contract but that part of the contract isn't allowed anymore? so they can be on the store again

near glen
#

They breached the contract tho, apple doesn't need to give them a new one

#

They already refused in Korea where this ruling here was basically written into law

tough cedar
#

way back when i thought apple said epic could bring fortnite back if they got rid of the direct payments ¯_(ツ)_/¯

near glen
#

So I guess epic either will sue to get back or licence stuff to a child company to sign a new developer agreement

tough cedar
#

isn't it more like a tos rather than a contract?

near glen
#

Worth nothing that epic can't even publish on Mac right now

near glen
#

Also, watch people build a 3rd party payment Provider that uses apple pay 😂

#

Essentially bypassing the tax

foggy fern
#

Apple won 9/10ths of the lawsuit

#

Including being allowed to ban Epic and keep them banned

tough cedar
#

ah ok interesting to know

faint radish
#

yeah, I'm not sure why all the headlines are framing this as a win for epic

#

its at best (for Epic) a split ruling

near glen
#

This is a major win for app developers in general

#

Which is what's important

#

And epic is one of said developers

#

Sure they wanted more, but they got the most important thing

faint radish
#

glad to see the court specifically state that

Given the trial record, the Court cannot ultimately conclude that Apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws

#

epic has said they are apealing already

#

apple hasnt said whether they are or not

faint radish
near glen
#

Cause Tim wanted side loading

#

So for him it's only a first step

brisk cradle
dusky raft
#

thats why I dont see bitcoin as a replacement for currency

brisk cradle
#

They gave $30 to every citizen in the country, and watched as it lost value.

dusky raft
#

yeah, I think of bitcoin being treated more as stock than as a actual currency

brisk cradle
#

it's not an actual currency and it's not even like stock

#

it's effectively an infinite Ponzi scheme

dusky raft
#

well, no, what I refer to as to why I say its treated like a stock is that people put in the cash, and let it sit till it gains value, sort of like stock

#

they dont buy much things from it

#

they will trade it into a currency they will use then buy things

brisk cradle
#

Actual currency has backing and value. A stock has, in theory, income-generating assets backing it. Cryptocurrency only has new suckers paying off the people who got in early, like a Ponzi scheme.

dusky raft
#

pretty much

#

the people who made the currency are getting off of things quite well

#

etherium's move to proof of stake pretty much solidifies people who hold a lot of etherium are the ones that get the most out of it

#

I did hold some bitcoin quite some time ago, sold it off recently for a good lunch (I threw in $40 and got a return of $16)

#

but I would never throw a ton into the cryptocurrency market as that is really risky

brisk cradle
#

I mean, I'm fine with people owning small stakes in cryptocurrency, as long as they are very aware of the risk,

dusky raft
#

@brisk cradle I mainly did it because why not than an actual thing that held value

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I dont value cryptocurrencies

#

I just had a bit of cash around and thought it would be a nice gamble

deep ravine
dusky raft
#

I dont think immigration is a bad thing, however I do think we need to take steps to mitigate people coming into the nation, bring in skilled labor and the like

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vet people coming across the border.

brisk cradle
#

anyway I have stuff to do

#

so no more politics for me

deep ravine
# brisk cradle There's many reasons why a woman might want an abortion. Imagine if it was a 13-...

If you want to use extremes to justify abortion, fine, but you need to demonstrate that those people represent a significant number of pergnancies (or, better, abortions).

For example, all people pregnant from rape is ~0.5% of all pregnancies. I dislike whenever people use an extreme like rape for this reason: You support abortion regardless whether or not the mother was raped, so why should it support your argument?

mystic ermine
#

actual currency has backing and value

#

what backing and value?

#

Issue with bitcoin isn't that it's not a real currency, it's just not overly regulated and monitored and people gain money from the large swings induced by the globalness of it

dusky raft
#

I think people treat crypto currencies more like stock, as in people put the cash in and wait for their investment to rise or fall

mystic ermine
#

the value of the USD is basically determined by traders trading between currencies, outside of black hawk USA, there is nothing inheriently that exists to keep the USD valuable outside of those with invested interests, the world doesn't want the USD to become worth fuck all because then their owed debt becomes basically fuck all, etc, etc; It's not like the USD, etc, is backed behind a tangiable resource like it used to be

foggy fern
#

Depending on your level of cynicism you could say USD is backed by the GDP of the US, the US military, barrels of oil, banking industry shell games, nothing, or some mix of all of those 😛

mystic ermine
#

Yea, I mean, it's all an interweaved basket of trading on various dozen fronts of which a good chunk of it is speculative

#

imho, it's not all that far from btc, just, you don't have people pressing as hard on it to keep it reasonably stable, and given how much more of a global affect it has, massive swings even in a single country can have a massive impact on the worth of a coin

#

if some government goes and bans it, people are either gonna ride it out or try and dump what they've got so that they still retain some of the value, ofc, that pump of undervalued currency in a means to clean their hands of it, drops the value of the currency

#

It's not like the US economy is immune from that effect, they just have a lot of investment in it and agencies designed to try and keep the usd stable

brisk cradle
#

Even then there are cases where an abortion past that point could be justified, mostly if there is a severe medical problem

blazing junco
#

I think people forget how much of a toll a pregnancy can take on a woman's body

restive seal
#

You mean it's not just some inconvenience? ShockedPsyduck

restive seal
blazing junco
deep ravine
#

Perhaps we should compile a bullet point list of all the bad things that happen to you as well as all the things you can no longer do when you are pregnant

restive seal
#

That's what you'd give a rape victim?

dark crystal
#

Honestly, though, I'm in favor of the right to an abortion the same way I'm in favor of the right of not being forced to transfuse my blood, or transplant one of my kidneys, to someone who needs it in a life-or-death case

#

in this case, your right will impact the other being, and it may not even be their fault that they're in this situation

#

and it's generally considered reasonable for one to have this right

#

women should be given the same right with their pregnancies

keen swift
#

I was just watching something on 911 and I had to turn it off because it was so horrible

deep ravine
# restive seal Yes or no, should abortion be allowed in cases of rape in your opinion? If so, u...

Although a human life produced from rape is no less valuable then a human life produced otherwise, rape is pretty life changingly terrible. That level of violation makes abortion justifiable. Where the line is as per terms, I don't know (the earlier the better, obviously). I struggle with this part of the question because I believe the life is sacred after conception, in other words, when it becomes a "unique organism". You shouldn't use rape as a justification though, as I assume you believe abortion is OK even if the mother was NOT raped.

deep ravine
restive seal
faint radish
#

frankly, I think Apple is gonna be super pleased at all the news coverage saying its a big win for Epic.

deep ravine
#

I've always been indifferent about abortions in extremes.

foggy fern
#

iirc Apple and Epic are both appealing

faint radish
#

I haven't seen that Apple is

#

only epic, but that was a couple hours ago

wraith glen
#

apple win ?

faint radish
#

I like the simplicity of the court's decision about whether Apple's operating system is its own market (and therefore needs to obey extra rules),

It is illogical to argue there is a market for something that is not licensed or sold to anyone.

#

the smartphone is much more than just the operating system, and that does have a market

#

and since its not a market, there can't be a monopoly

foggy fern
#

In California you don't have to have a monopoly to be illegally anti-competitive

faint radish
#

but you certainly have to have a market

foggy fern
#

Apple was found to be anti-competitive under California law

#

That's why they are forced to allow non-Apple payments

faint radish
#

nothing in the ruling says that apple still can't require its 30% commission from those other payment methods

#

apps can direct uses to outside payment methods, but apple can still require that they get a commission from any payment method used

#

apples dev contract has

For sales of Licensed Applications to End-Users, Apple shall be entitled to a commission equal to thirty percent of all prices payable by each End-User
that has nothing to do with in-app purchases, or the manner though which something is purchased

#

the court enjoined apple from only using its own processor, not from charging 30%

foggy fern
#

Hmm, I wonder if the Korean one blocks the 30% or not

faint radish
#

no it doesnt either

foggy fern
#

So big fucking deal, nothing changes

#

You can spend more money to have to pay Apple the same money

faint radish
#

Epic can direct users to go to a website and purchase stuff there, but it cant be done in the app

#

just like I can buy something in a browser on my phone and apple doesnt take a cut (afaik)

foggy fern
#

That's the ugly shit they used to allow

#

At one point the Amazon app opened the amazon website when you opened the shopping cart, iirc

faint radish
#

lol I don't remember that, probably before I started using amazon

foggy fern
#

They used to let you browse books for sale in the Kindle app too but then the buy button opened up a website

faint radish
#

what changed? does apple waive the fees? or take a smaller cut so amazon thought it was now worth it to move stuff into the app

foggy fern
#

I want to say they got a clarification that for Amazon Shopping since you weren't buying things for use on the phone they could do their own thing with no cut to Apple

faint radish
#

mmm ok, that makes sense

foggy fern
#

For Kindle I can't remember if they eat the 30% or just removed any mention of the store

#

This was all in like 2010

faint radish
#

and makes sense why that doesnt cover streaming services, since that can be for your phone

deep ravine
#

Also any business employing 100 or more people must have their employees vaccinated. That is not the federal government’s place to decide that. It is within the private sector’s rights to mandate the vaccine, but a federal mandate is a bad idea.

tough cedar
#

yup the gov should just not mandate the vaccine and let the people who hate the democrats so much continue to die. how dare the government try and keep you alive

#

just trying to extract more taxes

blazing junco
foggy fern
#

On a different note, I don't understand how you can look at this graph and think "climate change is a myth, ice is bigger than it was in 2012" (the record low, mind you)

#

It's gone up since last year so the IPCC is a hoax, not like last year was the second lowest on record so going up is pretty likely

deep ravine
#

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

deep ravine
glossy sandal
#

How is getting vaccinated against a virus giving up liberties

#

They force you to get vaccinated for other things aswell, people only crying about covid vaccinations even though they're safe

#

Cuz people "on the other side" want it

mystic ermine
#

relatively safe? yes

#

Do they have their own set of complications and issues? also yes

#

Has the media over-hyped the risks? yes

#

has the media also tried to at the same point often shut down concerns that people have which just makes people more apprehensive? also yes

foggy fern
#

They were trying to tax people to pay for a militia

#

It's not about some metaphorical concept of liberty, it's fairly literal. Pay your taxes or the French will take your lands and you'll make no money at all

#

"Those who would give up [their lands to the French], to purchase [a veto on a tax bill]" etc

#

But yeah, you might like the phrase as being about a more generic concept but that's not what Franklin was talking about so attributing it to him is just appeal to authority

deep ravine
#

but why can't it be generalized? why does it have to be specific to that situation?

foggy fern
#

It can be but then it's just you saying it, not him 😛

#

I don't think he meant it to be such a broad statement

#

Not that it really matters anyway since it doesn't apply here anyway

shut vine
#

If a government can force you to do something for your own good in this instance why shouldn't they do something like that in other instances? For example smoking and liquor, gambling addictions; hey even something a lot closer to vaccinations.. medical procedures to keep you alive even if those procedures carry potential side effects or risks?

In my opinion that is not a very good policy in general if the reasoning that they're doing it for your own good is applied, it's completely and utterly flawed. People should make their own medical decisions unless they are not capable of doing so, and the government should never be the one making those decisions.

As far as protecting others, that's entirely a different situation. That's generally where the government sometimes has to get involved. Personally I'm vaccinated, and I'd probably recommend to anyone who asked my opinion to do the same. My feelings on the matter are if a person can be vaccinated and chooses not to be then they have made a choice to accept the risks of not being vaccinated. So the question is why does another person who also chose not to be vaccinated affect them since they already accepted the risk?

Regarding hospitals, I'd argue if you go to hospital with SARS-CoV-2, and are not vaccinated.. the tax payer should not foot any of that bill, and insurance companies should reasonably have the option of legal indemnity if they choose not to cover that visit. The idea that they should be able to kick you out if you don't have evidence of vaccination is fairly equivalent to kicking a person who needs a cancerous tumor removed that they knew about and had treatment options recommended to them if they don't have evidence of one of those treatment options being performed. i.e. it's an especially stupid idea.

near glen
#

Insurance has to cover

#

Else you get into other fun situations

#

You got sick cause you are fat? Should have done sport, we ain't paying

#

Everybody knows that being fat is unhealthy, they should have known better

shut vine
#

Yeah I'm fine with that too, to me that idea was more the most drastic measure, if that makes sense?

deep ravine
#

Couldn't a life insurance company have specific cases where they won't pay?

E.x. If you intentionally crash your car vs somebody crashing into you (Insurance companies don't pay in this case).

shut vine
#

Though you do highlight a very good point.

urban vector
#

Sounds like you're just punishing family for mistakes they didn't make

shut vine
#

Question is where does that line stop, for example smoking maybe?

#

How is family being punished?

near glen
#

That's not how the solidarity principle of insurances work

deep ravine
urban vector
#

and that's the problem with this situation you've devised - who on earth decides where to draw the line? i wouldn't trust anyone with that

tough cedar
#

some guy died of a heart attack the other day because all the hospitals are full

shut vine
tough cedar
#

so these peoples "decisions" are getting other people killed now

deep ravine
#

private life insurance companies can make that choice, and you pay for that plan, right?

shut vine
deep ravine
shut vine
#

Several people have died taking the vaccine, checkmate.

near glen
urban vector
#

Who do you think is gonna purchase insurance from an insurance company that might not do the literal one thing they exist for?

#

There's no market for insurance companies that won't provide insurance

covert yoke
#

I TOOK THE VACINE

#

nonoonononon

deep ravine
shut vine
near glen
#

Several people died after taking the vaccine and then running their car into a tree

covert yoke
#

im going to dieeeeee

#

noooooo

near glen
#

Does that mean the vaccine killed them?

covert yoke
#

im going to die

near glen
#

Shut up dogo

covert yoke
#

when i die tell my mom i loe her

#

tell my dog i love him more

dark crystal
#

._.

covert yoke
#

tell everybody im gay and too hide the bodies in the basement

#

lol

#

alr ima go back to my paper-help

dark crystal
#

we understood your joke

#

yes

#

do that

covert yoke
#

lol

near glen
#

Petition to age restrict this channel with ID proof

deep ravine
dark crystal
molten forge
#

Petition to age restrict this guild with ID proof

shut vine
# near glen Does that mean the vaccine killed them?

No it doesn't. There have been people who have actually died from the vaccine. My comment was more of an joke, it's an anecdote and highlights why making anecdotal arguments like someone died because hospitals are full is fallacious.

tough cedar
#

anecdotes cause policy change so /shrug

deep ravine
#

The argument is whether or not it is the governments place to mandate the vaccine, though

near glen
# deep ravine indirectly, yes

No, not even indirect. They died with the vaccine, not because of the vaccine. Same with "covid deaths". Germany doesn't track cause of death, just outcome of a covid infection. You either are health again or you are dead, but that doesn't mean you died because of covid.

tough cedar
#

if you not getting the vaccine is causing other people to die, it would seem the logical conclusion would be to make more people get vaccinated

near glen
tough cedar
#

why do other people need to suffer because you can't be bothered to get the vaccine? (royal you)

deep ravine
near glen
#

So yes, mandating a vaccine is a valid, but serious method to do that

#

Serious is the wrong word, you get what I mean

deep ravine
#

yeah

near glen
#

It's like a last stand kinda thing

deep ravine
#

"last stand" is def not the right word choice

near glen
#

And like, idk about the US, but we have vaccine mandates for other stuff

shut vine
near glen
#

That's way different as that would be individually

#

We have vaccine mandates against other stuff btw

shut vine
#

That's an interesting point, why does collective things like this change it, in your eyes?

#

Yeah makes sense, curious why it would be different when it's a collective thing like this. i.e. the specific argument that validates it.

deep ravine
restive seal
#

Well, when way too many people show themselves incapable of getting the vaccine because they'd rather believe there's some big global conspiracy...

shut vine
#

I would propose that just because something was done in the past, doesn't mean it's correct or the most effective. Good example is traditional saline solution.

near glen
#

I don't know the exact text

urban vector
#

Aren't you supposed to be pro-life CJ? Being against a thing that saves lives isn't very pro-life of you

shut vine
#

None of these are really arguments for why the reasoning should be different.

near glen
#

Let's see what google translate does to it

#

The Federal Ministry of Health is empowered to order by ordinance with the consent of the Bundesrat that parts of the population at risk are subject to vaccinations or other measures

#

Uff cut off

#

"The Federal Ministry of Health is empowered to order by ordinance with the consent of the Federal Council that threatened parts of the population have to take part in vaccinations or other measures of specific prophylaxis if a communicable disease with clinically severe forms occurs and its epidemic spread is to be expected. The basic right to physical integrity (Article 2, Paragraph 2, Clause 1 of the Basic Law) can be restricted in this respect"

#

Basic law = our constitution

shut vine
#

I don't really care what the government says. You claimed it's different, so you should have a basis for that belief.

#

If you don't, maybe you should be questioning it?

near glen
#

a) I trust my government and the experts that worked on laws like this and b) I already explained why I think it's not comparable to the example you presented?

#

Your example is arbitrariness for an individual

deep ravine
deep ravine
shut vine
#

My point is that just because you say everyone has to get a specific procedure done, that doesn't change the fact that the government shouldn't make that decision.

near glen
#

The government excersices the will of the people

#

In Germany it's the ministry of health together with the parliment

urban vector
#

I never said I was pro choice? I'm pro people not dying or being left with horrible circumstances or mental illnesses, which (at the moment and with current medicine) means getting an abortion is okay in my eyes in an awful lot of cases

near glen
#

It's fundamentally democratic

shut vine
urban vector
#

What on earth are you on about

#

I conflated "things that cause people to not die" with "things that cause people to not die"

#

christ i swear this channel makes me feel like ive accidentally warped back in time to my first year philosophy lectures sometimes

shut vine
#

Abortion causes people to not die?

urban vector
#

in some cases, yes

deep ravine
#

o.o

shut vine
#

Can you cite a single example where no one died in a successful abortion?

urban vector
#

When did you say no one

#

you said people

deep ravine
#

this is devolving slowly quickly

shut vine
#

Yeah I'm fine if animals die in an abortion and you have an example like that.

#

Provided it's a human abortion.

near glen
#

All that dies in an abortion is a mess of unfinished cells

#

That's hardly human live and treating it as such makes you look really funny

#

That's why abortions are only allowed in the first weeks, 12 or 14 in most countries

deep ravine
near glen
#

It's not live yet

deep ravine
#

It's certainly living.

near glen
#

That's scientific consent, lol

#

Consens

urban vector
#

This is like talking to someone who spends all their time trawling disboard for debate servers lmao - please read over what I'm saying here... I am valuing the life of someone who can currently sustain their own life above the life of someone who can't in those cases. Based on the logic that pro-lifer are pro-life because they don't want anything to have to die without consenting, I am saying that mandating vaccines literally achieves that exact same goal. If you catch COVID and die because someone else could've taken a vaccine but chose not to, that's not on you.

shut vine
#

Consensus isn't how science is done.

urban vector
#

what

#

got to be trolling

shut vine
#

Science is not proven by people taking a vote.

urban vector
#

do you think that is what mini meant when he said consensus

deep ravine
shut vine
#

The point is consensus is irrelevant.

urban vector
#

or do you think he meant a consensus of peer reviewed studies, articles and the weighted opinions of many, many experts in the field through the means mentioned earlier in the sentence

near glen
#

If multiple scientist, using scientific methods, come to the same conclusion, it's a consensus, no?

#

That's how science works

shut vine
#

Ah you mean that, gotcha.

near glen
#

What else would I mean?

#

Stop trying to twist everybodies words to fit your narrative

urban vector
#

Do you seriously think Mini thought that there's one big science convention where they all come and drop ballot papers in to decide what the science says this week?

shut vine
#

Well not necessarily, usually a scientific study is done, and then not replicated ever. At least historically. Though it varies depending on area of study.

#

Saline solution is an excellent example of this.

urban vector
#

What has that got to do with anything?

deep ravine
shut vine
#

Yeah I accept I misunderstood what he was saying, lets move on.

deep ravine
#

I highly doubt there is scientific consent because conciousness is more philosophical

near glen
#

I could cite papers, but that would involve work, it's mid night and am in bed

urban vector
#

Mini didn't say consciousness

deep ravine
#

No, but cells in a fetus are certainly living. I assume he means sentient.

urban vector
#

So you assumed

shut vine
#

Consciousness has been evident at about the 8 week mark, for reference.

#

Though varying studies had differing results. Some found 12 weeks.

restive seal
#

But what level of consciousness?

shut vine
#

Yeah, that cannot be measured easily.

near glen
#

Idk why people care so much about this

#

An ant is more intelligent than a few weeks old fetus and you kill them without wasting a thought

deep ravine
urban vector
#

I'm 100% convinced it is more around the 20 week mark and you are either misremembering or misattributing conciousness

restive seal
near glen
#

People did set an somewhat arbitrary limit of 12 or 14 weeks in some societies

shut vine
#

Okay good, wont even attempt to unwind your bias.

near glen
#

And that just works

urban vector
#

In fact yes, parts of the brain begin developing around 12 weeks but the actual brain activity that could be perceived as conscious thought does not happen until around 24 weeks (ofc assuming that even that is "conciousness")

shut vine
#

Yeah that's not at least insane.

#

It doesn't really matter if I personally disagree with it.

near glen
#

Brain activity starts at week 8, at insect level, 12 is when higher level stuff starts to be activated, the brain begins to actually work coordinated at week 24 is what I found here

#

Amp link but whatever

#

"We cannot say when consciousness first emerges, but it cannot rationally be called before the end of the second trimester at 24 weeks of pregnancy."

urban vector
#

first link on google by the way

#

for someone with such strong views you really don't seem to be all that informed on the topic you're discussing

shut vine
#

For someone with strong views, you don't seem very logical.

urban vector
#

gottem ?

shut vine
#

You also don't know how to read, interesting.

urban vector
#

that felt like a philosophers "no u"

deep ravine
#

But if we base solely on conciousness, you could be rightfully killed in your sleep, or in a coma.

near glen
#

Ah yes, whataboutism

#

I guess it's time for bed

urban vector
#

take a break, your arms must hurt from carrying these goalposts about all day long

near glen
#

Hint hint: we don't do abortions because we love killing, we do it to protect the mother in some shape or form, from either physical or mental harm

deep ravine
#

That should have been your argument, not the "All that dies in an abortion is a mess of unfinished cells"

shut vine
#

I'm for abortions in instances where it's to save a mothers life, i.e. physical harm. Not sure about the mental case, as I can't think of a reasonable situation.

near glen
#

Sorry if my take was too hot for you, but I can't reasonably call an fetus without even finished organs a human

faint radish
#

what most scientists say is correct doesnt always turn out to be correct
science (through the government) said forumla was better for babies than natural milk from moms,
science (through the government) said magarine was better for you than butter
science (through the government) said Thalidomide was a good way to treat nasuea in pregnant women

this has nothing to do with abortion specifically, but James is correct, science isnt about "consensus"

near glen
#

If a woman doesn't want a kid for whatever reason and they talked to a professional about it and it's within the first 14 weeks, just let her, who are you to stop herm

faint radish
#

you can go all the way back to the church and galileo on stuff like this

near glen
#

Science isn't static, science developers. You put out a thesis, prove it, others prove it, sometimes later somebody else might find a mistake for a better thesis, that's just how it works

shut vine
deep ravine
#

Well you cannot discredit all of science because it was wrong about a few things. We are all likely wrong to some degree, or at least don't have the information on everything.

urban vector
#

and who was it who proved those things were bad? pretty sure it was science :p

near glen
#

Science isn't foolproof but it's our best bet

shut vine
#

The article linked explicitly said that no one knows also.

deep ravine
#

Science is the best thing we have.. ^^

shut vine
#

Scientific guess is 24 weeks, according to that one article.

urban vector
#

"We cannot say when consciousness first emerges, but it cannot rationally be called before the end of the second trimester at 24 weeks of pregnancy."

near glen
#

If you don't want to do an abortion for your own pregnancy, you don't need to, but leave others alone

shut vine
#

Yeah as I said, I don't really have to agree with it.

#

It's not so bad that I feel like protesting.

near glen
#

I have two friends who had abortions, it's not fun. It physically hurts and the mentals never really go away, you always wonder about the what ifs. But they both agree it was the right choice.

deep ravine
near glen
#

The same people that are against abortions often are also against sex educations in schools, which is fun

restive seal
near glen
#

So they at least partially also fight prevention

#

And in both cases of my friends they used condoms and the pill, prevention is never 100%

restive seal
deep ravine
shut vine
#

Yeah, neither of those points apply to me.

near glen
#

It's mostly the religious people I guess

#

I lost all hope for those long ago, you can't just reason with people that pull the imaginary friend card to explain everything

shut vine
#

I feel like generally it's older people who grew up in a time where that wasn't talked about, but I have no evidence to back that.

near glen
#

One would assume that, ye

shut vine
#

Just from my personal experience.

#

Also yeah having a religion is fine, and I'd not mock anyone for believing. It's probably the most logical answer to existential things. That being said a religion is not really a decent way to make arguments. You have to both agree and believe in that religion for the argument to have any weight.

near glen
#

I mock people for believing if they don't leave me around with their shit, but then again, I am also an asshole

deep ravine
#

?

shut vine
#

I'd also like to make the point that attributing a persons reasoning to religion because they are religious is not a very good conclusion to make.

#

It's better to ask why a person has a particular view.

near glen
#

Of most directly list religion as the reason, they make the conclusion easy

#

"I don't need to take the vaccine, I am made from Jesus Christs blood, I am strong"

#

Ok Karen

deep ravine
#

give a few generations and better education.

shut vine
#

Yeah which is fine, but the smart way to handle someone who's doing that is to ask them to explain why they have their view. It's just more efficient and conducive to productive dialogue.

near glen
#

Sadly till then that generation will have destroyed the planet

shut vine
#

Oh yea

#

Those nutjobs lol

deep ravine
#

s to ask them to explain why they have their view
the answer to them is, "because jesus"..^

shut vine
#

Yeah which carries zero weight unless I believe in Jesus. Even if I did I'd not accept it as a valid argument.

near glen
#

We getting carried away from our original topic, and I gotta go sleep after this, but this captures my thoughts about religion really well

#

Man I love that show

shut vine
#

Watching.

#

lol

near glen
#

Sam esmail is a genius, in one of the first episodes he filters out the idiots of his viewers by featuring gay porn and then can continue to deliver an amazing show without those annoying people annoying anyone ^^

foggy fern
#

According to this the only thing new allowed now is to tell people if they get an Android phone things are cheaper over there

faint radish
#

It says In App right?

foggy fern
#

You can't link to an external payment system that works with your iOS app or set up a third party payment system inside your app

#

All you can do is tell people in the app that on Android or web things are cheaper

faint radish
#

So that’s even less of a win for epic than I originally thought

foggy fern
#

Yeah, he says The Verge and Daring Fireball both got this wrong, one said in app payments and the other said a link to a payment website were what was allowed now

#

Everyone else seems to have gone with one of those two interpretations too

#

They were all reading just the injunction rather than looking at the ruling itself too to see what the Judge says Apple actually did wrong

#

The only thing they accepted was an anti-steering argument

#

So in reality Apple won the whole case

faint radish
#

Is apple appealing? I still didn’t see anything about that

#

Yesterday you said you thought maybe they were

foggy fern
#

I think CNBC had a comment suggesting they were going to appeal the one (apparently extremely minor) bit they lost on

faint radish
#

I’m not sure why, from a PR perspective you’d want to

#

All the news makes people believe Apple lost, and they actually won

#

It’s like a dream scenario

foggy fern
#

I think the actual comment was that they were considering their options which is usually PR speak for appealing but not wanting to make statements about legal matters

#

Also all of this:

"Under all models, Apple would be entitled to a commission or licensing fee, even if IAP was optional." (page 67)

"Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that commission." (page 150)

"The Court also notes that in the but-for world where developers could use an alternative processor, Apple would still be contractually entitled to its commission on any purchase made within apps distributed on the App Store." (page 155)

#

So yeah, Epic got stomped

#

It does kind of sound like they would be allowed to sell you things via an external link but as shown above you'd still have to give Apple 30%

faint radish
#

Yeah, that’s what I was talking about yesterday that Apple can still take a cut

deep ravine
#

what do pro-choice people think about the argument of the fetus eventually being a fully functioning person, like all of us? I've never used the argument, since it seems more sentimental then logical.

foggy fern
#

That's baked in to my framework for whether/when abortion should be allowed, presumably it is for anyone else who hasn't just given a knee jerk yes/no answer on if abortion should be legal too

#

That goes along with the balancing test between bodily autonomy vs right to life

dark crystal
foggy fern
#

At some point the right to life side outweighs the bodily autonomy side and abortion is no longer acceptable

dark crystal
#

but yeah the rest of it sucks

foggy fern
#

For you that's 0 weeks (aside from rape/health cases?), for some people that's 12, 16, or 24 weeks, the ones who say it should be allowed past 24 weeks for anything other than the health of the mother I don't agree with although I can see how you could believe that

deep ravine
#

extreme health scenarios (mental or physical) (so yes, rape/health cases)

#

But I've thought of the argument that WE weren't aborted, we've benefitted from that luck of the draw, isn't it a shame that we are missing out on that human potential? I don't think the argument works in a debate, but it's food for thought

foggy fern
#

That's the kind of emotional appeal you'd make to the pregnant person, it shouldn't have any bearing on the legality

deep ravine
#

I agree

tough cedar
#

guess they're going to try and convince manchin and sinema to support filibuster reform?

loud flax
#

pro-choice is an easy argument if you don't already have a worldview that suggests every life is precious, such as Christianity

#

since without religion, everything is arbitrary, might as well just do whatever you want

mystic ermine
loud flax
#

but religious people can act stupidly, and i'm not ruling myself out of that possibility XD

urban vector
mystic ermine
#

I mean, every religious person I know flouts the rules consistently

#

(be that of the religious book itself or the societal sorta like, environment, that the book created)

#

Small sample size given that religion is kinda dying on the mainstream out here, but, muslims I know generally drink and party, my bestie is a lebian too, which, 10/10, smokes bud, etc; back in uni in her like dorm, she had two highly religious christian friends, and one of them by the end of uni was apparently boinking a married man on the side

loud flax
#

i try to be a good christian, and honesty is something i hold with high regard, even if there were a chance it would hurt me for being honest (unless it was a situation that would get me killed, but honestly i would leave that up to the situation, don't really think i can make any judgments right now in that case)

mystic ermine
#

Religions are always weird to me

loud flax
#

though i'd more likely die for my faith than i would get killed for being honest if it had nothing to do with salvation, lol

mystic ermine
#

In part, I feel that they where probably tools to enforce rules across a large swathe of land otherwise invisible man in the sky will send you down to hell

#

But, I mean, I'd imagine that many religions especially the older ones where heavily humans, or what they came to, trying to justify and understand the world around them

loud flax
#

you said BOINKING, hahaha

mystic ermine
#

Like, I don't think that a new "true" religion could start these days until it was 100% "earth bound" in nature, e.g. more of a "we should be good to one another" than an actual "lets worship another man in the sky"

#

||(inb4 some rednecks prove me wrong)||

loud flax
#

sounds like humanism

swift shale
#

so Satanism?

loud flax
#

atheistic religion, lol

#

if one could call it that

mystic ermine
#

I mean, I was kinda looking at humanism and buddism years ago, got my head all tizzy and moved on

loud flax
#

hey cat, what would you say if you discovered that christianity brought the most innovation and cultural change? would you think different about it?

mystic ermine
#

I think having a belief system is important to humans, and religion is a massive clutch towards that

#

No

#

Don't get me wrong, religion has done some good in the world but it's also been at the tip of many of the horrors in the world too

loud flax
#

or would you think that it was a coincidence, that these people did this while also being christian?

mystic ermine
#

as I've said before, religion is complex because it comes from two hands

#

On the one side, you have the good teachings of the bible and such which I think anybody with an ounce of moral fibre would get behind and support

#

on the other side, there are certain aspects towards many religions which are like, "you must follow this otherwise you'll be cast to eternal torture" and such

loud flax
#

are you on the side that christianity creates bad people?

mystic ermine
#

No

#

I mean, I question the origin of many of these things, especially 2000 years on, who knows what really happened during that time?

loud flax
#

i like your attitude toward christianity, a lot more mellow than i'd think an atheist would be towards it

#

or, idk what you are, that's just a guess

mystic ermine
#

My question generally is how did many of these religions formed, cos I worry that they where generally created by man, e.g. we're not reading a printing created by god, we're reading a book created by followers of a man who was the son of god

loud flax
#

well for christianity there is one important question for us, did Jesus rise from the dead?

#

if not, then christianity isn't valid

#

because that means Jesus wasn't who he said he was

mystic ermine
#

I mean, that's part of the joys is that we'll probably never know, and I honestly believe that if there was some magical conclusive evidence that christianity is a huge scam, such info would basically magically turn into a "conspiracy theory", I think that the core values of many religions intend to be sound, but, I think that they exhert a massive amount of control over people, and yes, some of that is inheriently to steer people into good, but, it also puts them in a sorta like "saviour" position, we'll cleanse your soul and purge the land of heathens type stuff; Not exactly, but, PP protests, etc, etc; But, I mean, many people bank their days on religions like christianity, something which many people with MH issues who've been suicidal have said religion has saved them, my mate even started to hammer harder on her religion as her health issues where getting worse as some ploy towards getting better, it's highly naunanced and I'd kinda love to see a world without religion and the issues it causes, but, getting rid of religion overnight would be a disaster, imho

restive seal
loud flax
#

i'm not saying it is, but that was in context to the pro-choice argument

deep ravine
#

Christianity has a value system, and society has a value system. Whether you are religious or not, if you are brought up in an organized society you are probably taught a value system. You don’t need to be religious to have a value system.

#

I’m highly skeptical of Christianity, because how narcissistic do you have to be to demand every follow you, and elevate you to the status of “Son of God”

foggy fern
#

I mean, yeah, read the bible, god is a jealous and narcissistic asshole most of the time

loud flax
#

would you follow Caesar, or Jesus?

near glen
near glen
#

If you follow a person it's a cult, and we don't need that kinda stuff because it just makes you blind

#

Regardless if it's religious or like political or whatever

loud flax
#

so you say the bad outweighs the good, well i figure that's the narrative nowadays

#

;\

#

i'm referring specifically to christianity, not other religions

#

i have no reason to believe my church is lying everytime we sing praises to God/Jesus

urban vector
#

that's the strangest thing ive ever heard someone say in defense of religion

loud flax
#

well my dad did some research and gave a lecture early last year on what if Jesus had never been born, and found that there is a slew of contributions, even rivaling the greeks, things that we take for granted today even... take from that what you will i guess

near glen
#

What ifs going back 2000 years are not really scientific, lol

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There have been tons of influences, tons of wars, etc, it's impossible to know what if

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And don't forget that Christianity isn't the only religion

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It wasn't the first, it wasn't the last, it's not special in any way

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People in control created Religions to explain things they couldn't explain

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Nowadays we got a way deeper understanding of the nature around us so that that usecase isn't needed anymore

loud flax
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i've heard that come from another atheist before, the "we can't know for sure who did what contribution, etc."

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but for example, harvard's founding, as an example, came from a christian, and the original purpose was biblical literacy (there's even a stone in harvard yard explaining its purpose)

near glen
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As I said, religion had it's purpose

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But it is no longer needed

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Now it's hindering progress

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And as with everything that hinders progress, we should get rid of it

loud flax
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so

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i think you'd be a good critic of my dad's work, see where his flaws are. He's a scholar, so he's aware of critical thinking when it comes to researching topics

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but that probably wouldn't happen

near glen
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Well, if there's a paper I can get on sci-hub send me the DOI

loud flax
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its a video lecture

near glen
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But again, I don't see the use in doing what ifs like that

loud flax
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well he goes into the history of the whole thing, i guess as much as can be discerned

near glen
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It's similar to the "we have always done it this way" argument. Just because something made sense in the past doesn't mean we should continue doing it today, you gotta reevaluate all the time

loud flax
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yeah but if it worked then it ought to work now

near glen
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I am well aware of the history and stuff, I have been active in the church for all my childhood, I was a altar server and later organized all the youth stuff, my mom is a catechist, my best friend studies religion

loud flax
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but yeah, there are parts of it that aren't pretty, life isn't always pretty

near glen
loud flax
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ah interesting

near glen
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Just because a Formular worked with one set of inputs doesn't mean it will continue to work with entirely different inputs

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But basically, I have seen everything in the church I need to see and I am disgusted by it and want to see it dead. Religion itself I don't mind as long as they leave others alone.

loud flax
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so trying to convert people is a no go for you

near glen
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Do you like vegans trying to convert you?

loud flax
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see i wouldn't be ok with people trying to force it down others' throats, because that isn't about freedom at all

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well they can tell me what they know about veganism

near glen
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Thats how the rest of the world feel about christians trying to force their way of thinking onto others

loud flax
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interestingly enough a family member is vegan, and i'm vegetarian, heh

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i think some JWs came to our doors before

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that's fine and all, but I'd politely tell them i'm not interested

near glen
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They are fun 😂

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I talked to them once at my parents, now they skip our house, idk why 😂 😂

loud flax
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lol

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well damn it to hell if the catholic church is ruining it for other christians 😦

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not like other faiths have it much better for some things

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anyways i should go to bed, night mini

near glen
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All organized religion is the same, the Catholic church is just a prominent example

blazing junco
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They're ready to warp their religion to anything just for a bit of control.

near glen
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Yeah

near glen
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Speaking about the church, I just got send this

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"The bishop, a great supporter of practicing exorcisms, would have suffered the reverse process in one of them, favored by the fact that his lover, Silvia Caballol, divorced, writes not only erotic but also satanic novels."

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You can't make up shit like that 😂

woven reef
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Our synod went through a really rough patch when a lot of the racial equality stuff happened in 2020 since there are a lot of questionable characters

loud flax
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i could make the same argument governments like to control, and have, so i'm not sure what the point is, should we get rid of governments too?

near glen
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Governments are given that power by the people

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The pope gets that power from whom?

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God? 😂

loud flax
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yes, so the people should be gotten rid of, they give power to such bad governments!!!

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lol

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my church has had a very interesting history when it comes to our views on the catholic church, let's just say the pope isn't seen very much as a saintly person

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now for what little i know of the current pope, he's tried to change things around

near glen
near glen
loud flax
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let me ask you something though

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do you have a high degree of trust in the german people who, about a century ago, somehow let a madman rule germany? I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I figure the question is appropriate

urban vector
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how is it appropriate

loud flax
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in the same way I can say that my own government and people, about half a century earlier or more, thought it was ok for segregation to exist in society

urban vector
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do you believe that this is at all relevant or that "the german people" are at all the same group of people with the same opinions as a century ago

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and do you also believe that they voted with 100% knowledge of the stuff that ended up happening?

near glen
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Well, the question is valid, Hitler was able to turns a democracy into one of the worst dictatorships

loud flax
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i once asked an atheist if they thought slavery would ever be viewed the same way or be accepted like it once was, and they figured that if the majority wanted it, then it would be ok

near glen
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Which is why it is important to teach stuff like this, to remember how exactly it happened so it can be prevented in the future

loud flax
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@urban vector i take it your assumption is that people are only going to get better

urban vector
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why are you assuming that?

near glen
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For Germany in particular it can't happen again cause our new constitution doesn't have such loopholes

loud flax
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because you wrote my question off as inappropriate

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i'm coming from the perspective that people can't really be trusted, but we've somehow managed to not have a third world war yet, so i'll give the world that one 🙂

near glen
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If you say people can't be trusted, you question the very fundament of democracy

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The only times we saw democracy fail, it was always related to preexisting conditions (the burden of the reparations for WW1 for example), missinformation and badly written constitutions

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The preexisting conditions is hard to combat, missinformation has to be fought with education (this is the most important stuff) and our laws and constitutions got better as humanity matured, learning from mistakes is a powerful thing

loud flax
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well the whole "can't be trusted" is the reason for safeguards, like government and laws, i think those are put in place for that very reason

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and is the reason sports have umpires/referees, etc.

near glen
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A referee is like a government. All players agreed to give them the power

loud flax
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and i very much hope you are correct that germany could never reach the conditions that existed before

near glen
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Well, it can, just like any other country can, just the cause will be different

loud flax
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i don't have much allegiance when it comes to germany, as i am also german myself, but i still feel for what germany went through (i was never born there, 3rd generation american on dad's side, but i think it was either opa or oma that was born in germany)

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i think opa

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in fact i don't even speak german but my dad does

near glen
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Something is weird, you say you are also German yourself? You mean you have a German heritage, but you don't have German nationality, right?

loud flax
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i guess that is what i mean, i don't live there nor was i born there

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i'm told i am 7/8ths german

near glen
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Well, as far as I am concerned, it's binary, you either are a German and have a German passport, or you are not ^^

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But I see now

loud flax
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i see

faint radish
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You can’t be from somewhere and say you are something if you don’t have a passport to back it up?

loud flax
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i find that strange too

near glen
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The definition of being German is having a German passport, no?

rich sun
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Not to me; "I am x" can mean "I am genetically x" as much as it can "I live in the country of x"

near glen
faint radish
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thats pretty closed minded or smth, there millions of people living in the US who identify as being Mexican, or one of other zillion backgrounds yet have no citizenship in that country

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if you have to be a german citizen to be called "German"... well

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also, relying on a piece of paper to re-enforce who you are, is also not great

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no one here is speaking legally, obviously legal definitions are much different from everyday ones

loud flax
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would it be fine in your opinion to say i have german blood, mini?

near glen
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Sure, you got a German heritage

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Idk what other definition you would use for declaring somebody German if not the citizenship?

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You can live in another country and still have German citizenship

blazing junco
near glen
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Meh

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That removes that label from people who immigrated here to start a new live

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They are Germans too, altho they aren't of that ethnicity

weary lake
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Taking into account ethnicity doesn't necessarily have to mean disregarding everything other than ethnicity.

foggy fern
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Only 'American' doesn't make me think of a certain ethnicity although I suppose some of that is just because I live here

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I think the US is the only place where we all talk about where our ancestors are from like it matters for us too 😛

loud flax
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have you guys heard of a european white woman who wanted to be black and so got tanning injections and was given an african name and who now identifies as black?

foggy fern
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If it's possible someone has done it so I guess I'm not really surprised

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Similar treatments were suggested for me when I was a kid and found out I have vitiligo

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Although they said I should wait until I was an adult and see if the spots keep spreading before looking in to something like that

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I went the other route instead, I get so little sun you can barely tell the difference between the spots and the rest of me 😄

loud flax
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would you think it would be appropriate to identify as black?

foggy fern
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In the US identifying as black has a lot of other factors but give it a few days and they'll get the full black experience so sure 😛

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In Europe I was under the impression being black didn't matter as much

blazing junco
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I said that someone who's german ethnically but has no passport and hasn't visited the country is still german

shut vine
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That obviously doesn't mean it will be abused, but there is always a chance. But that's how the executive branch is now allowed to order things of the public that would otherwise be unconstitutional.

loud flax
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@near glen curious, but do you trust the german people to do what's in your best interest?

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that question should probably have been pointed at the government, since that's more relevant, so perhaps you could answer from both the german people and government

faint radish
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K, it’s a little funny that AOC wore a dress that said Tax the Rich to…. The Met Gala

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I think tickets to the met gala are like $30,000

dusky raft
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@faint radish by that, she means anyone richer than her

mystic ermine
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Bernie: "The millionares and the billionares!"
few years later
Bernie: "The billionares!"

foggy fern
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I doubt she paid to get in

restive seal
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To quote a redditor

You can have money and still advocate for taxing the rich. She's been pretty consistent on that point.

foggy fern
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The people complaining about her inefficient vehicle and wasteful security detail could help make those problems go away if they convinced their audience to stop threatening her

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Yeah, like Warren Buffet

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Although I doubt she's anywhere close to rich anyway, if she bought a house anywhere in the DC area between that and her student loans she is probably over $1m in debt instead

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Ocasio-Cortez reported assets of between $2,003 and $31,000 in her most recent financial disclosure, filed in September 2020, and student loan debt between $15,000 and $50,000.

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Oh right the Tesla is probably a lease so that wouldn't count as debt or asset I guess

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I wonder if this is a campaign thing for her and that's how it's getting paid for

faint radish
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oh, on another AOC topic, didnt she tweet that Roe v Wade has officially been overturned?

foggy fern
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The dress is probably "on loan"

faint radish
loud flax
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O_O

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that's a big decision

faint radish
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well, as Amaranth said, roe v wade hasnt been the law of the land for a minute or two

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AND this had absolutely nothing to do with abortion or any merits of a case

foggy fern
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Everyone references Roe though

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The people trying to ban abortion, the people trying to save it, the people trying to tell you about those other two, your parents, etc

faint radish
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millions of ... lives are sacrificed for far-right minority rule. because the court said they didnt have standing to bring the case?

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I think the SCOTUS is gonna look at that Mississippi(?) law in a few months right?

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now that could change things

foggy fern
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TIL the way they detect "cardiac activity" in the fetus at 6 weeks is by sticking a wand up your vagina

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It's not done through your belly

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I don't understand how an abortion clinic doesn't have standing to sue about this law though

faint radish
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because they arent the ones affected by the law

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itll be when someone sues someone for getting an abortion

foggy fern
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Yes they are...

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The pregnant person isn't the one getting sued, it's everyone who helped them

faint radish
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thats right, but they have to be sued by someone first and challenge that

foggy fern
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That's not normally how that works

faint radish
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is what I meant to say

foggy fern
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If a law is meant to restrict your actions in a way you don't consider constitutional you're supposed to be able to challenge it preemptively

faint radish
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yeah it is, A public college implements a rule saying you cant hold a protest, you try to hold a protest, they shut you down, and then you challenge it.

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so you wait for someone to sue, and then you challenge it

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at least Im pretty sure thats how it works at least some of the time