Oh god you need to revisit history lessons
#politics
near glen
Hitler's ideology literally was everybody else sucks and we gotta claim land for our German race
glossy sandal
Is there like a website you guys go to that generate random shit for you to spew in chats
Maybe I should make that and run ads and make money
Is wikipedia only a good source when you cite it or
near glen
Do you check them daily for edits? 😂
glossy sandal
Who else do you run them by to know that you aren't biased yourself
In picking the articles
near glen
Obviously
dark crystal
this guy is the CEO of wikipedia, guys
glossy sandal
Cant be
dark crystal
he knows what's correct
glossy sandal
Black pfp spewer of politics channel in minecraft discord for fishing arguments cannot be biased!
near glen
It's an alt that was created for this channel nomana
near glen
You contradict yourself all the time without even noticing and ignore our arguments
glossy sandal
It's probably that one guy that was here like a few weeks ago that also had a folder of inspirational Facebook pictures and a word document of random links to cite when he picks battles
That got banned
Just like the other guy did 
dark crystal
hitler was as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic 
near glen
I just wish right wing trolls would be at least funny
dark crystal
I just wish right wing trolls would be at least funny
the invisible hand of the free market is indicating a shortage of comedy on right wing trolls, unfortunately
can't do anything about it
near glen
But making jokes requires intelligence
dark crystal
social help is bad!!! /s
glossy sandal
I am actually a fascist according to a very correct political alignment test
so jokes on you
near glen
For germanies political compass am actually kinda right 😂
glossy sandal
when were we talking about you
rich sun
For germanies political compass am actually kinda right 😂
The terms "left" and "right" in America have devolved into "who do you hate more? Trump or Biden?"
they have no actual bearing on beliefs
near glen
Can I hate both?
dark crystal
fun fact, left and right mean absolutely nothing
rich sun
Can I hate both?
yeah, that's what centered means here
dark crystal
nationalism can be right wing in some countries and left in others
glossy sandal
All i see is mini talking about his alignment
oh thats good
atleast you can tell the difference between communism and captialism
daring locust
????
dark crystal
didn't you say hitler was a communist? why wouldn't he want equality then? equality of outcome, right?
near glen
They clearly have no power in capitalist America
dark crystal
you're putting nazism against communism yet you said they were the same
near glen
Hitler wanted woman to stay in the kitchen, lmao
rich sun
think of not letting a guy on the internet who doesn't listen to anyone else tell me how to think of things
warm ibex
like alex jones podcast?
glossy sandal
I am 99% sure this is the dude that got banned a few weeks ago for doing just this
dark crystal
Ben Shapiro
near glen
Considered listen to facts and arguments?
rich sun
although, he does change his mind a lot, so that might have changed since then 
dark crystal
Did you know trans people are one of the groups who most suffer from inequality in our society?
near glen
Would you rank it higher or lower than the 35 Million Americans who experience hunger daily?
dark crystal
so like, what does the invisible hand of the free market have to help them on that?
vs the social help you've been considering useless throughout this chat?
near glen
Kek
Waaaaatr
That's the most stupid thing I heard the whole year
Markets encourage equality? Lmfao
Markets encourage inequality
dark crystal
so, race, sex and gender do not matter as long as there is profit?
rich sun
...for as much money as possible
near glen
Well, my beer is out
Do I get another one or do you sleep?
I don't feel like this is getting more fun
dark crystal
so, race, sex and gender do not matter as long as there is profit?
so what if there's no real incentive to seek profit from these people?
what is their worth?
I don't know, you tell me
daring locust
nazi germany
far left
?
rich sun
yeah Logics4 I don't think made sense either, might wanna rephrase that
dark crystal
You:
your goal is to sell as many as your products to make the most profit
that means you will have to try to sell to everyone
no matter race, sex, gender, etc.
me:
so, race, sex and gender do not matter as long as there is profit?
so what if there's no real incentive to seek profit from these people?
what is their worth?
this question makes a lot of sense to me
glossy sandal
how do you know so much about north korea 
I see how you have your hot takes now
wikipedia, youtube
tough cedar
well academia is biased to the left so
glossy sandal
maybe a few forums here and there
tough cedar
that's the only way to get info
tough cedar
gab?
dark crystal
what was that far right app called that was like twitter
/pol/
warm ibex
thedonald.win
daring locust
parler bro
tough cedar
oh yea parler lmao
glossy sandal
yes
near glen
No, the social responsibility is to pay fair wages and pay taxes
tough cedar
lmao now thaat it's gone i forgot its name
near glen
Tac is theft, lmao
tough cedar
back to playing interrdimensional chess
near glen
How the fuck is tax theft
tough cedar
no
dark crystal
interesting that you play chess, which implies there is a monarch, who is a figure of State, while being anarchocapitalist
I'd rather have an elected prime-minister every 4 years, thank you
near glen
If my pawns aren't gay I don't wanna play that game, smh
dark crystal
rather than no government at all
near glen
Trolls don't understand humor machine maker
dark crystal
they should make the chess pieces blue and red, so it's liberals vs conservatives
tough cedar
i like that idea logics
near glen
they should make the chess pieces blue and red, so it's liberals vs conservative...
And when the king dies he has to scream "this game way stolen!"
tough cedar
make a change.org petition
faint radish
has a single change.org petition ever done smth?
dark crystal
make a change.org petition
just make a stylus theme for chess.com
but open source projects don't bring any profit, do they?
mystic ermine
Your violent game turned my son into a murderer!
open source projects don't bring any profit
faint radish
how do castles move? last I checked, they were pretty stationary
mystic ermine
Well, depends on the financial modeling
dark crystal
but when a socialist owns an iphone that's suddenly relevant, right?
mystic ermine
ubuntu is open source, that still pulls in cash, a nice amount last I knew too
dark crystal
ubuntu is open source, that still pulls in cash, a nice amount last I knew too
yeah it was supposed to be a joke, i forgot the /s sorry
daring locust
it's almost like there was a joke to be made
mystic ermine
open source is comical from a monetary perspective, however
faint radish
#chess channel when?
mystic ermine
you have stuff like openssl which was massively underfunded to the degree that it turned into a massive security nightmare
taxation is theft
near glen
Bye troll o/
mystic ermine
that's dumb, how else would government fund multi million dollar public toilets?
warm ibex
go masturbate to the stock market
near glen
I would approve of an america without taxes
Then they couldn't ruin the world by playing world police with their military 😂 😂
glossy sandal
i love nationalist america better
mystic ermine
USA spins up the money printer
warm ibex
but they're bring freedom and democracy to those uncivilized savages
tough cedar
i dont think i like nationalist america
glossy sandal
As a fellow fascist, I feel the world has been boring enough recently
near glen
but they're bring freedom and democracy to those uncivilized savages
By removing democratic leaders in the middle east 😂
mystic ermine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3jcmFNxRzQ | JUST BRINGING DEMOCRACY TO THE WORLD
glossy sandal
I think america should expand to the whole of north america
dusky raft
@glossy sandal hit two birds with one stone, we reduce our border size and the migrant crisis no longer exists.
foggy fern
I think america should expand to the whole of north america
Last time the US thought that someone burned down the White House
mystic ermine
in our defence, fire warm and nice
loud flax
@shy gulch I think it would help us if you mentioned who you are and what experiences had you become an ancap, might make your arguments have more context because you are pretty polar opposite to most the people in here talking, so.... might be helpful to do
but you also believe in God, and so do I and I'm republican conservative as far as my politics (if I have any) go, and I've had a good upbringing
blazing junco
That was a fun read
It was interesting seeing this guy say that poor people are lazy and that's why they're poor
peak paper politics
torn wadi
Being poor is expensive.
torn wadi
Time to make a micronation on an old oil rig then.
near glen
No
All energy sources should be renewable
No mining or producing
Nothing stops you from going 100% renewable
Nuclear isn't renewable
You forgot wind
Wind is the easiest
No it doesn't kill birds
Check the studies
torn wadi
Cars kill way more birds.
near glen
More birds run into windows than die to wind turbines
Or don't and check studies
Don't take anyones word, "I've heard" is a terrible way to start an argument
They do funky stuff to the blades nowadays to reduce noise and keep birds away too
But basically, wind is a nice way to generate electricity
Pretty sure it's the biggest single contributor to our electric grid in germany
Meanwhile Germany makes so much energy that our grid would collapse without a global energy market 😂
We just build a giant line to Norway so that they can store our clean energy in their pump storage plants
torn wadi
You mean coal right?
near glen
To reduce the strain in the grid
Blame the manufacturers for not investing early enough
And the government for not guiding them
In germany government still subsidizes diesel 😂
In 2021
Fucking diesel
torn wadi
Dacia and Renault have cheap AF electric cars. Mostly for city driving, but at least they look normal.
near glen
Imagine if you took all that money and put it into research on better batteries
torn wadi
15k€ for a NEW car.
near glen
My dad brought a 1 year old Nissan leaf for 20k
That car rocks
Can go anywhere with that
You also aren't the target audience yet
It will trickle down
All car makers have set dates when they will stop producing last gen cars
Most car makers shut down their engine design for last gen engines
torn wadi
That they probably won't meet.
near glen
Oh chances are they will stop sooner krusic
torn wadi
Not VW.
torn wadi
Development.
They don't really have to do anything till at least 2025 and even then, just go to Renault or Yamaha for an engine.
near glen
Audi said they will launch their last combustion engine in 2026 and produce their last combustion engine car in 2033
I bet it's gonna happen way earlier
And talk to your representatives
Cause that's the driving factor: cities will ban combustion cars
torn wadi
Probably wont due to light commercial vehicles and first gen batteries going to 🗑️.
near glen
States will not allow you get licence plates for new combustion cars
First gen batteries get reused already krusic
There's this stadium in Amsterdam I think that has the whole basement filled with Nissan leaf battery packs and solar on the roof and they can do a whole concert at night off grid
Once the batteries are dead for a car, you still got 70-80% of capacity
Good enough for applications like thst
torn wadi
Leafs actually had ok batteries.
near glen
That depends on your roof and how much you paid for energy and how much you get for putting energy into the grid
Generally it takes a few years till you turn a profit
The larger your roof the quicker you make a profit
It's a literal money printer tho
torn wadi
They have big modules that you can easily replace. On the other hand, car makers that went will smaller cells like 18650... those just turn into a huge scam after they leave their cars.
near glen
Aldi and netto, big supermarket chains, suddenly started to put solar on all their roofs in a few years. Not because they care about the environment, but because some controller took out a spreadsheet and did the math
It would be insane to not use such perfect roofs
With an RIO of like 8 years, and a life span of like 20, it's a money printer
My dad had his for 8 year or so now and never had to fix anything
Only clean them
You just go to a contractor and he will handle everything
Also do the maths with you and stuff
At least they do that here
But why would you
To run your own ISP you gotta be a huge network nerd
And there's like not much benefit
torn wadi
Depends on where you live.
near glen
Balkan ISP wen
torn wadi
Already made IPKO.
nimble geode
UK is better than america in every way possible
torn wadi
No, I don't think so.
upper karma
UK is better than america in every way possible
👀
nimble geode
this is gonna wind ppl up
upper karma
Yes indeed
nimble geode
No, I don't think so.
it is
torn wadi
We removed the below 22€ import tax rule that we had. So now you have to pay import tax on everything.
And to make it better, they allow the use of third party importers... but you have to pay state import at least 10€+work+shipping to pass it to another one. Very epic.
And the state one, now does even less work, since they require you to find the import tax yourself now (and if you select the wrong one, you are legally responsible), but they still charge you for their work.
So for a 5€ package, I now have to pay 22% tax, some arbitrarily % import tax, at least 2 work hours of the import tax people, 10€ for processing and shipping again. Very based.
daring locust
real scam bro!
zinc saffron
uk #1 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧
zinc saffron
ikr
wicked atlas
Go back to coding
zinc saffron
make me
daring locust
wrong channel 😬
near glen
you did quote that already and we did laugh at that already
blazing junco
You skip a lot of steps with "I got a job and started working". When this "I got a job and started working" makes you work 40 hours a week with you earning mere pennies and not being able to live on it, you'll be mentally exhausted. Really easy to say "but just keep working! You'll get there!" when you're not incapacitated by hard labor or by working all day long to bring any food to the table(and that food likely isn't healthy).
And this is completely ignoring the leap in "just get a job" which isn't as easy as you might think
Golly, why don't people think of that?
Shit, everyone must be a dumbass. Just have the work ethic!
Or maybe because you haven't tried it and have no idea what it's like lol
You literally sent a quote by a guy saying he did x and earned y
That's also anectodal evidence
My bad
I swapped the first and last name
lol
You are taking isolated cases
Of people going from nothing to rich
Which rarely happens
And there's WAY more of rags to a little less rags.
You just don't hear about them as often.
Mate, they're already working 40 hours a week. Wanting them to work MORE to earn a living is INSANE
broken raven
40 hours is not a lot
broken raven
ye, not a lot
blazing junco
And this all depends on the work you do too
Yeah there's people who work two or three jobs
Should we make that the standard to earn a living?
broken raven
9 to 6 or 9 to 5 is like 7-8 hours
broken raven
Should we make that the standard to earn a living?
in many cases people dont have a choice, like in india
blazing junco
Do you honestly think people should work more than 40 hours a week to make a decent living?
loud flax
seems like i share a similar view with you here Refreshment, except it needs more qualifying in my case
blazing junco
Ouch
broken raven
Do you honestly think people should work more than 40 hours a week to make a dec...
i honestly cannot give an opinion on that
NO
blazing junco
So a full time job for you isn't enough
broken raven
going to work
blazing junco
to earn a living
loud flax
i think everyone is a potential elon musk according to their own talents which may not be realized or utilized in the right way
blazing junco
I'm hearing that what is defined as a full time job shouldn't be enough to earn a living
blazing junco
i think everyone is a potential elon musk according to their own talents which m...
You forgot to sprinkle in a bucket full of luck
loud flax
elon is not going to be a head chef because i don't think he's good at the culinary arts, so if you want to make sense with your position Refreshment, at least make some acknowledgements like this
well, i suppose
the luck part being your talents are realized by others?
blazing junco
Because some people can go their entire lives trying to market the best ideas they have and still fail
loud flax
i guess that's part of it
blazing junco
No shit? To be a successful businessman you're gonna need a groundbreaking idea?
Why didn't you say so?
Next you're gonna tell me the sky is blue.
loud flax
there's a TED talk I saw, brilliant TED talk that mentions kids' annoying behaviors being redirected to achieve success using those qualities that are typically annoying if left untouched
loud flax
someone who causes a lot of mischief in school might be a great orator, for example
blazing junco
because they're working two jobs to eat?
Get jobs to afford college in the US?
Without any loans?
Oh
Anecdote
Yes. You'll find that all of them make above 30k a year right
Or they got financial aid lol
Also most people wakes up at 9 for a 9-5
you're forgetting commutes
you know what's bothering me about all of this
in your opinion - to earn a living wage people have to work MORE than is required of them and have to WORK INSANELY HARD to achieve an education
A full time job should earn you a living. Period.
Why?
It's a full time job.
Are you proposing that US citizens should start working like the Chinese?
Would you like me to remind you of the suicide nets Apple implemented in their sweatshops in China?
tough cedar
congrats
the government steals, what's new
we already know this
they steal your money under the threat of force
blazing junco
but it shouldn't have to tho
government shouldn't need to give you shit. raise the minimum wage, everyone earns a basic living. Want more? go work your ass harder
tough cedar
^^^
blazing junco
that's all there is to it
tough cedar
I'd rather have a higher min wage than have a 'gov handout'
yea, that's how it works
that's how it works in every single place in the world
blazing junco
Do you like roads?
tough cedar
congrats, you just described the modern world
ancient depot
You would get fired real fast
blazing junco
The market has adapted. Everyone's being paid that.
Nope.
No minimum wage.
1 dollar. Take it or leave it.
Guy down the road also offers only 1 dollar.
And the other guy. And everyone.
tough cedar
no, you get paid 1 dollar an hour because the company decided that's what your labor is worth
blazing junco
You don't deserve shit. I want my business to succeed and i want you to make less money because that makes me more money.
tough cedar
because there is no minimum wage
tough cedar
why? why don't i just make my brother a manager instead refreshment?
and then you continue to make 1 dollar an hour
blazing junco
No, they won't
They'll just replace you
Because all the talent has to work there
At 1 dollar an hour
That's the rate
tough cedar
Lol can't replace a hard worker with a lazy bum that's hilarious
blazing junco
Well no minimum wage.
tough cedar
saw that too often in retail
hard worker leaves, lazy bum is now employed
'lazy bum'
blazing junco
Why would anyone compete for you? With no minimum wage they'll set the bar to something insanely low and you'll work your ass off for something less insanely low.
tough cedar
absolutely hilarious
blazing junco
30 cents an hour. You're lucky, great worker. Enjoy your 1 dollar an hour
Yeah but the minimum wage doesn't exist
So they can realistically pay you an unliveable wage
And you'll still work it
See north korea
lol
you're not as irreplaceable as you might think you are
tough cedar
what do you even do
blazing junco
so does everyone
tough cedar
because companies collude to keep them high that's why
blazing junco
basically that
lobbyists, whatever
refreshment
Do you understand that if there's no minimum wage companies can play you like a bitch
tough cedar
what do you even do, what is your profession
loud flax
tbh we're giving our due as we are renting from the government to live in the US, perhaps you could look at it like that?
tough cedar
cognitive dissonance is setting in, retreat!
loud flax
well idriz, you say luck, but can you attribute that to a constant?
I.E. if THIS happens then a hard working person can be successful
loud flax
yeah there's the reality that we have to contend with too
blazing junco
you might win a billion dollars in a scratch card but that doesn't mean there is a method to do so
loud flax
i'm actually wondering what you define success as
blazing junco
personally?
loud flax
yeah
blazing junco
I define it as when I'm happy with what I have and see that I don't need anything more than that
That's me
loud flax
and that takes luck in your estimation
yeah i have an obvious problem with that tbh.... though i'm not sure it that can be really helped honestly
blazing junco
I don't need to be lucky for my success. I'm privileged enough to have started with a good upbringing and enough money to fund my education, and now I have a job
But Elon Musk successful? Yeah. You need luck there.
loud flax
if you put me in a job at microsoft without any coding knowledge (yet with the same drive to do programming as I have now), I'm pretty sure I would thrive in that job eventually
tough cedar
https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-why-diamonds-are-so-expensive-2015-9 lol here is a short article about who keeps the diamond prices high
loud flax
i know they'd be taking a big risk by doing that to me
weary lake
Eventually, sure, but why do that, when you can take someone who already has the knowledge.
loud flax
i have a much much smaller scale example of that when I joined a dev team despite not knowing any java at the time (in a minecraft community)
tough cedar
what's interesting is I was the hard working person in my retail job and never got a better wage than the 'lazy' people in my department
blazing junco
what's interesting is I was the hard working person in my retail job and never g...
This is also a major factor
Teachers can be insanely creative and good at teaching their students or sit on their ass and tell them to read page 300 and make the same wage
tough cedar
the reality of working for a corporation is that you'll get your 2-5% wage increase year after year and nothing more
it doesn't matter if you are 'the best in the department' or 'lead material' as i was told, the higher ups set that % and that's what you get
i liked working there too 😦
retail was fun
tough cedar
i didn't work customer service
and in the 2 years i was there only had 1 customer get kinda annoyed with me
loud flax
but to say that all poor people are just lazy is kind of disingenuous honestly, and yet in a way i don't 100% hold to that
it just makes the most sense to be disingenuous
the man with the golden voice only got his dream job after a reporter stopped and recorded him speaking in his announcer voice
loud flax
@shy gulch what denomination are you?
also @shy gulch, I wonder if you could change your tune with your argument by simply adding a qualifier: working hard with the intention to serve others will give you more of a chance of reaching your own success
blazing junco
The point I'm making is simple: Any full time job should earn you a basic living
That's all
loud flax
yeah i think so too
dark crystal
I shouldn't have opened this again
anyways the minimum wage is literally made so that everyone can be paid a salary with which they can live
that was its original reason
even if nowadays minimum wage does not scrap the needs anymore
so like
I don't care about your bullshit about "if you don't aim higher you should be homeless"
I did not choose to be born, so at least i want to be able to survive in the world
and, again, all jobs are needed
from the MIT-grad scientist to the janitor at some school
i literally said this yesterday
if they are all needed they should all be paid liveable wages
which does not really happen nowadays
let's stop putting all of our faith in the invisible hand of the free market too
also that's funny of you to say because previously you had also said this
loud flax
PaperMC is successful because its mission isn't to itself but in serving others
i don't think that's really luck tbh
luck i guess in terms of the people you choose to associate with when building the community, but if everyone had an other-centered mindset, it would bring more chance of success
dark crystal
also that's funny of you to say because previously you had also said this
Now you're gonna ask me, "are janitors in high demand?". Well, you should take a look at my middle school. It's very understaffed because they don't get a liveable wage. One or two of them misses the day because they're sick or something and suddenly the school does not have enough people to function correctly and either the others get more workload on them or the school does not open.
So yes I would say they're in high demand.
They're fucking needed and there's no one to hire.
If your singular stories of successful persons serve as proof that anyone can do it, then my singular stories of "bad stuff happening due to the invisible hand of the free market" serve as well to counter.
loud flax
let me clarify if anyone is confused: other-centered means you have a mindset of helping other people; in other words what you do is not all about you
logics were you the one who mentioned janitors prevent diseases that people might get otherwise?
dark crystal
yes
loud flax
i really liked that description
dark crystal
Well, I think it's simply the truth
Thanks to them, my allergies don't get worse
- try to perform surgery in a dirty room lol
loud flax
LOL
dark crystal
imagine dust falling into an open heart surgery and suddenly Left 4 Dead becomes real life lmao
dark crystal
1 - if they're in high demand that's because they're needed
2 - i answered about whether they're in high demand on or not right after
dark crystal
Now you're gonna ask me, "are janitors in high demand?". Well, you should take a...
Proceed to read, please
I'm not oversimplifying, I think it's simple already
janitors are needed
daring locust
that's... plain logic?
loud flax
water is not rare
dark crystal
Proceed to explain, then
what does average income have to do with the fact that jobs with high demand mean they are needed
if they were not needed there wouldn't be any demand
Did I ever even bring them up?
Like what
near glen
water is not rare
That highly depends on where you life
dark crystal
you haven't expanded on anything
we're talking about high demand, not high supply
20 employers hiring janitors means there's high demand
they are needed
tadaaaaaaa
no because it would go higher
yeah
but if there are less consumers then janitors are less needed
because the demand will be lower
blazing junco
and your "real economics" has people waking up at 5 AM working two jobs a day to earn a basic living wage lmfao
no emotional plea here, you said that a full time job shouldn't necessarily offer people a basic living
is that not what you said
tough cedar
do you enjoy working more than 40 hours?
dark crystal
so, no time for personal leisure?
tough cedar
why? we only live on the planet for so many years
loud flax
like how many hours do you think they should work?
tough cedar
you're forgetting commute times
and other commitments
that also cut into leisure time
loud flax
40 + 56 (56 being hours sleeping if 8 hours a day is time necessary to sleep), leaving 72 hours left
so how many hours past 40 do you think people should work @shy gulch ?
tough cedar
however many it takes to stay competitive with china ofc
dark crystal
because competing with other countries is very important
as if there could not be alliances
loud flax
well if that's his baseline... i can't imagine his plan being very good
warm ibex
seems like all you're capable of
tough cedar
just going to the logical conclusion of your arguments
blazing junco
I don't think he's putting into effect the psychological effects of this type of shit
burnout exists
and some people can get burnt out from 40 hours a week let alone more than that
so you have to tread lightly when you make arguments like this or you get suicide nets in sweatshops
tough cedar
dude it's not really a debate when your arguments are just beyond absurd
blazing junco
Vacation days?
For what?
A week or two won't recuperate you working at the pace of 60 hours a week lol
dark crystal
why not just fire you and hire someone who can perform better?
I live in the european union, i don't feel competition, i feel cooperation
and i value morals over profit
blazing junco
Companies don't give a fuck about what you deserve
Remove minimum wage and see if they care
Okay, let's not argue wages
Let's talk about this statement right here
So what are your thoughts on child labor?
China seems a-ok with child labor tho
still in use, though
so is your statement valid?
If markets were so nice why'd they rely on child labor in the first place?
I'm not talking about economic system, but if your statement is valid then markets would never use child labor
dark crystal
because morals have evolved to consider child labor bad, due to the psychological implications of it to the children
blazing junco
So they're getting rid of it
But why did they have it in the first place
I'm pretty sure it was as immoral then as now forcing kids to work insanely long hours in factory lines
you keep talking to me about economic systems
and I'm talking to you about the statement you made
I don't have a delusion to shit
I'm talking about your statement
where profit goes hand in hand with morals
Ok
Cool argument Bro
Why are you still on about markets
I'm dissecting your statement
Not any economic system
oh my lord
dude
I simply explained that if your statement was valid, child labor would have never been used anywhere
Why?
but it has to do with morals
which go hand in hand with profit
according to you
fine
ignore that
ignore the markets
let's just dissect "profit and morals go hand in hand"
do you think this is true
okay
now hear me out
IF they do
then why was child labor used in ANY economic system
in the first place
but it's immoral to profit from child labor right
so profit and morals don't go hand in hand
no just funny
profits were a byproduct of child labor
sure
they all suck too
but do profit based systems go hand in hand with morality
even though in some cases
they use child labor
ok
cool glad we got that sorted out
sure but they did use it in the first place
a fact you conveniently decide to ignore
but it is immoral right
a fact you conveniently decide to ignore
then profit doesn't go hand in hand with morals
because immoral actions seem to give higher profit
but it's immoral
and it makes more profit
human rights issues
something something people don't like it when you use child labor and may boycott you
DOESN'T MATTER
FUCK
STOP TALKING ABOUT MARKETS
then why was child labor used in the first place
dark crystal
because contemporary companies purposefully move their factories to places like bangladesh for cheaper labor, knowing fully well that child labor is rampant there and that there are no protective mechanisms to prevent it
there you go
blazing junco
^^^^
if it was as you say, everyone would be moving their manufacturing pipelines to the US
right?
i mean there's also the issue of forced labor
lol
doesn't have to be just child labor
dark crystal
but why do they move their factories to where child labor exists?
you haven't answered mine either just because you asked me other question
you first
dark crystal
because contemporary companies purposefully move their factories to places like ...
you didn't answer to this
blazing junco
Hey Refreshment
dark crystal
your question does not refute it
I'm not denying nor accepting because it does not matter
blazing junco
Is it moral to pay people enough to have a basic living Refreshment?
dark crystal
they still move their factories to where child labor exists
there you go
i did indeed answer
your sole argument is that "it's decreasing, therefore it's not related"
you're purposefully avoiding my argument because it blows yours to shreds
have a nice day
warm ibex
Guys
this is a spoiled 13 year old who discovered politics 3 days ago
don't waste your time
blazing junco
Is it moral to pay people enough to have a basic living Refreshment?
can you answer this @shy gulch
dark crystal
He can't, he's receiving new instructions by the invisible hand of the free market
too busy to answer you
tough cedar
dark crystal
He says that profits hold no responsibility for child labor, yet he can't answer me why companies move their factories to where child labor exists, arguing that all that matters is that it's decreasing.
It literally does not matter if it's decreasing if companies keep perpetuating it for as long as they possibly can.
But his mind can't comprehend that.
aRe YoU dEnYinG?
sorry man, you're the one pulling a strawman here @shy gulch
tough cedar
lol yea, and if you do answer, it's a 'haha gotcha now im going to ignore your argument because you said it's decreasing'
seems like while the 'nordic countries' don't have a minimum wage they seem to have big unions
so they can collectively argue for a higher wage, basically making it a minimum wage without it being enforced by the government
mystic ermine
don't nordic countries also generally have relatively high tax levels and also booming tech industries?
dark crystal
so it's not like unions are the holy grail of fixing inequality
sure, they can be
and the ones that work work very well, but there's also that other side
tough cedar
i mean i've heard on the internet that they have higher taxes
never bothered looking into it to see how much higher though
- compared to america
copper flower
Really depends. Personal income tax rate in Norway is lower than in the US
But if you use tax-to-GDP to compare it, yes, they have higher taxes
mystic ermine
over in the US and the UK unions are mostly seen by the working class as a huge scam afaik
Like, some companies have really good unions worth getting into
others, it's a "pay us and when you need us we may or may not answer the phone"
near glen
Unions rule the country here in germany
If they get pissed, they can shut down the whole country
dark crystal
here in portugal the unions are good for planning out major strikes and... i don't know anything else that they do
near glen
12 hours of strike from train drivers and our economy collapses
mystic ermine
Much of the public services have unions, e.g. post office, trains, busses, etc
copper flower
Are collective agreements (is this the right term?) a thing in the UK? Because thats really common in Sweden or Finland
mystic ermine
They often have the power to strike but the companies are also semi private so known to just hire temp staff when it happens
Apparently so, yea
near glen
My wage is influenced by unions too, even tho I am not part of a union (in fact, everybody who is in a union at my company is in another union, not the one that influences our wage), I still get about 2% raise every year thanks to the union
mystic ermine
a good chunk of the traditional working class over here generally got tired of government and co not caring and so the interest in unions basically falls every year
There's just a general sense of detachment from it all and people sorta started shoving cash into these do nothing unions
foggy fern
I don't want to scroll up anymore, did someone really say "profits and morals go hand in hand"?
blazing junco
yes
copper flower
afaik they are loosing members in Germany as well, but it really depends, e.g. the vast majority of train drivers is in a union, but not so much for other jobs
I don't even know what it was about, just read something about Scandinavian countries and found that interesting 😄
foggy fern
It's the other way around, government regulations make following morals the best way to get profits
When they don't you see profits come at the expense of morals
dark crystal
But see, if the market dictates that people want to buy products that stem from slavery, there's nothing to do about it!!!!
That's just the way it is!!!!
pinky promise kiss kiss
foggy fern
The US at least tries to prevent things made using child labor from being available in the US, although it's impossible to stop everything and it doesn't try hard enough
I imagine the EU has similar rules
So yeah, it's hard to make money selling to the western world when you make things with child labor
Amusingly, the US has no problem with goods made using prison labor in the US but blocks imports of similarly made goods from elsewhere
near glen
afaik they are loosing members in Germany as well, but it really depends, e.g. ...
I personally am not in a union cause I don't need them, I got a strong workers council that is much more powerful than a union could ever be in this company
near glen
I imagine the EU has similar rules
Not sure about EU, but Germany is pushing a "Lieferkettengesetz" (supply chain law), where the company is responsible for their supply chain, they gotta make sure every worker in the supply chain is handled fairly
Ah it's actually a law already, nice
Starting this month, every company with more than 3k employees, and starting 2024 every company with more than 1k employees
Now, I can't actually find any good summary of the content if that law, lmao
Ah ok, the companies have to assess risk of human rights violations and environmental issues in their supply chain, and document what they do to combat them
That doesn't sound half bad
blazing junco
we can all agree that the united nations should only have votes by the balkans
yes?
@safe flint @torn wadi
safe flint
Bro. You know we always agree on everything.
dark crystal
Nah, only votes from the Iberic Peninsula
glossy sandal
The leader of the United nations should be albania
safe flint
Fact!
Every other #politics user must take us as an example if you ask me. True Balkan, instant agreement, no arguing.
mystic ermine
who the fuck are the balkan?
dark crystal
isn't that how you say "stupid" in japanese?
like
you balkan!
or something
/s
mystic ermine
BAKA
daring locust
inb4 system32 comes in here yeah balkan commie lol!!!!!!!
glossy sandal
They not in discord
daring locust
Fact!
glossy sandal
I think ita time to get really political
Who here in response to someone saying thank you, would say "no problem" or " you're welcome"
blazing junco
I say both interchangeably
daring locust
i say nothing cuz haha awkward > being social
glossy sandal
I saw some videos awhile ago of an older person getting really mad because people would say no problem
daring locust
dark crystal
"no problem" if it's something like "grab me a cup of water", "you're welcome" if it's something like giving emotional advice
although i don't really follow this rule i set myself often 
glossy sandal
I say no problem to anything because i see it as saying it was no trouble or annoyance for me to help
dark crystal
but that's how I like to think
glossy sandal
But I think their argument was no problem belittled them cuz they person helping saw it easier or some shit
Lul
Some of these articles are 2iq
torn wadi
we can all agree that the united nations should only have votes by the balkans
Yes bro.
foggy fern
glossy sandal
near glen
I don't see a problem in any of the 4 flags 😂
dark crystal
do americans really think that people in europe do cross-country traveling to go shopping and stuff?
because like, that probably works if you're near borders but
it's not the average person who has financial means to do that regularly lmfao
- people in america near the state's borders probably do that too, it just doesn't count as a different country but I mean... it's a state
near glen
I travel to the Netherlands for shopping multiple times a year
It's an hour or 90 minutes drive depending where I go
weary lake
We've never been to a different country for shopping, closest border is one and a half hours away
restive seal
Is that the "US civil war was about states' rights" version of the Berlin wall?
dark crystal
Yeah but y'know, the European Union, unified market... There's not that big of a difference cross-country unless you go somewhere that's not part of the EU. Plus, if you're talking about the Berlin wall: I, too, would want to escape from a dictatorship, in any way I could. That's a detail you're conveniently forgetting in place of "heavy government regulation".
In fact you probably wouldn't even fine with "light government regulation" if you support an anarchist-type ideology.
So what's the comparison you're trying to make here?
foggy fern
...
I'm going to just assume you're shitposting every time you type something
The South was capitalism too, it was just stuck in a local maximum because slavery made industrialization less useful
You mean things like the works of Adam Smith?
Guess you aren't a fan of the labor theory of value then 😛
near glen
Slavery is peak capitalism, the rule of the rich
The rich makes everyone else to their slaves
I don't care about the theory
That's what it is in praxis
Because the theory failed
warm ibex
do you think what Marx wrote is what was implemented in east berlin?
near glen
You missunderstand me
It's not black and wight
White
It's a scale
And all am arguing is that implementing some social features circumvents a ton of short falls of capitalism
Like you can see in modern societies like in skandinavia
Or heck, even Germany implements social features
Free education, universal health care, unemployment help, minimum wage
All that is anti capitalist, right?
But it is a requirement to keep our society alive
You see this wrong
It's helping ppl to make the best of their abilities, for the greater good of society
Quotation needed
restive seal
[citation needed]
near glen
All the studies show the opposite
Removing the need to cover basic human needs enables freedom to get back into a good job, by utilizing education and courses and shit
foggy fern
I think it's definitely more abused in the US for the same reason we don't want to have those systems to begin with
"Fuck you, got mine"
foggy fern
But even in the US abuse is a tiny minority and the systems are overall beneficial
near glen
Capitalism is abused to yet we stick to it 😂
All these assholes avoiding taxes
That's what is stealing
foggy fern
Most people don't want to rely on government help, it's embarrassing to not be able to take care of yourself
near glen
Yeah, we make sure it's so stigmatized that ppl wanna get off it quick
Heck, some ppl rather live on the street than to take government help
And like, am not even a fan of our unemployment programm
I would much rather replace all these complicated welfare systems with UBI
Which would solve this in a much easier manner
Is that wikipedia article refreshment approved?
Studies show otherwise
Studies show that other than ppl being more happy, they take more risk and get higher reward, fund successful business like small cafes and stuff or get another education, cause the exestential dread is removed
foggy fern
Thanks to this conversation I've now added https://www.amazon.com/Half-Has-Never-Been-Told/dp/046500296X to my reading list
pure jetty
there hasn't been enough good studies on UBI in the US to make it worth while, means tested welfare programs are just so much more better and actual politically possible in the US at least
near glen
From that wikipedia "The German government has estimated that the amounts lost through welfare fraud were 6% of the amounts lost through tax avoidance and subvention fraud"
So yeah, welfare fraud isn't an issue we need to waste any time on, lmao
pure jetty
yang was gonna do a study but I think he stopped/it got downsized?
near glen
We just started a bigger study in German, will get results in a few years
The other studies are all small circles
But basically, it's definitely an option that should be explored more
mystic ermine
My hatred of welfare systems is that I wouldn't want children placed in the same place I was as a child
foggy fern
Uh, I think you missed something in there
That continental cotton empire he is talking about is still using slaves
mystic ermine
Having systems in place to help the vulnerable, at least to me, is a critical part of modern society in terms of helping out those less off, the fact that I was able to get into uni is great, for my area of "expertise" uni ain't exactly critical (much less critical than this pandemic to actually fuck off, though), but, these systems are often screwed and trap people into them
my mother who dropped out of high school was in a position where she was far behind on her career path, so getting a real job woulda been a drop in cash flow
foggy fern
Ed Baptist goes even further. He says that plantations growing cotton developed many of the innovations of modern industrial capitalism. These included productivity "targets" for enslaved people similar to the quotas of many modern factory workers.
dark crystal
fun fact, when you pay taxes you're also paying for those "handouts" to be given to you whenever you may need them
it's not just for the others
foggy fern
tough cedar
ez, just an opinion now can dismiss
foggy fern
You understand pretty much all of this is opinion right?
It's philosophy, we could spend all day arguing over what objective truth even means 😛
I can't tell if he's learning or if this is cognitive dissonance
tough cedar
i mean you got refuted and then it suddenly just became 'an opinion' lol
daring locust
do you normally join minecraft servers to go straight to politics channels? just curious
tough cedar
i have no opinion on this particular subject
foggy fern
The khan academy piece is meant to be a history book
Like, for school
But history, beyond "X happened on Y date" is pretty much all opinion
keen swift
Whats the debate about?
tough cedar
whether or not slavery was capitalism or not lol
foggy fern
The impression I get of the book from wikipedia and this khan academy piece of that it tries to show how slavery at the very least created some of the techniques used in modern capitalism
Which is why I put it on my reading list, it's an interesting take
I've already read about the other side of the argument, it's called high school 😛
shut vine
I mean, taking techniques used in an immoral situation and applying them to another doesn't automatically make them negative
tough cedar
I mean, taking techniques used in an immoral situation and applying them to anot...
i don't think take away that that was being argued here
shut vine
Ah okay
foggy fern
Have you ever read the 13th Amendment?
keen swift
Ya but slavery is a right winged idea
keen swift
Left winged countries can have some right winged ideas
shut vine
Ah so this is a debate about left/right and which more predominately was for slavery?
foggy fern
If you believe facism is a leftist thing we have a lot of work to do 😛
keen swift
lol
foggy fern
I don't even know what this is about anymore
It started as if slavery is valid in capitalism and I've made the mistake of allowing @shy gulch to pull it wherever they want by trying to refute whatever new thing they say
shut vine
I mean, slavery is valid in pretty much every political ideology, and has manifested in nearly every one of them.
foggy fern
True
shut vine
I'm guessing he's trying to argue it's against the principles of capitalism?
keen swift
hasnt every country had slavery, at one time or another?
shut vine
It's against the free market, so if pure it would be accurate I think.
shut vine
But you can't take the ideal of a ideology and use it as an example, you have to take the history of an ideology.
daring locust
you got it mixed up i think
keen swift
thats totally wrong
shut vine
Same goes for socialism, history shows us it leads nowhere good.
foggy fern
Fascism is somewhat hard to place on any political spectrum because it's really "whatever keeps us in power"-ism but it came into being as a response to communism
So it would make sense to put it opposite communism
keen swift
Right wing is division of power and split ownership and left wing is strong government and public ownership
tough cedar
well, according to his chart his view is correct naomi and ztmmtz
foggy fern
Fascism will freely adopt whatever beliefs it needs to in order to keep its in group in power
But once they don't need those beliefs to maintain power anymore they get tossed out
keen swift
Thats not right or left wing, thats if your a good or bad person
tough cedar
do you know how america treated lgbt and minorities?
foggy fern
The end result looks a lot like right wing authoritarianism which is where fascism gets placed
tough cedar
ok, all im saying is that everyone hated minorities and lgbt people
and in some places that's still the case, but especially then
pure jetty
communism/socialism is an economic system. they have no direct connection to lgbt issues so I have no idea why you conflate them. however, socialism and communism does tend to require authoritarianism/facism to a degree which historically tend to not have good lgbt stances
shut vine
That's not particularly helpful, the purest form of an ideology is irrelevant. Only what it manifests as in practice is relevant.
keen swift
thats because there Horrible perople not there political alinement
there have been dispicable right and left wing governments
dark crystal
btw this is ignoring the fact that there is not only one type of liberalism and some can be center or even right but okay
keen swift
Right and left wing does not mean you are good or bad, its how you think your government should be run
just because there idea of government is bad doesnt mean there a horrible person
dark crystal
Oh and btw if anarchy only exists to the right, what's your opinion about anarchocommunism? that's other thing that that left <-> right line is missing
shut vine
Yeah most countries other than the USA consider liberalism to be libertarianism or classic liberalism.
keen swift
there have been horrible people on all sides of the government and political spetrum
Do you know what socialism is?
Every contry has socialism
Police is socialism
Yes it is
shut vine
...
foggy fern
Aren't communes examples of anarchocommunism?
dark crystal
with what kind of money do you think the police are paid with?
foggy fern
No organization whatsoever isn't a thing
dark crystal
and who they belong to?
foggy fern
As soon as you have more than 1 person you have some organization
dark crystal
they are a state force
keen swift
Socialism is like public ownership, and giving away individual right for the benifit of the majority, so with police, you give away some rights for the protection of the majority
foggy fern
It does work, it's working quite well today
dark crystal
nordic countries would like to have a word
the same nordic countries you pointed out as good examples previously
keen swift
The world is more then black and white, Just this or just that
foggy fern
You don't need a government set minimum wage if you have a strong social safety net
If a job doesn't pay enough to live on you just don't work
The government has an implicit minimum wage
warm ibex
or strong unions so workers have some power to negotiate
dark crystal
but they're working fine, aren't they?
shut vine
Their economy is in decline but not in a dangerous way, and that could be the result of a myriad of factors.
keen swift
Whos?
shut vine
Norway/Sweden/Switzerland
keen swift
Oh they are, i didnt know that
shut vine
Not sure about any of the others
Yea it's marginal, and it has been lower during the financial crises etc
keen swift
Is it like there at risk of loosing alot of jobs, or just a slight dip?
shut vine
Slight, it's very minor, and the data I saw was based mostly on their GDP growth etc slowing.
It's not enough to say "it's not working".
As I said when I initially mentioned it, could also be explained by a myriad of factors.
I'm surprised that you can tax the individual at ~70% starting and not have worse results.
The Nordic countries are probably going to see their biggest challenges as the population of elderly outweighs the young which is most likely to start in 2035-2040 ish. Especially if their immigration influx continues.
near glen
Isn't the immigration influx the solution to the demographic problem?
shut vine
It's highly dependent on what kind of immigrant really, immigrants of professions of high demand are. However most immigrants don't fit into that category, most are from countries with very low education outcomes which tends to manifest as a multi-generational cost.
Well most in that area.
The actual solution is not having a situation where the non-working can outnumber the working. Otherwise it's just a government sponsored pyramid scheme.
That or ensure most immigrants are going to contribute to society in a meaningful way in the first generation (strong immigration policies uh oh).
mystic ermine
The joys are that people are living older than before, and people last I knew where having less kids in general (there are some familys which go above the average, but, overall afaik, population tends to be going down), and we're expecting a drop in population at some point iirc
Big issue is that these systems work off of taking a chunk of cash from those working towards typical government stuff and these support systems, so if the population thins out you have less people throwing cash into those pots
STEM/high paying fields have a good (sometimes excessive, apparently) demand for people coming in in which high paying jobs can offset that to a degree but, "this could get interesting", especially for people who don't have a good amount of cash put away when they retire
The joys of these systems is that theres a good amount of lag (decades long) in terms of people starting to pay in vs those who are taking out, so the issue sorta like builds up
dusky raft
I think social security was an issue bound to happen at some point, and it makes me wonder if there would have been a better solution, maybe a mix of a mandated personal fund/mixed fund.
sort of why im thinking HSAs are not that bad of an idea either
mystic ermine
The big issue with funding is the delay and the fact that you rely on more people putting into the pot than taking out, 'less people are basically chipping in much more than people take out
these things practically rely on constant population growth or lots of investment to generate the revenue needed somehow in order to keep the pot rolling
dusky raft
yes, which is why I do think there should be a mix between a personal fund and a mixed fund to prevent any issues on the personal being drained completely
that way, it could be considered a 1 in, 1 out, along with a small mix from the public pool that grows larger until the personal fund gets depleted
foggy fern
these things practically rely on constant population growth or lots of investmen...
Too bad they're only allowed to invest it in bonds
near glen
That or ensure most immigrants are going to contribute to society in a meaningfu...
That's actual a thing here in germany. We enable immigrants to work rather quickly.
Long term UBI is the only solution anyways because we will definitely end up with less working ppl in the future thanks to automation anyways, add demographic issues and everything collapses
shut vine
Germany would have to raise taxes by at least 17% for everyone to have a UBI with over 50% of the population without a job.
shut vine
Oh wait, 170%
Also it's cost of living which is 8500 EUR a year, multiplied by 50% of the population, which is about 42 million. Then find out how much that is compared to current taxes.
near glen
Well, you forgot to reduce it by the cost of all our other welfare systems
Cause those would be redundant mostly
shut vine
So then we can assume it's an increase of at least 70% then
near glen
Which is nothing more than a guess ^^
shut vine
Because your welfare systems can't be more than 100% of the current tax revenue
near glen
"As in other developed democracies, in Germany too social spending represents the largest individual item of public spending. Around 996 billion euros was committed to public social spending in 2018, equating to a share of 25.1 percent of gross domestic product (GDP)."
It exceeds one trillion nowadays
1014 in 2019
shut vine
Either way, based on 212.50 euros a week for 50% of your population, it would cost 428.4 billion euros annually.
That is just living expenses like the essentials, zero medical, zero rent.
Wouldn't take into account dependents either.
near glen
Which given our current expenses certainly doesn't sound impossible
Again, all am saying is somebody at our ministry should look into it and do calculations with real data
And projections for the next decades
Nobody knows if it's the ultimate solution cause nobody tried yet
So we should at least play thru it theoretically at a national level
shut vine
It's a third of your entire government revenue.
near glen
We already spend 26% on that today 🤷♂️
shut vine
We already spend 26% on that today 🤷♂️
I see.. so what would you cut?
near glen
All existing systems
They are made redundant by UBI
(not entirely, there's still value in training for unemployed obviously, but that's not that expensive compared to the other spendings)
And if in doubt, tax the rich
Fun fact: I am in the highest tax bracket
foggy fern
Almost 10,000 people in the us died from covid last month
foggy fern
We could have everyone vaccinated if they wanted it, 99.2% were unvaccinated
near glen
UK is really good at pretending, they got so much UEFA money in their face, they can't see their rising infection numbers
7 day incidence of over 200, wooo
foggy fern
So to some extent most of them killed themselves
foggy fern
Yeah so they might kill me still too
near glen
So yes, they are killing themselves, but we can't let them continue to do so
Same with the Brits
They continue to reopen, expect even higher numbers, but Boris says it's prolly fine
When it's really not
The UK is already responsible for the surge of delta in Europe
foggy fern
Our numbers started going back up too
near glen
Yesterday was the first in weeks were it went up here too
foggy fern
Mostly in the areas with least vaccination
near glen
I think it was Finland where on one day 30% or smth infections were related to the football bullshit
foggy fern
It's almost like the vaccines work or something
foggy fern
jeez
near glen
And like, Europe is still lacking a bit behind in vaccinations, am only getting my second dose in two weeks, my sister hasn't even gotten her first dose
Germany is at 56% first 38% second
So yeah, what the UK is doing together with UEFA is fucking irresponsible
near glen
Uk is only at 67/50% too
daring locust
for all i know, most old people in my area are vaccinated (source: mother is GP)
near glen
But old ppl don't leave the house anyways
The priorization is dum but that's a lost cause
daring locust
yeah, but it is understandable
near glen
There are more old ppl, we got elections coming up, so we vaccinated them first
daring locust
since old people are also more likely to get very sick from the disease
near glen
Delta is apparently more agreesive towards younger ppl 🤷♂️
daring locust
yes because there's more younger ppl going to places where you have a risk of catching it
foggy fern
327 days from pandemic start to first general use of a vaccine, apparently
Previous record was 4 years
Guessing that's from WHO declaration to when the UK started vaccination
plush crypt
we recently passed a solid 10% of our population in cases 
daring locust
another instance of refreshment linking to a wikipedia article regarding welfare fraud