politics

[mystic ermine]

Like, my mother wouldn't let me go to the school I wanted to, and so I was stuck either between some christian nutter school or some school in a runned down area which was placed on special measures and closed a few years down the line

[urban knoll]

I mean honestly the teachers unions showed during covid just how bad they could be by actually shutting schools down even against the science.

[mystic ermine]

I mean, it's defo far from a magical fix, but it puts power into peoples hands to at least be able to gtfo out of failing schools

[urban knoll]

I mean if nurses and doctors are going to work, teachers need to go too. Schools are just as important as hospitals and grocery stores.

[mystic ermine]

I mean, that's a fun and critical issue that I see for america is the over unionisation of stuff

[urban knoll]

Agreed. I think people should have freedom of association, but I also think teachers unions have too much power.

[mystic ermine]

You often hear from people about critical services like education or the police, that the fact that everything is unionised often causes many complex issues with moving anywhere

I like the fact that people can team up and stuck an FU to their workers for their own rights

[faint radish]

I never quite understood why this didn’t take hold. Education is that important

[mystic ermine]

But, there is defo concerns over power

How often do you hear about stories where some officer ended up murdering somebody on the job, and we find out that the force tried to let him go but the union protected his ass

[faint radish]

And while online can attempt to be an adequate substitute, it hardly is the same. Especially for younger kids

[mystic ermine]

I mean, I know it's anecdotal and such, but, I mean, it's worrying

[urban knoll]

Oh it was horrible.

HORRIBLE

[pure breach]

without education there'd be no doctors or nurses

[urban knoll]

My brother is being held back a year.

[fluid sonnet]

Education today is not what it was when I went to school. We couldn’t cut up without getting straightened out. Most kids now can scream, fight, and even disrespect teachers without getting any repercussions

[mystic ermine]

I mean that's the thing, they're still wondering how much this year is going to impact us as a whole

[urban knoll]

Cause of my TBI, I know all the special-ed and behaviorally challenged kids. All this online and hybrid education has seriously affected them.

[glossy sandal]

That's like the most common boomer take I ever read lol. "Its cuz we cant hit our kids anymore"

[urban knoll]

I seriously think that this generation of students has suffered the most of any American generation since WWII.

[fluid sonnet]

I didn’t say hit kids, though

[pure breach]

in my school if you're in a fight, whether you're defending yourself or not, you get suspeneded

[fluid sonnet]

there are other forms of discipline

[faint radish]

This is the whole “the country swings wildly in different directions to compensate for the past” thing, and always misses the sweet spot. Teachers used to be able to beat kids essentially, and that’s not good, but they have to be in charge of the classroom.

[glossy sandal]

Idk what schools you see but you get detention, expelled, sent home, etc. For being an asshole in class

[urban knoll]

Yeah, a lot of the poor schools are bad because they have no discipline or they just pass kids a long.

[faint radish]

So now the kids and parents run the classrooms, and so it’s chaotic

[mystic ermine]

and that's the thing, last I saw the science indicated that children where the lest likely to have any real issues from it or even likely to transmit it, and now many of them have lost a year of building up their immune systems, a year or socialisation at a critical time step, for some, even just getting away from deadbeat parents

[glossy sandal]

My school really hit home the "if ur gonna be an ass whatever just dont interfere with others learning" message

[fluid sonnet]

I understand that. But I never mentioned beating on kids. No one was in the time I grew up.

[urban knoll]

Yes! CPS almost always identifies issues through the school system

[pure breach]

nowadays the us has a school to prison pipeline and it's fucked

[mystic ermine]

and that's another thing, the wussification of parents

[faint radish]

Well yes, that’s the “sweet spot” I was taking about. Public opinion always misses it, and so we just slam into the guardrails, and turn back the other direction

[fluid sonnet]

But my point was better explained by Machine, stating that teachers have little control of classrooms.

[mystic ermine]

Well, that's a horrible way to say it, but, parents these days just don't seem to care

[fluid sonnet]

Ah, I misread, apologies

[mystic ermine]

I remember when I was young, if I had a temper tantrum, I'd know about it, I'd get my ass whipped or i'd be gounded and shit like that

I get that parents don't wanna hit kids these days, and to a degree, I support it

[pure breach]

but there's alternate forms of punishment

[daring locust]

the usual punishments i see are getting put in the hallway for 5 minutes or taking away electronics

[mystic ermine]

But, I mean, I remember when 2 weeks gounded was 2 weeks

[faint radish]

I read recently about goodhearts law, which is about when you make a goal, society will optimize towards reaching that goal, even at the expense of making things worse.

Look at graduation rates, states want to have the highest one, but if that is the goal, then what do you naturally do to increase your grad rate? You make it easier to graduate.

[urban knoll]

YES!

[pure breach]

now 2 weeks is basically 2 days

[mystic ermine]

Not allowed outside, not allowed on the console, not allowed on the PC, not allowed to play in my room, etc

[fluid sonnet]

Precisely.

[faint radish]

A long time ago, the British put bounties on cobras in Africa cause there were too many, and so the people living there started breeding more of them

[urban knoll]

Stupid brits :p

[mystic ermine]

Before I left, a punishment was being grounded from going outside, still being allowed on the console and such

[urban knoll]

Gotta love em 🙂

[faint radish]

Well, you have to pick a good goal, and that usually isn’t an arbitrary number. Like highest graduation rate

You want the most best educated graduates

[urban knoll]

https://youtu.be/ue7wM0QC5LE

[mystic ermine]

he'd throw controllers across the room in rage at his games, trash headsets, he'd still get a replacement by the end of the month, even if it meant less food in the cupboard

and, it's one of the biggest arguments against affirmative action

Yes, you get more POC into college, but

you're setting these people up to fail

Cool, they get in, they get loans to pay for it, but then they drop out because they figure that it's not for them

[urban knoll]

The real fix for college diversity is better K12 education.

[mystic ermine]

Now you have a population which is already massively overresented in povertry stricken areas yet another bill to worry about and nothing in return for it

[urban knoll]

Also those areas are often not safe too 😦

[mystic ermine]

The problem is that we'd sooner measure to the books rather than actual effects

YYay, we've increased college admissions towards these people!

[fluid sonnet]

When I went to my kids high school graduation, I noticed something pretty alarming. The principal was bragging about the fact that almost 400 students out of 750+ had 4.0 average GPA’s. But when the students later had to stand for a certain grade on an aptitude test, only 6 stood up. How do you have that many people supposedly getting straight A’s throughout high school, but they couldn’t get what was considered an “Excellent” score on an aptitude test?

The curve didn’t match. This is the type of scaling mentioned previously, to make numbers seem higher when the reality is they were just easier.

[urban knoll]

Dear lord

[solar gate]

oh god

[urban knoll]

Stop it please

[warm ibex]

"democrat socialism"

[fluid sonnet]

Not a good interruption

[solar gate]

Not a good interpretation of current events

[mystic ermine]

!ban 854791067727036457 pump and dump is not welcomed in politics

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned AaronBurr#8964 (pump and dump is not welcomed in politics) [1 total infraction] -- electronicboy#8869.

[solar gate]

thank you

[glossy sandal]

Was that a new account didnt get a chance to see

[mystic ermine]

yes, 3 hours ago

[glossy sandal]

[solar gate]

I guess I'm on thin ice too, joined like 15 minutes ago

[daring locust]

the leftover messages are actually really funny 👀

[mystic ermine]

But, yea, I mean it's the big issue where statistics are the primary focus rather than actual outcome

||naomi wishes somebody would pump and dump her||

[solar gate]

oh god

[fluid sonnet]

Everyone was clapping, I was the only one baffled and alarmed by it. They were celebrating something that was not even remotely good

[mystic ermine]

I mean, it's the issue, very few people are willing to actually speak about or even stand up for this type of crap

[daring locust]

no ||i would like to be cuddled or have my head crushed by thighs (preferably girl thighs)||

[mystic ermine]

preach

[solar gate]

same

[fluid sonnet]

[mystic ermine]

I think that's a modern issue where people aren't willing to say, you failed

[solar gate]

That's interesting. I'm really glad I never went through the public school system, looking at it from a third person perspective, it's really screwed up in a lot of ways

[fluid sonnet]

I believe people should be presented their failures to learn upon them.

[urban knoll]

Yes. It's just that doing it in a constructive way is very hard 😦

[mystic ermine]

I think it's fair to fail, I don't think failing should be a negative mark so long as you tried

Not everybody has the brain for maths

not everybody has a penchant for classic english literature

I think in a modern age we have the tech to conteract a good chunk of our own inefficiences

[fluid sonnet]

As long as it’s shown in a positive environment it should be fine. It’s the negative connotation that people perceive as destructive and not constructive.

[fluid sonnet]

Unfortunately we aren’t optimizing for it. We are leaving it as it was, instead of leveraging the ability to work around it

[mystic ermine]

I think that it's okay to not be good at something, maths is especially one of those areas in which peoples brains aren't all that good with

The thing is is that we KNOW and have proven that peoples brains work different between individuals and that some things like a penchant for maths is not really something that is inheriently teachable

and yet in the education system, we refuse to accept that as the reality and think that high scores is a must for everything

it's part of why I hope that as a group of generations, we push to do better than our forefathers

[solar gate]

I think school as we know it shouldn't continue past the age of around 15, unless you show aptitude and/or interest in more advanced careers. There are so many real life skills that could be taught from 15 to 18 that would help so many people start out in life. I see so many people go to college without motivation or goals. Most people will never need to know advanced biology, chemisty, etc.. those who were interested could start out in trade schools or apprenticeships.. I wish the system was designed to be more accepting towards those who want to start working on their future earlier, while keeping options open for those who want to improve their education. But you guys are right, it's all about numbers, higher numbers means more money, and all anyone cares about is money.

[mystic ermine]

I think sadly a good chunk of the current governance around the world is just a toxin on the very systems they manage, but, I think that we need to enact the changes we feel that we need, but, I'm worried that those who strive for power will just continue on the same harm, or basically completely neglect the people they wanna help to enforce their own ideals

[fluid sonnet]

College was meant to make you a more rounded and knowledgeable individual. Knowing chemistry is still a good thing, even if you don’t plan on being an expert. Same for everything else.

[mystic ermine]

I think that education is important, but, not everything needs to be graded

[fluid sonnet]

But I agree, there needs to be a way to locate your abilities and extract them earlier on. I know Germany was pretty good at this, last I ever read on their education system.

[mystic ermine]

Like, children as a whole are often naturally willing to learn new stuff and are often interested in it

yet, we beat that out of them with continous testing and constant stress of failure

[daring locust]

my feelings exactly

i hate having to stress for school because i know that if i don't perform well people will be disappointed in me and i don't want that :)))

[fluid sonnet]

Also, I noticed that school as of recently, only teaches you based off of a curriculum, which follows a certain guideline. The problem, is they don’t always teach you the correct information, but because you got the “basics”, you’ll adapt fine. And this is very wasteful, imo

[mystic ermine]

Yea, it's why I think that things like history being a graded/tested subject is inheriently dangerous

[solar gate]

Thank all of you for the conversation, it's nice to talk with intelligent people

[daring locust]

i feel like history should be something of a spoken thing

in schools, that is

[mystic ermine]

I mean, think about it, we have things like youtube which allows things to be posted

[fluid sonnet]

I’m not entirely sure I know what you mean, clarify? Because that’s how history gets changed

[mystic ermine]

recounts of people who actually lived in the war and such

I mean,history is always going to be double sided

[daring locust]

i mean having history be an oral exam instead of stamping on facts

[mystic ermine]

Tomas eddision invented the lightbulb

[solar gate]

That would be even more biased then the current curriculum though

not that it isn't important

[mystic ermine]

I mean, the idea is that you pull in a diversity of material

not all recounts are gonna be even remotely suitable for it

But, I'd much rather spend 20 minutes listening to the recounts of somebody who lived on rationing and what it was like, rather than a technical list of what people had and such

[fluid sonnet]

I’ve always been a fan of the fact-based history, but i don’t know how the other ways would work

[mystic ermine]

I think fact based is important but fact based often discredits many other aspects of it

[solar gate]

"History is written by the victors". A truer fact has never been spoken. American curriculum tends to skim over all the terrible things that have been done in American history, focusing more on Nazis and Communism, at least the curriculum I took

I mean sure, we learned of our history, but it was framed in a totally different light

[mystic ermine]

I mean, history is probs not a super great "youtube it" type thing for a lot of material, but, there is.a lot of documentaries which go into the aspects of stuff which we never even knew

Like, I was about 20 years old when I learned that somebody actually managed to get a bomb in a suitcase into the room of a nazi meeting with the leader but that basically failed

[solar gate]

I read that when I was 13, I thought it was so interesting

He was so close

[fluid sonnet]

I think that’s where the shift of information happened. Because, I was taught an extreme amount about other countries and their history rather than just simply the US History.

I guess they probably split that up?

[mystic ermine]

I somewhat don't remember all too much about it as I live in the UK, most of our history lessons where primarily focused on the wars and such, bit of UK history, but, not much all beyond that afaik

[solar gate]

I'm just saying, I learned about the US bombing Hiroshima, (it was justified though because they blew up a few of our boats), and I learned about how many natives were killed (also justified because it was a long time ago), but I never heard about the unethical tests done on US civilians by the FBI! I didn't learn about that until I was out of school. There are so many things that have happened even in the last 50-100 years that are so beyond justification that they just skip over them, I guess? Or maybe my curriculum was just jaded, I don't know.

[mystic ermine]

I mean, part of the horrors of history is retrospect

We KNOW these days that both of the atomic bombs where not needed and the japanese millitary likely wouldn't of lasted much longer

But, at that time, it ended the war

[daring locust]

the dutch school system has you go from 3000 BC to current 3 times in your primary/secondary school career, so they're quite thorough curriculum wise

[mystic ermine]

it's the one thing that concerns me about fact based history is that you often look at the facts based on the victors

You're not really taught that japan was already close to losing

So, as far as many are concerned, the US did good for ending the war which would of raged on for years more

But, if you learn that the japanese likely wouldn't of lasted much longer in the war, you question why the fuck the US had to go OTT on it and murder so many civillians

[solar gate]

My curriculum had me alternate between regions/times yearly, sort of. Every other year I had World History, and in between it would be more localized, US History, Medieval times in Europe, the Renaissance <-- I remember those 3 most vividly

[mystic ermine]

You don't really learn the emotions or what was going on under the surface, and that's why I think to a large part, we're doomed to repeat our failures

[solar gate]

facts

[daring locust]

yeah, most of my history stuff is explaining why you think things happened based on a couple sources

[solar gate]

I remember that

[daring locust]

not the best way, but it's better than asking what happened in this year

[solar gate]

It's good to talk to older people too, when I was 15 our family doctor and I kind of became friends, and he'd take me flying and driving around. We talked about school, politics, medicine, everything he was into.. it was a really fulfilling experience for both of us

[daring locust]

the problem i have is putting my thoughts into words so i'm a really bad debate/discussion partner :p

[mystic ermine]

It's why I hate that much of this stuff is assessed

Like, with stuff like medical stuff, yea, you gotta know wtf you're talking about

But, when it comes to things like history, unless you're one of the people tryna dig it up and such, I think that history is better learned rather than tested

Like, how many years do we spend relearning the exact same history more or less with a bit of extra stuff thrown in there because hey we're a year older now to the degree that the lessons just become tiring

[solar gate]

If debates were through written text, and everyone had 30 minute slowmode, it would be perfect. All responses would be long and thought out, you would have time to address each point, and no one would have the opportunity to present new arguments before you'd adressed the last ones

What's with the weird edgy conservative memes today

[mystic ermine]

!ban @shy gulch politics is not a memes channel

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned alphasocke#7866 (politics is not a memes channel) [1 total infraction] -- electronicboy#8869.

[daring locust]

funny how that meme isn't even true

[solar gate]

^

[mystic ermine]

Urgh it happens

Typically we either get the right wing nutjobs or the "anybody who even looks to the right is hitler" folks

[daring locust]

i found a twitter thread a while back explaining why the covid vaccine was finished so fast relative to other vaccines, but it's in dutch and i cba to scroll

[mystic ermine]

new tech, afaik

[daring locust]

but basically: most of the research was already done

[mystic ermine]

Now we can actually easily take a sample of the DNS of the virus and put it into the vaccine in a much quicker manner vs the years of research and development needed to get something just like it quite right

only caveat is that this is the first vaccine of its type to actually be approved for any form of use

[daring locust]

afair that's what happened

[solar gate]

And it came at a very dramatic political time, there's bound to be hate from both sides

[mystic ermine]

I mean, it went from people not wanting to have it because it was "trumps vaccine"

and now those people who where against it are the one screaming at the people who don't wanna get it

[daring locust]

i get where the people who don't want to get it are coming from - it's new and not widely tested

[mystic ermine]

I heave health issues which puts a real caveat on it

[daring locust]

note to self: stop using colons when you can use a hyphen

[mystic ermine]

I kinda want it for the whole return to normal factor, and I don't wanna be turned away from outtings with peeps because I didn't get it

But, I mean, I've already been practically bed bound thanks to my health, I'm feeling mostly mentally dead right now, and it scares me that I could prolongue it or make it worse

[daring locust]

i don't see a real downside to getting it considering i don't have any health issues that would deter me from getting it

most people that i know are vocal against not getting it are either scared or have some tin foil hats on their head

[mystic ermine]

the issue is the hyper politicization of the vaccine

like, there have been causes where people have died attributed to the vaccine

[daring locust]

that is true

[mystic ermine]

But, talking about that can often lead you towards being identified as part of the right leaning looney bin, and so these things are often ignored by some, and screamed about by others, and so you have one side tryna keep it hush and the other shouting off the rooftops who then look over at the silent part of town like, "wait..."

[daring locust]

that's how it goes

but uh yeah

thanks for the discussion

im gonna dip

[mystic ermine]

o/

[daring locust]

suggesting you get some sleep as well

maybe on my rug?

[foggy fern]

The fact that it was the first mRNA vaccine, mRNA therapies are known to cause autoimmune issues, and the first company to say they had one had been failing for a decade to first that last issue made me wary of it

By the time I was able to get the vaccine enough time had passed and enough people had gotten it to mostly put my worries behind me so I got it

[plush crypt]

?warn @gilded trench Politics is not for memes

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Warned Kahzi#2407 (Politics is not for memes) [1 total infraction] -- Proximyst#6900.

[shy gulch]

Bjp

Op

[daring locust]

?

[daring locust]

why not?

it's to keep it out of general, and most people here are adults with some political knowledge

[tulip garnet]

why we got politics in minecraft

[torn wadi]

You could just look 1 up.

[plush crypt]

Because we're adults and adults like to discuss political views.

[tulip garnet]

but...this is just a block game

why will someone...nvm

[plush crypt]

Ok, don't participate then

[torn wadi]

Well. We aren't discussing the block game.

[tulip garnet]

wait im participating

[plush crypt]

If this server had been strictly block game, we wouldn't have taco supremacy, kittens, and Taylor Swift either

[tulip garnet]

hmm

lets talk about why are companies just switching to SIMPLIFIED LOGOS

as its good in some cases

but every thing has a yin and a yang

[plush crypt]

it's yin and yang

[tulip garnet]

jeez

just some mistakes

in typing furiously

rn

xD

[daring locust]

https://nos.nl/artikel/2385455-steun-voor-eerlijk-klimaatbeleid-zelfs-vleestaks-en-windmolens-bespreekbaar

apparently there's talk about taxing meat

as part of a new climate ruleset

[weary lake]

Haven't they been talking about that for years now

[daring locust]

probably, haven't kept up with it though

[weary lake]

Maybe in a decade it will actually happen

With the current leading party, I doubt this will happen

[daring locust]

yeah

i don't think they would do it unless there's massive public backlash after not passing it

[weary lake]

Yeah, but I don't think there's gonna be much backlash if they don't do this tbh

[daring locust]

sadly

[inland pebble]

taxing meat is fucking stupid

[daring locust]

it is, especially considering lots of farmers here don't have a successor

[inland pebble]

and because it is in the netherlands many people will just go to belgium or germany to buy their shit

it also won't have any positive effect on emissions

[daring locust]

no, dutch people hella lazy

especially when it comes to groceries

[inland pebble]

although it is true that the meat industry is responsible for around 15% of emissions (got that number in my head from somewhere), completely avoiding meat would only reduce emissions by 2,6%

[daring locust]

that is still something

[inland pebble]

because most animal food isn't stuff people can digest but rather stuff like grass or other byproducts of farming

well, instead of pushing veganism it would be way more effective to push for more renewable energy production

animals make the entire food chain way more efficient

[daring locust]

taxing meat is part of it

[weary lake]

Green parties will probably still push for that 2.6% reduction, though

[inland pebble]

yea but that idea is stupid af

because you can invest it way more wisely

also, only around 1/3 of all land can be used to grow plants, meaning you can't do much else on the other 2/3 of the land except for animal stuff

veganism won't solve climate change

[daring locust]

veganism doesn't save anything tbh

[inland pebble]

yea

it'll just increase food prices and have pretty much no other effects

[daring locust]

but i think making it more attractive to pick a vegetarian option might have a small effect

[inland pebble]

2,6% reduction of emissions if the entire population goes vegan

and higher food prices

so it's not really worth it

[daring locust]

of course

it's not a real thing yet

they're still going to have a debate over it

for a couple months 👀

[inland pebble]

well i hope they do

so it boosts my german economy 👍

[daring locust]

it's probably going to be limitations for companies and more clean energy plans

[inland pebble]

well, you don't need a meat tax to do that

i think i remember denmark implementing a fat tax and it went horribly

[daring locust]

that sounds funny

gonna look that up

[weary lake]

It'd take me 1.5 hours to get to Germany to do groceries, I doubt many people will go to Germany because of this

[inland pebble]

well, people at the border will definitely go over to germany and buy their shit there

and local businesses will have huge deficits

[daring locust]

the only thing people go to germany or belgium for is fireworks

[weary lake]

Local businesses may actually see a visible boost, but larger businesses probably not much.

[near glen]

No single action will solve climate change. It's not that simple, lol
(Not a vegan)

We need actions in every single part of our live to make a difference

[plush crypt]

Going vegan-ish (i.e. for the most part; fully vegetarian at least) is more to just make a small gesture with a lot of health benefits in my case. Often, the change to help the planet more is fairly easy and cheap to do, and it's just about seeking them out when possible ^^

[pure jetty]

https://twitter.com/SCOTUSblog/status/1405526630458556428?s=19

SCOTUSblog (@SCOTUSblog)

BREAKING: The Supreme Court rejects the constitutional challenge to Obamacare in 7-2 opinion. The court tosses the lawsuit because the challengers do not have legal standing to sue. https://t.co/meuQgPE50Z

Retweets

1168

Likes

2309

Twitter · Jun 17, 2021, 2:03 PM

Not the best way to keep it but HEY at least it's kept!

[foggy fern]

Wow I really thought Gorsuch and Thomas were going to get their chance to destroy the court's severability case law

[pure jetty]

kavanaugh and barrett joined the majority too

[foggy fern]

Wow it was Alito on the other side, not Thomas

[pure jetty]

damn communist Texans

[foggy fern]

Oh, the case turned in to California v Texas because when the Fifth Circuit overturned the severability argument from a lower court but kept the ruling that the individual mandate was now unconstitutional California led several other states intervened to argue against that

The Court's reasoning for standing is kind of hilarious

Texas says it's unconstitutional because the "tax" got dropped to $0, Court says since the "tax" is $0 there is no injury

[foggy fern]

They also make it clear they consider the individual mandate unenforceable now too which is an obvious conclusion, that's why it was set to $0

Neither logic nor evidence suggests that an unenforceable mandate will cause state residents to enroll in valuable benefits pro-grams that they would otherwise forgo.

[shy gulch]

Kövér Elvtárs

[pure jetty]

english only please

[mystic ermine]

We've had a community which interacts about stuff outside of block game stuff for years, even before discord was a thing, we can't expect people to change just because we have a discord now, hence the channel; if you're not happy with the discord not just being a block game discord, you are more than welcome to leave

discord centered around block game server can only talk about block game! How dare people in there who have lives outside of block game talk about non block game stuff!

[foggy fern]

Trying to do things like that just results in all of us hanging out in the NotPaper discord talking about "offtopic" things and ignoring #paper-help and #paper-dev

This isn't a job, it's a community

The community has interests other than block game

[shut vine]

I mean, in general talking about political things is mostly a waste of time regardless of where it is. The only real benefit is to discover different ideas and help others discover different ideas. To actually have a meaningful impact you have to run for office and win. Doing anything else and expecting anything other than a superficial result is mostly delusional.

[shy gulch]

Actively not wanting to be dead is deathphobia, and, therefore, you are deathphobic. Read up on Death Liberation, follow dead activists and creators, and commit to unlearning your deathphobia!

[plush crypt]

?ban @shy gulch Asshole

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned Tom the Schemer#8958 (Asshole) [2 total infractions] -- Proximyst#6900.

[daring locust]

spigot thread inc

[shy gulch]

Discord servers are not communities

[mystic ermine]

this is a discord server for the paper community, of which many people in here have spoken and been friends with one another for years, including discussions about, well, literally everything

[shy gulch]

I hope this is not too pollitical

but what is your opinion on lettuce

[loud flax]

there is so much more to this block game than some of these people will even try to understand

like how it got so many of us into learning Java

Notch' influence went way beyond what he ever thought he'd ever do with this game

[torn wadi]

If you ignore all the context, yeah.

As most people in the current time do.

[plush crypt]

Regardless of all the bad opinions I have about him, he objectively had a very big impact on many, many people's lives. Although he is himself not a good influence, I can't say he hasn't affected my life in many good ways

[near glen]

Ah yes

[plush crypt]

wat

[near glen]

If you can't even accept the influence notchs creation (and thus notch himself) had on you, am really sorry for you

[plush crypt]

He is the reason I got into development, which is now my job. He had a good impact on me, despite his views

[near glen]

Ppl aren't all good or all bad, ppl have different sides, it's a scale, etc

Its not as easy as the twitter mob wants you to think

But I guess Americans don't know better, they are burned by their tails political system that they call a democracy

[tough cedar]

Wellp, guess I was Influenced by an evil dude as well. O well I guess

[near glen]

Oh lord

Nuance, that's what's missing in American society

[loud flax]

The guy said some racist things ok. He said some transphobic things, ok. I personally don't believe he had any bad intentions at all... and I'm sure there are tweets he's written that do away with all of that anyways, so I personally don't believe he's racist or transphobic at all

do you have a view that morality is objective? if not, then this means really nothing to me, tbh

[urban vector]

you just think there's tweets he made that made up for it?

like yeah the guy's a twat but even bad people can influence people, even in a positive way sometimes

[loud flax]

@near glen linked a video sometime back that goes into detail on Notch's persona and how people have reacted to him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQOxnhX0D0U

people today don't do enough justice for themselves and look this much into the people they criticize

it's the sort of thing where, like, you look at this girl and think she's just a triggered person but when you look at the actual source video where this image comes from, you realize that she actually wasn't triggered at all and the image is taken out of context

[urban vector]

alright, i finally got round to watching that video after it's been posted in response to notch and it's dumb af - you can't use past actions as evidence against a current and ongoing trend in personality/speech. the idea that because he made some good tweets ages go and that somehow absolves him or muddies the idea of him being bigoted is just wrong, people and their opinions change over time and can't be viewed in some sort of vacuum of current circumstances. we don't have the luxury of being able to judge people based solely on a combination of all the things that they have said, sadly we have to take into account when they said things, how it was received, what their responses were, how they have evolved and changed over time, what they did to ensure a correct interpretation of their thoughts, etc etc.

the point at the end is also dumb and has just boiled down to am argument over semantics, i.e. are you bigoted for holding a hatred/prejudice against people or just for doing/saying bigoted things. more importantly, is the distinction even meaningful or useful when discussing people and the ideas they hold. of course we cannot know for sure what opinions he actually holds, we haven't yet developed mind reading tools. however what we can do is make educated guesses and comment on how an individual's actions would be perceived.

[loud flax]

so you've elevated him to the status of hitler, 'grats, I don't think I get to take you seriously anymore

[urban vector]

he did come out later with a tepid walk back on that particular statement

[shy gulch]

Wtf Notch is Hitler?
I love notch now

[near glen]

!kick @shy gulch

[feral hearth]

Command kick requires 2 argument(s) (<user:user|snowflake> <reason:str...>) passed 1

[shy gulch]

Rude

[near glen]

Eraser, I don't think I need a reason for that

[shy gulch]

Still rude

[near glen]

!kick @shy gulch if this is all you want to contribute, don't come back

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Kicked Lurtz#0033 (if this is all you want to contribute, don't come back) [1 total infraction] -- MiniDigger#3086.

[inland pebble]

I think the entire discussion about trans people is fucked up

One side doesn't recognize the other side's feelings and experiences, the other side calls everyone they don't agree with transphobes

The latter happened to Notch

I am not an expert in Biology but there is still a conversation about gender dysphoria being a mental illness

Notch being on on the other side of the argument suddenly makes him hate all trans people?

This is some fucked up black/white thinking

Either you're with me or you're a transphobe

[near glen]

As I said, nuance is important

[inland pebble]

Well, social norms also have their benefits in pursuing personal happiness and social stability

Many millenials and gen zs are unhappy, as there is less and less norms to rely on

Yes, I am not against changes in social norms

[near glen]

Holy fuck

You realize that these issues have existed for basically ever, but just now we as a society are mature enough to accept it?

Uff

[daring locust]

you're starting to sound a bit tin foil hatty there

[near glen]

First of, as a german I can tell you, stop talking about Hitler if you have no fucking clue

[stable sable]

is it just me or is this portraying Hitler as good

[near glen]

Oh suddenly there is nuance?

[urban vector]

yeah sorry vinyl but literally the whole of biology/medicine/sociology/psychology and essentially every large health organisations disagrees with you here lmao

[stable sable]

we know that hitler was one person most devoid of nuance, or shades of gray

[inland pebble]

Well, the Weimar Republic after the thirties was pretty fucked and there were many nazi/commie extremists, because gender identity stuff is more left leaning (especially at that time) it would kinda be reasonable to see a connection there, but it definitely wasn't the reason hitler came to power

[near glen]

Well, Hitler hated everyone who was different

Even tho that fuck head wasn't even German, lmfao

[inland pebble]

Well, Austria kinda is German

[near glen]

It really isn't

Austrian ppl are wwaaay extreme

That's like comparing Texas to California or smth

[inland pebble]

Well, a majority identified as German at that time, the Anschluss was probably wanted more by the Austrians than the Germans

[near glen]

Sure, they speak the same language, with an accent, but that's about it

[inland pebble]

But after WW2 less and less Austrians identify as German and a different culture has formed

But culturally speaking Austria is still close to Germany

[near glen]

I guess yeah

Doesn't really matter here tho

[inland pebble]

Yea

[opal moat]

!ban @shy gulch fuck off with your political transphobia, not welcome here

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned Vinyl#6455 (fuck off with your political transphobia, not welcome here) [1 total infraction] -- aurora#4484.

[daring locust]

dammit

took too long to put my thoughts into words again

[gritty robin]

Does the bot delete messages by banned people?

[stable sable]

seems so

idk i would prefer if he was still on here, since he wasnt a troll, he just had a very negative opposing viewpoint to the rest of us

but i respect all the mods decisions

i personally think we should be trying to get open conversation going, even if its totally against what we all think

oh yeah

that part was kind of stupid

[gritty robin]

I don’t care about his opinions or whether he was a troll or not, just wanted to see what he was posting

[stable sable]

kinda forgot abt that statement by him😅

[daring locust]

tldr on his statements: all negative evidence i can find against gender identity

[gritty robin]

What were they actually saying though

Since we cant see it now

[stable sable]

transphobic comments and comments indirectly saying hitler is good

so kind of a troll

[gritty robin]

Also on another note, while i do understand taking offense to people saying offensive stuff, is cursing in the ban reason really necessary?

[daring locust]

eu people like to put swears into most things

source: the entire population of the netherlands between 13 and 24

[gritty robin]

Idk, the reason field in a ban is for the staff team to remember why that person was banned, if its just meaningless comments like the one above its harder to keep track of

[stable sable]

open platforms of speech are better in my opinion, but the guy was a borderline troll and i fully respect any decisions made by the mod team

[weary lake]

We change the reason later if it's unclear

[stable sable]

yeah they could be made more specific

[opal moat]

transphobia is a pretty specific ban reason for us to have

[daring locust]

only #politics bans have "unnecessary" additions 👀

to me the ban reason is pretty clear though

political transphobia not welcome here

[near glen]

The initial ban reason is more like a message to the user

We later change them for bookkeeping

[gritty robin]

Alright then

[opal moat]

if they need to be changed, in this case the message is clear enough for everyone in the team to know why the person was banned

[near glen]

Yeah was a general statement

[stable sable]

thank you both for clarifying how you moderate

[gritty robin]

It may be clear enough to you because you were there when it happened, anybody who just randomly see this ban with such a reason has no idea what happened

[daring locust]

see reason -> neuron activation -> use given context to think about why they were banned

[gritty robin]

Why this passive aggressiveness? Im just presenting what is in my opinion a pretty fair argument

[daring locust]

if you can't use the reason for a ban to make up the context, idk what to tell you

[gritty robin]

“fuck off with your political transphobia, not welcome here” sure is a lot of context… especially for staff members who tend to label off quite a broad list of topics as transphobia and ban on sight

[daring locust]

context: hmm maybe the guy was spouting some political transphobic bullshit

[opal moat]

Transphobia is a ban reason in our zero-tolerance section in the community guidelines

[pure jetty]

We do not ban people for disagreeing with us, only if you violate the guidelines

"market place of ideas"

[urban vector]

I mean its not like what he said was false that scientist dude who came up with gender was a fucking creep and the two twins later did kill themselves.
it is though - this guy who you're talking about didn't "come up with gender" he was one of several people who invented the concept of a difference between sex and gender at a conference with a whole bunch of other people. additionally, the idea of a differentiation between sex and some sociological "role" was floating around decades before this conference anyway

and besides, outside of western academia the concept of a difference between the biological and the role you play in society has existed for thousands of years before this

what is free speech, is the paper discord being able to ban someone for violating their guidelines

who is saying you said that lmao

[near glen]

Our rules are nicely documented, you don't have to agree with them, you just have to follow them

[gritty robin]

Well you also cant let anybody spread these borderline terroristic messages in a public fucking forum

[near glen]

The rules have been developed with our community and are widely accepted

[gritty robin]

Cmon bruh

I do still agree that the staff team is sort of trigger happy here, but in this instance specifically there’s nothing to argue about, the atrocities committed during WW2 have no justification and have no place in a public discussion forum

Just because you can say whatever you want doesn’t mean you should, or is allowed on the platform you’re speaking on

There are however a few dark web websites that I’m sure could accommodate the average neo nazi

Haha kenny said penis

Well isn’t that quite a sawy from topic

[near glen]

This is mostly a channel for regulars, as in, ppl who have known each others for years at this point and like a place to talk about political topics. It's not a platform to host extremist discussions.

Uff

Let me explain

If you let one Nazi use your platforms, others will join, try to convince other members of your community and undermine everything your community stands for and suddenly you have a community filled with Nazis.

I am German. I know how this works. If you don't stop these views on first sight, they will devour your community.

Don't you guys learn this in school?

[glossy sandal]

This isn't a high school debate channel

[near glen]

Last time I checked high schools debate club didn't have topic like "should we kill all Jews, yes or no?", Lmao

Because that's what Nazis do. Nazis kill.

[glossy sandal]

Also did this guy admit to ban evading or are they just saying dont ban me then give their 6head take

[torn wadi]

Can't have such easy topics now can we. /s

[near glen]

Should we nuke the Balkan bridge, yes or no

😂

[glossy sandal]

You would think it's a high school debate channel cuz of how many teenage edgelords come in here trying to fight people on extremist ideas cuz they thinks it's funny

Was it instantly deleted after u posted it?

[opal moat]

Auto filter for ableist slurs

[urban vector]

"wahhh why won't this community let me talk about nazis and say ableist slurs wahh plss"

[opal moat]

Ableism is not welcome here, see our community guidelines

[near glen]

!kick @shy gulch read our community guidelines before you come back, https://papermc.io/community-guidelines

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Kicked guru#6408 (read our community guidelines before you come back, https://papermc.io/community-guidelines) [1 total infraction] -- MiniDigger#3086.

[opal moat]

Good link mini

Works great lol

Ah just mobile sucking

Nevermind

[near glen]

Mmh? It's only broken in the output of the bot on Android, should be fine for him

[inland pebble]

Would be calling someone dumb be ableistic?

[inland pebble]

This link no works

[opal moat]

To explain this a bit: We do look at account age and how long someone was on the server etc. If someone with a relative new account joins, and only ever writes in politics, and immediately starts talking about Hitler, it's usually a strong indication for a troll. This is a minecraft community in the first place

[opal moat]

It's just broken in the bot message on mobile. Here you go: https://papermc.io/community-guidelines

[inland pebble]

Is saying "I'm fucking blind" when you didn't see/notice something ableism?

[opal moat]

Technically yes, but it's not counted in our guidelines. We explicitly state what is allowed and what isn't

[inland pebble]

I don't think using the r word is bad if you're not using it with offensive intent

[near glen]

It's offensive if you are affected

[inland pebble]

This whole ableism thing should be about intent

[opal moat]

Ableist slurs are words that refer to people with disabilities used as insults

[inland pebble]

Nah man, there are probably loads of disabled people that couldn't care less if you used it in a funny joke or something

It's always up to context I'd say

The intent and how it was received by the other person

[opal moat]

hence why the word filter consists out of like 3 words that are almost exclusively used as insults, everything else is up to context

[urban vector]

just because people who aren't offended by a it exist doesn't mean that open communities (such as this) are not better off preventing the usage of said words in order to provide a more comfortable space for those impacted by it

[opal moat]

But then again, if the context is insulting someone, then you have ableism

[inland pebble]

Yea, but the 3 words censored can be used in a non offensive way, hence why censor them

[opal moat]

not really

not those 3

[glossy sandal]

[opal moat]

as usual, terms you use to describe yourself if you are affected are something different than other people using them. It's the same with any other bad word ever. Fine as a self description when you are affected, not fine to describe others

As a verified Discord server we have to have certain rules and follow Discords community standards, easy as that

Also, like, we just don't want that here?

[gritty robin]

I wonder what happens with the screen reader that blind people use if someone says the r word and it gets instantly deleted

Would it go haywire

[opal moat]

https://discord.com/guidelines

[inland pebble]

Those rules are kinda stupid I think, they totally neglect intent

Context determines whether something is used in a disrespectful way

[glossy sandal]

So with your intent logic someone can say nword cuz they dont mean it to be bad?

[urban vector]

in real life, intent is relatively easy to see - this isn't real life and intent is hard and messy and it's easy to backtrack

[glossy sandal]

Are they used now?

[urban vector]

some would argue they are, but it's about more than just meaning it's also about usage/etc

[opal moat]

fun fact, all of those words are ableist^^

[inland pebble]

Well, pretty much everyone thinks blacks can say it, so that kinda is a double standard

[glossy sandal]

[urban vector]

pls dont say "blacks"

[opal moat]

as I said before, self description vs third person description

But anyway

This is not the place to discuss our community guidelines

[inland pebble]

What's wrong with that

[urban vector]

blimey this is like baby's first politeness lesson today

[opal moat]

Our community guidelines are the foundation of this community. If you can't adhere to those roles, this community is not the right place for you. In general, I'd really recommend just not using this channel ever and just listening to the minecraft stuff

[inland pebble]

I don't see what's wrong with that

[glossy sandal]

We can tell

[urban vector]

when you say "blacks" you are centering the phrase on the "otherness" and group, when you say black people you are using it correctly, as a description

[opal moat]

For the third time: self description vs third person description

You're always free to leave, no one is forcing you to stay here

[urban vector]

concern trolling is so boring lmao

[full trellis]

isn't that asking a lot from non-native speakers? like how the hell am I supposed to know that

[inland pebble]

I don't think "blacks" focuses more on "otherness" than "whites" does

[urban vector]

it doesn't...

id say they were both wrong terms to use

[inland pebble]

Yea and I don't use blacks or whites with offensive intent, so I don't see what's wrong

[near glen]

Ppl shouldnt be required to have a big armor suit for taking part in this community, metaphorically speaking

[urban vector]

but one of these groups has been the victim of systematic oppression and the other hasn't

[glossy sandal]

You can go be ignorant in your own servers and irl but not here

[urban vector]

nobody is expecting you to - a simple "oh my bad i'll try not to use it again" is fine

[inland pebble]

And how does that change the word

[urban vector]

blimey do we need to get into how society impacts language now

[opal moat]

I love how every time something get's discussed in politics it's not actual politics but "why am I not allowed to offend people anymore"

[glossy sandal]

You cant make people try to CHANGE? Wtf!!

[inland pebble]

Also, whites are openly discriminated in some African countries, not on societal level (like blacks in the us) but rather on a state level

[urban vector]

do you know what systematic oppression means

[inland pebble]

I don't mean to offend anyone

[glossy sandal]

Classic

[opal moat]

then I'd suggest to stop talking tbh

[urban vector]

if not, id recommend leaving this conversation, learning and reading up on what it is you're talking about and then come back when you actually understand the issues you're trying to discuss here

this channel isn't # politics-help

[glossy sandal]

Maybe politics should become a whitelisted channel like adorable-cats

[full trellis]

oh yeah, let's create an echo-chamber

[urban vector]

what's political is that i have a cat allergy but love cats 😔

[full trellis]

that's what they are called, right?

[near glen]

Nah, I think we just need to keep new accounts out that aren't part of our community yet

[opal moat]

that's the real issue here tbh

[urban vector]

if it was an echo chamber half of you wouldn't be here lmfao

[full trellis]

I never said it is

[glossy sandal]

Nah it's only an echo chamber if my bad takes aren't accepted

[opal moat]

"hey we don't allow hate speech and slurs here"
"wow censorship much literally echo chamber"

[glossy sandal]

Also something something snowflakes

[full trellis]

you guys really seem to be misunderstanding me here

[opal moat]

not directed at you Trig just general 😄

[full trellis]

cool

I am criticizing the idea of a whitelist, nothing more

[glossy sandal]

There are actually a lot of people here who are right leaning that dont break community guidelines

[opal moat]

I'd honestly love to have this channel removed alltogether but maybe we will look into some sort of time based permission system for the future. So not really a whitelist but "you have to be in this server for x hours before you can write in #politics "

[full trellis]

sounds reasonable

[near glen]

Well, assuming you actually read our guidelines, you shouldn't have anything to worry about as long as you adhere to them

[near glen]

Even in the highest level of the staff team

[glossy sandal]

It's only gets like this when new throwaway accounts pay it a visit

[urban vector]

i've personally had some lovely discussions here

[glossy sandal]

Usually its sharing links to political news and talking about that shit

[daring locust]

and that's how it should be

imo

[opal moat]

yeah, you know, actual politics lol

yes

[urban vector]

unironically yes

[opal moat]

ableism is not funny in any way shape or form

[full trellis]

let's take a step back, how is any word funny?

[opal moat]

so you're not using it with a malicious intention, you're just ignorant

[full trellis]

well some notable people here probably feel/felt the same

[opal moat]

and they have received their punishment

[glossy sandal]

That's why leaf was muted for a year

[torn wadi]

Depends on which definition you use.

[urban vector]

this is like that gif of the guy talking to a brick wall

[glossy sandal]

[opal moat]

You are using a term used to described disabled people to insult someone. How do you not get how that is insulting

[glossy sandal]

Again you can be as ignorant, ableist, or racist as you want to your friends just not here how hard is this to grasp

[daring locust]

https://google.it

[glossy sandal]

Just google donowall

[opal moat]

No one cares what you do with yourself, but you are not alone here

we live in a society, unironically

[glossy sandal]

Because its offensive

[opal moat]

Yes, because that's what I think of people that think ableist terms are funny

[glossy sandal]

God will know

[opal moat]

god I'm getting tired of this troll. This is not something to discuss here, end of topic

You don't have to understand, just accept it

I don't do educational work for free

[glossy sandal]

You say that but you havent actually comprehended anything anyone's told you for the past hour

So

[opal moat]

great, end of topic

[near glen]

The issue is that you don't drop a topic when told so by staff

[glossy sandal]

If all you focus on is labels that's all you'll see

[pure jetty]

ok!

you're free to say anything that follows guidelines

[glossy sandal]

Idk how else to explain what I said it's extremely straightforward

[gritty robin]

Did they end up sending help though

[near glen]

taking part in this channel isn't a requirement

the ppl that regularly use this channel enjoy it

[glossy sandal]

[pure jetty]

they said large portion

and they only said anything about respect for queer people

[daring locust]

here we go again...

[glossy sandal]

You cling to arguments so much guru wtf man

Just chill out for once

[pure jetty]

i mean guru I haven't seen any data from you

nobody is us vs them-ing

you watch way too much dave rubin

you said the marketplace of ideas and you're telling me you don't know who dave rubin is

lmfao ok

[daring locust]

why would that be? maybe because there would be massive backlash?

[pure jetty]

hate speech laws would never happen in the US either

[near glen]

free speech literally doesn't exist

free speech is always limited by other laws

or try screaming "I have a bomb" at an airport, lol

or "I wanna kill the president"

[pure jetty]

well no mini

[near glen]

its not a threat, am just exercising my right to free speech?

[pure jetty]

saying that stuff isn't illegal per say

you will be detained and whatever

but you cannot be convicted on that speech itself

[urban vector]

at least in the uk you can be convicted for inciting violence (or some hate speech in general)

[pure jetty]

you could maybe get a search warrant from that and if you had the means to back up those threats in like your house you could then be charged for those crimes

[urban vector]

just say you don't really care about minorities already guru lmao

[pure jetty]

but yeah inciting violence isn't really a thing here unless you conspire

you will get 3 letter agencies at your door however

[near glen]

oh man that explains stuff about the US

thankfully it doesnt work that way over here

[pure jetty]

i mean i think our speech laws save us in more ways than hurt

[near glen]

what do they save you from?

like, it doesnt even save you from discussions like "I can#t even say X anymore", you got those too, right?

[opal moat]

I love getting yelled at with hate speech without knowing if they just want to do free speech or actually wanna kill me, fun times

[urban vector]

equality to incite hate against minorities - the best kind of equality /s

[opal moat]

that is not really true

[urban vector]

that is not a meaningful distinction

[glossy sandal]

Yeah Aurora just carry a gun then /s

Unironically why not be an asshole

[pure jetty]

if anything those discussions show you how free speech laws work, the majority has pushed off those ideas to a point where bigots feels cornered, left pandering to the "ughhh i HATE how i cant call people the R word AM I RitE??!?!!"

[near glen]

because this is europe and thats not allowed, lmao

[pure jetty]

why are you just bringing up shit

randomly

[glossy sandal]

When did I equate to owning a gun to being an asshole

[pure jetty]

to start arguments

[near glen]

a gun is a tool to kill ppl

don't think untrained ppl should have that

ever

[urban vector]

what a shock

[opal moat]

got please just shut up and leave this is tiring

[glossy sandal]

Next month in texas you can own a gun without any license or training so

[near glen]

what could go wrong

an americans wonder why they have the highest rate of deadly mass shootings

[glossy sandal]

Imagine if they just let people drive without a license or going through training

[near glen]

oh right, I forgot, its the ppl that kill, not the guns

[near glen]

yeah, lmao, need more training to drive a car than use a machine that is literally designed to kill

[urban vector]

which is why the rate of murders is exactly equal per capita in every single country

oh wait...

[glossy sandal]

I mean I thought everyone was really for gun safety regardless of political standing

Like people get irrationally mad when they dont follow gun safety

Why would they remove that requirement

Texas trying its hardest to outdo Florida and it shows

[urban vector]

i can't wait

[near glen]

we need a floria man vs texas man competition

(side now, its always man, not woman)

[opal moat]

no

[urban vector]

definitely not

a history of poor mental health

[pure jetty]

too much responsibility

[glossy sandal]

I wouldn't mind but I really have no reason to own one

[near glen]

no need for one?

[pure jetty]

banning and owning are much different however

so idk why you're talking about owning

[near glen]

do you own one?

[opal moat]

because
1 - there is no reason for someone like me to own a gun
2 - too much responsibility
3 - too dangerous
4 - I'd probably hurt someone
5 - I'd probably hurt myself
6 - no one should own a gun tbh

[urban vector]

but even if my mental health had always been spotless i have literally zero reason to own a gun nor do i even think id want to have one for fun

[glossy sandal]

No

[near glen]

no there are valid uses, I am for controlling them

[pure jetty]

in the US, no

[near glen]

which we do over here

[faint radish]

I def would like to own a gun in the future. Not for hunting, or anything, but for protecting myself.

[pure jetty]

not worth the political capital nor would it be effective in the US

[urban vector]

eh, im not sold either way tbh - i do personally support massive amounts of gun control

[opal moat]

I'm in favour of banning deadly fire arms. No one should have a gun that fires metal bullets, if police really need something they can use tazers or rubber bullets

[near glen]

from whom?

[faint radish]

Anyone trying to hurt me?

[near glen]

do you get ppl that want to hurt you?

[glossy sandal]

If I owned a house I'd own a gun imo

[opal moat]

I do, but I don't want a gun

[pure jetty]

yeah guns are tied to property a lot in the US

goes back to probably the revolution tbh

[faint radish]

On the off chance that I do run into someone like that, yeah. I want to be able to protect me and my property.

[pure jetty]

but as more move to renting, gun ownership is also declining

there was a great video on this sec

[opal moat]

but wouldnt something non lethal work as well Jake?

[pure jetty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1iQUF1gQmI

there it is

[faint radish]

Absolutely not. I want bullets that do maximum damage. To make sure I stop someone

[opal moat]

Like why does it have to be a gun, there are enough weapons for self defense that don't kill

[faint radish]

That is the best way to stop someone

[glossy sandal]

Why ask the question if you're going to get mad at the response

[pure jetty]

i don't think people in favor of banning them think police shouldn't have them

[glossy sandal]

No logic there

[opal moat]

same issue with a knife or just bare hands really, don't get your argument

[faint radish]

Do you remember that police had to shoot the gorilla in that zoo where that baby had climbed into the enclosure?

It’s not the same thing obv, but a bullet can stop someone in their tracks instantly

[near glen]

police had to shoot

[pure jetty]

oh didn't see that

[urban vector]

the gorilla was just chillin

[near glen]

look, we got an authority that is able to use guns no problem then

[urban vector]

i thought we all agreed that lmao

[glossy sandal]

Man guru really just tried to invoke an actual conversation just to go attack the first person they disagreed with

Crazy

[shadow shard]

Disagreement ≠ attack

[faint radish]

I think you completely missed the point. I don’t want to have to rely on anyone else, much less the government, for my self defense. Ofc I’d rather they protect me as that’s safer for me, but not at the cost of me not being able to protect myself

[urban vector]

unarmed police are brilliant

deescalation is better than threatening

[glossy sandal]

Read everything they've said to Aurora since they said they want to ban guns and you tell me if that applies

[urban vector]

correction, unarmed police are the best police but still acab

[pure jetty]

oh god

[opal moat]

Okay, let's rephrase what I meant: Police should not carry a gun by default on their uniform. Have one in your car or whatever when you need them for some reason

[sand coyote]

i lost 500 neurons just by staying in this channel for 3 minutes

[faint radish]

“acab”… really?

[opal moat]

great then leave

[pure jetty]

the problem is tasers and rubber bullets aren't effective 100% of the time and they are really slow compared to guns

[urban vector]

i am secretly an undercover leftist

[shadow shard]

I think here are two options, either nobody has guns or everyone has them.

[near glen]

don't think such terms should be used here tbh

[pure jetty]

and acab is such rhetoric cancer

[opal moat]

all cats are beautiful

[shadow shard]

Since you can't stop people from having guns, potential victims should have some for protection

[pure jetty]

it means 100 different things and only creates division

[near glen]

acab undermines all actual valid criticism of police

[urban vector]

i can't really disagree tbh

[glossy sandal]

That isnt any sort of plausible situation ever

You cant just flip a switch

[opal moat]

What is your opinion on drugs then?

[pure jetty]

decriminalize

don't have to legalize

[shadow shard]

Habilitate

[pure jetty]

sure

[near glen]

legalizing is stupid. decriminalize and give addicts the treatment they need. they are sick, not criminals

[faint radish]

You know, I’d me more on board with decriminalizing more drugs, if taxpayers didn’t have to pay a cent to people who used them and didn’t care about fixing their problem. But that’ll never happen

[pure jetty]

we already spend a fuck ton on imprisoning people with drug stuff

LET ALONE weed-related "crimes"

[shadow shard]

Not everyone is 100% smart all the time.

You can be stupid once and ruin your life

[urban vector]

legalizing drugs is dumb - if there's one thing we don't need it's companies finding out new ways to make people addicted for stuff

[opal moat]

decriminalizing drug use would stop a lot of systemic racism. Not a huge percent but probably still a good chunk

[glossy sandal]

The amount of revenue the states and federal government can make off of weed taxes is literally insane

[shadow shard]

I fail to see how race has anything to do with this

[pure jetty]

black people are disproportionately represented in weed arrests

[shadow shard]

Aha

[glossy sandal]

Oh god

For profit rehabs

[shadow shard]

There is a reason there is a rail on bridges. You can say "stupid peaple should fall off lmao"

[glossy sandal]

Just look at for profit prisons

[opal moat]

what if with people that want to get help but can't afford it?

[pure jetty]

ok dude

[urban vector]

great insight thank you guru

[glossy sandal]

Ok keep trolling

[faint radish]

[opal moat]

I can send you my paypal if you want to change that thx

[shadow shard]

Guru you had some good points earlier, but I guess Adios

[glossy sandal]

The amount of trolls that survive in politics chat is crazy

[shadow shard]

Troll card exposed

[near glen]

lmfao

[opal moat]

welp, had a good run

[glossy sandal]

Ever since brocc quit is politics moderator job this place has changed

[pure jetty]

brocc was always the jester 🙄

[opal moat]

!ban @shy gulch Trolling, Ableism, In general this server is not a server for political discussion, if you only want to discuss politics please do so somewhere else

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned guru#6408 (Trolling, Ableism, In general this server is not a server for political discussion, if you only want to discuss politics please do so somewhere else) [2 total infractions] -- aurora#4484.

[urban vector]

what are you talking about kahzi

[pure jetty]

they said the r word

[urban vector]

... that didn't happen but okay

[daring locust]

don't talk if you don't know shit :)

[urban vector]

that might explain it

[loud flax]

Jordan Peterson once said that in order to think, you have to risk being offensive

[urban vector]

jodan peterson once forgot to tidy his room

[pure jetty]

Jordan should stick to philosophy

[loud flax]

problem is you can tell if people are being blatantly offensive

[pure jetty]

he's really good at bringing up problems without giving any solutions

in politics that is

[urban vector]

even the philosophy isn't great

what are they?

great

[pure jetty]

!ban @gilded trench transphobe

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned Kahzi#2407 (transphobe) [2 total infractions] -- Joshie#0001.

[inland pebble]

How is that being transphobic

[urban vector]

brick wall gif again

[loud flax]

so is it scientifically accurate that a person can neither be male nor female? I really want to understand this because it's a concept that messes with my head. I can understand feeling like you don't belong in your body, but to do away with being either of those? Help me understand this

[opal moat]

Yes it is

[loud flax]

well, wouldn't they technically be both? I mean.... referring to sex chromosomes, they are one biological sex

[urban vector]

no they wouldn't

[opal moat]

But you can also have chromosome variations

[urban vector]

sex refers to a combination of both your primary (chromosomes, hormones, etc) and secondary sex characteristics (genitals, muscle density, etc) - we have labels for sex (male/female) which are helpful as they cover the "bimodal distribution" of sex

[opal moat]

Helpful yes, accurate/complete no

[urban vector]

however, many, many people fall outside these distinct peaks - most without even realising it

so you can consider the terms male/female to be "descriptors" of a range of different sexes

[inland pebble]

But how do you distinguish something from just being abnormal to a totally different sex

[urban vector]

okay, please read what i said again

[loud flax]

so you would say there are more than just biological male and biological female?

[urban vector]

they aren't categories, they are descriptors

[loud flax]

XX and XY, anything else is abnormal

[urban vector]

which is incorrect btw vector, chromosomes don't solely determine sex

[loud flax]

so is a kid with down syndrome abnormal, or just a variation of what we'd call "normal"?

[opal moat]

Can you please stop calling people abnormal

[loud flax]

because the way it sounds here, being other than XX or XY is not abnormal

ok

[urban vector]

you're confusing normal with common - intersex people are uncommon, but they are not abnormal

[loud flax]

is abnormal an ableist term? i just want to know what i did wrong exactly

[urban vector]

well i suppose it could be yes, but it's more that you're using the wrong term

[opal moat]

It's just super insulting

[urban vector]

yeah definitely

[loud flax]

ah i see

"not common" is a more neutral way to explain what I was trying to, thanks

[pure jetty]

we have puberty blockers for that

[dusky raft]

that arent FDA approved and meant for other conditions

[opal moat]

A lot of meds are designed for other conditions

[urban vector]

it's not responsible - puberty blockers have been demonstrated in countless studies to be the most effective way of treating transgender youths

[opal moat]

Don't try to think of it as something you decide, because it isn't

[urban vector]

yup

[opal moat]

Exactly

I know

[urban vector]

which is why nobody wants kids to immediately transition

[opal moat]

But this isn't something you know from one day to the other

[urban vector]

what are you talking about

[daring locust]

NL has a year long wait period though :)

sometimes longer

[urban vector]

i mean im pretty sure it isn't

they can change their legal gender identity iirc

[opal moat]

No

[glossy sandal]

The replying to the message directly above your own smh I bet the ping is left on too

[urban vector]

it was on haha

two seconds of googling to find that you are wrong

you cannot be given irreversible hormone treatment until you are 18

do you even google shit before saying it

[daring locust]

and what source does wikipedia cite for that

[glossy sandal]

What do you see

[loud glade]

"trust me bro"

[foggy fern]

Deciding when a child is old enough to make decisions about their life is hard. The answer is definitely somewhere between 14 and 25 but I don't believe anyone has really nailed it down

I'd probably push it closer to 25

[opal moat]

And even if it is, those are very often life saving operations

[glossy sandal]

Why would you post Dutch in an English server bro

[foggy fern]

(if you're 25 or younger you're a child)

[urban vector]

did your read what i said system

irriversible

[opal moat]

Hormone treatments are reversible

[glossy sandal]

Translate bro we ain't Dutch

[opal moat]

You literally get estrogen as a dude when your hair falls out lol

[loud glade]

turning 17 soon, still gonna be a child according to amaranth

[foggy fern]

iirc brain development doesn't stop until 25

[urban vector]

i think the excuse is that you want to be transphobic under a veil of concern trolling but i mean sure lack of sleep works too

[glossy sandal]

Are you on the test discodd client to change the banner?

[loud glade]

omg

how many times

do i have to explain

this shit

[urban vector]

because it took two seconds of googling for me to find out what you were saying is wrong

[loud glade]

it's limited to a certain amount of random ppl and u can't manipulate discord to get it at all

[urban vector]

new copypasta nice

Well it was nice playing with you all. PaperMC has lost another supporter due to staff's incompetence. Don't take me the wrong way, you guys have something great going on here. It is just unfortunate that you can't update to 1.17. At the end of the day I am at least glad this happened before I donated the $100 I put aside to support this project. Oh well shit happens and life is not fair, cheers to all of you guys on Minecraft and thanks for the cheese, catch ya later

[opal moat]

Let me ask this way, would you rather have suicidal kids or happy kids

[pure jetty]

!ban @minor badge Ban Evasion

[feral hearth]

:raised_hands: Banned Super Duper Man#9906 (Ban Evasion) [1 total infraction] -- Joshie#0001.

[foggy fern]

No

[full trellis]

$100 lmao

[glossy sandal]

Ah yes I follow your conversations exclusively to know that you've discussed this before

[loud glade]

i've had to explain my profile banner and about me status over 50 times already

[glossy sandal]

Thata cool bro

New features people are going to ask

[loud glade]

yea but u can literally just hover over the beta icon

[foggy fern]

What and when children are allowed to do anything permanent to their body is an ongoing debate I don't think anyone will ever have a good answer for

[loud glade]

it explains itself there

[glossy sandal]

I'm on mobile

You could also be like, not a child about people asking you questions yeah

[loud glade]

i mean this channel's literally called politics why not

¯_(ツ)_/¯

israelis have been rlly islamophobic and racist very recently

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQMQuQsClAu/

[full trellis]

free palenstine from hamas! no need to be pro-palestine for that

[loud glade]

here

...

[pure jetty]

jesus fuck

[loud glade]

BRUH

[glossy sandal]

Were all of those replies pings

[pure jetty]

both sides have problems, the people who force nuance out of this discussion are part of the problem.

people saying israel shouldn't exist, or that there should be a one state solution are also in the wrong

[loud glade]

they're doing way more than they need to

[pure jetty]

iirc israel is giving warnings to civilians

i don't think the goal of israel is to kill even hamas (with the bombing), just destroy cover

[glossy sandal]

People with no bad intentions dont bomb cities

[dusky raft]

It could be worse, israel could just roll back on in and flatten everything like the US does when oil and weapons of mass destruction are even uttered.

why bomb selected targets when they can stream roll in gaza?

[pure jetty]

there are valid criticisms with israels response but i feel most of the common ones lack any idea about foreign policy and come off as US support this so it = bad

[dusky raft]

add in the fact that the enemy is known to use civilians at meatshields.

what do you want, artillery? can be inaccurate and miss intended target

remote missiles? same thing as what you said above.

[pure jetty]

i mean the drone program ended up killing less civilians/troops

so I would see that the lesser of two evils

[dusky raft]

that also, because the drone platform can more accurately hit targets

[full verge]

Wakefield MP Imran Ahmad Khan charged with sexually assaulting boy https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-57531904

Uk having a normal one

[gritty robin]

Last night actually

[mystic ermine]

I mean, that's the crazy of it all, is that there's a lot of sides of it all, but, then you've got hamas who cower behind civilians

[gritty robin]

And underground tunnels

And instagram celebrities

[near glen]

They are the underdogs being oppressed by Israel for years now

Not trying to say their methods are good

[mystic ermine]

underdogs who start lobbing missiles

[near glen]

But for them it feels like the only way to get attention on this issue

[mystic ermine]

Like, fuck israel, but, fuck hamas too

[near glen]

Am just saying that isreal is the only blocking a two state solution

They don't want a solution like that

They want everything

[gritty robin]

Not really

[restive seal]

I mean, sure, but if you've spent decades in an apartheid state getting your homes taken forcibly from you while the international community does nothing about it...

[gritty robin]

You’re wrong, israel was the one wanting that solution in the first place

[mystic ermine]

yea, so start lobbing missiles at innocent civilians rather than the politicians who do this shit

oh, wait

[torn wadi]

Looking at their "contract" with Kosovo... No, I don't think so.

[near glen]

Last I checked US and isreal were the only ones voting no last time

[gritty robin]

And when was that

[pure jetty]

Isreal obviously wants only them to exist

[near glen]

2013?

[pure jetty]

but like we can't do anything

they have nuclear weapons

[near glen]

I think it was 2013 don't quote me on that

[torn wadi]

Remember when Israel starter with shoot to maim?

[near glen]

Heh

[torn wadi]

Make sure to shoot them in the genitals, so we don't get more "Hamas" people.

[near glen]

Yeah, there are countless videos of israelian snipers laughting while maiming/shooting innocent civilians

That's why there are so many protests in isreal, lol

Didn't isreal just change their main religion too? To exclude Arabs?

[gritty robin]

And there’s videos of gazans welcomeing terrorists who just wiped out an entire family with celebrations

[near glen]

Protesting Israel is very different to anti-semitism

[gritty robin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_attack

Or just someone who just looks out of the ordinary

That actually happened to me once by mistake lol

I didn’t get executed but a few kids were running after me lol, i was on a bike so i just yeeted back

Yeah

To be fair there are a few orthodox jew communities that aren’t very welcoming towards outsiders too

But i guess that was my entire point here in the first place, people present a two sided argument as single sided, which is not how you argue lol

[torn wadi]

What about Israel not signing BWC?

[gritty robin]

What’s that?

[torn wadi]

Biological weapons convention.

To be fair they never really ratified chemical weapons anyway.

[gritty robin]

So is it nukes or chemical weapons?

[torn wadi]

All 3 actually.

[gritty robin]

Those to are rather different

[torn wadi]

Nukes, chemical and biological.

[gritty robin]

I have never heard anything about chemical or biological weapons being held here, so I personally highly doubt we have them at all

They most likely do have nuclear weapons though

[torn wadi]

If you don't have any, why not sign the convention?

[gritty robin]

I have no idea, i was not the one asked to sign

Seems like a reasonable thing to sign, especially if we most certainly don’t have them, but something prevented them from doing it, and maybe the reason is known, I don’t know

[torn wadi]

It's pretty known that they have nukes, since the Jericho missal silo is still maintained.

And you usually don't maintain something like that for no reason.

[gritty robin]

Do you thing the Palestinian Authority would sign that if they were asked to?

I don’t actually know if they were asked to, were they?

[torn wadi]

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/bwcsig

They did.

[gritty robin]

So they didn’t?

[torn wadi]

Not 100% sure, since if you look at the map, they did? But according to this list they didn't.
So that's a 300 IQ thing. Let's just say they didn't.

Tho:

The Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) currently has 183 states-parties, including Palestine, and four signatories (Egypt, Haiti, Somalia, and Syria).

So I have no idea.

Ok. So they signed it, but didn't rectify it.

[gritty robin]

Seems kinda vague but fair enough

[next spear]

My MC skin is Obama AND Trump, so I suit both parties 😎

[tough cedar]

damn bro, represent

[pure jetty]

OK!

man i got bad news if you think that's gonna happen

good one bro

ah right

so genuine 🥺

[loud flax]

too bad he can't compare to the president that came before him, and let's see...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA631bMT9g8

[gleaming ferry]

isreal sucks

[gleaming ferry]

change my mind

[pure jetty]

how about you provide literally anything to back up your position

because you've said something that could mean a n y t h i n g

[gleaming ferry]

you didnt bring anything against me

[pure jetty]

you didn't make a claim

[gleaming ferry]

.

i spelled it wrong

[pure jetty]

ok fine nobody is going to reply to you then

come back when you have a specific position

[gleaming ferry]

okay how about it shouldn't exist

[pure jetty]

why

[gleaming ferry]

because its basically made up of occupied territories

that dont belong to them

and they are even backed up my the stupid us military

[pure jetty]

this can be said about any modern country :DD

lol "the stupid us military"

[gleaming ferry]

not really

[gleaming ferry]

it happened less than 70 years ago

my grandpa is older than israel

[loud flax]

so any country established less than 70 years ago shouldn't exist

[pure jetty]

also where do you want the jewish people to go

[gleaming ferry]

its written in their book that they dont have any main country

[pure jetty]

they are the most prosecuted group in history, and they don't get along with their neighbors well

it's probably a good idea they have a safe space

[gleaming ferry]

its like they are wanderers or smth

[pure jetty]

just in case something happens again

[gleaming ferry]

bro its written in their holy book

[pure jetty]

what the fuck is your point

[gleaming ferry]

this isn't about jew

[pure jetty]

it doesn't have to be a "main country", it can still be the one they go too in times of conflict

[gleaming ferry]

israel is literally ethnic cleansing

[pure jetty]

lmfao