#politics

1 messages · Page 65 of 1

ashen peak
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LOL

mystic ermine
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Keeps the politics out of the general channel, we're a community discord as much as a mc server software one

fluid sonnet
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Meant to respond to this earlier. Got distracted. Anyways, this should be true, but in practice is rarely true. There’s usually only management that gets the good pay for being “experts” whilst the actual hard workers that do the physical aspects of their job tend to suffer. In this case, based on the average for those who do the same job, those employees were underpaid.

I made sure no one that worked for me was underpaid. They went to school for that type of work, so it demanded that type of pay. No one should be getting pay that isn’t equivalent to their schooling, but that’s often not the case.

topaz path
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False, Teddy good

near glen
lament bobcat
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Tucker Carlson is just a man full of racist dog whistles

woven yoke
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@_@

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that boris johnson ay

lament bobcat
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i just wanted to say once a military aircraft accidentally dropped a nuclear bomb on a u.s. city and somehow didn't detonate

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it's still there in the ground

mystic pulsar
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That’s terrifying

lament bobcat
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

1961 Goldsboro B-52 crash

The 1961 Goldsboro B-52 crash was an accident that occurred near Goldsboro, North Carolina, on 23 January 1961. A Boeing B-52 Stratofortress carrying two 3–4-megaton Mark 39 nuclear bombs broke up in mid-air, dropping its nuclear payload in the process. The pilot in command, Walter Scott Tulloch, ordered the crew to eject at 9,000 feet (2,700 m)...

mystic pulsar
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Less that it happened and more that it just got left there

lament bobcat
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Goldsboro, North Carolina

mystic pulsar
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I’m honestly surprised America hasn’t blown itself up five times over

woven yoke
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Tru

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Over 7 warheads missing @_@

foggy fern
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But McDonalds would have to jack up their prices to pay $15

pure jetty
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isn't that the place bill gates eats at

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and nobody sane makes the argument that big companies would need to increase their prices

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its literally the opposite

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bigger companies can absorb that cost better than small business

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economics of a minimum wage will depend on location primarily

foggy fern
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Their website doesn't even have a list of locations or say what city they're in

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That's how small/local they are

pure jetty
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depends on area

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anecdotal evidence isn't really impressive :/

foggy fern
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Well I left my spare universe in my other pants so we can't do a test run

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All we have are projections and anecdotal evidence

pure jetty
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we were talking about this the other day in here, there is projections on this stuff

foggy fern
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Why would location matter when comparing their prices to their pay/benefits?

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If anything being in the Seattle area would make things worse for them and make that harder to pull off

pure jetty
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is seattle not a big tourist location?

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and like one of the biggest cities in the US

foggy fern
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Most of the people in the US live in one of the biggest cities in the US, that's how it works

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Ok, so technically you could have some weird agrarian society where that isn't true but you know what I mean 😛

pure jetty
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yeah i got ya

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idk I still think social services are a much better use of political capital than a clear cut federal minimum wage change

foggy fern
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Depending on what/how you're measuring 60-80% of the US population lives in cities like that

pure jetty
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what i think could be cool is a congress "suggested" minimum wage thats tied to aid (be it highway or otherwise)

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and that's something actually passable by the dems since its tax policy

foggy fern
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Pretty sure the Supreme Court ruled they can't tie federal aid to unrelated things

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It was one of the ACA lawsuits

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They could do it with drinking age and speed limits because those apply to driving but you couldn't just add random things on there

pure jetty
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did the ACA shit get decided by the supreme court yet

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thought that was pending

foggy fern
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I don't think Texas, et al has been heard yet?

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Don't know if I wrote that the right way either 😛

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Apparently at the Supreme Court the case is called California v Texas

pure jetty
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winner gets LA!

foggy fern
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I don't get why this is a big legal fight to begin with

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Texas says because the "tax" for the mandate is now zero it's unenforceable so the entire law should be wiped out

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Congress seems to have made their intentions clear on the rest of the law by not getting rid of it when they made that tax change

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This isn't the first case where the Supreme Court has decided even if Congress didn't make it explicit they could split a law up and only drop part of it

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Just last term, the issue of severability came before the court on two occasions: in Seila Law v. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and Barr v. American Association of Political Consultants. In both cases, Thomas and Gorsuch questioned the “propriety of modern severability doctrine.” And in both cases — with the fate of the ACA looming on the horizon — the other seven justices affirmed the court’s “settled” severability doctrine, applying the “strong presumption” of severability to excise the unconstitutional provision of two separate laws while leaving the remainder intact. As Chief Justice John Roberts put it in his opinion for the court in Seila Law, “unless there is strong evidence that Congress intended otherwise,” the doctrine operates as “a scalpel rather than a bulldozer.”

shut vine
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Also a note that McDonalds is not a good comparison to owned and operated businesses, most of the fast food franchises are not. The franchisee pays a membership, and is railroaded into buying only from approved suppliers. They're also price locked. Hence why I don't think buying a franchise especially in this area is a good business decision. Forcing them to pay more in wages would have completely different effects to forcing an owned and operated business.

dusky raft
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I still dont understand the mandate, considering when someone goes in without insurance, said person gets fucked by the system in event of an emergency.

mystic pulsar
mystic pulsar
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It goes beyond that

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We would also need to wipe the slate clean for 90% of the house and senate

dusky raft
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I mean yes, however the mandate can be cheaper to take the hit than getting insurance.

mystic pulsar
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And honestly, before any of that, there needs to be a massive increase in education of the public on issues of policy.

mystic pulsar
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If the cost differential is a couple hundred, why not just get the health coverage?

dusky raft
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But I don't think you should be mandated or fined to not buy into a product

mystic pulsar
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For the time it was implemented, it was the best we were getting.

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If you’ve got the votes for that, you’ve got the votes for universal healthcare, so just stop pussy footing around and go big. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

dusky raft
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Also hospitals shouldn't charge out stupid amounts of cash and for fuck sake we live in the digital age, that God damn bill should have been tabulated right as it hits the insurance company network

mystic pulsar
dusky raft
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Most of the good universal healthcare systems are moreso just connectors than complete national overhead

mystic pulsar
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As a Canadian, I never had a problem with health care until I moved to the Us

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Then I avoided it like the plague

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I think healthcare is one of the places you’re not going to find that as much

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People go to different countries all the time for specialists or experimental treatment. Not just those with privatized healthcare

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I’ve never really heard of a Canadian having an issue with the healthcare.

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I’ve had more issues here then there

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There, I break an ankle and go to whatever hospital is closest, get things done and over with.

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Here, I need to make sure if this is an emergency, find the “right hospital”, and then get the same treatment

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Rules which can be rolled back with the flip of a switch? Or do you mean law, which is likely to never pass?

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Honestly, the reset button just needs to be pressed, and hard. Lol

bleak mortar
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joe biden

near glen
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Can we not?

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Is that all you joined for?

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This channel is dedicated to actual discussions

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If you do want to engaging in such discussions, please do

shut vine
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I don't know if you can really solve America's problems with a change in government system, because the underlying issue is far more complex than that. People freely believe their "side" is the correct side, tribal ties and confirmation bias, etc. To me you've had politicians doing pretty much the same things for quite a while, and just making it sound different.

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That being said, many nations are like that.

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That's pretty much what I meant.

urban vector
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this is embarrassing

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no, i was talking about you

foggy fern
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oof

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I suppose he had a reason for it but Biden seems to have decided not to follow the whole "unified front to the world" bit where when overseas you don't talk domestic politics

fluid sonnet
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I’m not responding to what I was tagged in, thanks.

foggy fern
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I think they only didn't get banned because they left, best to just pretend it never happened

pure jetty
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jesus christ

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hf the fact that all you have is images from instagram to explain your positions

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should tell you something

near glen
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Oh I didn't even bother to talk to them

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It's just shows that some ppl are really detached

fluid sonnet
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I’m all for debating politics or whatever, but that was quite depressing.

pure jetty
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so question for you

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I'm just curious

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who did you support in either president race or primaries

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who would you support in that case

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man

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I suggest learn more about politics in that case

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You will NOT get your student debt forgiveness
his policy was never to remove it all
You will NOT get your minimum wage increased
it's electorally unpopular
You WILL pay 5 times more for basic medication like insulin
he is for Medicare reform and this isn't even something tried to reform yet
You will NOT get a 2k stimulus
this was never a policy position made by any dem worth their weight
You WILL embrace the upcomming middle east wars
learn foreign policy
Children WILL still be locked into the cages that i built 8 years ago
if you think this would be ANY BETTER UNDER FUCKING TRUMP you have NO IDEA what you're talking about
You WILL get into your wage cage and pay off your debts
omega cringe

fluid sonnet
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Yes, me, wanting a “safe space”.

No, actually, I have no time to respond, since any meaningful conversation will be completely disregarded.

pure jetty
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the $2000 was $1600 + $400 in jan/feburary

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you're just braindead

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I'm sorry you're terminally online

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i hope they find a cure

molten forge
torn wadi
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Biden wars:

Kosovo

fluid sonnet
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I’m old enough to have lived through 11 different presidents. I may not agree with the positions held here, but I certainly do not use memes or ridiculously inaccurate sources to field my views.

torn wadi
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That should go to Trump by brother.

glossy sandal
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No way this guy isnt trolling

foggy fern
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Biden isn't perfect so lets toss a grenade in

pure jetty
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your foreign policy stance is war = bad

foggy fern
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Also you're "I'm not American" is so obviously fake

glossy sandal
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A war monger wat

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The us is in the same wars it's been in for the past decade

foggy fern
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Two decades

glossy sandal
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Saying trump hasnt dealt with war is tinfoil

torn wadi
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Serbia - Kosovo - Israel.
USA - China

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Any more needed?

glossy sandal
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Biden started those

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How?

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Same wars

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Same shit politics

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Same hidden motives

fluid sonnet
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War is no longer just a physical space between people. Troops don’t have to be deployed to be at war. If you want to be a bit more specific on your definition of war, for clarity sake, please do.

torn wadi
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I don't know. Maybe we should ask him.

65696223.png
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Vučič fucking dead inside.

pure jetty
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man

glossy sandal
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Wait we cant ask him we are trying to stifle his freedom of speech

torn wadi
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From the prospective of Kosovo and Serbia that is a war on their religion.

glossy sandal
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When was this account made

torn wadi
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You didn't read what they had to sign.

pure jetty
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krusic you can't be specific

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you have to speak in broad terms

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its all they understand

glossy sandal
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Idk what kind of brain mush your media hypnotized you into thinking but imagine any us president that wasnt a war monger lul thinking trump is pure

fluid sonnet
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This is ignorance on mass scales, my man.

torn wadi
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Depends on your definition of war.

fluid sonnet
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^ What he said

glossy sandal
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Imagine thinking declaring a war is different from still actively fighting in the war absolves you of being accountable for the war

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bUt hE DiDNt StARt iT

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Didnt mean he didnt bomb the shit out of countries still

torn wadi
glossy sandal
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Who strawman now

torn wadi
foggy fern
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I wonder if this is one of those 30% who think Trump is going to be reinstated in August

pure jetty
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lmfao

foggy fern
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I mean, you're on his dick pretty hard so I wouldn't be surprised

pure jetty
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mega debatebro missusing strawman

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nice

torn wadi
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And I named two and you ignored both. kekwhyper

foggy fern
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technically the US hasn't been in a war since the 50s

glossy sandal
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The pictures dont lie

foggy fern
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So, you know, it depends on your definition

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Biden started zero

glossy sandal
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Strawman defending his argument after it was proven false

foggy fern
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Biden wasn't in office 70 years ago

glossy sandal
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Grasp at that started

foggy fern
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The US hasn't been at war since the Korean War 😛

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So if you're going to expand your definition it seems logical to expand it to cover any overseas military action

glossy sandal
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Post a facebook picture again so we can understand what straw ur grasping at

foggy fern
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Biden didn't vote in favor of any wars because the US hasn't declared war in 70 years

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Also of course Trump hasn't voted for any military actions, dude was never in Congress

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Doesn't mean he didn't do them anyway

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The US hasn't voted to start a war in 70 years

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I guess you aren't American after all, this is basic civics

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Then again being American doesn't mean you'd know that, sadly...

fluid sonnet
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It’s undeclared

foggy fern
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You've basically set up a definition that makes it impossible for Trump to have done anything wrong

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Thus my statement about being on his dick

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How could Trump have possibly voted for any of those? The President doesn't vote for things and Trump was never anything else

pure jetty
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so lets say we take your definition, why didn't trump stop any of these "wars"

glossy sandal
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There is no vote

foggy fern
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I'll never defend our actions in Iraq, the rest are... fuzzy

glossy sandal
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Bruh no one is defending the war

foggy fern
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I was out there protesting that shit in 2004, when you were learning to read

glossy sandal
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You got some extremely jaded view bro

fluid sonnet
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And somehow you are morally superior?

foggy fern
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Saying Biden is better than Trump doesn't say we support those things

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That's childish thinking

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I was arguing about your definitions

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You are no longer interesting to talk to, this is going in circles

pure jetty
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why didn't trump stop any of these "wars"

glossy sandal
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We out here arguing trump is also a war monger and this dude trying to flip the conversation into us saying we wanted war LOL

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That were murderes

plush crypt
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?kick @shrewd canopy Come back with some manners and good faith if you wish to retain access to this channel.

feral hearthBOT
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:raised_hands: Kicked hf#3143 (Come back with some manners and good faith if you wish to retain access to this channel.) [1 total infraction] -- Proximyst#6900.

fluid sonnet
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Ah

glossy sandal
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Everytime someone would counter his argument he started shifting it to something else and would circle back later

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Literally trying to manipulate the convo lmao

foggy fern
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On a somewhat related note, talking about the Kosovo War in here always feels awkward

fluid sonnet
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But only to compliment his side of whatever his argument was to begin with.

glossy sandal
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Went from talking about trump vs. Biden wars and trump not being a warmonger cuz he didnt "vote" or "start" to calling us murdering sympathizers

fluid sonnet
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I don’t support either of them, but a lot of what he said about both was just incredibly misleading or misinformation.

foggy fern
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He was trying for affective override, I think

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Or he was suffering from it

glossy sandal
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They gotta wait the 10 minutes before they start spewing again dont they

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The conversation started with whether trump started or voted for wars

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Then you shifted towards this sentiment now after you were argued with

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And are now calling us war sympathizers

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No wars are bad killing people is bad

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Lock the convo into your narrative

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Feels like you disagree

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Whst comparison

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Did you forget already

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The comparison

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Trump war monger bad

foggy fern
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I think the conversation started with white pride or something but this is all one big blur of awful takes so maybe?

glossy sandal
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The conversation when I joined was you trying to say trump wasnt a war monger

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No it was further back

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One of the other tumblr images

foggy fern
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Trump "bombed the shit out of" ISIS and helped the Saudis do the same to Yemen so this is a weird take

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Biden has been around longer so he has been involved with more of this but by your definition it's impossible for Trump to have done anything wrong

glossy sandal
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No man this guy is 100% a troll LMAO

foggy fern
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I disagree with your point so I don't see how that'll happen

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You're just setting up definitions to let you say Trump is better

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And trying to get us to go along with it

fluid sonnet
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HF what is your goal here? What’s your point?

glossy sandal
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I hope to read a spigot post one day about how papermc fosters the new resistance and war mongering america

foggy fern
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Turns out the answer is "it's complicated"

glossy sandal
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What was the first statement

foggy fern
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I don't think I defended his decisions...

glossy sandal
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Yes

fluid sonnet
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Yes

glossy sandal
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Yes

foggy fern
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Whether any of those are good or bad is a complicated thing

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In retrospect Vietnam was pretty obviously bad, Iraq is obviously bad from the start, the rest are fuzzy or I disagree

fluid sonnet
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This is me not agreeing with either of them

glossy sandal
fluid sonnet
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The others explained those other points. I was merely agreeing with them.

glossy sandal
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But keep pushing ur narrative that we want to kill people

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Not being american I also assume your being fed some really tasty horseshit

foggy fern
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Kosovo and Afghanistan I think we made the right call on (although how Afghanistan ended up is not great), Syria we only got involved in because all the Baathists were pushed out of Iraq by Bush and started ISIS, Libya was supposed to be us enforcing a ceasefire but was probably a bad call

fluid sonnet
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I don’t believe he’s not American. This is exactly what an American would say

glossy sandal
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Putting words in my mouth

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Nice bro

opal moat
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This channel was a mistake.

foggy fern
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He talks like someone who watches OANN and/or Newsmax all day but also has a poor grasp of US civics and randomly flavors words with extra 'u's

fluid sonnet
glossy sandal
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I think not banning this troll instead of kicking was a mistake

fluid sonnet
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Sorry for the tag, I forget replying does that.

glossy sandal
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They have some permanent bias already and are just looking to pick fights with people by spewing 30 different takes

plush crypt
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Sorry, what exactly is the discussion/argument about? What is the goal of it, why is it here?

foggy fern
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ISIS came from the Baathists from Iraq, this is a pretty well known thing outside of conspiracy theory circles

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Some weapons provided to Syrian forces during their civil war might have ended up going to them but we tried to prevent that and never knowingly gave them anything

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Their structure, training, etc though all came from Iraqi military vets

fluid sonnet
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Who here is defending Biden?

glossy sandal
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Bruh the argument started by you posting a picture saying trump didnt deal in wars which is literally false

foggy fern
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Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

glossy sandal
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Then you went into this tangent that were defending war

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When literally atleast what I was saying is trump is ALSO a war monger

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Never defended biden

fluid sonnet
plush crypt
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I still don't quite see the point. I am fairly certain nobody here would support war for war's sake. If Biden did, in my lack of looking up any sources at all, vote to enter war with another entity, that is indisputable and everyone knows as much. Why is this discussed at all?

foggy fern
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The Syrian civil war allowed them to act more openly, this is true

glossy sandal
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He literally did the same thing every president has done in the past 2 decades

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Bomb countries and meddle in foreign affairs

fluid sonnet
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Not disputing that

opal moat
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Every person in power is doing the same things to stay in power, that's not really news, and this discussion is tiring and honestly I'd suggest all of you to stop and calm down

foggy fern
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Did Obama's actions allow them to take over the country and be a problem? Probably. Did we know that was going to happen ahead of time? No. Without knowing that, was supporting the civil war against Assad a good idea? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

opal moat
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Why is American politics always so exhausting

urban vector
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it's gonna blow hf's mind when they figure out that more than one person can be bad

glossy sandal
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Because everyone thinks they're right

foggy fern
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Because we aren't 5 or Libertarians so understand that things aren't so black and white

plush crypt
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Yes, I am certain Americans who voted for Biden would much rather be at war with Afghanistan than be under Trump for whichever reason is most important to them. You don't need to support war to disagree too intensely with the opposing politician to vote for the one who supported several wars.

foggy fern
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I won't say that because I disagree

urban vector
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biden is a war monger and all the wars he voted for were bad

glossy sandal
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Post link to where anyone said biden wasnt a war monger

foggy fern
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I just said that 😛

glossy sandal
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Amaranth is a war monger

opal moat
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Why do people join this discord to discuss politics

glossy sandal
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And a hot tubber

opal moat
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Rubber Duck?

foggy fern
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I don't know his reasoning for voting for any of that (and a lot of it only got voted for after the fact, President did something and Congress was like "whelp, better provide funding for that")

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But some of those either made sense to do or were complicated enough you can't say for sure until after the fact

urban vector
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who is this "you" you keep referring to

opal moat
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It's easier to vote for someone that wages war far away than for someone that makes your life right now miserable

urban vector
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i havent seen anyone say the things you're saying

fluid sonnet
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She’s right. I’m too old for this.

foggy fern
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I was playing with definitions as a way to point out your definitions made it impossible for Trump to have done anything wrong

opal moat
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Could this finally stop now

glossy sandal
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Amaranth is our elective representative for all americans on foreign policy

glossy sandal
foggy fern
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Eww, he called me a liberal

glossy sandal
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Yeah according to that political alignment test I'm a facist

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So ha jokes on you

opal moat
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None

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Not until everyone else does

glossy sandal
foggy fern
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Honestly I'm surprised they weren't booted after this one

opal moat
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If you don't spread conspiracy theories

urban vector
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always a shit fest
you're talking to the wrong people if it's a shit fest

foggy fern
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Oh look they're going for the conspiracy theories

glossy sandal
opal moat
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Fuck Notch

foggy fern
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If notch ever tried to join here he'd be banned immediately

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Well, unless he just didn't say anything 😛

opal moat
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Transphobic antisemitic Nazis are not welcome here

glossy sandal
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I guess to get away with trolling you just have to troll in the right channel

fluid sonnet
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What did I miss on Notch? I’m not hip with all that

opal moat
fluid sonnet
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Oh nvm

foggy fern
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This guy is so American it hurts

glossy sandal
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Spoon fed tinfoil for breakfast

fluid sonnet
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Well, You’re the most American non-American I’ve ever seen

foggy fern
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If you weren't from the US you'd call it the BioNTech vaccine and know Trump had nothing to do with it

opal moat
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Biontech is a pretty cool company

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Everyone here calls it Biontech, no one says pfizer

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No

foggy fern
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Getting to the point of Emergency Use Authorization in the US for the vaccine you might be able to give him some credit for but other countries did that before the US so we weren't very warp speed there 😛

opal moat
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Never heard someone in Germany call it Pfizer

foggy fern
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The companies involved didn't get any government funding or anything for this vaccine though

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You could argue mRNA tech got government funding since I think that came from university researchers in the 90s but yeah

plush crypt
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Over here in Sweden, it's always written Pfizer/BioNTech or simply Pfizer ^^

urban vector
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Yeah in the UK it's Pfizer-BioNTech

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they weren't bad at ordering, they were bad at distributing

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and also a lot of countries had problems with uptake

opal moat
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The media writes Biontech pfizer but when people talk about it they say Biontech usually. The third article even does that

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Because the EU is not a country

urban vector
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bc they suck at a lot of things? idk what you want me to say here

opal moat
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It's like asking why the Commonwealth is so bad at distribution

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Yes exactly, those where the exact thoughts i had while writing that sentence /s

glossy sandal
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Wtf.. do you have like a template you follow when you ask questions during discussions

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Trolling with structure

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I dig it

daring locust
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different countries have different postal systems how's that hard

opal moat
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Oh fuck off

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If you're only here to annoy people then leave

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This is not a discord to discuss politics and this channel only exists to keep the stuff out of the other channels

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!ban @shrewd canopy Annoying politics troll

feral hearthBOT
#

:raised_hands: Banned hf#3143 (Annoying politics troll) [2 total infractions] -- aurora#4484.

glossy sandal
daring locust
#

this entire debacle was so funny to read ngl

glossy sandal
#

Only took 2 hours

urban vector
opal moat
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Inb4 i got banned for talking about my opinions muuu free speech

glossy sandal
#

I feel like that's all that was

urban vector
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the answer being, they aren't really responsible and it's considerably more complex

glossy sandal
#

Was some weird bigger agenda to flame papermc

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Itll be on spigotmc by tomorrow

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Or yatopia PEPW

foggy fern
#

The answer to all of their questions was "it's complicated"

near glen
#

I refuse to call it phizer

foggy fern
#

They were boiling complex topics down to strawmen and buzzwords and refusing to accept anything but a yes/no answer

opal moat
#

don't worry, I can also ban people on Yatopia

daring locust
#

wow

#

aurora kitty with claws

opal moat
#

I have the power of god and anime on my side

daring locust
#

heeeelll yea

fluid sonnet
#

Being 55, it’s incredibly difficult to not get into political arguments with younger folks. Especially, in this sort of situation. I’m more patient than I used to be, though

#

What a morning, though

daring locust
#

dude spouted bullshit without actually listening

#

that's basically rule 1

#

listen to the other side

fluid sonnet
#

I see it a lot. Common in the US. Wish I knew exactly why. I have ideas, of course

glossy sandal
#

There was no debate it was them coming in with a preset opinion on all the things they wanted to talk about and looking to pick fights, like that type of person saves a text document on their desktop with links to all their arguments

daring locust
#

lmao

#

i just have a folder of funny screenshots from this discord

#

anyway i'll be gone from here until the next idiot comes in here to go off on a tangent with all edge and no point 👀

fluid sonnet
#

I kind of asked earlier and apologies for not knowing, what did Notch do that’s warranting a ban if the guy joined? Is it that bad?

urban vector
#

decent overview

daring locust
#

Basically: he said some degenerate stuff

fluid sonnet
#

Ah okay, so just not thinking about anything he said, and not being level headed really

urban vector
#

well, it's clear a lot of what he said has had thought into it (due to it being said multiple times, with confirmations, etc)

lament bobcat
#

The biggest reason GOP members vote down Jan 6 investigation is they were probably complicit themselves

gaunt willow
#

He still has conflict with the Yogscast as well, even though that was in 2011

fluid sonnet
#

Alright. Thanks for the answers. I should clarify, not well thought out, then.

gaunt willow
#

It sucks, social media is dividing people more thanks to algorithms. People are even less tolerant to the other side

near glen
#

There was a good vid a watched about notch recently that I agreed with

daring locust
foggy fern
#

No, they're designed to increase engagement

#

Not give them content they like

daring locust
#

depends on the platform but yes, that as well

foggy fern
#

Facebook seems to be designed to create flamewars specifically because that keeps you there

lament bobcat
#

i go on facebook and read the comment sections of local news articles

#

i get shocked when i read the stupidity written there, and the amount of people voting up

foggy fern
#

In general flamewars end up on the top of your feed or in the trending section due to all the interactions though so even if they meant them to show you things you like they fail at that 😛

lament bobcat
#

every time there is an article about covid the comment section is bombarded by anti vacciners

#

i dont know where the hell they all come from. do they exist in real life too?

#

are they real people? everyone i meet in real life are taking it seriously

daring locust
#

yes, mostly on facebook/twitter

lament bobcat
#

i hope they're just a very loud minority

daring locust
#

yep

lament bobcat
#

It's a dangerous precedent if you let a small number of loud people on the internet dictate how we should live our lives

foggy fern
#

My mom's side of the family seems to be pretty firmly anti-vax

#

Or at least against this one

daring locust
#

most antivaxxers here just get clowned/laughed at

lament bobcat
#

the argument is always "only 0.01% of people under 60 die from covid, and most of them had existing conditions" yeah but WHAT ABOUT THEM

#

are we supposed to not give a shit about 60+ people?

foggy fern
#

My mom is just weird about it, her sisters are all in on the 5g bill gates stuff, her brothers I'm not sure on reasons but don't want it, my grandma says she believes the 5g stuff but got it anyway, my grandpa signed up as soon as he could and was happy to get it

lament bobcat
#

also if you die with covid then you die from covid

daring locust
#

it's kinda sad how easy it is to get spoonfed conspiracy theories nowadays

foggy fern
#

One aunt had a trip to Finland cancelled because of covid last year and hopes to go instead next year so will probably get it then

lament bobcat
#

If you already have cancer or another illness, and you've so far managed to survive fine, then Covid comes and you die. It was Covid that killed you

foggy fern
#

She says she doesn't want it and hopes they don't require it but she'll get it if she doesn't have a choice, she wants that trip really bad

lament bobcat
#

You can't just blame it on the other thing and say it wasn't covid related

#

anything that covid has contributed to being the cause of death, makes it a covid death

foggy fern
#

Shh, that's too complicated

daring locust
#

that is partially true

foggy fern
#

Only one thing kills you, you can't die from multiple causes

#

Technically true but not useful

lament bobcat
#

if you have cancer and you're still alive, then covid comes and you die, you died from covid

daring locust
#

it's like getting a kill assist in a video game

foggy fern
#

If you have cancer and are still alive then get covid and die it doesn't mean covid was definitely a cause, it can be hard to say sometimes

lament bobcat
#

yeah but you should definitely avoid covid

foggy fern
#

In general though if you're fighting off one disease and then another weakens you and you die you can blame both for it

daring locust
#

if you have a respiratory condition, yes

lament bobcat
#

and the fact that some people are saying it "wasn't a covid death" is ridiculous

#

exactly, you blame both

foggy fern
#

Even if you got covid and then recovered the damage/weakness from it could still be the reason why something else managed to kill you off

#

So yeah, it's complicated

lament bobcat
#

i just want pandemic to be over so i can go outside and enjoy the sweet 5g internet

daring locust
#

you dont need to go outside for that though

keen swift
#

Like its so frustrating the people who spread fake news without even doing their research

lament bobcat
#

i'll stand directly beneath the cell tower

daring locust
#

just get a wifi router that supports it kekw

restive seal
#

Many people cannot process scary concepts like death and such complicated things as "there can be multiple factors in a death" and find the laziest answer that makes them happy. That is, the first answer that they find that meets their desired goal of "everything is fine"

daring locust
#

back to memento mori anyone?

lament bobcat
#

shit nintendo direct is coming

#

1 hour and 23 minutes

edgy anchor
#

I am honestly surprised to see a politics channel in this server lol

loud flax
#

@near glen Hmmmm, good video. It makes me wonder about Notch's tweets that appear racist. I feel like if you put them in context with all his other weird tweets then it just looks like him being a simple jokester who isn't really serious about what he says

#

which seems to be what most of his tweets nowadays are

near glen
#

yeep

loud flax
#

so that's how I view these tweets of his, a man just having fun and not at all serious about what he says

#

poor guy though, I think his experience at Mojang and at center stage from the community have kinda broke him

urban vector
#

posting hateful content aimed against minority groups with the sole purpose of spreading and inciting hate? we must have different definitions of fun

loud flax
#

are you putting those tweets as exclusive content from him? or putting them in context to his other tweets?

urban vector
#

when someone sees a tweet, do you think that they sit down and decide to trawl through the other tweets from said account in order to create a general understanding of the vibe and personality of the creator such that they can obtain a contextual understanding of the tweets? obviously not - so if he didn't mean them then he shouldn't have posted them

#

and besides, doesn't make them any less bigoted/transphobic/etc

loud flax
#

i mean that's exactly how atheists get the wrong impression of God

#

so if you think that is completely ok then you're missing the point

urban vector
#

what's god's twitter?

loud flax
#

i don't think that exists

#

i'm sorry if you feel that those tweets are yet more content that are offensive

urban vector
#

I don't feel that, they pretty objectively are offensive - they were written to create offense regardless of the context or what the weather was like when they were posted

loud flax
#

so regardless of the intention of the author

urban vector
#

well in real life we can't know the intention of a piece of media so we have to take educated guesses

#

do you think that if notch was not intending to be, using one of his tweets as an example, transphobic that he would have realised that his post was being misinterpreted and attempted to remedy this misunderstanding?

loud flax
#

hard to say; I think his general frustration with interacting with people may hinder those thoughts of keeping it friendly towards others but I think he generally does not mean any ill will towards others

pure jetty
#

I think it's clear he doesn't have good positions on trans and (maybe) race issues

#

but I don't think he's bigoted in general

#

so it appears if the right person talked to him, he could be talked the other way

stoic arrow
#

hi! im liberal

loud flax
#

if a trans person wants to enter the bathroom of their gender identity and not biological sex, and that person is only identifying as trans due to a traumatic experience early on in their life (thus, their identity is a way to cope), then I have an obvious problem with that, and wondering what you guys think of that too

weary lake
#

Does it matter which bathroom someone takes?

stoic arrow
restive seal
#

Nope!

loud flax
#

well, why do you think bathrooms are segregated between male and female?

near glen
#

many places just do unisex here

loud flax
#

and i suppose that's fine, but would you want the bathroom to be used by both male and female at the same time? just coming and going at will?

#

i personally would not

restive seal
#

I'm trying to find a charitable way to describe your general statement above, but I keep running into the idea that you're suggesting some trans people aren't validly trans. Can you clarify what you're saying?

near glen
#

why would I care who is with me in the bathroom

#

I would want privacy from any other person, no matter the gender

weary lake
#

I suppose some people might find it uncomfortable using those open standing toilets when others also are there, but for closed stalls I don't see the issue.

loud flax
#

yes mbaxter, that's what i'm saying

#

i can provide you with source material if you want

near glen
#

who are you to decide who is "valid" trans or not, wtf

daring locust
#

provide with sources as to why trans people aren't valid

#

okay buddy

loud flax
#

i'm not, i'm merely explaining others have felt that way about their own experiences

urban vector
#

there are more trans/intersex people than there are ginger people - you have almost certainly shared a bathroom with someone who wasn't of the same sex as you before, probably many times

#

so what you're describing literally is just a non-issue

candid yacht
#

Ginger people are a minority confirmed??? GLM???

loud flax
#

lol

#

@near glen i don't decide that, of course not

After what he described as a "misdiagnosis"[6] of gender dysphoria, Walt Heyer underwent gender reassignment surgery and lived for eight years as a woman named Laura Jensen,[7] before regretting and reversing his sex change.

daring locust
#

source: someone who regretted their decision

urban vector
#

yes, people regret and decide to de-transition - this is a thing that happens

daring locust
#

i'd classify this as anecdotal evidence

loud flax
#

so someone's story isn't evidence to you?

urban vector
#

they just said it was evidence

#

but anecdotal evidence

loud flax
#

i mean, his story was that his grandma wanted a girl so much and gave him a dress early on in his life and that moment scarred him later on in his life

#

so yes

urban vector
#

that is terrible

#

i don't know how that relates to your opinion/line of questioning

loud flax
#

whether someone is valid (can be determined scientifically) as falling under the LGBT spectrum

daring locust
#

and this is exactly why trans healthcare sucks ^

loud flax
#

yeah, i wish it was simple but it's not

urban vector
#

yeah exactly, better investment into trans healthcare would not only help more trans people but also help people like your example who were misdiagnosed

loud flax
#

what is your view of giving children the right to take HRT?

#

do you think they know who they are at that age?

urban vector
#

well im not a doctor, but if the science says it's okay then i would agree with that - however, if i recall correctly no children are given HRT - or if they are, it's not with the recommendation of any scientific organisation

daring locust
#

i feel like young children (up to 12) are still experimenting. the real "finding who you are" part comes around puberty/early adulthood

dusky raft
#

The problem I see is that health insurance companies and pharma would love to have people on their products and drugs for life, similar to insulin.

daring locust
#

should clarify that HRT is a life long process

#

so it's already working

#

:p

faint radish
#

Oh PETA, never change

pure jetty
#

peta

faint radish
#

Water bears… those are microscopic creatures.

#

I think PETA should come out and defend viruses

pure jetty
#

lmfao

faint radish
#

PETA needs to come out as anti vaccines cause they are basically genocide for living things

daring locust
#

i still wonder how people are still able to take PETA seriously

urban vector
#

PETA have honestly single-handedly done more damage to veganism/animal-rights activism than any poacher/hunter/omnivore group/organisation/individual

faint radish
#

Yeah that’s probably true

#

The whole “can’t say kill two birds with one stone” or “bring home the bacon” or whatever thing they did just makes people laugh at you.

#

No ones going out and killing birds with stones when they hear that

daring locust
#

your opinion isn't valid either

#

:)

near glen
#

!ban @shy gulch you aren't valid

feral hearthBOT
#

:raised_hands: Banned theSomeoneMan#4310 (you aren't valid) [1 total infraction] -- MiniDigger#3086.

daring locust
#

gg

#

thinking the same thing 👀

near glen
#

they created an account just to say that

#

so fuck them

daring locust
#

fair enough

loud flax
daring locust
#

?

shut vine
mystic ermine
#

Not to mention the time they took a dog off the porch when it wouldn't come to them and put it down the same day

#

They're a toxic af organisation which would sooner murder all animals than live along side people or be on farms and such

#

animals like dogs have lived along side humans for fucking centuries

#

11k years

loud flax
mystic ermine
brisk cradle
#

fucking timed bathroom breaks

#

unbelievable

#

no wonder why the workers have been trying to unionize

#

I'm sure a lot of people will accept waiting an extra day and pay a little more in shipping costs if the workers weren't exploited like hell

urban vector
#

i wonder how much they must be spending on recruitment and onboarding

dusky raft
#

@brisk cradle do not forget the exploitative as hell practices on sellers. Sure, its easy to sell on amazon and they can store your stuff, but there were some reports about sellers not able to sell at a lower price directly compared to amazon

foggy fern
dusky raft
#

I actually think thats not a bad law, ill have to read the full context, but I think decriminalize for possessing drugs is a good step forward. Does it keep in place laws against selling it?

#

yeah, this is actually not bad, and would be nice to after having inmates leave the prison system, move the funds over to promoting recovery and rehab

foggy fern
#

It's a pretty thorough bill, deals with all the people who have been busted in the past

#

But it'll probably never even get through the House

foggy fern
#

Sliding backwards

tepid jasper
#

Oof

cloud flicker
#

Also be aware, that is mostly a non-skill job, anyone can do it without any knowledge.

#

Thats why lot of people join and quit

urban vector
#

plenty of "non-skill" jobs do not have a turnaround this dramatic

keen swift
foggy fern
#

The bill outlaws LGBT people from featuring in educational material or TV shows for the under-18s. It means that films featuring gay character or seen as promoting homosexuality could only be shown at night with an 18-plus certificate.

Movies that could be affected include Bridget Jones's Diary, the Harry Potter films and Billy Elliot, broadcaster RTL Klub Hungary said.
near glen
#

EU parliment is sueing EU commission over not acting on Hungary I think

#

So that's fun

#

Poland isn't much better

#

This is what happens when extreme conservative ppl take over and aren't hold accountable

#

Suddenly you loose your freedom of sexual self determination and similar freedoms

weary lake
daring locust
#

or anywhere except J. K. Rowling's twitter

foggy fern
#

I dunno, the last book hints at it pretty strongly

inland pebble
#

I haven't read the article but having a higher rating on movies/shows that focus more on sex doesn't seem to be too unreasonable

#

Just depends on how strong the article is

#

Banning Harry Potter for all minors makes no sense ofc as it doesn't focus on sex

foggy fern
#

You aren't allowed to have LGBT characters in shows for children

#

Doesn't matter how sexual the show is

#

Couldn't even have them go to a school dance or something together

glossy crater
#

Amogus supremacy

brazen sigil
#

That's a big shitshow.

shy gulch
#

idrc what you do with ur life, but we dont have to push this "peer pressure" on children

foggy fern
cloud flicker
urban vector
#

that has nothing to do with what i said

#

plenty of packing jobs don't have such high turnaround

snow compass
near glen
#

Keep dum memes out of here please

restive seal
shut vine
shut vine
#

The Hungary law looks like it's intended as a distraction to me. I'm pretty sure they will cave on it relatively quickly.

shy gulch
urban vector
#

then don't show it to your children

shy gulch
shy gulch
urban vector
#

that's not what i said

#

if you are so bigoted that you don't want your children to view lgbt content, don't show it to them

mystic ermine
#

I think that all of this is stupid

#

I mean, remember when kids where kids?

shy gulch
#

^^^^

mystic ermine
#

Remember growing up being unsure of who you where and what your identity was?

#

Like, I bet we've all fucking been there questioning our identity especially through shit like puberty

shy gulch
#

wdym

mystic ermine
#

or did "girly" shit like having a tea party

#

Or did "manly" shit like fighting and all that crap

#

When we where younger, it was a thing, called puberty

#

Yes, some people ended up having issues deeper and ended up seeking treatment and shit for stuff leading to trans people etc

shy gulch
#

all i remember from my childhood is going to the beach in syria, also i agree

mystic ermine
#

But these days, you say that you're unsure about your identity and you have 200 people tryna throw a label on you

#

and, I get it, I have nothing against trans people, I have nothing against the gays or the theys or whatever

#

So long as you don't harm me, do what you gotta do

#

But, we've gone to the point where a little child wanting to dress up like a princess potentially throws a label on them which falls into medical intervention

urban vector
#

no offense cat it really seems like you don't know what you're talking about

mystic ermine
#

an intervention which people are alarmingly and increasingly saying that was pushed upon them waaaay too fast and now they've done irreversible harm to themselves

shy gulch
mystic ermine
#

and, yea, that issue as a whole is probably more widely represented than it actually is

urban vector
#

i do agree with what i am saying

mystic ermine
#

But I think that as a society we're preventing kids from being kids

shy gulch
#

i meant what cat is saying* its 1 am

mystic ermine
#

I mean, my brains like, semi gone

shy gulch
#

modern society is weird

mystic ermine
#

But, I think that the modern stance of tryna push all this crap on people at a young age is stupid, but, I think those tryna prevent even the sembelence of it is also fucking moronic

urban vector
#

like genuinely i would suggest either actually reading into the topic or just not talking about it so authoritatively like this

shy gulch
#

why does 72 genders exist

urban vector
#

stuff like "it's probably more widely represented than it is" and "we're preventing kids from being kids" and "pushing crap on kids at a young age" is just so easily demonstrably false if you just spend any amount of time reading studies or the opinions/guidance of medical institutions like the who/nhs/ehc/etc

shy gulch
#

im not sure if this video is against the rules (just some guy speaking out against smth) so can someone review it in dms before i post here

daring locust
#

if you're not sure don't post it lmao

shy gulch
#

mm

mystic ermine
#

"more widely represented than it is" - i mean the people who regret going down that avenue

urban vector
#

oh right yes, well in that case then yeah

#

sorry i misinterpreted you there

mystic ermine
#

But, there are people who work in these places who've been raising red flags about this stuff

urban vector
#

are there?

mystic ermine
#

There are people who've regreted it who've stated that there was very little questioning put into place to determine how they actually felt about stuff

shy gulch
#

i do not like pronouns

daring locust
#

yet you use them everyday

urban vector
#

i do not like pronouns

shy gulch
#

correct

urban vector
#

got some bad news for you there bud

shy gulch
#

i do not like them

shy gulch
mystic ermine
#

my brain hurts and my inclination to run around tryna find it, but, there was a documentary recently which interviewed people on both sides of the fence, people who've been there and are happy, people who've been there and regerted it

urban vector
#

you just used two right there libya

shy gulch
#

"i" is not a pronoun? it is something indicating to me

urban vector
#

um

#

i dont know how to say this

#

but i is a pronoun

mystic ermine
#

I mean, the whole pronoun argument is dumb

daring locust
shy gulch
#

why would someone want to be refered to as an item (it)

urban vector
#

bc they want to

#

or bc they feel more comfortable

mystic ermine
#

On one side, I know that if I present male, I know that societly, imma be referred to as a male, and yea, I know some people aren't all too happy with that but unless we learn to make a language which is naturally gendered to all heck to not be as gendered, I can't see there being a massive "fix" on that

#

but, if somebody asks me, can you use she/her, they/them, I mean, am not perfect, but, out of the decency of literal basic respect, I will aim to use them

shy gulch
#

ive never had anyone ask me to use a pronoun to refer to them before (probably since i live in a country that is not a great fan of europe or western countries)

urban vector
#

that's fair

#

i mean just because you've not encountered something doesn't mean it doesn't exist

mystic ermine
#

I think a lot of stuff can really boil down to be "don't be a cunt"

#

You're not god

#

It's not your job to judge anybody

#

if you disagree with their lifestyle choice, does it harm you? no? move the fuck on.

shy gulch
#

i dont have a problem with lgbtq community but if someone just keeps boasting or annoying me about it then ill crack down on them

urban vector
#

ill crack down on them
why does it bother you so much... what do you even mean by this

mystic ermine
#

I just think that there are a lot of concerns especially in ties to education that concerns me

#

I think that banning representation of those people in content is fucking stupid

shy gulch
urban vector
#

okay edgelord lmao

shy gulch
#

?

daring locust
#

you should tell em to stop being annoying about it in a normal and reasonable manner instead

urban vector
#

why you gotta act so dramatic "i condemn thee!"

mystic ermine
#

They should 100% have representation, but, I mean, sex education in general is something that should be left to early teens, but, I think that theres many issues that we gotta address as a society

#

basic respect towards one another is defo something we critically need

urban vector
#

there's a lot of evidence that early sex education is better in terms of sexual literacy, health, understanding, etc

near glen
mystic ermine
#

Fuck you too buddy

shy gulch
daring locust
#

both are correct?

urban vector
#

time and time again it's been shown that not teaching people about things leads to bad stuff

mystic ermine
#

I mean, surname is the correct name

#

last name is just a "people are dumb and don't remember what surnames are"

near glen
#

No it's British, not english

shy gulch
mystic ermine
#

I mean, for me, the issue is tryna draw the lines of where it all needs to stand

#

Your'e not teaching 6 year olds the karma sutra, are you?

shy gulch
urban vector
#

does it?

mystic ermine
#

but, I mean, some awareness of individuality should be taught, and we gotta find a way to teach and understand diversity

urban vector
#

bc that's not what the literature shows libya

shy gulch
#

let me give you a scenario

urban vector
shy gulch
#

if someone is actively promoting terrorism and teaching others about it

mystic ermine
#

I mean, I'm bi, I was raised by a father who was overtly homophobic, and it really fucked me up on actually like, wanting to learn more on stuff

shy gulch
#

they will think that terrorism is good when the brainwashing finishes

#

*thats just a scenario

urban vector
#

how does someone actively promoting terrorism compare to me being taught that gay people exist lmfao

shy gulch
#

ive clearly stated it was a scenario twice, no?

mystic ermine
#

I mean, I was being overly extreme intentionally, I mean, we all don't know what's going on in schools and what's being taught, I'm just concerned with the social implications of "easy answers" for identity as a whole

urban vector
#

you gave me a scenario that really doesn't compare at all...

shy gulch
#

it has the same concept on how teaching people bad things can lead to bad things

urban vector
#

yes and you can see you've made the assumption here that lgbt=bad which just isn't true

shy gulch
#

not correct

urban vector
#

you might think it's bad and whatever, you do you, but you can't make a objective statement like this

shy gulch
#

i havent even talked about lgbt, i am countering your argument that teaching people bad things is good

shy gulch
#

ive already left the lgbtq conversation

urban vector
#

i can't really talk with you libya if you're not gonna bother saying anything interesting

mystic ermine
#

Like, as a member of the community, I went through many years of doubts on my identity, I defo do not feel as If I identity fully as male, but, i get worried, if I was 10, 15, years younger or whatever, how would the modern social scene impact me as a troubled teen where all these answers for my confusion are floating around the place

shy gulch
#

so dont throw me under the bus

woven yoke
#

That Boris ay

daring locust
#

yet raising awareness that people exist is good
taking your terrorism example: if there's a terrorist group, you would want to know they exist, where they operate and what they do, right?

shy gulch
shy gulch
urban vector
#

you're just trolling then - because you've stated clearly that you think lgbt=bad but now you're denying it

#

pretty shit troll

mystic ermine
#

many of our failings as a society is that we fail to teach the stuff we're not comfortable with

shy gulch
#

...

#

Please stop putting words in my mouth

daring locust
#

you're putting words in your own mouth

shy gulch
#

not correct

mystic ermine
#

Theres a lot of history in books all around the world which misrepresent stuff or leave out huge chunks of history in the quest for their goals, it's part of why I think that vocational teaching for many subjects needs to go

#

Wait, not vocational, tested as a whole, I mean

#

Your ability to regurgitate history should not be tested, imho, the time would be better spent towards actually teaching the sins of our past

urban knoll
#

I think people should actually get to know some history though 🙂

#

History is pretty fact-based

#

Although you're right about it always being misrepresented

#

It's always written by the winners 😉

daring locust
#

took the words right out of my mouth

mystic ermine
#

it's the irony of the modern world

#

at our fingertips, we have access to more information than our parents or grandparents ever dreamed of

daring locust
#

that's also what makes history an inaccurate subject in a lot of ways, there's no real objective sources

mystic ermine
#

and yet it feels the further we go, the less we know

shy gulch
daring locust
#

yes, but they will always be biased to some extent

urban knoll
#

I think those are often biased too 🙂

shy gulch
#

depends on the topic

mystic ermine
#

I mean, history is complicated

urban knoll
#

Yes 🙂

mystic ermine
#

You don't know exactly what somebody was thinking and why they did something

urban knoll
#

At least in my country (America), it's become super politicized.
A lot of people want to try and kind of worship it. Other people kind of want to demonize it.
And a lot of it is for political reasons.

#

Some people treat history (or the demonizing of it) as almost like a pseudo-religion.

#

Like you've got some people, who look at our Founding Fathers and almost worship them as gods, and you've got others who obsess over the fact (most of them) owned slaves.

#

Like my little brother did a project on George Washington, and listed off all the good things about him.

#

Them my uncle told him he owned slaves, and he almost cried.

#

But the fact of the matter is they weren't a homogeneous group and they were just really regular people.

#

They did some great things, and they did some pretty bad things too (both with Indians and slaves).

#

But we often like obsess on them and either worship them or demonize them.

#

When they were both good and bad.

daring locust
#

i think that describes the issue pretty well

urban knoll
#

Well thanks ❤️

#

Everything has just got so political 😢

mystic ermine
#

pretty much, yea :/

#

I mean, it's the horrors of tryna paint everything black and white and throw a label on complex issues

#

We can all agree that slave ownership was bad, but, we I think that it's more than fair to say that those people also did their right in the world too, many even putting their lives on the line to fix their own wrongs

#

and it's sad that everything these days is left or right, theres no actual consideration to any of the intricacies of the issues, and that I think is one of the biggest problems with the world

#

we're much sooner to throw rocks at one another over ones political siding rather than actually dig into the real issues at hand and figure out how to address them

daring locust
#

i'd love to dig into the issues

#

but of course, i have my own biases as well

mystic ermine
#

We all do

#

and it's important that we ackowledge that, but, we need to remain comfortable with the idea that your biases and such can change

urban knoll
#

Yeah. And considering other points of view is a really positive thing.

daring locust
#

and that's why political debates always go to shit very fast 🙃

urban knoll
#

Usually you find out that people who disagree with you are actually pretty smart, and have their own points.

#

Well, because people just jump to "no, [blank] is evil"

daring locust
#

yes, it just ends up at one side yelling without listening

remote oracle
#

alright I've got a bit of a rant

daring locust
#

and the listening part is the single most important part

remote oracle
#

greg abbott is literally trying to get us texans killed

urban knoll
#

How?

#

Oh, with the covid thing?

#

Oh wow.

remote oracle
#

Hear me out: if you're using a handgun for self defense, and you don't have training, you are going to kill.

#

If you don't have training how are you supposed to know where to shoot to disable?

urban knoll
#

Yeah, I live in Arizona. Although we're kind of redish-purple, but surprisingly we are one of the most gun-friendly states.

mystic ermine
#

I think that if you have a gun and aren't trained to use it you're a fucking moron and are responsible for any impact that they have

#

But, I mean, how often do you hear of a gun crime happening at a gun sale?

remote oracle
#

I'm not a big fan of guns in general, but guns are so ingrained into American culture that we really can't just ban them at this point.

mystic ermine
#

Shamefully we live in a world where people wanna harm one another, and guns will always exist, even with the most strictest of laws in the UK, people are still getting murdered by guns

remote oracle
#

But like... if you need a license and training to drive a car, which has a risk of killing people, why not a gun?

urban knoll
#

Agreed.

remote oracle
#

Yes a car can kill people, but that isn't its explicit purpose

urban knoll
#

I very strongly believe in the right to self defense, but I think it should be regulated.

mystic ermine
#

Given that some states the police response can be like, 30 minutes on a good day, I think people should have the means to defend themselves and I think that the overly restrictuve rules do very little good to actually reduce crime

remote oracle
#

They just happen to be able to, so we need to train people to not kill other people with their cars.

#

But guns are literally designed to kill or seriously injure.

#

That's it.

#

That's their explicit purpose.

urban knoll
#

Yeah, Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun laws, but they've got a very high murder rate. (of course the gun laws in britian work pretty well)

mystic ermine
#

self defense imho should be accessible

remote oracle
#

Of course

#

But it needs to be regulated

mystic ermine
#

I think that guns are often overly stigmitized themselves as a tool for self defence

#

take the UK

remote oracle
#

Another reason why we need strict gun training and licensing

mystic ermine
#

When we're not shooting one another, we're stabbing one another

urban knoll
#

My high school government teacher explained it pretty well though. It's just the pro-gun people don't want to give an inch, and the anti-gun people don't want to give an inch. So they both go wayyy out of their way to go to insane extremes.

mystic ermine
#

pretty much, yea

remote oracle
#

Even in self defense, one person shouldn't have supreme power over life and death with no consequences

urban knoll
#

Yeah. America has a serious gun problem, but it doesn't have to be that way. Switzerland has a very high gun ownership rate, but actually a below average murder rate.

remote oracle
#

If someone breaks into your home, they in all likelihood have less than pure intent at least

mystic ermine
#

You have a right to live

urban knoll
#

yeah

mystic ermine
#

I'm a firm believe that if somebody impedes on your right to live, they implicate their own

remote oracle
#

But if you can just kill people for a crime they could commit, you get a very bad place

#

Home intrusion by itself isn't a crime worthy of death

mystic ermine
#

I mean, over in the UK you can literally get thrown into jail if somebody ends up dying if they break into your house and injure themselves

urban knoll
#

Switzerland gun meme

131192684_216532423378935_3585744309163927659_n.png
remote oracle
#

It shouldn't be jail time, but maybe like... taking away your gun license?

mystic ermine
#

There was somebody where people came into their house with knifes or something, the guy tried to defend himself and in the moment basically ended up stabbing the people who broke into his house

#

the guy ended up serving a sentence for that

urban knoll
#

wow

remote oracle
#

If, as a civilian, you kill someone with a gun in self defense, you should lose the gun until you've got the skill to shoot to injure, even in a fairly high-stress scenario

mystic ermine
#

Shoot to injure is stupid

remote oracle
#

Shoot to... disable?

urban knoll
#

Texas goes the other extreme, you can shoot somebody for just going on your farm or invading your property. You just have to give one warning.

fluid sonnet
mystic ermine
#

Where do you shoot to disable?

pure breach
#

still stupid

urban knoll
#

I'm told its just really hard to do in practice 😦

fluid sonnet
#

I’m not sure why that tagged you Cat, apologies

pure breach
#

if someone is threatening your life you shoot to kill

#

you take out the threat

#

plain and simple

mystic ermine
#

Once again, where do you shoot to injure?

remote oracle
#

I mean, what if they weren't threatening your life

fluid sonnet
#

How would you know? Those situations change in seconds.

pure breach
#

then you can't legally shoot them

urban knoll
#

(except in texas 😉 )

remote oracle
#

That's the problem with the death penalty too - if you fuck up and shoot someone who wasn't trying to kill you... they're dead

urban knoll
#

And I think you should avoid using lethal force unless someone's life or safety is threatened

mystic ermine
#

100%

remote oracle
#

basically, I'm against excessive lethal force

urban knoll
#

I mean I get that in rural situations it might take hours for cops to come, and there are farms and stuff.

#

But really that's pushing it.

fluid sonnet
remote oracle
#

And that's why we need training

pure breach
# urban knoll (except in texas 😉 )

you can carry a handgun without a permit, however if you kill someone and weren't fearful for you life you could and probably be charged with 2nd or 3rd degree murder

fluid sonnet
#

You shouldn’t have to have it to defend yourself.

mystic ermine
#

I mean, the issue is where to draw the line

urban knoll
#

Yeah. I think it's reasonable to require gun training for having a license.

mystic ermine
#

At what point do you consider somebody shooting to be justifiable?

remote oracle
urban knoll
#

Yeah, we got it here in Arizona too.

#

Anyone over 21 can have concelled or open carry without a permit.

#

Its pretty insane.

fluid sonnet
#

They have the right to defend themselves though, no?

mystic ermine
#

Like, at what point do you draw the line between being threatened and the justification for shooting?

urban knoll
#

Also, when we had the whole "emergency powers" thing during covid.

pure breach
urban knoll
#

The only restriction on the governors power was that he couldn't change gun laws.

remote oracle
mystic ermine
#

Did you know that there have been studies which show that guy with a gun, man with a knife, man with a knife can easily win within a few feet?

urban knoll
#

Wow

mystic ermine
#

(and often will*)

fluid sonnet
#

Right, not everyone has access to get a license as easily as you make it seem.

remote oracle
#

It doesn't impede you from using a gun in self defense, as long as you've proven you can handle a gun

urban knoll
#

Agreed. A lot of licensing requirements in general favor the rich and well connected.

remote oracle
urban knoll
#

And in many places these "concelled carry liceneses" are almost impossible to get. They're what's called "may issue"

remote oracle
#

If you can get a license and stuff for a gun in an afternoon, that's basically inviting shootings

fluid sonnet
#

Not at all.

urban knoll
#

I think it should really be kind of like a drivers license. Straightforward, but with still a good deal of requirement and training.

pure breach
#

yeah it many states it is

mystic ermine
#

Areas with high gun ownership have less gun crime

urban knoll
#

Yeah? In some places self-defense isn't even a valid reason to get a license.

mystic ermine
#

*high legal ownership

fluid sonnet
#

Legal ownership typically equates to less as cat stated

urban knoll
#

@mystic ermine Yeah, but I think a lot of that is correlation but not necessarily direct causation 😉

remote oracle
#

Not more people as a whole getting licenses, more people who shouldn't have a gun getting licenses

mystic ermine
#

I mean

fluid sonnet
#

You can’t get a license if you’re a felon or have medical issues pertaining to mental health.

mystic ermine
#

Are you gonna walk to the store in an area with high gun ownership and pull your firearm out on some randomer?

remote oracle
#

Because that's a direct symptom of giving out licenses willy-nilly

fluid sonnet
#

For example, it’s extremely difficult for me to buy a firearm where I live because I don’t live in the state I am licensed. I have to travel to said state, and the firearm has to be shipped there.

pure breach
urban knoll
#

Interestingly enough the wild west had relatively low crime rates. However, people would often get drunk in bars and shot each other up. So they had relatively high murder rates.
But there were almost no murders outside of bars (and when there was, it would trigger an angry mob and a lynching).

mystic ermine
#

I think that's the point which people fail to understand, even if you make guns illegal, you're never gonna get them off the street

urban knoll
#

Especially in America.

#

We can't even ban heroin, how are we gonna ban guns?

mystic ermine
#

if anything, you make it much more of a viable tool as you reduce the chance that somebody there is gonna have the stopping power against you

remote oracle
#

I've never seen an article about a law-abiding gun owner stopping a shooting.

urban knoll
#

They definitely happen.

fluid sonnet
mystic ermine
#

They 100% happen

urban knoll
#

They're just not as publicized.

remote oracle
#

I mean, wouldn't they be everyhere?

pure breach
fluid sonnet
#

They happen more often than murder

remote oracle
#

Like, I would've seen them brought up by now

glossy sandal
#

I remember a video from a church where a guy came in with a shotgun and 2 people in the crowd killed him

urban knoll
fluid sonnet
#

^

urban knoll
#

Here's one from reason, a libertarian think tank.

remote oracle
#

I see now that they do save lives sometimes, but... sometimes

urban knoll
#

Yeah, it's definitely only a sometimes thing

remote oracle
#

We can't depend on people with guns protecting other people from a shooter.

urban knoll
#

Definitely

pure breach
#

98% of all mass shootings happen in gun free zones

urban knoll
#

It's true

mystic ermine
#

I mean, a lot of it is the phycological deterrent

pure breach
#

so there's no good guys with guns to take out bad guys with guns

remote oracle
fluid sonnet
mystic ermine
#

You're not going to go into a high gun ownership area and pull your arms out

urban knoll
#

But I still don't think that means you should necessarily be letting anyone bring a gun into a school.

mystic ermine
#

I mean, gun free zones, the potential active stopping force in the area is minimal

pure breach
urban knoll
#

I think it might make sense to have a couple teachers that are armed.

remote oracle
#

Like, I'd like to see what the difference in overall violence is

pure breach
#

yeah because after parkland we know we can't trust SROs

remote oracle
#

between more people having guns and less guns in total

fluid sonnet
mystic ermine
#

Guns ar epractically illegal in the UK

#

We still have a gun crime issue

#

Just, ofc, not as much because most people with illegal firearms generally aim to not get caught, but, there are still the bunch who use them

#

The biggest thing is, people are gonna try and kill one another

#

We don't have shootings in schools, we just have the rare stabbing here and there

urban knoll
#

Yeah.

glossy sandal
#

Issue with allowing certain people in buildings of gun free zones is the power trip that comes with being the person with a gun

urban knoll
#

I agree that might be an issue.

remote oracle
glossy sandal
#

People are corrupt

mystic ermine
#

The downfall is is that in all of these causes, teachers don't have guns, teachers don't have the means to stop somebody with a knife

#

We're a small country

pure breach
urban knoll
mystic ermine
#

Comparing the US to the UK directly is stupidity

remote oracle
#

Gun crime isn't a binary issue - it's not that a gun crime happens or it doesn't

remote oracle
urban knoll
#

Key on mass shootings.

remote oracle
pure breach
fluid sonnet
#

Gun crime in the US is disproportionately reported on in the US by media

mystic ermine
#

A bug issue I see is that people compare raw numbers between countries and places like the US, where there are 51 states, each of which in the EU would basically be large enough to be its own country

remote oracle
#

two hundred forty seven shootings this year alone.

urban knoll
#

Well, I'm not saying they don't happen. I'm just saying you're probably more likely to get killed in the street walking to school, then you are in the school itself.

pure breach
remote oracle
#

Yeah, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore the chance of getting killed at school.

pure breach
remote oracle
#

In America, we have far more worse shootings than virtually any other nation

fluid sonnet
#

Personally, the definition for mass shooting is not even really a good definition. 3 or more people is not a “mass” shooting. That could be a gang, small family, or random people. That definition has changed over the years as well.

mystic ermine
fluid sonnet
glossy sandal
#

The biggest problem with trying to combat anything related to mass shootings is people instantly think your about to ban all guns and raid their homes to take guns and become a dictatorship instead of the actual thing being addressed

urban knoll
remote oracle
mystic ermine
#

BLM leader in the UK got shot

remote oracle
#

Less than half in the UK

urban knoll
#

It all comes from our poverty.

mystic ermine
#

People in the UK went crazy, saying that nobody should get shot for their political beliefs

urban knoll
#

Detroit high school graduates have like a 20% literacy rate.

#

Its freaking insane.

remote oracle
#

It's still horrific, but in the US I want to fucking cry.

mystic ermine
#

Turned out that she got shot by 4 dudes who party crashed to take out somebody they where after

pure breach
mystic ermine
#

Literally not heard about sasha I think her name was since

#

And that tells you all that you need to know about how shit like gun crime is treat in many places

urban knoll
#

I mean I was a victim of school violance. Someone threw a rock at my head in Middle School and I got a Traumatic Brain Injury.

daring locust
urban knoll
#

But it's still a relatively rare event.

#

I'm not particularly afraid of it happening again.

fluid sonnet
#

The US is 16th in Homicide rate/year per 100k population. Considering the amount of firearms owned, this is minuscule.

urban knoll
#

Yeah, we have more firearms than people.

#

Because we have gun nuts.

#

I just think we've got a lot of crime because we have a lot of poverty.

fluid sonnet
#

Most of which wouldn’t harm anyone in the course of their lifetime.

urban knoll
#

I kind of went to a gheto middle school.

#

We had cops there all the time 😆

mystic ermine
#

The scary part is, while the gun nuts are nuts, I don't believe that they're really an issue, outside of... well, clearly they have issues...

remote oracle
urban knoll
#

I don't think that fixes it

#

Education fixes it

mystic ermine
#

But, I mean, I was in the same sorta area, I lived in a sorta like old runned down industrial town in which was sorta failing, practically everywhere in my area was a council estate with high

glossy sandal
#

Trying to narrow down why mass shootings happen to 1 reason is literally insane and a part of the reason why itll never be solved lol

fluid sonnet
#

Education fixes it in my opinion as well.

urban knoll
#

Detroit schools are still going to have a 20% literacy rates, even if you give them a universal basic income

remote oracle
mystic ermine
#

universal income ensures that you have a place to live and such, but, people always want more

remote oracle
#

in poorer neighbourhoods, the education is of less quality

mystic ermine
#

I don't think funding is even the issue with teaching

urban knoll
mystic ermine
#

I mean, there are schools which have defo been let down to all shit

urban knoll
#

Because no one wants to teach there

#

Yeah funding != quality

mystic ermine
#

But, there was a recent article somewhere where somebody flunked

#

got like 0% on their test

#

their attendence was literally shit af, and the mother "didn't know" until the kid fucked the year up

urban knoll
#

Aside from my middle schools, we have excellent schools in my district (Vali). However, the school distrinct right next door (TUSD) is one of the worst in the nation yet their teachers get paid more on average.

mystic ermine
#

Like, that's not a funding issue, that's a negligence issue, and the issue is that no schools are really measured on their metrics

fluid sonnet
#

I also believe it’s a respect issue. A lot of people grow up with really poor etiquette and the way they treat others also is a reflection of that. How to treat others, how to properly accept failure, things like that.

urban knoll
#

Our school district is just better-run, so we get better quality, even though teachers are paid a lot less and Arizona is 48th in School funding.

mystic ermine
#

I mean, places often have two shades to it, you get the places where failing schools are defunded or dropped into oblivion, or you get places where they practically reward schools failing to all shit with more cash rather than pushing them to solve what is often issues administrative issues or people literally just not giving a shit so long as they get paid

urban knoll
#

Honestly if you are born in the inner sity, you have a really hard time getting out, and the only thing that's goona change that is a quality eduation.

mystic ermine
#

it's why it pisses me off that school choice is often deemed as a huge massive no-no

urban knoll
#

I don't think school choice is a magic fix, but it's definitely a big thing.