its not realistic
#politics
shy gulch
tough cedar
Could give the school districts that are failing more money with the stipulation that X metrics need to improve, and if they don't, because of concerns about corrupt administrations or whatever, they can be audited, either by the state or federally, so I guess then you gotta spend money on some commission to audit the schools
Not even really sure which metrics you could go on too, testing metrics imo is kinda cursed
opal moat
Ah, it's always fun when elected politicians use animal sounds when your rights are discussed
feels great
shut vine
Yeah I agree that getting it right is difficult. I don't think schools should fail, and figuring out how to resolve a long term history of a school wasting the public's money with no sign of improving would realistically have to be dealt with on an individual basis; most likely by an appropriately informed government body. https://ed.gov
I also think there is a reasonable precedent with most other public entities whereby the government stops or reduces giving the entity cash, and instead provides honed funding where the entity actually needs it. For example hiring a new competent school administration.
I think most people recognize that education is the most effective area where we can reduce socioeconomic disparity between individuals, and that it's incredibly important in general to improve society. The issue is many people are against showing educators who are incompetent at their jobs the door because they feel like it's an attack on education itself, which is a bad conclusion to come to.
Another really noticeable issue in education is some unions tend to push back against in-depth data analysis, which makes it hard to accurately help identify issues in a particular school.
mystic ermine
restive seal
In December 2014, Stossel claimed, "There is no good data showing secondhand smoke kills people."
Stossel rejects the scientific consensus on climate change and has promoted false claims about the topic.
In 2001, the media watchdog organization FAIR criticized Stossel's reportage of global warming in his documentary, Tampering with Nature, for using "highly selective...information" that placing undue emphasis to three dissenters from among the 2,000 members of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which had recently released a report stating that global temperatures were rising almost twice as fast as previously thought.
I don't think watching this video would be a good use of my time.
mystic ermine
it's basically the notation that getting rid of teachers can often be a complete and utter pain in the ass leading to cases where you have bad teachers for the sake of the fact that the schools can't get rid of them
dusky raft
teachers unions pretty much have a lot of influence
mystic ermine
We had a teacher for a like two years who was basically a insane moron
I feel sorry for her in some ways, but, the notation that my brothers year sent her packing into a mental hospital, I mean, am sure she was heading there anyways, but, still...
Like, her teaching style was basically mymaths and then you've gotta take some numbers from this page in the book, I remember one class off the top of my head where I was just so done, she told us to do some stuff with some numbers from a random page in the book, and then gave us the answer book in which she told us to do something completely different with the numbers in there, either the thing was completely wrong that she told us to do or the whole class is full of idiots
dusky raft
other countries have school choice
We dont always hear about europeans bitch about their education system, and us americans seem to hear nothing but good things about it
woven reef
My teacher got arrested for stealing yogurt
mystic ermine
I think that the US curriculum generally covers more than the ones over here do
at least, i know my ex was going over stuff which looked completely unfamiliar to be in her final years
dusky raft
sadly high school doesnt teach students how to live in the real world
mystic ermine
But, one pro over here is that assuming your parents aren't shitty, there is a good sorta like range of schools which you can pick from
I mean, it's the horrors of it all, US education teaches more but it's more crap you don't really need unless you're going into like specific traits
dusky raft
there should be better vocational and other occupational training
mystic ermine
I think schooling as a whole these days is flawed as all shit, but, at the same point, I think that many subjects are hard to push off
e.g. history
Then again, the focus on testing, testing, testing, really turns these things from a chance to learn about history in a potentially engaging manner into a box ticking excercise which is basically our modern version of doping so it seems
foggy fern
...we need two political parties in this country that are both living in reality, and you ain't one of them.
- Rep. Tim Ryan
Dude got up and said that on the House floor
brisk cradle
Texas is very pro-death even as they satisfy the Christian right's fever dream of banning all abortions
near glen
I wonder what the true reasoning behind that is
Cause like, it's not religious (at least at high level, maybe it's religious for voters), so there gotta be another reason to ban abortions but execute ppl
tough cedar
I believe their justification is that one is murder
and the other is not, because it's endorsed by the state
faint radish
That is, in fact, their justification. You can’t equate abortions and capital punishment and say well, you cant be against one and pro the other, they are two very different things.
Anti death penalty btw, government shouldn’t have that power.
near glen
Many use the reasoning that only god should have the power to take a life
Against abortions
But now you saying gov should have that power too
That's where the contradiction is
Not saying in your arguments, but in what many use
urban vector
the main reason for this, at least in people i've spoke to who hold similar views, is that the babies are innocent, they haven't done anything to deserve being killed
and ofc the people who get the death penalty do
and so when you think of it like that, the views aren't contradictory
dusky raft
and you can say the opposite with the more liberal states, where the death penalty isnt strongly enforced and would rather put someone in for life, even if they commited multiple murders and so on. and they have more ready access to abortions
urban vector
what do you mean by opposite? they aren't opposite views, they are entirely different ones
dusky raft
I mean opposite to what conservative states do
urban vector
right yes
woven reef
and you can say the opposite with the more liberal states, where the death penal...
To me putting someone in for life is a bigger punishment than death penalty
dusky raft
it does cost money to keep em in
faint radish
I'm not sure anyone can truthfully say that unless presented with the choice
it's one of those "would you run into the burning building" questions
Would you rather...
spend life in prison
or
die painlessly
that's a question I would never trust a persons answer to
woven reef
it does cost money to keep em in
Costs money to keep them on death row
dusky raft
thats because of the utter insanity of how its setup
can sue the state if your execution was botched
tough cedar
lol i'd rather die than spend my life in a prison
foggy fern
The insanity of allowing people to exhaust every possible option to avoid the death penalty before we kill them to ensure we don't make a mistake and kill the wrong person?
tough cedar
because it's the last moment that you get to control your life
foggy fern
They also require higher security during this process because if they're about to lose everything who knows what they'll do to others
faint radish
you aren't strapped to a bed unable to move every second you are in prison
woven reef
because it's the last moment that you get to control your life
That decision happens when you committed the crime
tough cedar
uhh actually im not going to continue this conversation lol
faint radish
you are never presented with that choice in real life, so you dont get to control that part, its a hypothetical, that I don't think almost anyone can answer truthfully
they might say an answer, and it might be correct, but you have no way of knowing
dusky raft
besides, I honestly think it might be cheaper and more effective to just use a modified 22 long into the back of the skull. considering the prep time for lethal injection, and cost for the chemical itself...
faint radish
well, drug companies aren't selling the chemicals to the state anymore
I don't think any US-based company sells them anymore
pure jetty
they get them from china iirc
faint radish
which is why states are going back to the chair, firing squads
pure jetty
and they stopped selling them for a bit too
faint radish
you can so easily kill someone from just a simple overdose of anesthesia, you'd think it wouldnt be too complicated
dusky raft
cause enough damage to the brain so fast they may not even feel what hit them.
foggy fern
The most humane way I've heard of to kill someone is oxygen deprivation
Put them in a room, slowly change the air mixture to have less and less oxygen, they aren't even aware it's happening they just get loopy, pass out, then die
The systems for it already exist too, they use them for training pilots
glossy sandal
That's pretty dark
woven reef
Yea
foggy fern
I think it's the same kind of setup they use to treat people for the bends
Airtight chamber where they can control the exact pressure and mixture of gasses
faint radish
well, thing is, you would be aware it's happening cause, ya know, capital punishment isnt secret.
so I think that'd take too long, you'd never know when it was gonna happen, or whatever
maybe the most humane way to kill someone who doesnt know its coming
dusky raft
@faint radish 22 long rifle, modified to pierce the skull from the back of the head, and split upon impact for maximum damage. Considering essentially just ripping up the brain stem, they most likely wont feel a thing
we already do/did it to animals, and is very effective
urban vector
this is getting a bit sick
faint radish
real life ain't pretty
shut vine
Regarding abortion, I'm not religious at all. However I don't believe another human being should be able to kill another. When you apply all of the arguments used to justify abortions to other situations, it becomes relatively clear to me that it's wrong.
I can accept reasonable exceptions such as the life of both the mother and the child are likely at huge risk, and victims of rape since I don't think a person should have the choice taken away completely by a heinous individual.
For example if a doctor says the coma patient is definitely not going to come out of the coma for at least 40 weeks, are they a potential life, or are they a life?
restive seal
To apply the argument I think we're going to need that coma patient surgically attached to a non-coma person (and they found out this was going to happen after it occurred), and ask ourselves if the very much awake person make the decision to separate themselves from the coma patient.
shut vine
That's absolutely inaccurate, one doesn't require the attachment for life to continue.
Additionally you would have to have the person who is being attached being given full knowledge that the coma patient will die if you detach after choosing to attach, and that the attachment will last 40 weeks.
One person in this scenario has a responsibility to the other because the other cannot survive without them. The same is true for babies.
You cannot just leave the baby in a ditch and be like "well I didn't want to be attached anymore". It's murder.
In fact if you give birth in the ditch, and leave it there to die, it's murder.
keen swift
Just curious, what do you think about the death penalty, is that also murder or justice?
pure jetty
well think about it like this, if the mother doesn't want the child, and if having the child would lead to malnourishment, the constant negative associtation of being forced to have it, and possible not actual love for the child, do you still think you should force them to have the child
if you're going to apply a morals argument you can't forget that
shut vine
I am generally against the death penalty.
No one is forcing them to have a child, it was a choice they made.
shut vine
Just because their choice has changed, or they didn't fully comprehend the gravity of their choices, isn't a reasonable means to kill someone.
Just like if they decide to have the child, and then it gets harder than they realized, they can't just change their mind later.
pure jetty
I'm pretty sure there are not women who get repetitive abortions intending to get one in the first place
iirc 95% of abortions or something are a result of an unintended pregnancy
shut vine
If you know contraceptives are not 100%, and have sex anyway, then you made a choice to take that risk.
pure jetty
no contraceptives are ever 100%
pure jetty
that's way too big of a standard to have in that case
shut vine
If the inconvenience of having a child you either do not want or otherwise cannot provide for is the measure by which justifies killing it, then at what age does that stop.
pure jetty
what age does what stop?
shut vine
At what age, or under what measure does the mother no longer have the right to kill the child?
pure jetty
at which age of the mother or the child?
pure jetty
i mean I'm no doctor, i think viability is the term you use where the child would be able to survive out of the womb
past that mark I start to understand the murder argument
shut vine
So 24 weeks roughly.
pure jetty
but before or at that mark seems to me to be the better moral situation
I'd generally follow the science on it
and sure 24 weeks sounds familiar
shut vine
Would it surprise you there are actually 4ish states where no limit is imposed?
US states
tough cedar
the vast majority of abortions occur before like 12 weeks
shut vine
Would you apply the same fallacious argument to other areas like policing?
tough cedar
well i don't know the circumstances for why those 4 states have no limit imposed
idkw hat you expect he already said he probably disagrees past 24 weeks
shut vine
I mean, saying a vast majority is generally not a good argument path. I don't think something should be ignored just because usually it's fine.
https://i.insider.com/5ce4698e021b4c1d920b8997
More than I thought.
pure jetty
Would it surprise you there are actually 4ish states where no limit is imposed?
no but that doesn't rule at them entirely
i don't have to agree with those states
shut vine
I agree. I was more curious if you were aware, wasn't particularly trying to use it in any particular way.
pure jetty
that being said I could maybe be pushed to either side, generally what I heard from doctors tho was the viability/24 weeks cutoff
shut vine
Yeah, 24 weeks is generally the accepted cutoff for viability. I believe the green states leave it entirely up to a doctors discretion as to if it's viable.
Which I'm 50/50 on for reasons other than my disagreement with abortion. If my assumption (which is what it is) is accurate, then I don't think a doctor getting paid to perform an abortion should decide viability.
foggy fern
Supreme Court currently says the limit is at viability
pure jetty
yeah iirc states are able to dance around that by demonstrating new tech that allows them to survive?
shut vine
Which supreme court decision states that?
shut vine
Ah, that ruling is interesting when considering Roe.
foggy fern
It replaced Roe, really
That's why it's kind of amusing people always argue about if Roe would be overturned, that kind of already happened 30 years ago
shy gulch
As long as the abortion is not performed after 24 weeks I see no problem 🤷♀️
Its hard to argue if life begins at conception or not
because that also requires a fine definition of ones belief in life
a single celled organism is technically alive
but its not nor capable of being conscious
the same can be said about a a fetus of 24 weeks or younger
Then if you wanna use the "potential life" or "what it could have been" then you might as well go back to when the fetus was split into a sperm cell and a egg considering that was potential life or could have been a life
meager ice
you have to define a difference between life and an organism
a single skin cell is alive
but it isn't an organism
It cannot live independently of the human body
faint radish
doesn't my arm meet that definition? Can chop it off, it won't live, but I will
meager ice
Yes your arm will be alive for some time, but its not an organism
You could even transplant the arm to another body
It would then continue to live
still does not change that it isn't an organism at any time, only part of an organism and then not
Using this logic you can say that a fetus is alive but not an organism until born
faint radish
so its not an organism if its still relying on the mother
meager ice
However that is kind of arbitrary as well
because you can c section a fetus before 8 months and have it survive to adult hood
I believe the youngest known is 6 months
faint radish
people on life support would live for a time, and die soon afterwards if their life support was turned off
surely they are organisms
I dont think the biological vs technological "assistance" they are getting is really a difference
meager ice
Well the difference between is that cells although alive, do not have autonomy
faint radish
yeah, but a person on life support in a coma doesnt have "autonomy" either
they can't make decisions, and they cant survive without the life support
meager ice
They have to listen to the will of the body communicated by hormones and electrical signals. If the body tells them to die they suicide, likewise they will not grow until told to do so.
People have argued that people in such a state are not really alive either if there is no chance of coming back
faint radish
what if there is a chance, you just dont know when
you can be in a coma on life support and recover
meager ice
If you cut out the brain and leave the stem, the body will still survive, be alive
faint radish
and they also have to listen to the will of the electrical signals keeping them alive
meager ice
but the organism is dead
It can only breathe, and pump blood and do other autonomous functions but it cannot eat and gain energy itself
faint radish
a fetus?
again, neither can a person in a coma on life support
meager ice
yes
faint radish
so its totally fine to off people in comas on life support?
faint radish
the second someone falls into a coma, ok, the doctors can just pull the plug
that would absolutely be murder
meager ice
What is death but a never ending dream?
another philosophy is using the criteria of consciousness
only once a life is conscious, is it considered a person, however human babies are pretty underdeveloped in terms of brain development so it could be argued that human babies are not conscious when born
Interestingly other animals when born could be
shut vine
There are also several medical conditions that would result in a persons death without supplementary assistance, that particular argument is basically a non-starter unless you also believe that those people should be euthanized.
urban vector
The idea that pregnancy is a choice is complete bollocks and so is the idea that forcing someone to carry a baby to term, even when it could literally kill them, is a good idea. I personally believe that the life of a living, alive, post-birth person is more important than that of a baby who is not yet born.
shut vine
I don't believe anyone made the argument that people should be forced even if it could literally kill them or even insinuated, that's a straw man if so. Additionally for people who are not responsible enough to be in control of their own actions (and obviously excluding the exception of rape) it is true that pregnancy is not a choice I guess.
shy gulch
I’m in belief that the fetus can’t have consciousness or real life until around 5-6 months and this time period is well enough for someone to decide what they are gonna do
shut vine
Lack of consciousness doesn't seem like a very high bar for ending a life.
Also there have been significant studies into this, a fetus responds to stimuli like a mothers voice as early as 16 weeks, and kicking occurs as early as 16 weeks as well.
shy gulch
Consciousness just about is life
The he whole coma patient comparison is different
We are talking about a fetus that has no capability or comprehension of feeling or understanding of almost any kind vs someone who was and is fully developed and conscious and is only out of consciousness for an unknown amount of time.
shy gulch
Coma patients have reportedly been able to dream and even comprehend/understand real world communication
raw musk
It cannot live independently of the human body
it actually can in controlled environments, however most of the time it stops existing as a skin cell and tends to mutate into something else that isn't a skin cell anymore.
so as long as the skin cell continues to get what it needs to live, it will continue existing and living. Just eventually over a period of time it will simply stop being a skin cell is all, since it is cut off from the collective and then starts doing its own thing, unless you continue to coax it into staying a skin cell and grow new skin lol
which is actually what is done today to help with skin grafting since you only have so much skin that can be transplanted to begin with
science can be really interesting sometimes lol. However for your argument above I think a better line to draw instead of trying to determine when something is not an organism or whatever, would probably be to determine when does something become conscious or aware. @meager ice
fun fact, your skin isn't fully attached to your body 😉
mystic ermine
jumps on Frostalf
I mean, organism just means multiple cells last I recall, but, me and bioligy was never a good thing, and, depending on the stage can survive outside of the woumb for hours, which is where I eer
Like, I disagee with abortions but I feel that there are many implications around that that I can't entirely justify them being illegal for especially early stage stuff
raw musk
well as technology progresses it gets more difficult on that end
mystic ermine
as grim as it sounds, I hope that there is a strong "hunter policy" there, put it out of its misery, no matter what stage its in, but, eeer... :/
raw musk
I mean we already have the technology to grow babies in chambers, but last I recalled that was already classified as inhumane so it isn't done. For the most part, mammals and most animals have internal biological mechanisms to terminate life when it starts to go horribly wrong. Sometimes that doesn't happen and in most cases if not terminated the baby isn't going to survive anyways, but we have the technology to keep it alive, but then you would have to consider is that even humane to do lol.
Most people who end up in long term coma's actually get removed from life support because that is what is considered the humane thing to do. Normally because most who end up in that kind of state very rarely ever wake up again. There is a select few who never do get taken off life support and end up living the rest of their lives in a hospice/care facility till they die.
Most wouldn't really consider that living, but that is the problem when morality clashes with science though
mystic ermine
I mean, we had a similar "life support" type issue over in the UK with some child who had some condition, and basically there was some experimental treatment in the US which at that point was no longer an option and basically woulda just been "congrats, you're a living vegtable" pretty much, (no offence intended with that one, but, that's pretty much what it was)
I think that abortions should be kept as early as possible with hunter policy, and in general as a society we need to do better around stuff like contraception and making sure that the stuff is available as it protects people in many different ways
raw musk
I am not opposed to people having abortions. But I do agree on the contraception part. If it was more freely accessible which it can be and not seen as some kind of stigma then we wouldn't really be having most of these issues revolving abortions. In the US, in most states for females they require a prescription and usually the parents end up getting involved and pretty much destroying this alternative. For males, sometimes to buy such things have to be 18 or they locked behind the cash register. But, we have a stigma in the US where people are judged and sometimes mocked for buying such things. However in some states, for females it is just an over the counter product and cheap and for males, they are in aisles like any normal product. Which ironically in those states they don't have a lot of issues lol.
mystic ermine
yup
raw musk
But, the other issue is the government getting involved and creating laws around these things as well which I don't agree with other then setting the maximum time someone can wait till abortion is not an option.
mystic ermine
"i'm from the government and im here to help"
Like, At least in the UK we seem to have some form of reasonably sane laws around this stuff, excluding maybe NI
But, generally, I think that the government wants to have too much say in stuff, and I think governments would do their job better if they served their time addressing actual issues
Like, I disagree with abortions, but, when the option is the kid ends up being shipped across foster facilities or whatever and that type of crap, or long term health issues for the child or the parents, it's like, defo not a solution to just let the kid/parents have to deal with it, and who am I to say what the right option is
raw musk
well in the US, when they do want to get involved too much, it appalls me to see how stupid some of these individuals really are in their so called solutions as well.
mystic ermine
Issue is that it's often more political point scoring these days than "hey, lets actually solve the issue"
pure jetty
I don't think stuff that actually gets solved/passed is a result of that point scoring, that's more just what happens in the public or during hearings
but the point scoring stuff doesn't happen during actual law drafting/committee meetings
raw musk
Depends really. In the US, most of these so called solutions don't start at the top. They start at the bottom which is with a county or town/city. And in a town/city or county legislative process most of the time the people don't actually have a say even though the public is allowed to voice their opinion or listen on the hearings. And as far as during the actual law drafting, what ends up screwing it most of the time is that these politicians try to introduce something in said law that isn't relevant to it or try to get themselves some kind of benefit introduced with the new law being drafted.
fortunately most laws in a state before they can be passed has to be voted on by the public, but not town ordinaces or county laws though
those can just be passed at a whim XD
pure jetty
well ideally you want to start at state/local levels
that's where the best laws get passed
take marijuana laws, that started with one state and other states hopped on when they saw it being successful
raw musk
Well, it is both legal and illegal right now in the US
pure jetty
correct, states that legalize it just don't enforce the federal law
raw musk
correct and incorrect
states do not have an obligation to enforce federal laws, that is why we have federal law enforcement. Federal law enforcement can still come in and enforce said federal laws and there isn't anything a state can do to protect you from that.
pure jetty
yeah
which is why state weed shops can't use banks
because of FDIC
even tho the DOJ said they wouldn't convict, still they could
raw musk
However, Federal law enforcement does not have the right to enforce state laws either and can be denied being able to do so as well 😉
pure jetty
heh
raw musk
even tho the DOJ said they wouldn't convict, still they *could*
Well DOJ can't say they won't. Federal Judges still have to follow federal laws and there is federal courts. All of which are separate from the state
pure jetty
right but a judge can't level their own charge
the DOJ has to file it
so that's matter
and idk what point you're getting at with federal enforcing state laws, the supremacy clause allows the federal government convict if they want to
raw musk
not on state laws it doesn't have the right to do that
only on federal laws if they are federal law enforcement
pure jetty
what state laws would they be enforcing
raw musk
My county banned federal law enforcement from enforcing state laws because they have to get the permission from the county sheriff to be allowed to do so 🙂
so, that means fish and game and park rangers can not cite people for things like speeding in my county
mystic ermine
lol, reminds me of highway patrol in the UK
They can call the cops and can ask you to pull over but generally can't do shit
raw musk
kind of defeats the purpose of highway patrol o.O
mystic ermine
le driving 80
"oh shit, is that a cop car" traffic slows down to 65
"Nope, just highway patrol!"
traffic speeds up to 85 to make up for lost time
raw musk
@pure jetty it isn't exactly random that I brought it up. Some states have started doing this because while it doesn't stop federal law enforcement from citing you for federal laws, they can't cite you for state laws on top of that.
pure jetty
right but it's federally illegal, if the DOJ wanted to convict on it, they absolutely could
raw musk
Yes they can, just makes their job harder is all since there isn't very many federal law enforcement to begin with
hence why drug raids have pretty much come to a slow crawl. They happen still, just not at the same numbers as they were happening.
and most federal judges have elected to not hear most of the cases as well
since you know federal judges are appointed and all and can be removed lol. So they do have to keep face with the public and some of those in congress 😛
@pure jetty hopefully soon it won't be federally illegal especially as it becomes increasingly difficult for the federal government to justify it being a schedule 1 drug.
arctic tangle
states do not have an obligation to enforce federal laws, that is why we have fe...
This feels like it's destined to cause tension between states and the state
raw musk
its part of the constitution, think its the 10th amendment if I recall
could be wrong on that last part anyways its called states rights
pure jetty
<@!194473148161327104> hopefully soon it won't be federally illegal especially a...
biden admin seems like they're be ok doing it
raw musk
well I don't really care which administration does it lol. Just as long as its soon because its just becoming stupid at this point to justify it being there
if they want to classify it, it should be in the same classification as alcohol in my opinion
pure jetty
yeah that's fair
raw musk
which means it would be left to the states to regulate how they see fit
pure jetty
well states can only do more than 21
raw musk
not true, if states wanted to they can make the drinking age 18
there is no federal law that states the drinking age is 21
pure jetty
to purchase federally it's 21
raw musk
the reason states make it 21 is that if a state elects not to, they can not receive stimulus payments for road maintenance stuff
raw musk
to purchase federally it's 21
there is no federal law on it
raw musk
did you see what the punishment was?
All the law says is that if a state makes it lower they get 10percent less for annual federal highway funds
pure jetty
yeah
raw musk
that means, there is no punishment for an individual federally. Texas allows underage drinking in limited capacity
raw musk
for instance, married couples. If one is of age and the other isn't, bars can allow the one that isn't of age to drink with their spouse given they show proof of their marriage. Now bars don't have to allow this, just that they can.
raw musk
@pure jetty I used to live in texas, was married in texas and drank at bars in texas before I was 21 🙂
pure jetty
can you show me a current law where purchasing alcohol is legal in any US state under 21
texas has family exceptions for drinking
pure jetty
because it's virtually the parent buying it
idk why we're debating this stupid topic
raw musk
Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands allow underage purchasing as well, but they are not states but do still have to abide by federal laws. Again, there is no federal law that says you can't sell alcohol to someone under the age of 21, only that such places don't get their full highway fund
pure jetty
right because it's tied to highway funding
i never meant states were forced to follow this, they just have to if they want funding
most federal laws are created that way
raw musk
because the ability to drink alcohol or not isn't something the federal government can ban adults from doing, only states have the right to do that.
foggy fern
mystic ermine
My first in the wild HTTP 451
near glen
My first in the wild HTTP 451
Is the reasoning for you EEA too? Cause you know, last I checked you left the cool kids club ^^
mystic ermine
yea
glossy sandal
Wyoming 
daring locust
we do a little vpn
shut vine
Consciousness just about is life
A person who is asleep does not have consciousness.
meager ice
not true
when you go to sleep, you are still conscious of your surroundings and can wake up in response
being in a coma or fainting is different
shut vine
not true
It is true, during slow wave sleep it's a fairly commonly accepted fact by scientists that we're not conscious.
Responsiveness to stimuli is not the basis for consciousness, it's awareness and response. Stimuli can bring someone to a state of consciousness, that's not the same as them being currently conscious.
urban vector
That's just objectively wrong James, whether or not a human is considered conscious during sleep is a bit of an unknown in science and there are plenty of arguments for and against on both sides. I'm "lucky" enough to be ridiculously well read on sleep but you can just go and have a quick Google and you'll find articles and papers stating that we just don't know
shut vine
So for something to be objectively incorrect there cannot be any question that it is incorrect, your own statement is logically contradictory to that fact. Regardless of if it were correct or not, consciousness is not a standard any reasonable human being would use for the decision as to if another human being has the right to end the life of the person with a lack of consciousness.
urban vector
I mean you claimed that it was a commonly accepted fact that we are not conscious when we are sleeping. That is, by definition of the word objectively, objectively incorrect... Google is your friend lmao
shut vine
There are plenty of studies indicating that a person in short wave sleep does not have consciousness. Google is your friend, lmao.
In fact there are even some that indicate a person in REMS doesn't have consciousness, though those are heavily disputed.
urban vector
I mean it was literally like last week I was reading a study in Trends in Cognitive Science (i think?) that was talking about how you can only be considered unconscious whilst sleeping if you define unconsciousness to be what happens when someone is sleeping, and not the more commonly accepted definition of the term
shut vine
Additionally when there is ambiguity in an area as you are suggesting, it's reasonable for a court to conclude in either direciton.
urban vector
sorry why would a court be weighing in on whether sleeping people were conscious and even if they did that doesn't make it a scientific proof lmao
shut vine
You should Google the straw man fallacy.
urban vector
okay sure bud
shut vine
Either way, I don't think lack of consciousness should be the legal standard for if a person can be euthanized (currently illegal in most developed countries under all circumstances excluding a fetus; for better or worse).
Additionally a person does not mysteriously get pregnant. They either willingly engage in an activity that the overwhelming majority of people know causes said pregnancy, or they are forced to engage in it. So for anyone not in that second category, it is absolutely a choice. Just like it's a choice by the other participant.
warm ibex
desperate times call for desperate measures
near glen
He's the gov, he can change it 😂
Don't drag poor Biden into this
Man's old, might not stand with that burden 😂
shut vine
Maybe that's why he clears his throat so much, too much of the Chic fil a sauce.
He might ask for an exception as the President to get two servings of sauce with each meal when everyone else is getting one.
arctic tangle
two scoops
shut vine
If he gets two scoops of sauce he's living every child's dream. More Chic fil a sauce.
foggy fern
Why do you need so much sauce if the chicken is so good?
They'll still give you a cup of sauce
I could understand if you want a little sauce for extra flavor but if you need more than a cup you should just get the sauce and go use it on chicken mcnuggets, you won't taste the chicken anyway 😛
mystic ermine
You're doing it wrong
We also don't have steak sauce over here I don't think
Oh, it's equiv to our "brown sauce" apparently, which does not go on steak, wtf
foggy fern
If you need to put any sauce on steak you burned it
mystic ermine
wtf is wrong with ameri... nvm...
foggy fern
What do you put A1 Sauce on then?
I mean, I don't use it at all but if you were going to use it what would it go on?
Bacon sandwiches and chips, apparently
🤢
mystic ermine
I mean
Over in the UK, chips is basically like a "with every meal" when you come from a council estate family like mine
you HAD to put sauce on it for some hope of masking the horrible flavour of frozen chips
and, well, brown sauce on a nicely done barm is heaven
like, it just adds a bit of like, fluid back, to what is often bacon which was fried an hour ago and kept warm
faint radish
So Belarus huh?
Wtf is going on there
Can’t have countries forcing other countries planes down to a arrest someone from a different country
As I understand it, a Belarusian blogger is wanted for, well, opposing the current Belarusian government, and was currently living in exile in Poland. Poland has refused extradition to Belarus, and this guy was flying between Greece and Lithuania on RyanAir (an Irish airline), when a Belarusian fighter jet ordered the plane to land, they arrested the guy, and sent the plane on its way.
opal moat
Uuuuh that's juicy
The foreign affairs people of a lot of country now demand that Belarus gets thrown out of the icao
Finally some political drama, exciting (and absolutely horrifying, not to mention)
mystic ermine
and if you every worry about a misspelling in production, just imagine how many people saw that before it was uploaded
faint radish
they were talking about roblox the other day right?
pure jetty
yeah it came up
iirc epic was bringing it up as an example of apple allowing 3rd party """"""platforms"""""""
it's super fun to see epic fail to demonstrate any relevant market lmfao
faint radish
so any sort of customization makes it a different platform
"Oh, I can design my base in different ways, that's clearly a 3rd party platform"
or smth like that
pure jetty
iirc they were saying its something apple didn't have to review
tough cedar
i saw a video that said roblox isn't even calling themselves a game anymore
they're calling it an "experience"
pure jetty
because they got cloud gaming platforms to testify against apple
tough cedar
and that they're becoming more of a platform than a game
i've never played roblox though lol
pure jetty
makes sense they'd say that
buzz words for investors considering they went public recently
faint radish
Yeah, you can find anyone saying anything on Twitter. If this was some dude with like millions of followers it’d be more noteworthy
shy gulch
Well they have 11.4K
faint radish
11K, a million, the same thing ya know
faint radish
You gotta be kidding me with this stuff.
The school put out a statement saying essentially that the nazi flag “isn’t representative of our values”.
Who legitimately thought that?
If this turns out to be a history teacher teaching ww2 history, which it certainly looks like, this has to be up there with the stupidest stuff school administrators have done, and that’s saying something
It was being displayed with several other flags that Germany has used throughout history, hardly a signal that this teacher is a nazi.
You know, even if this guy turns out to be a whack job, the schools position that the flag is
not an acceptable way to teach any curriculum
is just flat out wrong
warm ibex
The problem is the conflating of using it in a historical context and using it as a hate symbol, the school doesn’t seem to understand the difference
faint radish
If a school of all places, can’t separate those two things, how can you educate people well?
There’s no need to have a nazi flag hanging in your office break room, I’d be asking some questions about that, even if it was with a bunch of other German flags, I’d ask why they were there, but I wouldn’t bat an eye if I saw one in a classroom.
Unless it was on a shrine and the teacher made the students salute it or smth nutty like that
near glen
Fwit: displaying that flag anywhere in germany is forbidden by law, unless it's arts or education
faint radish
And while I can disagree with that all I want, even that, has an exception for education. Like come on
A very similar thing is happening in universities with the n word,
near glen
That's very very different
faint radish
It ends up getting read in literature and a teacher gets fired, or suspended
No it isn’t, it’s a “magic word”, or “magic flag” in the case of the flag
You say it, show it, doesn’t matter in what context, there are consequences
The n word shows up all over the place in art, and literature. Huck Finn, is usually the book where this issue appears
The Chinese language teacher who said a word, in Chinese that sounds like the n word, nope unacceptable
daring locust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG4iTGjuoKw relevant to above sentence
sleek vigil
are you bored as hell? hop onto https://twitter.com/, go to the trending page, and look at all the people with their conspiracy theories!
daring locust
make sure you VPN to the Netherlands for maximum haha
foggy fern
https://twitter.com/Kn1pher/status/1349715270995206145
How did you even find this tweet from 5 months ago from a nobody that seems to be a copypasta from twitch?
foggy fern
Twitter
shy gulch
warm ibex
you can make any video conservative/libertarian leaning and make the channel name sound like an objective institution, doesn't make it less of a opinionated right wing video
just like how PragerU attempts to make people think they're an actual university
eager hawk
welp this happened like 20 minutes away from where i live so that's fun
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/active-shooter-near-northern-california-rail-yard-authorities-say-n1268623
faint radish
Guy was nuts. Set his house on fire before going to the rail yard
faint radish
Basically another Putin. Doesn’t care if the world really knows what it’s about, just wants people to be afraid
Putin had his hockey game just recently right? I heard he scored a bunch of goals against real players
It’s just making sure everyone knows that you can’t mess with me
foggy fern
That's some North Korea level crap
faint radish
Well, some crazy dictator level crap really
foggy fern
Hmm, this isn't really politics until you dig in to it but to be safe... https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3x47y/an-insurance-startup-bragged-it-uses-ai-to-detect-fraud-it-didnt-go-well
tldr phrenology
pure jetty
interesting
near glen
All our AI projects at work (I work for a mid sized insurance I guess) are such cluster fucks, it's amazing
foggy fern
It sounds like it really is just a popular saying in China, perhaps his speechwriter didn't know or he ad-libbed that
I mean, the original is Mao, yeah
Someone should have Google'd that though 😛
Considering the shit people say about him and China someone should definitely screen for anything linked to China to avoid fueling that fire
glossy sandal
Next 3 weeks fox news will be Biden and china related
short turret
why a discord about running software (or whatever the spesific term is) that makes your server run faster has a tab about politics is beyond me, but since its here i would like to raise the case about social democracy beign capatalistic and that.............
pure jetty
huh
mystic ermine
this is a place where people talk socially in general, given that people generally aim to get along
pure jetty
a social democracy is like the nordic model or something even like the us
mystic ermine
pure jetty
if you mean socialism that's something different
short turret
idk i watched
this vid and it semms correct https://youtu.be/vyl2DeKT-Vs
short turret
an ad hominum attack isent an argument
mint depot
You sent an argument?
pure jetty
marxists aren't the best at telling history
short turret
doesent discrediting someones idea based on there views an ad hominum attack?
short turret
idk its easyer
pure jetty
what is easier?
torn wadi
Let me just quickly remind you that people who didn't live in socialism and/or communism won't listen to it's arguments.
short turret
and prob more entertaining for you
pure jetty
what
short turret
thats just a generalisation
mint depot
short turret
and is kinde pessemistic for thinking that all people are close minded to other ideas
wraith grail
wat
mint depot
sorry
molten forge
torn wadi
Krof je kebab!
weary lake
All odd numbers have an E in them is still my favorite
near glen
<#738890587721302097> aims to keep the political crud out of <#55546907408020276...
Wait we are friends?!
mystic ermine
fuck off mini
near glen
That's how I love my cat
daring locust
typical cat behaviour
near glen
Unrelated: had a vid call with a contractor today, and he has a PiP cat cam in his webcam
daring locust
dude games
glossy sandal
The learning cat for motivation and morale
daring locust
back on topic: one of my friends raised an interesting point: should parties be allowed to have the most amount/majority of seats year after year? (in a multiparty parliament)
mystic ermine
if people vote for them, yes
The horror in general is career politicians, not not having the people you want in the seats
weary lake
I always found it a bit odd that in some place parties (or other people with power) would not be allowed for more than x amount of time. I don't see why you'd exclude them even if the people still want them?
daring locust
personally think that while that might make voters happy, there might be a cycle with 2 big parties just exchanging majorities year after year
if they weren't allowed to have majority consecutively
mystic ermine
The issue is more those who turn their careers into being a politician rather than who wins/loses
issue with these big 2 party systems is that there is little accountability for what anybody does
like, sure, you might drop a politician here and there over the years, but, generally, people get away on saying that they're gonna do good for the country
Take the tories and labour over here, the tories are a corrupt fuckfest of shaking hands with their mates with contracts
meanwhile labour is too busy screaming up and down that everything is racist and if you don't vote for them you're a racist
Issue is that labour is still party #2, and as unelectable as they are and as unelectable as their leader is, they're still gonna be #2 because, "you can't vote for anybody else, otherwise you're basically voting for a tory"
Tories can do whatever the fuck they want, as the #2 party is basically unelectable
and #2 party can do whatever they want because "at least they're not the tories"
There are a few places where labour is doing well but that's generally places which have been fucked over by the tories like,during the thatcher decades, people still hold them over that, but, nobody really holds labour over all their promises and shit
last election labour did better than expected in some areas, primarily student heavy areas, on their promises of free tution, etc;
Only after the election when they took a bit of a hammering in some areas did they come out and silently admit, 'we have no idea how we'd pay for it'
but, people still think labour in power will result in free education for all
near glen
Another interesting question: should politicians be allowed to earn money outside of their mandate?
mystic ermine
I mean, that's complex
near glen
Like, if the serve, what the gov pays them should be enough right, everything else quickly creates a conflict of interest
mystic ermine
Like, I bet many people here have or have in the past worked a 2nd side job or taken cash for some work they've done outside of their primary time eater
I don't think it's fair to say that, you're a politican, you can only do 1 job, especially as many don't even pay
but, there defo needs to be better measures against people taking cash from other parties with a vested interest
near glen
I think for the time they serve their mandate, they shouldn't be allowed to accept anything. They should only serve the ppl, nobody else
mystic ermine
issue is that it's pretty easy to hide money these days, pretty much everybody who is corrupt turns out to have some magical charity of which does ractically fuck all
tough cedar
lol in texas the legislature is part time, meets in odd numbered years and is only paid like 10k for their 140 days
near glen
That explains why Texas gets nothing done, lmao
Federal and state level politican is a full time job
faint radish
why does it have to be?
I think its great that they actually have to do something else, makes it more likely they are in touch with real people
mystic ermine
I mean, that's what pisses me off with politics
people think that it's primarily left and right
and, yea, you have the far side extremists
near glen
Isn't the left and right thing mostly a problem in countries that only have two big parties?
mystic ermine
But, like, I think most people are generally pretty centerist if not left/right leaning on certain wider areas, but, generally willing to come to some level of agreement or sorta like, i forgot the word, willingness to accept that you don't always get 100% of what you want
but, the biggest thing I see is that it's more us vs them
near glen
I think its great that they actually have to do something else, makes it more li...
Does that really make them be in touch with normal ppl tho? Earning less would bring them closer to the rest of the people, no?
mystic ermine
You have our PM bitching about how he's not paid enough, you have politicans who act like basically everbody is literally the worse
near glen
Yeah I guess political culture is way worse elsewhere
mystic ermine
No, having to spend time outside of your office and your million dollar or upstreet private guarded appartment block is how you say attached to the country
near glen
How does a politican have a million dollar home?
weary lake
I know that in our... I don't know the English words for it, but basically the second layer laws get passed to, people will often have like 10 jobs and usually all they do is accept laws their company wants them to accept. So... yeah.
mystic ermine
if you do a good job, I don't see why that's an issue, imho
near glen
Our health minister just brought a multi million dollar villa
daring locust
you could compare it with the house of commons/house of representatives @weary lake
weary lake
I mean, in theory I don't mind politicians having a second job, but when they literally just accept laws on behalf of the company, yeah, no thanks. Of course drawing a good line is practically impossible.
near glen
So my question is why he can afford that
mystic ermine
Like, the thing is that many of the people who scream about a better society are often cash horders themselves or working jobs offering far above what 99% of people will ever make all while screaming that they should be paid more
the entire system is fucked
near glen
I mean, in theory I don't mind politicians having a second job, but when they li...
That's the thing. As soon as they get money from elsewhere, it's impossible to tell if they still independent
mystic ermine
I mean, how does a politician get anywhere without the backing and media campaigns of a party?
near glen
That's where I would draw the line, cause it's the only way to draw a clean line
mystic ermine
Like, at these these days, indepenents get basically 0 coverage
same unless you're in one of the big two, really
near glen
Idk how parties get money in the US, but parties here get money by their members and by the gov. The more votes the more money. And then you got donations of course, that's the shady stuff
But it's not the primary source
weary lake
you could compare it with the house of commons/house of representatives <@!27678...
Apparently our government website is translated into English and they explain how democracy works here and they call it the Senate, so I guess it'd be that
daring locust
in the us there's sponsors
mystic ermine
people in seats also get paid iirc
Like, theres many ways that politicians get cash
near glen
Oh yes a politican gets money for his seat and for his office, to have like a secretary and stuff
daring locust
saw a documentary once where they mentioned 30(?)% of us senators are sponsored by fuel companies
tough cedar
in the U.S you can take 'donations' or have the government pay for your election
daring locust
aka nudge nudge can you lobby against climate protection bills for money? wink wink nudge nudge?
tough cedar
but if you have the gov pay for it, you're not allowed to take any other money i believe
so no one takes the government money because it's almost more limited than getting 'donations'
near glen
I think the first step would be to have a public database of all donations and all meetings high level politicans have, with listings for with whom they met, what the topic was, and which bill they lobbied for
So the public can hold people accountable
Transperency is very important
mystic ermine
easier said than done and you're trusting that they're accurate
daring locust
the panama shell companies
mystic ermine
"oh, yea, while I'm here, lemmie just leave this suitcase here and talk about my newest investments, ;)"
near glen
If they are not and it goes public they get yeeted by pressure of the public
Public should hold ppl accountable
near glen
And you would obviously not accept out of country companies @daring locust
Well at least that part still works here cat, i think 5 ppl got yeeted from their seats the last few months after the became public that they did shady deals with masks
One minister got yeeted because she faked her promotion thesis or smth
mystic ermine
over in the UK those people are generally in unelectable positions within their parties canidates
in the US, people generally pay attention to one specific set of media channels which reflects their views and so getting the info people would need to say "holy fuck that person is sketch" is a joke
near glen
Thankfully we have independent (enough) journalism
And we have an objective gov founded news show every day that ppl generally trust
Not gov funded, publicly funded, gov obviously has no control
mystic ermine
We just have dozens of big corporations
only real independent news is on YT, which, er....
daring locust
we have the public broadcast and plenty of independent newspapers and news websites
mystic ermine
over here there really ain't much room for them to grow
Like, newspapers are basically dead afaik outside of the pre-internet generation or people needing stuff to package stuff for moving
getting a new site up and running is a whole lot of work in which getting people away from the big coorps is a pita
daring locust
i find myself browsing the newspaper every so often
mystic ermine
if I have a news paper I might peek at it, but, I'm not gonna buy one with the WWW there
daring locust
fair enough
near glen
I have a news paper abo
It's obviously not a paper
But I think supporting independent journalism is important
It's 20 euro per month I think I can spare that, lol
daring locust
there's this local newspaper that just delivers in a pdf format through their app so you can still get the newspaper experience
daring locust
it's more province-wide news
small country so everything is relevant everywhere lol
near glen
And it's an epaper, so like a news paper, but digital and with some interactive content and stuff
They have section for local, section for country, section for world, section for economy, section for sport, section for culture, etc
All by different ppl obviously
mystic ermine
There'sno real like, independent media in the UK as it's pretty hard to get anywhere bar the internet
printing your own paper sounds cool but you gotta actually get it in the shops
near glen
That's super easy
A comedian here did a bit and printed a magazine and got it virtually everywhere
There are distirbution networks you tab in and they do everything for you
mystic ermine
in the UK there is often very little space for even all the big printers
near glen
Maybe that's just German efficiency then?
warm ibex
idk i watched
this vid and it semms correct https://youtu.be/vyl2DeKT-Vs
"cuba is democratic", lol give me a break
faint radish
speaking of democracies, syria just had its election I think. Bashar al-Assad was relected with 95.1% of the vote.
BUT to make sure it all went down legit, they had Belarusian election monitors
so we know its all good
near glen
Hey, at least ppl had other options
Of course those were gov approved and hand picked to be weak
But options!
Wouldn't that be a nice place for the US to share some western values with?
Or would that make Erdogan unhappy, cause he seems busy with genocides these days
Against the Kurds, against the Armenians
Its a wonder turkey didn't do anything in Israel yet
faint radish
well... Israel has quite a few big time allies, so I think that makes them a much less appealing target
near glen
I guess it also never was part of the osmanian empire?
Cause that seems to be what Erdogan wants to build
foggy fern
Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia are all too busy messing with each other to do anything with Israel
short turret
"cuba is democratic", lol give me a break
its not a direct democracy where people get to chose the laws, but they do get to pick the polaticians like in most developed country's
daring locust
wow today i will pick choice 1 of 1
cursive rose
welcome to hostile britain
dusky raft
brisk cradle
I'm calling it now. American democracy is on its deathbed. https://apnews.com/article/michael-pence-donald-trump-capitol-siege-government-and-politics-4798a8617bacf27bbb576a4b805b85d9?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
Permanent GOP minority rule will be a thing after 2024.
brisk cradle
There will be, it's been their design for at least the past 30 years if not more
The GOP is in decline, it has turned against democracy to preserve its fragile grasp on the country.
pure jetty
Them being able to block some votes in the Senate for now is what you're calling minority rule
20 senate republicans are up for reelection in 2021
brisk cradle
*2022, and historically midterms have turned against the party that occupies the White House
brisk cradle
Which should augur a bad year for Democrats.
pure jetty
we can't assume that
brisk cradle
The pattern has been consistent, however these are unique times. Perhaps Democrats will beat the odds and gain seats in 2022.
If they do, though, it won't change much.
pure jetty
the majority of presidents get reelected
that didn't come true this year
you don't need to be so doomer on everything
canvasing operations are also going to be record highs
brisk cradle
Well, let's see here. The GOP is likely to win the House on political gerrymandering alone.
Even if you have a strong turnout for Democrats, the GOP may well win the House due to gerrymandered seats.
pure jetty
we'll see
Biden's got a year with the current house/senate makeups
i have full faith that he will maximize it to the fullest
his infra bill seems amazing in it of itself
brisk cradle
This is still sad, though. They could put us on a course correction but won't, since it'd upset the apple cart.
pure jetty
This is still sad, though. They could put us on a course correction but won't, s...
who is they
and what is the course correction
brisk cradle
they = Democrats
course correction = you know, stuff like restoring voting rights, pro-labor legislation, and I say pack the Supreme Court too since they enabled this mess
pure jetty
so uhhh
brisk cradle
These times call for more than the usual technocratic fixes, they require courage.
pure jetty
as for restoring voting rights, most they could do is pass something giving intensive for states to accept their prescriptions
fed really can't blanket enforce shit when it comes to voting, hard constitution limits on that
as for pro-labor legislation idk what you mean by that
and as for packing the supreme court that's probably one of the dumbest ideas ever
neither side wants to push that ball down the hill because it will never stop spinning
it will just be stuck with whoever is in control
9 is a fine number under the current system
faint radish
if they want to go to 13 so theres one for each district, then you gotta do it like add 1 every pres term or smth
pure jetty
a lot of these things that "require courage" are either just things that aren't politically possible or just staight up aren't popular
faint radish
you cant just jump from 9 to 13 immediately
well you can, but its stupid for the reason JRoy mentioned
brisk cradle
9 is a fine number under the current system
Nothing says there has to be exactly nine justices.
That number is proscribed by Congress, not the Constitution.
pure jetty
I'm not saying it's impossible to do so
I'm saying it's fine for now
if we start increasing that republicans will do the same when they get power
brisk cradle
But at the same time, you can't just do nothing. Republicans are already willing to do everything they can to kill democracy and institute minority rule, the evidence is right in front of your face.
pure jetty
you pick the lesser of two evils
brisk cradle
They've already done it at the state level. They are clamoring to make it universal.
pure jetty
what about that article
ok
I'm more interested on what you mean when you say the democrats can do more
brisk cradle
already told you
pure jetty
as for restoring voting rights, most they could do is pass something giving intensive for states to accept their prescriptions
fed really can't blanket enforce shit when it comes to voting, hard constitution limits on that
as for pro-labor legislation idk what you mean by that
i guess i mean more expand on what you mean
because as for the first reason you gave, it's close to impossible to do forcefully, and I don't know what you mean at all in regards to your second
faint radish
what's American culture
there are like 500 different cultures someone would identify with
lol 500, there are probably hundreds of thousands
that's whatever that culture is, but you go to 100 americans and I'd say chances are high that all 100 probably haven't even heard of these people
I do think a lot of people in smaller, population and geographic, countries dont quite understand how big the US is
big in terms of it taking a week to drive across, but also the crazy differences between one area and the next
and, you can't define a countries culture by whatever weird group you find in the country, otherwise all countries would be defined by their weirdest person.
the US certainly doesn't have a monopoly on weird people
but, that is the perception I think to most people because the news writes about it because its entertaining to watch/read/learn about things that you find strange
near glen
I wasn't generalizing
I just meant that this part of American culture (one small part of the many facettes) is weird to me, as I haven't seen that kinda stuff on this side of the pond
The idea that you would carry a machine designed to kill into a house of god seems alien to me
faint radish
you cant even call that American culture, even if 50% of a group do something (like carry a gun), you cant use the name that encompasses the whole group to define that 50%
a 100% pacifist who would commit no violent act under any circumstances and someone who would shoot someone trespassing on their property can both be american
but they aren't part of the same culture group "American"
there is no American culture in the same sense that other countries do have a culture that can be applied to almost everyone living there
near glen
Maybe we think of culture differently
faint radish
a culture is about what values you hold, how you choose to life your life, who you believe you are accountable to, etc
those two people do not have any crossover in that area, yet they are both american, and also there are large numbers of both groups, neither are fringe
so they can't be part of an American culture
I think decades ago you could make more of an argument for american culture based on our government, and the rights we believe it shouldnt be able to infringe upon
not so long ago, both major parties agree on 9 out of the top 10 issues in the country, now its 0
they had different solutions to the problems, but the problems were the same
this isnt a good thing, I'm not trying to say "no american culture is a good thing", I'm just trying to spell out what is reality.
There is supposed to be an american culture, that anyone from around the world can join, you just have to have the same ideas about the limits of governance, but that is changing
near glen
I wasn't talking about one giant American culture, I was talking about this group of ppl and their way of living, their culture. and since they are Americans, that's also American culture. Just not THE American culture, just a part of American culture
faint radish
you cant use the word American to describe that culture then
near glen
No need to get hung up on words anyways, culture was just the best word I had in mind for describing that
faint radish
that's a group of americans who have their own culture, you cant define it as "American" because its a fringe idea
if there is even one actual nazi in germany, I could then say, "Wow, I didnt know national socialism was still part of German culture"
its not, clearly
you can't use such a broad term to describe such a small group of people with their own culture is what Im saying
foggy fern
Guns are basically a religion for a big part of America though, even if they don't explicitly make/join a religion for it
So it's not surprising someone took that last step
faint radish
even if 50% of americans literally worshipped guns, you still cant call it American culture
it has to be practically ubiquitous to warrant that moniker
near glen
As I said, I wasn't generalizing and I am sorry if that came of wrong
surreal delta
Most Americans seem to be fine with guns though
pure jetty
do you have any data to back that up
iirc the % of americans who own a gun is like 30 ish
and even the percent of americans in favor of more stricter gun laws is over 50%
so uhh
foggy fern
It's like 80%, isn't it?
pure jetty
uhhh i think i depended on how the question was asked or the proposals were given
but even for a moderate reform I know that polls above 50%
surreal delta
do you have any data to back that up
No it’s an observation
Many are in favor of stricter gun law but I haven’t seen many who actually want guns to be banned in America
pure jetty
lmfao "observation"
and I don't think most americans want to ban guns in america either
considering its not that easy nor is it politically possible
surreal delta
lmfao "observation"
Thus the “seem”
pure jetty
near glen
Tweet has a reply with her reply to the expected backlash
faint radish
yeah, this nutjob compared the plight of having to identify yourself as not vaccinated to jews in nazi germany
MTG that is
near glen
What is MTG? My google only returned magic the gathering so I gave up, lmao
This reply is also nice
pure jetty
What is MTG? My google only returned magic the gathering so I gave up, lmao
Marjorie Taylor Greene
crazy congress fucker
got kicked out of all her subcommittees
near glen
For ppl like that I always wonder, is it bad education, like do they just don't know better, or do they know and do this on purpose? Or do they know but choose to ignore I guess
Like, some 25 year old in germany on some demonstration compared herself to Sophie Scholl
pure jetty
I don't think its bad education per say but being convinced you can't just that education
near glen
Cool vid, one of the security guys said something like wtf is wrong with you, And literally threw his towel right on stage
mystic ermine
She's fucking crazy but some people stand with some of her values
near glen
mystic ermine
parts of the headaches these days is getting politicians willing to stand on their hind legs and do something about shit
near glen
No subtitles and stuff but you can see the security dude quitting
mystic ermine
So, yea, shes bat shit fucking lala, but, she stands up
near glen
That's the same thing with right wing extremist parties like the German afd cat. They provide some views I could actually understand. I wouldn't support them, but I wouldn't blame others to support those views. But then there's the bat shit crazy stuff. If you support the normal stuff that these ppl do, you always the other stuff too. You might not be a nazi, but you have no problem being around Nazis and supporting Nazis, that's the next best thing to being a nazi
So you gotta find others that share your values without the crazy part
faint radish
this is why history is so important, understanding that good people who would never do something like (invoking Hitler ALERT) what happened in germany in WWII, and to a lesser extent, what mussolini did as well. Bad people with bad ideas, but they are charismatic, and stand up, and at least look like they are doing something
this is also, in no way a comparison between those guys and MTG, but more of a segway into high schools not thinking the nazi flag is acceptable for any curriculum
near glen
Teaching 1933 in school is more important than ever before
Only if you can understand the mistakes of the past, you can avoid them in the future
faint radish
afaik, this was a english class teaching a lesson on propaganda and Nazi Germany is like, the single greatest example to look at
near glen
Then again, I find getting caught up on symbols really stupid too
But obviously all our material in school had Nazi symbolism all over it
faint radish
idk what this guy was doing with the flag, but it was displayed with other german flags. A student walking by the classroom saw it and said something
near glen
You can't imagine how weird it was for me visiting temples in Bali, where you got swastikas all over the fucking place
faint radish
my first reaction to seeing a swastika isn't as a religious symbol, which sucks for the religion
near glen
Yeah same
I think the only other place I ever visited that had such a high concentration of swastikas was fucking Auschwitz
faint radish
speaking of... I watched Operation Finale just yesterday
mystic ermine
What you're often forgetting of is how biased the media is
Like, apparently there is a study which shows that repubs are more likely to actually watch media from across the isle, but, I mean, I even as somebody who tends to stay to the centre can hardly read CNN with good faith
near glen
Other than some newspaper leaning a bit to one, and some a bit to the other side, media here prides itself with independence
mystic ermine
you think that FOX are likely to show her insanity all that much?
media in the US and in the UK is primarily controlled by rich fucks with vested interests
near glen
Then again, we got moral standards in media and a Gremium that polices them
mystic ermine
independent media often sorta like, gets in trouble with places like YT on both sides of the isle afaik
near glen
What has independent media to do with YouTube?
mystic ermine
YT is basically the biggest place for these people to start up as it's the only driving force for real attention unless you're able to invest in all the crap to get your own platform up and running
near glen
Oh you talking about new sites
near glen
There are enough independent old sites here, that have a long tradition and history
mystic ermine
the "independent media" places are huge corps with their own partners
Yea, but you're comparing your place to somewhere squeezing the little guy is basically the norm
pure jetty
idk man the track record of the mainstream media on basic facts seems to be a lot better then any new age media, and I'm talking about actual written reporting not the pundit stuff or whatever
mystic ermine
Issue is determining facts from the pundits
pure jetty
it's pretty easy to get the basic facts from an article and do research yourself off that
mystic ermine
news corps are admitting that a lot of their content these days is opinion based
pure jetty
pundits are a whole different ballgame yeah
but the actual reporting from any MSM in the US really is typically ok
mystic ermine
and, shamefully, the pundits are a huge % of media consumption
"actual reporting" is also subjective
pure jetty
i mean articles and stuff where the author isn't really the subject
mystic ermine
Like, fact based reporting still exists but is visiablly small and often takes a click-bait form of stuff
pure jetty
if you're watching anderson cooper or rachell maddow that's different
near glen
Hey, I know why I have a newspaper subscription, I sure wanna make sure we don't end up in such a wasteland media wise as the US
mystic ermine
And, "skipping facts" these days appears to be a common technique
Do you think FOX are gonna show MTG acting like a psycho?
pure jetty
They probably wouldn't report on it in the first place
but I don't think the fox news website is as bad as their tv network
mystic ermine
I was watching the fox coverage during the election, and it was weird
Like, it felt like there was a lightswitch moment when they determine that biden was gonna get it
pure jetty
lul
mystic ermine
I don't got a comparative thing which isn't dirty
near glen
It's so weird how different societies can be. In germany we don't have "news" channels like fox. You can't compete with publicly funded journalism, so the private channels focus more on entertainment, their news segments are really high level
mystic ermine
||it was sorta like they where rimming trump and the moment he blew it they where just there disgusted like, hey, maybe biden ain't so bad||
pure jetty
i mean publicly funded news has its own problems
near glen
Oh of course that can have its own problems
But it sure works better than the US situation
pure jetty
for now
all it takes is someone to abuse that
a government monopoly on news is a terrible idea in practice lmfao
near glen
Gov literally has nothing to do with it
pure jetty
publicly funded i thought you said?
faint radish
didn't you say someone policies the media?
near glen
You mixing a ton of stuff, lemme try untangle it
mystic ermine
I mean, if you forget all the corruption and shit, yea, public funded is great as they have nobody to appease
near glen
MM, the policing thing is the "media codex". That's a Gremium where I think all major publishers have ppl in. Not gov related
Then we got the public funded media. Every household pays for that. They are controlled by a board that consists of ppl from NGOs, unions, church (...) etc and the political parties send one guy too
It basically is meant to represent our whole society, more than the government could, cause minorities also get a say
There was actually a case that went to our highest court in 2014 that ruled that this variety is of upmost importance
faint radish
how does a court rule something is important?
near glen
In most parts of the country, even LGBT representatives are present in these boards
pure jetty
that seems a lot better than what I was thinking
mystic ermine
I mean, issue is the attachment that much of our stuff has to the government
faint radish
back to my usual court argument, courts say yes, or no to laws and provide their assent, or dissent
near glen
how does a court rule something is important?
The interpret laws and set guiding principles or whatever it's called
mystic ermine
e.g. the BBC while not funded directly by the government as such are paid by the TV license which is government mandated and basically on the BBC to tax
faint radish
set guiding principles... oh man, ok. How is that not the job of the people to set the guiding principles?
mystic ermine
the BBC has been seperated a good chunk from the government but they still have tory peeps on their board
faint radish
through their representatives, the legislature
foggy fern
Twitter
mystic ermine
and, in general
pure jetty
keem 
foggy fern
miss information
near glen
set guiding principles... oh man, ok. How is that not the job of the people to s...
Courts speak the will of the ppl?
mystic ermine
Gotta watch out for Mr Information, he doesn't like it when you're messing around with his misses
faint radish
thats like the definition of a legislature, execute the will of the people
a judiciary should be ideally, completely independent of the will of anyone
foggy fern
faint radish
that's impossible practically, but the closer the better
near glen
Court orders literally start with "in the name of the people", lmao
pure jetty
idk how courts in GE work but in the US it's very much not in the name of the people
foggy fern
pure jetty
well no
because the will of the people is pretty subjective
is a judge getting a poll for every ruling?
if yes, why have a judge
if no, 
mystic ermine
I mean, at the end of the day, you're gonna have ideas for society which people think are just fucking stupid
But, I mean, take cannabis
faint radish
the parts of government are supposed to do different things, the legislature represents the will of the people
mystic ermine
People have been wanting to make it legal for decades
it's now well into majority support across the world for at least medical stuff
and yet many governments are still against it
near glen
It's mostly the how thats interesting cat
pure jetty
a bunch of states are "legalizing" it
foggy fern
On a related note, courts in Australia, Germany, and Netherlands have ruled governments and companies have to do more to combat climate change recently
near glen
You gotta have a plan
foggy fern
Not like "I wish you would", more like "legally mandated to do so"
mystic ermine
that's a good chunk of the issue
faint radish
yeah, I got in a disagreement with mini when germany did that about this same thing, why is that the job of the court
near glen
Oh yeah, the ruleing against shell is big
mystic ermine
politics is a game controlled by the few
foggy fern
Germany signed on to the Kyoto Protocol, the court ruled they couldn't delay taking action on it until the end as the government has a responsibility to future generations
faint radish
court is a, "you can do that, you can't do that" not "you have to to this"
near glen
Dutch court ruled that shell violates the Paris agreement and ordered them to reduce their emissions by 45% compared to 2019 or smth along those lines
(only first instance, shell will obviously appeal, but it sends a signal)
faint radish
Germany signed on to the Kyoto Protocol, the court ruled they couldn't delay tak...
my problem with this, is that it should be up to the people to decide if the gov is doing enough or not
not the court
but the people through the legislature
foggy fern
If we'd actually ratified that treaty I could see a court in the US doing something similar
near glen
For the German case it wasn't the enough. It was shifting the responsibility on future generations that has been ruled illegal
foggy fern
It's not feasible for them to do basically nothing and assume in the last year or two before they deadline they can just have emissions fall off a cliff
near glen
They made a law to reduce missions, but left most reduction to post 2030, with no concrete actions
Leaving my generation to figure out how to deal with that shit
foggy fern
You're a zoomer?
pure jetty
right to future
foggy fern
yep, zoomer
pure jetty
omegalul
near glen
Look, if you don't act now, you are hurting the freedoms of future generations
That shouldn't be allowed
Cause if you don't do stuff now, we have to do way harsher actions later
near glen
They obviously phrased it better, lol, that's just the headline that made news
faint radish
but you are appointing this court as the ones in charge of "if you don't act now, you are hurting the freedoms of future generations"
instead of the people
near glen
Well, they just rule on facts and logic
And the laws
And that given law was shifting responsiblites on future generations which the court ruled is not acceptable
Because it violates my constitutional rights
near glen
We actually have laws against government debt if you mean that
And you can't really compare economical dept to environmental dept
No bailing out for mother nature
faint radish
aha, but now were are even closer to the territory that people should decide that
what is more important, and you can say there is a clear answer
but you aren't the only person in germany
faint radish
yes, the importance of averting the effects
near glen
No, the effect on my constitutional rights in the future
faint radish
and maybe 90% of people are right with you, in that case, you should have no issue getting the legislature to act
I thought it was about future generations
foggy fern
near glen
My generation and future generations to coney it's all the same
The ppl who sued were between 18 and 27
foggy fern
Sounds like these guys are about to take over a dam and force it open
brisk cradle
What is MTG? My google only returned magic the gathering so I gave up, lmao
I live in her congressional district. She's that bad, and she is adored by so many. Unredeemable.
brisk cradle
Interesting interview with a guy who approaches redistricting from the mathematical perspective. He says recent Census changes may make it more difficult to do the most extreme gerrymanders. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/05/27/redistricting-gerrymandering-2021-moon-duchin-interview-491199?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Catch: Alabama, supported by 16 other mostly Republican states, would like the Census Bureau to stop using differential privacy in the Census results.
faint radish
I mean, was this just a grave site for children who died tragically? or did they all die in some horrific accident, or not accident?
either way, its a little chilling
sand shale
The First Nation is working with museum specialists and the coroner's office to establish the causes and timings of the deaths, which are not currently known.
foggy fern
Canada tried to do a bit of genocide by taking children from First Nation peoples and putting them in boarding schools to ensure they were raised without their culture and the bodies were found at one of those schools so... it's probably not good
brisk cradle
There's no good place for this, but given that big tech companies are under antitrust assault by national governments, I put it here. It was a very interesting read. But don't forget that AWS also subsidizes this activity by being the world's largest leaser of compute power.
shut vine
Ah, this is basically the same as the AppStore suit, mostly differs by optics.
I find it surprising that anyone would fall for a company saying "free shipping" though. What any company that does a free shipping thing is actually doing is "every customer is offsetting the cost of shipping in the base price of our products, regardless if they meet the free shipping criteria or not".
faint radish
yeah, and people who dont pay for prime have to pay the "shipping" cost in addition to the normal price of the item right?
shut vine
Which is one of the criteria for which they determine you're eligible for their free shipping. But just like when a company says "if you buy more than $40 of goods you get free shipping", every customer is actually paying for the shipping costs in the base price of the product. $7 is barely enough to cover the cost of shipping a single package at economy rates.
pure jetty
Ah, this is basically the same as the AppStore suit, mostly differs by optics.
no, the app store isn't a relevant market
at least the amazon suit has a relevant market
but the burden of proof is going to be crazy on the plaintiff to prove how Amazon damages customers
we'll see what happens
could go either way
shut vine
Apple has made statements that contradict that sadly.
pure jetty
Apple has made statements that contradict that sadly.
contradict what
and what statement?
shut vine
That the app store isn't a relevant market under competition law, and pretty much most of the material documenting the app store, as well as several other individual press statements.
faint radish
I think there is a distinction between the app store being a relevant market, and "things on the iphone" being one
maybe im overthinking
pure jetty
That the app store isn't a relevant market under competition law, and pretty muc...
how did they contradict it
link
shut vine
As the app is classified as a product and the distribution of said product is done via the app store, it is a relevant market.
pure jetty
that's not what a relevant market means....
shut vine
feel free to bring up a definition, link
pure jetty
when you're talking about relevant markets, you need to make sure you take the full picture
fleet plover
Market competition is the backbone of society
pure jetty
Of course apple is going to have a natural Monopoly on their own platform
shut vine
Just like Amazon is
fleet plover
monopolies aren't bad
because they can only keep other businesses out of business by lowering prices
pure jetty
Apple has the monopoly on app store apps and the payment processors
fleet plover
making things better for the consumer
pure jetty
Just like how I have a monopoly on messages sent by jroy
fleet plover
no you dont
pure jetty
Amazon is different because Amazon doesn't invent or control commerce as a whole
They control access to Amazon
But the antitrust part from then comes with the fact that they don't allow lowering of prices elsewhere
Which affects the global product market
which IS a relevant market
shut vine
Link
shut vine
feel free to bring up a definition, link
^
fleet plover
Antitrust laws backfire
shut vine
Yeah antitrust laws are largely stupid
near glen
Lets just you know, wait what the judge says
shut vine
Sure, you're free to do that if you want
near glen
She's the one deciding if it's a relevant market or not
pure jetty
I don't know how you want me to link you something
Especially considering us antitrust law is largely broken so it's be altered by case law
shut vine
Link to a legal definition of a relevant market
pure jetty
The original anti trust law pretty much made any restraint of trade illegal period
And there isn't a clear cut definition
But multiple lawyers and analysts don't think it's a relevant market
Hell the judge hearing the case doesn't sound charitable at all
Because granting epic a full win would mean outlawing walled gardens
The justice system doesn't like to outlaw business models