Can’t really understand how that’s a protest…
#politics
faint radish
near glen
This whole situation is really fucked up and has been for basically forever
faint radish
If a country launches a rocket at you, and you intercept it, you don’t get to respond? Not really following
near glen
Israel is overstepping all the time and then acts surprised when they get a response
Like they are pushing the boundaries all the time
near glen
Oh yes it's calculated
torn wadi
Israel is just doing their routine when Pakistan attempts to protest, except this time, they weren't prepared.
near glen
In this particular case I think netanyahu just wants to play strong leader so he gets reelected
faint radish
This just isn’t true. The Iron Dome doesn’t stop everything…
near glen
I should read more into the current situation tomorrow, I only have got bits and pieces the last days since work has been draining
Well, still, it's David vs Goliath
faint radish
That would matter more if “davids” attacks weren’t essentially random rocket attacks
But were targeted at military targets.
Hamas, which rules Gaza, said it launched 130 missiles at Tel Aviv and its surroundings in response to what it said was Israel’s targeting of civilian buildings. Israel’s military said it targeted a Hamas commander who lived in a high rise.
Hamas has launched more than 600 rockets toward Israel since Monday evening, including six at Jerusalem in a first since 2014, according to Israel’s military. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu described the attack on Jerusalem as a “red line.” Israel’s military said its Iron Dome system intercepted 200 of the Hamas rockets, while 150 of them exploded inside Gaza.
near glen
Well, they are still radicals, lol
Am not saying that I support their acts
Am just saying I share some of their views on the situation down there
faint radish
You used the word “protest”. Not a word used when doing something one disagrees with.
faint radish
🤷 I wouldn’t use the word protest for an act that endangers civilian lives.
near glen
Well, am Germany after all
We riot in streets and burn cars as a form of protest 😂
It's tradition, don't question it
May day in the big German cities, mostly Hamburg and Berlin, is quite something
shy gulch
May day in the big German cities, mostly Hamburg and Berlin, is quite something
yaaaa haha
faint radish
Oh internet, thank you for the ability for people with stupid ideas to find others with those same ideas and reinforce each other’s beliefs.
https://twitter.com/iveenakhan/status/1392244921885732866?s=21
Twitter
1.2 million followers 🤷
looks like its doubtful hitler ever said that, but that, I think, is a point so secondary to the other thing here, that someone would post it
shy gulch
Are all the likes from alt right people or stupid alt left that are trying to connect being Jewish to what’s going on in Israel
faint radish
no clue
im guessing she doesnt have alt-right followers, but who knows
doesn't really matter tbh I dont think
near glen
Tweet has been deleted, embed still there
shut vine
Yet her account is yet to be suspended
faint radish
Well… you posted the screen shot. Who do you follow who has a family that tells them Roblox is getting big.
Need to unfollow them ASAP.
near glen
That's xilefian, the rendering guru at mojang, lol
He helped searge to pull thru the rendering rewrite to OpenGL 3.2 shaders
warm ibex
looks like its doubtful hitler ever said that, but that, I think, is a point so ...
yup he never said that, just another mutation of Godwin’s law
faint radish
Actually, it’s probably adapted from something the character Hitler said in Inglorious Bastards
faint radish
it is so good
near glen
Its one of the few movies where the German dubbed version is better then the OG
Der Bäärreeeeenjuddeee
warm ibex
still seems like a mutation of godwin's law
whenever someone argues something you disagree with, fabricate a hitler quote that agrees with them
for instance if they're arguing for more taxes
"we need more taxes" - hitler
argument invalidated
faint radish
42% of printers aren’t working in the inspected IRS locations because…
IRS employees stated that the only reason they could not use many of these devices is because they are out of ink or because the waste cartridge container is full.
pure jetty
clicks on logo to get to main page
https://i.imgur.com/nrmTFhc.png
faint radish
Read the actual report then.
pure jetty
im sure that site doesn't spin things /s
pure jetty
i mean i'm not saying the things they're talking about didn't happen
but what's their solution
urban vector
they indicated that the new contractor may not have been coming into the sites to replace the old printers due to COVID-19 concerns
seems like an understandable issue tbh
pure jetty
judging from than banner doesn't seem like they got many
faint radish
pure jetty
so by tax reform it sounds like they mean abolition?
sounds like all republican reform!
restive seal
Just about. These are the sort of folks who promote trickle down 💦
faint radish
> they indicated that the new contractor may not have been coming into the sites...
For broken ones sure. Although “indicated” and “may not” aren’t really good words for that. You don’t know exactly why they aren’t getting replaced?
But printers not working cause the container for waste cartridges is full?
urban vector
the bigger issue is that a non working printer can have an "especially significant effect"
printers were such a mistake
shut vine
When there are so many news sources that don't spin things to rake in the biggest pile of cash they can too /s
foggy fern
Grover Norquist decided no taxes was a good idea when he was like 10 years old, never changed his mind, and somehow managed to convince everyone else this was also a good idea
brisk cradle
42% of printers aren’t working in the inspected IRS locations because…
> IRS em...
And the solution is to lower taxes and cut IRS funding even more, which simply perpetuates the cycle?
Tech issues and the IRS are old buddies.
Cutting IRS funding is going to only make the problem worse. (Well, then again, Norquist was famous for saying that he wanted to shrink government so much that he could drown it in a bathtub, so it makes sense.)
Problem is, when you apply right-libertarian fever dreams to the real world, it doesn't really work out.
But more to the point, the problem is these federal contractors are barely held accountable for their actions. Emergent BioSolutions was probably the most recent high-profile example of that: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/us/emergent-biosolutions-anthrax-coronavirus.html
As much as the right-libertarians will hate it, I think the solution should be to nationalize certain critical industries, since the private sector has perverse incentives to do the wrong thing for more money..
Yes, I am being very explicitly socialist by saying we need to nationalize stuff - but it's clear to me that contracting out shit doesn't work.
dusky raft
contracting shit doesnt work because the government just hands out money like candy
mystic ermine
That's the issue, there is practically 0 accountability and the only time the public hears about it is when shit hits the fan and somebody leaks it
dusky raft
and I dont believe government should be involved say beyond emergencies.
mystic ermine
Imagine a private sector company having ~50% of their printers out of service
I know that the pandemic creates a lot of challenges, but, you're telling me that a large government firm is incapable of coming to some form of agreement or workaround solution?
cutting their budget is not the solution, but, I'm pretty sure that if you solved all of these stupid inefficiencies their budget could be reduced
dusky raft
I dont think absorbing private industry is a good solution, it just takes the mismanagement and shoves money down its throat
and makes it harder to remove the issue
mystic ermine
private sector has perverse incentives to do the wrong thing for more money
Is literally the only case because the public sector permits this shit to happen time and time again with 0 accountability
You let shitty firms do shitty things, run away with a wheelbarrows of cash and wonder why they're shitty
dusky raft
Its why our military spending is also huge...
we outspend everyone else and yet we dont see new military jets and weapons rolling off the line, we still rely on a mainline rifle from the 60s, a tank from the 80s, a cargo plane from the 50s
pure jetty
Italy fines Google $123M because Italy got assmad they wouldn't let an app that was unsafe for drivers be approved for Android auto
App was for some electric car charging station and makes no sense why they say google had no grounds to do it when they obviously enforce a strict review process on Android auto apps in order to not get sued by driving regulations agencies
This smells a lot like this huge Italy corporation asked them to help them out
near glen
Israel attacking palestine, azerbaijan invading armenia, why is the world on fire again?
Can't these idiots behave?
They really trying to finish what they started in 1915 now
faint radish
Eh, nobody seems to actually care. Probably nothing will happen except a lot of bluster on the international stage.
Same thing that happened when Putin took over Crimea, probably the same thing that will happen when China takes back Taiwan
Well, China takes back Taiwan, dangerous wording there, more like China completes its revolution. Taiwan think it’s the real China
faint radish
What does that mean? Doesn’t sound good
near glen
Sabotaging Nordstream2 so that we buy their shit instead of Russia's shit
There is a corruption scandal in germany right now, bunch of ppl in parliment got money from baku
faint radish
I probably wouldn’t want to buy from either of those countries, but yikes.
near glen
Haven't read, first english entry I can find
Russia is a good partner for that, we never had issues
faint radish
Btw, CDC says don’t need masks or to social distance indoors after fully vaxxed.
Getting my second shot today, cannot wait!
The fully vaccinated should continue to wear a mask while traveling by plane, bus or train, and the guidance doesn’t apply in certain places like hospitals, nursing homes and prisons, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Thursday.
The only exceptions
No plans to do anything like that in the future. Time to see if states follow the science.
pure jetty
yeah iirc there was a new study saying the vaccine does in fact considerably cut down on spreading rates
the blanket rules for crowded spaces are probably for so we don't have to verify if everyone got the vaccine if they're not wearing a mask
much easier to just require everyone to do it
foggy fern
When/if China takes Taiwan they'll take over a ruined hellscape
Things like TSMC won't exist anymore
Wow, a Tesla produces 8.85 tonnes of CO2 over its lifetime if you drive it 100k miles. Buying it with bitcoin raises that to over 500 tonnes
mystic ermine
jesus
pure jetty
yeah didn't really make sense for a green energy company to be doing
glad the stopped that
loud flax
so i was looking at this recently https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/05/a-closer-look-at-the-darkside-ransomware-gang/
and there's this part of the article
The victim complains that negotiations haven’t moved the price much, but DarkSide countered that the company can easily afford the payout. “I don’t think so,” they wrote. “You aren’t poor and aren’t children if you f*cked up you have to meet the consequences.”
that last part here
pretty dull minded tbh, arrogant
near glen
They got what they wanted tho
So it's clearly working
If you are so dum to get infected with ransomware, you gotta pay up or rebuild
loud flax
well at that point your security needs to be improved, so in a sense something good came out of it, not so much to say what happened was good
but yes, it does require some action on the receiver's part to become the victim, so... at that point it just becomes necessary to be more educated on exactly how to avoid things like this in the future
near glen
It's not about security as much as just normal IT sanity
shut vine
The only real way for a company to ensure they don't get hit hard by ransomware s regular backups with an air gap.
drifting arch
🤡
broken raven
'murica
tough cedar
Oh, hooray I guess
Still gonna wear mine when going out so people don't have to worry if I'm some antimasker or not though
foggy fern
When I was grocery shopping on Wednesday more than half the people in the store didn't have masks on
A month ago it was like 10%
tough cedar
It's been a few weeks since I last went, but most everyone in there was wearing their masks
Prob many more unmasked people now with that news though
foggy fern
Yeah, now I'll probably go without too, unless I'm feeling sick
Going to try to do that anyway, wear a mask when I feel like I've got a cold
tough cedar
I think I'll start doing that if i ever go out in public with a cold
anytime in the future, even beyond the pandemic
pure jetty
im gonna keep wearing masks personally for a few more weeks
I don't think we've reached the social tipping point where not wearing masks are comfortable yet
at least where I live
warm ibex
same
foggy fern
faint radish
What happened to their plans for attack moderation 😛
tough cedar
they're just taking them further and not ransoming anyone now!
foggy fern
New details from within Colonial Pipeline have come to light surrounding the decision to shut off supply. Those briefed on the matter have suggested that fuel flows were shut down due to the company's billing system being compromised. Company officials were reportedly concerned that they would not be able to accurately bill customers for fuel delivered, and chose to stop delivery instead.
So the pipeline was fine and there was no risk to leave it running
They just didn't want to risk losing money from not having accurate billing
mystic ermine
I mean, it's the one thing I'd love to see from this pandemic is greater awareness to illnesses, but, it's caveated as you don't wanna be sheltered from too many germs
But, I hope that we get to a point where it becomes more of a norm to stay home if you're ill, especially now that companies have magically proven that, hey, you actually can work from home!
pure jetty
I mean he's generally not wrong about the far left
but saikat wasn't stating anything far left
lmfao
so it seems like this guy is just trying to pick a fight for the sake of it
faint radish
Welcome to Twitter
pure jetty
Paul
near glen
Not really, no
pure jetty
hackernews guy ah
near glen
He's co-founder of ycombinator sold some startup to yahoo, shit like that
Nowadays he just shit posts on his blog and on Twitter
Recently he announced a new product that would run chrome in the cloud and stream it to your chrome
mystic ermine
I mean, it's a wider issue, imho, especially with how divided we're getting
near glen
And got mad when ppl made fun of him
mystic ermine
But, I got no idea what that person has said to make him be thrown out
near glen
Do I even wanna know?
If you manage to throw of half of apple, I don't think I wanna know who you are and what you said
Kek I already regret it
Guy wrote a book, dedicated it to all his enemies, that alone should be a red flag
Then there's this
"One screenshot from the book that has been circulating on Twitter calls women in the Bay area “soft and weak, cosseted and naive despite their claims of worldliness, and generally full of shit.”"
Ppl at apple didn't want him thrown out, they raised concern how he could have been hired in the first place, given that apple officially commits to diversity
faint radish
The next sentence was praise about a woman wasn’t it?
near glen
"Most women in the Bay Area are soft and weak, cosseted and naive despite their claims of worldliness, and generally full of shit. They have their self-regarding entitlement feminism, and ceaselessly vaunt their independence, but the reality is, come the epidemic plague or foreign invasion, they’d become precisely the sort of useless baggage you’d trade for a box of shotgun shells or a jerry can of diesel."
More of that quote
Not a praise in the next sentence ^^
faint radish
Yeah, and right after he compares the toughest woman he met to them
near glen
Thats the same as, am not racist, my cousins daughter is black
faint radish
Do all women live in the Bay Area
near glen
Does that make it any better?
faint radish
Also, he said most women, that’s not all women
Well, for starters, it makes it wayyy better than all women, which is what you said he said
British Trader, on the other hand, was the sort of woman who would end up a useful ally in that postapocalypse, doing whatever work—be it carpentry, animal husbandry, or a shotgun blast to someone’s back—required doing.
That’s what follows his description of most Bay Area women
pure jetty
i mean at the end of the day what are you gonna do
ignore all the apple employees?
so you lose multiple employees vs just one
regardless of what you think about what he did, people didn't want to work with him
near glen
Well, the issue they brought up was: how can such a person get hired, if he clearly doesn't agree with the ideals apple stands for, and looks for in employees
faint radish
Why does he clearly not agree with the ideals? He is comparing the woman he loves to all other women, something that’s done all the time. Yes, all other women are less than the women you love, that’s not new, or frowned upon.
It’s not a statement about women, it’s a comparison
But people isolate half of it, and say that’s it.
near glen
You just read how he speaks about his coworkers, right?
faint radish
That part about women isn’t about his coworkers
near glen
Because apple doesn't employee woman from the bay area?
faint radish
Because again, it’s not about women from the Bay Area, it’s a comparison to the woman he loves
pure jetty
iirc the book was written in 2016, no?
has he walked back his claims or re enforced them nowadays?
faint radish
It was def before he was hired
shut vine
A person such as what they are alleging about him got hired because Apple's ideals are just a front, obviously
foggy fern
They had a music festival as a medical experiment, to see how many people would get sick from it
urban vector
Yeah they had a few events actually - a football match and something for poshos too
mystic ermine
Yea, there's been a few events here in liverpool, had some business event thing too
faint radish
Well… China should know if they landed their rover successfully or not as of like 35 mins ago
Of course, no one else knows
shy gulch
I got two push notifications, apparently they did!
near glen
Wooo!
near glen
Apple handed over data from sci hub founder to the FBI
Now you may ask why
Shit, we need to make up a bullshit reason, what about national security? The Russians? That sounds good, right?
In December 2019, the Washington Post reported that Elbakyan was being investigated by the US Justice Department on suspicion that she “may” be working with Russian intelligence to “steal U.S. military secrets from defense contractors.”
cursive rose
wtf, scihub is invaluable to students
near glen
no? its uuhm, a threat to national security!
faint radish
Probably not a smart PR move. Note that they gave an hour evac warning, so it’s not like they killed a bunch of people
near glen
Well still, you don't just attack journalists like that, it's not a bad PR move, it's generally considered a war crime
Even if nobody hurt, they destroyed the infrastructure the journalists use
faint radish
No such thing as “generally considered” for war crimes. It is, or it isn’t. Like shooting at a medic if they have not taken up arms themselves.
Does the Geneva convention say anything about journalists?
Is there any war crime that doesn’t involve actually killing someone?
pure jetty
i mean they're not doing it because they are journalists
near glen
You sure?
pure jetty
do you not know what's going on in gaza?
near glen
I do know what's going on there
I also know that those offices provided shelters
But that makes bombing them even dumber, since they evacuated
pure jetty
you understand that Israel were the ones that warned them, right?
near glen
Yes, of course, lol
pure jetty
But that makes bombing them even dumber, since they evacuated
so what do you mean by that
near glen
Who else could other than the attacker
If their goal was to kill sheltered enemies, that goal is unreachable if they tell them to evacuate
pure jetty
they raided it before hand
was probably more about removing the ability for a shelter to exist there
near glen
And coincidentally the ability to provide news coverage of this war
pure jetty
who knows
faint radish
Well, I just think that flat out isn’t true. You think slowing down two news outlets stops news coverage?
There’s like a zillion cameras all over the place
near glen
It's the place everybody used, lol
faint radish
I only saw that it was 2 places lol
Al Jazeera and the AP
…I wonder how it’s possible the AP could report on this if it was destroyed.
Huh, no idea.
Point being, if this was an attempt to silence media, I think they’d have done a better job. Or any job
near glen
How can you not see that leveling a journalism office is a really bad sign, lol
faint radish
Cause I don’t know why they did it. How can you jump to conclusions, lol
pure jetty
again, the primary reason it was bombed was because they were housing Hamas, the same group who have fired hundreds of rockets into Israel and the Gaza Strip, killing hundreds of people
faint radish
This is scary stuff
Forty-one percent of Democrats and 28% of Republicans answered that half or more of those infected by COVID-19 need to be hospitalized.
Real answer is between 1 and 5%
How few people, really in both parties, know actually how likely you are to be hospitalized if you get COVID
And you know, this really explains a lot when you look at party differences, if your understanding is, that COVID is a much more harmful virus than it currently is, you would absolutely take extra precautions, be more wary about taking masks off, all sorts of things
pure jetty
not a bad problem to have
depends on how the question is asked and scares more people to get the vaccine
overall positive
faint radish
What percentage of people who have been infected by the coronavirus needed to be hospitalized?
Scaring people into getting the vaccine? Not a great plan I don’t think.
pure jetty
i think its worked incredibly well in the US, 1/3 of the US is fully vaccinated
urban vector
The full study is very interesting and ends up concluding that both scaremongering and trivialisation lead to reduced support for "optimal" policies https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-misinformation-is-distorting-covid-policies-and-behaviors/?amp
They also state that the figures they use for hospitalisation rate are "certainly an undercount" due to a lack of availability for the figures
faint radish
I agree, both sides lead to policies that either do not do enough, or overreach both of which are harmful.
urban vector
I mean that's not really what the article shows
faint radish
i think its worked incredibly well in the US, 1/3 of the US is fully vaccinated
I know I certainly didn’t get the vaccine because I am scared.
urban vector
The study also shows that people dramatically underestimate death rates in older people
faint radish
Yes that’s exactly it. There should be a goal to have an accurately informed populous, not one either thinking it’s worse than it is, or it’s not as bad as it actually is.
And the line of thinking that is, well if people think it’s worse than it is, they’ll get the vaccine faster, is the same line of thinking, I know better than others, so I’m going to try and manipulate them into doing the right thing.
When the right thing is already to get the vaccine
The government tried something similar with the whole mask thing, trying to say don’t get masks, don’t need masks to try and protect their stockpiles for those who they thought did need them.
urban vector
I can't really imagine fear mongering or a lack of information would impact vaccine uptake dramatically tbf - would be interesting to see any studies on it
faint radish
A lack of any information, or a lack of accurate information
near glen
There is a lack of information? All the data is available for everyone, right?
faint radish
I think Kezz is talking from a person’s perspective. They might have a lack of correct information either cause they haven’t looked, or looked in the wrong places
urban vector
Well data being available doesn't mean people know where to find it or have time to digest it
faint radish
About the media building blowing up… I was just reminding about another law of war. If a civilian building is used for military purposes, it’s a totally valid target. For example, not supposed to destroy hospitals, but if the military houses ammunition in the hospital, it’s a valid target.
So if the building was sheltering hamas fighters, it’s a valid target.
Still looks very bad ofc, but it’s not some grave war crime or smth
urban vector
I mean, going with your previous point - there are no truly accepted or standardised "rules of war"
Also, big "if"
faint radish
Oh for sure it’s an if, and yeah, the whole “rules of war” thing has always seemed strange to me.
The closest there is, is the Geneva convention
urban vector
Yeah definitely - stuff should be judged by moral codes on a case-by-case basis not some arbitrary "laws" that were decided years ago by unrelated parties
faint radish
Well, war crimes are pretty much always adjudicated by the winner. Not a whole lot of impartiality there.
And there isn’t an enforcement body that’s above a nation either
urban vector
Yeah absolutely - we saw that shit pretty clear in the aftermath of WW2 when the allies pretty much decimated Austria and other varying countries with no real care for the innocent parties
faint radish
The Hague’s rulings are enforceable by the UN Security Council, but all the big players have a veto on the UN Security Council so really, war crimes, in the bureaucratic sense, are just PR problems.
Most of the people who commit actual war crimes just end up dead themselves, or in some prison somewhere
pure jetty
thanks
faint radish
that's why Communism is the answer
that's what I say to the police every time I'm arrested... idk why they wont listen
urban vector
it's shitposting, but nothing oskar said was inherently wrong
pure jetty
this channel is supposed to be mostly serious
shitposting in here is unhelpful
and since this is where politics are, and you can't shitpost here, political shitposting isn't for this server
near glen
The Hague’s rulings are enforceable by the UN Security Council, but all the big ...
I swear, vetos are the dummmest thing ever
faint radish
Well they ensure nothing happens. No country would agree to be in it if there weren’t vetos.
The security council is really the only do-something part of the UN, and anyone on it can veto
Same with NATO
So the UN General Assembly passes resolutions in support of, or denouncing or smth like that, essentially meaningless
Don’t think general assembly has the any country veto thing, but they have wayyyy less power
near glen
There's some thing where only the big ones plus rotating seats have veto iirc, is that the GA?
faint radish
That’s the security council
There are permanent members (the usual suspects), and rotating ones
near glen
Oh right it doesn't contain all countries, I remember
faint radish
Anyone currently on the security council can veto
Yeah, def not. It’s only the big guys, and a couple random other ones that rotate out.
Any country can be on it, just a few are always on it
plush crypt
near glen
Where has capitalism worked?
What kinda question is that?
Both are extremes that should be avoided, you need a balance
urban vector
You could easily argue it isn't working
Well firstly north korea isn't socialist
and secondly it's not a fair comparison as there are plenty of external and additional factors
near glen
China is as capitalist as the US? 😂
And Germany as capitalist as the US? If an American would see the laws Merkel passed she would be considered a socialist by American standards 😂
Again, it's a range, there are extremes and there are multiple in betweens
Fyi, china calls their system "socialist market economy"
They have state owned enterprises?
Idk, Sheldon Cooper should be smarter than this, even as a troll
What has GDP Todo with the system?
Stop thinking in extremes and black and white, that will get you nowhere
urban vector
socialism is when farms
urban vector
lmao
restive seal
They're trying to suggest that somehow it's china going more capitalistic that changed the way the world does agriculture.
Unfortunately after the "I'm a stalinist! Purges were great!" guy, this troll isn't all prize-winning.
near glen
With enough passion you could create an equally high count
For capitalism
Again, stop thinking in extremes, that's dum
near glen
Why are all these communism = bad trolls so low effort? It's honestly just boring
urban vector
source? me
plush crypt
795M people are chronically undernourished in what's a majority capitalist world
Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, The State of Food
Insecurity in the World, 2015, http://www.fao.org/3/a-i4646e.pdf
oblique flint
urban vector
ive got proof capitalism killed more
near glen
How many ppl got killed by pollution that was caused by excessive capitalism?
weak wolf
near glen
To just name one example
near glen
Fun fact: 2018 9m ppl died to air pollution
Idk, this discussion is pointless, as I said, both are extremes and should be avoided, as with most things in life, finding a compromise in the middle is important
urban vector
have academics stopped making articles and started doing videos of random screenshots?
plush crypt
?ban @shy gulch At least wait more than an hour before going straight to politics to troll next time. Bye bye.
feral hearthBOT
:raised_hands: Banned Sheldon Cooper#0640 (At least wait more than an hour before going straight to politics to troll next time. Bye bye.) [1 total infraction] -- Proximyst#6900.
plush crypt
don't know why tall bother
near glen
Pff wait to ruin the fun
urban vector
it's funnn
tardy oar
oh cmon
plush crypt
tardy oar
proxi the party pooper
near glen
I love it when they start saying Hitler was socialist
weak wolf
oh shit we're playing this game uhhhhhhhhhhhh oh fuck
Establishment
society
Landslide
Filibuster
Welfare state
near glen
That's where the fun begins
plush crypt
I have to keep up appearances, Duck
warm ibex
🍿
tardy oar
this server disappoints me more and more every day
urban vector
haha im glad you liked them
plush crypt
I am a certified party pooper after all
weak wolf
I expect nothing from this server and the bar still manages to get set lower
urban vector
same lmao
tardy oar
same
weak wolf
urban vector
truly desperate
warm ibex
It fits better with my browser
plush crypt
Light mode is pog mode
tardy oar
it's blinding
warm ibex
there
oblique flint
wonder who it is lol
plush crypt
100% of people who have seen darkness have in fact died
tardy oar
100% of people who have talked with proxi will die
dusky raft
China's capitalism is an odd setup. Its more or less divided their country into economic zones, and business owners have to toe the communist party line... Now where did I see that before in history books?
tardy oar
also studies have shown that 100% of people who had a drink of water have died eventually
dusky raft
@tardy oar https://liquiddeath.com/
tardy oar
interesting
near glen
Why didn't I get one? 😭
keen swift
How to be politically correct
Hitler was socialist
Soviets were fascist
Communism has a dictator
Absolutely nothing politically incorrect
pure jetty
what the fuck happened here
faint radish
yeah...
mystic ermine
as somebody who came from a "welfare state" family, fuuuuck welfare states
my parents where basically what's referred to as "dole dossers", my father signed on because he couldn't keep a job because god forbid he did anything bar sleep on the sofa all day and smoke bud, my mother kept signing on for years though the act of having children, once that hatch saled she had another child, it's a PITA because minimum wage over here was never designed as a "feed a 4 kid household", like, single person, stretch, but, is fine, and many programs in place to help people gain skills needed to career up, just, because she was on so many benefits though having children, low income, 0 skills as she flunked school as she got pregnant with me, pretty much any job she'd take would be a reduction in incomings, thus, stuck in the ever joyous cycle of signing on and all that
shut vine
There's a saying by a politician in Australia, people need a leg up, not a hand out.
mystic ermine
100%
shut vine
Socrates and Plato warned against things like this, specifically regarding the pitfall of democracy being demagogues, the snake oil salesmen who say you can have this yummy sweet and all of your medical issues will go away. vs the doctor who tells you the path to recovery and health is going to be painful and long.
mystic ermine
Don't get me wrong, I believe in there being safety nets and mechanisms to help those in need, we're a society with great wealth so there is 0 need for people to be homeless or starving assuming that they're willing to take the help, and UBI will eventually become a necessity as society progresses, I mean, 3d printed houses will be here soon™, but, for now, there are many skilled or semi-skilled industries constantly crying about a labour shortage, the issue is that many lower skilled jobs are not designed to be a career unless you wanna progress into management, which often requires you to have stuff like a business degree to stand out in the demand for those roles, but, society needs to provide means to help people get the skills to level up, over in the UK uni is basically free, don't pay a single penny until you're earning so much, and yet people don't really see the strive to level up
shut vine
Yep, the leg up idea contains within it a safety net, even though the analogy is lacking in that explanation. Basically the intent was to communicate that you want spend a vast majority of the money enabling people to be self reliant.
dusky raft
the issue becomes that money corrupts government. Given enough time, politicians have no incentive to improve the system or in a timely fashion. There should be a safety net that protects people from falling straight into poverty, but the system we have in place seems to promote it instead.
mystic ermine
My mate has Hidradenitis suppurativa, it's basically a chronic skin diseases in which she was getting abcesses and boils, even had a skin graft at one point because one of her wounds under her arm wasn't healing properly, she had a meeting in order to get some support
Issue is that the government hires a 3rd party org for doing those meetings
She failed to get the support she needed, some of which would of helped with adoptations to the flat we where in so that she could shower on her own without her mate having to help her, she failed because she put on a scarf, painfully
dusky raft
the problem sounds like the government went with the cheapest 3rd party and said party has no incentive to improve as they get a steady flow of cash in
mystic ermine
I mean, it's just another person who tried to get support and the status of being medically disabled who wasn't qualified for it, success!
dusky raft
nevermind it may take awhile before repercussions hit? so why not take as much from the government as possible?
mystic ermine
Who cares if the odd person here or there dies
it's why even though we'll defend our NHS to the death, we dislike it heavily
It's just nice knowing you won't be bankrupted medical bill wise if something happens
dusky raft
but you could suffer and or die due to the fact that you may wait a long time for a certain treatment.
mystic ermine
mental health waiting lists are on the order of months, optimistically, and years for some
many times the MH services are also age gapped too
dusky raft
Its also why I dont think government should have a monopoly on healthcare. They should have a monopoly on certifying professionals, but not on the healthcare itself.
mystic ermine
One of the annoyances is that the NHS staffs wage is basically determined by the government, who believe that austerity measures are basically the best measures
shut vine
I think me and Cat mostly agreed that the current systems promote it btw.
dusky raft
nevermind you can have a government with a radically different philosophy within the next 5 years.
mystic ermine
NHS is basically haemorrhaging through staff, they gov cut some of the grants which made the years of student hell that the NHS required worth it and sustainable to many, and then cut off foreigners pretty much
it's moronic
I mean, over in the UK we have one party who is somehow electable, another party who is unelectable but keeps tryna fight it but loves to piss off their core voter base, and then a few other parties who don't get all too much on the basis of "if you're voting for them, you're basically just voting for Y"/"Now's not the time to go 3rd party, we gotta beat the Y, next election!"
So, thankfully, we don't got the setup that the US has, but, eeer...
dusky raft
medicaid/medicare are expensive to maintain, considering they take a good chunk of the spending budget
mystic ermine
UK just arranges for cheap drugs/generics
dusky raft
which gets tacked on to americans
mystic ermine
It helps keeps cost down which is good, especially as the NHS actually has a budget which they gotta negotate on, otherwise it just doesn't happen
But, yea, headache is that a lot of the research happens in like the US and switzerland, I believe
Pretty sure they started pumping a ton of cash into research over the past 10 years or something
dusky raft
quite a bit of R&D happens in europe, but there are far more trials and less hurdles to jump in the US when it comes to promoting something in the healthcare
mystic ermine
dusky raft
considering experimental treatments, americans can go through with them if their insurance permits.
also, I believe we still pay into medicare when eligible
mystic ermine
stuff like medicare is always fun because I get the merit of protecting those in a hard place, but, a lot of the promises behind it where blatently flawed
dusky raft
actually, its medicaid that can be completely free
mystic ermine
issue is more the act behind it
Like, I was in a LDR with somebody in the states and basically her mother ended up getting her hours cut when that passed and had to pick up another job, and they ended up having to move out of their current place into something cheaper
dusky raft
how much does the UK invest into the NHS?
dusky raft
and essentially everyone is entitled to healthcare?
mystic ermine
Yup
You have to pay like a surcharge for prescriptions unless you're on benefits or have a long term illness, basically
dusky raft
ok, while the US doesnt have a direct comparison, we dump $600 billion into medicaid that has roughly 10% more users than the population of the UK.
thats only one part
medicare blows through $766 billion from what appears to be 52 million users.
mystic ermine
Issue with the US that many people have is that it doesn't really solve the issue of expensive health care induced by corporate shadiness and greed, it just promotes with with a free money pot which just means that the rich gets richer, off the backs of tax payers
dusky raft
making just medicaid available for everyone regardless, we should fix regulations on how companies (insurance, hospitals, etc) charge for their services.
healthcare is really allowed to hide the cost of service till said service is complete
mystic ermine
it's part of why I'd love for there to be like some global NHS type thing, issue is that how do you keep it from becoming yet another government agency
dusky raft
I think insurance should be more like a credit card, not as a middleman
actually, the US has something very similar, but not in the way of current insurances
pure jetty
The universal credit card thing doesn't make sense because they would not have any bargaining power
There's no problem with a properly planned medicare system
Where the government becomes an insurance company for those who can't afford actual insurance (or doesn't get it through their employer)
This would also be loads more cheaper
And more politically viable
shut vine
I think a system like that could work provided there was a public tender process which considered new tenders for individual drugs, medical devices, or other services on a cycle like every 2 or 4 years.
mystic ermine
I can't wait
shut vine
The tender responses would be made public once the tender closes.
Thus companies would have to make their best offer first.
mystic ermine
in 20, 30 years, when all the old dodgers in our governments are rolling around 6ft under, maybe there'll be change for good one day
faint radish
“The center”, that’s so 2014. Gotta pick a side and blindly follow everyone else on your side
mystic ermine
If I go far right do i get a free tin foil hat?
pure jetty
there isn't a real majority of one side here anyway
keen swift
I feel like everyone now adays are extremists on a side
pure jetty
if you're on twitter all day sure
dusky raft
@pure jetty what bargaining power do we have anyways being fucked over by both hospitals and insurance companies?
and if your out of network, your SOL
pure jetty
<@!194473148161327104> what bargaining power do we have anyways being fucked ove...
i was talking about insurance bargaining power, which current medicare is forbidden from doing so
if you have government provided health care you can't get fucked over
well
compared to none at all
mystic ermine
I mean, most people in here seem to be sane, we get the odd right troll and odd lefty "THE RIGHT ARE EVIL" type bs once in a while, but, generally it's chill
dusky raft
medicaid, its free*, medicare, by an opt-out basis your bent over
pure jetty
that's a great sentence i have no idea what you're talking about
mystic ermine
I think right vs left is stupid anyways and it's a ploy to make us fight one another vs looking at where the real issue comes from
dusky raft
medicare isnt fully free
mystic ermine
downfall is is that if you look at the social/cultural divide right now, they're winning
pure jetty
the current system has a lot wrong with it
mystic ermine
and we're sitting here fighting one another and burning down our own streets rather than actually going against the real people in control of this mess
keen swift
Thanks to Facebook and Twitter
mystic ermine
as I say, I don't condone violence, but, I mean, I really get why guy fawkes was going for
dusky raft
oh it does, we have two completely seperate programs for public government healthcare nevermind an industry that price gouges because everyone has a different price tag from procedure to insurance premium
mystic ermine
what's fun is when you hear the stories of people getting the bill as they're leaving hospital, "Oh, I can't afford that, what do I do", "oh, just give us your insurance info, they'll deal with it", "but, I don't have insurance", "oh, that's the insurance price, one second", bill magically reduce by a x/100
pure jetty
i don't care about what other insurance companies are doing
i care about if people can get healthcare
mystic ermine
Issue with a government option is that a government option needs to actually use its leverage to prevent it from just being yet another magical money pot for the rich topped up by the poor
dusky raft
We do get healthcare, only then after are we bent over and forced to take the price
keen swift
Or how with canada health care is free, which causes a massive line
mystic ermine
I don't think many options really offer that, hence why many people tend to be against it, especially when you start threatening it
Issue with canada/UK is that there is 0 competention to services
dusky raft
hospitals emergency care in the US are pretty much mandated to take anyone in if they have a medical problem, regardless if they can pay or not.
mystic ermine
The fact that there is 0 competition means that services are often deployed in an area based manner where the # of people in an area is queried like every decade and any decision to deploy new services takes like 8 years past all the paperwork
So, yea, they do try in some cases to help resolve the issue, we've got a new hospital practically down the road being built
keen swift
That depends where you live
pure jetty
We do get healthcare, only then after are we bent over and forced to take the pr...
who cares about the price if an insurance of sorts pays it, when the united states is allowed to use its leverage, they can adjust them as such
shut vine
I think there is a fairly good representation of traditionally right ideas and left ideas here. Most people are generally pretty balanced though and consider ideas based on merit rather than their traditional political placement.
mystic ermine
Issue is that it only years over due, and by the time that the services are actually in action, we'll be tryna look towards upscaling to taking care of the current population right now which will be delivered in another 8-10 years
shut vine
There are trolls occasionally. There are some with more extreme views, though it's only one or two people.
mystic ermine
whereas when medical services are derived by competition, if there is space in the market, a company will rise, issue is that if you have two firms which have 0 money in the kit you could see two firms drop at once, which could leave a hole in the market
keen swift
Extreme views as The people who say ""5GHz is spreading covid"?
mystic ermine
More the, "anybody who liked trump is literally everything wrong with the world" type people
dusky raft
when the US is allowed to leverage? good luck, the US has a great track record at mandating prices
pure jetty
Extreme views as The people who say ""5GHz is spreading covid"?
i mean that's more a conspiracy theory
pure jetty
when the US is allowed to leverage? good luck, the US has a great track record a...
?, why do you think insurance companies have leverage?
shut vine
Generally it falls into categories of people simplifying an entire area of politics and thinking there is only a single ideological solution to the issue.
mystic ermine
I think most of the right wing extremes are more generally trolls which get booted out fairly fast
dusky raft
@pure jetty ? did you mean private or public?
keen swift
people who think they know everything and get everything from Fox
mystic ermine
who cares about the price if an insurance of sorts pays it
Where do you think that money comes from, however?
dusky raft
I was talking about the track record of the US government, federal, state and local.
mystic ermine
if prices of care rise, so do your renewal and premiums
pure jetty
<@!194473148161327104> ? did you mean private or public?
private, medicare cannot use leverage of any kind at the moment due to republicans
mystic ermine
for gov run, the rise comes in form of taxes or cuts to services elsewhere
pure jetty
i know how a government is funded yes
the government would have a shit ton of leverage in this situation
insurance companies can survive, so can the US
mystic ermine
Yea, but how many politicians are in big pharmas pockets?
dusky raft
or not, given you just blamed a party for limiting an agency from leveraging prices
pure jetty
or not, given you just blamed a party for limiting an agency from leveraging pri...
negotiations for passing ACA limited leverage power
negotiations from republicans
mystic ermine
I mean, at least for me, my biggest fear is that a US program turns into a money pot for the rich, meanwhile services still get scalped to all shit
I mean, in part, maybe I'm overly pessemistic about the capacity of government, but, I mean, their track record for fucking deals up...
pure jetty
money pot for the rich?
dusky raft
oh yeah, the rich love taking from the government
its not new
its how we build new stadiums
pure jetty
why would you be giving the rich healthcare
shut vine
Governments historically are bad at spending money efficiently. Unless the process involved in spending heavily incentives politicians to spend it wisely it will likely not work out cheaper.
keen swift
They are the government
mystic ermine
would the US create its own health care presence or would it pay the bills for existing providers of which there is a generally inflated cost?
pure jetty
because they could lower those costs with leverage
how do you think private insurance companies work
mystic ermine
by fucking over payees
shut vine
One solution to that process it making it heavily publicized and transparent. So the public image if they waste the money is negative potentially negative.
pure jetty
yeah im fine with that
mystic ermine
When you come out of a place with the bill, the cost is often over inflated to all shit
pure jetty
insurance doesn't pay those costs 99.9% of the time
shut vine
Making the tender insanely competitive is also a very good solution.
mystic ermine
what you pay as an insurance user is often based upon that figure
then your insurance provider gets a deal on the costs which you do not see
pure jetty
right
why wouldn't the federal government be able to get a deal of the same kind (which would probably be one of the biggest insurers)
keen swift
like how one persons operation can cost 5$, but the next can push them to debt
mystic ermine
So, you get fucked over as your premiums and deductables are based on that figure that you left the hospital with
pure jetty
im sure we could pass legislation on that
dusky raft
government doesnt have an incentive to keep prices cheap
pure jetty
government doesnt have an incentive to keep prices cheap
man if this isn't the dumbest sentence i've heard all day
why do you think the government would want to incur costs on itself
dusky raft
no really, we should be curtailing military spending if that was the case, along with all the pointless projects the US government funds
pure jetty
ah yes the "just cut the military spending" line
mystic ermine
Issue is that it's not entirely government itself
shut vine
I don't think the issue is they want to incur costs, it's just that they can very easily just handball those costs to citizens.
mystic ermine
it's politicians who magicestically pick up donations from the very industries they're supposed to be regulating
Take spacex vs boeing
keen swift
when the government incurs costs, it just shows up in your taxes or budget cuts
dusky raft
I mean we spend billions on certain military projects that have gone nowhere, and we continue to fund it. Its why I dont think the government has the power to stop companies from price gouging the healthcare industry
I can also say the same with college debt
mystic ermine
SpaceX has been recovering its boosted for many years now, something which boeing won't, because they don't get paid to make the boosters land, they get paid to deliver a rocket, and a full rocket costs a whole lot more
pure jetty
do you think that all projects must be successful to justify their spending?
and college debt is something totally different
dusky raft
prices went up because we continued to federally fund colleges.
mystic ermine
No, as a world, shits gonna break, new research will hit a brick wall, etc
doesn't mean that you don't try
shut vine
I think he was eluding to the fact it's relatively common in these government programs.
mystic ermine
Issue is that many critical projects which could do greater good for the world are highly underfunded and many which mean jack shit are given cash anyways
dusky raft
yes, its common for the federal government to suck up the price increase and put it on the tax payer or loan holder.
keen swift
its like any projects that can greatly improve us gets thrown away because the politicians get lobbied to stop it
dusky raft
its not just lobbyists, its the politicians themselves
shut vine
A cyclical tender process which is relatively transparent and public after submissions end, would be a decent incentive for governments to pick economical companies to go with and would give incentive to companies to be economical or lose the contract.
dusky raft
quite a lot of them are in it just for themselves.
keen swift
the rich get richer
shut vine
If you couple that with deregulating some areas to increase competition, it would likely work out relatively cheap in time.
mystic ermine
Take tesla
tesla got government grants and where slated to all shit for it
they paid back those grants, with interest, and yet many people still think it's BS that tesla got grants
pure jetty
yes, its common for the federal government to suck up the price increase and put...
almost like we could tax a group of people who have gotten record tax breaks within the past 4 years 😮
mystic ermine
meanwhile, pretty sure tesla where a big push in the "yes we can" and started a huge push towards EVs, something we've been screaming for for years
keen swift
Or like how does Google and Amazon get massive tax cuts
mystic ermine
you can only tax the rich so much before their money runs out, however
foggy fern
What Amazon and Google do is tax avoidance, that's something different
mystic ermine
I think I was reading that you could actually lower taxes and still pull in a good chunk more cash if you closed up all the loop holes
shut vine
Apple can be grouped with those too.
foggy fern
They find or lobby to create loopholes in the system that make it possible to cut their effective tax rate down, they aren't getting outright tax cuts
Yeah, all companies pulling in more than a billion dollars do this stuff
pure jetty
can't forget apple
keen swift
they some how get out of paying taxes, and we have to pick up there slack
pure jetty
don't they have the biggest off shore bank account?
shut vine
Yeah I'd just say Apple is likely the most egregious offender in this area.
foggy fern
iirc GE regularly gets money from the IRS
mystic ermine
sounds about right
foggy fern
Not that they paid too much and got some back, I mean a negative effective tax rate
mystic ermine
and the best part of it all is that these companies often take steps to prevent new companies doing stuff in the market in a cost effective way
shut vine
Many of the GE/Amazon issues revolve around them investing into the economy and getting federal tax incentives for doing so, unless I'm mistaken.
mystic ermine
e.g. pretty sure GE are one of the players who made it so that car manfs can't sell cars to consumers in some states
foggy fern
That would be GM, no?
shut vine
That seemed like a personal attack, isn't that a ZTI? runs
mystic ermine
And, yea, companies basically bid with amazon/GE and other large cos to set up new places in their place
I mean, states, basically bid*
amazon generally hire a metric fuckton of staffers and invest in the region in order to get the breaks and such
it's good for the city as they get high paying jobs which helps boost their metrics and funding from others, in a way that they see as basically free
foggy fern
iirc Amazon ended up doing their big expansion in NYC even after they lost their tax credit for doing so
So a lot of the time they're getting money for nothing too
shut vine
On what basis are they getting it for nothing?
mystic ermine
because they're already looking for office space
they're already looking for a pool of people to be able to pick out from
the place which is more attractive to google and co are often the states who have the higher tax income and such and so have more of a capacity to basically hand out free cash to these corps
foggy fern
If they're going to build in a place anyway because the economics make sense then giving them tax credits is just free money
You give tax credits to encourage business somewhere they otherwise wouldn't consider, to tip the economics of it
shut vine
I see. So if a family is going to have a child anyway, even without a tax credit, they shouldn't get it?
foggy fern
Tax credits for kids are just a weird partial UBI system
mystic ermine
if they don't need the tax credit, does it matter?
pure jetty
tax credits for kids is a leftover for social security cards i thought?
mystic ermine
Like, that's just backwards thinking, that's an individual vs a company already literally rolling in more cash then they need
foggy fern
It's easier to sell the idea of welfare checks if it's the IRS handing them out and you can pretend it's just a tax refund
pure jetty
and generally because having kids = money you're going to have to spend to raise that kid
shut vine
I don't think it's about need particularly. The tax credit is to give incentive to things that benefit the economy.
keen swift
Well whos gonna pick up the tax that there not paying
shut vine
Regardless if they do it or not, if they do more of it because of a tax credit in the past since they have more money to do that, and it is indeed beneficial to the economy (i.e. net positive), that's a good scheme.
mystic ermine
a parent is completently different to a org with more cash than it will ever need
I mean, for me, it's more the irony of it all
keen swift
but still, how are they going to pay for that program, besides taxing non parents
mystic ermine
the politicians screaming that the rich and corporations need to pay their fair share are often the ones who are handing out tax incentives to these companies
keen swift
Its a great idea tho
mystic ermine
and, yea, I get it, if you wanna attract the mega-corps, dangling free cash they don't need is always a nice insentive to them, especially if that cash saving can go into the pockets of lobbyists...
shut vine
I mean, most people discount the additional jobs created.
foggy fern
Well, yeah, you can view it as a transfer of wealth from non-parents to parents in order to ensure there is a country 40 years from now since after the industrial revolution kids went from an economic benefit to an economic detriment
shut vine
I do think it's a very difficult thing to measure accurately though.
foggy fern
But really it's just welfare in a more palatable package
dusky raft
the problem is when a company fails to deliver job growth they claimed they will do
foggy fern
Sorry, was to ztm
keen swift
It can work, but im saying it should come from these big corps instead of non parents
pure jetty
the problem is when a company fails to deliver job growth they claimed they will...
the pfizer connecticut offices come to mind
lmfao
dusky raft
sure, we will build this facility in <insert town/city name> here. we will create thousands of jobs no problem. give us money
shut vine
Yeah I'm not a fan of grants.
dusky raft
must be the generic sentence that companies use to get money from the government
mystic ermine
Thing is that these big corps offer jobs but those jobs come from people who often are already doing fairly well in smaller companies or people hopping across state lines for jobs
dusky raft
lol
foggy fern
The... optimism... of those jobs estimates are always kind of hilarious
dusky raft
shut vine
I'd also be for making the tax incentives based around the measurable benefits of a companies investments.
dusky raft
this comes to mind
pure jetty
John Stossel 
shut vine
I generally lean towards the it must provide results incentives rather than the "we promise it'll be good" incentives.
Education is a clear example of why this doesn't work.
foggy fern
Education is such a giant clusterfuck. We spend too much and get too little but the only answers are to spend more or to spend more but give it to private companies and whenever this one gets tried we end up with a lot of scammers or it's just a backdoor to provide government funding for religious schools
shut vine
Health is another one that is a good example.
mystic ermine
Like, things like school vouchers, I get
foggy fern
The real answer to a lot of these would be to start by cutting out about half the administrative overhead and then look for ways to cut more 😛
mystic ermine
I mean, in the UK we basically get to pick to apply to schools within a range of where we are
downfall is that many people get stuck in the schools closest to them or have very little choice for logistical reasons
e.g. we don't have a school bus scheme here in the UK
dusky raft
we need to cut funding to colleges, which just double or triple dip into government money
mystic ermine
So, most people go to schools that they can get within walking range out of the few shitty schools in that range
foggy fern
We make these ridiculously complex systems to manage all the ways people have figured out to abuse the system and end up with the system itself being the abuse
mystic ermine
Like, my class was basically dwarf sized compared to other schools and each year only got shorter until they just closed the school as they couldn't get the pupil intake it was that bad
shut vine
One of the big issues in education is funding is provided despite failures of the facilitators effectiveness or a particular courses effectiveness in getting a student a job. America's biggest issue right now though is school choice not being a thing.
pure jetty
schools being tied to property taxes in a lot of areas also suck
foggy fern
The real problem is that funding is tied to property taxes instead of coming from a general fund
mystic ermine
We make these ridiculously complex systems to manage all the ways people have fi...
and, heavily this
and the worse part is that there is no means to toss out these failing systems and replace it with a new book
mystic ermine
I mean, I'd argue that they're tied
shut vine
They are close, I agree.
mystic ermine
we know that this system sucks ass and yet we can't get the rules rewritten
foggy fern
Administrative overhead and unequal funding
shut vine
Oh, thought you meant unequal funding and school choice.
mystic ermine
I mean, falls under the rules book, imho
foggy fern
Rather than fixing the funding we tried forced busing instead for reasons
dusky raft
the horrible primary/secondary school system is great for colleges that are raking in the cash
mystic ermine
these systems are failing, and we know their failing, and any solution towards it is often thrown out of the window in favour of adding a 100 page set of rules to the back of the existing book
foggy fern
Most of the argument I see for school choice is because of the funding issue
Everyone thinks if they get a voucher system they'll get to send their kids to the school in the rich neighborhood
mystic ermine
There comes a point where as a society, imho, we need to toss out a lot of the crap we've written and condense it, address the core issues rather tryna patch over them by making the book thicker each year
I mean, imho, that should be an option
downfall is ofc the supply of the school will never be able to meet that
foggy fern
If the school in the rich neighborhood didn't get 5 times the funding it wouldn't be the best school to go to
shut vine
My primary reason for saying school choice is a big issue is that given choice people are able to choose to live in a lower class neighborhood in order to have their kids go to a school with middle class outcomes.
foggy fern
The voucher system is just an inefficient way of solving the property tax issue
mystic ermine
So, people will need to spread out, but, the big pro that I see is that schools which are downtrodden will have the capcaity to get the funds that it needs or will disappear
dusky raft
I dont think there should be just a voucher system, it should be a mix of base funding and voucher. the base funding provides "just enough" to get through a typical school year. vouchers would give more incentive to get more cash
mystic ermine
I mean, for me, I just saw the voucher system as a means of allowing for parents to have more choice over which schools their children go to, and trying to push existing failing schools to snap back into some form of sanity vs just being given more cash each however often in a "surely more cash will fix it"
pure jetty
vouchers will always lead to a supply problem
foggy fern
I could see that but people want the vouchers to be usable for private schools too (mostly religious ones)
pure jetty
and less enrollment to already underfunded schools therefore less funding
decreasing the quality further
dusky raft
im fine with private/religious schools given that they follow federal/state guidelines on teaching.
pure jetty
i don't care about them either but I don't really like the idea of them getting a lot of federal funding
mystic ermine
I mean, issue is maintaining the split between the entities, if public schools are heavily failing, it sorta makes you wonder where the issue is
Some private schools are actually cheaper than public schools, just, public doesn't pay
dusky raft
they get a lot of funding? I thought Ive heard administration of those schools are way cheaper and take in less cash
shut vine
I'm not entirely sure, I know there were a couple big private schools that recieved 100+ million in the latest stimulus.
dusky raft
also, isnt sweden the poster child of socialism?
they have school choice
and have quite a bit of private schools
shut vine
Depends on who you ask.
mystic ermine
weren't swedens public schools pretty up there, however?
pure jetty
and depends what you define socialism as
shut vine
A lot of politicians advocate for things closer to Venezuela's socialism.
dusky raft
general term, I dont care which one you pick
mystic ermine
Issue with how many places are setup is that even a small % of students going to shitty schools adds up
dusky raft
I'll go for the bernie example in this case because he used sweden as an example for socialism in some of his speeches
pure jetty
lol
dusky raft
I know, hes considered "right-wing" compared to real socialists
mystic ermine
shut vine
From the things I've heard him say, I'm pretty sure he doesn't actually understand their system very well.
pure jetty
socialism isn't when the government does stuff
mystic ermine
Like, those are the high schools available in my city, one or two have closed since I left
pure jetty
that happens in capitalism
shut vine
Though maybe I'm not understanding his ideas too.
dusky raft
right, workers own the means to production. which never really works on scale
pure jetty
socialism implies workers owning the companies they work at
correct it doesn't work
neat in theory
tons of unsolved issues
shut vine
It can if it's consensual, but yeah unlikely if it's the only choice you have.
mystic ermine
like, damn
if you want a high school which is doing well, you've got like 1 option in my home town
pure jetty
even when consensual it doesn't work
dusky raft
I'm just saying that ive heard from socialists pointing to sweden as to why we cant be more like them. they have school choice, and their healthcare system is somewhat decentralized.
pure jetty
you need some sort of way to raise capital
and all of Europe is very much just social capitalism
mystic ermine
Thing is that last I recall, if you wanted a system like sweden or switzerland, you gotta raise the taxes for everyone
and, well, nobody likes that
pure jetty
socialists love to point to europe as a socialist utopia but its just not true
it makes a good strawman
dusky raft
american socialists
pure jetty
well sure
mystic ermine
I mean, many people love to discredit the savings you'll make elsewhere, and some people wouldn't wanna get rid of stuff like their private healthcare
even in the UK where we have the NHS, private healthcare is somewhat of a common offering for decent companies
I mean, people point to things like public infra as socialism
shut vine
Utopia technically comes from Greek words which mean 'no-place', coincidence? 😉
mystic ermine
and, yet, I don't know a single piece of public infra which the public is overall happy with
Like, as I said, we'll all defend the existence of our health service, but, it's all fun until you're sitting in A&E for hours with your forearm in the wrong place in agony as the system is just overburdened
our trains are on time, but, that's a public-private parnership
busses are private owned but often council sanctioned and back when i was using those services, a missing bus or the driver just riding straight past you was always joyous
I have one mate whos in preston who I've not talked to but before she went on maternity i'd often see her bitching about the bus services
The thing is that private companies often have some level of incentive to do good, until they become an unbeatable monoply, which is why beyond all of the failings of the rail system since it was de-nationalised, it's one of the most stable forms of public transport, as companies get oosted if they can't deliver on time or fail to meet their commitments, which is part of why I dislike the idea of government running stuff as who gives a shit if the governments late, what you gonna do, go to the private firm? Oh, they all closed when we took over the system.
shut vine
Yeah government control of things should generally be something that is only done sparingly.
dusky raft
its why I dont think government should just take over an industry when it fails to meet the standards of the public
mystic ermine
for me it's why stuff the government basically paying out to private companies is a fun one
people scream and say that we shouldn't be doing that, but, in those private firms? the results speak for themselves
foggy fern
foggy fern
Did you guys see the blatant attempt at gaslighting from House Republicans? Saying the Jan 6 rioters were just normal tourists, Trump supporters were the real victims that day, only Trump supporters died that day, etc
pure jetty
lmfao
foggy fern
Meanwhile he writes shit like this https://www.gainesvilletimes.com/columnists/guest-column/guest-column-andrew-clyde-republicans-must-move-forward-from-horrendous-events-of-jan-6-unite-against-radical-agenda/
The events of Jan. 6 were horrendous. A Capitol police officer called my office yesterday and asked my staff if they wanted him to show me his bodycam footage.
I would be happy to sit down with that officer and recount his bravery in the line of duty. But I would not have to in order to understand that day’s events. I was there. I was one of the very last members to leave the floor on Jan. 6 and helped the Capitol Police barricade the doors.
I was on the House floor when Air Force veteran Ashli Babbitt was killed. I will never forget hearing the shot.
Also this is his first term in office
glossy sandal
The only qualification to be elected for house of rep. Is to be batshit insane
warm ibex
tough cedar
oh boy, saw this in my notifications today too
dusky raft
didnt israel level one of their buildings in gaza?
near glen
Yeah
dusky raft
I am pro small anti large capitialism. I dislike large corps getting their say in government while screwing the smaller guy and citizen
I also do not like big government, and our government is getting to big for itself.
its not responsible with how it handles itself, with all of its complexities at the top level.
plush crypt
https://www.svenskakyrkan.se/vasterasstift/personligt-brev-till-dig-som-ar-trans ("Översätt" in top right corner for English)
Letter of support from the Swedish church to trans people 
I'm a big-time atheist, but this was truly heart warming
near glen
Both capitalism and communism are extremes that should be avoided, the middle is where it's at. The market needs regulation to work and be sustainable, plus you need strong social systems in order to keep your society intact.
faint radish
This made me chuckle
near glen
Not sure how I feel about redidculing (how the fuck is that spelled?) That
But isn't it pronounced with the E?
Our am I just stupid
faint radish
Since when is satire ridicule? It’s satire
It’s English, it’s stupid.
The I makes an “e” sound.
Well, actually, it’s an I sound
Idk
near glen
Since when is satire ridicule? It’s satire
I don't need to like it tho?
faint radish
But it’s not ridicule is what I’m saying
near glen
Isn't that subjective?
tough cedar
idk if satire itself is subjective
faint radish
I don’t think it is very, ridicule means like dismissive right? You could say all satire is dismissive cause it makes fun of, but then if all of it is, none of it is
tough cedar
how you interpret it can be though
near glen
Lemme google the Definition for that world, lmao
faint radish
subject (someone or something) to contemptuous and dismissive language or behavior.
That’s the verb definition.
faint radish
That’s ridicule, did you mean the def of satire?
faint radish
Ridicule has a negative connotation to it, like it was done in bad taste, or with malice, or bad intentions or smth
tough cedar
i mean you probably could ridicule with satire though
near glen
Yeah I see that now
faint radish
i mean you probably could ridicule with satire though
It’s not satire then I don’t think
foggy fern
faint radish
so that's what was in the vaccine... got it
mystic ermine
US isn't a capitalist country, it's a crony capitalist
the US gov bails out big players who do stupid shit often vs letting them fall
consumer protections are always nice, it's why we have stuff like the financial protection scheme in the UK which protects you and your funds, not the banks
However, gov still bails out the banks even here, and it's just dumb, because it gives these large corps the opertunity to do stupidly risky shit that they wouldn't do with their own cash
pure jetty
just curious on what systems you think the US shouldn't have "bailed out"
for example, if you bring up banking, i ask what your solution would be, let all of american's money just go poof?
mystic ermine
it sucks to lose banks, but, they're a business
pure jetty
it doesn't just "suck" it ruins whole countries
mystic ermine
it's why over in the UK we have schemes which protect the individuals money rather than the banks
pure jetty
when we did bail them out however we started regulating the shit out of them and also created the FDIC
mystic ermine
I'd much rather of seen the money go towards citizens than bailing out the mega corps
homeless people isn't an "afford" problem
pure jetty
if america didn't bail out the banks, it would have led to more homeless people
and created another problem
we created the FDIC and tons of other agencies/laws to protect against that from happening the future
mystic ermine
it's a "statemen get in the way of all the public projects and refuse to fund them in favour of funneling the money into over-paid projects which pay well above market rent and run often years over their dates"
Well, yea, I get it, bailing it out made a lot of sense
But, there in lies the issue, companies in the US get so large and buddy buddy with the US gov that they practically can't fail as big daddy government will just toss made up cash into them if shit hits the fan
pure jetty
well if the industry is important i hope so
airlines for example
we helped them during covid
torn wadi
Telecom companies. 
mystic ermine
And, that's another thing
pure jetty
because it'd be pretty bad if all our airlines failed while lockdowns were happening
mystic ermine
Like, I agree, government tells you you can't run your business for some reason, government should support your business unless it was a you fuckup
pure jetty
yeah sure that's fine but I think there are times where helping businesses that do fuckup on their own can be beneficial to the general public
in which case I'm fine with those cases to
a la banks in 2007
mystic ermine
I mean, it's caveated, but, having a full set of industries knowing that they have reasonable "big daddy will help you out" just doesn't entirely sit right to me
especially as many smaller businesses which are more important to the economy bar just holding a metric ton of cash get fucked over
dusky raft
banks were not the only cause of the problem, the government did have its hands in the housing market crisis
its just everyone blamed it on the banks because they are the ones often visible
pure jetty
it was subprime lending that led to that which is technically the banks fault
but at the same time it was not a good idea to let them lose everyone's money
faint radish
love that movie
dusky raft
and im using a fucking wall street journal video, though mainly only the first minute or so of it
pretty much banks converted their loans into securities processed by GSEs
pretty much this is a similar situation with student loans
warm ibex
It's good if it's like the nordic model
dusky raft
to be honest, when looking at the nordic model, there are different factors that in the US, may only apply to a few select states than the entire US itself.
also the poor get taxed much higher rates compared to the US
It can work in the US, but I cannot see it as a one size fits all, each state should be able to handle its own way of doing things. The federal government should provide the glue to otherwise independent systems operating with each other.
foggy fern
iirc if you look at the overall tax rate the US isn't any better
Not income tax, all tax
faint radish
k, time to actually see how true that is
urban vector
it's mandated signs for trans-friendly restrooms or something along those lines right?
pure jetty
correct
faint radish
ok, so those are really two different things
"... signs warning other customers if trans people are welcome"
vs
bathroom signage
urban vector
and that the signs are forced if you allow trans people in the restrooms that match their gender too
pure jetty
requires signage on bathrooms that allow people who are not their birth sex
ACLU is challenging it too afaik
urban vector
so yeah, it is signs that warn people if trans people are welcome - the intent is pretty clear
pure jetty
in practice tho, I see nobody putting these signs up
they can just say male and female bathrooms and just not police it
urban vector
i doubt there's any way they could actually enforce it
pure jetty
yeah
urban vector
you'd just play dumb "oh i didn't know they were trans" or whatever
pure jetty
yeah
faint radish
dont really know what the government is doing in the bathroom business, specifically for private businesses
but thats the "get off my back government" part of me speaking
urban vector
it's always those "small government" politicians who love to get in other people's business
faint radish
well, the republican party has done a horrible job of being a small government party
its a hard-sell too, trying to sell not getting "free" money. course, its not free money, its taken from someone else, but no one really cares anymore
dusky raft
to be honest, fuck current bathroom setups, fuck em all. just make one hallway with 6-8 stalls, toilet and sink included. Problem solved.
its just going to take maybe around $10k per bathroom maybe, but that should stop the fighting
pure jetty
i mean ideally yeah but culturally that would never work at least in the US
in Sweden they have a setup like that, no?
dusky raft
most likely not, plus I was talking about those single family unit bathrooms just grouped together
so the toilet and sink would be in one unit
mystic ermine
repubs aren't really small government
They're generally as corrupt as the next guy and if they can keep funnling cash and such where they want it, they're good
plush crypt
Oh hey, I wonder which other country also did this during the 30s & 40s...
foggy fern
You spelled 60s wrong 😛
plush crypt
No? A little certain regime we all definitely support did exactly this with Jewish people
brisk cradle
One of the big issues in education is funding is provided despite failures of th...
Michigan has some of the U.S.’s widest-open school choice policies. It also ranks near the bottom in education quality, incidentally enough.
In principle, school choice is a good idea
shut vine
Interesting correlation. Bit hard to say for sure if that's causation though when countries with open choice in this area do better. It is however potentially the causation, would just require more elaborate study.
brisk cradle
But when you don’t adequately put limits on it, you get stuff like charters that barely educate the kids they’re supposed to teach
Privatized public education is even worse
shut vine
Which is generally why I'm for basing a portion of funding on outcomes weighted appropriately.
If schools have no incentive to do well (i.e. they get full funding regardless, or they have a monopoly), you're relying on their "good will".
brisk cradle
Sorry, I need to have my cat time
shut vine
No worries, have fun
Also forgot to mention, the two highest ranked states have a school choice system. 🙂
brisk cradle
I was thinking vouchers, lol
Now that’s a different story. Voucher systems only exist to spit in the face of the Establishment Clause and siphon public money.
shy gulch
warped wagon
neon niche
narrow ore
pearl plinth
?ban @astral trail Randomly pinging everyone
feral hearthBOT
:raised_hands: Banned Stfu Teebs#7685 (Randomly pinging everyone) [1 total infraction] -- olivia // chew#0579.
smoky holly
naive slate
That was unfortunate
brisk cradle
But even then, there are lots of charters that do a pretty shitty job
tall vessel
pearl plinth
if you got ghost pinged: sorry the message got deleted
tall vessel
it's alright lol, lots of servers getting raided recently 
foggy fern
tough cedar
James and District Attorney Cyrus Vance Jr. are both Democrats. "Oh guess it's just a witch hunt then"
I have to imagine they found something that could actually get someone in trumps organization criminally prosecuted if they're announcing this
eager hawk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If-by-whiskey
I learned this term today and realized i do it quite too often 😅
mystic ermine
restive seal
Which is generally why I'm for basing a portion of funding on outcomes weighted ...
How does a public school improve if it can't get the equipment and staffing it needs because it isn't doing well?
mystic ermine
what happens when the issue isn't a cash flow issue?
Some schools just have tragic administration and staffing which develops into an environment which just doesn't work
There was some news report a good while back of some kid who basically is repeating a good chunk of stuff because he didn't show up for like a full year, how does a functioning school miss that?
shy gulch
The issues with my school is 100% the fault of our state. If we went by federal standards we would be doing better lol.
Worse then the state is our school board itself
Our state gets funding from the federal government then administers the funds (in a really shitty way based off test scores) to the regional school boards. My school board has had its funds stolen by the administration 4 times now.
Our shitty school system definitely needs to be improved on a localized level
Federal reform isn't bad but its another one of those issues that people believe can simply be improved federally.
mystic ermine
it's a complex issue in which the needs of schools often aren't addressed
shy gulch
If schools have no incentive to do well (i.e. they get full funding regardless, ...
Pennsylvania attempts to accomplish this whole "incentive" idea by funding school boards based off standardized testing scores. It creates hundreds of shitty issues.
mystic ermine
taking cash from these schools is often dumb but funneling cash into them in a lot of cases ain't going to address the issues in man
My school in the UK was placed into special measures and we got extra resources
they did use that cash to do up the IT suites which was nice, and a few other projects to try to get people to come, but, the school was basically falling apart and it had entered a death spiral where the entire area was generally doing kinda shitty with lots of like "wanna be gang" type goings on
people didn't wanna send their children to our schools so class sizes dwindled to the point where they stopped accepting students for the new year as there just wasn't the intake to maintain a class
and by that point you had like year 7 which was like two sets, so you had the smart students and those trailing behind in the same classes, which meant that those people held others back as it took longer for them to learn, and then you had all the kids who where a general nucance would disrupt a wider range of students vs just the stragglers, which, yea, you don't want anybody held back at the whims of others but it just didn't produce a good environment
shy gulch
and by that point you had like year 7 which was like two sets, so you had the sm...
Yeah its exactly the same for my school
and since funding is given based off state standardized testing scores, schools that are struggling are given no money for improvements whilst the schools that already have resources are given more money that they end up using to put a few more 4k TVs in their cafeteria .
So you have a problem here were struggling schools continue to struggle and already rich schools continue to get more money
then parents leave the district and shit continues to get worse
The whole funding based off "incentive" already exists here and its killing school districts