#politics

1 messages · Page 54 of 1

eager hawk
#

@faint radish you disagreed with this.

faint radish
#

yeah, I don't think it (what Piers did) constitutes intimidation or harrasment

eager hawk
#

^ 0_0

faint radish
#

doesnt intimidation imply that the intimidator gets something out of the deal?

eager hawk
#

Alright agree to disagree I guess

faint radish
#

like you intimidate as a means to an end?

foggy fern
#

You can only defame public figures if you act with "actual malice"

faint radish
#

yeah, that sounds correct.

foggy fern
#

"actual malice" was defined as "knowledge that the information was false" or that it was published "with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not"

#

Then you get in to fun arguments about who is a public figure

faint radish
#

what Piers said was clearly an opinion tho right? he is talking about whether he believes MM or not

foggy fern
#

Yeah

faint radish
#

yeah, so no way thats harrasment or intimidation

foggy fern
#

If NBC runs a story about you without your approval are you now a public figure?

eager hawk
foggy fern
#

I think the answer is yes, if the news is talking about you and brings you to general public attention after that the rules change for defamation against you

foggy fern
faint radish
foggy fern
#

It just sucks that you can be a public figure without asking to be

faint radish
#

hey, welcome to the internet 🤷‍♂️

#

someone just needs to unplug the internet

foggy fern
#

If you're posting on twitter you're asking for it, that's an indexed public thing where the whole point is for everyone to see what you write

#

But in general I do think the world would be better off if we unplugged twitter, facebook, instagram, etc

#

Go back to chats and forums where you have to seek the stuff out

faint radish
#

yeah, I'm pretty sure those are indeed a net negative

foggy fern
#

Putting it all in one place driven by an algorithm that wants to piss you off because that improves engagement is making a world full of raging assholes

faint radish
#

before, if you had horrible ideas, you didnt have anyone near you to encourage you. now, you and all the people you agree with can get together and reinforce your ideas.

eager hawk
#

Aight, well machine maker, legal arguments and issues aside, you do believe what Piers Morgan said was ridiculous, inappropriate, and was disgusting for invalidating someone's mental health? Along with making it difficult for victims to speak up seeing how much of an opposition and hatred against Meghan for doing so? And especially by a notable, big name anchor who has influence over a large proportion of UK citizens?

#

Either way, great discussing with you two, thanks for staying civil :)

#

I've learned a lot from this convo

#

Thanks to you guys

foggy fern
near glen
#

I mean, was it surprising?

#

Who would have thought that idiots who transfer power based on blood line are also rassist assholes?

lyric stream
#

cooperative

#

check out mutual interest

#

crowdfunding, re novara media/unicorn riot

#

there's plenty of funding models for media other than state/private, private is absolutely not a viable alternative to state funding

#

this is bang on the money. state interests are just the interests of the private interests that installed the state.

pure jetty
#

Crowd funding is not realistic lmfao

#

You cannot extract consistent amounts of capital out of the same people

near glen
#

Any subscription service is crowdfunding, change my mind

faint radish
#

TV news use to always operate at a loss right? It was more a point of pride for the big mega-corps that they owned a news station.

naive rover
#

Here we go

pure jetty
naive rover
#

Twitter doesn't want to be regulated

#

no company wants external intervention

faint radish
pure jetty
#

yeah there was a conversation in general

faint radish
#

Oh lol. Ok. Thought it was outta nowhere

naive rover
#

Yeah, sorry for no context, continuing on a discussion about twitter getting slowed down by russian government

near glen
naive rover
#

They were asked to remove some CP-related content

#

they didn't

pure jetty
naive rover
#

they got slowed down by the russian government

pure jetty
#

twitter didn't remove CP?

#

heh

naive rover
#

it wasn't CP i think

#

it was related to a CP incident

pure jetty
#

oh?

naive rover
#

let me point you the article

mystic ermine
#

there's countless of reports over the years where the big social media networks didn't remove CP

naive rover
mystic ermine
#

most of the riot shit was coordinated on twitter/facebook

pure jetty
#

but I doubt it'd be because of a willingness to want CP on the platform

naive rover
mystic ermine
#

It's the refusal to do anything about it when linked to it

pure jetty
#

now is this just Russia lying?

naive rover
#

nope, twitter is known to be a less restrictive social network

mystic ermine
#

as I said, there's countless anecdotal stories of victims trying to get content to removed from sites like twitter, facebook, pornhub, over the past oh god so many years that it was inevitable that somebody would finally put their foot down

naive rover
#

it is less censored

faint radish
#

😱 Russia policies social media content? My worldview is ruined.

mystic ermine
#

censored has fuck all to do with it

#

it's CP

#

it's people being r***d

pure jetty
#

that's just illegal content to host

mystic ermine
#

Twitter allows this shit

pure jetty
#

I don't think they allow it, I think it's probably just a very mismanaged T&S team

#

since isn't it all outsourced

mystic ermine
#

so, they allow it through mismanagement

pure jetty
#

""""""sure""""""

mystic ermine
#

There is a diference between, CP was uploaded and faded into the background

#

to, CP was uploaded, reported dozens of times by victims, randomers on the internet, GOVERNMENT ENTITIES, and was just left on there

#

there is an entiiire fucking huge difference between the two

#

twitter has been found to be doing both

naive rover
#

I've read an article stating twitter just refused to remove it

#

since it wasn't breaking their TOS

mystic ermine
#

the former, it sucks ass, but, I believe that it's hard to manage that stuff, well, if you ignore the arguments for taking down other social networks

#

the latter

#

the latter is straight up refusal to remove the content from their platform

naive rover
mystic ermine
#

and there are a handful of stories out there where twitter has refused to remove such content until they've recieved a notice from law enforcement

pure jetty
#

what's probably happening is an ineffective outsourced trust and safety team gets everything shoved through it and twitter doesn't care enough to change it

naive rover
#

JRoy, these things can be implemented

#

there is no interest on twitter's end to properly protect against that

pure jetty
naive rover
#

that's why nothing is done

pure jetty
#

yeah i'd agree

naive rover
#

It's not expensive to build an automatic system to flag suspicious posts for verification or that helps the support team properly handle reports

mystic ermine
#

parler was nuked from the internet because they didn't want to moderate content

#

Why is twitter not being held up to the same bar?

pure jetty
#

AWS doesn't want to nuke them lmfao

#

probably a lot of money

mystic ermine
#

AWS dropped them

#

Oh, you mean twitter, nvm

#

am dum

pure jetty
#

yeah

#

was gonna say 0_o

naive rover
#

Ah, obviously

mystic ermine
#

It's like part of the constant hypocrisy, twitter gets away with this stuff and is basically the norm

#

I don't often support russia

#

but, like, right at this moment

#

I fucking support russia

pure jetty
#

I don't it's still a stupid fucking idea

mystic ermine
#

Just, they.. erm... not slowing down steam might be nice..

#

How so?

#

A site is hosting CP

#

through their own refusal to remove it

#

if this was any other smaller media company the world would literally be firing flack at them and protesting for them to be taken offline

pure jetty
#

slowing them down doesn't solve the problem, it's also convenient that a lot of anti-russia and pro-lgbtq content is on there

#

What would change is a US based law that removed section 230 safe harbors for CP content reported to them

naive rover
#

What is the alternative?

pure jetty
#

now that is a good solution

mystic ermine
#

and what say does russia have in that?

naive rover
#

what can the russian state do to remove CP

mystic ermine
#

best russia can do is bar access to the site

pure jetty
#

why do you want to give russia any say in this

mystic ermine
#

wha?

#

give russia a say in what?

naive rover
#

Because their citizens have as much of a say in their access to a platform as us citizens do

pure jetty
#

they're a US based company with no presence in russia

naive rover
#

the russian state represents the citizens

#

and it does have a presence in russia

pure jetty
#

they have an office?

naive rover
#

russian individuals can access the platform

mystic ermine
#

I mean

pure jetty
#

i meant legal presence

mystic ermine
#

if this is the thing which makes twitter put their foot down, I fucking support it

naive rover
#

GDPR also is enacted in all countries with EU customers

#

Independent if you have or not have an office there

pure jetty
#

Russia isn't EU

#

twitter has an office in the EU somewhere

naive rover
#

I'm saying it's not out of the norm

#

It's normal that Russia is seeking to solve this for their population

pure jetty
#

and I'm sorry but the GDPR doesn't affect me, a US citizen, if I harvest EU data

naive rover
#

And the steps they took are the only steps they can take

pure jetty
#

that's not how this works

mystic ermine
#

if you have EU customers, you're hounded by the GDPR

pure jetty
#

they have no ramification against me

mystic ermine
#

practically, no

#

legally, yea

pure jetty
#

they could block my site sure

#

that's all they could do

naive rover
#

^ Which is enough to impact you dearly

#

if you have EU customers

pure jetty
#

sure if you care about EU customers

#

but that's a lot more different than your statement

naive rover
#

Saying they can do nothing against you is the same as saying police can't jail you if they can't catch you

#

Yes, outside of their jurisdiction there's less steps they can take

#

but it's still illegal

pure jetty
#

listening to Russia is only as important to Twitter as their Russian users

naive rover
#

I doubt Twitter doesn't care

mystic ermine
#

and, well, we'll see if they care

pure jetty
#

^

naive rover
#

yep

#

let's see how they react

mystic ermine
#

I hope they do so that the victims of this can be helped

pure jetty
#

the best solution here is a US law that adds a restriction to 230 safe harbors when CP is involved

mystic ermine
#

230 is very...

pure jetty
#

230 is fine

mystic ermine
#

I mean, the argument against not removing 230 is "it's hard to moderate content"

#

but, yet, twitter seems to be good at moderating content when they want to

pure jetty
#

what I mean by restriction is that they can be sued for hosting CP directly if they do not reply to reports from state officials within x days

#

90-120 days probably a good number

#

idk talk to your state rep

naive rover
#

Russia cannot influence US civil law too much

#

And Russia doesn't need US to solve issues for them

#

they are a state in themselves

pure jetty
#

I'm not talking about Russia

#

I'm saying if you want a real solution that is it

#

that gives them a financial intensive

#

holy shit I can't believe you think Russia is doing this to protect their citizens

#

We'll see

#

I'd be curious if they actually reverse

#

because if I had to guess this is just a good cover story for Russia to do this

#

well yeah that

#

but I meant twitter

#

also do people not have DNS over TLS there

mystic ermine
#

don't gemmie wrong

pure jetty
#

or is Russia a root CA for all devices in their country

mystic ermine
#

There is likely an ulteria motive here

#

but, like

#

you know

#

who else is gonna stand up to these sites?

pure jetty
#

idk

#

better ways than this

mystic ermine
#

like what?

pure jetty
#

ideally you do it in a way that doesn't affect your citizens

mystic ermine
#

and ideally twitter acts on the thousands of reports they have

pure jetty
#

sure

#

you think russia can't get a backdoor meeting with twitter?

mystic ermine
#

at the end of the day, I can see why people would disagree with russias especially overhanded stance on it, but, somebody gotta

#

they've sent thousands of reports to them so I read?

pure jetty
#

reports likely all get forwarded to T&S

mystic ermine
#

Like, I'd imagine that this is something russia has talked to twitter over

#

and, if T&S is not dealing with it...

pure jetty
#

who would be

#

jack himself

#

unless its a legal document T&S probably all does it

mystic ermine
#

managerial board?

#

idk

pure jetty
#

where they hire labor for the lowest bidder

mystic ermine
#

At the end of the day, twitter is doing bad stuff through their own inaction or incompetience induced from their hiring/servicing policies or whatever

pure jetty
#

yeah sure

#

moderation game is pretty bad for this kinda stuff

#

it's gotten better than it was for sure but still could improve

#

I assume the grey line on the moderation team comes with the fact that they're like one of the big tech companies that allow porn on their site

#

like I don't think facebook does, i know youtube doesn't, instagram doesn't, etc

mystic ermine
#

So, what

#

CP victims have to have people in law enforcement to be able to adress their own abuse?

#

In some form of way here, there is a serious failing by twitter to address the problems on their platform

#

is russia being strong handed and likely to have ulteria motives? yea, sure

#

But, like

pure jetty
#

no no no I'm just trying to think of why at twitter it's handled so poorly

mystic ermine
#

if nobody else can stand up to them, who will

pure jetty
#

not justifying it

mystic ermine
#

they've had direct reports off people

#

Like, it's hardly a brand new issue

pure jetty
#

for sure

mystic ermine
#

Like, yea, sure, porn is porn, and can be sketchy on where you draw the line

#

but, literally every platform hosting porn has certain legal requirements

#

every company producing porn in any sane country has to retain legal proof of peoples identity and proof of age, etc

#

Like, I get it, public content, but, twitter at the very least should verify this stuff, especially if there is doubt casted on it

#

am not saying that every grown ass adult needs to upload their ID onto twitter if they wanna leak a titty pic when they're in the shower or whatever

#

but, if somebody comes and says, "there's abuse in this video involving a minor", why is there no requirement, either policy based or legal based on twitter to validate this?

foggy fern
#

We already have restrictions on 230 when it involves CP

#

Oh, wait, no, that was child sex trafficking

pure jetty
#

yeah they got backpage using that didn't they

foggy fern
#

Writing on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice, Assistant-Attorney General Stephen Boyd addressed Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Bob Goodlatte, expressing concerns that provisions of the bill would make it even harder to prosecute sex traffickers. Additionally they expressed concerns that certain provisions would violate the Constitution's ex post facto clause and thus be unconstitutional.[

#

This was a bill where the only 2 no votes were Ron Wyden and Rand Paul

#

If you know anything about those two you'd know that's a really weird combo

mystic ermine
#

😄

tough cedar
faint radish
#

well I'm fairly sure that's a little misleading. All Texas did was remove its state mandate for masks

#

counties/businesses are free to do what they want

#

I think the move may have been premature, but I'm all for more personal freedom

mystic ermine
#

people wearing masks are still gonna remain wearing masks

faint radish
#

exactly

mystic ermine
#

stores which didn't allow people to enter without a mask are still capable and likely will follow that practice

tough cedar
#

can't fine anyone anymore

faint radish
#

and if a business wants people who still want to wear masks to shop there, they will require them in their businesss

mystic ermine
#

Basically, if masks work as well as they say that they do, we wouldn't be being told to wear 2 now, and the rates in other places would I'd expect to be much lower

tough cedar
#

it was a 2k fine if you got written up about it

#

now they can't do that, and just because a business requires you to wear a mask doesn't mean people will

#

seen enough videos online of people getting pissy being told they had to wear a mask lol

mystic ermine
#

no mask, no entry

faint radish
#

a business is free to refuse entry to whoever they like...

#

and they should be

mystic ermine
#

I mean, a bunch of cities opened up around the same time

faint radish
#

its private property, the business is well within their rights to call the police to remove problem customers

mystic ermine
#

texas is just getting snipered in all the smoke

tough cedar
#

which cities?

mystic ermine
#

I mean, states

faint radish
#

I think Mississippi opened up, Iowa, Wyoming I think

mystic ermine
tough cedar
#

xd i don't live in those states

#

i don't agree with them opening up, but they also have way less population than texas, other than.. florida i guess

faint radish
#

lol "opening up"

mystic ermine
#

I mean, it's up to people to be sensible

faint radish
#

that is not what it is

#

its the state removing its mandate

mystic ermine
#

I know, letting people decide what's good for themselves is scary

tough cedar
#

right, whatever, same terms you get what i mean

mystic ermine
#

but, like, anybody smart is gonna still be taking reasonable precautions

faint radish
#

its NOT the same..

tough cedar
#

removing restrictions

faint radish
#

its a HUGE DIFFERENCE

tough cedar
#

there

mystic ermine
#

restrictions enforced by the state

tough cedar
mystic ermine
#

it's up to the public to be sane

faint radish
#

the VAST majority of businesses (if they want business) will still require masks

mystic ermine
#

I mean, I know it's a crazy ask, but, still

faint radish
#

because enough people still want to wear them

mystic ermine
#

if people wanna risk their own lives and oof themselves, go for it

#

I'm smart enough to take reasonable precautions for myself and would LOVE if my government fucked off with their restrictions

faint radish
#

and once enough people dont want to wear them 🤷‍♂️ that's how it works. and its on them, no one else

faint radish
foggy fern
#

If it was something that only hurt you maybe that'd be okay

tough cedar
#

no point in talking about this cause we have fundamentally different views, a libertarian point of view would be your rights stop when they start hurting other people

foggy fern
#

You wearing a mask is supposed to protect me though

tough cedar
#

and morons not wearing a mask can hurt me

#

and other people too

faint radish
#

just stay away from them?

mystic ermine
#

I mean

foggy fern
#

The libertarian viewpoint should be that the government should force you to wear a mask 😛

faint radish
#

shop in places that still require masks

#

there's no shortage of those

mystic ermine
#

I can't even have a drink of coffee walking through the park away from others without being at risk of having a fine slapped on me

tough cedar
#

well yea that too amaranth

mystic ermine
#

should have a war drill

#

army ships off 3 weeks of rations to everybody

tough cedar
#

idk why you keep going on about businesses requiring masks, they have no means to enforce it

faint radish
#

yes they do?

#

its private property

tough cedar
#

and people have gotten violent being told to wear a mask

mystic ermine
#

if you're found outside without good reason, <bullet in the head starts playing>

tough cedar
#

they don't want to deal with it

mystic ermine
#

and the mask mandate is totally helping with that

faint radish
#

they can call the police? again, its private property. they can kick whoever they want off

mystic ermine
#

people can be refused on property for any reason the business wants

tough cedar
#

no mask mandate just empowers people like that more

mystic ermine
#

they can kick you off because they don't want people wearing trainers in their store

tough cedar
#

can != will

faint radish
#

well that's on the business then. And they will lose customers if that becomes a big issue

#

they have a monetary incentive to provide a safe space

tough cedar
#

i mean they also have an incentive to try and keep PR damage as low as possible

faint radish
#

yes? Not sure there's a big group of people who are against removing customers that are just flat out annoying. (yelling, etc)

#

In addition to businesses, I believe counties can still have their own mandates

tough cedar
#

i mean whatever, just another instance of the gov not protecting some peoples rights

#

but us gov is pretty good at not doing that already lel

faint radish
#

there isn't a "right" to go onto private property and be protected from everything

#

a business isn't a public place

#

(talking about regulating business capacity in this case here)

#

and if you think you should have to wear a mask in a public place (like a sidewalk), then tell your local gov to mandate it

tough cedar
#

no mask mandate = less protection from the government from people who don't wear a mask = increased covid potential = increased death potential = deprivation of right to live, the unalienable right the gov is supposed to protect

faint radish
#

Is it the governments job to make sure you don't slip in the shower and break your neck?

tough cedar
#

whose rights am i harming if i fall and break my neck?

#

who harmed my rights by me slipping?

#

the answer is nobody

#

therefore it's not the governments job

faint radish
#

ok, better example is probably speed limits. Can be lowered and that would save more lives.

#

cause that does affect other people

#

higher speed limits

increased death potential = deprivation of right to live, the unalienable right the gov is supposed to protect

tough cedar
#

following the rules of the road doesn't violate anyones rights

faint radish
#

you can be following the rules and still have an accident that was no ones fault...

tough cedar
#

if you start driving in a manner that endangers other people, that's when the government needs to step in

faint radish
#

and someone can die

#

accidents can be just that, complete accidents

tough cedar
#

most accidents are someones fault

faint radish
#

not intentionally tho, I think that's important

tough cedar
#

right, but if they'd been following the rules the accident wouldn't have happened

#

the rules are there so the government can protect your life

#

if you disregard the rules and get into an accident.... i mean the gov can't stop that?

faint radish
#

they could reduce the risk of dying tho by lowering the speed limit

#

why don't they?

tough cedar
#

i don't know, probably because everything is so spread out lel

faint radish
#

I think its probably because people decided that the greater number of deaths was worth the extra productivity you have by going faster spending less time driving

tough cedar
#

ok, so what gains in productivity are there by getting rid of a mask mandate?

#

who benefits from not having to wear a mask?

faint radish
#

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. Key phrase there is people decided. As in the constituents of whatever jurisdiction decided that.

#

why should you, way on the western edge of Texas have a say in what someone does in a tiny town in eastern texas which you've never been, and never plan on going?

tough cedar
#

i mean it was 1 person that decided in texas to remove the mandate

#

he didn't even consult his health experts

faint radish
#

yeah, cause Texas is a dictatorship, I forgot.

#

no, he was elected by Texans

tough cedar
#

uhh... well it's not like we voted to revoke the mask mandate?

faint radish
#

that isn't how the country works. we elect people to make decisions for us. And you can un-elect them, not vote them back in, etc.

#

they are subject to their own constituents

#

and if you want to have to wear masks in your local jurisdiction, you are free to lobby your country/city gov to require it

#

and if you have enough people, it happens

tough cedar
#

i doubt greg abbott would be removed from office if he kept the mask mandate in longer lol

faint radish
#

🤷‍♂️ idk, but the politics will play out accordingly.

#

decisions are made all the time that extend or shorten life expectancy. Not in as direct a way as with covid usually

tough cedar
#

most people support wearing masks anyways, so really he should be voted out for revoking the mandate but because people most people aren't single issue voters probably not

faint radish
#

people with more money probably live longer, so tax code affects your life expectancy probably

tough cedar
#

lel i got distracted, i saw it pop up in my feed before writing my paper

faint radish
#

??

tough cedar
#

now i still have to write my paper

faint radish
#

gl w/that

tough cedar
#

it's actually a paper on U.S federalism too lol

ebon seal
#

My bank just called me complaining that I have an investment account with nothing in it????

#

Said that they have to close it

faint radish
#

biden's america

pure jetty
#

idk why you're equating that to biden but ok

faint radish
#

was a joke. apparently not a good one

ebon seal
#

I'm not even in america

small root
ebon seal
#

I told them I invest with a different financial institution

#

She goes

#

"But you have a chequing account here so why not"

faint radish
#

"chequing" kekw

#

just looks like a made up word to me 🙂

ebon seal
#

you let an orange manchild run your country for 4 years

#

your democracy is made up

faint radish
#

WOW outta nowhere that one came

small root
#

What shithole do you reside in Sweepy

pure jetty
#

politics escalating quickly

ebon seal
#

the one where the bills smell sickly sweet

small root
#

Well, it’s a shithole regardless of where it is, because sweepy lives there

ebon seal
faint radish
#

somewhere where they spell "checking" with a .... Q

small root
#

Canada or Europe then

shut vine
faint radish
#

dun dun dunnnnn

tough cedar
#

thats true

#

and admittedly that was a pretty weak argument for me to have made

eager hawk
# faint radish I think its probably because people decided that the greater number of deaths wa...

yes that's probably the reason why there are speed limits and not all speed limits are at like 5 mph. Does wearing a mask in any way inhibit productivity? No, hence this argument of yours correlating speed limits with wearing masks is invalid. There is clear scientific evidence wearing masks has a statistically significant impact of spreading covid. The libertarian view is to maximize autonomy, and if we were to respect that in regards to wearing masks, I believe the increased autonomy with public safety allowing high-risk individuals and the elderly to be safe from covid is a priority over the "oppression" of wearing a cloth fabric over your face

faint radish
#

its not about productivity. that wasn't the point

#

what I said afterwards is the point. the majority of constituents wanted higher speed limits (or in this case the removal of the state-wide mandate)

eager hawk
faint radish
#

if the politicians in Texas judged that wrong, they will be punished politically as always happens

#

shortening the early voting days from 29-20 is hardly voter suppression btw

#

this past election, there was a big expansion of voting windows due to covid. if states go to revert that... its suddenly voter suppression?

#

idk the details of the bills dems are complaining about

eager hawk
#

Strict voter photo ID laws
2. Closing of DMV’s in strict voter ID law states
3. Failure to accept government-issued state university and college student ID’s
4. No early voting
5. Early voting cuts
6. No Sunday Souls to the Polls Early Voting
7. Harsh requirements/punishments for voter registration groups
8. Tough Deputy Registrar Requirements
9. Harsh voter registration Compliance Deadlines
10.Failure to timely process voter registrations
11.Cuts to Election Day (Same Day) registration
12.Polling place reductions or consolidations
13.Polling place relocations
14.Inadequate or poorly trained staffing at polls
15.Inadequate number of functioning machines, optical scanners or electronic
polling books
16.Running out of ballots at polling sites
17.No paper ballots
18.Failure to accept Native American tribal IDs.
19.Barring Native American voters through residential address requirements for
Native American lands which have PO Boxes
20.Failure to place polling sites on Native American lands
21.Refusal to place polling sites on college campuses
22.Lack of available public transportation to polling sites
23.Excessive Voter purging

faint radish
#

I just know the early voting window is part of it.

eager hawk
#

24.Disparate racial treatment at polling sites
25.Student voting restrictions
• Residency
26.Ex-felon disenfranchisement laws
27.Requiring Payment of Fines or Fees As Condition of Vote Restoration
28.Failure to Inform Formerly Incarcerated Persons of Their Voting Rights or
Eligibility to Vote
29.Excessive Use of Inactive voter lists
30.No Public Outreach or Notification to Voters Placed on Inactive Lists
31.Language discrimination
• Failure to accommodate
32.Lack of language-accessible materials
33.Failure to accommodate voters with disabilities
34.No disability accessibility
35.No curbside Voting
36.Not enough disability accessible voting equipment
37.Barriers to assistance by family members or others for voters
38.Deceptive practices
• Flyers
• Robocalls
39. Voter intimidation
• Impersonating law enforcement personnel or immigration officers
40.Police at polling places
41.Racial gerrymandering
42.Creating polling place confusion by splitting Black precincts
43.Partisan gerrymandering
44.Barriers for homeless voters to voter registration
45.Voter caging
• Use of One-Time Post cards/Mailers
46.Voter challengers at polls
47.Voter challenges to voter registration lists

#

48.Use of Suspense lists
49.Absentee Ballot Short Return Deadlines
50.Exact match requirements for signatures or other information
51.Complicated Absentee Ballot Requirements
52.Proof of Citizenship Laws
53.Out-of-precinct = no vote counted requirements
54.Failure to pre-register 17 year olds
55.Restrictions on straight-party voting
56.Interstate voter registration Crosscheck system
57.Jailed persons’ preconviction: denied right to register and/or vote
58.DOJ demanding voter records
59.Employers not providing time off or enough time
60.Failure to assist or accommodate voters displaced by natural disasters
61.Long lines

faint radish
#

mmkay, lets go through these as I see them.
Proof of Citizenship... I see no problem with having to prove you are a citizen to vote? that's kinda who gets to vote.

#

Employers not providing time off. that's on the employer, not government. complain to them

#

Flyers? Flyers are deceptive? Iirc you currently can't have anything campaign related near polling places already (which probably violates the 1st amendment)

#

Robocalls (no one likes these and I'll be glad to see them gone for any topic 🙂 )

#

is this copy/pasta list things states are trying to do?

#

Long lines have been an issue in places forever

#

gerrymandering... hard to solve. Federal gov has no say in it... so yeah, idk if that's really solveable

#

felons voting... complex issue. You did have your rights taken away by a jury of your peers, should that include voting? probably for some crimes, probably not for others

pure jetty
#

gerrymandering isn't even necessarily bad too, if there was none, due to the way land is spread out and how even districts are, it would be pretty impossible for dems to win a majority ever

#

like you probably wouldn't have as many texas dems as we do now

eager hawk
#

if you're gonna nitpick on all the less valid points of voter oppression go ahead. i'm not going to argue against you if that's what you're gonna say. let's focus on the ones that i believe are existent and should be addressed then. 1) Some states don't allow for early voting, 2) Some states do not allow for same day registration 3) Polling place reductions or consolidations - In texas Abbott reduced the number of drop in ballots to 1 PER COUNTY. 4) Failure to inform formerly incarcerated persons of their voting rights 5) Minimal accessibility to voters with disabilities 6) language discrimination 7) Voter Intimidation 8) Racial gerrymandering 9) police at polling places 10) partisan gerrymandering 11) barriers for homeless voters to voter registration 12) complicated absentee ballot requirements 13) employers not providing time off - i argue with this in regards to establishing election day as a national holiday and replace one of the existing national holidays with a day off from work (for example president's day) 14) long lines

pure jetty
#

so outlawing it is probably a poor idea

#

possibly more restrictions?

foggy fern
#

Err, no, without gerrymandering you would redistrict things either only with population in mind so districts are equal there or so that they poll as close races

#

You wouldn't split things up based on land size

eager hawk
faint radish
#

does the government need to tell you what your rights are at all times?
ignorance of the law is not an excuse in a court of law

eager hawk
faint radish
#

why should that be different for voting (re: ex-cons)

#

for example, "I didn't know I couldn't use my phone in this state while driving" is not an excuse if you get pulled over for it. And it won't be in court either.

#

(this is one of the problems with having so many laws/regulations)

#

Voter intimidation. what form does that take?

eager hawk
eager hawk
faint radish
#

as for national holiday, I'm totally fine w/that, as long as its not in addition to all the other federal holidays where only gov employees dont have to work

eager hawk
faint radish
#

early voting should be shortened. SO many people had already voted before the FIRST pres debate last time. Is that a good thing?

#

I don't think its a good thing to ignore the "other" candidate no matter what cause they aren't "on your side"

#

so I am for forcing people to wait until closer to election day when information is out there.

#

what if trump had some some bat-shit crazy thing the day before election day and then won because so many people had pre-voted?

#

is that a good thing?

#

I understand the need for special circumstances last time because covid certainly qualifies as special circumstances

eager hawk
# faint radish early voting *should* be shortened. SO many people had already voted before the ...

it looks like you're looking at examples on the other side of the spectrum, where too early of early voting is in turn harming the expectation that one should watch the debates before voting. i can agree with that, that it can let people vote simply on party lines and no other. however this issue on the other side of the spectrum, and the restrictions for in-person early voting is an issue that needs to be addressed.

faint radish
#

why does there need to be in-person early voting?

eager hawk
faint radish
#

that isn't smart at all. if they were only representing a tiny portion of america... that doesnt translate to being good for all of it.

#

it doesnt mean they are bad, but it certainly doesnt mean they are automatically good

eager hawk
eager hawk
eager hawk
faint radish
#

oh I thought you mean "representative" as a political position they held before running for president

#

Also, I'm not 100% sold on the idea, that more people voting is automatically better

#

more informed people voting is good. but as Mark Twain said, if you dont read the news you are uninformed, if you do, you are misinformed

#

but the average joe who has never voted in his life, has no clue of the issues at stake in an election, strolls into a polling place cause its on his way to the bar or smth. is it good for him to vote?

eager hawk
faint radish
#

There ofc shouldn't be anything saying he cant

#

the word "automatic" in that context has nothing to do with your beliefs, but rather with mine

#

this last election, which if you read twitter, or watched the news, was "life or death" for the US, and still only 62% of eligible voters voted.

eager hawk
#

if you'd like to see for yourself the 253 voting suppression bills in 43 states that have been presented recently go ahead on this website. again sure some of them can be flawed/not necessarily voting suppression, but i don't see how you can argue me out into believing republicans are systematically suppressing voting.

faint radish
#

clearly there is a large portion of the country who couldn't be bothered to vote out "hitler"

eager hawk
faint radish
#

well I'm glad it isnt a requirement to vote like it is in some countries (a duty)

eager hawk
faint radish
#

what would you like me to say? I'm not a republican. Both parties try to "always win"

#

Democrats want to add more states to try to never lose the Senate again

pure jetty
#

fun fact texas can split into 5 states at any time

faint radish
#

is that really true?

pure jetty
#

without congress approval

#

yes actually true

eager hawk
faint radish
#

why should DC be a state?

pure jetty
#

there is some disagreement among legal scholars but yaknow

#

and DC should 100% not be a state

faint radish
#

just put it into Maryland or smth. The whole point of it not being a state was so a state wouldnt have control of the land the federal gov was located

pure jetty
#

a separate entity (state body) shouldn't have control over the federal government

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

that's the whole reason it isn't a state in the first place

faint radish
#

most republicans don't give two shits about fiscal conservatism anymore, regardless of what they say

#

lol, just look at how much the donald spent

eager hawk
faint radish
#

why?

eager hawk
#

how about puerto rico and guam?

faint radish
#

as for the territories, why not just give them their independence on the condition the US still gets to lease the land for our military stuff.

#

they are tiny....

#

well puerto rico is sizeable

eager hawk
#

wyoming has a far fewer population than puerto rico lmao bro

faint radish
#

the rest are tiny

eager hawk
#

ah

eager hawk
faint radish
#

I thought the left was all about decolonization (whatever that means). Why dont they want the gov to just drop them?

#

well for one, I imagine its hugely beneficial from their perspective to be protected/trade by/with the US

eager hawk
faint radish
#

basically, if the goal of whatever you are trying to do, is engineer a way (via spamming new states, or gerrymandering) so the other side doesn't have a voice in government, its wrong

#

the goal should be that your ideas are better

#

look at california. One party rule hasn't been doing great lately

#

there isn't a single republican in any statewide office for many years now

eager hawk
faint radish
#

california also has a ridiculous law where only the top 2 candidates appear on the official ballot, even if those two candidates are of the same party

#

so you end up with ballots in the general election only have 2 candidates from the same party on it

#

how is that not designed to make it harder for the other side to have a voice?

eager hawk
faint radish
#

isn't that like a false equivalency?

#

the Senate is not designed to be a democratic body proportional to population

eager hawk
eager hawk
faint radish
#

the senate is NOT supposed to work for the majority of the people in the country

foggy fern
#

A jungle primary is more representative of the people in a first past the post system

#

Other states do it too, iirc Mississippi is one of them

eager hawk
faint radish
#

yes absolutely.

eager hawk
#

why?

faint radish
#

we have a body that is proportional related to population, the House of Representatives

foggy fern
#

The house isn't proportional either

faint radish
#

I'm sure its put nicely in one of the Federalist Papers, but to protect against the tyranny of the majority

#

why should the few residents of Wyoming have to do what voters in california say?

foggy fern
#

The house used to be proportional but stopped in like 1920

eager hawk
faint radish
#

they do in one part of government, in the other part California has 52 reps, and Wyoming has 1

#

its designed to force compromise, something that is rapidly going out the window

#

but this will never change, like never.

#

(how the Senate works that is)

eager hawk
foggy fern
#

California has more than 52x the population of Wyoming

faint radish
#

in fact, its hard-coded in the constitution that you can't change how the senate works, even w/an amendment.

tough cedar
#

if the house was proportional would the republicans ever win it again lol

foggy fern
#

You can amend the constitution to remove that clause 😛

faint radish
#

probably not actually

#

the whole convention process would get thrown out before it even started I'm guessing

#

and even IF you could, you need 3/4 of the state legislatures to agree to essentially weaken their power in the federal government

foggy fern
#

Maybe after Civil War 2: This Time It's Personal

eager hawk
eager hawk
faint radish
#

pretty sure the federal gov cant do a mask mandate if it wanted

#

I think that was already a discussion under trump. And biden surely would've if he could.

eager hawk
# faint radish pretty sure the federal gov cant do a mask mandate if it wanted

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biden-masks/cdc-orders-sweeping-u-s-transportation-mask-mandate-as-covid-19-rages-idUSKBN29Y2YG

U.S.
CDC orders sweeping U.S. transportation mask mandate as COVID-19 rages

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) issued a sweeping order late Friday requiring the use of face masks on nearly all forms of public transportation Monday as the country continues to report thousands of daily COVID-19 deaths.

faint radish
#

transportation is different

eager hawk
#

though yes this is for transportation-sector only. and that makes sense. does texas still have mask mandates for that sector?

faint radish
#

no clue

tough cedar
#

not that i've seen

#

well, rather it goes to the city

eager hawk
#

This is a good post for those fantasizing about japan :)

near glen
#

Kek belgian police are major savages

vital pawn
near glen
#

22 in 3 million is nothing

#

To put that in relation, in germany we have 73k (direct, indirect, who knows) deaths for 2.5m cases

vital pawn
#

I expect that number of undetected cases is significantly higher (not everyone had to be detected), but still the ratio is nowhere close to eachother.

#

Though there is still moral dylema of giving something potentially deathly (even if with small possibility) to patients.

#

Will wait and see. Hopefully that's just coincidence.

near glen
#

Not really. A vaccine approval is always focused on this question: is the risk of the vaccine lower than the risk of what it prevents

vital pawn
#

It's possible that there's some health cases where you shouldn't use specific vaccine (as they might increase the lethality) and so you should use a different one or skip them completely (don't need to vaccinate 100% of population, just majority).

#

Tbh, I'm not very invested into all the health and covid situation, so it's possible that I'm saying stupid things (in which case would love to be corrected).

near glen
#

I think nobody here is an expert ^^

#

But yeah that makes sense

#

At least here in german, you have a talk about preconditions and stuff and a doctor can tell you to recommend not taking it

#

God knows if that actually happens

faint radish
#

whoa, hold on. This is the internet. everyone is an expert.

#

take it from an expert on the internet

plush crypt
#

i think they suspended that vaccine so easily because there are so many other viable options at this point

#

best to be on the safe side when you can get others anyways yaknow

smoky hedge
#

There are so many covid vaccines that hopefully most people can get at least one of them

#

Main problem there is availability

#

Eg, I'm not meant to take any viral vector vaccines - so the one in Aus is a no go for me

foggy fern
#

All else being equal, these changes will tend to pull opinion in a pro-European direction. We estimate they would be sufficient to produce a majority of 52%-48% for ‘Remain’ in 2021, and 54%-46% by 2026.

#

Has anyone done the old Remain/Leave poll again in 2021?

near glen
#

Who would knew younger ppl are more likely to be sane

foggy fern
#

I mean, it's too late now, they're fully out and done with the transition period even

near glen
#

I read today that they wanna get rid of gdpr, after kinda sabotaging it while they were in

#

Their remaining IT companies will hate them, especially hosts

pure jetty
#

hmm

#

I doubt you'd see UK rejoining the EU after they just went though all that lmfao

#

there isn't a real reason for them to rejoin

#

I mean especially looking at the EU's botched covid response

near glen
#

There wasn't a real reason to leave and they are the Brits so you never know

foggy fern
pure jetty
#

control over your borders/trade is a reason ¯_(ツ)_/¯

near glen
#

It's a bit unfair to say the EU butchered it, they approach was just different. EU wants to give everybody fair access to the vaccine. US and UK basically stop vaccine exports

foggy fern
#

EU is the one stopping exports now and isn't the UK exporting it to the EU?

near glen
#

EU is stopping exports? Haven't heard anything about that

foggy fern
pure jetty
#

when people are dying from a virus, I'm sorry you shouldn't be stopping countries from getting a vaccine

near glen
#

UK is exporting more again now, yes

pure jetty
#

because at least some people would get it

#

it would get to everyone eventually but the EU is trying to make an all or nothing deal

torn wadi
pure jetty
#

vaccinating some people now is better than waiting to vaccinate everyone at the same time months down the line

faint radish
#

Is that what Europe was trying to do?

foggy fern
#

No

#

Unless you know of some stockpile the EU is sitting on because they have distribution problems they're getting shots in arms as fast as they can they just aren't as fast as the US or UK

#

Sounds like it's mostly a supply issue, the vaccines they bet big on have had problems getting production ramped up

mystic ermine
#

They took 3 months to sign the contract for the vaccine with AZ, and from what I kinda remember didn't pay until around the time they where making a stink, it's like saying to a company "yea, I'm gonna order 20m of your product", not signing the contract for 3 months, and then wondering why you've not recieved X amount 3 months later (i.e. 6 months ahead of the original "wanna trade" convo)

#

Due to that, the EU production took longer than they'd hoped to deal with the procurement of the materials and such neccesary, meaning that the 3 months we dealt with production shortfalls while EU branch was basically twiddling their thumbs

#

I know, yea, it's a vaccine, but, they shouldn't have to impact deliveries to other countries because you sat around for 3 months

#

not to mention, in response to production issues, the EU basically sent a team out to AZs EU factory to investigate if they've been shipping stuff abroad and basically to my understanding started threatening legal action against the company

foggy fern
#

I dunno, it's common to have purchase agreements where money doesn't change hands until the product does

#

In this case giving them money might have helped them produce more while waiting for regulatory approval but not really because they're going to sell everything they make for the next year anyway

mystic ermine
tough cedar
#

no nipps in the news

faint radish
#

wut

dusky raft
#

The EU response is a total mess

eager hawk
#

At least US vaccine rollout is going well, Biden said vaccines for all adults should be available by May 1st :)

dusky raft
#

it remains to be seen

pure jetty
#

no reason not to believe it

#

there have been little to no hiccups with our vaccine rollout

#

i think we're #5 in world

#

Israel, UAE, UK, and Chile above us

faint radish
#

At least US vaccine rollout is going well, Biden said vaccines for all adults should be available by May 1st 🙂
pretty sure that's not what he said.
I think he said all adults will be eligible to get vaccines by May 1st

#

which doens't mean they'll be enough vaccines by that date

#

yeah, that's exactly what he said

unknown.png
tough cedar
#

i think we already have all the vaccines

#

it's just a matter of distribution at this point

faint radish
#

I don't think so

tough cedar
#

or... not this point, but by may 1st

faint radish
#

why wouldn't it say available or some other wording then?

tough cedar
#

wasn't the timeline originally there'd be enough shots for every american by the end of may?

pure jetty
#

US has purchase orders with delivery dates at mid may

#

for 400M vaccines

faint radish
#

are some of those 2-shots JRoy? so you'd need well over the total adult pop then?

pure jetty
#

no clue i just remember the number

tough cedar
#

isn't that only like 232 million?

#

nope only 209 million

pure jetty
faint radish
#

ok Thonk... IF they meant that anyone who wanted it could get it by may 1st... why didnt they say that?

#

that's a WAY better story

tough cedar
#

idk im not the white house :p

#

if i had to guess it'd be because distribution is still a thing

#

and jroy said they have fulfillment dates for mid may for a lot more

mystic ermine
#

Yea, but they're also over-ordering now

faint radish
#

nah, I think its a bit of clever wordsmithing to make it sound like that's what they meant, so it looks better than it is

mystic ermine
#

I think that they had the total # of vaccines really needed locked in a little while ago

#

considering people who are actually elligable to get the vaccine

faint radish
#

Once all Americans are eligible to be vaccinated, the Administration will ensure that every adult is actually able to get the vaccine

#

that's also in biden's msg

tough cedar
#

nice they moved up the timeline ¯_(ツ)_/¯

#

maybe the 100 million will be for kids

faint radish
#

kids can't get the vaccine afaik

#

wasn't tested on them

mystic ermine
#

I wanna say, kinda remmebering off what thonk said, but, basially, napkin maths is that 232M would be eilgable to get the vaccine in total, once you consider people who can't get it or don't want it, it knocks the number to around like the 200M markish, maybe like 190M or something from what I recall seeing

tough cedar
#

oh idk then

mystic ermine
#

ofc, this is all generally napkin maths

tough cedar
#

yea idk if part of jroys 400 million number has been alreaady fulfilled

#

if it hasn't then it's def enough to cover all adults in the U.S

mystic ermine
#

and yea, there is that Q of "what does a vaccine cover"

#

Like, does the order include just a single dose or both

#

heavy level of "fuck knows" in all of this, really

tough cedar
#

probably 1 dose if i had to guess

eager hawk
#

i should just quickly get my EMT license so that i can get a vaccine soon lol

tough cedar
#

otherwise they'd have no reason to order 400mil

mystic ermine
#

I mean, from my understanding, they where expected to have a gooood few mill in surplus

eager hawk
#

Frick the GOP as per usual

#

though id be happy to hear any valid perspectives from yall for repealing an estate tax while barring direct stimulus payments

faint radish
#

well the stimulus payments are happening...

#

and we shall see if any ensuing inflation causes the fed to have to raise interest rates to > 20% which will surely plunge the country into a recession

#

the amount of money the gov has put into the economy during the pandemic is WAY larger than the different between actual economic ouput and potential economic output

#

I think after the 2008 recession, the gov put about half the difference between actual and potential economic output in to the economy via stimulus

#

its multiple times the difference now

foggy fern
#

I think the main point of the May 1st thing is the logistics to let you find a pharmacy or other vaccine site and get scheduled from a federal service

eager hawk
#

we are in a bubble for sure, it seems like we will probably have some long term economic consequences, though i am no economist. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CURRCIR but you haven't answered my question on if the repubs are hypocritical for their estate tax repeal

FRED Economic Data

Currency in Circulation

#

either way it seems like by fall we'll be able to return to fairly normal social activities, so that's good :) i want to go back to in person learning so bad

#

much faster vaccination process than in Japan

#

i don't think the majority of healthcare workers there have gotten the vaccine there yet

#

and they're not prioritizing healthcare workers over the elderly

#

which is a difficult dilemma to face

eager hawk
# faint radish well the stimulus payments are happening...

no republican voted for stimulus checks but they're happy to provide estate tax cuts in the trillions, which only benefit the billionaire class. this is the hypocrisy i was trying to get to. i also understand and believe you that the funds used for stimulus checks could contribute to an impending and inevitable economic doom, but that wasn't what I was trying to talk about, sorry for the confusion.

ebon seal
#

'people who don't want it' shouldn't be a thing

pure jetty
#

it's a thing for all vaccines

shut vine
eager hawk
#

^ actually true I think, I made a quick uneducated assumption

shut vine
#

Also yea vaccines for 100% of the adult population were locked in before Biden.

eager hawk
#

^ that im not aware of

shut vine
#

Initial dose and booster, read a breakdown of the numbers back in Jan.

#

Was around 450M total doses.

eager hawk
#

Operation warp speed made zero contribution to vaccine development afaik

shut vine
#

Varying companies is all.

#

Yeah it wasn't really about the development it was about preparing for distribution.

#

If you look at the numbers of people vaccinated in the USA per day the number has been on a steady climb since Jan 10th or so.

#

As supply improved it's slightly sharpened, but you can see that between Jan 2nd and 10th too.

#

Oh wait

eager hawk
#

You probably are right about distribution, but the development process has been falsely claimed by trump that he contributed to it, and furthermore did a chaotic and lackluster job at suppressing covid cases until these vaccines have rolled out

shut vine
#

Warp Speed actually did provide billions directly to vaccine companies.

#

J&J 1B Aug 5, AZ 1.2B May 21, Moderna 1.6B Aug 11, Novavax 1.6B July 7 2020, Merck 38M April 15, Sanofi 2.1B July 31.

#

So that's combined 6.4B

eager hawk
#

Those are just only agreements to buy those doses.

shut vine
#

That was direct funding

#

That was not order related at all

eager hawk
#

Warp speed made no financial contribution afaik with vaccine development

#

No I do not think you have that part right afaik

shut vine
# 
As of August 2020, eight companies were chosen for funding of some $11 billion to expedite development and preparation for manufacturing their respective vaccine candidates.[26][27]

The vaccine developers, different vaccine technologies, and treatments receiving government research funding were:
eager hawk
#

A Pfizer spokesperson told Forbes that while it is proud to be one of various manufacturers participating in Operation Warp Speed and had reached an advanced purchase agreement with the U.S. government “the company did not accept BARDA funding for the research and development process. All the investment for R&D was made by Pfizer at risk.”

#

^ quote

shut vine
#

Pfizer isn't in my list

eager hawk
#

Dr. Kathrin Jansen, Pfizer’s head of vaccine research and development, told the New York Times that their team “were never part of the Warp Speed” and had “never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone.”

shut vine
#

That's irrelevant to Pfizer, they did not get funding

eager hawk
#

Ah my bad

shut vine
#

I do remember reading a reason why on the government website but no clue what it was

eager hawk
#

Let me double check on the other vaccines

shut vine
#

I'd really like to find the associated bills

#

J&J also got 0.5B in March 2020

#

Yeah July 22 USA handed 2B to Pfizer for an advanced order.

# 
It's true that Pfizer, unlike some other pharmaceutical companies, did not accept federal money for research into a coronavirus vaccine. Pfizer, unlike these competitors, is not getting payments up front even before proving its effort has been successful.
#

So Pfizer turned down the funding if I'm understanding that correctly.

# 
While Pfizer did reach an advanced purchase agreement with the U.S. government, the company did not accept (Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority) funding for the research and development process. All the investment for R&D was made by Pfizer at risk. Dr. Jansen was emphasizing that last point.
eager hawk
#

Nice, you were right

shut vine
#

Yeah, the facts were very warped by the media because the Oompa Loompa's were involved.

eager hawk
#

I can agree with you that the government under Trump's administration hasn't received enough credit for the financial contributions made to these vaccine development companies by leftist/liberal media

shut vine
#

Biden even made out there was nothing done by the previous Administration to secure vaccines and distribute them in the town hall. Even though by then 10+% of adult Americans had been vaccinated by the first dose.

eager hawk
#

Yup "mostly false"

shut vine
#

They really need a "it's a load of malarkey" option for those now.

eager hawk
shut vine
#

In the town hall he flat out said there was "no plan".

pure jetty
#

for delivery of vaccines I don't think they had a solid plan yes

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

but outside of the normal partisanship, biden certainly hasn't done harm

shut vine
#

Well Biden hasn't really done much better with a plan if that's the case.

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

how does biden's admin suck?

eager hawk
#

Sucks under leftist standards, one of them being the $1400 over $2000 schenanigans

pure jetty
#

$1400 was in addition to the $600 in december

#

messaging was clear on that

eager hawk
#

Biden didn't specify that in his campaign claims afaik

shut vine
#

The fact 50% of the relief bill isn't really related to covid relief though. Seems pretty effective. 😉

pure jetty
#

so the his admin sucks because of a single congressional issue?

shut vine
#

It sucks because it's the career oligarchs still running things.

pure jetty
shut vine
#

But that's not really going to change anytime soon.

eager hawk
shut vine
#

I see.. so who decided to slip in 1 trillion of wish list items to the bill without the Dems signing off on it?

pure jetty
#

the $15 minimum wage is a horrible policy

shut vine
#

Like they're geniuses

pure jetty
#

was never going to pass anyway

#

not something you hold up a relief bill for

shut vine
#

I thought I did pass tbh

pure jetty
#

no

shut vine
#

Did Biden reject it?

pure jetty
#

huh no

#

the bill did, just without the minimum wage

tough cedar
#

no

shut vine
#

Ahhhhhhh

tough cedar
#

2 dems didn't want it in there

#

so they had to take it out

shut vine
#

I gotcha.

pure jetty
#

it's not just the dems

#

even if the dems had the votes in the house, they don't in the senate

shut vine
#

Yeah, well Kamila didn't want it in there evidently either.

pure jetty
#

this isn't kamila

eager hawk
#

Because Joe Manchin

pure jetty
#

they need a super majority in the senate

#

forget manchin

eager hawk
#

Kamala, spell her name right please.

tough cedar
#

oh did they?

pure jetty
#

you need 2/3 to pass anything in the senate

restive seal
shut vine
#

No..

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

filibusterer my duderino

eager hawk
#

Yeah filibuster needs to go

pure jetty
#

in the meantime you effectively need a 2/3rd majority vote to pass anything

foggy fern
#

Oh hey I finally got my George Soros money

pure jetty
#

ie get more dem seats in the midterms :))

foggy fern
#

Err, I mean I got the $1400

eager hawk
#

Though*

pure jetty
#

the republicans let it

foggy fern
#

50-48 iirc

#

50-50 still would have passed but some people missed the vote

pure jetty
#

they could have called for a debate and led it into a filibusterer

eager hawk
foggy fern
#

Nope, it was reconciliation, can't filibuster it

pure jetty
#

or yeah that

foggy fern
#

That's why they couldn't put the $15 minimum wage in though and why the money they're giving out can be garnished for unpaid taxes, fines, or child support

#

It counts as a tax credit or something

shut vine
#

Yeah my point about Kamila, is the parliamentarian took the minimum out IIRC. The President of the Senate can override that.

pure jetty
#

not that simple

eager hawk
#

*Kamala

pure jetty
#

if she overrode it, it goes back for debate

restive seal
#

Are you deliberately misspelling her name? thonk

eager hawk
#

It seems like it

pure jetty
#

and you're delaying a RELIEF BILL

#

over a horrible economic policy

shut vine
#

Oh I agree.

foggy fern
#

If she overrides it then it goes to a vote which only needs a simple majority iirc

shut vine
#

It's a horrible policy.

pure jetty
#

that being said dems should just pass it because it will get midterm votes

foggy fern
#

So they could kept it in there with like 1 extra day of debate

shut vine
#

Minimum wage increases adversely affect the most vulnerable.

pure jetty
#

not a hill im gonna die on

foggy fern
#

But then they'd lose 2 votes

restive seal
#

They should pass a better minimum wage bill, that gets it higher faster and keeps it going up instead of stuck in place again.

foggy fern
#

This is the longest we've gone without increasing the minimum wage since it was created

restive seal
tough cedar
#

then why do so many economists agree that a wage increase would benefit the most vulnerable...

#

to the tune of 27-32 million

shut vine
#

I mean, if they can't get a single job it probably adversely affects them more...

tough cedar
#

27 mil being a number from congress themselves and 32 being the number EPI gives

shut vine
#

So many also think the other way, it's a pretty contentious issue.

eager hawk
foggy fern
#

iirc the numbers are like 750,000 will lose their job but 4 million will get a raise

pure jetty
#

i mean we're talking about a federal minimum wage, the states should set their own min wage to something that would make sense for the standards of living in their area

eager hawk
tough cedar
#

but they don't

shut vine
tough cedar
#

and if they aren't going to the feds should do it for them

#

because they don't want to even though it needs to happen at this point

foggy fern
#

$9/hr isn't enough anywhere in the country

pure jetty
#

agree that they don't, but the solution to that isn't setting the FEDERAL floor to something too high, you fix it with tax policy

foggy fern
#

The federal minimum should be at least be livable somewhere

shut vine
#

In both directions.

tough cedar
#

i was working with someone in retail who was making like 11 an hour and and he was full time and he said he was still losing money

pure jetty
#

offer tax credits to states that set their min wage to an appropriate level

#

or vice versa

#

much better solution

eager hawk
tough cedar
#

well 18

pure jetty
#

and expand medicare

shut vine
#

It's a careful balancing act, and messing it up by giving everyone a lollipop is not probably the answer.

tough cedar
#

22-25 is with productivity increases too

foggy fern
#

They were considering doing the tax credit thing to get it in without having to override the parliamentarian but decided getting the details sorted on that would take too long

pure jetty
#

that is much better policy than a $15 minimum wage and it makes more economic sense

foggy fern
#

Instead we got Universal Basic Income but only if you have children

restive seal
#

Time to start dating!

pure jetty
#

lul

eager hawk
#

And @shut vine please spell Kamala's name right, just like how you would with any other person :)

foggy fern
#

It's supposed to only be this year but they're already talking about trying to make it permanent

eager hawk
shut vine
#

Giving people a chance to get work and develop their skills and advance themselves.

pure jetty
#

UBI is a bad solution too, feels like a bandaid, expanding social services feels like a much better option

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

health care, affordable housing, etc

shut vine
#

No I'm not, I'm against that. I just think the market is the best place to decide that, government has a history of screwing it up.

restive seal
#

The market has a history of exploiting workers.

#

The market has a history of killing workers.

#

And the government is the problem here?

shut vine
#

Like the number of times the government "tried to fix" this issue and it just gets worse.

pure jetty
#

lol i love the "grumple grumple look how bad the government runs the post office" argument

#

government runs things fine when it tries

shut vine
#

I mean the government has a history of those things too.

#

What's your point?

foggy fern
#

Whelp, my $1400 is gone already 😛

restive seal
#

Nicely done!

tough cedar
#

that was fast

shut vine
#

Spent it on helping the poor or?

eager hawk
foggy fern
eager hawk
shut vine
#

I'm for empowering people as individuals to not rely on the government.

pure jetty
#

lol

tough cedar
#

raise the min wage then yee_fuckin_haw

restive seal
tough cedar
#

if not living at least one that doesn't require you to work 80 hours a week

shut vine
#

I'm so glad you're convinced.

eager hawk
#

Its*

restive seal
pure jetty
shut vine
#

So historically in America, specifically in the 1800's. The lower class became significantly better off even thought he wealth gap increased.

pure jetty
#

even with wages, you could say that market forces will drive the wage to a living one, which would be true in normal cases but if an oligopoly controls the labor market it won't

#

so you need a body with actual power to keep that in check

#

hint hint nudge nudge the government

foggy fern
#

The census seems to only have data on this back to 1959

pure jetty
#

people themselves don't have the institutional power to control the market in a fair way

shut vine
#

The issue with a UBI, or minimum wages is, that people who run stores realize people are less careful with their money when those things happen eventually, and start charging more because they can.

#

Everyone wants to increase their wealth, live better, etc.

#

Why wouldn't a person selling groceries want to do the same?

shut vine
pure jetty
#

heh

#

if an oligopoly controls the local labor market who's gonna compete to drive up wage cost

foggy fern
#

Life expectancy is not a good stat to look at unless you're looking at adults

eager hawk
shut vine
#

Would you concur that would be a reasonable indicator that quality of life has improved?

eager hawk
#

Due to medical developments

foggy fern
#

Until relatively recently in history it was dragged down hard by infant mortality

restive seal
eager hawk
#

Yeah interestingly Morgan Stanley came out with that claim ^

foggy fern
#

I mostly view life expectancy numbers as a sign of technological improvements

shut vine
#

I would be more than willing for America to try it.

#

I'm not American, doesn't affect me.

foggy fern
#

Australian minimum wage is $15.39 USD

shut vine
#

I personally feel like it would have varying effects depending on your state, and that most people would be surprised (including me) by the consequences of doing so.

eager hawk
eager hawk
shut vine
#

Yea, the minimum here is 15. Our poverty rate is 8%.

eager hawk
#

Yeah why are you against having minimum wage in the US $15 then lol

#

oh wait, "yea" as in you take back your original claim?

pure jetty
#

to be fair the US economy works very different

shut vine
#

I am not taking it back, I'm saying I'm willing for the experiment to take place.

pure jetty
#

aus is much smaller, doesn't have vast fluctuations in cost of living

shut vine
#

I agree. It's one of the points I generally make when someone said it worked / didn't work in x country.

eager hawk
foggy fern
#

Projection for 2021 US poverty rate was 13.7%, with the stimulus it's projected to be 8.7%

shut vine
#

You can't really compare two countries, it's not wise to assume policies that work in one will work in another.

foggy fern
#

I guess we'll see in like 18 months

eager hawk
#

But yeah cost of living varies significantly within the us

pure jetty
#

which is why state level minimum wage is better solution

#

what would be awesome is a city level wage

shut vine
#

Yeah I can agree with that 100%.

#

As in that it's better than nation wide.

#

Especially with a country like the USA.

pure jetty
#

i think a better solution federally is a tax credit for states that follow a wage formula

eager hawk
#

Btw @shut vine do you have a fair explanation for why minimum wage in the US hasn't increased to $22 if we adjust for inflation

pure jetty
#

and even setting the federal floor to $10/$11 seems fine too

foggy fern
#

GitLab used to work that way, they had a salary for someone living in San Fran then adjusted it based on comparing SF cost of living to wherever you live

eager hawk
#

Yeah San Jose has a different minimum wage than california, it's been $15 here since two years ago

pure jetty
#

mansion said he would probably vote yey on that ($10/$11) too

shut vine
#

I am of the same school of thought as JRoy in this particular case, you can't assume each person is living in an area with the same costs.

foggy fern
#

So if you lived in rural Montana you'd make like 40% what someone in SF doing the same job would do, even if you were on the same team

#

iirc they got rid of that in 2019 or 2020

pure jetty
#

i imagine that looked unpopular

shut vine
#

It's also why generally I'm not for sweeping controls like this, you can't account for all the differences.

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

very bad optics wise

foggy fern
#

Who am I kidding, all of Montana is rural kekw

pure jetty
#

lul

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

yeah i suck with names lmfao

#

all people i don't know

#

i usually only talk about them, not spell

restive seal
#

I'm sure there's two houses close enough together that count as suburbia, Amaranth!

eager hawk
restive seal
#

We can move on from that 😛

pure jetty
#

i did once because i copied his spelling and i didn't know D:

eager hawk
#

I think we can all agree here we can set the minimum wage to be a wage livable somewhere, as I think amaranth said :)

#

Federal minimum*

shut vine
#

I think a reasonable alternative to minimum wage increases would be giving tax credits to companies who pay employees above the cost of living index.

eager hawk
#

Oooo

#

That's actually another good idea

pure jetty
#

eh i don't think we should reward companies for doing that

eager hawk
#

Though I see some issues with that too

pure jetty
#

reward the states who set their own limits as fair ones

foggy fern
#

Better raise the corporate tax rate like 1% first so you have a stick to go with the carrot

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

small biz would be good

shut vine
#

Yeah but you have areas of states where the cost of living is vastly different to other areas.

pure jetty
#

that's my primary concern with that

#

but then large companies have no incentive to make wages fair

tough cedar
#

ok rural people will make more money then

pure jetty
#

which is why giving states a tax credit is better

tough cedar
#

like, the companies there can't just leave...

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

if they follow x formula or something

tough cedar
#

thats untapped profits if they leave

shut vine
#

The tax credit should be focused on jobs within a certain percentage of cost of living index.

#

Say 20%.

eager hawk
pure jetty
#

no no i mean states need to follow it

#

i don't think the government should be enforcing it at the point of companies

#

too much can go wrong

shut vine
#

Yeah as with anything, my idea is very flawed until you take the time to very carefully plan and implement it.

pure jetty
#

best to tell states "hey if you set your minimum wage to this number which is derived from this formula, you'll get $x from the federal government"

shut vine
#

You can't haphazardly implement legislation to try and fix a complicated issue and expect amazing results.

eager hawk
shut vine
#

I don't know, do people like individuals who can't guarantee they know how to fix x problem? 😛

#

Another important consideration with any large impact legislation, that is intended or seemingly intended to help people; is if it has bad consequences it's often still very hard to fix/revoke later.

eager hawk
#

Run on the platform that you at least won't lie with the optimism lol

shut vine
#

Used the wrong word, like the idiot that I am.

eager hawk
#

Although I'm pretty sure your political positions vary with his, I'd recommend reading Obama's new book if you have a chance, it was a good read and for someone who's interested in making a social impact it's especially a must read :)

shut vine
#

I am not much for books but I may give it a shot.

#

Does it mention Saul Alinsky at all?

foggy fern
#

And what of that Nobel? He is incredulous when he hears he has been awarded the prize.

“For what?” he asks. It makes him wary of the gap between expectation and reality. He considers his public image overinflated; he pushes pins into his own hype balloons.

mystic ermine
#

I think that the US needs like a graded minimum wage, for example, somebody leaving school is expected to earn less than somebody who has been in the work force

#

bumping the minimum wage will kill jobs and put a good hit on those who the minimum wage is supposed to benefit

#

many minimum wage jobs are also not really designed to be forever jobs

#

I think that government should have programs to help those in need, but, there comes to be some responsilibity on you as an individual to progress your own worth

#

Increasing the minimum wage means that you increase the minimum amount of burden a company has to take on, that $15 minimum wage also turns into like $18 or something that the company ends up paying

#

I think that if you wanted to increase minimum wage with less of a hit, you'd need to incentivise small businesses to be able to allow them to take on the hit, which last I heard was like a majority of the employee force?

#

once you've been working a few years, nobody, should be earning minimum wage, and we should aim to fuck off any company which doesn't pay it's living workers a living wage; Now, some guy who graduates school and goes to work in a small mechanics, the mechanics have to train him, they have to provide stuff for him, they have to take the risk that if he fucks something up and breaks it, that's more they've gotta pay for, all you really do by increasing the minimum wage is raise the bar of burden for small businesses which means that those who are more vulnerable are left twiddling their thumbs waiting around for longer; more businesses and potential for companies to start up and make it would make it easier to get people into a job which can progress onto something well paid

sterile verge
#

E

smoky hedge
#

But currently, the US minimum wage has not adjusted for inflation in a long time, and is not at all a living wage

mystic ermine
#

minimum wage is not meant to be a livable wage, and I don't think it needs to be, not unless you consider making it graded to allow those in the not-so well off communites which generally get stifled when minimum wage goes up

smoky hedge
#

Why should a minimum wage not be a living wage?

#

It should be possible for every full time worker to not be under the poverty line from their wage

mystic ermine
#

Personally, my belief is that a minimum wage job should be able to support you, am not 100% sure on where that needs to be, but, being able to afford a roof over your head and such for me is a good bar

#

Minimum wage 100% needs to be increaased, but, I guess it's where you define 'livable', i guess

#

I mean, poverty measures are fucked anyways generally

smoky hedge
#

I mean, I'd consider a living wage as a wage where you can support yourself

mystic ermine
#

I mean, for what I see, many believe that the minimum wage should generally be able to support a family

smoky hedge
#

Like ideally that'd be the case, yes - but I honestly think the US is too far gone to get to that point

#

Ideally two minimum wages (eg, both parents) could raise a family

#

But that still completely screws over single parents, etc

mystic ermine
#

I mean, I personally think that there's too much fixation on minimum wage vs tryna actually get people off minimum wage jobs

smoky hedge
#

The video covers that a fair bit