Nah, it sounded like a native word. Think it was "Pakapanyu" or something similar.
#politics
shut vine
I just can't figure out how to spell it.
It doesn't appear to be on the DOD website either
smoky hedge
Yeah fair - either way probably some semi tropical area, but still Oof 😦
faint radish
I'm confused about this story about a WaPo reporter showing Sen. Murkowski one of Tanden's tweets.
people are saying its bad journalism?
WaPo statement https://twitter.com/kriscoratti/status/1365040361572339714
This just strikes me as yeah, ok, nothing new. Reporter asks about smth, senator doesn't know what they are talking about, reporter offers to show senator, senator is under no obligation to look, but chooses to... where is the issue here?
tough cedar
internet trolls trolling i guess
faint radish
It’s more than trolls tho... I mean look at some replies. It shows advocacy of a position if you ask a senator to comment on a tweet they know nothing about, and then show them to get their reaction?
That sounds more journalism-y than asking, getting an “I haven’t seen it answer” and just shrugging and saying, well we can never know then
foggy fern
This is kind of shitposty but wow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20kRv_jW7-E
brisk cradle
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/25/how-some-families-could-get-more-than-14000-in-new-covid-relief.html
Well, it's no universal health care or a $15 minimum wage (alreaady a major compromise). But the U.S. is effectively playing with universal basic income at a large scale.
If the Biden administration does bring in an effective UBI, then that's a stunning reversal of the constant slashing of the U.S. social safety net.
In all seriousness though, looks like my mom is still awaiting her $1,400 from Uncle Joe. She already spent the $2,000 and $600 from Daddy Trump.
near glen
this isn't a meme channel.
wraith grail
Full on love the USSR kinda Marxist-Leninist or something else
I don't know if there's a no-communism-discussion-because-it-quickly-degenerates rule, but all I have to share regarding it is the current state of post-USSR nations (a shitty situation for everyone) and what marxist-leninism actual entails:
Marxist–Leninist states have been described as authoritarian, or accused of being totalitarian, for suppressing and killing political dissidents and social classes (so-called "enemies of the people"), religious persecution, ethnic cleansing, forced collectivisation and use of forced labour in labour camps.
None of that relates to marxism or communism as originally proposed, and Marxist-Leninism can be used only as a power grab for a dictator to coerce ideologues into support of a noble idea and then turned on the very same opinionated people, killing them for not thinking exactly along state lines.
and in case you mean communism as Lenin intended: Marxism–Leninism was created after Vladimir Lenin's death during the regime of Josef Stalin and entailed more mass-slaughter than the holocaust
plush crypt
I don't know if there's a no-communism-discussion-because-it-quickly-degenerates rule
It is fine so long as it is a healthy discussion; anyone participating in bad faith, to troll, whatever else may be met with punishment at staff's discretion
wraith grail
aight sounds good
I know this one will go exactly that direction, but i suppose it's worth a shot in being reasonable
near glen
The main issue i have with these topics is that ppl don't understand that there is more than two sides, it's a scale
Extremism is always bad
Extreme communism is bad, but, extrem capitalism is really bad too
So you gotta find a nice middle ground
wraith grail
If someone came in and said "Not memeing, I'm a unironic Nazi" would they be banned? Nazis targeted specifically (mostly) the Jews, but Stalin targeted the poor, the ukranians, the ones who had their own ideas, even assassinated people he thought might have their own ideas
I don't get why Stalin's 'interpretation' of the communist goal is idolized or even permitted while Nazism (arguably Hitler's 'interpretation' of capitalism) is shunned completely. They both resulted in the unjust death of millions of people
near glen
Nazis targeted not only jews, also "sick" ppl, like ppl with disabilities, or basically everything that could taint the good german blood
wraith grail
Stalin did too
near glen
Which is fun considering hitler isn't even german
wraith grail
if you were sick or disabled you're a drain on the economy - vanishing time
Hitler also targeted the Roma and everyone else that didn't fit his agenda - as did Stalin
i don't get the acceptance of Stalinism and the rejection of Nazism. Either both should be permissible (obviously I do not believe either should be permissible) or both should be rejected (which is what should actually happen)
near glen
Well, i am sure it would be possible to have communism without killing ppl like that ^^
Since capitalism actively kills too
wraith grail
That's entirely beside what I'm trying to communicate - I'm not saying communism is equivalently heinous to Nazism, I'm saying Marxist-Leninism (Stalin's deformed breed of communism) is
it's not possible to have Marxist-Leninism without killing people like that any more than it is to have Nazism without killing people like that
wraith grail
The communism of Stalin basically, yeah
one of the most evil men I've studied. Fits right in with Hitler and Mao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism–Leninism here's the wiki on it
smoky hedge
Eh would not personally compare Hitler and Mao
Most of the big problems with Mao were due to failures, not malicious intent
Like not gonna say he’s great - but Hitler was way worse
torn wadi
If someone came in and said "Not memeing, I'm a unironic Nazi" would they be ban...
Nazis targeted specifically (mostly) the Jews...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMqfO2ZAOA
light sentinel
i run a communist server... but its modern day china communism
torn wadi
We all do.
blazing junco
Brother Tito says we all do bro.
loud flax
@wraith grail do you think Stalin was born evil? What about Hitler?
winter pendant
are genetics not a big influence on personality and decisions later in life, though?
near glen
and I mean, influence
social stuff, education, parenting etc
loud flax
so in other words, a breakdown of standards led to him being the person we knew him to be
loud flax
perhaps in one sense, but he led his party well for what that's worth
even if it was inhumane
blazing junco
who did
near glen
leading with force is easy
loud flax
@blazing junco we were talking about Hitler
blazing junco
Hitler led his party decently, but not that well. Ultimately the distrust in his generals brought his swift downfall AFAIK.
He was a good orator though.
loud flax
btw idriz, i saw your conversation with me4502 on the github decision
it sounds like a benign decision tbh, and it's an answer to a noble goal, but I believe it's the wrong answer
blazing junco
i mean they kinda killed two birds with one stone, one on hand it's very convenient and on the other hand it can be used as a sign of support
loud flax
yes but what's next? are we going to start canceling people for using that word?
blazing junco
no? nobody's been cancelled for it using it I don't think
loud flax
not my point of whether people have, but things like this will lead to something like that
already has with the N word, and other words
blazing junco
yeah I'm not sure what you're on about lol master's an a-ok word(see: Masters' Degree)
loud flax
which btw, i'm not a fan of that word myself either, but i don't think people should be cancelled. I think anyone who is upset/angered enough to say that word should be able to engage in dialogue about how they feel, since something led them to say that word
blazing junco
github wanted to be a little more inclusive and saw that it could be offensive to some people but it also saw that people want to change the default repo name, two birds one stone
loud flax
and master's degree isn't offensive?
blazing junco
and master's degree isn't offensive?
yes i said that it isn't offensive
idk what your point is with "humanity is offensive"
loud flax
what i mean by that is everyone has done something that has offended someone
blazing junco
yes welcome to earth
loud flax
btw i wanted to respond to what you said about master's degree not being offensive. I found something interesting there
do you think that if the academic world changed the wording for master's degree, it would be more inclusive?
blazing junco
no because anyone can get a master's degree
loud flax
so the context doesn't make it offensive then
blazing junco
i think you're reading into it too much lol. if github thinks master is more inclusive all the more power to them
loud flax
so, bearing that in mind, do you think github did what was right? even though the context that master is used in isn't used in an offensive way?
mystic ermine
I just think it's pointless BS'ery which I've yet to see anybody outside of the "offended for you" communities care about, if somebody of color or somebody actually offended by this, I'd like to inquire why, but, I think more time would be spent throwing time into actual issues in society rather than the name of pointless things 🤷♂️
blazing junco
i think github did what was right by allowing me to name my default repo anything i want. i don't care about their wokeness because they're a corporation scoring points
somebody might care, but i don't
near glen
yeah, thats the point, they gave you choice
loud flax
a point I very well agree with, Cat
too often it seems like those who aren't offended by something are dictating what is offensive to minorities
blazing junco
i'll put it stupid simple
i haven't seen anyone care about the main branch on github being called master
loud flax
me neither
blazing junco
but i have seen people care about not being able to choose
mystic ermine
Yea, the fact that they added a config option to it so you can default to dev or whatever the heck you want is a nice thing
loud flax
too many projects use master for developing, and release (or variants) branch for released code, so it's nice that we can choose this now
blazing junco
so like does it really matter what their secondary reason is
mystic ermine
I just think that the whole master vs main thing is dumb and github coulda done more to raise society by investing into programs in the communities they're pretending to be helping
blazing junco
oh for sure but you gotta remember that github is a corporation chasing $$ they don't really care
loud flax
well cat, it's a movement now, and it's hardly stopping
Dr Seuss apparently got in the crosshairs recently
blazing junco
of who
mystic ermine
God, I'dlove to just own a piece of land somewhere and go off grid, get away from basically everyone
mystic ermine
to be fair, getting info these days is fun
loud flax
indeed
blazing junco
can't wait for a time when we can plug our brains into a computer and just create our own worlds
loud flax
Bill Maher, as I imagine most of you already know who he is, has taken some jabs at my own Christian denomination. Do I want him cancelled? No, I think dialogue is the better answer, and I believe he has the freedom to say what he wants in this regard.
blazing junco
Since when do we protect people from the consequences of their actions?
loud flax
well cancel culture does just that
it thinks it's doing that, it has this moral framework and yet in the end doesn't ultimately know what it wants
blazing junco
Cancel culture wouldn't work if corporations didn't care about their bottom line. They do. So just don't say stupid shit and you'll be fine.
loud flax
but isn't it society that is to blame for cancel culture? where do you think it came from?
oh, i see what you mean
no it doesn't hit just corporations
blazing junco
It hits individuals which hits corporations those individuals represent.
Sort of like having a sign that says "I'M A PIECE OF SHIT" hanging on your head and going to companies asking for a job.
loud flax
well, to be fair to your point, youtube kow tows to corporations and in a sense makes it a lot less "broadcast yourself"
blazing junco
If the company hires someone with a sign like that over their head, the company looks bad, which is a nono because look bad = no money
restive seal
"Cancel culture" labeling really feels to me like some conservatives being upset that actions have consequences and wanting that to stop. To be clear, I'm saying this is from a subset of conservatives, not doing some blanket blaming here. From what I can tell it's just a label used to group together "people may have gone a bit too far in trying to be inclusive" with "racist guy said the N word and got fired" in an attempt at arguing the person in the latter example is being persecuted by a larger entity when really they're just a racist getting what they deserve.
Making "cancel culture" a thing lets these angry conservatives, who are upset they can't be bigots or promote violence without consequences, turn normal behavior of society into some perceived evil cabal of "cancellation" that they can now rally against. This is just the new "political correctness" and is, once again, nothing worth giving so much attention. Continue pushing for societal improvement through more inclusive words and actions, disregard those who would rather live in the past.
blazing junco
There's times it can go too far, namely when somebody gets slandered for having said something when they were a mere teenager who was being edgy or said something that was funny at the time but has changed with recent times.
But other than that, talk shit, get hit
restive seal
Yeah, there's always going to be situation where folks go too far, but when those situation get used to justify "[person] shouldn't lose their twitter for promoting violence" I get upset. 😄
loud flax
i know someone that has voiced extreme hatred of Christianity, and this man is essentially talking about my faith, something that I consider very central to who I am. It disgusts me, it offends me, but in the end I don't believe he deserves to be mistreated, as angry as his words make me feel. He instead should be shown a sort of kindness and character that transcends the Christianity he thinks he knows. I believe that should stand as an example of where we should go, not this cancel culture. We need to refocus and focus on what has been neglected the most: love, which is far stronger than any hatred ever was.
near glen
If I celebrate that 2019 was the biggest year ever for church leavers in germany, and everything indicates 2020 was even better, and currently in my city you can't even leave the church since all dates are booked out weeks ahead, am i a christianity hater?
pure jetty
Cancel culture is more focused towards social values rather than religious ones
loud flax
i was using that as an example that can be applied to anything
pure jetty
For example, I haven't seen someone be canceled exclusively for holding values of christianity
near glen
I don't care about your faith, I do care about the institution of the church
Organized child molesting
And they don't even face juridical consequences because they are a pseudo state
mystic ermine
I mean, last I knew it was hiding behind "We'll deal with it"
and the government/police is just like, k
loud flax
the message I was trying to convey through that (and sorry if I didn't state it explicitly enough) is if someone says something that offends you, I'm pretty sure there is something about them that you can greatly admire, so it's not the single thing about them that is offensive, it's about discovering the things about them that you do like, and then the things they do that are offensive will start to mean less to them
pure jetty
I mean cancel culture doesn't work if it only offends one person, only if the the majority of people with power do
loud flax
it's the same kind of thing i've seen played out in watching talks from Daryl Davis and how he attempts to reconcile with members of the KKK, who he actually helped to eventually leave the Klan as they were shown a level of friendship they never saw when they were oppressing minorities
it's so easy to focus on the things we dislike about someone, and leave out everything that can bind us together to them
mystic ermine
The issue is that "cancel culture" is basically more seen as a culture in which it's more acceptable to basically throw them out of society for their past or something often seemingly trivial to some people vs actually attempting to address the sore points
loud flax
yeah
mystic ermine
the problem with this culture is that it doesn't attempt to address anything and just further divides and adds more flame to the fires of division rather than attempting to help people learn and grow up
at best you ruin somebodies life and they somehow but extremely unlikely see the light, at worse you ostricise people to their thought closets because of their ideas/views on things
torn wadi
<@!347959633518002177> do you think Stalin was born evil? What about Hitler?
Man is a reflection of three factors: heredity, environment and time.
lusty ibex
the fuck happened here
pure jetty
unironic communist
wraith grail
What stopped the famines was Stalin taking the food from satellite states and leaving them to starve
I am sorry, I can't genuinely continue this discussion. There's a great murder parallel between Stalinism and Nazism and while I didn't want to believe that anyone with full knowledge of the effects of either would genuinely support them, I guess I was wrong
blazing junco
holy shit that dude is a literal communist
valid steeple
communism 
torn wadi
Bro!
blazing junco
Bro, he's welcome in Yugo.
torn wadi
Never go full Yugo bro!
blazing junco
Fact!
eager hawk
All I hope is that people here haven't fallen for the Fox News fear-mongering trap of labeling AOC and Bernie as communists/socialists. There's a significant difference between their democratic socialist ideals and the commonly referenced forms of socialist government from the past century
wraith grail
Like fighting to keep humans alive instead of expending money and energy for the express purpose of killing them? Yep!
eager hawk
Folks, this dude seems to be just very knowledged on communism/socialism, that does not equate them to believing in those ideals, i think.
blazing junco
I mean his reddit is DarkBolshevik
eager hawk
Don't make assumptions ʕ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʔ
plush crypt
Let's not shitpost in here, please
wraith grail
Don't make assumptions ʕ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʔ•̫͡•ʕ•̫͡•ʔ•...
No u #politics message
eager hawk
Oh lool my bad for not seeing that
faint radish
Everything will be fine. Trump will run for the house, get elected speaker, and impeach Biden and Harris, then he’s back to POTUS. That.... would be something.
eager hawk
Everything will be fine. Trump will run for the house, get elected speaker, and ...
No ❤️
near glen
I don't think the republicans are dum enough for that
faint radish
🤷
I think if the Dems can’t get anything through, they’ll lose in the mid terms, As pretty much always happens so republicans will get back the house and or senate.
Its funny to look at some lefties talking about how the “Senate process” shouldn’t be an excuse to not get things done.
eager hawk
Stupid filibuster
faint radish
That’s one step away from “Pah... who needs a Congress with its ‘process’. Just have one person decide everything. That way stuff gets done”
Processes.... always slowing thing down
faint radish
I haven’t seen too many “Joe Manchin is just one dude, he shouldn’t have the power to decide what relief should be given out” yet... but I’m waiting for it. If people do start saying that... what is the point of actually electing anyone? Just elect a letter R or D.
wraith grail
eager hawk
I haven’t seen too many “Joe Manchin is just one dude, he shouldn’t have the pow...
I don't understand how a single elected governor can overthrow the votes placed by representatives that represent the majority of voters in the US. I haven't looked into it much yet of the details tho
faint radish
I don't understand how a single elected governor can overthrow the votes placed ...
??? I’m not following.
Manchin is the most conservative Democrat senator right now, and is expected to not want a $15 min wage, stimulus checks, etc.
blazing junco
I think you'll see a similar trend in most of the world around that time.
faint radish
Which for budget reconciliation, makes him the deciding 50th vote
eager hawk
Ohhhhhh
Oh makes sense, lol as I said I haven't educated myself on the situation, I didn't know it was that he voted the other way so it was 49-51
pure jetty
eager hawk
Go japan whooo
eager hawk
Modern medicine for sure
blazing junco
This is literally part of a wikipedia entry about soviet propaganda lol
In that same wikipedia entry that was linked
pure jetty
they're a commie
blazing junco
That's a little humorous
pure jetty
what do you expect
proper representation of facts and applying moral systems ethically on reality?
blazing junco
LOL
That wall of text is great without a citation
Ok let me check
Wow this guy is real credible
Grover Furr
blazing junco
yes
pure jetty
he should not be viewed as objective
tough cedar
uhh his citation isn't in anything particularly relevant?
pure jetty
Tauger has also been discredited to hell and back by a shit ton of historians
tough cedar
couldn't he be citing that they imported tractors and manufactured others?
eager hawk
Oh makes sense, lol as I said I haven't educated myself on the situation, I didn...
@faint radish as in i had an originally incorrect assumption that there was already majority vote to have the bill pass, but a representative had the singular power to block the bill from passing
Idk why I thought that was but that's the context of my former ignorance lol
blazing junco
The guy you're literally saying he cited claimed this wasn't an artificial famine
So which one is it
Did they burn the crops etc etc to cause famine
Or was it a natural famine
No this guy literally argued that the yield was so small it couldn't have been artificial
Yes so did they burn the crops or did the crops fail
Proof?
This guy literally doesn't mention kulaks at all
also tauger himself:
He did say that "the regime was still responsible for the deprivation and suffering of the Soviet population in the early 1930s", and "if anything, these data show that the effects of [collectivization and forced industrialization] were worse than has been assumed".[26]
that embed is gigantic
Nah see
lol
pure jetty
mfw googling things in real time to support your point
and a PhD doesn't make whatever the person said true
plenty of accredited people say dumbass shit
blazing junco
no you tried to make it sound more credible by including it
pure jetty
Alright here, this guy has a PHD in history.
then why would you say that
if it holds no weight in the merit of the claims why would you point it out
pure jetty
not the case at all either
blazing junco
A russian author with a phd obtained in russia talking about a soviet famine
pure jetty
a PhD is not a measure of one's credibility
shut vine
That's an argument from authority, it's a logical fallacy.
It's a bit like me saying "well god said this". If you don't believe in the authority, it's irrelevant.
shut vine
"It comes from the bible which makes it more credible"
It's an argument from authority.
No that would be saying majority opinion decides facts, just as fallacious.
pure jetty
who cares about semantics, bottom line is a certain degree doesn't mean everything from the person is more credible
blazing junco
Right now I'm getting blasted by years and supposed terrorist attacks but
I can't find anything
yeah I literally can't find anything about these terrorist attacks
the west must be really good at hiding them
or i must be a terrible googler lol
This guy graduated from the Higher School of the KGB USSR.
Yeah, because I can't find any references on anything he says
i literally can't find anything
Oddly enough I did stumble on this as I was searching some terms up there lol
Apparently it was being perpetrated by the OGPU, which that paper you sent glorifies
shut vine
So is the argument that collectivism solved famines in Russia therefore it's good?
tough cedar
lol just cite one of the sources wikipedia cites
shut vine
Wikipedia is as credible as a random author we've never heard of.
blazing junco
That's fair
shut vine
Since there is a single source, and it doesn't have citations, I'd argue Wikipedia is more credible.
I meant Wikipedia.
shut vine
Yeah, I mean, the primary source he's suggesting doesn't have any.
shut vine
That sentence is as trust worthy as one person making a statement, yes.
blazing junco
yeah i know anyone can edit wikipedia
but there's quite a few citations down there
shut vine
Of course. See how long it remains. 😛
Wikipedia is not a source of truth but a source of information.
blazing junco
THE FIGHT OF THE BODIES OF THE OGPU AGAINST PEASANT TERRORISM IN THE CONDITIONS OF THE CRISIS OF BAKERY AND COLLECTIVIZATION OF AGRICULTURE
That's the title of your thing lol
ku·lak
/ko͞oˈlak,ko͞oˈläk/
Learn to pronounce
nounhistorical
noun: kulak; plural noun: kulaks
a peasant in Russia wealthy enough to own a farm and hire labor.
sounds like a title that's saying the OGPU was fighting Kulak terrorism
Ok
dude
that's the literal word definition
I even excluded the opinion part
it's
the literal word definition
what does kulak mean then
shut vine
I kind of agree with him on this point, they tend to push new definitions that suit them.
But it's still on him to prove his positive assertions.
blazing junco
if that's the case then I'd like to know what a kulak is so I can read this paper properly
The anti-Soviet activity of the well-to-do part of the peasantry, the kulaks
THAT'S IN YOUR PAPER
tough cedar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak lol citing wikipedia again
shut vine
Whoops. 🙂
tough cedar
The word kulak originally referred to former peasants in the Russian Empire who became wealthier during the Stolypin reform from 1906 to 1914. During the Russian Revolution, the label of kulak was used to chastise peasants who withheld grain from the Bolsheviks.[2] According to Marxist–Leninist political theories of the early 20th century, the kulaks were class enemies of the poorer peasants.[3] Vladimir Lenin himself described them as "bloodsuckers, vampires, plunderers of the people and profiteers, who fatten on famine,"[4] declaring revolution against them to liberate poor peasants, farm laborers, and proletariat (the much smaller class of urban and industrial workers).[5]
blazing junco
look I didn't want to cite wikipedia because he clearly will ignore it all as western propaganda
his own paper calls kulaks peasants
shut vine
Ah yes, the evil Kulaks kept the things they owned.
blazing junco
??????
bro
what
I can't fathom this
you sent that paper as definite proof that they were burning crops themselves
shut vine
So you've decided to cherry pick the parts of said paper that suit your ideas?
shut vine
It's almost like you have confirmation bias.
blazing junco
the entire paper is based on what a kulak is
and that they were terrorizing the OGPU
blazing junco
because you sent it as if it was true
as if that paper is definite proof
actually look
if the definition of a kulak there is wrong
the entire paper falls apart.
Yes.
But since the definition is wrong, the entire paper is wrong.
Because they're talking about different "kulaks".
Not the ones you're talking about.
No, no no
look
you're saying kulaks sabotaged
then you say the definition of a kulak in the paper is wrong
shut vine
So what you're saying is, if the definitions in the premise are wrong, then you can't apply the substance of the paper to a different definition?
shut vine
A bit like I can't take a paper written about physics and apply it to sociology.
Seems rather radical if you ask me.
blazing junco
Look. I'll break it down.
shut vine
I'm being sarcastic, obviously
lusty ibex
blazing junco
You say kulak sabotage.
You send kulak sabotage paper.
Kulak definition.
"But kulak definition wrong"
That means other kulak.
That means other kulak sabotage. Not one you thought.
Make sense?
shut vine
Also I'd argue just because one kulak sabotage, does not mean all kulak bad, and just because one kulak sabotage, doesn't mean he didn't have a justifiable reason to do so.
blazing junco
Does it?
blazing junco
Dark.
shut vine
I didn't no.
blazing junco
The paper defines Kulaks as peasantry.
So if they have a different definition of peasantry entirely
shut vine
But I don't have to read it to say the argument is utterly stupid.
blazing junco
Doesn't that mean you're talking about another group of peasants
shut vine
You can't group people by identity and condemn them for that identity.
It's a bit like me saying Russians killed people during the war, so they're all bad, lets get rid of them.
blazing junco
No.
It's like saying Russians are people who live in Russia
and then the paper you send says Russians are people who live in China
shut vine
Oh yea the definition part sure.
blazing junco
yeah
shut vine
I meant the idea that some kulaks engaged in terrorism or sabotage, cannot condemn all of them as a group.
blazing junco
Okay. A kulak is a kulak.
So you agree they had land.
Let's proceed.
The date was between 1929-1933.
The wikipedia page with more citations than your paper says.
I'm sorry, but your paper reads like blatant soviet propaganda.
You can't keep your story straight either.
...proof?
that paper has no citations
shut vine
I mean, if that's the burden of proof you need to execute people.. they caused something bad to happen.. then everyone is going to die under your rule.
blazing junco
so i'm gonna ignore it a bit
Who caused the famine
Proof?
besides the paper with no citations that has a different definition of kulak from what you call a kulak
shut vine
So lets assume a few things relevant in this situation. Lets say there is a government and it has the responsibility to the people to keep them safe etc. Lets say through "proper planning and no hint at mismanagement" they manage to get themselves into a situation where all of their people are going to starve. Then they blame a singular group for all of the problems. Are they a) taking responsibility and doing something to solve it b) looking to blame someone else for the situation they got themselves in.
thorny wing
You are all quite patient
blazing junco
i'm procrastinating
loud flax
well Z, I have a big appreciation that you let a channel like this exist
in servers with 100 or 10 times less people there are rules against talking politics/religion
shut vine
I think having a channel is a very appropriate idea.
loud flax
is it because there's a solid moderation team?
shut vine
That way people can still talk about it, but anyone can ignore it. 🙂
blazing junco
Okay. Now we're on the same page.
loud flax
or is it that we're just mostly very tolerant adults haha
pure jetty
lmao
blazing junco
Man
plush crypt
it's because we want adults to be able to talk about politics, and we have no problems telling those who can't behave to fuck off
blazing junco
for a guy with a PHD he sure is inconsistent with definitions when writing a professional paper on such an important subject.
but I'll let it slide and read this one instead
plush crypt
that one has no citations either
shut vine
Blaming people because they hoard their possessions for the problems a government gets their nation into is absurdity.
blazing junco
that one has no citations either
get used to it
shut vine
So, does that make collectivism good then?
shut vine
I'd also be interested in what you think about the people in Russia who had dissident views, i.e. that collectivism was bad; that were jailed with the rapists and murderers, and had those rapists and murderers put "in charge" of them.
Effectively suggesting having a different opinion makes you lower than murderers and rapists.
blazing junco
Ah. Douglas Tottle, the writer of this book, was invited by the International Commission Of Inquiry Into The 1932-33 Famine In Ukraine. His book was examined, but it looks like he never responded(there's no citation on this part, if he did respond, there doesn't seem to be any information related to what his response was at all)
tough cedar
tankies lol ¯_(ツ)_/¯
blazing junco
that was entertaining
Were they actually kicked/banned though?
Or did they leave on their own?
pure jetty
if they were moderated against it was in internal channels
shut vine
I am slightly dissapointed, I kind of was interested in his view in a way similar to schadenfreude.
shut vine
Yeah that's why I was asking specific questions.
plush crypt
Last moderation event was over 2 hrs ago
blazing junco
kek
thorny wing
they left on their own Today at 4:17 PM - can confirm there was no staff involvement
torn wadi
👏
blazing junco
👏
loud flax
so he made a comment previously that the bible wasn't an authority
i'd assume he would also have the view that Jesus was not an authority either
torn wadi
Former communist claps a communist.
lusty ibex
that guy has to be a troll
all of his social media profiles were created in either jan or feb 2021
has literally never posted in a channel other than politics
blazing junco
Honestly? Probably not. He seems to know russian well
pure jetty
i don't see who he could be trolling
if you look at his twt and reddit he's clearly invested into this shit
blazing junco
not only that but the dude found russian sources in like the corner of the internet
that may just be googling skills but like
wraith grail
The only Russian sources that fight for him are in the corners of the internet
foggy fern
i'd assume he would also have the view that Jesus was not an authority either
Sounds right to me
shut vine
The point was specifically that his argument was from authority, which is a bad argument since we may not believe in the same authorities.
Bible/god was used as an example to try and get him to see the error in his assumption that a person having a PhD inherently proves they know what they're talking about. Unless we both agree that is true then it's an irrelevant point. He was just too dense to realize.
foggy fern
Someone with a PhD in a subject has been vetted by the rest of their field as knowing what they're talking about
Someone with a PhD in biology probably doesn't know shit about politics though
Or at least not more than anyone else
A PhD in biology doesn't mean you're always right about biology topics but it means absent overwhelming evidence I'm going to believe you over some random person
shut vine
Yeah that's fine, but saying it's valid in an argument with third parties is a logical fallacy.
Both you and the third party have to agree the authority proves credibility.
I'd also argue there is a difference between a PhD from the US scientific community vs a PhD from the Russian scientific community, or one from 80 years ago vs today, etc.
From what I could tell in this instance, the only evidence he had for his positive assertion was his opinion, a lone paper from a Russian PhD of History without citations, and that the paper was credible due to it having a PhD author it.
I should say allegedly written by a Russian PhD of History. Since it was only a Google Drive doc anyone could have written it. Doesn't look like it was published anywhere Google can find it, but that could theoretically be intentional by either Russia or Google.
blazing junco
Someone with a PhD in a subject has been vetted by the rest of their field as kn...
Gaining a PHD in History during the Soviet Union doesn't seem too credible
foggy fern
The comments on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c86oX8aXk are kind of amusing
This ice was already in the water, it floating off and melting won't raise sea levels
safe flint
@blazing junco @torn wadi brothers.
torn wadi
Fact.
near glen
idk many of the other flags, but I agree with the sentiment that turkey is everything evil combined
(altho I obviously dont agree with the depiction of gay as evil there, and I think in turkey ppl are more interested in goats tbh :P)
safe flint
Me and @torn wadi after reading that ^:
blazing junco
(altho I obviously dont agree with the depiction of gay as evil there, and I thi...
wtf
blazing junco
<@!589898090174218243> <@!219443401974611970> brothers.
Fact bro!
faint radish
@foggy fern I’m about 90% sure that icebergs melting do NOT raise the water level. I had to test this out myself to be sure. I filled a glass of water up, put a bunch of ice in it to simulate an iceberg, noted the water level, came back after they all melted, and the water level was the same.
Now ice melting that ISNT floating will raise the water level because it’s not displacing any water to begin with.
(Unless your comment there wasn’t mocking a comment)
Either way, it’s interesting
eager hawk
icebergs that are above sea level that have never melted in ages that melt causes the sea level rises. especially frozen freshwater coming from Greenland
afaik, i took APES but it's been a while lol
narrow ore
icebergs that are above sea level that have never melted in ages that melt cause...
not icebergs (icebergs are defined as ice that is floating in open water)
but glaciers and ice sheets (like the Greenland ice sheet) that sit atop land; when they melt they increase the sea level
faint radish
icebergs that are above sea level that have never melted in ages that melt cause...
I think only stuff that isn't floating that melts makes the sea level rise. Otherwise its just stuff that's floating with displaces water which makes the level be already risen. if that makes sense
foggy fern
My comment there was explaining why all the YT comments were garbage
I learned the ice cube in a glass of water thing when I was like 8
Archimedes' principle and all that
near glen
Was about to say, lol
And I mean, that doesn't take the fact away that it's heavily concerning
And that we might have to deal with a dying gulf stream as a result
foggy fern
Eh, we're pretty sure this break had nothing to do with climate change
Big chunks break off fairly regularly although perhaps it wouldn't have been this big without climate change
Hard to say
near glen
Chunks are getting bigger and it's happening more frequently, while less new ice forms
shut vine
The other strange thing is the antarctic ice has steadily been increasing.
foggy fern
I thought ice coverage was increasing but ice mass was decreasing
aka it was getting bigger but thinner
Also boomers will not stop talking about mr fucking potatohead
I've never heard anyone complain about it, I didn't even know it was a thing other than them telling me about it
But all of the ones I've talked to over the past couple days have brought it up
Oh and it turns out the whole thing is bullshit anyway https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/media/fox-news-potato-head/index.html
faint radish
Didn’t hasbro say they were gonna change the brand to remove Mr. not the actual toys. I think they clarified that later. Idk what their initial announcement said
tough cedar
either way the ice increasing in the antarctic isn't offsetting losses elsewhere on the planet
shut vine
Yeah the problem is it's relevant to a whole picture since it's a global problem. Not specifically saying it counteracts it, and it has only marginally increased (as in the amount it increased by on average) since the 70's. The other issue is most measurements only give indication of square coverage of ice, not cubic.
brisk cradle
Wrote to my senators about overriding the parliamentarian on the $15 minimum wage being struck from the new Covid relief bill.
shut vine
It's the President of the Senate who ultimately decides to accept the parliamentarian ruling if my memory serves me correctly.
Or the President pro tempore.
brisk cradle
Well, I figured it was worth a shot.
Believe it or not, between all the corporate donations, they do read constituents' emails...
shut vine
Oh yeah I know.
My point was Kamila agreed with the parliamentarian. So either she agrees with the ruling itself, or didn't want the wage rise to go through.
If they vote, she's unlikely to tie break.
brisk cradle
But now is the best time to do the $15 minimum wage - and mind you, $15 is already a massive compromise from the progressive/social-democratic wing of the party.
shut vine
Well assuming my understanding of how the parliamentarian rejecting a part of a bill works is accurate.
brisk cradle
There's already movement towards a $20 minimum wage!
shut vine
Why would doing it specifically now be the best time?
brisk cradle
Because it'll be a part of a must-pass bill impacting the budget.
shut vine
I actually think it would be smarter to get the relief bill through, get people vaccinated, and get things under control to see where things stand before deciding on something that could impact the unemployment rate negatively.
brisk cradle
But on the other hand, raising the minimum wage is something Biden ran on.
Being able to claim victory on a major campaign promise would be a big boon to him.
shut vine
I also think there are 2 or 3 Democrat Senators who express reservations about a 15 minimum. My gut feeling is they wouldn't get 50 votes if they tried now.
Which would be bad for a relief bill.
brisk cradle
Of course it is important that new relief is passed and vaccination efforts pick up speed.
But $15 minimum wage's benefits would extend well past the end of the COVID-19 pandemic.
shut vine
I agree. He did indeed run on the 15 minimum wage, and gun control legislation, fixing covid, etc.
It depends on how the economy adapts to the minimum wage hike as to if it'll have long term benefit. Most countries that have done it have unemployment rise. But each country is different.
It's also a lot harder to reverse legislation like that than it is to implement it.
So if it has a large impact in the negative sense on the lower class, it could be rather devistating.
I'm not saying it absolutely will, though.
pure jetty
$20 is a bad idea
$15 is pushing it
Minimum wage is a minimum wage not a living one
Personally I'm in favor of raising it to $10 federally and having states set their own minimum wage to something that reflects the cost of living in their state
ie person working in the middle of the US doesn't need to make the same as a CA worker
that being said, expanding federal medical programs (covering more people) and other related social programs are much more effective than raising a minimum wage
Minimum wage is an extremely ineffective way at improving the standard of living on a large scale
tough cedar
the feds could also increase access to federal medical programs by raising the min wage to 15 with the money they would no longer have to spend on food stamps/other social programs
pure jetty
heh
faint radish
LOL. Imagine a government saving money
Btw, shoutout to the Minnesota department of transportation on their new snowplows... I think all the names are actually solid names.
Although “Darth Blader” is kinda close to “Darth Bladder”
shut vine
Darth Blader lmao
faint radish
I think I like Snowbi Wan Kenobi the best
Well, after Plowy McPlowFace. That’s always a winner
tough cedar
well i guess they wouldn't be "saving" the money, they'd just spend it on something else instead
they just wouldn't have to spend it on food stamps or whatever other social programs there are for people below the poverty line
pure jetty
that probably won't translate the way you think it will
and even if it did, there are far worse effects of doing that
faint radish
I would think the poverty line would just go up over time right? Like if people have more money, stuff will cost more. Not instantly, but that’s how inflation works
tough cedar
that's why the min wage should be going up with inflation too...
pure jetty
social programs would fix most of this
the minimum wage is a horrible way to provide access to this stuff
faint radish
Is there a bit of a positive feedback loop in that though? Just an initial thought
(In raising min wage w/inflation)
tough cedar
no
pure jetty
with just make more businesses unprofitable, leaving only big ones which can either afford to take hits on wage loss or invest in automating jobs
shut vine
What effect does minimum wage increase to 15 have when a person is currently earning 10, working 60 hour weeks because they are barely scraping by, when the company can't afford to pay them any more than that currently?
tough cedar
a company would only have to raise their prices a tiny amount to compensate for increased employee costs
faint radish
Raising their prices means losing customers tho. So lots of companies would have less revenue in the end.
If you raise the price, you will inevitably price some people out of that good
tough cedar
not if millions of people now have more money to spend
shut vine
Yep they raise their prices. Which means the goods people buying with that 15 dollars, go up.
pure jetty
that raise in prices is not really too much to be worried about at $10 or $15
shut vine
It doesn't equate to that always. But something has to give, basically.
tough cedar
it causes an increase in price definitely, but it's just not that much
pure jetty
social programs are infinitly better
tough cedar
compared to the new buying power
shut vine
My main thing is it's a delicate balance.
tough cedar
sure, i mean the proposal is to raise it to 15 by 2025
faint radish
TIL or rather YIL, that the original minimum wage proponents back in the early 20th century, were the eugenics crazies who didn’t want a livable wage so the people who’s labor isn’t worth more can’t reproduce.
tough cedar
it's not an instant increase
shut vine
I'm not an economist, it's easy to say something will solve x or cause y, but it's a highly complicated problem.
pure jetty
economists seem to think the $15 by 2025 is safe
shut vine
Some do yes.
pure jetty
most do
tough cedar
most do and meta analysis of economic studies points to it being ok
shut vine
So most AEA members/ IGM members that are labor economists.
faint radish
pure jetty
EPI is quite right leaning
shut vine
Majority opinion doesn't make something correct either.
pure jetty
okay?
pure jetty
shut vine
We have enough studies of enough countries that have already tried it as examples to what affect it may have.
tough cedar
oh lol they're both epi
shut vine
The effects it has short term are the effects that will most likely affect the lower class too.
pure jetty
well whatever you could say it will cause the sky to turn purple
at the end of the day my position is just that this probably won't have the effect we think it will
shut vine
I agree.
pure jetty
and that the far better solution is increasing social programs
brisk cradle
the feds could also increase access to federal medical programs by raising the min wage to 15 with the money they would no longer have to spend on food stamps/other social programs
Indeed! Right now, the low minimum wage is subsidized by Medicaid, food stamps, and SSI - raising it would allow redirecting that money elsewhere.
pure jetty
it's better spent on the social programs
what's the point of giving people money they'd need to spend on those things anyway
brisk cradle
And we should expand them, too. For god's sake, I stan for Medicare for All - but at the present state, a minimum wage increase will take pressure off government programs.
pure jetty
Medicare for All is a bad solution too
medicare should just be expanded
people who can pay for medical or get it thought a full time job, should not be getting state medical
Medicare for All is unrealistic at best to get passed
brisk cradle
Personally, I'm more of an "all the above" person. Bump the minimum wage to $15 per hour, index it to inflation, and then do Medicare for All, perhaps even a UBI.
pure jetty
I'm for policies that have a chance at passing
you can't get the money for any of that stuff without massive reforms to our system which aren't logistically possible let alone probable
dusky raft
I'd rather remove health insurance from being the middleman of everything and opt in as a "credit" card setup
tough cedar
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gov-greg-abbott-lift-texas-mask-mandate-open-state-100-n1259329
dusky raft
hospital gives you bill, you give them insurance info, insurance takes care of things and returns you a modified bill.
pure jetty
what would that solve?
dusky raft
to be honest, I dont get what your asking, but I guess why, we have been removed from the process when the hospital sends the insurance info off.
what I am saying is the power should be given to the patient
not the government and insurance companies
pure jetty
you can pay the bill if you want to
i don't know why you'd want to do that if you have insurance
dusky raft
4 weeks later
im not saying why id pay for it as-is without insurance
and hospitals sure as hell know what they are charging, they just dont show the price until much later when you dont have to worry about it.
pure jetty
again, your insurance charges you a flat rate co-pay (in most cases)
so why is seeing how much the hospital charges so important
especially considering that insurance companies often have agreements to haggle down prices
pure jetty
????
people with insurance only need to pay co-pays
if you're talking about without insurance that's something else
but you're the one who brought up insurance
dusky raft
the above discussion was medicaid/medicare?
pure jetty
can you perhaps reword your initial point then
because I guess I'm not understanding it
dusky raft
Well, in regards to healthcare, and to try to make it stream into the past conversation:
I don't think government and insurance companies should have total control over your health, hospitals and other medical companies have been stupidly up charging for years now. My idea is to remove the layer that is insurance that hospitals hide behind and give deals to and give the consumer an option to tack it on after the fact. Of course when they are better. I wouldn't want to worry about being tossed out when I realize I cant pay. And much like a credit card, it can be used anywhere without having to deal with in/out networking nonsense
im saying think of take out, you order the food and get the bill, you have the option to use your credit card, and is strongly recommended to.
but dont think of being 100% credit card like, because with that your just paying the full price back and then some.
pure jetty
ah okay
that seems fair
i would also be interested in state run hospitals
i can't think of any big arguments against it rn
dusky raft
no, however I wouldnt ban private companies from doing business in the sector, it just doesnt make sense.
dusky raft
banning businesses from operating in the medical field would destroy what medical advancements the US has brought to the table.
pure jetty
agree
dusky raft
what the US should have done is a fair pricing policy, prices from one person should not be different for operations and other things in the same location.
and to prevent $35 ibuprofen pills...
dusky raft
I'm not against the government providing help towards those that need it, but I dont want government to take over the health industry
pure jetty
i don't think that would happen
dusky raft
because like schools, hospitals would start charging more and more
dusky raft
no, and the bill would go right back to the poor and working class
mystic ermine
last I saw, most of the medical costs are written off in the insurer/hospital discounts they give one another
pure jetty
yeah that's correct
mystic ermine
the only people paying the full price is the cost of the insurance itself
if that discount was forced to be passed on, the cost of insurance and medical care in general would more than likely plummet to all shit
mystic ermine
In some form of hope, the hope would be that the insurance + medical discount issue would be resolved, which would basically either push down the costs of insurance through the whole "they gotta pass that on so no need for it", or people basically stand up against the insurance companies
a few people I sorta listen to here and there had had instances where they had like a few days of non-coverage between switching providers, done something stupid like fallen off a board and strained their wrist and been given some expensive af bill, "how the heck do i pay this... no, I don't have coverage for a few days", and magically the bill is like 10% of what it was
dusky raft
oh, insurance can get very expensive, I was on good healthcare a few years ago and I paid somewhere around $100 every 2 weeks, when I left that job, they demanded $580/mo to keep the insurance
makes me wonder how much the company I was working for was paying per person
because damn, thats expensive to keep it
mystic ermine
medicare for all is something i'd like to see, especially given that I've had friends fucked over by obamacare, but, there's like, a few issues I'd wanna see resolved before/at the same time
dusky raft
I dont think medicare for all is going to be good, given government track record
mystic ermine
the concept of the government acting as some magical money pot for private institions to name their fees, or something like the NHS where waiting lists are crazy and the entire system is underfunded and understaffed, eer...
pure jetty
again medicare for all/free at the point of service is an awful policy
not only will it never happen
it would be giving people who don't need free healthcare, free healthcare
mystic ermine
Well, yea, that's part of my concern, many governments couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery
dusky raft
most great healthcare systems have been hybrids
pure jetty
as well as destroying private sector
mystic ermine
I mean, in the UK, you got the NHS
but, pretty much any company of note offers some form of private health insurance
dusky raft
doesnt the NHS control everything?
mystic ermine
Not entirely
pure jetty
all full time jobs in the US are required to provide health
which is 50-70% of the workforce?
and then there is the super rich
just give healthcare to the people who need it
it's so much cheaper
it's crazy
dusky raft
yeah, and it doesnt have to be good, some companies choose shit healthcare either because its the only one they can find in the area or they dont want to be fined.
sometimes both.
mystic ermine
I mean, the stupidity is that none of these legislations ever think of people 'on the breadline' so to speak
Like, they'll often set some sorta like budgetary limit, if you earn over X amount, you're not entitled to this program, which excludes like a good % of people who really need access to that program
people literally suffering to all shit because the programs they've been told are gonna be in place to help them, they're not qualified for
dusky raft
I'm not opposed towards government insurance, but I dont think it should be the only option nor for everyone
mystic ermine
i'm just too used to government programs being 20 pages of paperwork designed to trip those eligable up or those who really need access to programs being excluded by other means
dusky raft
I think there is going to be a hidden cost just to administrate the thing. student loans didnt help make college affordable
mystic ermine
student loans are a golden money pot is the issue
it's a constant cycle, gov increases size of pot to allow more students to attend college, colleges raise fees to take advantage of money pot, gov increases size of pot even more to allow more students to attend collage...
dusky raft
20 pages? try 2000 or 9000 pages when it comes to the US.
yeah, colleges double dip into government money, both because of student loans and the government directly giving them money.
mystic ermine
Over in the UK, we have a loan system where you're not gonna pay anythinb back until you're earning so much, and some aspects are assed on parents income which is a pita when you're estranged and gotta prove it, but, there's also a cap to how much you can get for tuition loans which means that uni's are basically limited to the same fee across the board
But, don't worry
Colleges are non-profit institutions /s
dusky raft
and some colleges here are like fucking resorts...
mystic ermine
apparently rock walls are basically the new swimming pool
dusky raft
yep
gotta have the swimming pool, fitness center, indoor tennis court, arcade, and all you can eat buffet.
mystic ermine
it's all a massive money pit and people are too stupid to see who the real winners/losers are
dusky raft
yes, trade schools is what should be invested into
hell, I went to one for high school
the primary education system is utter crap
mystic ermine
The moment that the government says that loans will be capped, fees will drop like... erm, I got no nice analogies here
dusky raft
investing in vocational would be amazing, since knowledge can be applied to the working force
colleges wouldnt like that though
they would rather teach people useless crap or strain people to the point they leave
mystic ermine
there was this one company which offered private loans which was sooomewhat similar to the uk system
they pay for your tuition and depending on the degree you go for depends on how much you pay back
dusky raft
ive met plenty of people who got degrees in fields and stated they cant find anything in the area
mystic ermine
if you go for a degree which is more risky, the payback term is longer given that it might take you longer to find a job, etc
but, either you end up with a job having paid back a good amount of cash, even in excess of your loans which allows for others to attend, or, worse case you end up with a useless degree
dusky raft
We really need to stop giving the notion that a degree is a sure pathway to success.
mystic ermine
I mean, one thing is that you often hear is that "I didn't understand the terms of the loan" type stuff
Like, there needs to be something which basically communicates that info to students
dusky raft
why? it makes colleges money for them to not understand and for them to blindly jump on board
mystic ermine
which is why I think a private for-profit company dealing with that might have some pro's, as they'll be able to say "Yea, that degree is worthless, why not go for X"
but, ofc, that takes money out of the colleges pockets, so, that's never gonna happen
dusky raft
nevermind the amount of liberal arts degree students I have come across
is there anyone that can tell me with job/trade that degree can be applied to?
pure jetty
haven't seen a real person with that degree
mystic ermine
I mean, google says that there are roles which it can be used for
but, I mean, all the jobs they list, it always seems like there's like a better degree or an apprenticeship which is likely out there, etc
dusky raft
yeah, again, this is why Id push for trade more, hell, even at high school id recommend it
considering your actually applying things for the workforce
mystic ermine
god, I went to highschool like 10 years ago
We actually got to use sanders
but, i think wood working in even HS over here is dying out
dusky raft
been 5 years for me, and man, I loved the IT course
I was doing quite a bit with server cabinets and such
mystic ermine
best we had was a cisco course which I never really got to mess around on too much as my family was too broke for internet \o/
dusky raft
hell, 10/10 moment for shoving a lenovo mid tower desktop into a 1u case.
oh, cisco was big where I went
it wasnt top of the line equipment, but it was up there with some of their newer models
nevermind access to dreamspark
there was an automotive class that brought in some very nice looking cars
mystic ermine
oh god, in training school, we had a CNC department, and I never had that on my thing ;-;
then again, we did get the joys of using lathes and milling machines
god, we where on the lathes once and one of my mates in my group was showing off and ended up sending the tool into the chuck lol
dusky raft
if there was a downside to having IT students run the helpdesk, it was lost laptops.
I remember going through inventory on laptops that were to be recycled, and couldnt find them all. It just happens every so often id find a laptop that was to have been tossed out hidden somewhere.
its like a damn infestation, one day ill find an IBM thinkpad t40 behind a desk, and next ill find a T60 in the ceiling, chilling there.
mystic ermine
I mean, for me, depends on the gist of "recycle"
like, if they where going to people who needed them, boooo
but, like, if they where going in a skip or something 🤷♂️
dusky raft
nah, straight towards the woodchipping machine.
mystic ermine
for all I see it, they saved them
Like, I had a t61 a good few years ago, sure, it wasn't a powerhouse, but, like, for people who need internet or word, give it out
it annoys me that there's so many people who'd be able to take such devices and use them for good and they just end up in a skip or shreaded
dusky raft
I got an old thinkcentre in the basement, damn thing was a rock solid machine.
just utterly refused to die
mystic ermine
only reason I didn't take my t61 with me when I fucked off to uni was because my family had already killed the charging lead and I'd gotten a used macbook and a desktop, sooo was just like no point
dusky raft
If I remember, it was one of the machines that was choking in wood dust.
mystic ermine
Well, yea, joys of business machines is that they're generally built to last
Or, well, used to be...
dusky raft
well, this thinkcentre has a habit of eating through ram sticks.
mystic ermine
only way to get businesses back is if the machines actually last, whereas consumers will just blindly return if it dies in like 3 years
oof
dusky raft
on reboot, there was a slight chance it wouldnt power on because of bad ram
very odd, because there would be no indications of bad ram
mystic ermine
oh god, I had this one computer which would rando fail to post
the fix? just reseat the GPU a few times
dusky raft
yeah, lenovo systems are great when they decide to work
ive liked HP a bit more when it comes to laptops, since lenovo isnt making bullet proof thinkpads anymore
mystic ermine
I think imma just stick to apple these days coz am a hoe
dusky raft
plus HP is more like apple when it comes to design
but internally, they do offer repair options.
which is great, I can service the battery, ram, wifi, and nvme storage
mystic ermine
I mean, I kinda dislike apple but then I look at all the other OEMs, It's just, unless I go for "just go back to linux", it's basically apple or go home for me
dusky raft
I will always go business
there is nothing in the consumer or prosumer lineups I like
eager hawk
hi i go to a liberal arts school
it's definitely not a degree you can use right away when you get out of college
but the education you go through will be very useful in executive director/leadership situations and makes grad/med/law school easier to get through
idk what this convo's been about let me scroll through
mystic ermine
I was looking at a list and there was dozens of job roles which is listed where I'd imagine that there are much better degrees which would make you more qualified for the job than a liberal arts
eager hawk
yeah as i said, nobody really makes a fortune or get into a great career straight after going to a liberal arts school, people then specialize into their field of choice and the rigorous education helps you out. (wait are we talking about liberal arts schools or liberal arts degrees? because i'm in a liberal art school, taking chem as my major, and taking liberal arts courses through my four years)
obviously, trade schools/IT bootcamps/specialized bachelor's degrees suit well for those who prefer them. but for someone who wants better prep and work on improving critical thinking/going interdisciplinary with taking courses before specializing like me, that works for those people.
now the topic of liberal arts degrees themselves, well again the degree itself isn't going to get far but the education you go through to get that degree makes the four years spent worth it. probably a good idea to think of liberal arts colleges/degrees as "it's about the journey not the destination"
mystic ermine
yea, it's more the degrees themselves and the optics that people apparently seem to have where it's gonna land you a job straight out of college
the payback on that degree is crippling to many families who don't realise that and don't go on to progress further either through their own choice or potential lack of means
dusky raft
its why I think putting off college may be better than to dive head first into it
or to explore other options
in the end, there are a lot of people struggling because of the choice they went to college because they were fed bullshit.
I dont want to devalue education, but something needs to be fixed everywhere on the education system
one size fits all education is a failure, and current day college is just exploiting young people into going into debt with government money
near glen
If you remove the debt part, it's just educating your ppl with government money, and suddenly it sounds great!
I wonder if any countries exist that do that 🤔
mystic ermine
meanwhile the not for profit orgs make an absolute killing on it
nothing like taking money from tax payers and using it to pay for rock walls and jets
mystic ermine
they're private institutions
dusky raft
Colleges here are fucking resorts
mystic ermine
average emplyee might not have a jet but the upper leaders of the places do
dusky raft
near glen
So like, just because you implemented it wrong doesn't mean that the general idea is wrong
mystic ermine
see, over here we basically have a limit which is also what the student loan offers
near glen
Because it works in many countries in europe
mystic ermine
You'd have to change the entire model of how education works in the US
dusky raft
It also comes out of your taxes
mystic ermine
which tell that to the uni's which are earning a metric fuckton a year
mystic ermine
See, the thing is that if it can be done properly, it's good for all and imho worth it
like, costs could be driven down substantially, and peoples college funds can go into savings or potentially even the economy as a wider thing
near glen
An investment into education is an investment into the future
mystic ermine
See, I kinda like the UK system as sorta a "middle of the line" system
pretty much all are protected in the system
near glen
What do you mean by protected?
mystic ermine
you don't have people in debt because of student loans
near glen
Isn't a loan debt? Lol
plush crypt
with some dumb tax calculator i found online, i'd pay only 6 per cent points less in tax in CA than Sweden, so it's not a lot higher 
mystic ermine
your 'debt' expires in 30 years wether you pay a cent or not, it's not considered for your credit score, and you only pay it when you're earing X amount a year
near glen
Oh and btw, do we have a student loan system (where you only repay half) here too, because just because uni is free doesn't mean housing etc is
mystic ermine
We have grants and loans here too
i got the max grant and loan because council estate family and estrange too, woo
my mate didn't get much in terms of loans outside of tuition as her father has a good paying job, but, her family was fine with that
dusky raft
To be honest, not too sure where california is sending the money, but I'm sure as hell it isn't to help the average us citizen
Whatever it is, it's not working for them
Also sweden doesn't strangle businesses
dusky raft
Less business regulations
mystic ermine
regulations which serve more to cripple businesses or complicate the entire process/require business to throw out more cash towards stuff which negates a lot of the gains of doing business
dusky raft
Also no minimum wage over there
near glen
Would germany "strangle businesses" by your definition?
mystic ermine
There was a guy who ran a bakery, which basically, he got fined from one regulation industry because his kitchen door opened one way, like, into the kitchen vs into the dining area
so, he paid to fix that
he then got fined by some other regulatory body because his door opened into the dining area vs the kitchen, so he had to pay that fine and then also put in an extra door as he couldn't gain a common ground with either body
near glen
Sounds like a fire exit door that opened the wrong that, that's actually rather important
mystic ermine
it was a bakery door, like the flappy thing
plush crypt
no minimum wage yet our wages are higher than the US minimum :D
mystic ermine
he got fined for it opening one way and then fined for the other way
did you start your first job with a degree or whatever or before? how much did you earn?
near glen
My first job was fixing printers at a local paper storage thingy, was paid 12.5 per hour
While in school
Min wage was 7 or 8 euro back then
But that doesn't really count, did only 4 hours a week anyways
mystic ermine
how much is a mcdonalds wage or whatever?
near glen
I would be surprised if dum chains like that pay above minium
So that's 9 euro or smth i think
yeah 60% of mcdonalds workers here earn minimum wage
plush crypt
mcdonalds at 18+ is minimum 10€/hr here
dusky raft
My state uses the federal minimum, but I haven't seen places use that, I've seen most around $11-13/hr
near glen
Well, be careful with comparing wages across countries
plush crypt
they follow Unionen's requirements, though, so at 20/22/something, it raises the minimum wage to 12€/hr
mystic ermine
yea, which seems to be sorta around the general area of others, but ofc doesn't consider cost of living, taxes, etc
near glen
I as a software dev earn 60k rn, in the US i would get like 90?
mystic ermine
Thing is that minimum wage is complex, some study stated that a bump to 15$ an hour would cost like 1.4m jobs or something
which, ofc, can't really say until it's actually tested
mystic ermine
the congressional budget office
near glen
That's another thing that's so fucked up with current capitalism, why do we need inflation? Why do we need eternal economical growth?
Would be so much easier without that to have a nice society
mystic ermine
well, as a society we're growing
try pooling the same monetary resources over the same number of people in 20 years time
near glen
Currently we are pooling all our monetary resource over 1% of the population so not much of a difference there 😂
blazing junco
That's another thing that's so fucked up with current capitalism, why do we need...
figure out something better
near glen
And use that money to build public infrastructure and education
That's what I mean cat, yeah
blazing junco
yeah that would work
but it's real hard to do that when people don't seem to support it lol
near glen
Most ppl support it
Just the ppl with money don't
And those are the ones buying the decisions
mystic ermine
and then you get to the people who are in charge of actually putting those bills into place
which is all the joys of it
near glen
Which is another good point: a good, transparent lobby register
mystic ermine
Issue is that until we get an average folk in charge, we fucked
near glen
Every time a politician and industry guy look at each other, i want an entry on some website with place, duration, topic and who paid
near glen
They can because there is no transparency
Lobbying in itself is important
Just need to remove the money and the intransparency
blazing junco
i reckon if there was transparency we'd see a lot less of it
near glen
And make sure all parts of the society can lobby equally
blazing junco
agreed
near glen
i reckon if there was transparency we'd see a lot less of it
So be it 🤷♂️
blazing junco
yeah i'm saying that as a good thing
near glen
Like, if you are willing, there a way
mystic ermine
Issue is getting those laws passed by those who benefit from it not being passed
near glen
But we had the conservative party in lead for 20 years non stop now
Of course there's no progress
mystic ermine
"speaker fees"
near glen
This election maybe is able to change this year tho
blazing junco
which country is this in regards to?
near glen
Our green progressive party is pretty strong rn and they could maybe form a coalition with the ruins of our labor party (they self destructed) and the left, that would be enough to not require the conservative party to be part of the gov
Germany
blazing junco
ah oke
idk much about german politics other than that those AfD guys look dangerous
mystic ermine
our labour party is joyously self destructing too
near glen
Just as dangerous as any right wing party
Or the right wing of the republicans or whatever
blazing junco
they seem especially dangerous though
mystic ermine
we just had our mayor resign last year as he was pulled into questioning for intimation and some other stuff
blazing junco
Why are nazis always so stupid?
near glen
Like even hitler, for a nazis that guy was actually a genius, thankfully did really obvious and stupid mistakes
"how about we invade russia, in winter, without winter clothes, while fighting the rest of europe on the west?"
I don't wanna think about how europe could look today if he didn't do that
blazing junco
that guy was a dumbass lol. he was a good orator but he ignored his top men when their opinion mattered most
and good thing he ignored them
mystic ermine
god, we'd miss out on so much
whooo do you think you are kidding mister hitler, if you think old englands dooone
eager hawk
they follow Unionen's requirements, though, so at 20/22/something, it raises the...
so wait you guys do have minimum wage? or don't? also where i live, cost of living is high so minimum wage is $15.25. High cost of living as in, single family 3 bedroom houses cost $1 million median lmao
plush crypt
we don't have minimum wage, but unions can require minimum wages for members
some companies honour these requirements for all employees regardless of union membership
eager hawk
i agree that there's too many students going into college thinking going there by itself gets you somewhere. obviously how you utilize the school's resources and squeezing the potential out of these colleges matter more. yup liberal arts colleges are not suited for everyone, not everyone needs to go through that rigorous education to succeed in life, and tech/trade schools are absolutely amazing options that have potential of getting you a comfortable salary
eager hawk
some companies honour these requirements for all employees regardless of union m...
ohh i see, yeah that level of trust/respect amongst people doesn't exist at a national level in the US, it's too big of a country with such contrasting racial/class/religious demographics, it's impossible to "unite" us all.
plush crypt
it doesn't mean the companies have to bow down before almighty unions or anything, just that they get really mad and will help any workers from that company in finding a better job
near glen
Proxi you need to explain the concept of unions, americans might not understand that
plush crypt
lol
eager hawk
unless you support democratic socialist politicians, you're basically presented with the illusion of choice between R and D when it comes to economic issues, unless the 2010 Citizens united Supreme court ruling can be overturned (which cannot happen with the 6-3 conservative majority) R and D are the same when it comes to economic interests, with so much corporate and super-PAC lobbying going on
eager hawk
Proxi you need to explain the concept of unions, americans might not understand ...
omegalul
near glen
In germany, basically everyone is paid using an union tariff
Even amazon has to deal with that
Unions are obviously still not happy with Amazon, cause why would they, but unions here are reeeaaally important
And they are basically the only lobby strong enough to oppose the industry
Because if industry fucks up, unions say fuck you and go on a strike and then nothing goes
plush crypt
they're not that important over here, but basically everyone is in one anyways
eager hawk
CEO compensation grew 1167% from 1978 to 2018, versus employees to 13.7% according to the article i posted.
plush crypt
it's nice to have that extra safety net when it costs you like 20€/mo
near glen
Unions also help you legally if you have issues with your employer and stuff
Really important tool
eager hawk
Elon Musk threatens his employees from forming unions, otherwise he threatens to fire them. i don't understand why so many people stan him, oh well i guess it's just all the genz and millenials who want to become billionaires no matter the ethical circumstances
near glen
I can stan musks vision while still calling out bullshit like that
But: opposing unions like that is pretty common in the US and especially the valley and tech in general
And idk why your gov let's that fly
If you fire somebody that was trying to form a union, and you have not a good reason, unions will drag you into court and win here
And then you gotta pay compensation and deal with the bad press
Musks criticism of unions seem to be they stop him from moving fast, which i can totally understand, but still not approve
dusky raft
@near glen there were a few reasons hitler attacked russia, and it's the favorite pastime the us is doing in the middle east, taking oil.
Germany only had so much oil in their reserves
near glen
The way he did it was still dum
dusky raft
The germans really overestimated the russian army
Because early reports showed the red army completely unprepared and incompetent
What hitler did that was stupid was using resources to kill populations meanwhile supporting a war on three fronts
eager hawk
I can stan musks vision while still calling out bullshit like that
fair points :)
near glen
We have basically two giant unions here
One that kinda covers tertiary second, and one that kinda covers the secondary sector
But there are many smaller ones for individual industries
(eg, two big ones in railway)
dusky raft
Public sector unions are utter cancer, while private sector unions can organize like a parasite, opting to use workers for the top level management gain.
Not all private sector unions are like that in the US, but a fair amount are
near glen
The two biggest unions here have both way over 2 million members
(out of like 45m working ppl)
dusky raft
I can understand why musk is wary of unions
shut vine
https://youtu.be/tRoAfeLEWvc
Yeah simple economics. If you make things "free" or "subsidized" people don't care or care less about the actual cost so the supplier knows they can just charge more.
brisk cradle
Reminder that the GOP is a fundamentally anti-democratic party. https://twitter.com/_waleedshahid/status/1366777785759465480?s=21
Democrats ain’t angels, but at least they are in fact a small-d democratic party in terms of policy, even if misguided
eager hawk
You just have to see all the voting suppression bills to already know how anti-democratic republicans are lol
brisk cradle
Yes. They are in the same quadrant as Spain’s Vox party, Erdogan’s AKP in Turkey, an Estonian far-right party all about committing ethnic genocide against non-Estonians, and Poland’s Law and Order party (PiS).
near glen
I still love that polish ppl decided to call it the piss party
vivid sentinel
deserves to be called piss tbh
removing peoples rights because they feel like it isnt a very nice thing to do
shut vine
They didn't even publish the methodology...
Oh never mind they did, it's just very convoluted
eager hawk
Lol different topic, I just learned that Japan has rules where you HAVE to change your surname one way or the other if you want to officiate a marriage. You can't have the hyphenated surname that some married couples choose. Even though there is significant majority support to remove this rule, the government doesn't act on it because it's comprised of old conservative men. The 121th ranking out of 153 countries in gender equality is showing -_-
Conservative party argues against it, saying it ruins a "sense of unity" with families
Arguments amongst conservative party supporters: "I feel bad for the child for needing to deal with two surnames" "It'll tear families apart"
bruh
shut vine
How is that remotely related to gender equality?
foggy fern
Isn't Japan one of the places where it's somewhat common for men to take their wife's name? It's based on power/prestige of the two families
shut vine
I mean my point is if it's ONE party of the marriage has to change their name, that is equal.
If it was the FEMALE party had to, that would not be.
eager hawk
You can say it's related with gender equality @ James, since currently 96% of these marriages end with having the male's surname. It serve as a continued implications that it's a patriarchal society. There's obviously more issues with gender equality (with the proportion of women in power hovering at 10%), pay gaps, sexual assault reporting/criminal justice issues related to it, but either way, I find it unnecessary in this age for Japan to uphold an archaic rule that you MUST choose one surname or the other for both parties