ah around noon
#politics
drifting arch
weary obsidian
pence went, rub that in trump
drifting arch
mf manchild is probably playing golf and pretending he's still relevant
stiff terrace
New president time
foggy fern
Hey, A-Rod is there
drifting arch
I am so ready right now
stiff terrace
No trump is having some kind of celebration of his own
foggy fern
Apparently his wife is singing or something
stiff terrace
At the same time window
stiff terrace
Someone explain what the fuck a QAnon is
drifting arch
and they think 1000s of pedophiles will be arrested at the inauguration and Trump will again take office as dictator
oh lord.
Just read the wikipedia page's first paragraph, it explains better than most ppl can
ddg! qanon wikipedia
loud meteorBOT
drifting arch
um
stiff terrace
I have to go to the dentist for a checkup and I didn’t realize it was gonna overlap with this stuff I want to watch
FeelsBadMan
meager ice
Wait is this happening now?
foggy fern
I almost had a meeting overlap with this today 😛
drifting arch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon
more or less, conspiracy that a cabal of satan worshipping pedophiles has infiltrated the government and donald trump is fighting said cabal along with Q, a "high-level government agent"
who posted on 4chan lol
and all the trumpsters believe it ¯_(ツ)_/¯
stiff terrace
Lol
foggy fern
Official inauguration time is in 5 minutes, iirc
meager ice
Shit i have a meeting at 12
drifting arch
sounds like a joke, but it is not
drifting arch
"bit before noon"
should be here in the next few mins
harris just arrived
you should be able to see the start of it, at least
drifting arch
yeah that's "The Storm"
from QAnon
they think at the inauguration right after Biden arrives, the military will swoop in and arrest everybody
yea, pretty much, just like the dude who keeps predicting the end of the world
"it'll be in 2012"
"oh no wait, miscalc sorry "
"2016"
"oh no wait ..."
sweet canyon
Twitter
near glen
Don't forget, today is the day we stop talking about the cameo person from home alone 2
sweet canyon
aoc going to post a tweet saying "he gone" and pull 3M likes 😂
drifting arch
INAUGURATION FUN FACT: The President does not receive the White House Wi-Fi password until the oath of office is completed
this is unacceptable.
we must change this policy.
Biden arrived 
HERE WE GO
foggy fern
Apparently that's a big problem this time, they don't get to start moving shit in until noon and normally there is a parade and lunch with Congress to give the movers time
drifting arch
I thought they were already in process bc trump just up and left to florida around 7-8am
foggy fern
I think Trump would have to invite them in and as of last night he had not done so
drifting arch
oof
drifting arch
lol
I really don't get how people can be....so brainwashed
it's literally another 4chan bamboozle
and they got the entire republican party this time
Madam Vice President Elect 🥺
faint radish
I think that space force flag does look pretty cool
drifting arch
yes that was one good contribution, we did need a new branch
foggy fern
Starfleet logo was just ripping off the Mercury program anyway, iirc
drifting arch
According to an article on Star Trek's website, the Starfleet emblem is "a direct descendant of the vector component of the old NASA (and later UESPA) logos." The design also resembles a golden pin awarded to NASA astronauts in the 1960s, per the article.
but meh
still looks sexy
faint radish
oh did I miss it?
well then im prob wrong, I just thought smth was off and figured it was that
drifting arch
did you see the marine captain giving it, or did they cut or something?
WAIT YAY OMG
faint radish
lets see if they do the "So help me God" bit
foggy fern
Why wouldn't they? These two are Christians
drifting arch
they did indeed
faint radish
apparently the first 26 presidents didnt, and they were all probably more religious simply because they existed back in da day
foggy fern
pfft, I know the first few were definitely less religious
faint radish
I totally thought GW started the so help me god thing
cause that's at the end of quite a few oaths
foggy fern
But in general even as we trend down on church attendance and people who say they believe people are more likely to attend church now than when the country was founded
Most of that shit started after WW2 to show we aren't like the godless commies
faint radish
well wait, 26 presidents didnt, that's still before WW2 right?
yeah, theodore was 26
so wilson was first?
weary obsidian
but what if we are godless commies
foggy fern
Of course a baby picks that time to start crying
Fucking babies, what are they good for?
foggy fern
Family bible, like 130 years old
drifting arch
President Biden <3
foggy fern
wikipedia updated?
sand shale
I'm confused
drifting arch
literally .5s after he finished yes
sand shale
Inauguration is already happening, but it's not 12 EST yet?
drifting arch
they said "just before 12 EST"
near glen
Let's get it trending, reposting...
sand shale
I'm happy for the US
drifting arch
Those were a very dark 4 years
drifting arch
wtf lol, they let Kamala Harris's stay i think
nope they reverted both yikes
HUH
ok they wanna wait
two minutes
ok, whatever
sand shale
heh
weary obsidian
well shes sworn in is why
faint radish
so is biden
drifting arch
yea, but wikipedia wants to wait exactly until noon
drifting arch
refresh again
they just changed
ye
now it is 12 noon and now "officially" biden and harris terms begin
weary obsidian
cant believe they didnt prelock that before hand lol
drifting arch
kinda same, i was surprised
clear maple
Wikipedia be like I am speed https://unreal.codes/2021/1/20/ZEJ3R1611162043887-chrome_ou1lTM4AMp.png
hallow shoal
sweet canyon
So how did Kamala get her VP account so much sooner than Biden got his POTUS?
sand shale
"VP account"?
sweet canyon
lusty ibex
congratulations
sand shale
now I can unblock @POTUS and @VP
weary obsidian
you dont have it blocked, they rename accounts
cursive spindle
hello 46th President of the US
sweet canyon
Well maybe not
weary obsidian
the old potus is renamed to something else, bidens new one is renamed POTUS https://twitter.com/POTUS
Twitter
sweet canyon
I see posts now on that acc
drifting arch
Oh, yea, just noticed that
They make a new account and wait until the presidency and then rename it
weary obsidian
the post was worded in future context
drifting arch
it looks like the old one just got named to POTUS45
biden's was likely POTUS46, then renamed POTUS
faint radish
typical CNN... its supposed to be "an historic"
sweet canyon
No?
drifting arch
thats a brit thing
sweet canyon
Yeah
sand shale
ah good
weary obsidian
why would you use an there
sand shale
POTUS45 remained blocked, good
sweet canyon
That's proper in the US
drifting arch
brits pronounce historic as 'istoric' and so an sounds better
weary obsidian
wat
drifting arch
but muricans say the full H sound, so a
thats probably an oversimplification but oh well
cursive spindle
Oldest President of America
faint radish
is that a good thing? or just a thing?
drifting arch
huh
faint radish
the oldest president
faint radish
lol #NotMyPresident is trending
clear maple
ok this is what the accounts become what https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1351939497014030342
Twitter
that because her account was moved
drifting arch
ahh
clear maple
so she kept them all
drifting arch
I love that actually
drifting arch
I feel like this is a yes, but, this would be the first time in history the US has ever had a "Second Gentleman"?
sand shale
yes
drifting arch
<3
sand shale
I kinda wonder though
If Twitter has this stuff automated, or if someone manually moved/renamed accounts
hallow shoal
definitely ^
tough cedar
space force flag
raven hearth
I laughed at that also
fast flame
stock market goes up 250 points immediately following biden's inauguration lool
sand shale
is that a small amount?
stiff terrace
my stocks are about where they were yesterday
faint radish
im up 2.5% but that's not anything crazy or smth
if you are looking that the Dow for an accurate depiction of the stock market, its not that great of an estimate. S&P 500 is better
the general rule with the stock market is, it goes up slowly, down quickly, but generally, it always goes up
small root
Yay fuck Trump
stiff terrace
the general rule with the stock market is, it goes up slowly, down quickly, but ...
yeah I converted some of my savings to stocks as it seems superior
small root
Pretty amazing how easy it is to undo damage when it was done mostly through executive orders
faint radish
well compared to interest rates.... yes, the stock market is way better
fast flame
s&p 500 and nasdaq both hit record intraday highs between tuesday and wednesday
small root
Savings accounts usually don’t even surprise inflation
faint radish
they have always been hitting record highs, which is very strange
small root
Surpass
faint radish
they have been hitting record highs throughout trump's presidency pre-covid
it got back to its pre-covid high in august of last year, well before the election
small root
Idk someone tell XOM to get their shit together
Gain/loss from when I bought it
I can’t complain too much their dividends are at 7-8%
stiff terrace
Pretty amazing how easy it is to undo damage when it was done mostly through exe...
yeah its a nice and powerful tool the president has
small root
Yes but not as long lasting as actual legislation
faint radish
its really kinda stupid how so much is done through executive order...
near glen
Executive orders are really dangerous and anti democratic
faint radish
laws are supposed to be passed by the legislature
faint radish
the EO has become so overused
near glen
In germany we removed most of the stuff
small root
Especially when his job is execution
near glen
Especially after hitler abused them
faint radish
the next president can change our countries entire immigration system by themselves
which is stupid
our congress is just pathetically inept at doing literally anything
fast flame
luckily, biden isnt using executive orders for anything other than undoing the urgently problematic trump policies.
near glen
luckily, biden isnt using executive orders for anything other than undoing the u...
For now
near glen
No matter where you stand, these are dangerous and shouldn't be used
small root
Our congress is useless generally
Our whole government tbh. Completely lost faith in them many years ago
near glen
Only in urgent situations where it would take to long to go thru congress, but congress should validate it later and turn it into legislation
small root
Not sure why I ever had faith in it
near glen
That's what we did here with covid
faint radish
Our whole government tbh. Completely lost faith in them many years ago
but lets give them more power, like over our healthcare
small root
If you don’t think Biden is going to abuse EO too, you’re very naive
faint radish
cause that isn't that important
near glen
If you don’t think Biden is going to abuse EO too, you’re very naive
He would be stupid to not do it
small root
Mhm
faint radish
congress is happy to sit back and let courts write laws, which is not what they are supposed to do. congress passes legislation that is so vague, the courts end up writing the actual law.
small root
I don’t think our system is fixable at this point without a significant fuckup similar to nazi Germany
And I don’t want that to happen either
faint radish
my go-to example, is the authorization for use of force in the middle east that keeps getting renewed
from 9/11
small root
The president has had the ability to declare war since nam
faint radish
that doesn't apply to the situation in the middle east at all, but no one in congress wants to change anything cause they could be blamed if it goes poorly later
small root
Congress never does shit, they tried to limit him to 90 days or whatever but everyone knows they would just roll over
faint radish
well, I don't have a huge problem with them doing nothing, cause that means they cant do anything too crazy either 🙂
like the senate probably isn't going to get rid of the filibuster
small root
Yup
faint radish
so there isn't gonna be some nutty stuff passed there
small root
The US is just completely fucked and nothing will probably ever change that
We just have to hope that our ruling class doesn’t fuck us over at every chance they get like they usually do
faint radish
well I don't think that's true, I think the US is doing just fine from my point of view
its no where near its best rn
but still better than, well, anywhere else imo.
pure jetty
Yeah all this doomsday talk is very largely propaganda from the extremes showing
small root
Oh I’m not saying doomsday
small root
I think with all of the riots this past year, the inability for our ruling class to be able to work together, 400k dead from a preventable disease (and many more to come), the capitol being raided by terrorists, we are in a pretty fucked situation and I certainly don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel
We were very close to having a large part of our legislative body assassinated
faint radish
ok... and its over now
pure jetty
We were very close to having a large part of our legislative body assassinated
no
not even close, they were evacuated before anyone got in
faint radish
we've had presidents assassinated before
still here
as for rioting... we've certainly had worse before as well
small root
I’d call that very close
faint radish
I think all the riots last year, the damage estimate equals "just" the rodney king riots in LA
small root
Oh it’s definitely not over either
faint radish
not to mention... we literally had a civil war. and.... still here
I think there is something attractive about being present for the end of something, idk what that is, but people like to think, oh this is the end all the time
small root
Just because the US has been fucked for most of its history doesn’t mean that it isn’t fucked now
I’m not saying this is the end..
small root
I don’t see it getting any better, no
pure jetty
?????
dems have full control of legislative body
biden has decent plans
and that's not better?
??????????????????????????????????????
faint radish
if you don't see the US ever getting better... why tf are you here?
small root
I think you’re misinterpreting what I mean
And I don’t think it’s worth explaining it, don’t really want to argue
pure jetty
lmao
near glen
mystic ermine
'racist old white man out', racist old white man in
near glen
Best headline I read today
"Florida man goes home after four tumultuous years in public office."
faint radish
so someone explain how biden can use an EO to rejoin the paris climate accord?
I thought the senate had to approve all treaties?
mystic ermine
has the leave been fully done yet or?
I heard some people say rejoin, I heard some say stop the leave
faint radish
idk, I can't find info on that. smth said it takes 4 years, but idk
mystic ermine
paris climate accord is trash anyways imho
everybody apparently commited to reduction rates worse than they where already doing, and some of the worse offenders where all like "Oh, yea, we'll reach our peak in 2030, maybe"
tough cedar
obama used an eo to join it
trump used an eo to leave it
now biden is using an eo to rejoin it lol
mystic ermine
is it really a treaty, i guess?
faint radish
yes it is.
The Paris Agreement is a legally binding international treaty on climate change
mystic ermine
oh, yes, yes it is
SHUT UP MACHINE
I mean, yea
somebody was saying, would be nice if the US used their "we're rejoining" to actually basically have some push on 'we gotta move faster'
faint radish
oh there's smth called executive agreements which is different
mystic ermine
killing the pipeline in some aspects is also kinda meh
Like, we're not reducing our oil needs right now, not having to transport that stuff by train/truck or whatever surely would be a nicer option in many respects
maybe the long term plan is that by the time it's actually built, we'll have hopefully pushed down enough to be able to justify without, but, hmph
foggy fern
The Paris Climate Accord never went through the Senate to begin with
iirc they crafted it to go as far as they thought they could get away with without an actual treaty
foggy fern
This concert or whatever they're calling it is kind of awkward
Tom Hanks is there emceeing but he clearly doesn't want to be
foggy fern
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EsNlXUMUYAIXKGs?format=jpg&name=medium
I forgot Pauly Shore was in that movie
What the...
sweet canyon
cursive spindle
foggy fern
TIL Gabe Newell has been "stranded" in New Zealand for all of 2020 and is considering moving Valve there
smoky hedge
A games company of that size in NZ would potentially be real good for internet connections in the area
Especially with server hosting etc
Currently AU/NZ have awful international connections and server hosting here is ridiculously expensive
sand shale
I doubt they'd be moving servers there :p
smoky hedge
I more mean valve would be more likely to invest resources in improving the situation if they’re physically in the area
near glen
TIL Gabe Newell has been "stranded" in New Zealand for all of 2020 and is consid...
He was stranded in the beginning and then just didn't want to leave
And I mean, who would. Beautiful country, amazing people, and a great leader rn
near glen
Why couldn't the polticans change the system cat?
mystic ermine
The BBC is a statutory corporation, independent from direct government intervention, with its activities being overseen from April 2017 by the BBC Board and regulated by Ofcom.[97][98] The chairman is Sir David Clementi.[99]
It's really bastardized
near glen
I know that it's independent from direct stuff
It's here too, and thats a good thing
But there's gotta be a law that governs the structure of this relationship
And that can be adjusted
mystic ermine
Basically, they act as their entire seperate entity, the government doesn't really seem to either have much interest or much control in the BBC, and it's basically managed as an entirely seperate private ran entity, meaning that we as the public don't really have much say
e.g. a fair chunk of us have wanted to decriminalise not paying the license fee, especially as most of those who see the courts are generally council estate single mums who already have enough issues
Ofc, the BBC doesn't wanna do that, because that will affect their income as those on the breadline or sick of the way they manage stuff in general will just stop paying
Like, a heavy part of the reason that I don't pay for a TV license is that I heavily disagree with the BBCs practices over the years of coving up for creeps, they're hated by both side of the political isles to varying degrees of controversy, but, in general, they don't even really offer anything of quality, I don't watch live TV for the sake of not paying for a license, and, that kinda blows, but, it doesn't blow enough to cover how much I don't wanna support the BBC
mystic ermine
that charter no longer exists
mystic ermine
Restructing, basicaly, iirc
mystic ermine
they basically have their own seperate board
near glen
Filled with their ppl?
Or like the body i described we have here where its a broad mix of the society
mystic ermine
I'm honestly not 100% sure, really, it seems like the board is partially government placed them into the board and the rest is filled by the board itself
mystic ermine
Like, if there is a way that we have a real proper say over the BBC, I got no idea wtf that is, and generally with all the political pandering, it gets weird
Like, you can really tell when the BBC is tryna get a favour off the government as they start kinda being somewhat more nice to the tories
near glen
But that's the kinda shit those bodies normally should avoid?
mystic ermine
Well, the recent "upbeats" have been when there was actual discussions to decriminalise not paying the fee, but, with covid, those discussions kinda disappeared from my understanding, not heard about it in like a year or so
faint radish
I agree with the PressSec. It is a good question, cause it’s literally meaningless
Journalism is... well, not doing well I don’t think.
mystic ermine
oh no
shocking
what a revolation
Where'd I put... erm... lemmie jus... oh
/s
faint radish
Like, maybe if the reporter was for “Private Airplane Interior Magazine” or smth, but I’m not sure they have a White House correspondent
mystic ermine
Well
color me fucking surprised
I wish boris would just fuck off already
Like, he was the scape-goat for brexit
maybe I'm far too middle of the line for the tory party, but, like, I get a feeling that his push forward for PM was purely a game of russian roulette as to who had to pick up the job from may
Boris has forever been basically seen at the level of ralph wiggum and even looks like him enough that I can picture him just spooning the PVA glue into his cake hole
it was kinda comical when may called for a special election
Oh, yea, our party is so strong, we'll win a better majority if we re-run, and ended up having to team up with some other party nobody really liked afaik, and offered them a boat ton of cash at the same time as people are starving in the streets
and, yea, we've known for weeks
Like, they announced it a few weeks ago that they where delaying the 2nd dose, and it's like
You're not protected if you've not had the 2nd dose
I'm conflicted over if covid is gonna be the next "flu"
Like, part of me hopes that it fucks off
But, I mean, apparently 1/5th of the population or something has been tested positive thus far
ohhh, wait, no, 1/50
Hey, I'd be thinking finally we're about to get it over with 😄 😦
oh, damn
wait
That's HAS
Not, has OR had
that's HAS
near glen
I agree with the PressSec. It is a good question, cause it’s literally meaningle...
Clearly she said that as in "really, that's what you gonna ask on day one, what's wrong with you", but since she knows here role she stays friendly and does her job, will prolly just say no change planned as of now tomorrow and go on
arctic tangle
*smh*
https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1352058311559016449
Honestly, it's refreshing to see that kind of answer instead of rhetoric
foggy fern
It was a bullshit question and she even acknowledged that before asking it, it's just for fun
foggy fern
loud flax
actually the feeling I have is that there is a problem of not enough education, lmao
that is just... wow
thing is, that person is only able to write that comment because they were educated
restive seal
Nah, some are well aware of the correlation. They just don't necessarily make the appropriate connection to why it happens and may instead think it's some liberal conspiracy.
tough cedar
CNN reported Thursday that Biden and his advisers are inheriting a nonexistent coronavirus vaccine distribution plan to speak of from the Trump administration, with sources telling CNN that they'll have to essentially "build everything from scratch."
foggy fern
Plan was to use FEMA to set up federal vaccine sites, right?
I guess I should just read
tough cedar
fema and the national guard i believe
and the feds would compensate the costs for using the national guard i believe
earnest prairie
What does “WWG1WGA” mean lol
foggy fern
"Where We Go One, We Go All"
tough cedar
where we go one we go all
earnest prairie
Not the best acronym lol
tough cedar
its like a three musketeers kinda thing i guess
foggy fern
They think it was a thing from JFK and was a call for unity but I can't be sure if that's true or not because it's all been drown out on Google by them and them saying it's from JFK
Everyone probably knows at least the gist of this by now but I have to post it anyway because it's just so crazy:
QAnon exists as a kind of parallel history, in which a "deep state" took over decades ago. An all-encompassing theory of the world, it appears to tie together and explain everything from "Pizzagate" to ISIS to the prevalence of mass shootings and the JFK assassination.
It claims the military, supposedly eager to see the deep state overthrown, recruited President Trump to run for president. But the deep state, which controls the media, quickly tried to smear him through "fake news" and unfounded allegations of collusion with Russia. It goes on to insist that despite the deep state's best efforts, however, President Trump is winning, and that Q is releasing sanctioned leaks to the public in order to galvanize them ahead of "The Storm," which is the moment when the deep state's leaders are arrested and sent to Guantanamo Bay. QAnon believers have called this process "The Great Awakening."
That's some spectacular bullshit right there
mystic ermine
Most of the people I've personally seen who leave education as a "uber liberals" went into it as a liberal lites, in a sense; I'm not too sure how many people switch from a conservative standing point to a more liberal one, prior to going to college, I was somewhat "imma just vote for who my locals vote for", which being in a labour locked kinda area, sorta had me leaning towards them
and yea, knew that one was coming, was announced a few days ago or something
sand shale
Hopefully that does not pass x_x
mystic ermine
I mean, there's videos and such of him basically bragging about getting rid of a Ukraine prosecutor from what I've seen
restive seal
I mean, there's videos and such of him basically bragging about getting rid of a...
Yeah, a corrupt prosecutor. Who the USA wanted removed, and European countries wanted removed. Because he wasn't investigating corruption. This whole thing has been covered in great detail. Here's the first result I got that upon skimming seemed to cover it pretty well. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact-check-joe-biden-leveraged-ukraine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/
Not only covered, but investigated in detail too.
mystic ermine
So, yes, he did do what he's accused of
Just, he didn't do it for the reason he's accused of
is what I'm getting from that
restive seal
Yeah. In the same way that I accuse myself of enjoying a quesadilla tonight for dinner. I sure did!
Yeah. Classic combining of fact and fiction, using the trueness of the fact to "prove" the fiction.
foggy fern
It was really just him bragging about how unlike your normal VP he had actual responsibilities and Obama trusted him
The US wanted that guy gone, other countries who were giving Ukraine money wanted that guy gone, Biden got to be the person who went and strongarmed the Ukrainians to do it
sand shale
So is there a chance of Biden being impeached?
foggy fern
House elections are every 2 years for all of them
sand shale
That would be 2023 then no?
foggy fern
Senate is 1/3 of the seats every 2 years so each Senator has a 6 year term
sand shale
it's 2021 right now
sand shale
I see
foggy fern
How long is it between election and taking office where you're from?
sand shale
21.10.2019 was the last federal election
foggy fern
So Canada then
sand shale
yes
foggy fern
Do they win the election then just show up to work in Ottawa on the next flight or something?
sand shale
No clue
foggy fern
I guess it doesn't happen on any kind of regular schedule so it'd be harder to notice
sand shale
He's been PM since 2015 or something
foggy fern
What I meant was you guys don't have scheduled elections or specific terms of office, everyone is just in power until the bickering gets too bad and they can't agree to do things anymore
sand shale
No clue :P
ebon hound
How do you feel about Navalny. I don't want to raise a discussion
foggy fern
Navalny is a patriot with balls of steel
I don't know anything about his politics but he could have just not gone back
Just because Putin is evil doesn't automatically make anyone against him good and I haven't looked in to Navalny enough to say either way
ebon hound
tomorrow there is rally in russia, but im from kazakhstan
ebon hound
Just because Putin is evil doesn't automatically make anyone against him good an...
agree
foggy fern
foggy fern
tldr the company has a paper presence in Belize so they can get the still available IPs there from LACNIC but now LACNIC appears to be revoking their AS number and taking back the address space
You have to run an actual physical business in Latin America to qualify
mystic ermine
ouch
shut vine
The problem with the Burisma/Biden/Prosecutor situation is from memory internal executive memo's highlighted a conflict of interest between Biden and Ukraine (due to Hunter's involvement) before the threat of withholding the Congressionally approved funds from Ukraine (the executive branch actually withholding them is illegal in the US).
foggy fern
In March 2016, testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, former ambassador to Ukraine John E. Herbst stated, "By late fall of 2015, the EU and the United States joined the chorus of those seeking Mr. Shokin's removal" and that Joe Biden "spoke publicly about this before and during his December visit to Kyiv". During the same hearing, assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland stated, "we have pegged our next $1 billion loan guarantee, first and foremost, to having a rebooting of the reform coalition so that we know who we are working with, but secondarily, to ensuring that the prosecutor general's office gets cleaned up."
Page 47 of the PDF, the document's own page numbers have it as 43
sand shale
lol the title
S:\FULLCO~1\HEARIN~1\2016 Hearings -- Working\03 15 2016 -- 30-526\30-526.txt
foggy fern
Probably from some stenography machine that spits out a text file and knows how to talk on a network that was purchased in 1997
sand shale
Twitter
weary obsidian
did not disappoint
CHUCK SCHUMER FROM THE SENATE FLOOR
“Donald John Trump incited the ERECTION, insurrection against the United States"
sand shale
Twitter
raven hearth
Got my first dose today! 🙂
Our county did it in the worst way possible - by making it first come first serve with only 300 vaccines to distribute... So I was there 3.5 hours before it started (as a teacher) and waited.
mystic ermine
Over here they're basically calling people in to get it or something, but, they tried to make for a 12 week delay between the first and second dose, and have somehow (it's been fucking known for weeks if not months you don't get any real protection until the 2nd dose) found out that that's too late and magically outside of the manfs recommendations, so, god knows what they're doing
foggy fern
I think this is more for the folks in Portland but... neat https://twitter.com/Best_Beta4lyfe/status/1352809389573328897
That was on my timeline as a retweet from someone in Portland, I can guess what they want to use it for 😛
sand shale
lol what
foggy fern
shy gulch
Trump and Biden
faint radish
https://www.out.com/celebs/2021/1/20/how-miley-cyruss-preference-remarks-show-underlying-transphobia
foggy fern
tough cedar
Biden said trumps letter was "generous"
Whether he actually wrote it or not I don't know
foggy fern
At this rate, the United States could have 70% of people vaccinated (2 doses) in 306 days (or by 26 Nov 2021).
70% is the bare minimum before we can try to go back to normal
It could be worse:
At this rate, the European Union could have 70% of people vaccinated (2 doses) in 1,563 days (or by 6 May 2025).
faint radish
Does that take into account the J&J vaccine?
Also, I don’t think 70% of people in the US even want the vaccine
near glen
The vaccine manufacturer are trolling us here
They are not delivering
Iirc there's a lawsuit coming
faint radish
Not even 70% of health care workers want the vaccine.
near glen
Smth smth education
faint radish
Yeah, health care workers.... known for their lack of education.
foggy fern
This only takes in account the current reported rates of vaccination
It's the current trend extrapolated out to infinity, no predictions about likely changes
near glen
Yeah, health care workers.... known for their lack of education.
I am talking about general education, and most importantly, media competency
faint radish
Oh ok, well I think that’s pretty useless then.
only 73% of doctors, and just under 50% of nurses, in Germany want to be vaccinated against SARS-CoV-2.
faint radish
I nowhere said I was claiming to prove that...?
near glen
But, that quote kinda proves my point. Doctors are more educated than nurses, thus more likely to get the vaccine
faint radish
But I would think doctors would be the most educated in this. Everywhere. 73% is pretty low no?
near glen
Yeah, shows how bad the situation is
But such discussions are purely philosophical until we can actually get our hands on the vaccine, lol
In my city, we build the vaccination center 6 weeks ago
Not a single person has been vaccinated there
Cause we got no vaccine
Cause companies don't deliver, or deliver way less than they promised
faint radish
I also have no faith in government to actually know what is best. The US government thought giving thalidomide to babies was a good thing for decades before they realized it was a horrible thing. The government has a less than stellar track record when it comes to this stuff.
And if you say, well we know more now, yes we do, and they thought that back then, and in 40 years, they’ll look back at us saying, they knew nothing.
Iirc, the pharmaceuticals have liability waivers for this vaccine anyways.
It would probably ruin them either way, due to pr issues, but still.
That was probably a condition of buying the vaccine
near glen
It's not only your government, it's everybodies government
faint radish
No ik that.
I was just using the us gov as an example (thalidomide) that I know about.
near glen
Everybody agrees that the risk of the vaccine is lower than the risk of the virus, so it's a no brainer
elder portal
foggy fern
valid falcon
I like what Schumer said today.
elder portal
I gotta admit, I'm kinda on the Signal CEO's side here
It's a really difficult problem in which the solution is another problem
But ultimately technology simply exists, and good and evil are not only social constructs but entirely subjective
That leaves deterministic action to follow the same path everyone else does
Which means they'll have to start curating their platform, which means they'll have a platform
It's certainly a problem, just leaving a technology alone and hoping nobody "bad" uses it
But the alternative is undermining what that technology was supposed to stand for
And we've already done that so many times with so many messaging apps, now
If you want that, use one of those
mystic ermine
the problem is trying to find the balance between solving these security concerns and keeping those likely to do shit on board
elder portal
There's no balance because the concept is an absolute
The idea is encryption. Absolute, perfect privacy
mystic ermine
Like, if signal was to open the door, many of those people are going to shift off to an alternative platform which is more underground
Yea, that's the entire issue, really
Either you have privacy or you don't
elder portal
Yeah, that leaves it with either no compromise, or any compromise completely undermining the core idea
There's no middle ground here, at all
No grey area
mystic ermine
The thing is that I don't really see a long term solution to this
elder portal
It's a really damned hard choice
mystic ermine
How do you regulate an underground E2E encrypted platform, is the issue
mystic ermine
Yea, which is the entire issue, the only "secure" solution they have is to ban encryption, which, no underground market is going to listen to and all that, it really is a no-win imho
elder portal
And signal is E2E in the purest form
The only messaging app that does it completely
Yeah, there's no winning for everyone here
And possibly no winning for anyone
mystic ermine
Yea, I don't see how there'd be a long term win
as people of risk would just move towards less regulated platforms
decentralized social media has been a sorta like background shadow of a growing hype.. to, about 20 people runs or something
elder portal
I think the only way anyone wins is if regulation gives up and Signal, etc are able to keep using absolute privacy
And that's probably not happening
And even if it did by some miracle many people would hate that outcome
And many more would be torn
But that's what happens when you deal in absolutes
Especially on that scale
valid falcon
Hm. It’s a hard issue to ponder.
mystic ermine
the way I see it is that no matter what you're SOL unless you're solely hoping the catch the dumb ones
valid falcon
sol?
mystic ermine
the only way I could see signal pulling that out is sneaking out some master key, but, people are ofc gonna see that type of stuff, nor could you change older keys without people noticing, etc
shit outta luck
near glen
It will be really interesting, the EU seems to be focused on tackling this problem, we will see what bullshit they come up with
mystic ermine
Like, one of the things I see is that people tryna pass laws over encryption generally understand fuck all about it, and are generally seemingly heading in the way of wanting to even make SSL illegal or something
near glen
You still can't export some basic encryption algos to china from the US 😂
mystic ermine
just wait till they find out that theres open source impl's of those on github
near glen
Countless of those actually have disclaimers you can't use them in china, i saw that before
valid falcon
I have divided feelings. But I don’t think it’s simple either way.
mystic ermine
I don't think that you can win here
and I think that the general stance of tryna outlaw encryption is more dangerous than not
valid falcon
Well, I think we would agree that no dead people is a win.
mystic ermine
Yes, but I aim to have a sense of realism
elder portal
and I think that the general stance of tryna outlaw encryption is more dangerous...
That's basically it. We're dealing with absolutes, and when it comes down to it I'll choose encryption over no encryption
valid falcon
I think we’d agree, at a minimum, that no terrorist attack is a good thing.
mystic ermine
I don't think that you can have no deal people no matter what you do
*no dead people
elder portal
It's a hard problem only because the choice is so simple
mystic ermine
you ban encryption, people are just gonna move to more underground platforms
you ban encryption, all of a sudden, accessing peoples bank info is easy, or, people go towards doing stuff like just using unregulated VPNs for even checking their emails
valid falcon
Why does it have to be “ban encryption”?
Why must an option be portrayed as an extreme?
mystic ermine
What other option is there?
near glen
As long crypto exist, bad ppl will use it to avoid law enforcement
mystic ermine
and, well, am just going off what regulators are generally seemingly aiming for
near glen
Unless you got machine power to breach that particular crypto i guess
elder portal
Why does it have to be “ban encryption”?
Because that would be it. The premise is an absolute, so the solution must be as well. Though at least in this particular case it wouldn't be "ban encryption" - it would just be "backdoor encryption" or "undermine encryption"
valid falcon
For a moment, let’s just consider the nsa PRISM program,
elder portal
Which arguably is worse
near glen
Which was/is illegal
valid falcon
I don’t like it. And information on its success or abuse isn’t readily available for review. But there wasn’t mass abduction of law abiding people or even law breaking people. It was aimed for a specific extremist issue.
I guess what I’m trying to suggest is,
near glen
By looking at everybodies shit
It's unacceptable methodology
They also had no mandate, it was not regulated, etc
elder portal
Signal, in its current from, has absolute, perfect privacy due to its encryption standards and choice. The problem is that perfect privacy leaves an opening for people of a different ideology to use that technology
valid falcon
I don’t think we can always say that principal rules for everything, even though I do believe principal is very important
elder portal
You can't solve that problem without undermining the very thing you're trying to save
valid falcon
Ehh. Not true.
elder portal
This is one of the very, very few things in which there is no compromise. No grey area
valid falcon
Police and military power don’t have to undermine total freedom or democracy.
mystic ermine
how many years did prism operate for? how many attacks did it stop?
valid falcon
You can have two counter concepts co existing, not without issues of course
near glen
That's not public, i think snowedens documents still are the only info we have?
valid falcon
How many times was it abused to the point that people were improperly jailed?
mystic ermine
I got varying sources counting between 0 and 50, and we already know that the system was flawed and the people running it where basically lying iirc
elder portal
There is nothing you can do to solve the problem of "keep perfect privacy but also let the 'good guys' circumvent your perfect privacy" because that, in itself, is a logic hole
You either have perfect privacy and nobody can see anything, or you don't
valid falcon
Then no perfect privacy.
elder portal
That's it
near glen
I mean, the US still treats snowden like a traitor, not like the hero he is
valid falcon
Privacy, with review for extreme cases
mystic ermine
snowden is basically a political pawn and fucked
valid falcon
Snowden is a traitor.
elder portal
I'm on the side of, "if I have to choose an absolute between encryption and no encryption, I'd rather have encryption"
valid falcon
He did something courageous, but didn’t have the right to do it
elder portal
So my choice is clear
mystic ermine
He worked with the organisations to redact info which could harm others and gave them forewaring about releases to provide that info
near glen
Snowden is a whistleblower, he worked for an org that did stuff it wasn't allowed to, he and made that public
That's not being a traitor, that's being a patriot
mystic ermine
It's shitty that he exposed it in some respect, but, the government working behind closed doors breaking the laws it expects you to follow is not a good way to retain trust from the public
valid falcon
A bomber blew up a communications building. He blared a warning sound. Does that make it ok?
mystic ermine
Snowden told the world that the US was doing illegal stuff against its own people
valid falcon
Trying to do something right doesn’t make the wrong thing better. There was a better way to do it.
mystic ermine
it blows ass that he did it, but, that stuff shouldn't be kept from the public
near glen
Against its own and everybody else
mystic ermine
what better way?
We already know that the people running those programs straight up lied to the government about their operations
near glen
Yeah what better way? Whistle blowing is the last resort. As you can see, it destroys your life. But he still did it which makes him a hero
valid falcon
While there are some cases where I would agree with that sentiment, I would not use it in those terms. Being a martyr alone doesn't make one a hero.
mystic ermine
He co-ordinated releases of information which public agencies which allowed them to protect people
I believe that a corrupt entity doing corrupt things should be exposed, and when you've used all avenues, what do you do? accept that the government is breaking its own laws?
elder portal
Fact: you sign an NDA when you get a secret/top secret. The NDA you sign says that if you spill any information for any reason, period, you get sent to federal prison at minimum. Period. End of discussion. Nothing you can say or do will save you. There is no trial, no jury, no judge. Only you and the executioner.
near glen
Because that's how democracy works 😂
valid falcon
Corrupt entity?
mystic ermine
I'd argue that knowingly breaking the law as a business model is corrupt
I'd argue that knowngly lying to what I think was congress about your operations is corrupt
valid falcon
Who lied?
mystic ermine
I forget the exacts
valid falcon
I confused at how you're arriving at the conclusions of "corrupt" and "lied" and all that...
The patriot act was, for better or worse, put in place due to an event.
near glen
That's not really a conclusion as it's a well documented fact
The patriot act has been used to relatiate on news organizations and their sources
mystic ermine
that entity literally lied to the public about their operations to hide what they where doing
near glen
Obama made that famous, trump made it worse
valid falcon
Does the US military lie to the public if they do not disclose the locaiton of nuclear weapons to the American public and the world?
near glen
If they say it's at A and it's at B that's a lie
If they say we don't disclose cause national security that's different
elder portal
That said, there is usually a trial to see how long you get to stay in fed. prison for. Minimum 10 years and some insane fine that will absolutely bankrupt you, that much I know
valid falcon
I'm just confused how something is a corrupt lie...
mystic ermine
They literally lied to the public about their operations and what they do
valid falcon
Who is 'they'?
mystic ermine
the NSA
valid falcon
And what was the lie?
near glen
The NSA..
valid falcon
The NSA lied about... what?
elder portal
The NSA lied about... what?
You're not familiar with the Snowden incident?
valid falcon
I am familiar.
mystic ermine
I'd have to find an article to recall all the specifics
my brains generally trash at remembering a ton of stuff especially with my health
elder portal
Essentially the NSA promised not to spy on U.S. citizens for no reason, proceeded to mass-surveil the entire U.S., and lied about doing so while doing so
mystic ermine
Yea, that's the article I was tryna look over to link
valid falcon
Egg, I am well aware what the PRISM program was and the Snowden issue
elder portal
What I mean is they definitely, on record, lied about a lot of things they did that were specifically against their orders and the law
So there's that
valid falcon
Like I said. What lies.
elder portal
See above link
valid falcon
To my understanding, whether it was something revered or despised, it was lawful.
elder portal
It was not
valid falcon
As I have said before, I don't like the PRISM program, but not liking something doesn't make it illegal.
mystic ermine
Where not saying it's illegal because we don't like it
elder portal
It was explicitly illegal and against their orders
mystic ermine
^
elder portal
As in, actually, fully illegal
valid falcon
While I understand you may feel that way, that has not been proven.
elder portal
It has been proven
I am confused
How are you not familiar with this?
There were trials and everything
near glen
Denial is strong with this one
valid falcon
Insulting someone because you don't agree with them doesn't back up your case.
valid falcon
That isn't an excuse for incivility.
elder portal
There's at least one article on it after a quick Google
elder portal
It was, as discussed and judged, in a court, by officials, illegal
valid falcon
And no, I am not denying facts. I asked, quite clearly.
Ah, I wasn't aware of this outcome.
But it does say: "the court ruled the illegal surveillance did not taint the evidence introduced at their trial"
elder portal
I get not knowing something, but those were the first google results for "nsa illegal activity"
Could have saved yourself some time
valid falcon
Do you google how to boil water?
elder portal
mainly as I didn't have a kettle
Fun fact #2: in "pot calling the kettle black" the kettle is not actually black, but shiny. The pot is seeing its own reflection
Many people assume both are black, but that is not the case
And it changes the meaning of the phrase slightly
mystic ermine
ohhh, look at me, I passed englliiiish lit
valid falcon
But what about the grain?
near glen
Ok, so given we agree now that snowden exposed information of public interest and highlighted a corrupted agency, is he still a traitor to the americans people?
mystic ermine
He put people at risk, which is disagree able with
But, right now, the leading of him not being pardened overall seems politcal rather than moral
near glen
He tried to prevent as much damage as possible
He's not like the absolutists that assange is
Assange is way more controversial, i understand that, even tho the current ruleling against him in the UK is bullshit
valid falcon
I'm reading more details abut the case because teh Reuters reporting is vague.
The judges did not see the violation as fit a reason to overturn convictions. Which means that they don't believe that the activity they deemed to be wrong necessarily affected the case.
So I don't think it is appropriate to say that Snowden was a hero. I think at a minimum the fact that he ran means that he knew he was wrong to have done it. Had he stood by his convictions, he could have stayed and fought the good fight for his freedom in court. Prove to the American people that he was worthy. But we don't have clarity as to why he fled to Russia. I'm not saying that Snowden's intentions were bad or good. But going to the place that threatens our cybersecurity and threatens our information isn't a good thing.
Nothing obviously exists in a vacuum.
near glen
Snowden fled because he knows that the US would execute an example on him, not giving him a fair trail. Also the US doesn't have protections for whistle blowers, they only have laws for retaliation. Fleeing was the only sane thing to do. And russia wasn't his first choice, it's just more or less his only choice, so it's not fair to hold that against him.
The Obama administration was know for fighting hard against this kinda stuff
valid falcon
If a person believes that he/she should act outside the confines of the law for a purpose only he/she believes he/she have jurisdiction over, then isn't that the very type of activity we call illegal?
mystic ermine
What they did was illegal, that's well established
valid falcon
Not at the time. This is only months ago.
mystic ermine
The question for many is was the intents of their actions in the interest of the public
hm?
valid falcon
Does a person have the right to do something illegal if he/she believes something else is illegal or wrong?
mystic ermine
Well, that's part of the entire nuance here
valid falcon
I don't think someone has the right to do something wrong just because he/she feels justified.
mystic ermine
The thing is is that his trails by the government, not the public
the government is pretty well visibly set in punishing him for his actions
The public which I've seen are sloooowly more leaning towards believing what he did was justified
valid falcon
Thinking about this...
the pentagon papers are kind of similar arent they?
In the sense that an illegal act was committed to draw the veil on what had been happening
But Daniel Ellsberg didn't flee.
mystic ermine
from the header on wiki, apparently so
near glen
Any whistleblower that isn't protected by laws to protect whistleblowers ends up in situations like this
mystic ermine
See, I think that as mini noted, the obama admin pretty much set their stance that this type of activity was never gonna be tolerated
valid falcon
I still think Snowden should not have run.
mystic ermine
and at least as far as I've seen, the entire political system wants to shaft him
near glen
Worth noting is that laws got worse for whistleblowers in the US
So it's not certain that snowden would be as fairly treated as ellsberg
mystic ermine
I would have loved to see a trial, but, I don't think it had any potential chance of coming out good for snowden, especially with how much pressure was behind him
valid falcon
It's not certain that Snowden did not do something else.
mystic ermine
here's a fun one
near glen
Only thing that is certain is that the NSA did break rules and laws and that snowden made that public
mystic ermine
Do you believe that the people in places like, say china, should be allowed to shout to the world about their governments illegal treatment of them?
valid falcon
In thinking about the Pentagon Papers, I am re-considering my stance. Both Snowden and Ellsberg knew they were committing illegal acts because of something they felt was wrong.
near glen
And was later proven wrong
mystic ermine
snowden knew it was wrong, but to his credit, did take action to prevent people being at risk
valid falcon
They had no way of knowing if they would be backed up at the time.
near glen
As I said, the legal situation, especially under the Obama administration, is way different tho
And was shown prior to snowden
mystic ermine
even thought what snowden has leaked has been confirmed to show that was illegal was correct, the government still wants him behind bars
near glen
Just look at what happened to Chelsea manning
mystic ermine
There is no considering towards, was what he did moral? it's more, is what he did illegal?
We all know that what he did was illegal and can agree on it
valid falcon
Neither person sought to contact the office of special counsel, as would be the first criteria for whistleblower protection.
well wait, the office didnt exist for ellsberg
so ellsberg gets a pass (from me on this)
near glen
Whistleblowing is by nature, a pretty sensitive topic. But i do believe that if the information in question is of public interest, and especially if that lead to convictions and trails and stuff, i do believe the whistleblower should be protected as they served the american public
valid falcon
I'm sure the nuclear launch codes are also of public interest.
Something merely being in the public interest can't be enough.
mystic ermine
that's part of the issue, however
valid falcon
Everyone can state that something is good for subjective reasons.
mystic ermine
but, the us gov isn't denying that a nuclear launch system which requires codes exists
mystic ermine
Well, I mean, i'd hope/imagine that there's more processes involved then scrolling through the click wheel on this cheapo combi locks when you forgot the code after you hadn't touched in in years
Yea, I mean, there's got to be reasonable expectations for where public interest lies and where protecting the country exists
valid falcon
So where does the interest in national defense fit into the illegality or legality of Snoden's activity?
near glen
If gov agencies do something wrong, that's automatically of public interest, since only the public can hold them accountable
wraith grail
what if it's wrong but the people are still behind it because it was the best option 
valid falcon
You mean like the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
wraith grail
I am not confident on the stats of public opinion at the time of bombing two major civilian cities
mystic ermine
that was found unneeded too, iirc
wraith grail
it was, yes. The benefit of hindsight is strong though
valid falcon
Why not? There was so much hate and propaganda.
wraith grail
plus, we're not talking about what we know now, or what military leaders knew then - more what the general public opinion was at the time
mystic ermine
Well, yes, but I'd argue that even before hindsight it was somewhat of an excessive move unless there were severe overestimations of japans militiary might at that point
wraith grail
I imagine it was popular as it effectively and quickly put an end to a terrible war. But it was done in a wholly terrible and unnecessary manner
severe overestimations of japans militiary might at that point
from what I have read, there were not - military leaders were polarized on the necessity of a nuke
but military leadership is of no concern, only the public
mystic ermine
to me, it seemed that the US generally just wanted to do a big flex on the world
wraith grail
yeah, and certainly ending the war was a great excuse to do it
but yes tresswa I imagine it was wrong and still backed by the public
valid falcon
"In 1945, a Gallup poll immediately after the bombing found that 85% of Americans approved of using the new atomic weapon on Japanese cities. In 1991, according to a Detroit Free Press survey conducted in both Japan and the U.S., 63%"
"But a 2015 Pew Research Center survey finds that the share of Americans who believe the use of nuclear weapons was justified is now 56%"
wraith grail
And since the people are meant to hold the government accountable, and they didn't, it was an American choice and not some general's risky move
mystic ermine
Well, the government generally showcased it off as the end all ultimate solution to the war
valid falcon
It was Truman. Not a general
wraith grail
The american people wanted and end to the war so bad that when they got it, they excused the means to the end
mystic ermine
the fact that they would have easily won (or more, finished) without the nuke I have doubts was a public discourse type subject
valid falcon
What does easily won mean though?
wraith grail
It was Truman. Not a general
I was generalizing, military leadership vs the public. that's a fairly irrelevant detail because it was both truman and several generals, while several other generals were opposed
mystic ermine
there was no real further escalation which took american lives
wraith grail
Yep, instant flex to end the war
valid falcon
There would have needed to be an invasion
wraith grail
And I'm sure they would have kept dropping nukes to end it. It was old. I've read reports that the Japanese had plans to surrender without the nukes, but I am not sure of their truth because well, after being nuked once you think they certainly would've
valid falcon
Wait, are you sure? They tried to keep the war going even after
They tried a coup
The emperor won out though
mystic ermine
I think that hindsight is an obvious sorta issue in looking at all of this
you don't really consider the lives of those in the spawling battlefield that would spread the nation and those who'd be killed in the process in the name of defending their country or even just simply being in the way
it's easy to say that the bomb killed dozens of civilians in an unnecessariy manner
wraith grail
also impossible to know what might have happened, only what actually happened
mystic ermine
But, do we believe that japan would have surrendered if that wasn't done in a manner which would have killed less?
wraith grail
it's easy to say that the bomb killed dozens of civilians in an unnecessariy man...
two cities worth is a lot more than dozens 😄
wraith grail
But, do we believe that japan would have surrendered if that wasn't done in a ma...
literally no way to know
mystic ermine
relative to the size of the country, I stick to my wording
valid falcon
zzz, I think that needs modification to : "but did we believe japan would have surrendered...
wraith grail
imo relativity should be measured in human lives, because there's not much more valuable than that. Of course in a war military human lives are something different, but civilians are meant to be treated well because they really don't have much to do with any of it all
valid falcon
We like to think that way, but its not that simple
wraith grail
so in hindsight, killing two cities full of civilians should probably have been avoided, and it certainly was considered that bombing areas near cities to just flex might have a similar impact. But there's no way to know
valid falcon
Ultimately a military force supports the power structure they serve, which is supported by the civilian population, even in a dictatorship.
wraith grail
yes, but there are also rules of engagement, civilians are in general off limits. In certain circumstances that totally changes and is complicated, but two cities full of civilians? there was likely a better way
valid falcon
I'm not saying that destroying cities is right.
wraith grail
I know, and again we really do have hindsight
valid falcon
Maybe, but it isn't so simple. They knew, as we do today, that Japan was capable of terrible atrocities.
wraith grail
back then, sending some bombs off may have been the only perceivable guarantee to end the war as quickly as possible
wraith grail
Maybe, but it isn't so simple. They knew, as we do today, that Japan was capable...
everyone is capable of terrible atrocities, sanctioned or otherwise - there was a lot of compartmentalization going on
valid falcon
No, I meant they did terrible atrocities
I'm not saying that justifies more atrocities though
wraith grail
I understand, no argument there
valid falcon
I guess when we are scared that someone is doing the unthinkable, then we also resort to doing unthinkable things... if that makes sense?
wraith grail
Completely does
valid falcon
Escalation is a terrible thing
wraith grail
I took a class that focused heavily on what was termed "killing compartments"
if you can find academic reviews of Abram de Swaan's book on it, or even book summaries, it's a good subject
basically talks about how people become desensitized in 'us vs them' scenarios to the humanity of 'them'
valid falcon
sounds like an interesting read - im reading a wsj review of it
wraith grail
he mostly applies it germans, genocide-perpetrators, etc
but it can very easily be applied to americans
valid falcon
absolutely
wraith grail
especially since annihilating two cities of people in two days counts... probably? as mass murder
valid falcon
well even further back, slavery, subjection and elimination of native americans
wraith grail
I think maybe he didn't write on american nukes because it's not a great subject to get english speaking readers
very applicable to just about all of human history though
another good read is alon confino's A World Without Jews that basically applies this killing compartment phenomenon to Nazi Germany
and i wrote a summary review of it, if you care for the subject, which I am allowed to share
sadly it's a formatted pdf or I'd just upload it to bytebin 😄
wraith grail
hahaha good
valid falcon
i could ignore the lead in my water, and toxic gas and soot in my air, so long as i have a pdf
wraith grail
I can imagine a poorly designed canvas board that those moms use to decorate their homes that says in scriptic text : "PDFs make life grand"
but grand is done in disney logo font
mystic ermine
brb, designing a shirt
wraith grail
hahaha
wraith grail
mmm warmth
ima go get some - in bed
gnite yall, for once an actually decent conversation in this channel too which was fantastic and refreshing
mystic ermine
gnite
valid falcon
❤️
foggy fern
super late on all this but Snowden didn't flee to Russia
The US pulled his passport when he was on a layover there so he was stuck
Russia gave him asylum instead of sending him to the US
near glen
Point it he didn't flee to russia (the enemy!!!111) as tresswa said, but he just got stuck there
That's a notable difference
faint radish
Quick thing on the Snowden thing. He absolutely shouldn’t be pardoned. While I might like what he did, you CANNOT remove the punishment for it, for all that will do is encourage other people to reveal information that would do serious harm to the national defense and not be really important. There has to be the consequence in order to ensure the motivation is correct.
If you think you’ll get away scot-free cause the pres would pardon you because what you leaked benefitted them politically or smth, that would open the flood gates and I don’t want that.
Also, on the whole atomic bomb thing... I think it’s a classic example of presentism.
It’s similar to slavery. If any of us were born 300 years ago, chances are pretty high, we’d have been OK with slavery. That was just how it was back then. We aren’t inherently “better” than people 300 years ago, we just came later. Chances are, in 150 years, YOU’ll be looked back as barbaric and cruel or smth, but right now, you’re just fine.
dusky raft
The problem with today, and considering the massive influx of information (or misinformation), is that we view the past with the morals of today without knowing the morals of the past
slavery wasnt just a european invention as some progressive viewpoints try to frame it, and hell, all the europeans did was jump onto the bandwagon when they took over the place.
urban knoll
Reason Europeans seem to have had a disproportionately bad influence is because they had a disproportionately large influence over the modern world
foggy fern
Didn't a lot of the people involved in the bombing think it was a bad idea from the start? And our leaders thought so as soon as the 50s
foggy fern
Seems like the real reason the bombing even happened was we wanted to see what it would do, not because we thought it would change anything in the war
white wing
People like the underdog.
urban knoll
An invasion of mainland japan was expected to kill more civilians than the bombing
The bombing of Dresden actually killed more people then the atomic bombings
foggy fern
The Japanese were trying to surrender before the bombing happened, we were arguing terms
urban knoll
Um, I think some of them were
But most of them were staunchly committed to the military dictatorship
What we did to German cities is basically equivalent to what we did to those two cities in Japan
foggy fern
We did more damage to Tokyo with traditional bombing than those two bombs too
urban knoll
yes
exactly
However the Japanese did not experience the additional damage of a traditional mainland invasion
foggy fern
Difference is those were, as much as we could, targeted strikes
urban knoll
Yes, I would say so
However Night bombing in WW2 was often sloppy enough that it killed a lot of civilians
near glen
If UK bombs would have worked as good as american bombs, my city would have looked like Dresden 😂
foggy fern
Atomic bombs just wipe out cities, traditional bombing was trying to hit factories and railroad and such
urban knoll
Well trying to yes
But they often hit civilians by working at night
And for an initial period, Americans & British initially targeted civilians in an attempt to "demoralize" the enemy
near glen
Can we just agree any bombing is bad?
urban knoll
I have a moral issue with that, but they eventually gave up as they realized targeted strikes were more effective
@near glen Yeah I think we're all on the same page there 😦
foggy fern
The Dresden example is a hard one to talk about because it got over-exaggerated by Nazis and their modern counterparts
near glen
Ww2 bombings are well documented
foggy fern
Tokyo is the better example for "we fucked up cities worse without nukes"
urban knoll
I really think that numerically it did kill more people than those atomic bombings
near glen
America basically leveled the whole east
near glen
Some would say nothing of value was lost tho 😂
urban knoll
Except for like all of european history 😢
Which is just a series of wars of course
So live by the sword die by the sword 😆
urban knoll
Nice 😄
foggy fern
About 25,000 people were killed during the bombing of Dresden but the Nazis tried to say it was 200,000 and some try to claim it was 500,000
urban knoll
Um, I'm simply re-quoting what I know from Slaughterhouse 5
I really don't know the exact details of any of the bombings
near glen
We here in cologne went thru 262 air raids, some of them involving over 1000 bombers, 35k tons of bombs, 20k dead
urban knoll
And I think it's definitely true that overall Germany had a huge number of civilians deaths - even though they were generally targeted at factories and legit war targets
foggy fern
Yeah, Vonnegut said over 135,000 were killed and we leveled the city
urban knoll
It's unfortunate but I really think those two Japanese bombs fall into the same general class as the conventional bombings
foggy fern
He was wrong 😛
near glen
Brits called it operation millennium
urban knoll
Well that's comforting, but its still a horrifying book
Cats cradle really traumatized me
urban knoll
Wow thats very interesting - helps gives me some faith in the good-faith of the American bombers
Still I really think those two Japanese bombs fall into the same general class as the bombings we did to germany
foggy fern
The initial report from the city itself was ~25,000 and every later investigation done came up with about the same number
urban knoll
I think really any collateral damage is horrible, whether caused by conventional or atomic bombing
dusky raft
we didnt know much about the power of nuclear weapons, or at least the sheer scope of using it on a population center or two. there wasnt any specific rules to blow shit up with as bigger bomb during WWII
foggy fern
Including one done by the city in 2010 to try to put the matter to rest