Yeah, but not including names.
#politics
near glen
Part time most likely
torn wadi
Maybe, but that's for December, so all the holiday BS is added to that.
near glen
I see
torn wadi
That's also why they posted it now. So all the numbers are blown up.
restive seal
Conservative humor can be so dull.
fast flame
You cheered on lawyers who said they’d release the Kraken. But now you’ve poked Leviathan.
that article is so good
i dont know what those idiots were expecting but if they thought the capitol police was the worst they would face as a consequence of this, theyre gonna get a rude awakening here pretty soon
foggy fern
🤔
weary obsidian
:woosh:
dawn flax
so is antifa agiast fa the note?
mystic ermine
Not really
dawn flax
oh good cuz if u hate one note then whos gonna stop them from canceling music
mystic ermine
anti antifa is against the groups who run around burning cities in the name of being anti-facist
foggy fern
I'm still not sure I've seen any evidence of antifa burning things down
restive seal
anti antifa is against the groups who run around burning cities in the name of b...
If you make that claim, then I can claim anti-Republican is against sedition or against domestic terror.
weary obsidian
yeah the amount of violence from the extreme right def is outpacing the amount on the left
restive seal
antifa's a biiiiiiiiig group with lots of people in it. How many are actually burning things?
foggy fern
antifa fight the police but the main places that happens the police are openly friendly with or a part of various white supremacist militias
It's not a big group 😛
mystic ermine
I'm clarifying what their general stance is on with how it's protrayed in right leaning media
It's a few dozen small groups all under the same name/flag
foggy fern
It's a lot of small groups with little to no organization
weary obsidian
yeah theres some leftist that did shitty things in the previous riots. looting and destroying small businesses was stupid.
restive seal
Anybody's antifa if they want, just declaring they're against fascists. Compare that to the number of people who have burned a building down and it's big. Obviously not millions and millions of people, sorry for misrepresenting that 😄
restive seal
I'm clarifying what their general stance is on with how it's protrayed in right ...
The person wearing that clothing has fallen victim to extremist propaganda, tying being against fascism to being pro-communist and whatnot. I don't think "rightleaning" is the right descriptor for the media this person takes in so much as far-right-leaning. Like, surely The Hill isn't linking antifa and communism or are those far right thoughts drifting leftward?
foggy fern
The original antifa was a communist group
mystic ermine
I mean, I'm not too sure where I lie, but, I tend to prefer right leaning media as it seems to be less "emotional", being a pessemistic view on life, my general stance is that you vote for the person who's gonna make fucking you sound the nicest
but, general gist is that in right media, the protests which happened in the big cities where all generally attributed to antifa/blm activities
There where apparently some protests where people flogged down those tryna create a massive issue out of it and handed them over to the cops before anything "real" happened, but, it's sorta like herd mentality
one moron storms the capital, 50% chance people are gonna watch like "Hey, watch this fucker", or run along with them and storm the place
I believe that the protests where in general schemed and intended to be peaceful, but, ofc, every class has that one arse of a kid who showed up to class for the sole purpose of getting a kick out of it
weary obsidian
that wasnt one moron, they all marched in a massive group together
and iirc from different entries too
mystic ermine
I got no idea if it was organised or what, I've been too ill for this past while to really keep up to date with that stuff too well
foggy fern
They were definitely trying to organize online
weary obsidian
well coming with handcuff zip ties was def a sense of organization
foggy fern
Apparently that guy got ID'd
mystic ermine
Morons, the lot of em
restive seal
I mean, I'm not too sure where I lie, but, I tend to prefer right leaning media ...
Maybe that's the case across the pond, but holy cow in America the right media is the most emotional, fear-mongering mess of feelings. Constant scares about everything. Think wishing people happy holidays being a "war on Christmas" as a serious claim that regularly comes up. The constant pushing of fear of "the other" (democrats, immigrants, antifa, science) daily into their brains is what brought us to the capitol event.
My grandmother started watching those fox news "personalities" recently and has become incredibly angry, distrustful of facts, and anti- a lot of things she used to think were good or fine. It's scary how fast their constant fear pushing can act.
elder portal
Yeah, an adversary starts off with any media they can to reach a wide audience, but the real damage is done by that "crazy aunt/uncle" who believes and spreads it far and wide
weary obsidian
yeah the right here is emotional to the extreme
elder portal
Not saying this is an adversary
weary obsidian
see: the entire trump movement calling the left communist
mystic ermine
I mean, by emotional I more mean that there is generally more there in terms of discussion which is tolerable, maybe I just hate you lefties ;P
But, I mean, the thing is that the repubs often see the small little things leading towards the big thing
weary obsidian
the democrat party keeps moving right
mystic ermine
e.g. merry christmas basically being some offensive thing that we gotta say happy holidays instead, etc
weary obsidian
but what small things? the democrats are moving closer to the right, its not even going the direction they say it is
the upset people are progressives like me who want it to move left, who want MFA, were pissed at the dems for becoming too right
but the right sees some fairy tale land where the democrats are all super progressive
and us progressives are like "fuck i wish we were in that world"
restive seal
e.g. merry christmas basically being some offensive thing that we gotta say happ...
Offensive? No. It's just more inclusive to say happy holidays. Phrasing it as "everything's getting so offensive" fits into the narrative their viewers have for "I can't call someone [insert list of terms banned at paper] anymore" though, so that's easier for them to process and makes it another issue to fight over.
foggy fern
Merry Christmas has always been somewhat offensive for businesses to use, offensive to Christians that is
They didn't like having their holiday used to sell coffee
Happy Holidays comes from Christians trying to figure out something they can say to a customer that doesn't belittle Christmas
weary obsidian
merry christmas to happy holidays wasnt to say merry christmas was 'offensive', its just awkward if you say it to someone who isn't christian. the idea to say happy holidays is simply encouraging inclusivitity, recognizing not everyone has the same beliefs, and ensuring you can say the greeting in a neutral way where religion doesnt matter
foggy fern
I like how we're saying the complete opposite
weary obsidian
i cant say ive ever heard your version amaranth
def not a thing in the south
here we have 'your taking the christ out of christmas'
mystic ermine
I've somewhat heard amars version, but, heard aikars more
weary obsidian
oh i guess back then, i wasnt born 😛
foggy fern
Then in the 80s they wanted Jesus in everything and in the 00s O'Reilly started the War on Christmas
mystic ermine
The thing is that "offensive" is generally taken more to mean "shunned" these days I think
Saying that, I think that christmas is generally more celebrated over here, even my muslim bff kinda celebrates it, we went over to her house last year for a white peoples christmas dinner 😄
think that our sorta like christianity population % is kinda low, but, it's more generally taken as sorta like a generic holiday where we generally don't care about the religious aspect as much as presents and dinner
foggy fern
Happy Holidays also used to be what Christians said to each other to cover the whole period around Christmas because it's not just Christmas, you've got the Advent and such
You can dig in to this forever but the main thing to remember is the right is full of shit
At least on this issue, I'll let you decide how many others too
The inclusiveness is probably the only reason anyone says it today though, no one gives a shit about the Advent
And clearly Christians want you to monetize Jesus
weary obsidian
oh man could you imagine if I got a card to give to family that had both Obama and FSM handing you a gift and gave that to my far right family
though not sure all of them know of FSM
Hilary Obama and Pelosi all together.
foggy fern
You forgot AOC
mystic ermine
amar just reminded me of like, garfunkle and oates
foggy fern
Although if you put AOC in there they might use it for porn
mystic ermine
I'd argue that pelosi and AOC is on the same sorta like level
weary obsidian
Hillary and Obama is clear top tier list of hated
restive seal
which you think they hate more, AOC or Pelosi?
Varies by the day. As do most right media fears/hates.
Depends on which one of them most recently advocated for something reasonable.
AOC called for a living wage? It's AOC more hated. Pelosi called for basic safety in the house (masks)? It's her turn.
weary obsidian
i didnt go to family for xmas over trump more than corona this year lol
I have certain family that loves to make it the conversation
mystic ermine
Does somebody leaving high school and getting their first job need a living wage?
foggy fern
Yes?
restive seal
Yeah. Everyone needs a living wage.
mystic ermine
The biggest thing is that you price people out of the market
weary obsidian
not everyone has a family to depend on
restive seal
Unless you want to subsidize them with a UBI or such! 🙂
Otherwise you are deliberately putting people into poverty in a first world country.
mystic ermine
Having schemes to protect people imho is a must, people pay taxes and such so to me it's fair to expect that the government would have your back when you're down, imho
foggy fern
As recently as the 70s you could support a family on a single income with just your high school diploma
You wouldn't be doing great but you could do it
restive seal
Having schemes to protect people imho is a must, people pay taxes and such so to...
Maybe you're not as right wing as you thought! 🙂
Filthy liberal idea right there.
foggy fern
In the 80s you could sometimes do it but more likely both parents needed to work
Now both working isn't enough either
restive seal
(seriously, what you just said would get you an attack piece on fox news if you were a politician in america)
mystic ermine
Well, yea, that's why I said I generally sorta stand in the middle but lean to the right a bit
elder portal
the issue is that the right, here, is way too far right. A good majority of democrats are fairly center
foggy fern
neolibs
mystic ermine
The biggest issue i see with things like minimum wages is, who decides them?
foggy fern
You know, like Thatcher and Reagan
mystic ermine
Why is the minimum wage for somewhere like NYC at the same level as little town fuckknowswhere, etc
foggy fern
It isn't, afaik NY or NYC have their own minimum wage that is higher than the federal one
elder portal
federal minimum wage is across everywhere, but states and even cities decide local minimum wage
foggy fern
But I'm pretty sure the US government tracks what the poverty line is on a per-county level
mystic ermine
Well, yea, but the call was for increasing the federal one to like $15 or there was even calls for like $20 last I recall
"tracks"
foggy fern
So they could write a law that says the minimum is that
restive seal
Is federal minimum above poverty line anywhere?
mystic ermine
Probably not, last I knew it hasn't really been looked after in general
foggy fern
Even just adjusting our terribly low (and low for its time) $7.25 that was set in 2009 for inflation it should be $9 now
mystic ermine
GARFUNKEL & OATS LOOPHOLE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na3lw1PzbCw - because you's somehow reminded me of this
restive seal
Even something simple like "Set minimum to current poverty line in worst-off places, and set it to increase matched to GDP" would be better than what we have now
foggy fern
They still think it was hacking too
elder portal
Security experts are also sometimes idiots
foggy fern
Saw people complaining twitter wasn't taking down talk about it for the same reason they took down the Hunter Biden stuff
elder portal
Because it actually happened and there's real, tangible proof that literally anyone can view
That's a good start
foggy fern
Also because, you know, it wasn't hacking
elder portal
That, too
foggy fern
Someone on reddit made up a BS story about hacking via a backdoor twillo left open
elder portal
Yeah, API abuse isn't hacking
foggy fern
In reality they just used the parler API and guessed asset IDs (because they were sequential)
elder portal
And it was barely abuse
fast flame
the information security director at the company my dad works for had a parler account. i wonder how hes feeling right about now
elder portal
Eh, as a user your responsibility is limited
Set a good password, enable 2FA if you can
The rest is out of your hands
fast flame
oh i know. im not saying he could have influenced it
i just think it's pretty ironic
y'know, that his information is anything but secure as it stands now
elder portal
That kind of thing bites us all
mystic ermine
I mean, your info's probs laying out in some private database somewhere, tbqh
elder portal
I don't blame the users much
mystic ermine
as devs, we care about security on our own platforms and such
We don't generally care to check that some large service isn't doing something moronic like predictable IDs, etc
Like, best I do when signing up to some site is do a "does this place smell sketchy", and, "is this https?!"
elder portal
Basically, yeah
restive seal
Bernie as budget committee chair. 😄
weary obsidian
nah, most of them are too inexperienced to know what EXIF is
brisk cradle
Parler had a feature where you could be verified by uploading a copy of your drivers' license...
Either way, terrible opsec from the fascist coup participants 
weary obsidian
thought they wanted SSN for verified
brisk cradle
Now they are all sitting ducks for prosecutors
shut vine
restive seal
Not commenting on that particular story, but I wasn't sure who that was so I looked them up. What a wild ride in this section - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Dore#Discussion_of_conspiracy_theories
shut vine
Yeah would take that with a grain of salt. He's been openly criticizing the news groups that criticize him.
Prior to them criticizing him, that is.
To be honest those are pretty weak attacks even so.
My experience from watching him relatively frequently is he's fine being critical for anyone regardless of alignment. He's doesn't have a deep tribalism like many, which means your own ideas are challenged more often.
clear maple
faint radish
yeah, I don't see how this hadn't been the GOPs position from the start. they dont have to worry about him running again. I would think the dems would WANT the possibility of him running again to just confuse the next GOP nomination race.
shut vine
Also that article is basically an anonymous source hearing Addison saying this.
It would be a good political move if he said it publicly I think, realistically if the Democrats then decide not to impeach it makes them look super weak.
But if they do it they are just "doing what anyone would do".
weary obsidian
man i hope it fucking happens
we need that peace of mind that he cant return in 2024
shut vine
The potential downside to impeaching him is it's likely to take up a lot of time in the Senate that could otherwise be used to get things done.
dusky raft
We also dont know how much this would also impact politics going forth by impeaching trump
its a two way street
shut vine
Also they need 2/3rds to convict, and a subsequent 2/3rds to prevent him from returning to office.
An impeachment conviction does not mean they can't hold office again on its own.
dusky raft
its just wasting time at this point,
shut vine
Possibly, we don't know what the future holds.
dusky raft
no, and I dont think democrats have the best in mind for everyone for the next 2 years
faint radish
well I think all politicians have whats best for them in mind
foggy fern
Also they need 2/3rds to convict, and a subsequent 2/3rds to prevent him from re...
2/3 to convict, simple majority after that to prevent returning
brisk cradle
foggy fern
I can't find anything that says it's only a simple majority but I heard a Senator say it on TV the other day
foggy fern
They're getting closer
sand shale
This house vote is so confusing
foggy fern
It's a symbolic measure to officially call on Pence to invoke the 25th
Tomorrow they'll start on impeaching Trump instead
foggy fern
Which McConnell apparently supports
sand shale
These idiots are fucking mumbling and are not understandable half the time
foggy fern
Oh, I'm not watching the actual vote
shy gulch
brisk cradle
But I didn’t see any Democrats actually heeding those calls now, do you?
But the Dear Leader told his supporters to do it and they followed through.
shy gulch
Those aren't democrat leaders, those are news outlets
brisk cradle
But here, Trump’s words directly translated into action. He is as every bit complicit as any of the participants.
shut vine
Likewise for the Democrats words. I tend to subscribe to the idea that people are responsible for their own actions. But, I'm happy for something consistent either way.
brisk cradle
Did you see Democrats storming the Capitol building, trying to kill Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell?
If so, I’d really like to know.
shut vine
Do you see Republicans murdering 19 people and causing the death of 26 in their riots?
brisk cradle
I’d like to know if Democrats were wondering around the Capitol, masked and socially distanced, shouting profanities about Mitch McConnell.
Come on. You have zero evidence.
shut vine
It's really inconsequential the target of the violent riot.
brisk cradle
You’re doing what-aboutism here. Your argument is literally not valid.
loud pelican
it's k, they burned small businesses instead
shut vine
Your argument is a fallacy.
brisk cradle
So is yours.
shut vine
Feel free to name the fallacy.
shut vine
Yet it wasn't my argument.
brisk cradle
What is your argument, then? I didn’t see a valid argument.
shut vine
I'm not arguing we shouldn't impeach him due hypocrisy. I'm arguing it should be consistent.
You're literally being illogical about calling something illogical.
Either A: we impeach people who incite violence. Or B: We don't.
Unless they directly say "you need to be violent" I opt for B.
mystic ermine
I saw trump calling a peaceful protest for a process which had some questions about the process which woulda been nice to have been answered
brisk cradle
You say they said fighting words, the problem with your argument is that you cited NOTHING to prove that their words lead to rioting directly. As far as I can guess, you are referring to BLM protests last year, of which some turned violent.
mystic ermine
I don't see where he was standing saying that we should take any actions which leaded directly to morons storming the capitol
shut vine
I saw trump calling a peaceful protest for a process which had some questions ab...
I saw that too. I could see his speech inciting radicals, but they are not what I'd consider the norm.
It's a bit intellectually dishonest to attribute radicals to anyone specific though even if their words could potentially incite them accidentally.
shut vine
You say they said fighting words, the problem with your argument is that you cit...
Equally no one has shown his words did the same.
So you're against impeaching him.
Or you're intellectually dishonest.
shut vine
Yeah, so he wanted a protest.
shut vine
That's a false equivalency to PROOF his words lead to the violence and not the radicals that attended already likely to be committing those crimes.
brisk cradle
Then there was that bizarre video he made telling the insurrectionists "we love you" which got him banned from Twitter.
shy gulch
I'm not sure where he directly mentioned be there and storm the capitol either,
shut vine
He never said he loved the insurrectionists. False claim.
Maybe I should take the context of what you just said, and make that claim about you. 🙂
brisk cradle
Now, go read the NYT article I linked, you can see the president egged these people on.
loud pelican
yes read my link c:
shut vine
I read it about 3 days ago.
brisk cradle
https://www.vox.com/2021/1/6/22217630/trump-capitol-riots-mob-violence-love-you-stolen-election-lies
shut vine
The evidence included in the actual article supports my current position. The opinion parts do not.
brisk cradle
@loud pelican So am I only allowed to use far-right sources? In that case, then I am very mistaken, there was never a riot at the capitol, only a very peaceful protest to resist the stolen election by Democrats who bizarrely only changed things so that only Biden won and didn't prevent Democratic losses in Congress. We love the God-Emperor!
mystic ermine
Nobody is saying that there wasn't a riot...
shut vine
Correct. I agree there was an element in the protest that turned to rioting.
cosmic badge
There was also terrorism.
But it would be false to claim the whole thing was a coordinated insurrection.
tough cedar
once you stepped onto the capitol property you weren't protesting anymore, you were rioting
brisk cradle
The security failings in the protest allowed it to turn into an insurrection, albeit a poorly coordinated one.
shy gulch
I'm not too sure how exactly Trump directly mentioned or stated to directly enter the Capitol and fuck shit up
shut vine
All of those who were a) violent b) trespassing c) breaking other laws, should be found and feel the full force of law.
brisk cradle
BLM was dealt with far more harshly than this.
shut vine
Like with EVERY protester who does those things.
cosmic badge
Definitely would agree that the lax security led to the escalation.
It could've remained a protest/light riot otherwise.
shut vine
They are NOT a part of Democracy, and they are NOT people I want representing my view.
cosmic badge
It's easy for stuff like this to escalate if given the opportunity. A few jackasses taking the initiative, a few others get excited/emboldened, suddenly you have an insurrection.
shut vine
Those are people who show intolerance to the point we MUST use force to prevent. Does not matter the reason they do it.
brisk cradle
Like, these are the people who lost their shit over a BLM protest in Minneapolis leading to the looting of a Target store, but were perfectly chill with breaking into the Capitol and taking a shit over democracy.
shut vine
I agree, I am against anyone who riots.
mystic ermine
and, now you're in a channel where there are people who disagree with both actions
brisk cradle
I am of the belief there was inside help.
shut vine
Any inside help should carry a conspiracy charge.
brisk cradle
Perhaps Trump didn't come out and say it aloud, but there was inside help.
shy gulch
Is that a conspiracy 😛 ?
mystic ermine
biggest question is where the fuck where the police
shut vine
Automatically makes it felony murder since people died.
mystic ermine
Like, this was a known threat
cosmic badge
We'll probably not know for a while, but there were clearly failings within the capitol police.
mystic ermine
It's not like crazy people hadn't been posting on social media
cosmic badge
If it's that easy for people to break into the capitol building, someone fucked up bad somewhere.
I don't think there's an argument there.
shut vine
If Trump conspired to allow them in to commit that crime, and that can be proven, he should be charged with felony murder.
brisk cradle
And at the very least, there were severe security failings in the Capitol Police.
shut vine
Yeah, Capitol police underestimated the security needs substantially
cosmic badge
Imagine if more serious terrorist element manage to slip in with the crowds.
shut vine
If not gross incompetence then willful neglect.
cosmic badge
This situation could've been a whole lot worse.
mystic ermine
Apparently there was some laptop or something stolen
shut vine
Well basically someone manged to sneak a bomb in didn't they?
cosmic badge
Yes but fortunately it was dealt with, now imagine if it was more coordinated.
shy gulch
Security is one of the weird weaknesses
cosmic badge
That building and surrounding area could've probably been leveled.
tough cedar
the pipe bombs were believed to be a distraction to take even more police officers away form the capitol
shy gulch
Were those Pipebombs even real?
cosmic badge
Imagine a foreign terrorist element with access to materials to build "real" bombs snuck in with the crowd.
shy gulch
You have a point; although it's pointless to plant bombs unless your goal is to initiate terror.
shut vine
Intelligence plays a huge part
shy gulch
Sort of like how the RV Bombing guy.
tough cedar
if your goal was to just take resources away from the capitol then it's still a success
mystic ermine
FBI knew about the RV bombing guy, apparently
tough cedar
the articles said the bombs were detonated safely
shy gulch
30 minutes ahead of time to evacuate.
tough cedar
so i assume they were real
shy gulch
Yea, the FBI did; a years time.
cosmic badge
We could've had an actual "Designated Survivor" moment (not sure if people have seen at least the first season of that TV show)
shut vine
If not covertly coordinated most bombs can identified well in advance these days
sand shale
We could've had an actual "Designated Survivor" moment (not sure if people have ...
wonder who that would have been
cosmic badge
Well in that case it would still be Trump lol
But I just meant the scale of attack could've killed so many congressmembers
mystic ermine
You know, reminds me of my bro whos shooter don't work
brisk cradle
Anyway, the point I was making is that the video @shy gulch posted was misleading. I have seen it on social media under false pretenses. The American left, unlike the American right, does not have a consistent pattern of trying to incite violence to enforce their beliefs onto others. Extreme left-wing violence is rare (though it was big in the 60s and 70s), the real problem is right-wing violence (which has been a major problem since the 90s). https://www.snopes.com/ap/2021/01/06/experts-capitol-riot-product-of-years-of-hateful-rhetoric/
tough cedar
i thought he was joking with that video honestly
shy gulch
yea lol
tough cedar
most of those people were not democrat leaders
cosmic badge
Domestic terrorism seems to be more often than not, right-aligned.
tough cedar
they were just celebrities
cosmic badge
Correct me if I'm wrong though.
mystic ermine
who are heavily left aligned
tough cedar
still not democrat leaders 😄
brisk cradle
Yeah, I think most of them were left-leaning celebrities, not Democratic leaders.
shy gulch
They're individuals with high influence capability of the left-side.
Not "leaders" who control politics, but influence.
mystic ermine
I still regard them at the same level of concern as people with high influence on the right calling for action in the streets
brisk cradle
They're influential, but I'd rank them among more of a casual remark. That being said they should probably pick their words more wisely.
shut vine
I'd argue the same for Trump.
shy gulch
They're influential, but I'd rank them among more of a casual remark. _That bein...
The choice of words is indeed picked extremely wisely, and carefuly; attracted to their side yes.
mystic ermine
their words stand to prop up the left and stir action from the right at the same time
shut vine
Regarding picking words more wisely.
brisk cradle
i thought he was joking with that video honestly
Apparently not.
shut vine
However I don't think that's going to be an eventuality.
tough cedar
well yea i guess not now lol
mystic ermine
Sorta like antifa showing up at any proud boy protest armed and such
It's not gonna end well
faint radish
frankly, it doesn't matter whose side its on, once you start tolerating even a little political violence, which is most of the destruction that happened over the summer, its just gonna get more frequent and common.
brisk cradle
But, alas, the extreme left isn't listening to these people. They hate Democrats about as much as they hate fascists.
tough cedar
tru
faint radish
Which is why you have to oppose all political violence, even if its only destroying "property that can be replaced"
cosmic badge
Both extremes hate the establishment.
shut vine
Anyone should hate the establishment, or at least highly dislike it.
tough cedar
only 7% of the BLM protests over the summer were "violent"
mystic ermine
But, the rhetoric falls in line with riling up the right extremists as it "validates" their assertions
faint radish
only 7% of the BLM protests over the summer were "violent"
and the media seems to have given that 7% a pass
loud pelican
nah
shut vine
Yeah, what we're saying is zero tolerance for violence and rioting.
loud pelican
lots of them just get swept under
faint radish
you have to call it out everywhere
mystic ermine
shut vine
Tolerance of ideas is fine, tolerance of criminal behavior not so much.
shy gulch
🤣
cosmic badge
The "93% of BLM protests were non-violent" was a study done by some scholar I think, I don't know who.
It's not a media statistic.
loud pelican
like one that happened around my hometown
shy gulch
The only good thing about that protest was all the insurance companies paying out.
shut vine
Also people often forget Baton Rouge
brisk cradle
Also, a digression on antifa. Antifa is, broadly speaking, "anyone who opposes fascism" - and I'd hope pretty much everyone here does, in fact, oppose fascism. There are many different shades of it. Lots of people oppose it but have normal lives. Some people oppose it enough to rally for it and dox fascists. Others are willing to go violent.
shut vine
And the events of that year in Dallas.
loud pelican
ah yes, it's an idea
cosmic badge
There is no organized antifa organization to my knowledge. It's as you say, people who are anti-fascist.
faint radish
you can call yourself "anti-facist" all you want. The KKK considers themselves a civil rights organization, just cause you call yourself something, doesn't mean you are that
cosmic badge
Any rag tag group of people could get together and call themselves antifa.
mystic ermine
it's essentially small charters
loud pelican
well, there def are coordinated ragtag groups then
mystic ermine
at least from what I've generally seen from my bubble of media
Like, there's facebook and whatsapp type groups and such
cosmic badge
Any anti-fascist protestors could be easily labeled "antifa"
faint radish
its like the whole "BLM" thing, I think black lives matter, but I don't support the Black Lives Matter organization
shut vine
Yea I agree.
brisk cradle
Antifa is not an organization, it's more of a unifying idea, and some antifa people are so fervent that they will be more than happy to be violent.
cosmic badge
Proud Boys and such groups are clearly a lot more organized. Antifa seems to rely on small local chapters or like-minded groups of people.
faint radish
it certainly took the mayor of portland a long ass time to denounce "violent antifa". took him until new years day
mystic ermine
an idea which sees people organising in groups under the same name and flag
loud pelican
mental gymnastics
mystic ermine
Well, just so happened that that was when the deputisation order expired
shut vine
I do believe there is an organized group inside Antifa. I do agree it's not public facing though.
cosmic badge
I haven't seen any evidence of a centralized antifa.
shut vine
But that's not evidence based, more of a speculation.
tough cedar
are you doing a george soros type thing here...?
brisk cradle
Now, it's largely the same for the far-right, the difference is that they're differently organized. Antifa is mostly small cells, the far-right has much larger organizations and is much more centralized.
mystic ermine
wait, was it portand that was deputised? Too much crap going on for my ill brain
faint radish
Jerry Nadler called anitfa violence in Portland "myth"
cosmic badge
But we know Proud Boys, KKK etc are centralized to an extent.
mystic ermine
PB seems more proud to call to the public on social media
antifa seems to just be more sorta like walled off facebook groups and such
brisk cradle
And I can say this with confidence, the far-right is behind most modern domestic terrorist attacks in the US today.
mystic ermine
pretty hard to guage the measure of stuff from the outside unless we wanna go digging
loud pelican
what qualifies as domestic terrorism
shut vine
I'd agree with KKK, not sure I know enough about PB.
brisk cradle
The loons who tried to kidnap the Governor of Michigan and trial her in a kangaroo court? Far-right domestic terrorism, cut and dry.
faint radish
Why does it actually matter which side of the political spectrum the violence comes from? Does it change the response?
cosmic badge
@brisk cradle And it's not necessarily because the right is ideologically wrong, you can have sane conservatism, but their leaders/influencers peddle an extreme version of it.
shy gulch
Why does terrorism have to be defined with "politics" behind, why can't terrorism being defined as the act of inisghting terror to another entity?
brisk cradle
It doesn't change the response, if there was genuine far-left terrorism I'd condemn it just the same.
loud pelican
ya it does machine maker, unfortunately
shut vine
Well terrorism has a very specific definition. What domestic terrorism events have there been lately that can be attributed to extremist right elements?
mystic ermine
I mean, seems to me that if it's anything on the extreme right, fuck anybody with right leaning views, amirite
faint radish
well if it doesn't change the response, why does it matter? All it does is stir up crazies on the other side to response in kind
brisk cradle
@shy gulch Terrorism too comes in multiple flavors. It just so happens that the domestic terrorism in the US tends to be politically-motivated by right-wing grievances.
shut vine
Yeah, that's specifically what I don't like about right v left.
cosmic badge
I think when you think of modern day left-wing extremism, you might think "kill the rich" 😛
faint radish
I think it has to do with tribalism, and your side is right, and if anyone even remotely related to the other side does something bad... you gotta use the opportunity to say "Look, my side is better"
shut vine
Yea tribalism is stupid.
faint radish
like, look at the crazy guy who shot up the gov baseball game. was a bernie supporter and people on the right tried to say... look, a bernie supporter committed an act of violence
when it was really, just a crazy guy
cosmic badge
But with the way right wing messaging gets amplified, you end up in situations where people are attacking Muslims, for example.
brisk cradle
Examples of far-right domestic terrorism: the Oklahoma City bombing, the Centennial Olympic Park bombing, the Charleston church shooting, Charlottesville, the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, and of course, the people who have rammed their vehicles into protesters at BLM protests.
shut vine
Just looked it up myself, this chart is interesting:
https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/TNT_Graphics_Web-01.jpg
cosmic badge
Doesn't mean right leaning people hate muslims or jews, but it's easy for certain rhetoric to be amplified that way, they know who their audience is and they rile up hate.
faint radish
I mean... can I say Stalin as an example of left wing domestic terrorism? or Mao?
kinda on a different level, so prob not
brisk cradle
Examples of far-left domestic terrorism are much fewer - the only modern example would be the Unabomber attacks (Ted Kaczynski was anarcho-primitivist)
shut vine
Based on the statistics, it looks like an ebb and flow
cosmic badge
"Right" and "left" are going to be different depending on where you are. If we look at it in our context, you could probably say Mao is right-wing by our standards.
Well, maybe not Mao
But modern China certainly is
It's definitely not communist.
shut vine
Generally if you go far enough left you end up right and vice versa in my opinion.
loud pelican
uh, china is what?
brisk cradle
Sure, we can talk about horseshoe theory here. But that's irrelevant.
cosmic badge
China is not a communist state.
brisk cradle
China is nominally communist, but in practice is dubiously market socialist state capitalist with heavy authoritarian control.
cosmic badge
It's like saying North Korea is an actual Democratic Republic lol
China may have once adhered to more communist ideals in its past, but certainly today it does not.
faint radish
or like people who call themselves antifa while trying to forcibly shutdown speech on a public campus
brisk cradle
(I just realized I used the wrong term. Market socialism is something else entirely.)
cosmic badge
America also isn't a democracy. Surprise!
brisk cradle
America is nominally a democracy but in practice is an corporatocracy/oligarchy that tolerates political dissidents because not doing so is bad for business.
shut vine
Yeah, it's a Democratic Republic.
cosmic badge
To be fair I'm pretty sure internally China doesn't even consider itself communist either.
They are "on the path to communism"
shut vine
Doubt they consider themselves authoritarian either.
cosmic badge
True lol
faint radish
well I don't think we are nominally one either. the word doesn't make an appearance in the constitution
shut vine
Oh allegedly there was a leak of CCP information too about all of the foreign spies in businesses and politics.
brisk cradle
Occasionally, they'll even throw a bone to the dissidents to keep them happy for a bit.
shut vine
That or they get their family to commit them to "science".
cosmic badge
I believe that's what is understood to be the Chinese system of government at least within China.
brisk cradle
That's the case for the US and China. They'll throw a bone to try and shut up the bad PR.
shut vine
China is very fascist in many ways.
mystic ermine
Well, last I saw, some journalist over there was reporting on covid was jailed
and then there's that rich billionare who apparently called out the people who deal with financial regulation who's been missing for months
faint radish
Of the net 9.8 million jobs lost since February, women accounted for 55% of them.
shut vine
Dissidents in China have been known to be subjected to live organ harvesting.
brisk cradle
True. They've also been known to be shoved into "re-education camps" too.
shut vine
Yeah.
cosmic badge
Yeah I wouldn't want to live in China for sure. I'm sure it's a great place to live if you don't wrongthink or wrongspeak, but I do enjoy the freedoms I have in America.
brisk cradle
In the US, that would be a bad look, so the corporatocracy tolerates them.
shut vine
If China teams up hard with Russia it would be pretty bad.
cosmic badge
But I don't look at China and think to myself, "See this is why communism is bad!" lol
faint radish
oh yay, twitter deleted that china tweet
“Study shows that in the process of eradicating extremism, the minds of Uygur women in Xinjiang were emancipated and gender equality and reproductive health were promoted, making them no longer baby-making machines. They are more confident and independent.”
brisk cradle
Well, that tweet not only whitewashes what China is doing to the Uighurs but it's also quite sexist.
I mean, it's propaganda meant for foreign consumption, duh.
faint radish
Any time I see a government say "the minds of ... were emancipated" big red flag
shut vine
I'm surprised they have not banned Twitter.
cosmic badge
Yeah, meant to appeal to the western audience "Look, we love independent women!"
faint radish
wait twitter isn't banned in china?
shut vine
I mean, them posting that suggests not?
faint radish
Also, I think its pretty precious that china just got added to the UN Human Rights council (to the extend that the UN isn't a joke anyways)
cosmic badge
Pretty sure it is
mystic ermine
Yea, pretty sure it is
cosmic badge
Of course the Chinese government is exempt.
brisk cradle
I'm pretty sure Twitter is banned in mainland China for the average Joe. Perhaps only people who have to deal with the outside world or very high-up officials are allowed access with strict stipulations.
mystic ermine
You gotta be pretty high up or up to no good afaik
cosmic badge
China has its own internal massive social network
foggy fern
Twitter is blocked in China; however, many Chinese people circumvent the block to use it.[35] Even major Chinese companies and national medias, such as Huawei and CCTV, use Twitter through a government approved VPN
weibo?
cosmic badge
Which is state owned/managed and promoted
shut vine
Ah figures
foggy fern
Yeah Chinese twitter is weibo
brisk cradle
That makes sense, so they can make sure they aren't exposed to "politically inconvenient" content.
foggy fern
It's listed on NASDAQ
shy gulch
Isn't Jack Ma been lowkey / missing for the past few months 
cosmic badge
I'm surprised how China still manages to keep the population from asking too many questions still with how easy it is to bypass the Great Firewall
Also privileged Chinese travel a lot, too.
They understand the world outside
mystic ermine
Think people see what happens if you ask too much
brisk cradle
As long as the living standards keep going up, any discontent will remain below the surface. And of course, if you say bad things about the government, they will more than happily "convince" you to think otherwise.
cosmic badge
There's a lot of nationalism in China, to my understanding. As long as life at home is good, then their pro-China nationalism just gets reinforced.
shut vine
Also it's multi-generational, they're being conditioned to accept it.
brisk cradle
That's the core issue with China: the CCP is obsessed with stability. They need it to stay in power. That being said, they are facing some headwinds. The Chinese population keeps getting older, sex-selectiveness has resulted in too many men for not enough women (all of these are part of why they went from a one-child policy to a two-child policy). The living standards cannot keep rising forever and be compatible with China being the world's low cost factory. This is why China is branching out and planting its flag elsewhere and doubling down on anti-imperialism (haha, funny, considering that Communist China has effectively turned into a neo-colonial power itself) and Chinese nationalist rhetoric.
faint radish
eyyy, well who woulda thought, disney is looking to move more of its business to florida from california... I wonder why they want to leave California...
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/disney-california-florida-resorts-orlando
cosmic badge
Yeah China is just engaging in a different kind of colonialism 😛
dreamy glacier
Probably because floridans could care less if they die from covid
shut vine
Can't really be the sole reason, neither do Californians based on the numbers 😛
faint radish
yeah, florida, at the top of the list for cases... oh wait, not at the top? #25 you say?
way behind California, which is #3?
foggy fern
Is that per-capita numbers?
shut vine
That's per capita.
cosmic badge
Uh, per capita California isn't doing that bad.
faint radish
its 3rd for highest case number
foggy fern
California is doing really bad
faint radish
yeah... behind only arizona and rhode island
dreamy glacier
I mean number of cases doesn't necessarily represent the states willingness to comply with CDC guidelines
Or the people I guess
cosmic badge
Unless I'm looking at bad stats. Someone link the stats lol
brisk cradle
Well, Florida's political leadership (Republicans BTW) have decided they don't give a shit about coronavirus and would rather die to prop up an even-more unequal economy.
cosmic badge
Yeah California is doing pretty bad lol, didn't think it was that bad though
brisk cradle
DeSantis is simply lucky the situation is yet to deteriorate in Florida again.
cosmic badge
I assume California is also a lot more dense
brisk cradle
There's a new strain of the virus, it has already landed in New York and it won't be long before Florida gets it too.
foggy fern
Florida is mostly old people who don't leave the house anyway 😛
dreamy glacier
On the coast line it is dense, not so much inner cali though, (as far as I've been told)
cosmic badge
Yeah California cities appear to be more dense
faint radish
Florida is mostly old people who don't leave the house anyway 😛
arizona is mostly that... and look where they are
brisk cradle
Georgia is #9 on that list. I wonder why.
dreamy glacier
I wish my state had california pay
cosmic badge
Get a tech job, work remotely.
brisk cradle
Oh yeah, our political leadership doesn't care about the virus killing people either.
cosmic badge
A California-based remote job, I mean 😛
Probably a good chance you'll get close-to-California pay
foggy fern
LA is 8,564 per square mile, Miami is 13,143
I don't know why California is doing so much worse than Florida
cosmic badge
What? Hm
faint radish
Is it a good idea to follow the CDC guidelines regarding all covid stuff or not?
cosmic badge
Miami as a city is so small though
faint radish
Cause oregon doesn't look to be doing that
dreamy glacier
Yes it's a good idea
cosmic badge
Obviously the county is large, but the city is small o.o
foggy fern
Fair, the "city" stretch along half of the eastern coast line of the whole state
faint radish
oregon wants to decolonize its vaccine distribution, and not use the CDC's anyone over 65 guidelines
brisk cradle
Though it does appear that Florida's coronavirus situation is getting worse.
faint radish
I watched the 3 hour oregon board meeting where they discussed this
shut vine
Florida has 400 per square mile, California is 250
just posting this again for state wide resident per sq mile.
foggy fern
An hour once you hit the freeway, assuming the traffic isn't bad
cosmic badge
I think it's more useful to look at it per city and not state, just because if you look at it per state it would probably be too diluted
dreamy glacier
cali also has like 18 million more people
shut vine
Yeah makes sense.
foggy fern
California is mostly farms and mountains but Florida is mostly swamps
shut vine
I usually compare Miami-Daide county to LA County.
faint radish
this is per 100k population Yooogle, it accounts for that
cosmic badge
but even Miami-Dade county is pretty large and stretched wide
dreamy glacier
Yea, but there is 18 million more people crammed into a smaller mass of land
shut vine
He doesn't do math, only feelings.
foggy fern
House Minority Leader McCarthy is asking Republicans if he should ask Trump to resign, according to the NYT
cosmic badge
Saw that Mitch wants to ditch Trump 😛
faint radish
163,696 mi² > 65,758 mi²
dreamy glacier
Good point, I mis read
shut vine
Well he allegedly wants to.
dreamy glacier
Tbh anyone who still supports trump is a traitor to the country at this point
shut vine
There have been no direct quotes. Just third hand information.
cosmic badge
Allegedly, yeah. I wouldn't be surprised though.
Mitch wants to ditch him for the wrong reasons, though.
faint radish
Tbh anyone who still supports trump is a traitor to the country at this point
yeah!!! Unity!!
brisk cradle
My guess? Trump will resign, on the condition that Mike Pence pardons him.
shut vine
Realistically, for Republicans it would be a good strategic move to say publicly that they want to.
Handball the choice to Democrats.
If they don't impeach him they then look weak as hell.
If they do, they're just doing what everyone would do.
foggy fern
He'll be impeached by this time tomorrow
dreamy glacier
yeah!!! Unity!!
Unity? These people attacked our country. They should be in jail.
cosmic badge
Does Trump even still have any kind of meaningful voice to reach to his "audience?"
faint radish
all trump supporters attacked the capital?
dreamy glacier
Yes
shut vine
Yeah the unity message lasted a day.
faint radish
I didnt realize there were 80 million people there
foggy fern
The unity message lasted until their was an attempted coup
Now you disavow Trump or you're a part of the problem
faint radish
biden is still talking about unity
brisk cradle
My guess is that the House is going to impeach him, and since McConnell has turned on Trump, he will probably ask Trump to resign, with the threat of Republican votes to remove him if he doesn't.
dreamy glacier
Okay, all germans didnt kill the Jews. But those who supported hitler are just as guilty
cosmic badge
Once this all blows over and Trump is out of office, I wonder how many people will give a shit about him. I kind of doubt Fox News will allow themselves to be used as a megaphone for his antics.
shut vine
Alleging Trump attempted a coup is purely conjecture.
shut vine
Trump did?
dreamy glacier
Yes, he incited a riot to attack the capital building.
cosmic badge
I mean you could argue he dogwhistled the more extreme elements of his base, but even such an argument would lead nowhere.
faint radish
its not even 100% clear if the language Trump used the day of qualifies for incitement
foggy fern
He called them to the city and got up and talked to them before they marched on the Capitol
shut vine
He was for a protest, always said not to be violent.
dreamy glacier
Oh you all are full of it.
faint radish
incitement to riot has a high legal bar, and you can find lawyers who argue both sides of it
cosmic badge
Correct, the bar is very high.
On an individual level I think a lot of us agree, that's what he did.
shut vine
I think he inadvertently incited radicals. But you can hardly attribute their actions to his words reasonably.
cosmic badge
But also, fortunately, impeachment and conviction isn't held to a legal standard, or doesn't need to be.
foggy fern
He was egging them on after they got through the doors
brisk cradle
The insurrection was bitter to the GOP and it will cost them. Chances are, the GOP will try to forget he was ever president, but the base will remember.
cosmic badge
So he could still be impeached and convicted for that.
foggy fern
And them told them he loved them
faint radish
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/533469-swift-second-impeachment-would-damage-the-constitution
argues it was protected speech
argues the opposite https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/contributors/2021/01/08/trump-incitement-us-capitol-attack/6589465002/
ofc you can impeach for whatever you want
the house decides what a "high crime of misdemeanor" is
shut vine
Yeah advocacy for protest is protected speech.
faint radish
tons of leaders have said "we have to show strength", "march over there and show them you are serious"
brisk cradle
And the base loved Trump. Even in the aftermath, the people who left the GOP were probably soft Republicans, who could conveniently abandon the GOP at any time without concern.
tough cedar
might be able to get rudy on incitement with his "trial by combat" but probably not trump lol
faint radish
so the legal case for incitement to riot @dreamy glacier is not as cut and dry as one may think.
foggy fern
Don't forget Mo Brooks
shut vine
Yeah, let alone inciting a coup.
cosmic badge
But again, impeachment doesn't need to be held to any legal standard.
He could be impeached for perceived incitement to riot.
shut vine
Still think he was stupid to do anything more than a single statement about the election results, and intention to contest them.
faint radish
frankly, biden should be impeached if he says "Malarkey" one more time.
brisk cradle
Even after the aftermath of this riot, insurrection, coup attempt, domestic terrorist attack, ..., whatever you want to call it, the GOP base will remind you that the GOP is Trump's party and nothing more.
drifting arch
these two men in the house are not standing 6 ft apart. https://owo.whats-th.is/7nKhZYn.png
cosmic badge
frankly, biden should be impeached if he says "Malarkey" one more time.
That's malarkey.
shut vine
Biden cannot be impeached.
faint radish
well not yet...
shut vine
😛
faint radish
but im waiting for him to say it...
foggy fern
The FBI is tossing around words like "sedition" and "domestic terrorism" for their investigations
faint radish
gonna pounce real quick
I loved finding those debate drinking games
good times amirite?
foggy fern
Trump could easily be roped in on conspiracy charges with that
brisk cradle
Biden can't be impeached, and Republicans can try, but it won't go anywhere thanks to Democratic control of the House and Senate.
shut vine
Conspiracy also has a high burden of proof.
cosmic badge
Go back to 2016 debates, drink every time Trump says "WRONG"
brisk cradle
The FBI is tossing around words like "sedition" and "domestic terrorism" for the...
Agree
dreamy glacier
Im just waiting for Trump to get charged up the wall by the state attorneys when he gets out
faint radish
I think my fav moment from 2016 was when clinton was talking, and trump just said into his mic "well you should be in jail"
a classic
dreamy glacier
I think you have a really warped view as to what a president should act like
cosmic badge
Was a good burn, I mean don't agree with the statement but the comeback was good.
brisk cradle
Personally, I consider the Capitol storming to be a coup attempt that had shades of a domestic terrorist attack, but I digress.
faint radish
Im talking from an entertainment point of view here
not from what I want in a president
cosmic badge
Yeah same
faint radish
the debates last time had some serious entertainment gold
shut vine
I'm going to guess he wont be charged in a single state matter, the politicians will stop caring once he's out, but we shall see.
dreamy glacier
I highly doubt they will stop caring once he is out.
foggy fern
NY is definitely on his ass
cosmic badge
They might. People tend to have short memories.
dreamy glacier
He'll get charged with something
cosmic badge
But yeah I could see NY going after him hard
brisk cradle
The GOP is going to try and bury Trump as much as possible, the Capitol storming was a serious PR problem for them.
shut vine
I would agree the capitol hill event was a terrorist attack.
faint radish
the news cycle pretty quickly moves on...
tough cedar
its ok tux, just blame it on antifa
faint radish
its kinda crazy
tough cedar
over and over again and then it's not a problem for the gop anymore!
shut vine
Not the protest itself, but those who entered, and those who created/delivered the bombs.
cosmic badge
If there are issues with the way Trump has been running his businesses in New York, I do hope he gets what's coming to him. He won't be charged for anything he did as president, though.
tough cedar
yes yes and BLM too!
tough cedar
oh man, we need another 4 years so he can finish the wall and make sure this never happens again!
faint radish
no way a hispanic person could vote for trump right?
tough cedar
oop
shut vine
You know this chat isn't exempt from the rules right?
faint radish
yeah, trump only got 1/3 of the hispanic/latino vote... yikes
dreamy glacier
I hope that was obviously sarcasm
shut vine
Several of your statements fit zero tolerance items lol
foggy fern
Trump's share of the Latino vote was actually on the low end of the range for Republicans
dreamy glacier
I'll redact it tho
cosmic badge
Republicans only need to change their messaging a bit and they could capture so much more of the latino/black vote.
shut vine
Yeah idk how serious this chat takes the ZTI's
brisk cradle
I mean, they can blame antifa all they want, but everyone aside from the seriously misguided or the base will see it as the lie it is.
foggy fern
It was just surprising because he got basically zero support in 2016
faint radish
Trump's share of the Latino vote was actually on the low end of the range for Re...
was it? he did better this time than 2016 or romney in 2012
shut vine
It's disingenuous to blame Antifa for the Capitol Hill event without proof.
drifting arch
how much longer for these remaining 8 house votes?
cosmic badge
I really hope Republicans spend this opportunity to actually reflect on the last 4, no 12 years and seriously evolve their messaging.
foggy fern
Messaging isn't the problem, the message is 😛
shut vine
A right leaning reporter (who got on the no fly list, and was banned on all social media for attending the event), has debunked all claims of Antifa other than one.
faint radish
and better than mccain in 2008 @foggy fern
dreamy glacier
It's disingenuous to blame Antifa for the Capitol Hill event without proof.
Its disingenuous to claim that the election is rigged when there's no proof of that either
tough cedar
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55626148
Some of the misdemeanor charges filed so far are "just the beginning", he said, with officials looking at "significant felony cases" tied to sedition and conspiracy.```
i see what you mean amaranth
foggy fern
Messaging is the only reason they're at all relevant, Democrat policies are widely supported, just not the people who want to pass them
tough cedar
and the guy with the zip ties got caught the article said
brisk cradle
The GOP is really good at getting people to vote against their class interests, it's why they have such high support especially in poorer, rural parts of the community.
foggy fern
That's why Florida elected a bunch of Republicans but also passed a $15 minimum wage
dreamy glacier
cause who can say no to a decent wage
faint radish
americans also really want merit based immigration... but that doesn't seem to happen
brisk cradle
The core issue for Democrats is that they let Republicans do the messaging for them, therefore they lose.
shut vine
Minimum wage increases can be directly tied to unemployment increases.
tough cedar
- in some studies
shut vine
It's a statistical fact, the question is why not if it's true.
brisk cradle
You can lie with statistics too.
faint radish
federal minimum wages make no sense... $15 in kansas is so different from $15 in mahnattan
brisk cradle
Just look at Dream.
cosmic badge
The country will be a much better place when more hispanic/black people start voting Republican. Because when that happens, it means Republican messaging will have changed in a positive direction.
shut vine
You're only disagreeing with me because it's only a correlation.
I'm not arguing causation.
dreamy glacier
Everyone here is talking like they actually know what they are talking about.
And its funny
cosmic badge
The federal minimum wage definitely should not be $15 lol
That's absolutely batshit insane.
dreamy glacier
u right. 20$ is better
faint radish
yikes...
shut vine
If you earn $15 an hour flipping burgers you're being paid too much.
mystic ermine
That's one way to price out the market
brisk cradle
Also, I should mention that Medicaid expansion has passed in such strong Democratic strongholds like... Idaho, Utah, and Oklahoma
dreamy glacier
lol
cosmic badge
The cost of living is just different in each state.
faint radish
you cant mandate the price of labor for the whole country cause this country is HUGE
the cost of living in Oklahoma is vastly different from California, or New York
cosmic badge
$15/hr in some states you could be living like you make $50/hr in California
brisk cradle
It's an interesting causation that policies preferred by the most wealthy get action, whereas those supported by the general public usually don't. Hmm...
shut vine
The resolution to wage issues is a difficult balance.
mystic ermine
be interesting to see what happens if post-covid exists
several large companies are already closing their huge offices
Don't need to have vast complexes if most of your workforce can work from home
faint radish
apparently Biden has promised a $15 federal min wage
mystic ermine
and, magically, all the companies saying that work from home was unviable managed to pull it off 
brisk cradle
Offices downsizing and relocating to cheaper states is a direct effect of COVID-19 forcing work from home. If you don't need anyone in the office aside from critical tasks, then why invest in a giant office?
tough cedar
there was a study done that said by like 2024 we'd need a 15$ fed min wage for the entire country so you could at least support yourself
as a single adult
cosmic badge
Live in Tennessee and work from home, earn California wages 😄
Would live like royalty 😄
brisk cradle
I'm sure "business climate" plays a role too, but remote work is a much more plausible explanation than the fact Florida has no corporate tax.
shy gulch
a $15 federal min wage is crazy but it's definitely needed
mystic ermine
Yea. but companies have been forced into into accepting that they can do work from home, and with everything else going on, I can see this carrying on
shut vine
If companies have a higher cost to operate, their services and goods have to go up in cost to compensate
faint radish
there are tons of jobs in middle america where the labor isn't worth 15/hr
shy gulch
They've already gone up have they not?
cosmic badge
At the very least federal minimum wage should be adjusted for inflation
But beyond that, meh
brisk cradle
The "company" can move to Florida, but the workers can stay in California, or move to some other state that suits their fancy.
shy gulch
Housing and the cost of living compared to the influx of wages are incomparable
faint radish
here's a novel idea. Why don't states create their own minimum wages that better match their climate?
tough cedar
adjusted for inflation we should be at like 13$ an hour or something
shut vine
I can agree with it being tied to inflation since that makes economic sense
tough cedar
adjusted for inflation and productivity we should be at like... 23$ i think it was?
based on some high point in the late 60s
shy gulch
50 years ago; it was by far easier to save up, and purchase a home then it is now a days.
ten fold.
shut vine
It still doesn't solve the underlying issues though
shy gulch
Not at all.
faint radish
I just found out about this wealth tax thing bernie wants to do for the wealth gained during covid... nuts.
shut vine
If you force business to increase the wage they're paying, it just inflates the cost of goods/sevices
cosmic badge
Tax extreme wealth, somehow.
faint radish
just pick the start of the covid as the lowest point in the stock market. cause then you'll steal the most
brisk cradle
here's a novel idea. Why don't states create their own minimum wages that better...
You are literally suggesting we keep the current system. This isn't a real fix, in fact there would be a regression. For instance, my home state of Georgia has a $5.85/hour minimum wage. This is demonstrably worse than the already inadequate $7.25/hr federal minimum wage. You are essentially advocating for the minimum wage to be cut.
foggy fern
The cost inflation doesn't keep up with the wage inflation
It can't, past a certain point people will change behaviors instead
tough cedar
lets say you're making 7.25 right now
shy gulch
Have the cost / prices of goods and services not already increased all whilst minimum wage stayed?
tough cedar
and the min wage doubles
shut vine
Realistically empowering people to start businesses and get a good education is the foundation of a economically sound society
foggy fern
If McDonalds starts charging $20 for a meal people will go somewhere else or cook at home
faint radish
You are literally suggesting we keep the current system. This isn't a real fix, ...
but people in georgia voted people in who chose that, you can vote them out if you don't like it.
tough cedar
the cost of goods isn't going to double as well
cosmic badge
Nobody should have an individual net worth of over $5 billion dollars lol
tough cedar
the people will still have more purchasing power
cosmic badge
Redistribute excess wealth, some how.
faint radish
Nobody should have an individual net worth of over $5 billion dollars lol
that is absurd. take mr. musk for example, his net worth gain, isn't from taking money from other people, its literal wealth creation that didn't exist at all before
brisk cradle
but people in georgia voted people in who chose that, you can vote them out if y...
Our state is very well known for its voter suppression carried out by the people who'd rather people toil away for almost nothing, if you haven't read anything about it. It's the reason why Republicans hate Stacey Abrams.
shy gulch
How exactly did he make 200b?
cosmic badge
You don't need that much wealth.
faint radish
its not even "redistrubuting" it wasn't anyone elses in the first place
shy gulch
He didn't sell 50 million Teslas? He got his wealth from Investments no?
cosmic badge
Okay, call it what you want. Distribute it
mystic ermine
The big question is how do you allow people to invest into large new companies like spacex and tesla?
faint radish
its called stealing really
cosmic badge
No, it's called living in a society.
brisk cradle
For god's sake, a lot of American states are barely democracies - North Carolina provides a rather hilarious example of this.
faint radish
musk didnt cause his stock to be worth as much as it is...
it literally is NOT up to him
shut vine
Well not directly.
shy gulch
The big question is how do you allow people to invest into large new companies l...
Not too familiar with economics, so my guess would be funds for the company, not for the person.
faint radish
you'd force him to give up a majority of his share in Tesla to take his money away?
that would cause a huge upheaval
shut vine
I'd be up for that, give it to me.
cosmic badge
The big question is how do you allow people to invest into large new companies l...
Not sure, but some how so it's not tied to individual wealth and isn't easily accessible as individual wealth.
Nobody in this society needs an individual net worth of over $5 billion.
shy gulch
Isn't the point of a healthy and strong economy to have the flucutation of wealth, not frozen-wealth?
cosmic badge
Excess of such individual worth should be given back to society.
Call it theft, I don't care.
shy gulch
If you have excess billions lying around; that's frozen-wealth doing nothing?
cosmic badge
When so many people live in poverty, you have a social obligation.
faint radish
these people dont have 100 billion dollars in CASH lying around
shut vine
I mean, his net worth in liquid cash is nowhere near 5 billion.
cosmic badge
I understand that it's not cash.
shy gulch
What exactly is it then if it's not cash and why is it valued?
shut vine
It's mostly stock options.
faint radish
If you have excess billions lying around; that's frozen-wealth doing nothing?
no body has billions doing nothing.
its stake in a company
shut vine
^
mystic ermine
I'm not entirely sure that the poverty is a cause of people being stupidly rich
faint radish
they money bezos/musk have (again) wasn't taken from someone else
foggy fern
Company is worth $50 billion, you own half the stock, you're worth $25 billion
faint radish
wealth isn't a finite pie that each person has a share of
shut vine
Yea blaming poverty on wealth is like saying something is wet because something else is so dry.
foggy fern
Who says how much the company is worth? The board who decides how much stock to issue and the market who decides what that stock is worth
shy gulch
I'm a little confused on why somoene gets labelled a networth value when it's not liquid cash; I've never really been explained the "total part" of a stock.
If it's non redeemable; is it really worth?
faint radish
well its theoretically redeemable, but essentially yes, its almost non-redeemable
foggy fern
wealth inequality has mostly been a useful indicator of economic health
shy gulch
Can you purchase property with it?
foggy fern
The worse the inequality is the worse things are
faint radish
you can trade stock for other things sure
shy gulch
So it's an actual asset is it not?
faint radish
and you can certainly sell some of it if you need some quick cash
shut vine
But you may not get the exact valuation of the stock from those trading. Depends on what they'd accept.
faint radish
yes, its an asset. that has value, and you do own it
foggy fern
You don't sell your stock, you take out loans using it as collateral and use your salary and dividends to pay down the loan
faint radish
yeah, that sounds better ^
brisk cradle
Anyway, https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/12/politics/justice-department-capitol-hill-attack/index.html
Needless to say, I think we're going to get a very clear picture of what went down, and it will be very gnarly.
faint radish
well, musk doesn't get a salary
tough cedar
That's because federal investigators are grappling with a domestic radicalization problem, that presents complications due to First Amendment protections of political speech, different from radicalization tied to foreign terrorist groups. the benefits and woes of having such a robust 1st amendment
shut vine
Also if someone like Musk started selling lots of his stock in Tesla the price would probably take a huge hit.
shy gulch
Walmart generated $129.359b in profits in 2019. Does this not mean that $129b in actual cash and wealth are sitting around somewhere?
faint radish
well they probably spent a bunch of it...
Apple famously has like $250 billion in literal cash
shy gulch
Revenue was 523b
cosmic badge
Profits includes expenses. So that's take home money.
cosmic badge
Revenue - Expenses = Profit
mystic ermine
^^
cosmic badge
So Walmart paid everyone their wages and all their other expenses and still made that much money in profit.
foggy fern
Walmart pays out dividends, no?
cosmic badge
So basically Walmart could use that profit to increase wages
shy gulch
Who exactly has the rights to these funds?
Is it just sitting in a large walmart bank account?
faint radish
wallmart does pay dividends. Are those included?
for some reason I don't think those are included in expenses
shut vine
The most likely answer is the Board of Directors.
foggy fern
Those wouldn't be in expenses afaik
shy gulch
foggy fern
I'm sure Walmart had a couple hundred billion cash on hand though
shy gulch
14.881b
shut vine
They would approve budgets where the money would be moved from/to other accounts.
shy gulch
Amazon Net Income is 11.588b
cosmic badge
How much is Walmart claiming in profits on their taxes/paying taxes on?
foggy fern
Huh, $9.465 billion cash on hand as of 2020
brisk cradle
faint radish
well they pay 5,990,399,999.28 in dividends, so that some of it
foggy fern
Where is Walmart sending all that money? It has to be dividends then
faint radish
it looks like $6 billion in dividends
brisk cradle
This should've happened earlier.
shy gulch
Tesla Net Income was 862,000,000 in 2018
faint radish
walmart only has ~8 billion cash on hand
shy gulch
How exactly does Elon Musk hold the title of the richest person? This part confuses me.
faint radish
his company is worth like 800 billion
cosmic badge
His net worth, which includes his stocks
faint radish
has nothing to do with revenue
faint radish
market value, is based on what value investors see in the company
and it changes all the time
shy gulch
So his wealth is determined on what other people invest in it?
cosmic badge
He would never be able to claim his entire worth in liquid.
shy gulch
Oh
faint radish
SpaceX is his other big holding, but that is a private company so they don't have to release any internal financial stuff
shut vine
Finally. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/01/12/flint-wat...
WTF, they actually are finally are doing something? Like that whole thing was disgusting, including what Obama did.
shy gulch
So lets say all of america decided to donate $500/e
How come he's not eligible to withdraw / cash out
faint radish
people didn't donate the money
shy gulch
I know
faint radish
they bought a stock, and the value of it went up
so it's worth more than it was before
that's the wealth creation part
foggy fern
If Musk starting selling off his Tesla stock there would be more in the market than the demand so the price would fall
Especially since demand would be deflated from seeing the creator selling off all their stock
shut vine
Also would likely scare investors.
faint radish
there is a fixed number of shares.
shut vine
Scared investors dump stock.
brisk cradle
WTF, they actually are finally are doing something? Like that whole thing was di...
Everyone failed, but the problem and fallout was precipitated by Rick Snyder and the "emergency manager" he appointed to run Flint. Snyder is the one whom most of the blame needs to go to.
Snyder caused the problem and he should be jailed.
shut vine
Oh I agree. Was still disgusting how Obama treated them when he visited.
Just glad finally something is being done.
shy gulch
So the only reason Tesla skyrocketted no pun intended; was as a result of them having potential to return investments in the near future?
foggy fern
They thought Obama coming meant things were about to finally get fixed
brisk cradle
It was Snyder's administration that decided to switch the water source for Flint. He is the one who is responsible for it.
foggy fern
Instead he drank some water and said it was fine
mystic ermine
He didn't even drink it is the fun part
faint radish
yes, investors saw tesla as being undervalued for what it does, so they bought stock assuming it would go up, and it did
shut vine
He gaslit the fuck out of them.
mystic ermine
There's video of an angle which shows that all he really did was placed it to his lips, licked them and was like, oooh, refreshing
shy gulch
Meaning Tesla has the potential to generate serious profits and revenues in the near future?
faint radish
not really
shut vine
He did that twice by the way, and said it was NOT a political stunt.
faint radish
that is sometimes a part of investment strategy
but it takes big companies a long time to be consistently profitable
mystic ermine
stocks are worth nothing until you try to leverage them, basically
foggy fern
If the price/earnings ratio is high that's supposed to mean investors think the company will be worth that much in the future
faint radish
it took Amazon YEARS before they made a profit
mystic ermine
the value of your stocks is generally more comparable to the hype behind them rather than the actual value of them
faint radish
its all about future potential
shy gulch
Lets say I invest $2,000,0000 into Tesla, do they use this $2,000,000 into bettering there company? and in return my investments gets interest applied?
foggy fern
No, you gave $2m to me to sell my stock
Tesla only gets money when they issue new stock
faint radish
well you aren't giving your 2mil directly to tesla, someone already did that when tesla released the shares
foggy fern
Trading afterward they don't get anything from
faint radish
companies issue new stock, or sell stock the company holds when they want cash to do something
shy gulch
So how does my wealth impact Tesla in anyway if the funds aren't being applied to them
mystic ermine
it doesn't
faint radish
the price of the share only affects tesla when they sell stock themselves, or issue new stock
foggy fern
Starting to feel like I'm teaching my grade 10 economics class 😛
shy gulch
Starting to feel like I'm teaching my grade 10 economics class 😛
I know jack shit about economics or stocks, so when does class start?
foggy fern
I'd direct you to my teacher but I can't remember his name
faint radish
companies sometimes buy back stock when they feel their own company is undervalued, so they can sell them at a later time to make a profit
and if they issue new shares, that can lower the price a bit because there is new supply, sometimes only temporarily tho
foggy fern
If the share price gets too high they might also do a stock split to get it back in to the day trader range
faint radish
some companies don't like being in the day trader range
like amazon
their share price is like 3k right?
foggy fern
That's where they take your 1 stock at $100 and tell you now you have 2 stocks at $50 each
faint radish
apple seems to like being there
foggy fern
Apple has done a lot of splits
faint radish
maybe 27:1 split? I forget latest
shy gulch
I know of Stock Splitting but I just can't wrap my head around the fiatness of the money and so forth, if Elon's Networth is $200b and 95% of it's inaccessible is it really money I can't wrap around it.
foggy fern
Apple is a brand, they like it that their customers can also buy 1 share
faint radish
its not inaccessible, it would just be unwise to "access" it
foggy fern
Keeps them invested (literally) in the brand
faint radish
elon wants to have the control he has over the company
mystic ermine
take tesla, maaaaannnnny people will argue that teslas stocks are over-priced
shy gulch
Is it possible to fuck over the company and just withdraw all $800b?
foggy fern
No
mystic ermine
You'd be an idiot to buy tesla stock under that basis
foggy fern
Think of it like pokemon cards
mystic ermine
But, at the same point, there is such a hype behind it, it may get even higher
cosmic badge
I think what Nermin is saying is, is it really $200B if you can't just liquidate it all into that estimated worth 😛
foggy fern
He has a box full of first edition charizards (shares) that the market says are worth a lot of money
faint radish
well I think people like to include stock holdings in net worth cause it makes the number higher, and everyone loves a new highest whatever
like movie box office numbers
no one every adjusts for inflation
foggy fern
They're keeping score
faint radish
cause Gone with the Wind would destroy everything
shy gulch
So his $800b is solely-dependent on the amount of people whom have put money into the Stock itself then
faint radish
well he doesnt have 800b
shy gulch
Yea
faint radish
that's tesla's net worth, not his
foggy fern
cause Gone with the Wind would destroy everything
I wouldn't put it like that
faint radish
the amount of people who own stock isn't a factor
shy gulch
The amount the people put in?
foggy fern
oh I think I looked at domestic Amaranth?
faint radish
also, Apple was the first company to get to 2 trillion market value, unadjusted for invlation.
yeah, I def was looking at worldwide then.
foggy fern
There is a gap but it's not in a different ballpark
faint radish
adujsted for inflation, the Dutch East India Company, would've been worth 7.8 trillion
but they had an army so...
kinda a different sort of company
foggy fern
Apple was the first to 1 trillion, unless I'm looking at a different measure none are at 2 trillion yet
shy gulch
Considering over 2 trillion was dumped into the economy over the past year and a half; where has all this wealth gone? surely there's a large collector no?
faint radish
apple is at 2.17 trillion right now
foggy fern
Oh, this page stopped in April
shy gulch
How much currency is in circulation right now?
foggy fern
Less than 1% of all wealth, surely
faint radish
if you are talking about literal paper money, that question doesnt mean anything
cosmic badge
Fed Reserve says $2T as of Dec 2020