I'd say no, mostly because if we actually took this seriously kids wouldn't be out of school long enough for it to be a detriment
#politics
shy gulch
yea
foggy fern
Kids can be carriers even if they don't get sick, what wasn't clear last time I looked in to it was how effective of a spreader they were
If you don't have symptoms there should be less of a chance to spread it but it's not zero
And some kids do get sick and die still or get some other issues
shy gulch
I feel like COVID's severity's starting to die down a bit, I've seen a lot more people outside lately as compared to before and not taking precautions as they're governed.
foggy fern
You can only be scared/anxious for so long before you become numb to it
shy gulch
Exactly, eventually people will just say screw it this isn't worth it
foggy fern
Then you start taking more risks
restive seal
And then more people start dying.
foggy fern
Which is why we should have locked down harder sooner
Instead we seesaw between people getting sick of dealing with it, things getting worse, people getting worried about it, and things calming back down a little
shy gulch
What's your view on free speech? The things going on with social media at the moment
I'm not too up to date with what Donald Trump has said to insight the violence at the capitol
foggy fern
If you think a company has enough control over things for that to be a concern anti-trust is the solution
Anything else is a violation of their 1st amendment rights
shy gulch
I was thinking, if you sign up on a platform you don't only abide jurisdiction, rules are platform-based as well.
Platforms have a final say no?
faint radish
You think schools aren’t essential? Seriously?
foggy fern
Platforms should have the final say on who can say what on their system, yeah
Unless you want to regulate them as a utility
shy gulch
You agree to their policies, regardless of who you are.
foggy fern
Regulating them as a utility would also wipe out their ad systems and you'd have to start paying for them
faint radish
Children, especially little ones, lose massive mental gains if they are away from other kids for long enough times. Small children need the social interaction that school provides.
restive seal
Then we should have locked down harder, sooner, so we could get back to teaching safely.
faint radish
Education is regularly voters number 1 issue.
restive seal
"think of the children" certainly didn't happen when it came to preventing spread of this deadly virus.
shy gulch
Don't politicians target the older?
Which just makes me want to implement a maximum age for voting
restive seal
And hold up, how is education a number one issue when we regularly vote down school budgets, cut programs ...
foggy fern
I certainly wouldn't mind doing something to social media to reign them in on things but I wouldn't have "allow Donald Trump and Qanon people to post whatever they want" on the top of my list
Top of my list would probably be "stop existing" but below that would be improved privacy laws and anti-trust action
shy gulch
Yeah, privacy and anti-trust regulations need to be more strict.
That's kind of hard in a pyscho-capital / consumer-targetted society.
foggy fern
Better transparency and limits on how they can be used for elections would be on there too
faint radish
Is Twitter a monopoly?
foggy fern
No
faint radish
Where’s the stricter anti-trust need come from then?
faint radish
Why? There are a zillion social media platforms.
foggy fern
Competitors existing isn't the benchmark
faint radish
Are monopolies illegal?
faint radish
No they aren’t
shy gulch
Doesn't that depend where?
foggy fern
The original reading of the Sherman Antitrust Act says they are
faint radish
Using monopoly power to crush businesses are illegal.
foggy fern
Later case law changed it so we only go after them for abusing their monopoly
It would be easy enough to go back to the original reading
That case law was originally meant to not punish companies who naturally took over a market
But now it applies to companies that did so aggressively and aggressively defend their position but you can't show for sure that this harms consumers
For the last decade the goal of startups in the tech industry hasn't been to make it big, it has been to be big enough and worrying enough that one of FAANG buys them up
faint radish
And original reading of the Sherman act is kinda problematic tho...
However, the law was so poorly worded that people weren't sure what the law was supposed to do
It should 100% not be illegal to have a monopoly that you obtained by simply being better than everyone else, having a better product.
Because then you are punishing innovation. If you use your power to crush competitors, that’s an issue.
foggy fern
If you maintain that monopoly by buying out or crushing any potential competitors though...
faint radish
Because then you are punishing innovation. If you *use* your power to crush comp...
.
foggy fern
But we don't go after Google for such things because they give all their stuff away for free and when Google buys something they usually make it free too
faint radish
The justice dept is suing google right now.
foggy fern
I thought that was a coalition of states
faint radish
Yes, coalition of states and the federal justice dept.
foggy fern
Oh, Justice and Texas filed their own separate cases
Feds are suing for over Android, Texas is suing over ad tech, 38 other states are suing over search
faint radish
Also, back to Sherman act for a second, the original Sherman act would consider me selling chairs I made myself, a monopoly cause I was the only provider of those chairs.
raven hearth
"Having a better product". Yes, but hypothetically - would be bad if that reason you have the best product is that other companies cannot innovate in the field due to being blocked out by some resource or fundamental design ownership which blocks other companies from being able to even create something in the category.
Vague ^, but mainly pointing to patented designs which have corporate ownership when are fundamental enough that should be public domain.
Cannot think of any example right now, but sure that happens in some areas. Not really applicable to social medias - but definitely some manufactured goods
faint radish
Maybe you are taking about patented drugs?
foggy fern
Patents are meant to be monopolies
faint radish
I’m responding to chickeneer
foggy fern
The trade is you get a government enforced monopoly for 20 years but you make your innovation public so everyone can see how it works
faint radish
Also, walled gardens might fall into that @raven hearth . But I think walled gardens are good.
foggy fern
Some changes are probably needed there but that system is so complicated and the changes would need to be different for different industries so... yikes
I think the main problem with patents is it seems laches don't apply
So you can have submarine patents
raven hearth
Like I said. Some patents are good. Needs to be some level of protections for corporations. Definitely drugs (good kind) is a classic example of it not being completely good.
I am somewhat uneasy with certain patents on internal components to a larger product. I totally get those companies need to make their money and return on their research investments. But if there is some sort of safety risk to not using those patents. or withholding the use of those component patents when it is fundamental to that bigger product. idk
foggy fern
I mostly hate the patents on standards
If you're putting something out for everyone to use for interoperability you shouldn't be able to patent it
raven hearth
Yeah. I can't pretend to know more on the subject. Just enough to know there are flaws...
And on the subject of Monopolies. That there are situations that are problematic to the greater good
foggy fern
Problem of course is they'd just file the patents anyway but not take part in the standards process and then come after you later still
restive seal
So you can have submarine patents
Nah on a submarine they're hatches not laches
foggy fern
Seriously, this guy needs help
opaque prairie
all the stuff i have seen on parler is truly insane
sweet canyon
155k views in 7 minutes?
valid falcon
So, I have encountered something that I am not sure how to process.
I have varying thoughts. I will try to lay this out.
I'm in a regional photography group on facebook. People share photos they have taken, ask for feedback. They discuss photo tech.
A person asked for hardware advice to take better portraits, landscapes, street photography... And people are responding well to this. I was about to write a response, but I noticed the profile photo was a US flag being moved aside for the blue line flag. I decided to look at the user's profile. It was filled with extremist messages, ultra nationalism, conspiracy theories... I am sure you have seen such things before.
It dawns on me that this user is new to the group, has documented their own public history of this kind of stuff... If I lend assistance in any form, what does that do?
Should I be considering what I can about this profile, given that it has made its details public?
Or should I just proceed as normal. Someone asks a question, help them.
I would say the latter, but recent events have me thinking about this. I'm not saying try to dig or anything like that. But if it is plainly visible, should I consider that? Idk.
I mean, in this instance, it is just camera and tutorial advice.
But that little voice in me says, wait. Think. -- and now I am stuck.
I don't know what to make of this. I find it to be too difficult to process.
I guess this week's events affected me more than I realized.
loud flax
Daryl Davis (a black man who converses with KKK members) has done almost unthinkable things like helping out and lending his bus to a group of white supremacists in need, and bailing out one of their own, etc. This is a hard place to be and it's probably normal to feel this way. I honestly don't know how to respond in your situation. My example may be a bit different though, as what Daryl did was show his humanity to someone not used to that kind of thing. Perhaps giving this person advice wouldn't do much at all for them other than answer their question.
valid falcon
That is an interesting example to consider.
loud flax
they may not think much else other than someone did something they were expecting
valid falcon
I'll do some reading about Davis.
near glen
Can somebody explain to me why being an antifascist is bad?
I thought fascism was the bad thing, so being against it is good, no?
mystic ermine
6 months of cities burning, 50 odd people killled...
There is a difference between saying that you're anti facist and basically being one or two sides to a pointless war/battle
near glen
Ok, so basically, being anti facist is ok, it's just a radical minority again that's doing dum shit and thus making everybody look bad?
mystic ermine
being anti facist has nothing to do with people who are against antifa.
People are against antifa for the pointless riots and burning cities down
near glen
Anti anti fa = pro facism, no?
opaque prairie
Wasn’t those riots BLM? Not antifa?
mystic ermine
BLM + antifa
last I knew
Both groups sorta where there, radicals from many factions started rioting, etc
near glen
"Antifa is a left-wing anti-fascist and anti-racist political movement in the United States. It is highly decentralized and comprises an array of autonomous groups"
No it's not one group according to wikipedia
opaque prairie
Cause BLM is like, and actual group, and my current understanding is that antifa is not really a group, and has been used as a calling card of some big enemy organization
mystic ermine
Okay, it's a few dozen hundred groups made out of different charters more or less
Like, there is 100% organisation there and well known instances of people organising together under the name antifa
as to what extend those organisations go, I got no idea
near glen
Ok, so being an anti facist is good, being part of a radical violent Antifa group is bad?
mystic ermine
Yes
near glen
Oh cool Antifa is a german invention
"The name antifa and the logo with two flags representing anarchism and communism are derived from the German antifa movement."
opaque prairie
I just hadn’t ever seen an example of an antifa “group” so i’ll go take a peek for that
mystic ermine
there's known instances of facebook and whatsapp groups with hundreds of members and such in them
No idea to what extent that they're reported and stuff, but, i've seen a fair bit of coverage over it
Then again, I mostly tend to listen to right leaning media as it tends to be more tolerable than ORANGE MAN BAD
near glen
Heh this is fun to read
"There have been repeated calls by Donald Trump and William Barr to designate antifa as a terrorist organization[23] despite the fact that it is not an organization, a move that academics, legal experts, and others argue would exceed the authority of the presidency and violate the First Amendment."
mystic ermine
last I knew, they where essentially a chartered organisation
Well
maybe not like one huge ass organisation, but, sorta like, different states and cities often have sorta like their sub group which have their own facebook page and all that lot
So, I guess it's really where do you draw the line for it
opaque prairie
Yeah, idk I am struggling to find stuff that’s like: Yeah this is an organization and here is who’s leading it, I’ve found like, here’s some buddies who claim to hate fascists and went out and rioted together
near glen
"In August 2017, a petition was lodged with the White House petitioning system We the People calling upon President Donald Trump to formally classify "AntiFa" as terrorist. The White House responded in 2018 that federal law does not have a mechanism for formally designating domestic terrorist organizations.[138][139][140] The writer of the petition later stated he had created it to "bring our broken right side together" and to "prop up antifa as a punching bag".[141]"
Kek
Sounds about right, the extreme right needs an enemy, so they paint Antifa as this big terrorist organization
opaque prairie
What article is that? Mind if I give it a read?
mystic ermine
I mean, I'm not extreme, am sorta like centre realist
opaque prairie
Or is that just Wikipedia lol
mystic ermine
maybe a marginal pessemist
General gist is that anybody who's smart knows that they're not a big terrorist organisation
They're sorta like several dozen "small" groups all uniting under the same flag essentially
near glen
It's wikipedia, yeah
I guess ppl just throw radical anti facist and anarchists and everything into one group so they can have a target
mystic ermine
pretty much
near glen
Completely ignoring the majority that is just fighting racism and stuff
mystic ermine
I mean, the way media paints shit in general is pretty shit and likely to cause to issues
It's almost like the media gains massively from tryna stir the proverbial pot to create drama and shit
almost
near glen
Apperently the far right tries to inpersonate Antifa to paint them as bad in the public eye, wikipedia lists all kind of twitter bot attacks with fake accounts and messaging
Another image featuring an injured woman is captioned "She chose to be a Nazi. Choices have consequences" and includes the hashtag #PunchANazi. Higgins remarked to the BBC that "[t]his was a transparent and quite pathetic attempt, but I wouldn't be surprised if white nationalist groups try to mount more sophisticated attacks in the future".[18] A similar fake image circulated on social media after the Unite the Right rally in 2017. The doctored image, actually from a 2009 riot in Athens, was altered to make it look like someone wearing an antifa symbol attacking a policeman with a flag.[186]
"Another high-profile fake antifa account was banned from Twitter after it posted with a geotag originating in Russia.[19] Those fake antifa accounts have been repeatedly reported on as real by right-leaning media outlets.[17][21]"
Heh, russia and right extremist working together, who would have known
mystic ermine
I have doubts they're working together at all
I mean, conspiracy theories and all, can you imagine how much countries like russia and china would gain if they turned the US to a civil war?
near glen
"On May 31, 2020, @ANTIFA_US, a newly created Twitter account, attempted to incite violence relating to the protests. The next day, after determining that it was linked to the white nationalist group Identity Evropa, Twitter suspended the fake account.[197] An FBI's Washington Field Office report stated that members of a far-right group on social media had "called for far-right provocateurs to attack federal agents, use automatic weapons against protesters" during the D.C.-area protests over Floyd's killing on May 31, 2020.[153] "
near glen
I mean, conspiracy theories and all, can you imagine how much countries like rus...
Yeah, but i mean, russia is clearly attempting to divide the country, as do far right ppl like trump, so they have the same goals really
Not sure if they are actually organized, but i wouldn't be surprised if there were direct connections
Kek, ppl claim antifa was behind the storm of the capitol? Lmao
This wikipedia article is really interesting
Either it's written by Antifa, or the media is playing into the narrative of these right wing extremists idiots
mystic ermine
Yea, the blame on antifa seems to range from "it was 100% them" and "they ended up stirring and leading others into it"
near glen
And missportraining it
When everybody knows, if the left was behind it, we would be wearing black hoodies and not look like a viking or wear camp auschwitz shirts, lol
mystic ermine
not really
if you're tryna pretend to be on the right to stir violence in the rights name, you'd dress up as the right
near glen
Oh that's the conspiracy, i see
The right are the good ones and the left only impersonate them
foggy fern
Trust me, those idiots didn't need antifa to get things started
faint radish
While I totally agree antifa didn’t have anything to do with the US capital attack, they do have something to do with the destruction that’s been happening in Portland over the last few months. Even the way progressive lefty mayor of Portland called out “radical antifa and anarchists” after a bunch of destruction on New Year’s Eve.
foggy fern
Oregon in general has problems with extremists, that's where most of the right wing groups start or are most organized/violent too
The fights around the civil rights movement never stopped there
They've just been more active than normal this year and drawn in a lot of new people
mystic ermine
people literally barricaded some police station and tried to set the place on fire
It's scary af just thinking of that shit
and the comedic watching the first thing that happens when some group of idiots go to attack a car and somebody speeds through and their first action is "call the police"
foggy fern
I thought the barricaded and on fire police station was in Minneapolis
mystic ermine
ot too sure, probs was there
foggy fern
That was boogaloo boys
The BLM folks watched and cheered but boogaloo boys started the fire
mystic ermine
Just :/
I mean, they all generally want the same sorta thing
set the world on fire and stand glorified in the chaos that ensues
foggy fern
Not really, boogaloo bois (forget they use that dumb spelling) want to kill all federal police and police-looking people
elder portal
Looks like amazon finally gave parler the boot
loud flax
let's face it
man this stuff is just terrible
but like, is any of it surprising?
America is a cancel culture, not a healing one, this does not surprise me in the least
it's easier to distance oneself from those they disagree with than to attempt to understand them
foggy fern
It turns out when you provide a space for extremists to congregate and radicalize new members everyone agrees that space shouldn't be allowed to exist anymore
Well, once the news starts talking about it anyway
Before that they just want to make money
After that you're bad for business
elder portal
Basically, imagine Amazon hosting a space for human trafficking and media calling them on it
It's a matter of where the line is drawn, not that it should be yes or no
Where does it go from censorship to removing a bad thing entirely?
That said, you can also think of it like one business telling another they they no longer want to do business with them
loud flax
problem i have with these kinds of people is that they're the kind of people who would throw away the system because of some cracks in it
elder portal
Because parler is also a business
And Amazon doesn't want to do business with them any more
Which many people would agree is correct
Especially when Amazon's image is on the hook
It makes good sense for them to distance themselves from parler
foggy fern
Their employees also demanded it
elder portal
There's many ways in which you can think of this as not only legal, but fair
But looking at the bigger picture it's deplatforming
That said, it's deplatforming radical extremists
So I mean..
foggy fern
If parler had any moderation @LLinWood would not be on the platform anymore
They claim they have a TOS and all the stuff people complain about is against their TOS but they are unwilling and/or unable to do any moderation and Apple got the impression they were only going to pretend to do it long enough for Apple to stop looking at them
stiff terrace
Oregon in general has problems with extremists, that's where most of the right w...
Oregon is pretty peaceful outside of a few areas in Portland afaik
foggy fern
This is a couple years old but these are all the groups in Oregon that SPLC classifies as a hate group: ```
III%ers Security Force
III% United Patriots
American Patriot Party
American Patriots III%
Central Oregon Constitutional Guard
Embassy of Heaven
Freedom Bound International
Freedom from Government
Heirs of Patrick Henry
John Birch Society
McCutcheons Ink.
News With Views
Oath Keepers
Southern Oregon Constitutional Guard
Spectre Training Group
State of Jefferson Formation
Three Percenters-III%ers
The Voice of Freedom
You Have the Right
Very patriotism
foggy fern
I guess I don't know if it happens much outside of Portland and Salem although if not that might just be because rural areas don't have many liberals to fight with
That last article also goes over the ties between those groups and police
near glen
near glen
Twitter
weary obsidian
Damn Arnold's video was powerful
near glen
Yeah it is
This is really nice, they taking the biggest street of paris, and just rebuilding it and banning cars
foggy fern
Huh, good point from one of the sunday shows, how the fuck did we allow Confederate flags to be carried by an attacking force into the US Capitol?
near glen
I mean, those ppl killed an officer, who was trying to protect the hearth of the democracy
This is what these animals did to him
foggy fern
Oh Arnold made the same point about the flag
near glen
Twitter is already trying to track down the murderer https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1348248594227351553?s=19
Twitter
(thread)
foggy fern
Also Arnold just said our democracy is strong but brittle, probably shouldn't have made the forging analogy 😛
And gets more brittle every time it is tested
near glen
"people"
Yeah, they are murders
That's what police is investigating anyways
They technically only murderer when a judge says so
foggy fern
lol, so this is a thing https://www.centerstreet.com/titles/andy-ngo/unmasked/9781546059585/
If you look at some of the links I posted about Oregon earlier he is prominent in them
Basically the on the street PR guy for white supremacist groups
near glen
Ah, the tucker carlson quote made it obvious 😂
foggy fern
Twitter
clear maple
Even there Lawyers https://twitter.com/MatthewKeysLive/status/1348372956246732800
foggy fern
Yikes
near glen
Way past the line here
tough cedar
because they aren't calling out a specific person, or detailing how they have a plan of action to murder democrats i think it's still legal
near glen
Mmh, I wonder if they are smart enough to know that line and walk it
small root
What the fuck is Parler and why are conservatives freaking out about it
near glen
Twitter for white supremacists
near glen
Cancelled by apple, google, amazon and apperently their own attorneys
clear maple
near glen
Oh and they ask for you ssn
small root
Yeah I’m seeing conservatives freaking out that the internet is purging all conservative viewpoints
tough cedar
nah, just purging the above viewpoints
near glen
"Internet" is purging nazi accounts
tough cedar
i guess if they want to associate that with a conservative viewpoint tho... yikes lel
near glen
If that is a threat to your conservative viewpoints, then you should reevaluate them, lol
small root
Well, I myself wouldn’t be threatened if Twitter started banning nazis, because I am not a nazi
tough cedar
these guys are going so far right i'm going to end up looking like a progressive to them lol
near glen
Exactly
small root
Lot of really stupid people in this world lol
near glen
Yeeeaaah
small root
There was a post at the top of r/conservative saying that a civil war is coming soon in America
near glen
I don't understand why anyone can believe that a unmoderated online platform can or should exist
Parler is basically a circleyerk for ppl banned on normal platforms
tough cedar
it's not even unmoderated tho lol they ban people who aren't right wing enough
near glen
Gotta keep the circle yerk clean ^^
I wonder if america will finally learn that unlimited free speech is bad and leads to shit like this
small root
Isn’t voat one of those too
small root
Well, you shouldn’t have the freedom to incite violence, spread propaganda, spread misinformation purposefully, etc...
near glen
Voat also was a reddit clone, parler is more of a Twitter clone?
near glen
Well, you shouldn’t have the freedom to incite violence, spread propaganda, spre...
Exactly
America needs to learn that
small root
I like twitters take on it by marking stuff like “Fact checkers say that this is incorrect”
near glen
Well, tbh, what should happen is gov mandating these things
The platforms shouldn't make the rules
Gov should make laws about exactly how platforms need to behave and how they will be hold accountable if they don't fight for these rules
small root
Yeah, I think something as important as social media should be government maintained
near glen
Can't let suck suck decide what's right or wrong
small root
But that’s because I’m a socialist
near glen
Gov maintained is extreme
I am not sure if I would argee with that, as gov is also often incompetent and slow
small root
I trust private companies less than the government
near glen
But gov for sure should regulate the shit out of the platforms
Oh yeah, i trust the gov more too
But private companies are often better
small root
Government is mostly incompetent and slow because it’s structured so fucking badly in the US especially
Sadly we can’t just redo everything
near glen
I can assure you its not much better elsewhere
small root
Oh I know
near glen
And ye, that's what I always say, germany is in a relatively good position because we redid everything
Multiple times
Thanks for that, hitler
Lol
small root
Yeah sadly progress is often only made from tragedy
near glen
Which takes me back to the analogy arnold used. You can beat a sword countless times, it will only get stronger
Anyways, I wonder what america will make out of this tragedy
Biden sure has a hell of a job to reunite this mess of a country, after it has been actively devided for at least half a decade
Not sure if I trust him to be able to do that, but he sure has my good wishes, lol
small root
I’m fairly certain it’s going to get worse
Our response to the attack on our government and near assassination of many of our members of Congress is honestly shocking
I hope it opened people’s eyes a little bit more that maybe we shouldn’t be playing with kid gloves against some of these groups
near glen
Well, next time nazis try to storm.something, you just gotta call the police saying an friendly BLM protest is happening there, I'm sure the responce will be better
Anyways, i just found this gem, https://twitter.com/silentkil_er/status/1348343347522408449?s=19
And with that, am going to sleep now
foggy fern
They'll just go to https://gab.com/ now
Except it's outright nazi race war twitter while parler was mostly just pro-trump but also white supremacist twitter
So a lot will decide they don't want to associate with that crowd, it's a bridge too far
gab frontpage doesn't look too bad right now because it's all parler refugees
This is the longest I've had to scroll to find a post blaming the jews or saying the solution is to kill all black people
opaque prairie
well uh, yeah apparently
dusky raft
Gab is going to be a tougher nut to crack compared to parler
considering they dont rely on cloud services besides cloudflare
but it will depend on how long CF will keep them for
foggy fern
dusky raft
move to bitcoin?
shy gulch
yea a lot of censorship is providing crypto a lot of and I mean a ton of attention
which isn't bad.
foggy fern
You can't pay rent with crypto, gotta turn it in to real money at some point
shy gulch
Well of course not yet.
😎
Then again, if you're smart enough to deal with crypto-currency; as confusing as it already is, you're probably not gonna pay rent with it either (at least right now)
foggy fern
The only time I'd be willing to use a payment system that doesn't have fraud protection/chargebacks is in person and that's where you use cash
shy gulch
The issue with crypto currency, I'd feel is the knowledge gap.
If everything was extremely dummed down, and simplified; (which sounds like an interesting* project) I could guarantee you that it could have a higher potential for growth.
foggy fern
So it's like GPG, a neat idea but no one will ever use it 😛
Also unless by crypto you mean etherium it also can't scale to anything close to what would be needed for people to pay rent with it
shy gulch
I just mean any crypto currency in general; not to 1 specific network or currency.
foggy fern
Even with lightning bitcoin would need 20MB blocks to scale to that level
20MB blocks turn it into china currency
(which it mostly is anyway)
shy gulch
The thing I dislike about currency in general is the concept of how we moved away from gold and turned it in fiat.
Was it Nixon that eliminated the gold-withdrawl or something like that in 71?
foggy fern
I think that was the greatest advance in economics since the invention of money
Nixon stopped telling the lie, we stopped being on the gold standard pretty much immediately
shy gulch
What evaluates the value of currency*?
foggy fern
We do
faint radish
everyone
foggy fern
It's metacircular 😛
shy gulch
Well, there's usually a specific cause and effect no? The more people being born; the more jobs that are needed; the more food needed; the more resources needed as an example.
mystic ermine
it's more how the people trading it are willing to trade it
Back in the days, there used to be this thing called the gold standard
Now it's a bunch of computers and idiots playing battle of the bets or something
foggy fern
Which wasn't a real thing since at least WW2
We got everyone to use the dollar as reserve currency then stopped letting them trade dollars for gold
Nixon was the one that finally just made it official that there was no relation between dollars and gold
shy gulch
Is currency calculated on a global-scale, or is it usually per-country based?
foggy fern
global
shy gulch
I've also always wondered; why does gold hold it's value, aren't there tons of more scarce resources which hold a lot more meaning?
That's one thing I could never grasp the idea of.
foggy fern
Congress and Fed have some control over dollar valuation but it's mostly the markets
They can just tweaks the inputs to the markets to try to get the output they want
mystic ermine
it was just a common enough thing that it became a standard to trade it
foggy fern
Before Europeans found America gold was a very rare precious metal
Most currency was silver
mystic ermine
Sorta like how you go into a store and hand over cash, that cash is technically worth fuck all, but, it's something you wanna trade because it represents a value of something you're willing to exchange in return for X
foggy fern
That's why they were so hyped about how abundant gold was here, it was worth a lot of money in Europe
Then they had so much they started using it as the money
shy gulch
I thought water would be more precious and a valuable / useful resource; but gold isn't consumed it's traded, you don't really trade water.
Water is only consumed.
mystic ermine
the water companies trade water with you for money
shy gulch
yea
foggy fern
Most of the practical uses of gold are better suited by using silver or platinum although gold has the advantage of being more corrosion resistant
shy gulch
It's just a thing which doesn't expire or goes away nor can it be "consumed" other than jewelery.
mystic ermine
But, it's water, there's so much of it and it's a critical life thing, so we hand it out cheaply otherwise we'd all be fucked
shy gulch
I wonder if an out of the world currency is a plausible idea, space+ currency, currency that doesn't apply to this earth type thing.
foggy fern
You're using a bunch of gold to read this message 😛
mystic ermine
I mean, an interstellar currency is possible, but, if we meet aliens, they may consider us inferior and the moneys worth be basically 0
shy gulch
Unless they have a currency or material which is considered valuable in which we can exchange which probably wouldn't happen.
We'd probably need an interstellar militia, which at that point other countries would probably attempt to dominate the world
I doubt Russia U.S. and N.K would ally up to defeat martians.
mystic ermine
I'll let you probe me for some latinum wink wink, nudge dundge
shy gulch
I could imagine the news headlines saying we're at war with aliens lol.
foggy fern
Whoever controls the orbitals controls the world, unless first contact is pacifists they'd just drop rocks on us until we give them anything they might find of value
shy gulch
That's probably the most interesting avenue of innovation is space expendture / exploration. The only thing that weirds me out is oxygen supply in space.
If we somehow manage to evacuate earth how do we inhabit a non-oxygen layer / zone into a breathable environment.
faint radish
you can make oxygen from other stuff
shy gulch
That's where it's gets dangerous / serious if your life revolves around a machine which is prone to failure.
faint radish
well that's why you have more than one machine
I drive in a car that is prone to failure in a way that might kill me
shy gulch
If oxygen is globalized is what I'm a little scared of.
If the entire planet is glass-domed and the oxygen machine whatever it is that converts it somehow fails and all end points shut off etc.
It's probably a per-person rather than per-star
mystic ermine
I mean, for something like that, you'd generally aim't to like, you know, backups
faint radish
backups, regular maintenance checks, etc
mystic ermine
But, really, glass dome is just not viable I don't think long term
faint radish
well LONG term, you want to terraform
mystic ermine
Pretty sure you'd be on the realms of terraforming if you wanted long term inhabitance
faint radish
but that technology just doesn't exist yet
shy gulch
Also wouldn't temperature have to be considered?
faint radish
like, ideally on mars, you'd want to thicken up the atmosphere so all you need to walk around is a breathing mask
well thicker atmospheres raise temperatures
more CO2 in the atmosphere
shy gulch
And scarce resources Kepler 452b for example
faint radish
well interstellar travel is a whole other thing.
shy gulch
Yea
faint radish
The generation ship problem is very interesting.
Say you have a ship that will take 400 years to reach another inhabitable planet. You launch today. BUT in 100 years, you will have a ship that will take 200 years to reach the same planet.
when do you launch such a ship?
shy gulch
When it's both reasonable and viable.
They'll probably just wait till they can reach a speed that doesn't take over half a decade to go interstellar.
faint radish
yeah, I think that's the best solution
shy gulch
If we can reach 1/4th light that'd be awesome.
faint radish
that project starshot or whatever its called to get micro sats to 10% of light speed is pretty neat
using lasers
shy gulch
Even 10th is insane.
faint radish
well, just whip up some alcubiere drives and no speed limits for you. (well, kinda)
faint radish
yeah, acceleration requires a force
space isn't 100% empty, so you are always experiencing some resistance, but its really pretty much 0
shy gulch
can you exhert force upon pyhiscal yourself somehow?
if you get disconnected from a space-cable for example
you go flying off and your thrusters are off (hypotheically)
shy gulch
Yeah
mystic ermine
movement is relative, speed is relative
faint radish
like while swimming, you are pushing against water
mystic ermine
in a perfect vacumm with no external forces, if you're going X fast, you're gonna stay going X fast
faint radish
no such place really exists, but yeah, theoretically
mystic ermine
Now, technically, there is air resistence in space, so, orbits do decay, as well as gravity existing which if you're in an actual orbit, you will eventually stop in a giant vapour cloud somewhere pretty much
faint radish
gravity of all matter is exerting a force on you. A planet billions of light years away, is right now, exerting a gravitational force on you.
shy gulch
Space is interesting
Now the one really weird thing I couldn't ever grasp my ahead around is the expansion of the Universe.
mystic ermine
faint radish
something I don't know, is does gravity have a speed? or does that question even make sense? Like if the mass of an object gets larger, am I instantly affected more by its gravitational force?
foggy fern
gravitational forces do appear to propagate at the speed of light
shy gulch
Is the Universe growing? or are we revealing more of a location which was unseen before.
mystic ermine
Pretty sure it's actually growing
faint radish
the universe is expanding, I think faster than the speed of light
mystic ermine
^^
shy gulch
What exactly are we growing into? Another unknown / unseen force, abyss / universe?
mystic ermine
I mean, the universe is just where everything exists
space could be an endless void with objects hurtling into it
faint radish
yeah, I think thats a good way of thinking about it, the universe is what is.
mystic ermine
We could be one universe of many on some huge ass void
elder portal
shy gulch
Can we safely assume we're growing into void / nothing?
elder portal
Self-own
shy gulch
Cause doesn't growing imply the expansion of a single property at the loss of another?
faint radish
dont think you can assume anything about what's outside the universe
right, but the laws of our universe are just that, and only apply to our universe
shy gulch
So the outer-parts of the universe are safe to say could be* lawless?
faint radish
who is to say we would even recognize another universe? matter might not be a thing, something we can't possible comprehend could exist.
well no, everything in our universe follows the same law, as far as we know, but its any bodies guess at what is outside of it.
shy gulch
Ah.
That's the hardest part of science and realms of knowledge is the outside of the universe
Or just incomprehendable.
faint radish
well idk if its even really a part of "science", it might be unknowable
like right now, what is inside a black hole, is by definition unknowable, as nothing can escape
shy gulch
Now how does the starting point* theory hold a notion here?
The universe holds an age (I believe?) not sure how it's defined, by size?
shy gulch
You can't really say there was a point in time where the Universe didn't exist can you?
If time doesn't exist beyond it?
faint radish
well sure, I think the general consensus is time started at the big bang
shy gulch
Was the Big Bang an eruption of an already-existing thing?
Like a black-matter exploded into existence which was already there before?
or infinitely present
mystic ermine
time as we perceive it
Well, one theory was that the expansion would stop and everything would fall back into itself, thus leading to another big bang
shy gulch
that's terrifying lol
faint radish
yeah, but most of the people who do this for a living don't think that's the case because the the universe is getting bigger, faster.
not getting bigger, but slower
shy gulch
what do we see in terms of the united states infrastructure in the next weeks / months
Shit's getting spicy right now
faint radish
nothing. honestly, and I don't think this is a good thing, I think in a month, maybe less, it wont even be a story anymore. Nothing really stays a story that long. Unless trump is like indicted or something, then itll be a story for a bit, but really, I dont expect anything more crazy to happen.
shy gulch
NBC just mentioned something about the senate going through with impeachment?
faint radish
yeah, it might happen, it might not... 🤷♂️ they don't have a lot of time. biden becomes president in 10 days. Apparently they could still try to impeach trump after he's gone, to prevent him from running ever again, but I think with Biden's big focus on unity, I don't see that happening. Unless the dems just wanna milk it for donations.
I'm really cynical about all politicians, so my gut tells me the democrats just want to have impeachment always a possibility so they can fundraise off it. Rs would do same thing, (in fact some DID fundraise off of overturning the election).
shy gulch
yea
faint radish
I don't think for a second Josh Hawley, or Ted Cruz actually think Trump won in a landside.
they are both intelligent guys, but just played politics wayyyy too hard with this, and itll probably end their political careers
shy gulch
i feel like covid's gonna lose it's attention this year as well
faint radish
well that is good to hear, with the vaccine being distributed, I certainly hope so.
I hope US foreign policy takes center stage, I am really encouraged by https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/10/06/unfavorable-views-of-china-reach-historic-highs-in-many-countries/
in many ways, I think china did what the USSR did, just are way better at it. The soviets would've dreamed about a surveilance state that china has, and they don't have the economic problems the USSR did.
iirc, the chinese legislature (equivalent of congress) has never voted down a proposal.
shy gulch
Jack Ma the Alibaba guy's been missing for a few months
restive seal
they are both intelligent guys, but just played politics wayyyy too hard with th...
I'm not sure intelligent is the right word to describe the sedition caucus, considering how close ziptie gang got to sitting congresspeople
faint radish
Jack Ma the Alibaba guy's been missing for a few months
he isn't missing, he just hasn't been seen in public. his people say he just laying low. He apparently said some negative things toward the gov, so ya.
restive seal
he isn't *missing*, he just hasn't been seen in public. his people say he just l...
Incredible poor life choice, speaking poorly of the govt. Got too comfortable?
faint radish
I'm not sure intelligent is the right word to describe the sedition caucus, cons...
yeah, idk what he was thinking
well they aren't dumb. I liked ted cruz. I didn't know anything about josh hawley, but he attended some of the supposedly best universities.
being intelligent doesn't mean you are a good person. (godwin law inc.) Hitler saw a situation in a country, and manipulated it to his advantage. You can't be dumb and do that.
hitler works in soooo many situations, its amazing.
(and that isn't a hitler comparison, its just that hitler works as an example of something in like 50% of all online discussion situations)
restive seal
Yeah I'm not suggesting unintelligent because bad person, but because their actions led to the capitol event. The sedition caucus members either legitimately want to overthrow the election and damage democracy which is incredibly dangerous and dumb, or want to fundraise off the folks who do which is further encouraging these idiots which is also dangerous and dumb.
faint radish
yeah, I don't believe at all they want to overthrow the election and damage democracy. They wanted to do what was politically good for them, which was make sure trump supporters still like them.
cause there are a TON of trump voters out there
I think they probably didn't fully understand what the consequences would be?
restive seal
Which makes them as smart as a sack of rocks.
"Trump is encouraging damage to our country i think I'll support that!"
faint radish
again, smart people can make really dumb choices too. being intelligent doesn't carry a stipulation that you aren't allowed to make bad choices
they made a really un-smart choice.
restive seal
To reuse a phrase I heard today, room temperature IQ kind of choice. :P
faint radish
lol, I like that
restive seal
It's even more insulting outside the US, due temp scale
faint radish
ofc, if you live in Phoenix... that could be a 125 IQ choice
(if you turned off your AC)
but I measure temperature in Kelvin, so ya, take that!
stiff terrace
Trump needs to be in prison tbh
faint radish
I don’t think it’s smart for the Biden admin to pursue that. You just wanna see more people get violent?
You run into a “if the government tried to take away everyone’s gun in Texas...” situation.
foggy fern
We went through this with Nixon, letting them off didn't solve the problem
faint radish
I think more people now say it was a good thing to pardon Nixon. (Not saying Biden should go as far as pardoning him)
faint radish
We went through this with Nixon, letting them off didn't solve the problem
You think putting Trump in jail would solve the problem? Trump isn’t the problem. It’s the situation that created trump.
The real root of the problem.
You aren’t gonna suddenly convince 10s of millions of Americans you are right by putting their candidate in jail.
He will be involved in legal proceedings the rest of his life, just as he was before he was elected. I just think it would be unwise for the Biden admin, when they’ve been talking unity, unity, unity, to make it a part of their agenda. You want people to support you? Fix the coronavirus mistakes, show some actual tangible fixes for the tens of thousands of businesses that have had to shut down.
And don’t do anything nuts, like try to pack the court, or smth. If Biden comes in as a stabilizing influence, doesn’t rock the boat, and actually does something, it’s a good look for the Ds.
The senate still isn’t able to do anything crazy, so at least I don’t have to rely on Biden to hold back from some of the nuttier stuff.
near glen
faint radish
The No Fly List is so bad.
near glen
Why?
faint radish
There is no due process
The ACLU has a big problem w/it.
Apparently initially, there was no challenging mechanism, but the FBI was sued over that and so now there is,
near glen
Ah interessting, who maintains it?
faint radish
The FBI
near glen
And they just put whomever on it?
cosmic badge
The problem was that people could be placed on a no fly list for years at a time. They aren't against a no fly list existing.
Obviously they are useful in situations like this.
near glen
Well, no challenging process also sounds bad
I don't actually know if something like this exists in the EU
cosmic badge
Just like police shouldn't be able to hold you in jail indefinitely without due process, you shouldn't be able to be held on a government mandated no-fly list for years at a time without a way to challenge it.
But if it's a temporary thing pending more details, then it's all good
faint radish
https://aclu-or.org/en/cases/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed-0
Apparently it’s still not good enough then?
Unless that’s a news article, I might’ve misread headlines
Well I certainly misread the date. Google says May 2020.
cosmic badge
And unless in this specific instance people are being indefinitely (or effectively indefinitely) held on the No Fly list, it doesn't matter.
faint radish
BUT! The bit about due process being brought up can totally transition to something else. Gun control, and how red-flag laws are certainly unconstitutional.
cosmic badge
These are people who law enforcement are actively pursuing. They should turn themselves in and seek their due process.
There's an argument to be made, the ACLU has certainly made it, but I highly doubt this specific instance of No Fly is a good example.
faint radish
I really want to know if the ACLU would do this today. https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie
I’ve lost like 90% of the respect I held for the group, and if they wouldn’t, I’ve lost all respect.
near glen
Today it's more controversial, since you don't know it that group will storm the capitol while at it
faint radish
Well this is in a Chicago superb, so I doubt it.
near glen
But, standing up for the right of protest, no matter what opinions they represent, isn't entirely bad
faint radish
And back then, you also didn’t know if the group was gonna be violent when it came down to it.
That was the argument the city made against allowing the March, that it could incite violence.
near glen
Ah ok, if that's the reason the protest was denied, that's ok
faint radish
And the possibility for violence isn’t enough to override free speech.
The ACLU successfully argued that you can’t restrict it.
near glen
You don't override, you limit (at least in sane countries where freedom of speed isn't unlimited)
cosmic badge
Seems obvious that neo-nazis and racists should be able to exercise their constitutional right to peacefully assemble and protest, even if their ideology is bigoted.
near glen
But yeah, under US law that's an interesting case
cosmic badge
As long as the ideology itself isn't promoting or inciting some kind of violence.
faint radish
Well you can’t limit it in the US. Unless they are literally inciting violence, the possibility of inciting violence isn’t a limiter for speech.
near glen
Sadly
cosmic badge
Certainly you can believe in the idea of white supremacy without endorsing violent genocide.
And if that's all they're doing, let them.
faint radish
Sadly
🤷 I disagree. The “possibility of violence” is so much more subjective than “actual violence”.
I don’t want the government saying what could be violent
near glen
Which is why you can challenge the decision to not allow a protest here in court
It's not the gov anymore then
faint radish
Who has the burden of proof in those cases?
cosmic badge
A city does have to consider its law enforcement capacity though. Let's say you have a bunch a peaceful neo-nazis assembling in the city to protest. Then imagine counter-protestors who then start getting violent against the neo-nazis.
near glen
It happens all the time here, sometimes the protester win, sometimes the police wins
cosmic badge
The city may determine that it wouldn't be able to contain the level of violence that might erupt.
near glen
Who has the burden of proof in those cases?
No clue, never looked into that
faint radish
Well that’s a big part of it. If you, the protester, have to prove that it’s ok, that’s bad.
The government should have to prove why you cannot.
near glen
You would mostly try to disprove the statement the police put out or show that its wrong in another way or smth
But that's just guessing
faint radish
If you have to challenge the gov’s decision, it certainly sounds like it’s on you to prove it.
That still leaves open avenues for abuse by the government, if only temporary abuses.
cosmic badge
While on paper I agree with a neo-nazi's constitutional right to assemble/protest. In practice, I agree with the city that such situations could easily escalate into a level of violence that couldn't be contained given the highly controversial nature of it.
faint radish
While on paper I agree with a neo-nazi's constitutional right to assemble/protes...
Yeah, issue w/that is, first amendment doesn’t have an exception for when it’s not convenient. Government could always just use that then. Just never have “enough” law enforcement and not allow anything.
near glen
I think it mostly goes like, gov says "this is why they shouldn't be allowed to protest", protesters say "this is why we should be allowed to protest" and judge decides
cosmic badge
Right, as far as the constitution is concerned, you're supposed to just let it happen and then clean up the mess afterwards. If violence or deaths happen, you'll prosecute after-the-fact.
The city would rather take the stance of not allowing any potential violence to occur in the first place.
near glen
For example, in germany we banned bunch of q protests cause they have a history of not wearing masks, so q tried to challenge it, up to our highest consitutional judge, and they agreed with police, so no protest for them
faint radish
The city would rather take the stance of not allowing any potential violence to ...
Well they might rather have that, but I’m glad they can’t.
faint radish
For example, in germany we banned bunch of q protests cause they have a history ...
How does that work if I just get a bunch of people together tomorrow and have a protest?
Can’t really challenge it if it’s the day of.
near glen
You can
Those cases are quick high prio
And you gotta inform police about big protests in advance
So they can figure out a security concept
To protect the protest, and to protect the city
faint radish
Oh, see that’s bad. Shouldn’t have to get permission to protest, or tell anyone. In the Us, you can get a permit if you want logistical support by police, but you certainly don’t need to.
I think some of the differences Americans and most Europeans have towards this stuff is really a result of just having different cultures.
Like take gun ownership, if I understand this correctly, lots of Europeans don’t understand why Americans want to own guns, is that close to right?
America did not have a significant standing army until WWI. Before that, you defended yourself, or had a local militia to defend your area. The citizens were the first line of defense. So literally everyone had a gun. And that is part of the culture.
near glen
Yeah, america is just yet to grow up
Other countries are much older and learned their lessons
One example, we stopped having decrees after hitler abused them
faint radish
Yeah, america is just yet to grow up
Well... I’d quibble with yet. I’m glad I can own a gun if I want. It’s literally the best way to protect myself. On the liberty-to-safety scale, I’m definitely situated well on the liberty side. And you know, liberty also includes the freedom to destroy yourself. If you can’t fail, you probably aren’t that free.
near glen
Americans and europeans just have a very different meaning to the word freedom here
faint radish
Yeah, I think you are right.
near glen
And yes, i do believe that america will have to move more left in the future, cause more social stuff is the only proven working response to stuff like job loss thru automations and shit
faint radish
I understand my freedom exist because I exist. No government gives them to me. The first amendment is worded saying that, “Congress shall make no law ...prohibiting the free exercise thereof”, which implies that the right already existed. By default, I have all rights, the government only takes them away.
“...endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...”. Take “Creator” however you want, but it’s not the government.
near glen
It way different in german. The laws are formulated universially. "The human dignity is unimpeachable" for example
Oh that's actually worded differently in the offical translation
Whatever
Give the starting paragraphs a read
faint radish
Offend against the moral law. What is that?
faint radish
Is it defined somewhere?
near glen
So like, you can't deny holocaust
Don't think so, as the values of a society can change
faint radish
That seems pretty subjective
near glen
I am not a constitutional expert and shit
faint radish
I found this book the other day, probably gonna buy it cause it’s talking about this sorta thing. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594038392/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_t1_xFb.FbPCMAKC3
near glen
It's just a very different viewpoint. In germany, the citizens gave themselves a constitution, which gives them rights
I would argue the american viewpoint creates a hostile relationship to the government
faint radish
Yeah, the founding papas made a constitution to protect rights they believed they already had.
near glen
We as a society were just way more mature when we gave ourself the current constitution, compared to the wild west when america got his
faint radish
It does create a more hostile relationship. They just fought a war to beat back a hostile government, they had no faith in a government of men, so they made one of laws that severely restricted what the government could do.
near glen
Yeah, exactly
faint radish
I don’t think human nature changes at all
near glen
That's sad
faint radish
It doesn’t change... well if it does, it’s in evolutionary timescales
near glen
I mean, the american consitution is like 250 years old or smth
How many generations of ppl are that?
It's fair to say that we as mankind have evolved
faint radish
Over 250 years? No. Not at that level. Technology has improved, standards of living have improved, but human nature hasn’t changed. Human nature is a trait that takes evolution to change it.
near glen
I disagree, our values have changed
faint radish
But that isn’t the same
near glen
In those 250 years, we went from selling human beings, to actively working to save our environment for example
faint radish
I don’t think that’s a part of human nature.
That’s less about what we think, and more about how we think.
What are our drives at a primal level?
Well, mainly it’s too survive, but go a little less primal than that.
Cause that’s just everything-nature. To survive.
I don’t think owning slaves was ever a core aspect of human nature. It was probably more general than that. Well, first of all, there wasn’t a social stigma against it. Humans are social creatures, and we do want to fit in, cause that increases chances for survival. There is also the financial gain of having a working that doesn’t cost you much. Which also increases your survival likelihood. The “science” of the time said black people were inferior. We look back on that with horror and don’t understand how anyone could conceive of owning another human, but a lot of that is we just came later. If I was born 250 years ago, there’s a really good chance I’d have no issue w/slavery. And you might argue, well that’s a change in human nature, but no, owning other people wasn’t a part of human nature. Maybe it is that basic, we want to survive. And well, we’ll take the best route to do that.
near glen
Well, am gonna argue then that the I isn't becoming less important, and the We is getting more importance
(relatively, not absolutely)
faint radish
What is the cultural mashup in Germany like?
faint radish
Germany doesn’t collect race demographics?
faint radish
I did, and I saw several places saying Germany doesn’t collect that info?
near glen
But race is a pretty strange term, it's scientifically disputed
near glen
We do collect data of ethnic minorities am pretty sure
Scroll down to ethnic minorities
"Germany is home to the third-highest number of international migrants worldwide after the United States and Saudi Arabia."
Interesting
faint radish
Well ok sure. I don’t think people consider American an ethnicity right?
near glen
Cause you got no culture and traditions? 😂
faint radish
Well I don’t think that’s true
near glen
Because that's the definition of ethnicity iirc
Smth smth group of ppl who share culture and traditions
"the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition."
Ah
And yes, I wasn't serious, in my mind, just the whole obsessesness with freedoms is enough to make me view that as its own ethnicity
And like, why wouldn't it be an ethnicity?
I would argue everyone is part of at least one ethnic group, right?
But yeah, that page shows that we are pretty multi cultural over here
But: it's not as visible i would argue. We don't have a large black population, compared to like the USA or even france
faint radish
Well, am gonna argue then that the I isn't becoming less important, and the We i...
If this stays true for a couple hundred years, check back in w/me and I’ll agree. But it’s wayyyy to early to tell.
I agree it’s happening, but I don’t know if it’s even remotely permanent
near glen
Maybe that's why we don't have as much "wars" between the ethnicities, the differences aren't as visible
Both with your eyes, and like in the daily life, segregation isn't that bad here
(i actually don't have data for that, it's a feeling)
faint radish
Both with your eyes, and like in the daily life, segregation isn't that bad here
I don’t follow what this means?
Is there a typo somewhere?
near glen
Better?
faint radish
If you are talking about segregation between races, it seems that’s making a comeback in the US. Everyone splitting off into their race groups, putting their race in their Twitter bios, introducing themselves with their race. The KKK are probably thinking to themselves... how did they do it too themselves?
Some colleges are doing segregated dorms.
I don’t get that. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/american-colleges-segregated-housing-graduation-ceremonies/amp/
near glen
Yeah, i don't get that either
It most likely would be incompatible with anti discrimination laws here i think
faint radish
Well what’s so strange, is it’s being done in the name of inclusivity/diversity.
near glen
Idk, i think i would have to talk to ppl who call for that to understand them
Maybe it does make sense
It's hard to judge as somebody not part of a minority
shut vine
In the recent election in California they put forward a change to the constitution to eliminate discrimination laws for Government Run Departments. Currently nothing run by the Government is allowed to consider identifying characteristics in any decision, and must do so by merit alone. i.e. a school can not decide to take/not take a student due to their skin color. It got a 42% yes vote.
Majority of people in the Los Angeles area said yes, and same with San Francisco.
LA County was over 50%, same with most of the San Francisco area counties.
Think it's Marin county, San Francisco county, San Mateo county, Santa Cruz county, and Alameda county. Though my geography may be misleading me.
cosmic badge
LOL
So thanks to an exploit in Parler, whitehats have created a way to gain access to all of the private info like state ID/driver's license photos used for verification during Parler registration which the FBI and other federal agencies will use to track down offenders.
Can't really blame Twilio for this. It's due Parler's negligence that attempting to recover an administrator's password defaulted to allowing the requester to directly reset the password instead.
Should be common sense to anyone in web development who has ever designed/developed an authentication backend.
cosmic badge
Parler is fucked, nobody, not even its users can trust it anymore lol.
random furnace
near glen
Yeah, now we know why the fbi is so quick to fill the no flight lists, all the parler data (including deleted stuff and private stuff) is basically public now
Parler seems to have shut down everything to try to recover from the "attack"
cosmic badge
Well AWS also revoked their hosting, so that could be it too?
Also seeing a lot of complaints regarding anti-trust, but as far as I can tell, Parler isn't being deplatformed in a coordinated effort to kill the competition, they are being deplatformed for being in violation of each provider's terms of service.
near glen
The community leaching the data had a "botnet" of ppl running a docker image that downloaded 50 gbps of data
random furnace
Apple and google de-platformed them and even better theyre both now on the malicious url blacklist
cosmic badge
I agree we should have more options in the market for large-scale hosting, mobile platforms etc, but this doesn't seem like an instance of coordinated anti-competitive behavior.
cosmic badge
They all did, to my understanding. Moderate your shit or fuck off
They technically can still make the decision to moderate their platform and relist their app.
random furnace
yes, but I doubt that will fix it
cosmic badge
After all, Apple, Google, Amazon AWS are all businesses. They have a terms of service that is written to appease the general public. If Parler choose to violate those terms, it's bad for their business because it creates an unwelcome spotlight.
To put it simply, Parler was bad for business.
A lot of people seem to think that providers like Apple or Google should be compelled to allow content as long as it's legal. This is, of course, dumb.
Being a racist is legal. Inciting violence is mostly legal. Doesn't mean businesses should be forced to give a microphone to those who do.
cosmic badge
The bar is really high for trying to prosecute people for speech that incites violence.
As far as the internet is concerned, I think it should be considered a public service and anyone should be allowed to build infrastructure or at least not be denied access at the lowest level. If you want to run a hosting service or domain registrar where the minimum standard for hosted content is anything that's legal, then you should be able to. Beyond that, you aren't entitled to shit.
"But it's too expensive to create your own data center!" is not a valid excuse.
foggy fern
If everyone refused peering agreements with you then you'd have an argument, can't build your own internet
I don't know exactly how much it would cost but you could start from zero and get to an independent "data center" (it'd be a closet somewhere at this stage) with more than one peering agreement and your own AS number and such for less than 6 figures
cosmic badge
Yeah exactly. As long as you can get a couple peering agreements, you have no room to argue in a free market.
weary obsidian
even 1 peering, then everything can ride that
just hope it doesnt hiccup
just make sure its an independent company and not "I'm Parler AS, peer with me"
im sure trump can teach them the fine dealings of shell companies and stuff to hide the true purpose
cosmic badge
Tired of the "we're being censored from the internet!" argument lol
Build your own data center and make your own registrar.
weary obsidian
has trump said anything through WH channels since?
i meant like a public press statement
foggy fern
He doesn't know how to use those 😛
weary obsidian
but if a company is formed to be a new web hosting company with its own AS who chooses to do business with parler, i doubt people will go as far as de-peer anyone who chooses to host parler
thts a bit extreme
foggy fern
Sean Spicer knew how to do it but stopped because people kept asking him questions he didn't have answers for and none of his replacements have even attempted to do their job
No, cloudflare, opendns, and etc might block you as a potentially malicious site or something but that's another story
And people have to go out of their way to use those
cosmic badge
Cogent, Level3 and other peers are also private entities, so I'm still wondering... they don't want the negative PR either. Might have to make your own peer 😛
foggy fern
Cogent, Level3 and other peers are also private entities, so I'm still wondering...
That would mean your own internet
But if you ever get to the point where none of those guys are willing to peer with you then you should probably reevaluate your life
cosmic badge
Are internet peers subsidized by government? If not, there should at least be a government-owned peer.
foggy fern
DARPA intentionally got as hands off as possible in like 1992
cosmic badge
Or at the very least, since internet infrastructure has been subsidized by the government, peers should be required to do some extent do business with you.
foggy fern
You're talking about last mile infrastructure, end user ISPs
Completely different thing, although you can peer directly with Comcast
Well, you can't, but it is a thing
(parler wouldn't be big enough to either)
cosmic badge
But yeah, at the lowest level, access to the Internet should be considered an unrestricted public service.
foggy fern
I think at least the last mile infrastructure should be government run
Maybe not at a national level but with national standards and then maintained by your city along with your roads and such
cosmic badge
Beyond that, free market rules should apply. No room to complain about censorship.
foggy fern
If last mile infrastructure was government run and open to all then you'd have to build your own backhaul to connect to all those cities if no one was willing to peer with you
cosmic badge
Better have a lot of capital 😄
As long as peers weren't actively engaging in coordinated anti-competitive behavior, I don't see a problem with that.
foggy fern
At least there are only at most 8 zeros in that bill, if you had to build your own internet you'd need to add a few more
cosmic badge
Has there been instances where peers have refused to do business with data centers, though? Curious
At least the major ones.
Yeah so the most you'd have to invest in terms of internet infrastructure is building out your own data center, which still isn't cheap but you still have options.
foggy fern
And "data center" is a really loose term
cosmic badge
With all the billionaire funding the right-wing has, I'm surprised some such DC doesn't already exist lol
foggy fern
You can have a locked closet with an exhaust fan and a fiber hookup 😛
Or, you know, go rent a rack at a colo data center
If you get your own AS number and peering arrangements they're insulated enough but you probably don't even need that much
cosmic badge
Yeah, true. Most colo data centers probably won't care in that instance
foggy fern
I know this was talked about earlier but https://cybernews.com/news/70tb-of-parler-users-messages-videos-and-posts-leaked-by-security-researchers/
weary obsidian
im sure the fbi would love a copy
near glen
It's going up on archive.org, at least that was the plan
cosmic badge
Imagine uploading a photo of your ID/driver's license for verification of registration on a social media network lol
foggy fern
I see we're doing the Milo thing, I wonder what Trump thinks about it: https://www.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump
weary obsidian
"with the help of technologist" yeah get those blue collar workers to build you cowboy twitter
cosmic badge
At best he'd just be building an echo chamber lol
weary obsidian
all those technologist that are skilled in this stuff is the ones shutting your ass down
Cant say I know many trump supporting SE's
mystic ermine
if he actually creates his own platform, I just just feel a huge massive slow clap moment
weary obsidian
well not sure how his platform would be any diff than parler or gab, and look how its going for them lol
foggy fern
Oh hey Arnold Schwarzenegger taught Fox News a new word, now they're calling the shutdown of Parler Kristallnacht
near glen
Kek
cosmic badge
Hahaha
near glen
Did they actually google that?
weary obsidian
i loved arnolds video
cosmic badge
Schwarzenegger described it in his speech
weary obsidian
was great hearing someone like him, and a republican, to say those words
cosmic badge
It was actually a really good speech, yeah
near glen
Nowadays that day is called "Reichspogromnacht"
mystic ermine
I mean, I'd imagine that there is a company out there somewhere happy to host such a service
weary obsidian
well they can def go to whoever hosts 4chan lol
foggy fern
Go with whatever host keeps Daily Stormer and 8kun around (it's the same host)
near glen
I mean, I'd imagine that there is a company out there somewhere happy to host su...
Modern black hosts are under really bad pressure tho, cause of all the money laundering and drug trafficking police has been giving them a hard time
cosmic badge
Without Cloudflare, they'd still need some way to deal with DDoS attacks lol
near glen
Not sure they want this kind of publicity
foggy fern
near glen
What happens if you launch a ddos attack inside of tor?
cosmic badge
Although Cloudflare is very pro-free speech so they might actually continue to allow something like Parler
near glen
Would that threaten tor itself?
foggy fern
Cloudflare already booted Daily Stormer
cosmic badge
Yeah but Daily Stormer is a lot worse than Parler I think
Parler tends towards allowing all speech as long as it's legal, and I think Cloudflare would generally be okay with that as long as it's somewhat moderated.
mystic ermine
To my understanding, parler was not as bad as it was slated in the media, but their lax moderation in terms of stuff was defo a concern
foggy fern
Parler allows all speech period because they have no moderation
cosmic badge
lol
foggy fern
They claim there are rules and things are against them but make no effort to remove them
mystic ermine
Gab from my understanding was a one scroll wheel click from some jewish conspiracy theory
weary obsidian
To my understanding, parler was not as bad as it was slated in the media, but th...
you've not seen much of parler then
foggy fern
It's actually harder to find someone talking about The Jewish Question on Gab since all the Parler people flooded it
cosmic badge
I wonder what the game plan is for Matze (Parler CEO) ... he could've had something good if he didn't resist the idea of moderation so strongly.
foggy fern
Instead they're talking about qanon and baby eaters
cosmic badge
He could've cashed in
mystic ermine
Did you register to parler or you just going off images which you've been shown?
it's pretty clear to me at this point is that many media companies on both sides are interested in spewing the worst claiming it's the majority rather than a small %
weary obsidian
https://www.reddit.com/r/ParlerWatch/ theres some pretty deep hatred shown in this subreddit very often
mystic ermine
A reddit where people look for the worse of the worse
near glen
Well, but it's there
That's the thing
Even if it's the worst of the worst, it's readable and accessible and spread there
cosmic badge
Even Lin Wood has said some crazy shit on Parler IIRC
near glen
foggy fern
Lin Wood is one of the worst ones on there
near glen
Look at that vid 😂
cosmic badge
If high profile figures like that feel emboldened on the platform, imagine the other shit that goes on in there
weary obsidian
A reddit where people look for the worse of the worse
the point is that they allow this extremism to exist.
near glen
They not only allow it to exist, they give it a platform to spread
We really just need to hold platforms accountable for their content they distribute
mystic ermine
There defo needs to be better moderation on these platforms, but, best I can see is that people took a middle lane questionable social app and killed it, making dozens of people who already feel threatened on populist social media to have the actual "taking our platform down" to the face, thus leading to the likelyhood that some even deeper unground platform would be established
cosmic badge
Also at the end of the day, the general public's perception of Parler is what it is and from a business perspective, deplatforming Parler is the only sane decision.
Free market doing what it does.
foggy fern
If people were finding random posts by nobody accounts that'd be one thing but they're finding repeated garbage from high profile accounts
mystic ermine
To me, seems like somebody poured gasoline on an open flame, and I really can't see this being the end
cosmic badge
Yeah, exactly. You're finding extremist shit on high profile accounts.
Milo and Lin Wood are good examples and I think even some congresspeople.
foggy fern
Nah, this is more like feeding more oxygen to the flame. Makes it hotter now but burns it out faster
Unless they all move to gab and become like its regulars, then it could be worse (solution: kill gab)
Otherwise this dramatically slows or stops the radicalization of new members
People adapt to their environment, if everyone around them does or says certain things they will too, they want to fit in. The trick is to do it gradually as a sudden shock will drive them away instead.
cosmic badge
The Parlor app has been around for 10 years apparently, so it's not like they intended to take advantage of the situation.
weary obsidian
says its porn-y lol
foggy fern
If you remove the community of concentrated crazy people will drift to other communities and become more moderate
There is research on this but I don't want to look it up 😛
cosmic badge
Facebook and Twitter have also been very tolerant of all opinions. As much as I dislike them as monolithic social networks, they've allowed controversial opinions to thrive.
Facebook in particular should've done a much better job at silencing extremism.
Oh wow. The Parler CEO is apparently a Libertarian. So him crying about this whole situation is extremely ironic.
To Libertarians, an unregulated free market is essentially their religion.
foggy fern
https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/ktruz1/methinks_if_youve_defended_...
According to that the only moderation Parler did have was banning people who didn't have their head up Trump's ass
I got an immediate permaban for commenting “Trump’s refusal to even entertain the interests of the Republican caucus is deeply concerning and evidence of a cult of personality in lieu of a coherent political platform”
I got banned for commenting on a post asking what the difference was between AOCs sit in, and the Mob on Thursday. I said “Yeah, didn’t she kill a cop with a fire extinguisher”
cosmic badge
Yeah I've been seeing similar statements. Parler's only active moderation was dissenting opinions.
foggy fern
Oh, and no porn, apparently
cosmic badge
Doesn't sound very free speech to me!
foggy fern
Liberals bad, porn bad, sedition good
weary obsidian
cause jesus doesnt like boobies
cosmic badge
I hate that r/Libertarian is looking far more reasonable than r/Conservative right now.
foggy fern
Libertarians are generally either batshit or immature but at least they're generally consistent too
cosmic badge
Yeah, it just goes to show how crazy conservatives have become.
cosmic badge
The conservative movement is being hijacked here, I do feel sorry for real conservatives.
near glen
No, not his golf!
weary obsidian
the sad part is, it use to be right and alt right to distinguish the crazies, but trump has pushed the right to be scared to be "just right" and not "alt right". any form of not agreeing with trump is a sign of weakness and traitorism to them.
weary obsidian
so its hard to know how many are even really not that far crazy, because they have to pretend to be crazy
near glen
He spend 300 days or smth insane of his presidency on a golf course
mystic ermine
I mean, as somebody who supports trump to some degree, there are very few places where I feel able to say that, even in this channel sometimes it turns into total trump bad, anybody who agrees with anything he says is literally the worse
restive seal
The conservative movement is being hijacked here, I do feel sorry for real conse...
Is it really being hijacked, though? It sure feels like most conservatives are still riding the Trump Train.
near glen
But hey, the free market is better at holding trump accountable than law enforcement 😂
cosmic badge
I'm not too sure tbh, I feel like "most" conservatives are more anti-Democrat than they are pro-Trump.
restive seal
I mean, as somebody who supports trump to some degree, there are very few places...
It's a smaller scale version of the reaction to that congressperson who said "Hitler was right on one thing". One can make political arguments without invoking a bad person who happened to have, among a pile of bad views, an okay thought every now and then, and when invoking that bad person's name it's going to cause strong reactions that only distract from the point one is trying to make.
mystic ermine
am not really sure wtf they expected would happen :L
near glen
Idk, overruling a democratic election and implanting a dictatorship or smth
cosmic badge
To be clear, the election wasn't democratic 🙂
But it was a fair election as far as our constitution is concerned.
weary obsidian
these no fly lists videos are pretty damn humorous
near glen
Just wait what's gonna happen when fbi went thru the photo id of parler and connected them to the videos of the capitol attack
brisk cradle
@cosmic badge Parler censors anyone to the left of Tucker Carlson. Their commitment to free speech is practically nil.
faint radish
More people are coming out against trumps permaban from social media.
Merkel said it’s “problematic”
Some EU people as well.
near glen
It def is
Not the ban itself, that's justified
The fact that the platforms make the rules and enforcement without govement regulation is problematic
faint radish
The right to freedom of opinion is of fundamental importance,
Given that, the chancellor considers it problematic that the president's accounts have been permanently suspended.
I think she is talking about the ban. Not the regulation.
glossy sandal
Only problematic because he's sitting president
faint radish
Seibert said that, while Twitter was right to flag Trump's inaccurate tweets about the election, banning his account altogether was a step too far.
Yeah, her spokesman is clearly talking about the ban being problematic, not that there is no oversight.
near glen
Don't forget that they are conservative too
faint radish
I don’t think Merkel is a big trump fan...
cosmic badge
Politicians are disconnected from how the Internet works and how its infrastructure is setup. They mistakenly believe that these big tech companies involved in deplatforming Parler are the gatekeepers to the Internet itself.
So I can't say I'd appeal to their authority here.
As far as they're concerned, Google, Amazon, Facebook, Twitter etc are "The Internet"
restive seal
Ten movies streaming across that, that Internet, and what happens to your own personal Internet? I just the other day got... an Internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday. I got it yesterday [Tuesday]. Why? Because it got tangled up with all these things going on the Internet commercially. [...] They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the Internet. And again, the Internet is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.
foggy fern
That's surprisingly accurate
restive seal
Used to argue against net neutrality 😦
cosmic badge
I'd also challenge the credibility of the claim that "most people are coming out against Trump's ban from social media"
faint radish
I said more people.
cosmic badge
Ah, right. Misread that. My bad lol
Was thinking, if it was most, he wouldn't have gotten banned in the first place lol
They are very vocal about it, that's for sure.
faint radish
$TWTR is taking a smack in the market today, but like the entire market is down today, just Twitter more than most.
cosmic badge
Sometimes as a business you're faced with a situation where you lose no matter what. It's just a matter of minimizing your losses.
I think that's what we're seeing with the decisions to ban Trump.
After the Capitol Hill riot and subsequent handling, Twitter was faced with a pretty tough business decision.
restive seal
$TWTR is taking a smack in the market today, but like the entire market is down ...
I doubt that's from opinion so much as anticipating fewer people will visit the platform now.
Think of how many people basically just visited trump's tweets
cosmic badge
That's exactly my thought too. Trump is an extremely controversial figure. He attracts a lot of attention to the platform.
Twitter would rather be in a situation where Trump isn't banned and most of its users were okay with that.
A great many users were already calling for Trump's ban long before the riot, he's said things in the past that were in clear violation of their policy.
near glen
Twitter said before that the account violated their policies and they only kept it up cause public interest
What made them pull the trigger is the incitement of violence, in this dangerous situation
foggy fern
Twitter
They discovered the API numbered things sequentially and never deleted anything so they downloaded everything that had ever been published on parler, no hacking needed
The hacking thing did seem confusing to me but dumber things have happened
The generating massive numbers of accounts due to twillio yanking their account was real though, seems like they were using it to distribute their API requests across multiple users
opaque prairie
reading through her twitter was very helpful for figuring out what actually happened
elder portal
There's always an xkcd
This was.. a while ago
1357 and we're on 2800 or so
2409*
restive seal
April 18, 2014 @elder portal
elder portal
April 18, 2014 <@!303572546689826816>
I'm 90% sure at this point that Randall is a time traveler
foggy fern
opaque prairie
weary obsidian
O.o
opaque prairie
yeah i have no idea where it came from. you cant find that url via any other links on state department site. but like, it is still the .gov site
opaque prairie
i love that
shut vine
If they're found they'll go to prison for a long time, yikes.
opaque prairie
is this not like the 3 or 4th time something like this has happened this administration?
shut vine
I don't know specifically of any other case of anyone breaking CFAA laws, but maybe?
shut vine
Only problematic because he's sitting president
Eh, the spokesman mentioned in discussing the Twitter ban that freedom of opinion is a fundamental right of elementary significance.
faint radish
https://xkcd.com/1357/
true, so long as its not a government funded institution doing the cancelling (like a state university for example)
shut vine
I think she is talking about the ban. Not the regulation.
She talked about both, Siebert was relaying both that the ban was problematic, and that it shouldn't be these platforms deciding what is inciting violence, it should be the Judicial system.
glossy sandal
Then why is it ok to ban anyone else
It's literally only cause he has political significance
shut vine
I don't know, ask her for her opinion.
I think it's a problem only from a philosophical standpoint.
Twitter could theoretically ban people because it doesn't like their skin color and not tell them that's the reason and get away with it under the law.
Private company, their rules. They can do what they damn well please.
glossy sandal
Yea cuz accounts agree to their terms of service at creation and as long as they push notifs on changes they can do what they want on it
shut vine
But my gut feeling from reading the comments from Merkel's spokesman, is it was a philosophical objection too.
faint radish
well I would hope the free market would take care of twitter if they started doing that. I certainly wouldn't give business to a company that discriminated based on skin color. And that is how its supposed to work.
shut vine
It's wrong philosophically to directly prevent someone from expressing their opinion just because it's unpopular etc.
If there are laws against inciting violence, the legal system should decide what is / what isn't inciting it.
faint radish
yeah, I think that's where I fall on the whole twitter banning trump thing. they can do whatever they like, but I think it was a bad decision for that reason.
shut vine
Well, from a legal standpoint if they advertised that they were doing that it'd be a problem too MM.
faint radish
well yeah, but I think people would pick up on it pretty fast
shut vine
So I'm talking cloak and dagger, banning people they don't "like".
faint radish
twitter needs one of those "no shirts, no service" banners, and you have to turn on your camera and verify you are wearing a shirt when you open the app.
would clean up the internet real quick
nobody wants to associate with that no-shirt-wearing crowd 😆 😛
shut vine
Yeah, I agree. I also think the fact it was coordinated is problematic from the aspect of the tech "overlords" are basically changing society by preventing certain kinds of thought (affecting what people can/can't talk about affects what current and future generations think about).
I would say the same thing if "left wing" ideologies were being removed in bulk in a coordinated fashion.
Also lol
restive seal
First they came for the white nationalists, I did not speak out, for I was not a white nationalist?
opaque prairie
i kinda feel like we just got a good showing of the tolerance paradox, so like on a philosophical level, it is probably wrong, but on a functional society level, well thats a bit tougher
weary obsidian
no ones deplatforming right ideologies, its trump specifically
tough cedar
weary obsidian
Twitter
sweet canyon
Ahh you talking about how the gov website said trump's presidency ended today?
shut vine
i kinda feel like we just got a good showing of the tolerance paradox, so like o...
The paradox of tolerance is a fallacy argument for censorship specifically, which Popper himself mentions explicitly. Realistically as Popper himself stated it's only when people answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols where he suggests we cannot tolerate.
In fact the paradox of tolerance can equally be applied to BLM/Antifa protests that involved violence (not suggesting all did or a majority). Those that did involve violence we have a duty to not tolerate.
Equally those in the recent protests who turned violent are in exactly the same position.
shy gulch
gab tried coming up but they're getting too much traffic
dusky raft
well amazon did just shutdown a social media site and people are now flocking to gab
shy gulch
surprised parler wasn't using oracle
elder portal
https://arcdigital.media/qanon-woke-up-the-real-deep-state-72bbfcb79488
Oh, yeah, these people absolutely just brought the full force of the government down on them
It'll take years in some cases, but they'll never live normal lives again
Treat each one as Snowden, basically. Probably a little higher on the list
It's possible that there's a couple leaders of this group that we'll never hear about again
faint radish
torn wadi
