But again, not sure if that was ever real or just 50s and 60s movies glamorizing
#politics
foggy fern
dusky raft
and here is fantasy land, a society like that is very difficult to exist, as people... and many animals... seek out the laziest way possible to get what they need
sure, some people would be totally motivated to do a lot of things
but then you have people who will sit and do little
shy gulch
I feel like people are inherently greedy, so if there was no money, how would you control the hoarding and un-neccissary taking of goods? Like if the cost of things doesn't stop someone from just buying up an entire grocery store, what would? (I know, extreme example, but it was the best I could come up with lol)
smoky hedge
You'd find that if people are able to actually make a living with a passion, they'll be motivated
In that case, what would be someone's motivation to buy an entire grocery store? Money leads to greed, I do not believe that humans are inherently greedy. An economic system that encourages greed leads to greed
shy gulch
hm
foggy fern
No one is passionate about fixing a sewer pipe
cosmic badge
I disagree that humans aren't inherently greedy.
I think there is a greed "constant" in all humans.
It varies from person to person.
If not for monetary gain, it will be something else.
dusky raft
the job needs to be done, and people cant just be working on art work when their sewers are being flooded with litteral shit
smoky hedge
If someone took all the food, everyone else will be suffering. Unless someone actively wants others to suffer, they wouldn't take all the food
shy gulch
No one is passionate about fixing a sewer pipe
that is why (imo) there should be a secondary market for "luxury" goods where you get tokens of some sort from doing "undesirable" work (such as in sewers).
foggy fern
They might be proud of their work because it's hard work and they get a lot for it but I doubt they're passionate about it
smoky hedge
In terms of stuff no one wants to do, could just divide it up like household chores
smoky hedge
It's a necessity for society to function
shy gulch
uh oh
dusky raft
oh wait, you are already following russia during the 1920s and 30s
foggy fern
These systems only work on a small scale
smoky hedge
Well, no - enforcement isn't really a thing that needs to happen there
shy gulch
then you need to enforce it
or if everyone was informed about their place in society and how them working would contribute to it, everything would go smoothly.
foggy fern
You can run a village that way but not a town, city, or country
Larger groups are too impersonal
smoky hedge
Yeah, ideally society would be structured around smaller centres
foggy fern
You don't see who you're hurting
smoky hedge
Sprawling cities and suburbs are already a horrible idea
I'd probably estimate the size of a suburb would be a good size of a commune
dusky raft
and you are going to start seeing inefficiencies within communes, people want to move and do their own thing, and without enforcement, they can do just that
shy gulch
and you are going to start seeing inefficiencies within communes, people want to...
hmmm
smoky hedge
The idea is that communes all work together
They aren't entirely separate entities
But they're small local governances
foggy fern
They're an extended family
dusky raft
if you give people what they need to survive, no matter what they do, they will start to perform worse and worse since there is no incentive to actually improve in a commune. The only way to raise productivity is to add in some struggle, or something that would spur survival instincts
foggy fern
Which is also about the biggest you can make them before they fall over
smoky hedge
There are different theories for how they could work - but one idea is that each commune is heavily industry focused. Eg, one may be a farming commune.
Of course all communes need common jobs like doctors, etc - but a majority of people would live there for an industry purpose
dusky raft
and again, many countries have been down this road, planned, and failed
because there is no such thing as just enough to motivate besides brute force
foggy fern
This is how all countries worked outside of cities before industrialism 😛
dusky raft
because survival? and the next tribe a few miles down want your women.
weary obsidian
dusky raft
not being sexist, but that was a big thing when it comes to tribes, villages, and small coastal towns
shy gulch
not being sexist, but that was a big thing when it comes to tribes, villages, an...
ik, I just thought it was funny
smoky hedge
If a single commune suddenly starts an uprising, they have every other commune against them
shy gulch
https://www.reddit.com/r/NewDealAmerica/comments/kmgzfa/mitch_mcconnells_ass_is_...
Sanders is epic
weary obsidian
shy gulch
the bernie we need
weary obsidian
Bernie is the hero we deserved
shy gulch
yess
dusky raft
not really, if your saying communes as in no higher form of government, they can stay out of the fight or join sides
this has happened throughout
smoky hedge
But in your example, one commune is trying to steal something from another
dusky raft
certain communes can see that as getting an advantage and willing to help
or a fight over a bucket...
which has happened
smoky hedge
But if it's an actual need, they can get it from the other commune
shy gulch
yea
dusky raft
got an example to back it up?
smoky hedge
In terms of no higher form of governance - there'd still be somewhat of a central meeting space of neighbouring communes to discuss stuff
Probably with a few people of each commune on roster etc
Disputes could be resolved there
smoky hedge
Well I mean, ideally the entire world would be like that
But in the case there was a large invading force - then fight them off?
A large invading force would be unrealistic though, as there's little incentive
dusky raft
okay, before I continue here, what context am I looking at? we doing a complete memory wipe of people and in hopes they wont commit acts seen in history?
smoky hedge
Are you expecting people to think "Oh that hitler guy seemed cool, better re-enact the holocaust"?
Knowledge of history does not mean people are gonna re-create it
shy gulch
Knowledge of history does not mean people are gonna re-create it
it means quite the opposite! Knowing of past mistakes helps us grow as a society.
smoky hedge
And that exact same logic applies anywhere, are you saying that because people are aware of past attrocities, that they're likely to happen?
Like even in our current society?
dusky raft
hitler wasnt brought in so he can kill people at his own pace. Sure, he blamed communities, blamed the allies for leaving germany in such a sorry state, and used emotions to raise hell.
Hes a lot more complicated than he wanted to dominate the world and kill jews and other "subhumans" as he referred to them as.
smoky hedge
The motivations of hitler doesn't matter, I was using it as an example
dusky raft
All it takes is a desperate group who wanted to see better days, provide them with some sense of being superior. And the quickest way was to take from vulnerable communities and wage war.
smoky hedge
Well sure, but what is making that group desperate? That's a solvable problem
And a single group waging war on the larger group isn't going to achieve much
dusky raft
depends, if a larger group is not suspecting anything, they can take a harder hit
nevermind allies and other personal motives, maybe friends or something
smoky hedge
By larger group I'm referring to "the other communes"
dusky raft
they are decentralized and nothing is binding them
sure, agreement on paper, and thats been put to the fire many times
shy gulch
agreement on paper
haha, get it "paper", lol
smoky hedge
There's equally as much binding them to help out than there is binding you not to rob a bank
dusky raft
and what do you do when one group rebels, punish them?
smoky hedge
It's a societal construct and expectation
Depends
Most of the people are likely just following along, others are just unhappy and their needs can be addressed
dusky raft
there is 0 expectation when there is no external forces forcing them to get along
smoky hedge
There is though, every other commune
For that to happen, every single commune would have to simultaneously give up their societal expectation to help each other out
Society is very much a construct, and people like sticking to it
If the structure of society is this, it'd be seen as a major thing to go against it
dusky raft
your still ignoring the fact on personal feelings, which also starts wars and conflicts. morals be damned as we have seen in the past
defeat creates grudges
smoky hedge
Generally wars are started over the personal feelings of the ruler of a region, though
But sure - literally every society can have wars theoretically
smoky hedge
If somehow an entire commune wanted to go to war with the others, and amassed supporters, sure - they're now at war
dusky raft
your saying as if a commune doesnt have a leader
smoky hedge
Well yes, because they don't
shy gulch
I sure hope a commune doesn't have leaders lol
dusky raft
and who enforces work?
shy gulch
the people...
they figure it out and organize it amongst themselves.
no need for a leader
smoky hedge
If one person stopped working, everyone else would have an issue with it and work out why they've stopped, so they can start again
shy gulch
^
smoky hedge
If someone stops working, it's for a reason
Under our current society it's just chalked up to laziness, but it's often caused by something - be it mental illness, physiological illness, etc
dusky raft
such as system hasnt existed for long, and its for a damn good reason, a lack of leadership would divide a commune. factions would then start emerging.
and this would lead up to a simple democracy vote
smoky hedge
Yes, and that reason is called global imperialism
dusky raft
wut?
smoky hedge
Global powers, such as the US, have prevented any non-capitalistic government from succeeding
Be it through trade restrictions or coups
dusky raft
I dont know where to start, and where to end on that, but yes, the US did topple countries over mundane and utterly pointless shit, but, socialist/communist nations?
smoky hedge
yes?
It's like very well documented lol
The US even staged a coup on the Australian Labor Party around the 50s because it was becoming too socialist lol
Actually it was 1975, but exact time doesn't really matter
1953 - US stages a coup against Iran after oil was nationalised - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/cia-admits-role-1953-iranian-coup
1954 - US stages a coup against Guatemala after the increasingly socialist government would pose a threat to profits of US companies operating out of Guatemala - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-48638209
1964 - US stages a coup in Brazil to prevent increasing communist affiliations of the government - https://www.nytimes.com/1976/12/30/archives/us-assembled-a-force-in-1964-for-possible-use-in-brazil-coup.html
dusky raft
those I do know
and those are to prevent a communist takeover, or so they say
the governments were on the road to socialism/communism
smoky hedge
Well yes
The US can't topple an already socialist nation when they prevent them from even starting
I can provide you more examples if you want, those are just the first 3 I could find easy links about
dusky raft
though, a lot of those nations were rather poor and their governments were already corrupt
We will never know the full realization on what those governments would be like if the US stayed out
if they will be friends or pull a russia v. china situation
my bet is russia v. china like
smoky hedge
To be fair Russia's biggest failure was an early political one
dusky raft
russia did an extreme transition to communism, by force
but, it implemented all the ideas of what marx had in mind but the removal of government
smoky hedge
Well, they tried to
dusky raft
and I still consider marx to be horrible in ideals...
both in what he represents and who he was
and yes
I understand the whole "right wing makes him seem a lot worse"
smoky hedge
I mean, I don’t judge an ideology based on the actions of a person who spoke about it
Like I don’t change my opinion of Nazism because hitler was a vegetarian
dusky raft
He was an upper middle class person who had all the benefits of society and instead of actually improving the working class while he was living, just wrote and read books
foggy fern
Viewing socialism as a stepping stone to communism is outdated
smoky hedge
Marx was trying to spread the word of communism, along with Engels
foggy fern
Democratic socialism isn't meant to be a temporary thing until we can get communism going, it's meant to be a way of balancing things out so Stalinism isn't a thing
dusky raft
didnt engels own a factory?
smoky hedge
A printing press, yes
dusky raft
yeah, owned a business, sold it off, lived off of that till his death
not pointing that as against him, but thats what I found
I wish I can continue, I do like a good debate every once in awhile, but it is stupidly late, pushed myself further than I expected.
foggy fern
Israel has 270 communes which provide 9% of its industrial output and 40% of its agricultural output
foggy fern
shut vine
Section 230 it literally a double edged sword, there are no easy answers in either direction
I don't think complete removal of it is smart, also don't think government should get too involved in the goings on in business. They should be within their rights to do pretty much as they please other than something illegal (hire who they want, fire who they want, give or refuse service to whomever they want).
However it's not very equal to say news firms don't get the same protection in similar circumstances. i.e. when a site editorializes something (i.e. edits it, marks it as fact/not fact) they should fall under the same laws as the person who posted the original content. For example I post something that is literally libel on their platform, and they claim it is true, they should not receive section 230 protections in that instance.
That being said, it should equally fall at the feet of the person who the libel is against to chase them down in court, the legal system should just not protect them by giving them indemnity.
That being said, I don't have all the answers, and there are probably flaws in my idea.
near glen
All new years addresses to the nation merkel ever held
Crazy to think that this one will be the last
(last one is a random zoom meeting in case that wasn't obvious)
sand shale
@near glen she stepping down?
arctic tangle
isn't she continuing on in an EU position?
smoky hedge
Wait, she’s been in 15 years? Wow
Australia can’t even keep a leader for a full term 😅
near glen
isn't she continuing on in an EU position?
no, shes getting the fuck out of politics and into retirement
I wish she would replace von der leyen, but I dont see that happening
merkel is just reeeeaaaly tired
of all the bullshit
foggy fern
Wow Senator Hawley goes from pushing for $2000 with Bernie Sanders before the budget got passed and Trump said anything to now saying he'll help House Republicans sow some chaos by contesting the electoral college results
weary obsidian
we are so fucked. there is no recovering from the brainwash trump has done to the right
we need some massive mind control technology to clean their brains
foggy fern
He is making the same shitty argument Texas did
PA changed their election rules at the executive level. Should they have been allowed to do so? Their own Supreme Court said yes. Did other states that you aren't complaining about do the same thing? Absolutely but Trump won those or had no chance of winning them so they don't count I guess.
shut vine
Maybe skip that step and go straight to the firing squad.
weary obsidian
how about we not suggest firing people for making mistakes
creates such a stressful job
plush crypt
firing squad usually means someone shooting someone else
in politics, even more so :')
weary obsidian
yes, the only thing i can figure out what james meant was to fire the employee who did it
shut vine
I was referencing use of mind control on dissenting opinions.
torn wadi
Reasons we still have 💩 internet AKOS.
https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/3/2017/EN/C-2017-6159-F1-EN-MAIN-PART-1.PDF
https://posili.me/i/2020-12-31_02-22-05.png
https://posili.me/i/2020-12-31_02-29-30.png
elder portal
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/30/politics/josh-hawley-force-votes-electoral-college-results/index.html
Looks like I'm a little late
foggy fern
So people are talking about alternative electors being sent for a bunch of states and that's how Pence could still change the election but those electors aren't valid unless the governor of the state they're from signed off on them
The Republican Party of Georgia can RP whatever bullshit they want but unless Brian Kemp signed off on it they aren't real
near glen
Wtf they still trying to fraud this?
foggy fern
Yeah, spreading some BS about 200,000 too many votes in PA now too
PA had 7 million votes cast and 9 million registered voters
The 200,000 thing comes from looking at the statewide total number of votes them pulling up the voter history from a state computer system and having it give 200,000 too few people marked as voting this year
Except the data in the system isn't complete yet, counties are still putting it in
near glen
context?
cosmic badge
It's from last year at a memorial service for US Rep. Elijah Cummings: https://www.businessinsider.com/elijah-cummings-pallbearer-mitch-mcconnell-handshake-snub-video-2019-10
Rankin's brother, Jerry, died last year of multiple myeloma after prolonged exposure to contaminated water while serving in the Marines at North Carolina's Camp Lejeune. The form of cancer is linked to the Marine base's three decades of water contamination. Rankin said his brother was denied the veterans healthcare he was entitled to.
"When I saw Mitch McConnell, all I saw was my brother's face," Rankin told The Post.```
dusky raft
this is kind of why I dont trust the federal government when it comes to healthcare, or at least be the only provider/payer
restive seal
this is kind of why I dont trust the federal government when it comes to healthc...
Can you clarify how private business doesn't regularly work to manipulate what information makes it out to the public?
dusky raft
I didnt say private business
if you want government health care, fine
but I want an option to bypass it
I dont think government is any better than the already stupidly regulated healthcare market that was somehow meant to make it cheaper for americans
considering they were the ones that are making the rules
weary obsidian
so McConnell says the 2k payments is socialism for the rich, when the rich wont even be getting those checks?
or is he really not wanting low income people to spend money at walmart as his reasoning
dusky raft
To be honest, I dont agree with 2k payments, however the government threw a wrench in everything to contain covid 19, and people are suffering as a result of just utter incompetence
mystic ermine
did the proposed dem bill cut back on the "pork", or did they just bump the payment up to 2k?
mystic ermine
dems apparently pushed one through for 2k payments, repubs said nope
I'm conflicted, like, am a brit, I'm just kinda into US politics coz some day I've love to live there for some fucked up reason
dusky raft
thats what I see the care packages as, a joke, the US tax payer is going to pay this far down the road
dusky raft
yes
mystic ermine
Well, yea, the issue is is how do you keep people "happy" now
You can't have lockdowns where people lose their jobs and basically can't even afford the roof over their head
dusky raft
with ever increasing rent
this is just breeding the ideas of socialism
the government needs to massively reduce its spending
it cant continue to support an ever increasing spending bill every year
tough cedar
did the proposed dem bill cut back on the "pork", or did they just bump the paym...
the pork bill passed already? that is what gave most people $600
the one for 2,000 is supposed to be standalone
it passed in the house, but mitch wants the 2 things that trump asked for to get the 2k
which was a repeal of section 230 and something else that I forgot
oh, a commission to study voter fraud and election integrity
dusky raft
im still mixed on voter fraud, there are some issues I do want to see ironed out in regards to the counting process, but thats more or less having to do on a state by state basis
considering the quick change of how the process was to be done in the last year or so
due to the emphasis on mail in voting
mystic ermine
dusky raft
wait, is that the onion masking as the independent?
mystic ermine
nop
foggy fern
Twitter
Apparently what he "hacked" in that demo was connecting to a media server on the TCL TV he was giving the demo on?
Or something, it's confusing
supple hollow
i never knew this channel existed tf xD
foggy fern
It could always be worse, I could live in the UK https://www.ft.com/content/d97c72c5-ed23-4c2b-bf1c-9cc10b21f007
The new dosing guidelines, approved by the UK’s joint committee on vaccination and immunisation and unveiled on Wednesday, allow the second dose of both the vaccine that Pfizer developed with BioNTech, and the newly approved Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, to be delivered as much as three months after the first.
They're not reserving capacity for second shots after 4 weeks so they can get as many people their first shot as possible
Pfizer warned them they have no idea what the efficacy would be in that scenario
dusky raft
I wonder why the fuck they decided to do that
it just doesnt make sense for them to go against what a pharma company has recommended
drifting arch
literally 5 different trump supporters in my family just ganged on me saying biden has reneged on the free college goal but...i cant find a credible source for this
where'd they get it?
foggy fern
Biden said free college would be a thing?
drifting arch
Make public colleges and universities tuition-free for all families with incomes below $125,000.
other expenses like books, place to stay, etc ofc
foggy fern
I don't see any of the right wing communities I infiltrate hang out in talking about this
foggy fern
Dude is being real vague on this claim of hacking into a polling location but what he has seems to match up to the claim that he was just connecting to a TCL TV
That's not great if that TV is being used to monitor the system but that wouldn't let you change votes, just change what the poll workers think is happening
weary obsidian
maybe they are referencing him saying he isnt gonna cancel 50k in student debt
foggy fern
Not that it really matters but the system he claims to have been able to connect to isn't made by Dominion either
He says he got in to poll pads, those are the machines used to verify registration to allow you to vote at a polling location
And are made by some other company
And they have to connect to the internet to download database updates although they aren't supposed to be connected while they're in use
But his description is still too vague to say if he really got in or not
dusky raft
I think the public education system needs a complete overhaul
loud flax
cosmic badge
Oh boy. I sure wish this said $2000.00 instead.
restive seal
Communism is whatever republicans or moderate democrats don't like.
near glen
As someone who has/had relatives who where affected by communism and fled over the German border, that's kinda offensive ngl
Ppl here risked their life fighting actual communism and founded a social democracy
restive seal
To these folks, communism and socialism are just two spellings of the same word and their meaning is "bad, evil thing" and they are a label you apply to progressives, to regulation, or to anything else you presently oppose.
dusky raft
I'd rather have a social democracy than socialism in general
because every socialist that spouts we need to be more like germany doesnt understand socialism
near glen
Socialism is an extreme. Capitalism is an extreme. You don't want 100% of neither
dusky raft
unregulated capitalism that sucks money from government is horrible
its what we have in the US
near glen
Germany leans more on the socialism side compared to the USA, but norway is a big step more in that direction for example
dusky raft
but they still allow private property
We need to stop the US federal government from just giving money to corporations, useless programs, and outside organizations/countries
I dont mind giving aid to people in need, but america should be first in line before tyrants in africa/asia
near glen
That's another direction on the political spectrum
Nationalist vs globalist (?)
Idk what the other side would be
But this is why the two party system of american sucks, it assumes there are only two sides, when there are so many more
dusky raft
Well there are small minor factions within each party, but otherwise they vote along party lines
dusky raft
We do, but the media suppress other views but republican/democrat, and even the presidential debates dont show off anyone but the big two parties
hell, even registering to vote in certain states, you only have the following options: democrat, republican, independent.
near glen
Your political system is broken
Since it's designed for two parties
The electoral college makes more parties unfeasible
dusky raft
actually it was never designed for two parties originally
its just early on, a two party system formed
near glen
The "the winner takes is all" way is actively harmful to fairly representing all opinions
dusky raft
I think it was somewhere the system was not meant to have any parties
near glen
Your system makes coalition impossible
foggy fern
I've wondered if this guy was a scammer or had mental issues, I think I got my answer
Now I kind of feel bad for the guy
“You're sitting with Lin Wood. Or has the second coming already started?" Wood is quoted as saying in the brief. "Maybe I'm already here. You want to take the risk that you might be wrong. And I might actually be Christ coming back for a second time in the form of an imperfect man, elevating Christ consciousness. That cause you to have a little bit of a chill?”
foggy fern
elder portal
To these folks, communism and socialism are just two spellings of the same word ...
truer words have seldom been spoken
honestly, I barely know what communism and socialism is
my only study of it of any kind was reading and watching Animal Farm in middle school
of them*
political science, history, etc were never part of my required curriculum or even the electives
and I switched schools via moving often enough that I somehow managed to miss years in which history was taught
though I have gotten into YT videos about history over the last few years
it can be incredibly entertaining when I'm not having names and exact dates shoved down my throat
but that's been my education
so hey
foggy fern
In the US you're lucky if you get enough lessons on how the American government works, forget about anything beyond that
And comparing political systems does require you to know something about how they work but in the end it's more of a philosophy class, I think
So that's going to be college level stuff
I wonder if they have classes like that, actually. I know "Comparative Religion" is a thing but what about "Comparative Government"? 😄
elder portal
I actually took comparative religion as my philosophy class requirement, so there's that
One of the best classes I'd ever taken
I didn't end up getting much out of high school, sadly
But I do have the pledge of allegiance memorized, still
So there's that
I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the united states of america
And to the republic, for which it stands
One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all
Every morning at 8:15
It wasn't all bad, just late middle to high school
I did learn how to read, write, count, etc so there's that
"there's that" really is just a "I feel like I was slightly fucked compared to today's education"
That said, if my comparative religion class wasn't so damned good I would never have graduated
mystic ermine
there's one state where the dems where pleading to overturn rejected ballots so that they'd win
"find enough votes" to me implies to try and find enough illegal votes to overturn it, which, god knows, theres so much sketch going on on both sides it's crazy
near glen
To me it implies election fraud
I don't see any sketch
There is no both sides here
There is a election result and a former president trying really hard to overturn that result by any means
mystic ermine
one state is impeding investigation of the voting machines last I knew
pretty much all of the rulings I've seen have basically been dismissed on "We don't wanna touch that"
There was a report which was silenced to some degree about the voting machines apparently intentionally miscounting results, not really looked into it further or if it was finally released, etc
foggy fern
It's a tough thing to even look in to because right-wing media is full of so much bullshit on this issue (they believe what Guiliani, Wood, and Powell say) while left-wing media is just mocking them and the more reputable ones mostly aren't even covering it outside of reporting the filing and outcome of court cases
The main way to find out what's happening is to find a journalist or security expert live tweeting their review and debunking of some claim
restive seal
Former president of the US trying force others to commit election fraud
Worse. Current sitting president. He's not "former" for another couple weeks.
near glen
Ppf, details
shut vine
I mean, both parties may engage in sketchy activities regarding elections, but that's not specifically what matters, it's what can be proven in court.
mystic ermine
The biggest thing is that much of the stuff I've seen has been excluded mostly around judges not wanting to touch stuff or make a ruling on it because they don't wanna fuck around with such a thing thing
Did the security report thing come out, as I recall it was supposed to come out but also got delayed due to some stuff
(apparently china was caught fucking around with stuff, no idea what's going on there, but the solar winds hack being picked up around the same time I think it was is very :S)
The thing that i see is that we have stuff people screaming has been debunked the day it comes out, e.g. the ballots under the table, no idea what the full story is there but whhhy the fuck are there ballot boxes under a table, and why did all the people supposed to be watching leaving the room...
Like, I'm personally pissed off at all of the news sources these days as it's pretty hard to get much info without getting fed up of hearing that somebody is bad just because they're on the other side, etc
shut vine
Security report regarding Dominion machines?
mystic ermine
No, some general security report always done after elections or something
shut vine
Ah didn't know that existed, don't think it came out
mystic ermine
I don't live in the US, so not 100% on specifics, but, it's a place I'd hope to live one day, so, I kinda tend to try to keep up to date on it
shut vine
There has been pretty much complete radio silence this year on attempts by foreign governments to interfere.
mystic ermine
There's so much crap in the steam pipes and the seeming fact that none of the concerns are really being addressed in a way which anybody of concern is happy with is, well, concerning
Like, most of what I see is people running around screaming debunked, even on day one
shut vine
My guess is in 2016 their internal polls said they had a very low chance of winning so had to grasp at straws (Russian interference).
But that's purely speculative.
mystic ermine
there was an email where apparently the russian interference was pushed on the sole measure of trying to defer from hillaries emails
think it was an email or something
shut vine
Russia engaged in a large campaign spanning both the Republicans and Democrats. The idea was destabilization of democracy like always.
mystic ermine
Yea, both parties have been found up to no good there
shut vine
The Steele dossier was Russian disinformation fed to the Democrats via a investigator at FusionGPS from known Russian assets.
mystic ermine
The issue is that there is so much shit going on now and both parties are about as close to having a war with one another as possible
I mean, both parties are having massive internal fights too
apparently as this is a census year, there is a chance that AOC is getting a boot
shut vine
The whole "DEBUNKED" thing irritates me too, regardless of if the interference or fraud is committed by the party you generally "side" with, you should want to get to the bottom of it as a citizen.
mystic ermine
but, many members are upset with AOC and blame here and her bunch of friends for causing them to lose a bunch of seats in some places
shut vine
Well, AOC already got the boot mostly, she's off all of the influential committee's now since she "didn't want to play the politics game" and hold her vote for Pelosi ransom to actually effecting change.
mystic ermine
AOC's politics only really seem to work well in sorta like, college heavy areas
pelosi needs to fuck off
She's clearly playing politics with things which impact peoples lives
She basically even admitted to such
There's apparently people already defecting against her, but, god knows what will happen on the day
shut vine
The Wolf Blitzer interview is so damning regarding that.
She cares more that Trump is not credited for a relief bill than actually helping people.
mystic ermine
Yea, that's how it came out to me too
We need to bring back catapults or something
I'm all for people playing games like that in politics to be ejected from the house
(by catapult)
shut vine
Oh, the other issue with AOC is she basically has not accomplished anything in her time in Congress.
Oh, the other issue with AOC is she basically has not really accomplished anything in her time in Congress. She's basically cosponsored bills.
mystic ermine
remember seeing something on that, most of what she's done has been cosponsored, some of it is just typical "round the mills" type stuff that happens all the time, as well as sorta like, "maybe we should look at X" type stuff of no real meaing
most of the stuff that she put forward on her own merit was generally shot down pretty early
shut vine
Yeah, and officially recognizing TV shows for their contributions to society etc.
mystic ermine
I think that's the issue with politics being so exposed to the world
Like, especially with 24/7 news, it puts politcal parties more at the front for point scoring than actually doing shit worth while
e.g. the $2000 stimulus checks
trump asked, cut the pork, increase the checks
afaik, pelosi just put forward increasing the cheques, so, that was clearly not gonna pass, but, now she gets to say that the repubs killed it
NYC has also called out antifa and stated that they're going to be taking steps to bring them down
thiiink it was NYC
shut vine
Yeah, McConnell put forward a counter proposal with the 2000 a day or so after she put hers in I think too.
Finally lol
mystic ermine
order being the federalisation or whatever it was
shut vine
Either way, not much NYC can do, people are leaving in droves.
mystic ermine
what pisses me off about that is people flooding to places like red states
shut vine
If they don't crack down on that sort of thing it's just going to get worse
mystic ermine
Like, many of them who are moving to red states heavily stood behind the policies which lead to them wanting to leave places like NYC
and then you've got LA, homeless central, where where literally preaching to the rest of the states "come over here, we're able to house you"
shut vine
Hopefully that will change their viewpoint a bit
mystic ermine
meanwhile, every project they have to get homeless people off the streets has been stalled with fucktons of money spent above-market to warehouses and such which are disused
shut vine
Yeah, LA has become a shithole
mystic ermine
Meanwhile, you've got stuff like the guy who was making small ass mini houses to provide some form of relief getting his shit confiscated
And you've also got people there wanting the state to do something about people living on the streets outside their businesses, etc
Like, coooome on
They've been throwing money at it for fuck knows how long
shut vine
JFC, half of this I didn't know, it just goes down hill fast
mystic ermine
They clearly do not give a single shit about fixing the issue as much as being able to throw cash around at it
Reason TV had a documentary on it, I think it was
One of the warehouses they rented for trying to get homeless people off the street was sorta like a friend of a friend off a politician and rented for like 2x or even higher than the going market rent
shut vine
Politician things, keep me and my friends rich
mystic ermine
meanwhile more people ran projects to get homeless people off the street are generally stonewalled or closed by politician orders, etc
This is part of why people are against government running stuff
because it severly neuters the competition which makes stuff cheaper and better by just making their own friends rich
There was another fun documentary I watched where some sorta like ran down area sorta like pulled themselves out of management by the state
privated all of their stuff, e.g. paying companies to maintain parks, clean the streets, etc
they save a meeetrrric fuckton of cash and the place looks a whooole lot nicer than when it was government ran
shut vine
Yeah small government USUALLY works better.
Way less waste, much more freedom for business to thrive, etc.
mystic ermine
The thing is that there's actual competition and it's not a company ran for a single thing
There's a reason for companies to invest cash sanely vs having things like the last minute "lets spend all our budget on stupid stuff"
shut vine
Yeah, because they subcontract it the government is smaller, and as you said, you can pick the company that does it well for the lowest price.
mystic ermine
apparently many sectors of government literally go crazy with spending weeks before the next budget is started due to the whole "use it or lose it" aspects
shut vine
Wouldn't surprise me
Can't plan for shit, so throw a little extra in the budget "just in case"
mystic ermine
I mean, I defo err more towards the side of a smaller government, not to say that government shouldn't intervene for the safety of the public, etc
shut vine
Yeah, of course
mystic ermine
Well, if they don't spend the cash, then they don't need that much cash next time around
shut vine
Yeah when the difference in budget and spend is large, people start assuming you wont use what you say you will.
If you don't plan for budget time you're going to get screwed, you need quotes for everything you plan to do that predate budget time so you can adequately show you were not under budget due to incompetency.
mystic ermine
the issue is that the system actively encourages such wasteful spending and there is no real action against it
People are shocked yearly that the government spends so much on X, Y, Z, yet everything they apparently maintain is running to shit
shut vine
I mean maybe government works differently, but my experience in corporate land they want you to justify under/over budget by a certain percentage.
If you can't they decide your budget for you based on your last forecast and actual.
mystic ermine
Well, under is coz they wanna argue for why the people paying them for X should pay that amount for X, and if you run over they wanna know why
in government there's no real accountability until you run dry
Like, many states are in such huge deficits and continue throwing more cash into stuff
Then you've got states talking about taxing people for 10 years after they leave
foggy fern
Turns out the "people fleeing for red states then voting for the policies that made them flee" thing isn't true, at least for Texas
This is from 2018 exit polling
People born in Texas were much more likely to vote for Beto than people who moved there
Also all the stories about people fleeing NYC or California are usually playing games with statistics. Those are the biggest population areas so they have the most people leaving but their overall population is still growing
And that kind of stuff is hard to extrapolate so you can't just look at a few years of population growth vs emigration and say "in 2028 these lines will cross and population will start to rapidly decline" https://xkcd.com/605
mystic ermine
hm, be interesting to see what happens, seems hard to get straight facts about stuff these days
foggy fern
If people weren't invading Texas and bringing their unwanted politics with them Beto would be a Senator right now 😄
restive seal
unwanted politics
Now that's just not true! Clearly some folks want it. The word you're looking for here is regressive 😄
foggy fern
TIL AOC's grandfather was in a nursing home in Puerto Rico and died during the aftermath of Hurricane Maria in 2017
shut vine
Yeah there is a high chance people who move are either moving to a state that shares their political views (hurrah for Constitutional Republic), or they're changing when they move.
foggy fern
Except it doesn't actually share their political views except due to all the other people also moving there because they think that
At least not on that vote anyway
shut vine
That vote was won by a Republican.
foggy fern
Due to all the people moving there and voting Republican
The state's native population moved left but due to their image as a right wing stronghold they get a bunch of people moving in who have those beliefs and make it true
shut vine
He has kept his seat there for like 8 years.
foggy fern
So he won 2 elections
mystic ermine
last I knew, texas was pretty divided
Like, most of the left people are more sorta geograpically defined vs being a sorta like state-wide thing or something
foggy fern
No Democrat has won a statewide election in Texas since 1994
mystic ermine
but there is a blue faction which has been slowly growing in texas afaik
foggy fern
Dunno about state precincts
mystic ermine
The state as a whole is red, but, some precincts are sorta more leaning towards the blue
shut vine
I would have thought Krueger was, in 93
mystic ermine
At least afaik
foggy fern
But based on that exit polling data if only native Texans voted they would have voted for a Democrat
shut vine
Yeah, and the polls have been super reliable lately 😉
foggy fern
2016 was way more accurate than people who don't understand polling think it was
2020 was pretty far off on some races but you can blame COVID for that
2018 I think they got pretty right
shut vine
If you break it down to state polls, 2016 was wrong by nearly 8% in several states.
mystic ermine
last I knew, exit polling in 2016 was sorta like a flippant between it was more accurate than it'd look on the outside, but, on the inside, there was defo massive concerns in some states on it
Depends on which side you're looking from, really
shut vine
8% is well above the margin for error in polls conducted of that size.
foggy fern
afaik the average of polls was only outside the margin of error in one state in 2016, at least for president
foggy fern
That one state is one that some fringe pollster happened to call the right way although he was way outside the margin of error on that and every other state that flipped and he got "right"
Then I got to listen to years of people saying we should only listen to him
That mostly died after 2018 when the blue wave actually did happen but it came back in 2020
shut vine
Also unless you look at Rasmussen, which basically called the popular vote and the result
By result I mean each state
foggy fern
Rasmussen is normally the most wrong of the polls that are considered acceptable to people who rate pollsters
But Rasmussen himself doesn't actually have anything to do with it anymore
foggy fern
Like, after their performance in 2016 and 2020 some sites that were doing averages of polls stopped including Rasmussen as they were considered too junk to try to compensate for
shut vine
I do prefer the method they use for polling, giving more weight to likely voters.
foggy fern
They aren't the only one that does likely voters
shut vine
Pretty much every other poll is based on registered voters.
foggy fern
Some do both, some only do one of the two
Rasmussen just has different weightings for how likely different demographics actually are
Usually their weightings result in it looking like anyone left of Joe Manchin will stay home
shut vine
My recollection is their polls actually ask the individual about their voting history, how likely they think they'll vote, etc.
Their weighting for demographics comes from the census bureau, anyone has access to that.
foggy fern
Not the weighting for the demographics, the way they combine the demographic weighting with the likely voting weighting
They tend to result in a poll that matches the meme that left wing people are all hippies and college kids who are unreliable voters (which is to some extent true but usually not as much as Rasmussen thinks it is)
Rasmussen were also the ones that put out this https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1343193422996393987 (it's a thread)
shut vine
I mean, they've predicted most presidential races dating back to 2004 within 1 percentage point.
foggy fern
They were within their margin of error for 2020, I think. They called it a 1% win for Biden but it was actually a 4.4% win
shut vine
In fact I can't see one that doesn't match that criteria
foggy fern
So no, they didn't even get 2020 as good as you just said
foggy fern
Rasmussen said Romney would win by 1% but Obama won by 3%
They got 2008 pretty much spot on
An analysis by Costas Panagopolous in 2009 ranked 23 survey research organizations on the accuracy of their final, national pre-election polls based upon Obama's 7.2% margin of victory; the analysis determined that Rasmussen Reports was tied for 9th-most accurate. Democracy Corps, Fox News/Opinion Dynamic, CNN/Opinion Research, and Ipsos/McClatchy all predicted an accurate seven-point spread.
shut vine
Yeah that's one year it was clearly wrong. They got 2004, 2008, and 2016 bang on though
foggy fern
They got 2004, 2008, and 2016 but were fairly off on 2000, 2012, and 2020
2000 they were new and 2020 has covid so on presidential national popular vote at least they're not too bad
shut vine
They also did still predict the victory
foggy fern
In 2018, Rasmussen Reports predicted that Republicans would win the generic ballot by 1 percentage point while the actual election results had Democrats winning by nearly 9 percentage points. This error of nearly 10 percentage points was the largest polling error out of major firms who polled the national generic ballot.
Rasmussen pushed back against critics after their miss, claiming that "the midterm result was relatively poor for Democrats compared to other midterms" despite the Democrats having scored a historic margin in the popular vote.
shut vine
Wonder why it was so accurate there but is generally very accurate in generals.
foggy fern
According to Nate Silver's assessment of 2010 pollster accuracy, the 105 polls released in senatorial and gubernatorial races by Rasmussen/Pulse Opinion Research missed the final margin between the candidates by 5.8 points. Nate Silver described Rasmussen as "biased and inaccurate", saying Rasmussen "badly missed the margin in many states, and also exhibited a considerable bias toward Republican candidates."
So they're decent at predicting turnout for presidential races but seem awful at everything else
shut vine
Yeah, maybe the methodology is not very well suited for some reason
I'm more curious about why they were so accurate when others were not in 2016, and vice versa.
foggy fern
Apparently for their polling on policy positions they're known to ask leading questions to get as good of a result as they can for whatever the conservative position is
shut vine
Yeah, that could be the reason. It may be due to how they select the individuals too though.
Like most polling groups show bias, but the bias should generally not have a massive impact on the result.
foggy fern
538 tries to calculate the house effect and factor it out in their average of polls
shut vine
538?
foggy fern
Nate Silver
shut vine
Ah
foggy fern
tough cedar
isn't he?
shut vine
I don't know, I guess maybe? Just seems strange.
https://qz.com/1932176/why-the-polls-were-wrong-in-the-2020-election/
This mentions FiveThirtyEight
restive seal
I don't know, I guess maybe? Just seems strange.
Hillary Clinton had decades of right wing smear campaigns to build up people's dislike.
shut vine
Hillary Clinton had decades of right wing smear campaigns to build up people's d...
I meant if you look at the news cycle 2015 vs 2019, the news seemed to have a lot more positive to say about her in 2015 compared to Biden in 2019. That being said I can absolutely see why someone would dislike her based purely on her actions. Just didn't think it was a mainstream dislike.
tough cedar
cosmic badge
Hillary had been smeared for nearly 3 decades now, ever since she was First Lady. I can see her being less popular than Biden.
Biden was also pretty lucky that his crime bill was more associated with Bill Clinton than it was with him lol
shut vine
Hilary didn't really need a smear campaign to be disliked. She did enough damage to her reputation on her own. Also yeah Biden was incredibly lucky in that instance. Also I agree he's lucky in that instance, probably due to Clinton wanting to change directions to be hard on crime in the Democrat party, and this was part of it. Biden just drafted a large portion of it cooped with law enforcement.
As I said earlier just wasn't the impression I got from individuals and from the media itself.
foggy fern
The impression I always got of Biden was "meh"
I think that's true for most people, he just wasn't on their radar at all
I wonder if they pulled this story and tried to be quiet about it (too late) or if this is some technical issue https://www.11alive.com/article/news/politics/elections/trump-phone-call-brad-raffersperger-lawsuit/85-a0c1c287-b69f-470e-a8b6-d1cdf9df1b11
Trump apparently said he is going to sue Raffensperger for the call being leaked
Twitter
Chairman of the Georgia GOP so I guess he would be a good enough source
near glen
Ah yes, retaliation against whistle blowers, that's something trump learned from obama
near glen
Woo, the Brits did something good for once, assange will not be extradited
I mean
The judge still said he's not a journalist and not protected by freedom of journalism
Only reason he stays is health
Chances are, he will be bailed out now
shy gulch
true true
restive seal
I think the important question that's rarely asked when talking about twitter censorship is "what content are they posting that's getting them in trouble?"
near glen
I think you would have a hard time of denying a same sex marriage event at your venue here
Gotta find some excuse
Maybe you could argue but muh religion
But that's a argument you can only loose
Religion is not an excuse for discrimination
elder portal
I think the important question that's rarely asked when talking about twitter ce...
It's a good majority racism, bigotry, etc. Unfortunately a lot of far-right stuff is not good right now
At least the far-left stuff is progressive. Just maybe too much too quickly
elder portal
Defund the police comes to mind
restive seal
And that's getting... censored?
elder portal
Oh, no, I was just comparing far-left vs far-right
It might be, I don't actually know
Probably not
restive seal
Alright, I was puzzled by the comment seeming like a continuation of the previous line.
elder portal
Nope, slightly different train of thought, just related
weary obsidian
i really am annoyed that the right considers what twitter does as censorship. It's not. the message is still there clear as day for anyone to read and be brainwashed by. Minus that one snafu with the biden laptop story. That's like the only case ive heard of them deleting? It's not censorship to make it clear there is facts that counter the statement.
I also don't understand why the right associates 230 with this. Without 230, Twitter would have to censor more....
230 is what lets the right post this bullshit without a human reviewing it
take away 230 and make me responsible for content on my site, im going to deny your shit as i don't want to be responsible for your misinformation.
restive seal
If 230 was repealed and the right started seeing massive censorship, surely they'd react even angrier? I wonder if for the folks initially proposing protection removal it's a way to try to force a bigger conflict?
foggy fern
They think repealing 230 will turn twitter in to parler
Except now there will be people there who will see their stuff instead of shouting into the void
restive seal
Are you suggesting parler is the first big customer of https://devnull-as-a-service.com/
foggy fern
Twitter
mystic ermine
I think that the nature of repealing 230 is the protections that it provides companies as well as some bashing over if they're publishers or not
The biggest thing is that social media is s huuuge source of info for people, especially when many, and I know I am, fed up of visiting s new site and there being 99% clickbait articles
Repealing 230 afaik a "if you're gonna fuck me, I might as well get some action our of it" type thing
foggy fern
What does section 230 have to do with clickbait?
mystic ermine
Nothing
It's more a "I avoid traditional news sites because there all full of shit, so Twitter linking to stuff can sometimes be the first time I hear about stuff"
foggy fern
Twitter
England isn't welding your doors shut but they might as well be
You can only leave your house to buy food, see a doctor, or go for a jog around your neighborhood once a day
For the next month and a half
restive seal
Press conference going through all the allegations in Georgia.
Also, the sign language interpreter is amazing to watch.
And the maga commenters on the live chat replay are disturbing
small root
Dang my state just became a stand your ground state
foggy fern
oof, GPUs in the US all just got about $80 more expensive due to tariffs
weary obsidian
The biggest thing is that social media is s huuuge source of info for people, es...
see it seems you have a misunderstanding on 230 same as the right does. 230 has nothing to do with that.
230 says if a user posts child porn to Twitter/Discord/etc, that those platforms are not able to be held liable for it existing (long as they remove it once discovered)
If you remove 230, now platforms would have to put EVERY submission through review and deny posts from even being seen at all. Repealing 230 does absolutely nothing to help "censorship", it pushes for more censorship.
So the only thing Repealing 230 afaik a "if you're gonna fuck me, I might as well get some action our of it" type thing can mean is "I don't like your platform, so I'm gonna fuck up the entire ecosystem to punish you"
foggy fern
They would already be immune from people posting child porn is they didn't do any moderation
weary obsidian
230 is what gives them that immunity though
unless theres some other one providing it
foggy fern
Nope, 230 gives them immunity while still allowing them to do moderation
weary obsidian
what provides it w/o moderation?
foggy fern
Telecommunications Act of 19XX says platforms are exempt from illegal things that use them
Otherwise AT&T could have been sued for people saying mean things on a phone call
For a while every time Facebook or Twitter banned someone right wing social media would be complaining about Facebook needing to decide if they're a platform (so can't ban people) or a publisher (so are liable for things posted)
Then someone taught them about Section 230 (I think it was Devin Nunes suing his cow) and now they attack that instead
weary obsidian
who the fuck thought of the idea that platforms cant ban people?
foggy fern
The phone company
weary obsidian
no i mean right wing social media
phone companies can ban you if you break the rules?
cant they lol
foggy fern
Prior to the Internet, case law was clear that a liability line was drawn between publishers of content and distributors of content; publishers would be expected to have awareness of material it was publishing and thus should be held liable for any illegal content it published, while distributors would likely not be aware and thus would be immune.
weary obsidian
its just not much vector for breaking rules in phone
foggy fern
Section 230 was created because the fuckers from Wolf of Wall Street sued Prodigy over forum posts from a user talking about how they were scammers
weary obsidian
ISP's say you cant use their service for downloading illegal activities, running businesses on residential lines, you can get denied service for breaking those
foggy fern
The Stratton court held that Prodigy was liable as the publisher of the content created by its users because it exercised editorial control over the messages on their bulletin boards in three ways: 1) by posting Content Guidelines for users, 2) by enforcing those guidelines with "Board Leaders", and 3) by utilizing screening software designed to remove offensive language.
According to that the ISP even having those EULAs would make them liable without section 230 😛
And you'd be liable for everything I say in here since you post rules in #welcome
A previous case went the other way though:
The court held that although CompuServe did host defamatory content on its forums, CompuServe was merely a distributor, rather than a publisher, of the content. As a distributor, CompuServe could only be held liable for defamation if it knew, or had reason to know, of the defamatory nature of the content.
foggy fern
Before the internet and before section 230 a book store couldn't be expected to have read every book on their shelves so weren't liable for things those books said
And AT&T couldn't listen to every phone call
And that got applied to say CompuServe couldn't read every forum post
But then Prodigy lost and it looked like online discussion was about to die
But not because Prodigy was expected to read every post but because they had rules you were supposed to follow and enforced them when they discovered a violation
So they either had to be perfect or had to have no rules
That's why I say right wingers expect that without Section 230 Twitter will turn in to Parler
The only way to allow randoms to post is to allow everything
weary obsidian
wow, thats fucking extreme
that means you then have to allow spammers to spam your forums too
foggy fern
Yeah, pretty much. I'm not sure how it interacts with clearly illegal stuff like child porn or piracy. I think you might have to wait for some notification from a third party before you could remove that stuff
Otherwise you show you have the ability to filter messages based on content so bam, you're a publisher again and liable for things people say because you could have written a filter to block it
weary obsidian
or i guess just move servers out of america to another country
foggy fern
And block all US IP ranges
Otherwise the US will come for you anyway
This is why it's clear the people that want Section 230 removed don't really understand what they're asking for and just want to punish social media for banning them for saying racist shit
They think the result will be that they can say their bullshit again but more likely social media, forums, comment sections, etc all just die and Twitter turns in to a place for celebrities and brands to post PR updates
You can't run at Twitter or Facebook scale if all your advertisers run away because they don't want their ad running next to "The Jews did it" posts
weary obsidian
well thankfully we dont have to worry, trumps almost gone, hopefully house wouldnt be stupid enough to pass it
foggy fern
Eh, they've already put some restrictions on Section 230 under Trump, FOSTA-SESTA
And Democrats seem to like the EARN IT Act which goes further along those same lines but also requires backdoors in e2e encryption
And leaves it open for the Attorney General to add new requirements whenever they want
The EARN IT Act advanced out of the senate judiciary committee by a unanimous 22-0 vote on July 2, 2020, following an amendment by Lindsey Graham. Graham's amendment removed the legal authority of the proposed federal commission, instead giving a similar authority to each individual state state government. The bill was introduced into the House on October 2, 2020.
Guess that one died, dunno if the House just didn't get to it, if Pelosi killed it, or what
But it'll have to be passed again since we have a new Congress as of Sunday
foggy fern
tough cedar
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/05/us/elections/forecast-georgia-senate-runoff.html
In A.P. voter surveys, 56 percent of Georgia voters said they disapproved of Trump’s handling of the results of the presidential election.
brisk cradle
I’m calling it. John Ossoff and Raphael Warnock will win their Senate races, granting Democrats a Senate majority with Kamala Harris’s tie-breaking votes.
foggy fern
That said, the presidency has become more and more imperial over the last century as president after president has gone unpunished for the misdeeds of their time in office. Lyndon B. Johnson paid no price for the lies that led America into the Vietnam War, Richard Nixon got away with Watergate (and a host of other offenses), Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush skated on Iran-Contra, George W. Bush received no retribution for the lies that led to the Iraq War, Barack Obama got away with wearing a tan suit, and Donald Trump has compiled a rap sheet a mile long, from Ukraine Mobilier to obstruction of justice to emoluments violations.
shut vine
Yeah the problem with prosecuting previous presidents is they probably know so many damning state secrets that it almost makes it impossible.
elder portal
elder portal
I’m calling it. John Ossoff and Raphael Warnock will win their Senate races, gra...
It'll be the first time in a long time we've had an all-blue hat, I think
I may be mis-remembering but I can't actually remember the last time we had this much democrat
It's usually almost entirely red
Or at least purple
sweet canyon
This is for the Georgia stuff, right?
sweet canyon
I'm a little behind on what the whole gist is for what's going on today / yesterday for Georgia voting.
shut vine
It'll be the first time in a long time we've had an all-blue hat, I think
Obama was the last time.
elder portal
Obama was the last time.
Was that democratic house and senate as well? I honestly don't remember
I think senate was still republican
Oh, nope, democratic. 2009 was a supermajority
shut vine
Yeah full control for ACA
elder portal
Welp, thank fuck, we needed a little more blue for the time being
Purple later
Fix shit now
shut vine
I prefer purple, just because it prevents one party from having too much power. I did not like it was all red in the first half of Trumps either.
elder portal
Yeah, those were dark times
I'm putting my money on a democratic majority reversing course on some key policies made around that time, among others
Which I happen to agree with
But who knows, I guess
Notice that the most democratic states have the most preventative measures against gerrymandering and the most participation in voting, for example
shut vine
Have to wait and see.
elder portal
Need more of that
That's good, more plz
It's largely up to states, but that kind of thing has me hopeful about the direction of the party
shut vine
Well Congress/Senate/Exec don't have any control over that though.
elder portal
Nope, largely up to states
But that's the sort of thing that gives me hope in a particular party
shut vine
Federal doesn't really have as much impact on a citizens life as most people think in USA due to how the political system is. Basically each state is for the most part autonomous.
elder portal
Yep, it's largely up to states for that sort of thing
shut vine
Which is why the national guard while on offer from federal was not deployed in many states.
People in general should put most of their effort into state government and local government elections.
elder portal
But it's that kind of action that makes me look at a particular party and say, "awesome, we need more please"
I'm not sure how many other ways I can say that
shut vine
Federal government mostly should be elected based on who is good for foreign policy.
Yeah I understand.
elder portal
I'm hoping that those actions are an indication of the party as a whole and translate to the higher offices
shut vine
I am curious what will happen if it's all blue. I have a feeling with where things are currently it would not be a very desirable result but we'll see. It's not like it can lead to anything of major consequence.
elder portal
Reversing course on a lot of recent policies is all I really want
But if there's more good that can be done, great
shut vine
Any in particular?
Like most of the policies that people have complained about with Trump, that I agree with are usually Obama era ones.
elder portal
Well, actually recognizing covid is a serious issue for one
And hopefully a stimulus that actually matters and helps
The national housing crisis is a good start
Which was caused by covid
shut vine
Yeah makes sense.
small root
Holy fuck I just looked at the Georgia runoff, didn’t know that was today
elder portal
Obama actually set up a task force for exactly something like covid, which Trump immediately dismantled. Which was "hilarious"
So uh.. having that back
shut vine
That's false.
elder portal
Also having a white house full of people actually hired for their experience in the job they will have
That's awesome
shut vine
It was restructured, not dismantled.
small root
Winning both of those seats mean dems have a senate majority?
dusky raft
I don't think it was on trump's forecast that a virus from china would appear.
Narrow majority
shut vine
If they win both they are even I think?
elder portal
It was restructured, not dismantled.
The problem is that they had no leadership after Trump
shut vine
Then Harris is the tie breaker.
elder portal
I don't think it was on trump's forecast that a virus from china would appear.
Nothing was on Trump's forecast except himself, clearly
small root
Is that before or after the runoff results
elder portal
Also "virus from China" and "Chinese virus" is terminology far-right groups use to control information
shut vine
2 are from other parties.
elder portal
Happens all the time, but those particular terms are very far right
dusky raft
It was from china... You can't deny it
small root
To be fair those 2 caucus with Democrats
shut vine
Before all runoffs republicans have 50, Democrats have 46, other parties 2.
small root
So republicans have the potential to lose 2 seats?
shut vine
No, they have the potential to have 50, 51, 52.
shut vine
They can not have any other number.
mystic ermine
the virus has been catastrophic levels of mismanagement all around the place
elder portal
It's similar with "antifa" vs "anti-fascisn" - these are terms used on opposite ends of the spectrum to control information/the narrative
small root
How does the senate work if they are tied?
shut vine
President of the Senate breaks ties.
The president of the senate is the VP, or a person chosen by majority if there is no VP
elder portal
the virus has been catastrophic levels of mismanagement all around the place
Well, more so from the current president than many others. He was explicitly warned about this many times from many source, and did - not just nothing - but exactly the opposite of what should have been done, deliberately
small root
So when she becomes VP her seat becomes vacant, how is that filled?
mystic ermine
I'm not really sure what the presidents job should have been in this
small root
Unity
mystic ermine
Not saying that he didn't fuck up, but it's not like states had no hands in the movement
shut vine
It's already filled by Alex Padilla
small root
Ah
mystic ermine
NY has been on lockdown for months
shut vine
You can't run for Senate and VP I don't think
dusky raft
I'm not going around and saying it's the Chinese virus from wuhan china. Well for one saying that is just way too long, but two it doesn't describe the virus other than location. I don't think its controlling the narrative to point where a virus has originated from.
shut vine
You have to resign
elder portal
I'm not really sure what the presidents job should have been in this
At the very, very least not denying its existence and downplaying its role. Leading by example and actually wearing a mask and distancing, telling people to distance
That's the least he could have done
small root
Ah I thought you only vacate it once you’re confirmed
shut vine
The virus originating in China is scientific fact.
small root
So the VP essentially becomes the “majority leader” in the senate, because they have tie breaking abilities, but who decides what stuff is brought to a vote and such?
foggy fern
NBC is calling one of the GA elections for Warnock
Ossoff put out a statement that he is confident he won once the remaining ballots are counted
shut vine
Well technically Mitch would still be majority leader, but that role doesn't have an official power I don't think
mystic ermine
Yea, downplaying was defo a shitty move, but in some fringe case kinda understandable
small root
I don’t think it does either
I just want that sick fuck McConnell to stop having control over the entire legislative branch of the United States
Literally any other person IMO
shut vine
The reason Trump was allegedly instructed to downplay it was shortage of masks. This is according to the "medical experts".
mystic ermine
Then again, we had people on the side of the DNC who where literally "hey, lets go to chinatown"
tough cedar
still downplayed the virus afterwards
mystic ermine
Fauci also from the beginning iirc was consistenty coin flipping on if we should be wearing masks or not
shut vine
Yeah he was.
elder portal
Notice that anti-mask is almost entirely a Trump supporter thing, and his rallies have no distancing or masks. Still. That's not a coincidence
shut vine
AHA! It's a correlation. Guilty.
foggy fern
Eh, he never said no but he said there was no data showing it would help iirc
elder portal
There's no excuse for that
foggy fern
Not great still
elder portal
Not now, anyway
mystic ermine
it's an entire clusterfuck of management, god knows why the CDC also apparently said to put infected elderly people in care homes which lead to a massive ass culling :/
small root
Americans in general aren’t wearing masks
elder portal
Can make all the excuses you want for the first month or four, but it's still going on
shut vine
He on several occasions said people shouldn't wear masks in their day to day lives.
small root
More republicans than democrats, but neither “group” is doing any better
tough cedar
democrats are definitely doing better right now
small root
I worded that badly
foggy fern
I think the problem is some of his comments were about N95 masks but that wasn't clear either
But he was definitely wishy washy on masks in general at first
small root
Neither “group” is doing perfect
foggy fern
The only clear no I remember is N95
elder portal
It's been a damned year, you would think that at some point he would stop doing rallies, or at the very least tell his base to wear a damned mask
But nope
small root
A lot of people were, but they seem to work pretty well if everyone wears them
shut vine
States basically share most of the blame in the results, regardless of what Trump did/did not do regarding the public message. Though you could dishonestly argue that everyone (including Democrats) would follow Trumps direction if he said to wear masks. But that may be a stretch.
small root
Yeah my state fucked up
elder portal
The leader of the free world, ladies and gentlemen
foggy fern
States share most of the blame but the problem is no state could do the right thing unless everyone else did too 😛
shut vine
I don't think he handled it well, but most countries have not.
mystic ermine
I think trump saying to wear masks woulda one good in terms of getting people to wear masks
foggy fern
So we needed the federal government to get all the states to agree on things
small root
Cities are the only places that had any form of mask mandates, rural areas have 0 restrictions
Our state should have stepped in more and didn’t
elder portal
I'm taking about handling, right now. He still has done next to nothing
foggy fern
This is why NY was slow in doing some things because they were only doing what they could get their neighboring states to agree to
elder portal
Make whatever excuses you want about past behavior
He STILL has not actually told his base to wear a mask
mystic ermine
Imho, it really shoulda been on the states to do stuff rather than expecting every state to formulate a plan together
Yes he has
Well, He's not said that you SHOULD
tough cedar
no... this is the feds fault, not the states
elder portal
Clearly it didn't stick
mystic ermine
He's said that they're advising you to wear a mask
tough cedar
this is all the feds fault
shut vine
lol
tough cedar
this is a pandemic that affects us all, it makes sense the feds, that you know, oversee us all, would have a much bigger influence
elder portal
He's said that they're advising you to wear a mask
That's not direct enough for his base, and I'm sure he knows that
dusky raft
Hm, europe has less cases overall but a higher death rate, which does reflect a higher population.
foggy fern
NY and CA try to say if you come from another state you're required to quarantine but that's not really enforceable as a practical matter and they aren't allowed to ban entry from other states
mystic ermine
I mean, for all the level of fuckups down the chain, the entire stance is that because the top never put their hand up and called it, we shouldn't put our hands up and call it
It's a moronic clusterfuck on all levels
small root
Yup
restive seal
this is a pandemic that affects us all, it makes sense the feds, that you know, ...
And they did, by seizing shipments of supplies. That was fun.
mystic ermine
Inaction from the higher ups doesn't excuse your own inaction
tough cedar
sure, but when you word it like that you kinda dismiss that this is the feds fault
foggy fern
If NY could ban flights and have cops patrolling the border roads arresting everyone with out of state license plates they could have a lot more control over their own destiny
elder portal
The problem is that many people see a president without a mask, downplaying the virus
And of course they think it's not so bad
Duh
foggy fern
But that's unconstitutional
dusky raft
Yeah, states can't prop up security on their borders
small root
Why did we have to pick the fucking clown president in the most important few years of time in the past idk, 50 years?
foggy fern
Most states didn't even really try and the federal government was inconsistent and downplaying things so no state could really do all that well
tough cedar
i mean... i would've voted for him lol good thing i wasn't old enough at the time
small root
We live in some sick twisted timeline
restive seal
States that did try got the president calling to open up those states, to the point he basically motivated a plan to murder a governor.
elder portal
Oh I remember that
small root
It only costed us hundreds of thousands of preventable lives lost
foggy fern
Now even the states that are trying are shitshows because people are sick of the restrictions so ignoring them as much as they can get away with
elder portal
One of his many, many fuckups
mystic ermine
at least over in the UK, we're done with all the restrictions
Like, they make no sense at all
tough cedar
? didn't you just go back in lockdown?
small root
We have restrictions but they’re not enforced and people just don’t follow them
elder portal
NZ managed to completely wipe out the virus
foggy fern
If we had done a consistent heavy lockdown we could have done it for a short enough period to not wear people out and for the relief bill(s) to cover most of it and not have such a problem
mystic ermine
Yes, but the lockdown rules are fucking moronic
tough cedar
Australia is doing pretty well too aren't they?
foggy fern
England lockdown rules are the closest I've seen a Western government get to Wuhan's welding the doors shut 😛
I doubt they're being followed or enforced all that well though
elder portal
I mean, I'm not saying that what NZ did would work in the states but it sure helps that they actually took it seriously
mystic ermine
We lockdown for too short, cripple businesses without support at all, and lockdown weeks too late
dusky raft
Well, I don't like to be dark, but considering we live in one of the safest times from any sort of major pandemic, covid is kind of a joke compared to pandemics and hell, normal diseases even 75 years ago.
foggy fern
Oh hey Ossoff took the lead
small root
There is a pretty significant correlation between a country’s culture being more individualistic and having uncontrolled spread
dusky raft
We have denied nature to cull our population due to advancements in medicine.
small root
Which helps explain why countries like SK/China/Japan handled it very well vs USA/UK
dusky raft
Well I don't believe china at all with their numbers
mystic ermine
Issue is tryna find a balance between stopping the spread and maintaining lives
small root
I don’t believe them either
mystic ermine
There's reports that china apparently heavily downplayed the issue on their side
elder portal
Well, I don't like to be dark, but considering we live in one of the safest time...
Tell that to all the people who lost loved ones to it, I'm sure they'll love to hear how it's a much safer virus
mystic ermine
and apparently a recent report saying that it's been shown to come from a lab
Sooo :/
small root
But you can see SK/Japan probably not lying and their numbers are pretty stellar
mystic ermine
The biggest thing with lockdowns is supporting people
foggy fern
mystic ermine
It's all good being able to stop the spread of a virus but it means shit if you end up with a population on the streets or with no cash to be able to feed themselves
elder portal
"I'm sorry you lost both your mom and your dad last year, but don't worry! It's much safer now than it has been in previous pandemics! This virus is virtually non-existent!"
mystic ermine
The only real massive winners of this pandemic is the large companies like amazon
foggy fern
Yeah, they push all the people into a small area, wait for them to get riled up from being so close together, and then when someone snaps and throws something or forces the police line you kick the shit out of them
It's a shitty thing to do but it's how police get their excuse to declare a gathering unlawful and clear the streets
small root
The only real massive winners of this pandemic is the large companies like amazo...
Yeah, the rich are winning while the poor are losing. Maybe someday we will stop this
elder portal
But we can't shield ourselves
Not for lack of trying. Telling ourselves it's "not that bad" only cost us hundreds of thousands of lives
restive seal
and apparently a recent report saying that it's been shown to come from a lab
Can you provide a source on this that isn't something awful like the epoch times?
elder portal
^
foggy fern
When the police are pushing you a direction you back away from them and go sideways then try to circle around to where you started
mystic ermine
I just heard it, not read the report on it, hence the ":/"
small root
If it escaped from a lab in China, one would expect for them to make sure no one would ever find the source
elder portal
I just heard it, not read the report on it, hence the ":/"
And we wonder how misinformation gets spread do easily :P
mystic ermine
misinformation wouldn't be spread so easily if media corportations could be trusted to report on stuff and debunk it properly
restive seal
I just heard it, not read the report on it, hence the ":/"
With lots of love and respect, how is your remark any different from my crazy aunt forwarding nonsense on facebook then? 😦
foggy fern
Everything I've seen has said SARS-CoV-2 has none of the telltales you'd expect from a genetically modified virus and it does at least one thing in an obviously inefficient way that we could easily do better if we were trying to make it
iirc it's something with the ACE2 reuptake, whatever that means
mystic ermine
I mean, I'm a moron on the internet saying about info I've heard, if you wanna trust me at face value that's on you
foggy fern
restive seal
I mean, I'm a moron on the internet saying about info I've heard, if you wanna t...
Here, check this out - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/09/coronavirus-origins-misinformation-yan-report-fact-check-cvd/
elder portal
misinformation wouldn't be spread so easily if media corportations could be trus...
Corporations have nothing on the power of social networks. One of the things you learn in the security field is how places like Russia and orgs like the CIA spread misinformation on a national scale. That's how- not via Twitter, but instead via everyone's crazy aunt
small root
But I don’t think it’s worth it to focus on if it was an accidental lab leak or not. The focus should be on how we should have been able to tackle tho virus
And how to shut it down and prevent more unnecessary deaths
And how to plan for the future
mystic ermine
and if media corps would cover stuff and debunk it rather than staying silent on stuff, people would know more about info rather than just having to rely on what idiots on the internet say
elder portal
Twitter didn't exist when people believed that carrots made your eyesight better
They still do
small root
People generally believe the first thing they see and it’s harder to change their view after that than it was for them to believe it in the first place, misinformation in any form is dangerous
elder portal
Media corporations play a role, but it's much smaller than you'd imagine
foggy fern
Didn't the british push the carrots thing to hide the wonderful invention of RADAR?
elder portal
Yep
mystic ermine
wu?
foggy fern
They let parts of London get bombed so they didn't have a 100% record and claimed their successes (which always happened when something important was targeted) were because they ate a lot of carrots
mystic ermine
mfw
foggy fern
Success at stopping Nazi night bombing raids, that is
elder portal
They're tools, yes, but the technique now is the same as it was back then
And it definitely doesn't solely rely on corporations
mystic ermine
Imho, we need to get back to fact based news rather than opinion puff pieces
elder portal
It relies on many cats hearing something and posting it on many discords for someone else to hear
oak cloak
So happy that republicans won't be controlling the senate anymore, now we can excitedly wait for the democrats to do fuck all about literally anything
foggy fern
Clearer view of fighting with the police https://twitter.com/HadleySheley/status/1346684171092193282
mystic ermine
It's pretty hard to weed out the truth in everything these days it's all basically opinionative BS
tough cedar
i mean here's an article from AP in september saying the virus isn't man made
and all i had to search "was the coronavirus made in a lab"
elder portal
It's pretty hard to weed out the truth in everything these days it's all basical...
I dunno where you're getting your news, but it's pretty rare I stumble across an opinion piece rather than an article stating facts and adding in sources
mystic ermine
made, fucked with, and leakeed are 3 different concepts
foggy fern
tough cedar
interestingly at the very bottom of the google search i get an article from the NYPOst saying they have proof it exists
but nypost is tabloid so
elder portal
Only gets any credit now because it's similar in name to the NY times
Apparently waaaaaaaayyyy back when it was reputable
But that's long gone
foggy fern
Is it possible a lab discovered SARS-CoV-2 in the wild, had it in a lab, and it broke containment? Sure, but the virus is so infectious by the time they got a sample to figure out what it was it would have been spreading like wildfire in the wild anyway
elder portal
Because on the other side of that coin the washington post is good and the washington times is bad
Got that?
Don't mix those up
foggy fern
If it really did escape a lab it probably would have spread even worse during Chinese New Year because it would have been in rural areas up to that point so may not have been noticed until it was all over China
I worded that poorly
mystic ermine
You should hear some of the conspiracy theories I've heard around that one :L
foggy fern
If it was only in some remote area until the lab got it things would have been worse without a lab escape
elder portal
Who doesn't love a good tinfoil hat story
foggy fern
But I don't think that's likely either, just possible
elder portal
I have a few tinfoil hat stories I can't disprove reasonably either
They're fun
But occam's razor strikes hard
foggy fern
It spread fast enough through Wuhan they were able to realize something was wrong and lock things down before CNY. If it was only in rural areas up until CNY it may have been missed because people die from weird shit all the time in rural subsistence farming but during CNY everyone travels all over the country
They got pretty lucky with that
valid falcon
huh?
elder portal
Speaking of occam's razor, has Trump finally accepted that he legitimately lost?
foggy fern
But yeah, it turns out you can be banned from a city or state if you break the law there
elder portal
I haven't kept up on that story
valid falcon
No. And that is the simplest answer.
elder portal
Rip
valid falcon
The real answer is a lot more complicated, but same result.