Not seeing it as an attack. It was a comparison. The 25th has been floated for Trump, as well.
#politics
cosmic badge
shut vine
I wouldn't like to see anyone have to suffer through dementia under public scrutiny.
cosmic badge
Biden's state of mind is not any worse than Trump's, so if the bar is that low, I can't see him being removed by the 25th.
shut vine
Hell, if Morgan Freeman had it I'd not want to see him suffering through it in the public eye.
fast flame
i definitely dont think biden has full blown dementia
there is no way any respectable clinician would allow him to run for the fucking presidency if they truly thought he had a mental handicap like that
hes just old and when you get old, your articulation deteriorates. it's normal. also byte is right that the right's attacks on him as being mentally incapable are null as trump is arguably worse off in that department.
fast flame
lul that's just straight up false
elder portal
it's possible GOP electors were sent
iirc there were several states in which they were, actually
Georgia has a video of police blocking the GOP electors from entering the building
but the rest got through
at least from what I've been reading
fast flame
nevada already cast their electoral votes for biden though
elder portal
the democratic party's electors cast their votes, yes
it's highly likely the GOP's will be invalidated
but that falls on the house
and possibly Pence?
on the 6th, the senate confirms the electoral votes
the ones marked as valid
but yeah, apparently most of the contested states saw the GOP send their own electors to contest the electoral votes
fast flame
dickheads
shut vine
Joint session decides, basically.
Both the House and the Senate must majority confirm a states electoral result.
Unless uncontested, in which case the President of the Senate basically just reads the counts out by state alphabetically.
arctic tangle
Just continuing the earlier discussion, this video was released within the last 24 hours so that's pretty convenient :P it's also a pretty good dive into the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMB_I9j5qZQ
shut vine
Yeah agree with most of what he says, especially that it's a difficult problem to handle effectively.
cosmic badge
Hit 'em all with anti-trust.
sweet canyon
Interesting. https://aftau.org/news_item/led-lights-found-to-kill-coronavirus-global-first-in-fight-against-covid-19/
foggy fern
That was news like 6 months ago, I guess they finally got published?
Or someone else got the same idea published
It's not normal LEDs, it's still the gives-you-cancer UV lights, just in LED form
And supposedly low enough power that you'd have to try to get cancer from them, especially since they'd be inside air ducts and such
It is important to note that it is very dangerous to try to use this method to disinfect surfaces inside homes. To be fully effective, a system must be designed so that a person is not directly exposed to the light.
mystic ermine
Well, nice that there is a paper on that, but, UV killing living cells is nothing new, not sure if we've really learnt much here, but, not my area of pervue
potent halo
elder portal
internal screaming
I love it
It's actually a really good summary of how elections work for @near glen
Basically what I said earlier. Each state determines how elections are run
And wow, he's also just absolutely slamming Republicans here
Justifiably so, as the Texas lawsuit goes completely against the very thing Republicans say they want
Which is state's rights
elder portal
TIL "New California" and "New Nevada" exist
And apparently they think they are states
mystic ermine
lol
weary obsidian
its like the concept of being able to rationally consider my governments advice as logical advice that benefits me vs an order to perform sex acts against my will is unthinkable
cosmic badge
It's pretty unfair that shitheads like this occupy ICU beds while those who actually believe in the science are dying due to medical delays.
arctic tangle
What they don't seem to understand is that the logical conclusion of their argument is anarchy, not conservatism. After all, you pay taxes because the government told you to, aren't you glad they didn't tell you to suck a dick? etc, etc. Conservatism is actually pretty big-government. When gay marriage was being argued in the US, homophobes came out the woodwork pretending to be small-government Republicans saying that marriage grants should be a state thing... all the while being perfectly content with the federal government enforcing straight marriage beforehand, but I digress.
near glen
I gave up trying to understand that logic years ago
We don't want to get the gov involved, unless it exclusively affects others we hate
restive seal
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect
near glen
Oh so i got it right
foggy fern
> Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-gro...
Take that, add nationalism, crank it up to 11, and you have fascism
torn wadi
elder portal
Going to take a rapid test for COVID because my girlfriend's dentist apparently got it and she visited recently
Neither of us have insurance, so we get to pay $160 for the both of us to get tested
Because they said we should, because her dentist got it
Fun.
weary obsidian
how recently? i wouldnt take it so fast, that rapid one has chance to give a false negative specially if done too soon
elder portal
Couple weeks ago
weary obsidian
you gotta actually have virus build up in nose
WEEKS? if she hasnt been to that doctor in 14 days, thats pretty clear
elder portal
Yeah, she visited about two weeks ago
weary obsidian
id say your safe lol, 14 is like the rarer upper max of showing symptoms.
unless you think you were totally asymptomatic
elder portal
They called her about four days ago so saying her doctor had it at the time without knowing
They recommended getting tested in case of being asymptomatic
weary obsidian
my family dodged the bullet some how, dont understand how
brothers gf tested positive,they slept in same bed, kissing etc obviously...
how the hell did he not get it
weary obsidian
oh i thought you were "about to go" based on tone of msg
elder portal
Should be
I am, it's already paid
I feel perfectly fine, but there's always the chance
I'm likely fine
Oh, never mind, it's $160 each
So would cost us $320 for both of us to get tested
arctic tangle
..........for a COVID test?
restive seal
Yeah. America is great!
elder portal
Good news is girlfriend is negative, so I'm probably negative
foggy fern
eww an amp link
So I'm a little confused, do we really have any evidence Latino people voted for Trump higher than expected? I mean, the polling was pretty far off and misunderstanding that demographic could explain it but afaik they're just going off election day exit polling but whether you voted on election day or not was a pretty good indicator of who you voted for
I mean only polling people who voted on election day is a huge bias to the data
foggy fern
Everyone in Brazil is going to be required to be vaccinated or lose access to all government services and various other restrictions
They're treating it the same as measles or meningitis vaccines which are also required for everyone in Brazil
I'm sure they have health exceptions but no opt-out for religious or conspiracy reasons
fast flame
So I'm a little confused, do we really have any evidence Latino people voted for...
Yes but it’s hard to quantify the Latino vote as one demographic. The diversity within “Latino” is immense.
So we know that Cubans generally went for trump because of their hate for communism which is ironic
Catholic Mexicans went for Biden but it was closer
And then the Latino vote in California was 80 to 20 for Biden
So the Latino vote is so split along regional and cultural boundaries that these days most poli sci folks aren’t categorizing it as one demographic
foggy fern
Sure but as a demographic it still went for Trump was more than in 2016
Less than for, say, Bush, but higher than expected
At least according to exit polls, I think that's the only data we have so I'm suspect
But everyone seems to accept it as true so maybe there is more to it
glacial arrow
restive seal
Okay we're all doomed.
foggy fern
They want their wire taps back
But 50 years ago you would talk in person instead of email or text message and even if you sent a letter it'd probably be thrown away or shredded or whatever
But now they want to be able to access everything you've ever said or thought about too and that's where things get really scary
restive seal
They like to pretend that there was no way to be secretive before the Internet.
foggy fern
They used to have to catch you in the act or talking about the act, now they can recover those conversations later
Or they could, until people realized and started encrypting everything and they lost access to their panopticon
Now they're trying to get it back
brisk cradle
Twitter
dusky raft
id be down to $18,000 if we stopped giving money outside and to big business
but even then
why $18,000?
also
foggy fern
Probably 9 months at the rate Canada was doing
But I thought Canada only did that for like 3 months?
dusky raft
thats an impossible amount of money to tack on
of course, unless my calculations are incorrect
yeah, 5 trillion if we count the entire US population, we would have to cut quite a lot out of our government funding to help secure that amount
brisk cradle
Hell, even doing $1200 a month would be an improvement
foggy fern
We didn't have the money we gave out for the CARES Act either
Doesn't matter, just printed it and went on our way
brisk cradle
Everyone believes in Modern Monetary Theory when it comes to military spending!
dusky raft
we should cut military spending
brisk cradle
Yes, we should.
dusky raft
its going to projects that havent seen the light of day maybe since the first bush went into office
and we should cut foreign aid, since clearly many countries just run with it
essentially welfare for tyrants+
foggy fern
We give them money so their states don't collapse and become somewhere we have to bomb later 😛
It's cheaper than the bombs
dusky raft
or just ignore completely and let the region take care of it?
nothing wrong with blissful ignorance, it wasnt our problem to begin off with
foggy fern
We said that for WW1 and WW2, finally decided it couldn't be true anymore
dusky raft
and countries hate us for being the world police
foggy fern
smoky hedge
Everyone in Brazil is going to be required to be vaccinated or lose access to al...
Yikes, I'm strongly against this
Like, losing access to welfare is a major major yikes
I think everyone who can get the vaccine should, but like - I don't trust governments to be able to determine if someone can get it
Cutting off welfare from people who can't get it, and are likely getting pushed aside by the government in other ways too, is just a horrible thing to happen
near glen
dont forget that brazil is ruled by what is basically an authoritarian army regime
dusky raft
I remember there was something about mandating vaccinations in some US state
I dont think it passed
not in regards to covid, this was awhile ago
fast flame
Yeah Brazil is an interesting case
Run by an inconsiderate and explicitly bigoted asshole wannabe dictator
dusky raft
welcome to quite a bit of the UN @fast flame
sand shale
restive seal
felt cute might investigate declaring martial law later
Here's some fun fan fiction for ya
near glen
That feels dum
Can't you represent that ppl get discriminated without throwing them all into the poc box? Lol
weary obsidian
near glen
ah yes
elder portal
Well, I could almost have played devil's advocate until that last sentence
plush crypt
"vanilla isis" — great comments too
loud flax
LOL sounds like the proud boys are the ones currently in the kitchen on that one
torn wadi
Sounds like a "Time to open everything" situation for us.
The situation here is "3 months of lockdown while everything is going to shit", what do we do? OPEN EVERYTHING since that will help.
Spoiler alert, it didn't.
foggy fern
So that's why they did it
I was surprised Lou Dobbs would have that after all the shit he has been spewing, thought maybe he was just trying to not lose Georgia
fast flame
Nah Dominion the voting machine company sued the shit outta them
Fox will be fine because they’re backed by Murdoch and have all but limitless funds and lawyers, but here’s hoping that a hefty enough lawsuit might take out OANN or Newsmax
I think it’s great that Fox is forcing this over the worst Fox opinion programs in Dobbs, Pirro, and Bartiromo
None of those beat Hannity in the Trump dick-rider club but it’s still satisfying
foggy fern
Newsmax and OANN kind of ran similar stories
Newsmax basically denied they ever actually said those things rather than having guests on that say them but clarified they have no evidence any of the crazy claims have any truth to them
restive seal
Oh no Soros got to newsmax and oann
foggy fern
Twitter
Stupid bill they passed has at least two bullshit laws included in it
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/the-covid-19-stimulus-bill-would-make-illegal-streaming-a-felony and https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20201221/09573745928/congress-once-again-sells-out-to-hollywood-sneaks-case-act-felony-streaming-bill-into-government-funding-omnibus.shtml
mystic ermine
It's such bullshit that they slide this fucking moronic shit into other bills
Like, they should find a way to make it illegal to slide shit which stands no merit in a bill
foggy fern
It's a tricky problem because unrelated shit in bills is how they do compromises
You give me the funding I want for NIH, I give you open carry in federal parks, we put them both in the spending bill to keep us honest
weary obsidian
https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1341546468436553728?s=19 well didnt see that coming
tough cedar
i dont get any cause i still live at home
arctic tangle
https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1341546468436553728?s=19 well didnt see t...
it's probably to overshadow his new wave of pardons
tough cedar
lol wasteful foreign aid
obviously i don't know what foreign aid is in the bill but that's very trump right there
arctic tangle
some of the foreign aid was very thonk worthy
The thing about the stimulus is that it scales up massively, so even though I'm sure people got very uppity about the "no less than $25m" for various progressive interests in Pakistan, getting rid of that only frees up money enough to give stimulus cheques to a medium sized town
$25m is a drop in the bucket to the world's largest economy
foggy fern
So Democrats passed $2000 months ago, Republicans blocked it and weren't willing to negotiate so it ended up with Democrats talking to Secretary Mnuchin who would never say what Trump wanted but was just there as a stand in for McConnell
Now they finally talked within the Congress and passed something smaller and Trump throws it back because he wanted the $2000
If he actually does veto it that also means a government shutdown, the relief was a part of the budget bill
foggy fern
elder portal
Tar and feathers
Classic
Tax will push that over $600, but you can just get rid of one of those feathers
bleak echo
not in oregon it won't
elder portal
I mean, can't really complain about free money I guess, but I can't help but feel like $600 is a slap in the face more than anything
And the added bonus of taking a hard turn into terrible copyright laws doesn't help
I'm sure I can find a use for the money, and I'm sure other people desperately need it, but I doubt it really does any good for most people. It's not even enough for a month's rent in most places
Like, fuck, man
arctic tangle
The pardon power was adopted from an English tradition known as the Royal Prerogative of English Kings which gave the King the ability to overturn any sentence. Might seem counterintuitive that the American founders adopted the pardon since they just revolted against King George III because they thought he had too much power. James Madison wrote that giving one person legislative, executive, and judicial powers was the very definition of tyranny. So why does the Constitution give the President to quickly reverse a court's judgement? Well, ask Alexander Hamilton who argued that the pardon power was a tool the President could use to swiftly diffuse tensions during times of national crisis. George Washing immediately used the pardon to end the Whiskey Rebellion. And giving the tax protesting farmers a pardon instead of sentencing them to death worked out pretty well. But Hamilton trusted the pardon because he thought it would only be used by the most virtuous of men.
You borrowed so much of, well, everything from us :P
foggy fern
Trump veto'ed the defense bill too
House Democrats and Republicans say they'll cut their holiday short to come back and vote to override the veto, Senate leadership seems equally pissed at him but aren't saying for sure if they will
Trump singled out Section 230 in his message, calling it a "very dangerous national security risk."
cosmic badge
McConnell has to bring the amended bill to a vote or risk losing Georgia, methinks.
As for Trump's motivations for doing this... no clue.
foggy fern
This isn't even for the covid stuff, unrelated bill
cosmic badge
Ah right
foggy fern
He veto'ed the military budget
cosmic badge
Isn't defense appropriations usually veto proof?
foggy fern
Because it didn't get rid of section 230, blocked him from pulling funds from base schooling to build his wall, and requires bases to not be named after confederate generals
It is and was, yeah
cosmic badge
Imagine Trump pulling troops out of Korea before he exits office. What a shit show that would be lol
restive seal
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/23/949820820/trump-pardons-roger-stone-paul-manafort-and-charles-kushner
foggy fern
Dr Birx spent a few years in the Army, worked under Fauci at NIAID then later went to CDC fighting AIDS for 35 years and all it took was one year dealing with Trump to end her career
loud flax
this anime sure has been running for a long time
244 years about
trump the villain has sure altered the plot a lot!
arctic tangle
They can and often are useful, for example giving clemency for crimes now considered ridiculous. Imagine being able to pardon people who are spending time in jail for smoking weed, or those who were persecuted under racist / homophobic laws. And iirc the confederates were pardoned after the civil war, which helped keep the union together.
I do agree that what Trump is doing is corrupt, pure and simple, but that doesn't mean the pardon power is inherently bad. There's no need for essentialism.
Well, he was elected by the people
Yes, he was. I understand your complaints about the Electoral College, but he was democratically elected.
Something being unrepresentative doesn't necessarily make it undemocratic
Nor does someone being indirected elected necessarily make it undemocratic
It can be undemocratic, but it isn't inherently, it depends on the situation
Sorry to say that your system doesn't care
Not necessarily. The Electoral College is bad, I do agree, and it was a temporary solution to the issue of how to elect a president. I can and do understand the flaws, particularly in regards to how disparately people are represented depending on how populous their state is.. but ultimately something doesn't need to mirror a direct democracy for something to be democratic.
People are so impassioned about the Electoral College now not because they've woken up to a campaign of changing the Constitution, but because Trump won.
It's true, if it weren't Trump, the discussion around the Electoral College would be far less fervent
And you just assumed that when I said people in general that I was referring to you specifically
Calm down.
That image shows what I was talking about
But you're assuming that majority support and fervent campaigning are synonymous. It could be the case that people generally agreed that the Electoral College should be amended or repealed but it wasn't what got them to the ballot box, but now the tone has shifted.
Part of the problem is that you vest these powers in people with inherently political intent
near glen
Why do pardons need to handled by one single individual
Why not have a vote somewhere
Pardons only should be given if the country agrees, so it would need to be passed in congress, as that's the closest representation of the people you have, right?
cosmic badge
Would be nice if pardon powers were restricted to a House vote 😛
That's the closest to democratic representation we have in the US
Approximately 1 representative for every 700,000 people. Shitty, but the best we've got.
arctic tangle
Pardons can be challenged iirc
near glen
It just seems crazy to me that the whole power of the judicial system can be overturned by one single individual
arctic tangle
Not entirely, iirc pardons are for criminal convictions so don't apply to civil cases, and also don't apply to impeachment
I do think there should be more ways to contest a pardon, but this hysteria around the concept of pardons itself seems a little silly
near glen
I mean, look at whom he pardoned.
some dude who worked for dictators over the world and hid his money from the gov, so no taxes, worked for trump in 2016
some dude who tried to obstruct trumps ties to russia by lying, tampering with witnesses and general obstruction (actually multiple ppl like that were pardoned)
some dude who funded international terrorism (the reasoning for this one is nice, hes "one of Congress' most stalwart defenders of pro-life principles", aka he was pardoned as a gift for right wing hard liners)
some dudes working for private military in bagdad who murdered civilians with granade launchers
some dudes who shot an immigrant at the us border for no apparent reason and "forgot" to report the incident (bush already commuted their sentences, trump deleted the records, because that was clearly nessasary)
some dude who made 1.3 billion in bribing doctors to refer patients to his facilities, bribed regulators, exaggerated prices and some mixing ppl with mental illnesses with other patiences, which lead to a killing
the dad of his daughters husband, 16 counts of tax evation and blackmailing a witness
thats just a few I have found
arctic tangle
What I'm seeing for the most part here and elsewhere is people proclaiming that pardons are bad and pointing at Trump, and I agree that his wave of pardons absolutely reeks of corruption and cronyism, but I haven't heard anything about balance of power (beyond abolishing pardons) or the rule of law or any other kind of argument.. it just all kinda pitchforky.
near glen
well, I made it clear where I stand, I dont think a single individual without control should be allowed the circumvent the whole judicial system
because that leads to exactly what the whole balance of power tries to do
I just glanced over the list of ppl obama pardoned and commuted, fucking 1900 (!!!), but they just look like minor drug related crimes
so its bad, just not as bad
arctic tangle
The interaction between pardons and the rule of law is so interesting, because it's effectively nullifying the law for that person for that specific instance of criminal conduct, and that's something that no other type of power can do, at least off the top of my head
near glen
to me, this is setting a dangerous precedent. its possible to pardon ppl that helped you are are likeminded.
also, I dont think that trump made those pardons, ppl "controlling" him suggested them, which is even more dangerous
arctic tangle
That's the tug of war with power though, a lot of the minutiae is left to convention, and that's generally accepted because you simply cannot account for every situation, which is why Common Law is a thing, at least here in the UK. So when someone oversteps their bounds, it's the duty of the stakeholders to hold them to account and to update the rules. And while the institutions of government can go someway towards doing that, it's ultimately the job of you, the people, to keep the government in check.
It's like the first paragraph of your Declaration of Independence
arctic tangle
The pardon power is used far more rarely here
Also just got a notification that Trump has pardoned 26 more people
foggy fern
afaik pardons cannot be challenged
You can impeach him and remove him from office for abusing them but that doesn't undo them
arctic tangle
The President cannot create laws, nor stop laws from the legislative branch
Executive Orders are NOT laws, they only apply to federal agencies
The President's veto is NOT a veto, it kicks the legislation back to Congress to require a higher majority
Eh, not really
It's not legislation, it's more like.. company policy
And you are correct that when the legislative branch is divided, the President's veto can in effect be a veto, but it seems McConnell is doing most of the vetoing on Trump's behalf
Has Trump vetoed a single thing that went through the House and Senate? o.O
State Governor ≠ Federal President
restive seal
arctic tangle
https://www.senate.gov/legislative/vetoes/TrumpDJ.htm
Thank you
How so? The federal head of the federal government is defined by different things than a state government
Just looked it up, it's not the same power. California's state law specifically grants the governor the power to declare curfew during times of local emergency.
brisk cradle
The affidavit says the Ohio teen put Nazi flags in his room, but his mother told him to take them down.
this is the funniest part
foggy fern
Trump asked for $2000 and no foreign aid (this is our yearly budget, not some extra aid tossed in with just the relief)
Democrats tried to rush the $2000, Republicans said no. Republicans tried to rush cutting all foreign aid, Democrats said no.
cosmic badge
Unanimous consent seems pretty dumb on House Democrats' part.
Why did they do that?
foggy fern
So they could do it today instead of after Christmas
cosmic badge
But any one Republican objecting would've shut down the UC request lol
foggy fern
Probably figured it would fail but now they can point to Republicans for why it failed
cosmic badge
It's not like the checks would arrive by Christmas even if they passed it today
foggy fern
Even if he didn't veto they wouldn't arrive until after the 1st
Right after, but still
cosmic badge
This almost feels like Pelosi wanted it to fail.
cosmic badge
It was obvious some Republicans were going to object to it, so seems to me the logical thing to do, if you wanted it to actually pass, was to hold a normal vote.
dusky raft
wait, foreign aid in a covid stimulus package?
cosmic badge
So it was all about creating a headline and winning Georgia rather than actually putting $2000 into the pockets of Americans 😛
dusky raft
jesus christ, 5000+ pages
foggy fern
wait, foreign aid in a covid stimulus package?
No, the covid relief got rolled in to the yearly budget bill
dusky raft
oh for fuck sakes, they should have kept it seperate
foggy fern
They kicked the can on the budget earlier in the month, passed a 2 week CR
cosmic badge
A normal vote in the worst case I assume, means if it passes in both houses the checks could arrive a week or two later than anticipated?
foggy fern
So they had to pass it before they went home and also wanted the covid relief before they went home
And putting them together made it less obvious what bullshit was added where to get votes
Senate Republicans are not going to vote for $2000
cosmic badge
If it meant getting $2000 instead of $600, I feel most Americans would be okay waiting another couple of weeks.
foggy fern
We're probably going to end up with Biden inaugurated during a government shutdown and then Congress passing a budget without the covid stuff in it
dusky raft
I really want to see the government spend less
cosmic badge
Republicans don't give a shit about government spending.
cosmic badge
Of course not. They are both guilty of that.
Republicans just like to pretend they're fiscal conservatives.
foggy fern
Democrat is going to be in the White House, time for the budget hawks to come out of hibernation
dusky raft
last time I heard, the government burns through $80-90 billion in a few hours
which is insane...
or something along those lines
cosmic badge
I doubt that's an actual figure. The defense budget for example is like $700-800 billion/yr
And that's insane.
foggy fern
2020 included COVID relief and was an average of $742,009,132 an hour
$12,366,818 a minute
cosmic badge
Yeah that seems more likely.
dusky raft
Id rather see the government actually shrink and tell businesses to go fuck off
unless space
I dont mind investing in space programs
foggy fern
Everyone has an "unless", that's how things get big 😛
dusky raft
true
foggy fern
Same thing with software features
Everyone is like "someone should make an MS Office with just the important features" but after you find out what the important features are for a significant chunk of their userbase you end up with like 80% of Office
dusky raft
I am more into private companies leading the charge in a competitive environment, sort of what we are seeing with SpaceX and a few other companies
foggy fern
SpaceX was kept alive with government funding to get to that point
NASA threw them a ton of cash to "explore viability" of things
The end result is something cheap enough they can survive on just launch fees and also do R&D on Starship but it took time and money to get there
dusky raft
yeah, while government was what kept them alive, mainly due to how getting into space was setup.
they did innovate compared to NASA's big contractors over the last few decades
foggy fern
Absolutely, they had good ideas and solid execution, just needed a lot of money to get over the hump
dusky raft
thats why Im fine with space exploration being funded by government at the meantime, the private sector is emerging from what was a public agencies field
foggy fern
So you like the government picking winners and losers? 😄
mystic ermine
I think government should be ran like a business with proper transparency
dusky raft
what I mean to say is that besides launching more junk into space, there isnt much of a private sector to other operations
mystic ermine
SpaceX's funding wasn't just a magical tossing of cash, much as how many private businesses throw cash towards others for market research, etc
dusky raft
yeah, SpaceX was mostly funded by paypal money originally
mystic ermine
Competition in the industry is what strives cost down; Why would boeing sell a booster that can land itself if they can just sell you a new one?
dusky raft
it wasnt just government gave musk all the money he needed, he was desperate to get a government contract to keep his company alive
mainly due to how operating in space worked in the US
mystic ermine
Without NASA being given more budget and stuff to actually do, or a means to bring the costs down, am not really sure what the point with NASA is these days or how long it could even survive
dusky raft
you cant just launch rockets into the sky and the aerospace administration would be okay with it
foggy fern
On a related note, I don't understand how Musk thinks Starship will be cheaper for putting stuff in orbit vs Falcon 9
Starship is a lot bigger
mystic ermine
maybe after you consider payload capacity? 🤷♂️
foggy fern
Starship: 400 ft tall, 30 ft wide, 11,000,000 lbs with payload
Falcon 9: 230 ft tall, 12 ft wide, 1,210,457 lbs with payload
Starship makes sense for other planets (including the Moon) or putting heavy things into GEO but I can't see it being cheaper for ISS missions
But they want to retire the Falcon 9 and be all Starship, every launch
It'd probably be cheaper for Starlink too since they can launch more at once
near glen
It's easy, it's 100% reusable and can launch rapidly
That brings cost down big time
Also different fuel which is cheaper iirc
Especially since spacex will produce fuel on site
foggy fern
I know the weight I gave is with full size payload and full fuel so it would be lighter with a smaller launch but the fixed weight of the craft will still be a lot higher so you waste fuel bringing it
The rocket equation is a bitch
near glen
I am pretty sure he thinks it's cheaper just for reusability
foggy fern
But I guess if they can have it 100% reusable and launch rapidly the economies of scale might tip it over
Wasteful though 😛
near glen
Such is capitalism, lol
But yeah, refurbishing even a falcon nine booster is a heavy task
Starship is designed to land and launch much like a plane does
Quick checkup, refuel, go
God knows if that's actually gonna work
But it's elon musk so anything is possible I guess
In theory they could go to iss without a falcon super heavy, starships booster, i think
Super heavy with its 28 or whatever stupid amount of raptors go on that thing in the current design is a ton of the weight of the combined startship
Going on top of my mind here, but i think, fully loaded with fuel, it was like 8 out of the 11
foggy fern
Ooh, Starlink is going to end up being a part of the US military budget
They're experimenting with putting terminals on planes so they can network better
mystic ermine
foggy fern
Easier to jam but much faster and simpler so they can strip the traditional radio systems down to the essentials
(but can't replace it entirely)
foggy fern
vs 60 on falcon 9
So Starship will need to cost less than 7x what a Falcon 9 launch does
near glen
And a launch of starship should cost 2 million, 900k of that for fuel
All musk "estimates"/wishful thinking I guess
foggy fern
2 million is assuming everything works perfectly and after they have all the infrastructure in place to launch one every 2 days
And have enough customers to support launching every 2 days
near glen
I couldn't find references of single stage to iss, but, apperently musk has been proposing using second stage startship for earth to earth transportation
At mach fucking 20 with a range of 10k km
Because that makes fucking sense
foggy fern
Suborbital flights is something right out of the last 50 years of sci-fi
near glen
That has been pre covid tho, i would hope buisness world is used enough to video calls now so that that shit isn't nessasary anymore
foggy fern
There are radiation concerns, you couldn't be a frequent flyer
near glen
Because that is really a waste
Heh, ask musk about radiation issues
He refuses to add radiation shielding to startship for mars missions
Saying something like "it's not too big of a deal"
As usual, if half of what musk promises becomes reality, humans are about to make big steps again
foggy fern
Not a joke, it exists: https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-defense-of-scrooge-whose-thrift-blessed-the-world-11608762986
near glen
wait
america is discovering there is something in between radical left and radicla right? 😮
what a breakthrough 😄
elder portal
Screenshot (Dec 25, 2020 9:14:11 AM)
elder portal
america is discovering there is something in between radical left and radicla ri...
I read this at one point and agreed with it to an extent: reaching across the aisle only works if the other party isn't creating a chasm to avoid you
Though maybe there's enough moderates and centrists left to make that work
I believe the original quote had the other party scooting chairs farther away, but I think I've seen more division recently than trying to make Biden a republican
foggy fern
Obama tried to reach across the aisle too, Republicans put him on an isle in response 😛
cosmic badge
The Tea Party movement was the worst thing to happen to American politics within the last couple of decades, methinks.
To me, feels like the only reason the movement gained any traction was because Obama is black.
near glen
Not really politics, but i just found an amazing article explaining the biontech vaccine, basically reverse engineering the mrna and explaining it in by comparing it to a computer program, so this easy to understand
This leaves me amazed at the human body, and amazed at years of scientific research that just now falls into place and helps to develop this vaccine
The first human injection was just 66 days after the virus was decoded
To get back into politics: lufthansa is shipping foods to brexit land so y'all don't starve https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/status/1341738173672599553?s=19
loud flax
right off the bat i'm impressed at that image mini, just like looking at a hexdump
shy gulch
sweet canyon
pearl plinth
Love how they turned it to be bad on him
Even though he tried to make them set it to $2000 and the GOP REJECTED IT
yet trump is still the bad guy...
I fucking hate the media
near glen
Well, if one single person is blocking a democraticly created law, he's bad, right?
mystic ermine
The horror was the size of the bill and the way it was dishing out cash
nobody could approve that bill in content, it was done as a political "fuck it", and send fucktons of money abroad but here's $600 to account for the fact that we closed the economy
I saw something somewhere which was hinting that cali which has some of the strongest lockdown measures yet cases are still soaring massively
I can only imagine depression season after not being able to see others for almost a year now defo doesn't help with people following the rules
near glen
Well, the bill was passed with a majority tho, so by definition it represents the will of the people
And no single person should be able to deny that
Doesn't have much to do with the content of the bill really
mystic ermine
How can you know that it represents the will of the people when you can't even read the thing fully?
There was the expectation that those signing it would not be able to read the entire thing, AOC even complained about the fact that there was no chance that the people signing the thing could know entirely what it entails
then they seemingly pulled a "trump asked for a higher amount and for the wasteful spending to be reduced, so, we'll just increase the budget and not cut out the crud", knowing full well that the GOP would turn that down
near glen
I don't know so many details about that, why would they not be able to read the bill?
That's even dummer
mystic ermine
It was literally hundreds of pages
They had like 24 hours or whatever to sign it
Now you have the political BS of you either sign it, or you don't sign it and look like a twat holding the bill up
near glen
Oh it was too long to read
Thats different
I thought they couldn't read because it was locked behind doors
Like the titip bullshit back then
shy gulch
Even though he tried to make them set it to $2000 and the GOP REJECTED IT
what? neither republicans nor democrats would EVER pass it at $2000. it's bad thing because Trump tried to pass it knowing it would fail and it's just a way of for trump to "protect his legacy" and make it seem as he is the good guy (which he's not). Trump would never actually want that bill to be passed, so it's just for the media to report on and make it seem like he tried to do something good.
I don't think Trump actually cares about the average person who would be receiving stimulus checks.
mystic ermine
many people aren't happy with $600 while millions is sent abroad for gender programs
restive seal
I saw something somewhere which was hinting that cali which has some of the stro...
Yeah there are idiots in every state gleefully ignoring safety requests and spreading it. No need to single out california
10 million for pakistan gender programs is under 17000 people's 600 dollar check. Yes, there's stuff flowing out of the country but most of it's staying in - https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-spending-bill-provide-more-funds-foreigners-americans-1557193
How little is going to the people is really upsetting, after waiting so long since the last shitty stimulus.
mystic ermine
I don't think it's so much the amount going abroad which is the issue as much as how much people feel stiffed by the deal
restive seal
Yeah, very much a feelings don't care about your facts situation. And even the facts, when it comes to direct support to the people, are terrible!
sweet canyon
I can only imagine depression season after not being able to see others for almo...
I thought people were staying inside too. I went with a few family members to look at Christmas lights last night and we drove like 45 minutes to go see them. The amount of people there AND not wearing masks were very alarming. They just don't care anymore.
mystic ermine
I think that the biggest thing with lockdowns is that they stiff over the people who are the poorer in society or those struggling to run businesses to keep food on their table
e.g. that hollywood video where the woman apparently got told to fuck off over her outside dining, yet some hollywood bunch where basically around the corner with a pretty much identical setup
restive seal
If we just got support to those people it wouldn't be such a problem 😦
mystic ermine
That's the horror is that you can't have lockdowns without support, and basically people are forced to take lockdowns without support and any words against that is literally murder
I think proper isolation defo needs to be in play for the elderly and care workers, but, I question if there needs to be such hard-enforced measures which see people tryna survive massively fined
restive seal
Democrats in the House passed a second bill in May, and Republicans wouldn't even touch it in the Senate until July when they proposed something 1/6th it's size (despite having waited extra months). Such a mess.
if there needs to be such hard-enforced measures which see people tryna survive massively fined
If we need to keep people from doing something, as certain actions present a health risk to the entire population, fines are a better alternative to jail (which would only make things worse!).
That strict enforcement needs to be coupled with strong financial support from the government, but when one party has spent much of its time suggesting the virus isn't a big deal...
mystic ermine
last I saw of the early one is that the democrats wanted a ton of cash to go towards bailing out a bunch of cities and lots of other crud in the process, pelosi also was apparently unwilling to speak to the opposition too, but, god knows there
It's all poltical BS and backpeddling
if both parties crumbled into dust, am pretty sure everything would be in a much better place
restive seal
ton of cash to go towards bailing out a bunch of cities
Great! That's better than bailing out banks again!
pelosi also was apparently unwilling to speak to the opposition
[citation needed] (really, I'd like to see info on that)
Yeah, if we could replace the parties with ones that actually represent the people we'd be in a much better, more progressive place. 😦
mystic ermine
Oh, maybe not entirely, but, seems like she refused to talk to trump for a year
foggy fern
foggy fern
Note at the bottom it suggests after this fraud is proven by not voting it will overturn the Presidential election too as well as ensuring the Republican governor and both Republican senators go to prison and a new governor can appoint proper Republicans to those seats
foggy fern
Sent Congress scrambling and people in to turmoil saying it was getting a veto then just signs it anyway
Guess he realized things would be way worse without it
cosmic badge
Doubt it comes from a position of concern for anything other than his own ego.
I'm more impressed he did sign it instead of continuing to destroy the GOP.
I hope the #BoycottGeorgia thing takes off 🙂
The theory that if enough Republicans boycott, somehow the votes will go negative and thus expose obvious fraud is amazing. Who comes up with this shit lmao
shut vine
I'm pretty sure it was the most logical choice, the bill had a veto-proof majority so it's just delaying what's going to be passed anyway.
I'm pretty sure that's the bill that will take COVID related unemployment benefits away from anyone who's on it too if I'm not mistaken?
Unless maybe they amended that part.
cosmic badge
It's the same $600 "relief" package, no changes I don't think. Though I did read that the $2000 stimulus is up for vote tomorrow?
I expect that would pass the House, but die in the Senate.
I may have misread it though, trying to find the H.R.
Looks like it might be H.R.9050 but I can't find the text anywhere.
Either that or H.R.9047
weary obsidian
Lol I thought the telling Trumpers to boycott runoff was a meme to trick the right, but the right really is running with it?
mystic ermine
no, it's a multi--level oddity
they don't trust the election, so, "no point voting if we're gonna get fucked", kinda odd that you had people telling people to move down to GA for long enough to vote and then fuck off, and such, but, you know... think it sorta like, "if the democrats want crazy leadership, let them have crazy leadership", type deals, watch them burn the world and run back crying, etc
elder portal
Welp, that sucks
Iirc nobody was hurt except the bomber
Some sysadmins had a very long day, though
mystic ermine
okay
wat
da
fuq
“I think this is a wake-up call and a warning for all of us about how vulnerable our infrastructure is, how relatively easy it is for a single individual to do this,” Frank Figliuzzi, former assistant director of counterintelligence at the FBI, told “Face The Nation.”
it's almost like the entire industry has been warning about this for literally fucking decades
cosmic badge
mystic ermine
oh god, reminds me of this joke from like years ago where somebody shoots somebody and the media is all flustered because they don't know where the place the blame
cosmic badge
Has Trump even said anything about the bomber yet? lol
I feel any respectable president would have condemned their actions immediately, regardless.
shut vine
I mean they highlight the same things when there is evidence of it it many cases regardless of identity. It annoys me regardless, I'm pretty sure it's intended to divide people.
I don't know, seems pretty soon for most officials to have commented as to their opinion of the bomber, I assume Biden has not commented?
Also kinda sad if we devolve into every official having to specifically condemn every heinous act or evil person don't you think?
cosmic badge
I don't know on what basis you'd qualify that as a devolution. I'd say it's a reasonable expectation for a country's leader.
Certainly if the act has garnered mainstream attention.
foggy fern
Mentally ill lone wolf means stochastic terrorism
They aren't officially a part of any group, no group even exists, but due to the people they watch on youtube and the chan boards they spend their time on they get a certain idea about the world and think they're in a war to preserve their way of life against... everyone
Also called the pewdiepipeline
shut vine
What does a president / incoming president-elect denouncing it actually accomplish other than stating the obvious / what everyone is thinking?
cosmic badge
Bold of you to assume that's what everyone is thinking. Clearly that's not the case.
Otherwise we wouldn't be living in such polarized times.
loud flax
ok so the US system has some cracks, but it's one of the best in the world
mystic ermine
best crack in the world
shut vine
If you don't know the answer that's fine, I just think there is zero merit in the premise of your position
loud flax
man, i didn't anticipate how that would be interpreted
cosmic badge
Mhm, if you say so. Lead by example is reason enough.
Condemning such behaviors sets a clear example.
mystic ermine
Personally, am not too sure what trump could say
idiot who forgot his tin foil had is an idiot
cosmic badge
I don't expect much from Trump either, or Biden for that matter lol
shut vine
I mean.. so the leader of a country should denounce anything that is 'bad' that becomes sensationalized by the media?
cosmic badge
But there's a clear difference in how our current leadership treats domestic terrorism.
At least in the public spotlight.
shut vine
There are several instances of him denouncing domestic terrorism
mystic ermine
personally, I really don't care what a leader has to say on something vs what they actually do on it
Like, take trump, he's denounced white supremicy so many times that I'm sick of hearing him denounce it
shut vine
Him denouncing it changed nothing, didn't accomplish anything
cosmic badge
Of course, the FBI is largely independent and will act on domestic terrorism regardless of how executive leadership publicly handles the situation.
shut vine
Didn't even convince the media he denounced it
I don't even know what happened to the notion that giving these evil people airtime actually furthers their agenda to be honest
mystic ermine
Yea, that's the thing
Trump is made to mention the proud boys and all of a sudden they're all cheering
and it's like, congrats
I think that the media these days is a huuuuge contribution to issues these days
tough cedar
social media *
cosmic badge
I disagree. The idea that giving "air time" to bad behavior having a more promotional effect is not a single-edged sword. If such behaviors are committed in alignment with rhetoric you promote, you sure as hell should condemn it,
tough cedar
not the media
mystic ermine
you think you've got all the answers and are gonna fight the system and make a better world for everybody
Do you listen to the people mentioning that your ideas are dumb, or, do you cheer because they know your name and are scared of what you stand for?
To me, normal people would be the former
issue is that many of the groups these days tend to fly towards the latter
shut vine
The media in general is an issue, social media more so
cosmic badge
Corporate media is a huge issue, for sure.
shut vine
Though that can also be attributed to people taking them at their word
cosmic badge
A good example of giving free air time and giving rise to a situation would be how corporate media handled Trump the last 4 years.
mystic ermine
See, I like trump in many aspects especially as he served as a huge massive fuckoff middle finger
there are defo parts about him that I hate, though
shut vine
They also gave him lots of free airtime during his campaign, nearly every station covered him heavily to mock him. Turns out the old saying is true.
mystic ermine
But, I think that the way the media covered him so much defo made him blow up, even when some of the crap he says is stuff which many people believe to be the case
shut vine
I don't like his personality or way of speaking. Find him pretty obnoxious.
cosmic badge
Trump ran as an anti-establishment populist and from the very outset made it clear the media was out to get him. The media made his campaign all too easy.
shut vine
The amount of lies corporate media spread about him is absolutely insane.
mystic ermine
I mean, the media can't even say that he denounced white supremacy
cosmic badge
Corporate media knew exactly what they were doing. They might not have predicted his presidency, but they certainly didn't care if he won. A controversial term equates to more controversial news, which equates to more viewership and profits.
shut vine
I know they were bad before, but his presidency has just put light on how bad they actually are.
mystic ermine
AT&T I think it was apparently already wanna get rid of CNN
cosmic badge
What it should've revealed to most people is that corporate media is a profit-driven entity. How does a news organization generate profits?
shut vine
Polarization
mystic ermine
that's the horror is that pure fact based news is hard to find
Like, Fox has heavily been pro-trump the past few years
as soon as biden gets the marker pens he needs, bar a few hosts, the place seems like a whole different venue in some aspects
mystic ermine
Yea, that's my hate of the media is that it's all opinion pieced BS
shut vine
Yeah, it'd just be like reading someones personal blog
cosmic badge
I think the same applies to social media, too.
Where do we think Twitter would be today without Trump's presidency?
Do we think it would be as big as it is?
Or Facebook
shut vine
I mean Twitter doubled in net worth over his presidency.
cosmic badge
Not at all surprising.
shut vine
Bit hard to know for certain it's just about him, I feel like that's going to be an ongoing trend if governments don't reign them in
Also don't think many governments will since they probably benefit
cosmic badge
Trump is bigger than just Trump, too. He started a global movement.
mystic ermine
am not really sure what governments can do
I mean, many saw it as a time to start raising the middle finger at politicians
cosmic badge
Trumpism permeates through Twitter and Facebook beyond just the US, which I believe strongly led to a huge portion of their growth in the past few years.
mystic ermine
only over here in the UK, people where morons and directed it at the wrong bunch of suits
not that the EU shouldn't go fuck itself
shut vine
I'd say there were two main movements that gained prominence through his presidency, due to the rise in polarization from the media
There are a lot of good things that are part of the EU system, but there are also a lot of bad things.
cosmic badge
For sure. People don't realize what they have until they lose it. EU might crumble, but something EU-like will eventually take its place somewhere down the line.
shut vine
I think if Spain follows suit like it said it would, it's possible but unlikely.
mystic ermine
france is all katy perry with it
shut vine
Yea, so is Greece and Italy.
mystic ermine
I know that pressures are mounting there around EU's treatment of migrants and their terrorist attacks they're seemingly having more often
shut vine
I think EU regulations cripple innovation and competition, and the open border thing is a bit insane.
mystic ermine
I mean, that's all regulation really does
Like, I support regulation for the aspect of protecting lives and ideally the world itself
shut vine
Also the regulations around produce are evil in my opinion.
mystic ermine
ofc, within reason, can't not have vaccines coz one person might drop dead from it type deal
But, take facebook
Why would facebook want more regulations that they have to comply with?
shut vine
Yeah I agree.. but if you look at the EU relations for pillows you'd be horrified.
mystic ermine
Oh, yea, it's because they've literally already got lawyers on standby twiddling their thumbs to make push the company to make the changes needed
shut vine
Just as an example.
mystic ermine
any company who wants to get into the art of social media is now heavily in an area of "fuuuuck that"
stuff like minimum wage increases, why are large companies supportive of that?
It's because they can take the hit, fire a few members of staff, and watch the mom & pop stores around them crumble
cosmic badge
Because consumers are supportive of it? It's always a business decision 😛
shut vine
Yeah it's because they want to end their small competitors.
cosmic badge
If a company can make a positive business decision and parade it as an ethical victory, that's like a double-win.
shut vine
Yep.
mystic ermine
That's one of the things which worry me going forward is that it's so easy to do shitty stuff and convince half the population that what you're doing is good
and they'll often willfully ignore or happily cheer on companies going out
"if you can't afford to pay your staff, why are you running a business", etc
You just doubled their outgoing staff wages
shut vine
Increasing minimum wages has a relatively undeniable correlation between it and increase in unemployment, not to say it's causation, but it makes sense if you think about it.
cosmic badge
I wouldn't doubt there's some causation, a start-up without capital obviously is going to rely on cheap labor.
shut vine
Yeah what I'm saying it's probably heavily linked. But I am not trying to be clear about what's undeniable, the correlation is undeniable, the causation is likely.. if that makes sense?
mystic ermine
I saw some good documentary a while back on like CA and their minimum wage hike, apparently thousands of like car washers basically operate underground businesses due to it being unviable for the car washes to pay them the higher wage and still be competative to the average customer
shut vine
Also think people should be paid appropriately for the value of their work.
cosmic badge
If someone consents to work for X pay, that should be fine enough. If the business is unable to attract workers at Y pay, then they'll theoretically fail or have to raise their offer.
shut vine
But not sure minimum wage increases really accomplishes that directly.
Yea I agree with that, that's a free market type approach.
mystic ermine
minimum wage really just raises the entry point to the market
It's stuff like making intern's illegal
Like, yea, you should pay for work, but, I think if somebody shows up at the door and says that they're willing to do stuff to gain experience, that's their prerogative and both parties gain
rossman did a good video on that imho
shut vine
Well we run an intern program at work in our department, about half of those who came through didn't know what they really wanted for a career and thought they'd give it a try. All of them are looking for IT careers now and have either secured a job or working on getting a bachelors/masters.
mystic ermine
I don't think that burger flipping needs to be enough to support a 3 children household type deal
cosmic badge
I don't think unpaid internships are always illegal in the US, there is criteria to determine the legality of it.
mystic ermine
I think that there defo needs to be a better push towards getting people into those sorta like skilled jobs
shut vine
Over here how they do it is they get unemployment benefits basically as an intern.
So doesn't cost the business directly in a fiscal way, and the intern still gets money to survive.
Realistically the business is actually doing a lot, training is a fairly large indirect cost.
mystic ermine
I think that the first thing governments need to do is say that "no, we're not raising the tuition loans we're handing out"
shut vine
Raising tuition loans? Not sure what you mean.. probably being dumb.
mystic ermine
make it easier for your average person to get on a course or some form of program to gain skills handy for trade
Basically, don't increase the amount that they're willing to loan out each year pretty much to go to college tuition and all that
force colleges/uni's to cut/stall their price hikes instead of letting those institutions basically be money wheels more cared about gaining currency rather than pushing people into skilled labour as they should
shut vine
Ahhh
Yeah I understand
I was a bit unsure of your overall opinion but that's much clearer now
I think the loans should realistically be limited to areas where the person is likely to be able to get a job to pay of the loan too, but not sure I trust the government to figure that out
mystic ermine
i think that there needs to be a provable rate that you can pay it off in X amount of time
shut vine
You mean based on statistics with course x, with a loan of y, it takes on average z days to repay it?
mystic ermine
pretty much, yea
foggy fern
University wasn't even supposed to be to help get a job like that
It got more specialized as knowledge expanded but the idea was to make well rounded educated men
mystic ermine
Uni == college, to me, being a brit; I think that with how important a degree is these days, it needs to be a much better option to people and I think that the current way it's treated is broken af
foggy fern
That's why you used to have to learn Latin
It was considered proper for an educated man to know Latin
It ended up changing to optimize for producing researchers in various fields then kind of turned in to trade schools teaching you what you need to do a job
It's still mostly that researcher part but people use it as a trade school so everyone goes
mystic ermine
part of it is that if you get the grades, getting a loan to go is so easy
and coming out of school, it's what everybody is doing, so you take the stupidly large loan to go to some course which may or may not have good job prospects on the other end
foggy fern
I think most jobs that require university should really just be providing training on their own but no one does that anymore, you're supposed to come to the job knowing how to do it already because they don't want to pay to train you just to have you leave for another company
And you leave for another company because that's the only way to get a raise or promotion in a lot of fields
The whole system is fucked and I don't think you can unfuck it by focusing on the schools
They're not even meant to be for what you're trying to use them for
mystic ermine
Yea, there is defo a multitude of issues with how the entire market works
shut vine
I'm pretty sure Cat is just throwing ideas out rather than suggesting he knows the ultimate answers based on what he said before
foggy fern
For example you finish Computer Science knowing linear algebra and how to write compilers and kernels but no idea how to write code meant to be worked on by others or worked on more than 3 months
But jobs require you to have a CS degree to make webapps
shut vine
Yeah CS in general needs a huge rethink.
foggy fern
No, CS is fine, it's making researchers
mystic ermine
I mean, for me, the first biggest step is to get loans under control so that uni's actually have to offer something worth the price
foggy fern
What you really wanted was a trade school that taught programming and systems design
mystic ermine
issue is that jobs want people from CS courses for programming
thing is that on my course, I learnt stuff like crazy level O notation and algo stuff
do I really need to learn that to throw together some e-commerce report generator or whatever?
foggy fern
No but you need it to come up with a new sorting algorithm, prove it's better, and write a paper on it
mystic ermine
No company wants to take you on and teach you how to program, so, CS courses are the best your average pen pushing hiring manager knows to look for
hence, people wanting to write shitty webapps for dollar go take a CS course which goes 10 miles beyond what the average person needs to do the job, and leaves a fair chunk of people with the burden of a CS course but no real understanding or inclination of how to actually write code
tough cedar
i guess that's why you get a software engineering degree rather than a computer science degree?
foggy fern
It's rare to have a school offer that but sure
Computer science is maths while software engineering is, well, engineering
So would be a better fit for teaching you how to actually make things
tough cedar
software engineering degrees are rarely offered in university?
mystic ermine
CS is more the known and flashy term thrown around
foggy fern
They might be more common than I thought, I remember it being a big deal in some news article about them back when I was finishing school
But that was also like 16 years ago
tough cedar
admittedly i don't have one but i've vaguely thought about going to a university to get one because idk that community college was enough anymore
tough cedar
def don't want to do computer science because as said, it's focused on research
mystic ermine
having proper experience also opens about as many doors these days as companies are slooowly becoming more aware that the degrees stand for shit and most good programmers are home taught to some capacity
well, most being what I've seen, no idea of true stats
tough cedar
I started learning before I started my AA so all my programming classes were super easy
mystic ermine
problem is that initial door is a bit of a fun aspect if you don't have the paper or the experience you can show
tough cedar
but i still feel like I don't know anything so having that paper would probably be good for me
mystic ermine
you're basically gonna learn more applicable aspects doing stuff on the side while at uni than you actually learn from uni
That's my biggest pro for going to uni over here in the UK is that it's basically free if you're from a poor family
mystic ermine
You can survive on the loans/grants fairly well if you're not used to splashing out for new phones and stuff when they come out, so it made it easy to earn cash on the side gaining experience that I could splash on treats and such
near glen
I just scimmed the last messages, but isn't the academic nature of CS fixed by applied CS stuff?
Like, sure, i still had lin alg, but we didn't do compiler tech and shit, we focused more on the act of programming, security, datastructure, algos, databases, patterns, planning, project management etc
In half my classes I was actively writing code (in java, python, c++, cobol, php or javascript, those were the languages we learned)
plush crypt
?ban @shy gulch Ads
red mountainBOT
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shy gulch
I'm a centrist, fuck me right? 
mystic ermine
I mean, you're assuming that uni's care to fix themselves rather than just being able to dig into a government funded money-pot
gov increases the size of the pot to allow more students to access it, uni's raise their tuition heavily defeating the intent; Not to mention, businesses generally don't care what you did in the course over here and I'd imagine in the states so long as you've got a piece of paper, if you come out being unable to use your degree as you got too much theoretical crap vs applicable crap, the uni doesn't care, they still made their buck, there's always gonna be a bunch of people lined up next year for a cert, it would take a huge massive shuffle from industries to fix that, but, they're also not really in a place where they wanna take over as then it basically falls on them to train people up, which, unless you had contracts which lock you in for a few years, which is not good for either party, is really, er...
near glen
"uni's raise their tuition heavily defeating the intent;" <--- not a thing here 😛
removing money from the equation changes everything
suddenly the actually teach stuff properly, and not just do whatever makes them the most money
mystic ermine
Not really
These are still private businesses, in the UK, the amount of tuition is basically regulated so they can only charge so much
money is only really one of the few large issues with how education and shit works
mystic ermine
Well, yea, but, now you gotta preach to half the country to privatise a system which is already a cash cow to those companies taking money out of a magical pot
foggy fern
The US used to be mostly government run free* universities
Back when the boomers went
mystic ermine
there are entire industries which are more paperwork wank than they ever needed to be
foggy fern
Education does seem to have the same problem healthcare has, most of the money goes to administrative paper pushing that is needed to get more money
Now that we have all these grants and scholarships for the students the school needs to keep track of and the school has to beg from alumni and private industry for research funding they spend a lot of time just managing all of that
Just like all the people dealing with various insurance companies and claims in healthcare
weary obsidian
Can someone please fucking punch mitch McConnell in the fucking face
Fuck that guy to all hell
He's now trying to tie 2k payments with section 230
elder portal
foggy fern
Wow some people already got their $600?
foggy fern
He's now trying to tie 2k payments with section 230
Don't forget an election fraud study group
It's just so he has a bill Republicans can safely vote on because they know it won't pass
Then they can go to GA and blame Democrats even though they weren't going to give it to you to begin with
cosmic badge
wut how have people already got their $600 😛
I have direct deposit set up, still haven't got mine.
hm, what should i buy to stimulate the economiez
foggy fern
Direct deposit started tonight
I suppose it depends on what ordering they used
I wonder why the original estimate was after the 1st then after Trump stalled it for a few days they get it done before the 1st
cosmic badge
When would the new GA senators be sworn in? I guess that would greatly increase the chances of the $2k stimulus passing
Once Mitch is no longer senate maj leader, if that happens.
foggy fern
5th
Err, wait, the election is the 5th
Not sure when they get sworn in, shouldn't be too long after that
cosmic badge
So if R's lose the Senate, we could be looking at a $2k stimulus payment before Feb? 😄
cosmic badge
F, needs a 2/3 majority? wtf
foggy fern
Not 2/3, just 60
60 votes are needed to stop a filibuster and you don't have to actually stand there to filibuster these days
cosmic badge
Telefilibuster? 😛
foggy fern
So someone just says they're doing it and then you move on to other business
Unless you can get 60 votes later that bill is in limbo forever
cosmic badge
Can't the new majority leader change the filibuster rules?
Though seems the $2k stimulus is generally popular among voters on both sides, I think without Mitch to reign in the R senators, maybe it's possible to get 60 votes?
I've seen conservatives frame it as the government giving tax money back to the people lol
And are all for it.
foggy fern
Question is how fast does right wing media ditch Trump after the 20th, that'll determine if it happens
But I think it'll be after the 20th
cosmic badge
Hm, a lot of maybes/ifs. Starts with Dems winning GA, I guess.
Mitch seems to be the biggest obstacle.
Lol /r/conservative seems to be very pro-$2000 stimulus right now
A lot of blame coming down on McConnell
foggy fern
weary obsidian
cosmic badge
Damn, dude doesn't even look like a high-risk COVID target. Shit sucks
foggy fern
Seemed like a healthy 41 year old
cosmic badge
Last tweet on his account says he was in stable condition at the hospital.
/r/Conservative is really starting to change tune lol
Is the GOP imploding? o.O
dusky raft
wouldnt shock me
the GOP was held together by trump
republicans, at least the neo conservatives are spineless sellouts
shy gulch
My theory is that the GOP is going to split up into 2 parties, the classic GOP (corporate backed), and the "trump" GOP which would push his and his supporters' ideas that would destabilize the US (such as when the republican party of texas proposed seceding from the union). If this were to happen, it would make it close to impossible for the GOP or any right-wing party to have any major political power in the US.
dusky raft
wouldnt shock me if they have done it before
cosmic badge
I think it's more likely that the GOP eventually reflects and transforms into a party that most of the right would vote for again. It might take some time, but they aren't stupid.
dusky raft
but the democrats are also in the same boat, you have the corporate neolibs and the more radical leftists
foggy fern
Texas claims no matter what you say about other states they have a right to do so because of how they entered the union
And they remind you of it every few years
shy gulch
but the democrats are also in the same boat, you have the corporate neolibs and ...
as long as the left stays mostly unified, the right would have no chance of taking major positions of office.
foggy fern
I think the left is way less unified than the right
cosmic badge
But once the GOP fractures, it would basically boil down to infighting between corporate Democrats and progressive Democrats.
foggy fern
The GOP seems to teeter back and forth between two groups, the left is a bunch of groups whose only common cause is stopping the right
cosmic badge
Right now Democrats are able to stay united on issues as long as the GOP is a threat.
dusky raft
well now that trump going out of office, I think its going to be a shitfest between the two major factions within the democrats
shy gulch
Once it becomes impossible for the right to hold major office, the dems will split apart too :(
cosmic badge
I agree, if GOP loses influence, it will devolve into factions of Democrats fighting for power amongst each other.
foggy fern
The left does have one other thing in common, when democracy and capitalism come in to conflict the left is more likely to choose democracy but the neolibs barely even do that
shy gulch
I just don't get why people align themselves with people like trump and other GOP figures, it just baffles me.
dusky raft
I still hate that capitialism is always on the chopping block when its chrony capitalism, ie, the capitalism that both democrats and republicans enforce?
smoky hedge
When you say left what do you mean there
Because democracy as a concept has rather different meanings in different ideologies
cosmic badge
Neolibs and progressives, both Democratic factions.
foggy fern
I mean the people that pick democracy over capitalism 😛
cosmic badge
Neolibs would fight for capitalism
shy gulch
I mean the people that pick democracy over capitalism 😛
and that is a good choice imo.
dusky raft
there is only thing thing I agree with progressives, big business is way to large and exploiting government, but I dont like that the solution proposed is to increase government
foggy fern
They push crony capitalism but support civil rights legislation and fighting against climate change
It's a difference of degree, not of kind, with the rest of the left
smoky hedge
Progressive is a dumb term tbh
There are “left” ideologies that are against government, same on the right
cosmic badge
Those are just the words in the context of American politics.
You have corporate(neoliberal) Democrats who favor more free-market capitalism and "progressive" Democrats who favor more social democracy.
smoky hedge
To be fair, I also think the way American politics works is dumb 😛
foggy fern
That's why I like the democracy vs capitalism way of explaining it. You can be all different kinds of left or right but still match that definition
Another way to look at it would be to say that the right prefers hierarchies
smoky hedge
But in a sense, more government is less democracy
shy gulch
But in a sense, more government is less democracy
well, wouldn't it give people more power with their vote and more things to vote for?
if you think about it
smoky hedge
Well, I wouldn’t consider the US a true democracy
foggy fern
Assuming fair and representative elections more government means more democracy
dusky raft
No country is a true democracy...
foggy fern
It's not the only way to get more democracy though
dusky raft
or should I say pure democracy
cosmic badge
I guess you could say Switzerland is pretty close.
foggy fern
You can have less government but with a small set of strict rules
cosmic badge
They have a system of direct democracy.
shy gulch
No country is a true democracy...
unless if we all had chips in our brains to subconsciously vote on everything. 🤔
dusky raft
uh, no
shy gulch
like we wouldn't need politicians
cosmic badge
But almost everywhere else uses representative democracy for everything.
dusky raft
im all set to be assimilated into the collective
foggy fern
unless if we all had chips in our brains to subconsciously vote on everything. �...
Coming soon from Moderna?
mystic ermine
brb, creating a tin-foil hat business
cosmic badge
Many US states have highly democratic processes as well, such as propositions for amending their constitution.
smoky hedge
The only way electoralism can be considered even close to a democracy, is if it’s entirely proportional, and elected officials state their views upon election and are then legally bound by those views
However, this then creates a further problem, of people who don’t have their views represented are not able to participate
So basically - electoralism cannot lead to a true democracy
foggy fern
This is a way too literal take on a philosophical argument
dusky raft
the problem with a true/pure democracy is that it can invoke chaos much faster
cosmic badge
In general yes, we have a representative democracy but it's functionally good enough.
Well, I'd argue that the federal government's representative democracy actually isn't good enough.
shy gulch
In general yes, we have a representative democracy but it's functionally good en...
it's the people in office that are the problem :(
cosmic badge
The fact that 1 House member represents approx 700,000 people is flawed.
smoky hedge
But unless the government is held to do what the people want, adding more government is inherently not increasing democracy - its increasing the power of the government. Eg, making it more authoritarian
dusky raft
@shy gulch this is kind of why I think there should be disincentives to career politics
cosmic badge
That's not a good democracy.
foggy fern
Term limits on Congress just mean the lobbyists run everything because the politicians don't know what they're doing
shy gulch
ok, i gtg. It was fun talking politics with you guys :)
dusky raft
@foggy fern fuck term limits, do service limits
cosmic badge
How do you solve lobbying when it's seemingly both good and bad 😛
dusky raft
plus the point is moot with lobbyists
foggy fern
The right to petition your government is pretty important
smoky hedge
The problem with lobbying is money, not the ability to petition the government
dusky raft
anyone can be bought
cosmic badge
Overturn Citizens United? 😛
dusky raft
but yeah, I think what should happen is that there should be a service limit of 20 years, any elected position and high ranking executive position
excluding military
cosmic badge
Corporations are people. Money is speech. At least according to SCOTUS
dusky raft
the supreme court is such a mess
foggy fern
TIL Edmund Burke was against giving Benedict Arnold any position of leadership in England
So at least he did one good thing
shy gulch
foggy fern
(Burke is the "father of modern conservatism")
Modern conservatism being the marriage of conservatism and capitalism, before that conservatism meant supporting monarchies
smoky hedge
To be fair, conservativism at its very core is partially about preventing major changes
Capitalists at the time would’ve been considered progressive
cosmic badge
Historically it's been about conservation of social traditions.
So yeah, just a "whatever is tradition at the time" kind of thing.
foggy fern
conservatism: a reactionary politics that has, at best, mixed feelings about democracy
dusky raft
conservatives are always behind the train when it comes to social/economic changes, either good or bad.
smoky hedge
Yeah, and monarchism was the big tradition so they didn’t want to move away
foggy fern
Burke wrote about the French Revolution and his argument wasn't that monarchies and other hierarchies are bad, it's that France had bad people at the top
cosmic badge
Could describe it as a (healthy?) fear of drastic change.
foggy fern
Ideally conflict/war would determine who was best to be on top but failing that capitalism would work
Even better, capitalism meant the people with all the existing money and power got a head start because in capitalism how much money you have determines your worth to society
smoky hedge
And that’s how neoliberalism started 😛
smoky hedge
Neoliberalism was eventually set in motion by the book “The Road to Serfdom”
foggy fern
neoliberalism is what you get when you strip the reactionary part off
smoky hedge
Which went over that capitalism at its current rate would lead to a failed society, due to the way it valued people
Basically - that money and power being unrestrained would lead to a collapse of society (or Serfdom, as they put it)
dusky raft
if we had a well regulated capitalist society that didnt bend the knee to government or didnt snuggle up to government, we wouldnt be having so many issues with big business that we have now.
foggy fern
and I want a pony
cosmic badge
We'd probably spend an eternity arguing about what "well regulated" means.
foggy fern
well regulated should mean as few regulations as you can get away with that are strictly and harshly enforced
dusky raft
@foggy fern fuck it, should have went with vermin supreme.
smoky hedge
I don't think that statement necessarily makes sense. Companies are inherently motivated by profits, so they will do what it takes to increase those profits. You can't regulate away the motivations of a company
dusky raft
foggy fern
Instead we have useful regulations made so convoluted with various exceptions and special cases that you need a team of lawyers to figure them out and regulations that pretend to be that first kind but are really just meant to kick the ladder out behind the incumbents
dusky raft
Some of the main themes of Vermin Supreme's campaigns are instituting a mandatory tooth brushing law, giving every American a free pony, using zombies for renewable energy, zombie apocalypse awareness, and time travel research.
man, some very odd people
but yeah
just odd regulations that make it harder for businesses to start up
and keep other businesses in place
its why amazon welcomed regulations with open arms
they could afford the hit
GDPR was also a bandaid on a much larger problem
foggy fern
It's a hard problem though because the first entrants to a new market have zero regulations and then we learn all the ways they can do horrible things and regulate them away but those companies already got powerful from doing those things so can squeeze out newcomers that can't abuse the system anymore
cosmic badge
Clearly the only solution to a successful political system is a benevolent dictatorship by an immortal leader!
smoky hedge
Regulation is literally used as a tool to further neoliberalist goals
Get rid of profit motives, and regulation is no longer needed 🙂
shy gulch
^
foggy fern
If we used antitrust law like we were supposed to this would be less a problem
cosmic badge
This ain't Star Trek, we don't have replicators 😛
smoky hedge
You don't need replicators tho
foggy fern
Too dominant in a market? You get to be broken up now
Doesn't matter if you abuse your position in any overt way or not, monopolies are not ideal
Monopolies are only ideal in a planned economy
dusky raft
in which the monopoly is government
smoky hedge
I'd argue that monopolies are ideal in an anarchist society too
foggy fern
The Sherman Act doesn't say only bad monopolies are illegal, it says they all are
shy gulch
Too dominant in a market? You get to be broken up now
we wouldn't have that issue in a social democracy. If there was no private ownership of industry and people had a say and part in their industry they work in.
smoky hedge
A social democracy has private ownership
foggy fern
That's democratic socialism
shy gulch
A social democracy has private ownership
or whatever it's called, I never remember the name
shy gulch
That's democratic socialism
that is the one
foggy fern
Which Bernie confusingly uses to mean social democracy
cosmic badge
Yeah Americans confuse social democracy and democratic socialism.
shy gulch
we wouldn't have that issue in a social democracy. If there was no private owner...
There would be no private ownership of industry impeding on market forces and such.
cosmic badge
Most of Europe is socdem, that's what they aspire to.
dusky raft
and if you mean if people had a say by jailing people like most communist nations, then yes, its not an issue
there is no issue when the problem never was said to exist
shy gulch
and if you mean if people had a say by jailing people like most communist nation...
I mean that people, ya know, voted on stuff where they worked, instead of having big rich dudes and shareholders deciding everything
smoky hedge
solution: worker-owned cooperatives 🙂
shy gulch
solution: worker-owned cooperatives 🙂
YESS
smoky hedge
Like the entire need for regulation flies out the window in an anarcho-syndicalist society
cosmic badge
lol, anarcho syndicalism, getting Monty Python vibes
smoky hedge
😦
dusky raft
I dont understand how voting at work means better productivity, it leads to stagnation
smoky hedge
how does it lead to stagnation?
cosmic badge
shy gulch
I dont understand how voting at work means better productivity, it leads to stag...
it leads to people being actually invested in their work place
dusky raft
your forgetting the point, what if I brought to the table to raise wages?
smoky hedge
You'd already be earning the correct amount based on labour
shy gulch
^
smoky hedge
You'd increase wages by increasing productivity
But that's assuming a money-based system anyway
shy gulch
@smoky hedge you took the words right out of my mouth lmao
dusky raft
but what if wages are needed to depend based on family? would a persons wage increase due to that?
shy gulch
good question
foggy fern
People don't think like that, not sure if they ever did or if that was just old movies and TV shows that promoted it
smoky hedge
In an anarcho-syndicalist society, there would ideally not be "money". Everyone in the commune would be working for the betterment of everyone
foggy fern
Used to be a married man made more because he was supporting his family, everyone knew it, and everyone was okay with it
smoky hedge
But yes - a family would receive more than a single person, because there are more people