oh, you're faster than y, guess you're in the mens, etc
#politics
mystic ermine
There is no clean solution here, and even with a 3rd catagory it's gonna be unfair to others
cosmic badge
You do kind of see that with boxing weight classes, but even boxing doesn't mix the sexes to my knowledge π
mystic ermine
Yea, they don't
professional wresting as a whole afaik generally doesn't mix sexes
cosmic badge
Makes sense because men have considerably more upper body strength than women. That's just a biological fact.
I think maybe a good starting point though would be differentiating between muscle mass. The stage of life at which you start hormone therapy will greatly affect this outcome.
If you've lived most of your life with male levels of testosterone and then start hormone therapy, clearly you shouldn't be competing in women's sports.
mystic ermine
Yea, there's likely some usable metrics to be able to pull into defining better groups
Issue is is defining those ranges and how do you deal with inside of existing sports, e.g. those already purely split by gender, do we encourage those to deeper split up? etc
cosmic badge
This could have the positive effect of mixing the sexes in future sports, too. If we can more accurately define these parameters, why shouldn't men and women be able to compete with each other in sports?
mystic ermine
depends on what the science says, imho
if we can purely catagorise stuff into numbers which can be used for grouping/catagorizing, I got nothing against that
if a women or a mans got a fair chance to kick each others ass, what's the harm π€·ββοΈ
tardy oar
yeah it's all about fair chance
restive seal
Once you start breaking up into tiers though, and you have multiple groups, how many groups are the ones you define as worth big events, who's going to watch which groups, and how do you balance out the groups to ensure women are still equally represented?
mystic ermine
Well, yea, that's part of it
While I'd personally encourage it, I don't think it should be applied to all venues, etc
Like, I wouldn't want womens soccer players on a male soccer team
That's just gonna be humilating for the guys
tardy oar
yeah and then you could run into issue where they get too good for their specific group
restive seal
That's just gonna be humilating for the guys
wut
mystic ermine
flashback to the days when you could go a full match without some grown ass guy on the floor crying
I'm joking ;P
restive seal
So if that's a joke what's the non-joking explanation for not applying it to everything?
mystic ermine
I'm just not sure if we should entirely shake up existing sport establishments, etc
tardy oar
cat has a trauma
mystic ermine
e.g. the olympics
cosmic badge
To be fair, splitting sports by sexes without any further classification also lacks the nuance we're advocating for here.
mystic ermine
if we start splitting stuff up too far, we're gonna end up with too much dilution of sports, etc
cosmic badge
Sex alone isn't the best classifier either.
restive seal
Tradition/conservatism doesn't feel like a valid reason to me.
cosmic badge
If we truly want to see who is the "best" given a fair playing field, we should explore those nuances for better classifications.
tardy oar
basically that's a difficult topic
cosmic badge
I will say regarding the bill though, withholding federal funding because a school decides to allow it, is an extreme response. For that I will say it's a stupid bill.
There has to be better ways to confront that.
mystic ermine
Withholding funding is very err, but, I'm not really sure what else they have the power to do there
OR ELSE!
cosmic badge
Somehow hold the decision-maker accountable without punishing every student.
mystic ermine
easier said than done afaik due to how the entire system works
gov doesn't really have the means to interfere inside of a school, which is generally why these types of bills generally hold funding as hostage
Pretty shitty, but, I don't want governments to have too much control over schools either :/
cosmic badge
Yeah if it happens I think it would have to happen at the state level.
Best the federal government can do is withhold funding, probably.
mystic ermine
yea, as I said, I'm pretty sure that's pretty much their only real option
I'm only so well versed in the US system
God knows why I wanna eventually move over there if I ever get the shot
cosmic badge
Yeah, public schools are the domain of the state, AFAIK.
They just receive federal benefits.
dusky raft
education varies wildly depending on the state, such as the bible belt states adding in religion into classes
mystic ermine
We have religion as mandatory subject over here until you reach a certain age where you pick your focus topics and fuck off
cosmic badge
I just think it's sad that she believes this is an important enough issue that it's worth punishing even the people she's claiming to protect with the bill.
It's high school sports π
mystic ermine
which leads onto stuff like scolarships, etc
cosmic badge
"Your school supervisor did a stupid thing, so we're gonna protect you... by withholding your school's funding so you have less resources to get the education you deserve."
Is how it reads to me, mostly.
dusky raft
I said fuck college because its not worth the debt
mystic ermine
I mean, yea, it's a stupid way to go about it
The issue is that nobody is willing to address any of these nuances and any discussion of it is generally taboo
cosmic badge
Yeah it's such a politically charged topic...
We haven't even gotten past the phase of acceptance yet. Trans people have to get that first before we can even talk about this other stuff.
mystic ermine
part of the thing imho is the massive divide on the subject which means that even honest conversations can suddently hurl into a war of insults
I think that's the biggest issue with politics in general these days is that people are hard set on their views and that's where they stand
We're all like that in some ways
dusky raft
yeah, I'm willing to engage in a conversation, but everytime transgender topics appears, everything seems to be shot down
mystic ermine
Personally, I just add a bit of "does it affect me-ism"
Does it affect me that somebody is trans? do it affect me that somebody is gay? etc
dusky raft
Even my views of treating mental illnesses before resorting to transgender treatment falls on deaf ears
mystic ermine
I will stand there for my friends and stuff I believe in, but, I'm not going to argue against your rights or ability to transition because why does it impact me?
dusky raft
I dont really care what people do to their bodies, but I end up confused when a men->women trans person pulls the straight white male card and says I am suppressing them
usually when the suppression cards come out, I think there is more issues in the head than conforming to the opposite gender
mystic ermine
part of the thing is that many people see discussions as a blatent attack on their rights or what have you
and, that's a really dangerous place to be
tardy oar
completely agree with that
dusky raft
Well what rights are being denied?
tardy oar
it's either you agree with them or you attack them
mystic ermine
You disagree that trans-women should be allowed to compete in womens sports, thus you're transphobic, and you must believe that people should not be able to transition or should have 0 rights to protect them, etc, etc
dusky raft
While I dont think that hormone treatment should be denied, but I do think there should be a strong emphasis on mental health services and making hormone treatment as the last thing for treatment
Something has caused said person to feel insecure of their body and outside influences should be looked at
mystic ermine
100%, the issue is where do you draw the line, for some people it's just natural that they don't feel like they're who they should be
I've lived through that entire "i'm not who i am" feeling, and it's horrible, I'm in a better place now that I ever was, but it's such a harrowing and hollowing feeling
cosmic badge
Out of regret, people have detransitioned, we should look more at the reasons there and do what we can to prevent people from doing something they might regret, for sure.
brazen thistle
i think we've all been in that place at some point
mystic ermine
100%
part of my concern with the entire thing is that detransitioning is such a taboo subject that many people entering into the idea of transitioning do not really hear about it
dusky raft
I suffered from extreme anxiety during the early stages of covid, and felt so phased out. Before then I just moved and went through a horrible warehouse job
that took its toll
cosmic badge
That's why I think in the case of minors, it's important to consider the consent argument.
mystic ermine
Part of my fear of minors is the stories where it's pushed as some boy wanted a doll or a to wear a dress one day and now they're practically being pushed to grow up as a girl or whatever
If that's just misrepresnetation of the story, fuck 'em, but, if that's happening, I dread to think of the impact that's going to have on children
cosmic badge
Possibly their "progressive" parents misreading the situation.
mystic ermine
yea :/
It's like smacking your children
I don't condone violence against children, but, I think anybody who grew up with that style of parenting knows the deal of "I ain't gonna do that coz I don't want my ass whopped"
dusky raft
Nevermind we are brought up with the idea of this being normalized, and the idea of lifetime dependence on hormone treatments just doesnt sound appealing
cosmic badge
I got spanked, I don't hate my dad for it though lol
mystic ermine
before I left my family, my youngest brother was the only person who was raised like that, and literally the stupidest things become so overblown because there's no fear
cosmic badge
Not saying it's the right thing to do, but also not saying it didn't work. π
mystic ermine
Yea, that's the thing
There is no real understanding of how to teach children right from wrong, and so children grow up without that understanding and in general just become shits
if I ever broke something of mine by wizzing it across the room coz I lost, I'd never get a controlled replaced or whatever
my brother was literally going through a headset every month or two because it was the first reaction to losing or anything
dusky raft
Oh I took care of my stuff because my family could never afford replacements
mystic ermine
And, worse case is that it's gotta go without a headset for a week, not like he'd get a red ass for his attitude and had to put up without for longer
Nor could my family, and that was honestly part of the thing that pissed me off the most, ngl
dusky raft
its also how I got into repairing devices also, if something broke, I attempt to fix it
mystic ermine
I remember repairing a flatscreen TV for like the cost of a capacitor
shut vine
Let me answer your question with a question. Is there any reason a child should be allowed to have their eyes removed without parent consent or a doctor saying it's a vital procedure for them to live?
gritty robin
Let me answer your question with a question. Is there any reason a child should ...
But it is with the parents consent, as well as the child consent, what are you gonna do if the child and the parent both want this?
shut vine
The article you linked did not say that, and my understanding of the ruling was the parents had to give consent.
gritty robin
I mean whether its fucked or not is irrelevant, both parties want this
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
mystic ermine
I don't think that parents should have any form of say in the matter outside of determining MH factors
shut vine
MH?
mystic ermine
especially not with the ultra-progressive BS going on these days
mental health
It really goes both ways, tbqh
You have the parents who their child wants to wear a dress once and all of a sudden they're trans and gotta go through the whole upbringing/whatever that way
and you got the parents who would sooner see their child dangling from a noose than come out trans
shut vine
I think parents should have to give consent in life altering procedures that potentially have huge negative effects, but so should the child, and the doctor can't obviously do a procedure that breaks the Hippocratic oath.
mystic ermine
The issue is, where do you draw the line?
"Do you believe in santa?"
At what point is a child capable of knowing that they're trans and in a position to consent to life altering medicine/treatments?
shut vine
Well that's true. There are legal methods for children to gain power of attorney over themselves though.
That's the difficult question, how do you reasonably ascertain they can give informed consent?
Either they can for all medical procedures that have potentially negative life altering consequences or they can for none, in my opinion.
mystic ermine
The issue is that are we sure that we should be rushing people into this type of stuff?
shut vine
The other difficulty is there is the window of opportunity that exists too.
So all round it's a difficult situation.
mystic ermine
It's a mixed bag, waiting lists are too long, and doctors are basically expected from people seeking treatment and quotas to whip people through the system as much as possible
How many people in here can say that as a teenager they didn't have issues with feeling lonely or lost at times? Who can't say that they didn't have moments where they had no idea who they where or what they where doing? etc
cosmic badge
Parents shouldn't be immediately indulging every wild thought their child has. There needs to be some barriers.
mystic ermine
The issue with the modern world is that we're so quick to shove labels on typical behavior and teenager issues that we've all faced, often out of fear of "we don't want them to suffer what we did", that we try to explain all these issues away with, maybe you're trans, maybe you're gay, maybe you're asexual, pansexual, bi, blah blah blah
shut vine
I completely agree Byteflux.
cosmic badge
If you can demonstrate, ideally through a mental health professional that this is the right course of action, then sure.
mystic ermine
all it does is create this environment where one simple thought or doubt can end up being spread so far out that it's scary
shut vine
Children have to be taught there are barriers by their parents too, otherwise when they get into the real world they will get a shock.
mystic ermine
I wanna raise children in the future, but, this shit is worrying
cosmic badge
Gender dysphoria can be diagnosed by a psychiatric professional, but not all trans people experience gender dysphoria either.
mystic ermine
the issue is finding the balance between safe-guards and being able to offer treatment to those that need it
And, that's a whole nuanced topic and entirely different between person to person
shut vine
The Australian school system has been teaching kids as young as 11 about this stuff (educating them on what transgender-ism is, that there are procedures, how to know if you are) under the guise of a program called "Safe Schools". There is an element of anti-bullying and that's what it's marketed as, but they don't tell the parents about the majority of what is taught to their kids.
Additionally if asked, they flat out lie. It took some kids secretly recording it and showing their parents for it all to come out.
Which, who couldn't see that potential outcome when operating something like this in this day and age.
cosmic badge
I don't know the circumstances there, but as Cat mentioned, there is a problem with ultra-progressivism and it exists within parenting too.
shut vine
Yeah, the program was spearheaded by known progressive activists, they probably fit the category of ultra-progressive.
cosmic badge
There needs to be room for discussion that not every child exhibiting what seems like gender dysphoria or gender identity confusion are inherently that way.
shut vine
I gave you the cliff notes, but I think that any program/class where schools are not willing to give parents information on what is being taught is sketchy.
cosmic badge
The fact that some trans people do detransition seem to reinforce the importance of recognizing that.
shut vine
As far as I am aware, there is a severe lack of evidence to suggest the mental well-being improves after transitioning (statistically, not anecdotally).
mystic ermine
part of the issue is that the studies into this as a whole are generally nuanced
I was reading a while ago that there was a first ever study into something, I forgot the exacts but it was scary, sorta like around young people suffering from GD and how many actually had issues into/past their teens, etc
shut vine
Obviously there are instances, but as a whole most research I've seen (and I take all this with a grain of salt, due to psychological studies falling into the category of being extremely prone to p-hacking) suggests there is a short term change but the long term is no different.
Yeah, don't assume because a study was conducted that it is evidence of anything.
Scientists only get "interesting" results published.
Well generally speaking.
There's a huge incentive for them to start with a theory and try to prove it.
cosmic badge
Epidemiology is just observing correlations, nothing more. It's not like you can conduct clinical trials on a lot of mental health issues.
shut vine
Correct.
Purely based on statistical math, I think the number is 35% of all studies are likely to be incorrect. Studies (lol) suggest epidemiology is much higher than that.
cosmic badge
I'm guessing because epidemiology is mostly based on observation and population studies, ripe for cherry-picking.
mystic ermine
Yea, I mean, our entire day to day diet is based on that whole premise, and that got us far...
cosmic badge
But epidemiology also fills an ethical gap, obviously we can't just tell people to smoke cigarettes so we can study the health consequences of smoking.
So I understand the need/benefit of it.
shut vine
Salt is a perfect example.
mystic ermine
The problem is that the entire discussion is politically charged, and especially when you have. people on one side where just, literally, no. and people where any questions on the subject are deemed as harmful and destructive, it create this entire realm of uncharted hell
as I said, even mentioning that people detransition in some areas is literally the worse
shut vine
The salt studies correlating to heart attacks information is based on a single metric, and the entire diet is not considered.
No other metric including weight was considered.
mystic ermine
And, in part, I don't think that treatment for GD is generally gonna fix GD, It's just gonna place you into a more comfortable position, potentially
cosmic badge
"Look, all these people had these things in common with this one pronounced outcome! Let's ignore every other variable, though."
mystic ermine
I have doubts that it's magically going to quell any form of feeling that you don't belong in the skin you're in, especially as treatment is months and years into getting the results people dream of, etc
shut vine
Yeah, that's a difficult one, I think it has a potential to help a few of those affected. But I don't think generally it will.
I think most need (and I don't say this in a pejorative way) psychological help, not medical help.
cosmic badge
I don't know about in other countries, but in the US, mental health is not given the attention it deserves for sure.
mystic ermine
not over here in the UK either
shut vine
Yeah I don't think so either.
In Australia I can go to my doctor and say I need a psychologist, and get 20? free sessions a year.
mystic ermine
The MH system over here is so fucking backwards
treatment is free where they have the capacity given the whole NHS
shut vine
I think there are provisions if the psychologist thinks it's important I get more too.
mystic ermine
The issue is that capacity is meh, and the entire system is so backwards; it's often split into stuff like age groups, etc, if you have MH issues and you've turned 25, you could potentially have to wait months to see somebody that by the time you get help, you're being tossed out for the next age catagory of offerings, etc
I tried seeking help when I was like 20ish
shut vine
America's medical system in theory (provided the collusion between pharmaceutical, medical, and insurance was not happening) makes medical and pharmaceutical costs really low. It doesn't do much for psychological though.
mystic ermine
I got tossed around so many different groups and people that I was just literally done with it, I couldn't stand being thrown around all over the place anymore
shut vine
Yeah that sucks. From anecdotal evidence of the 2 people I've heard received the free help here, it was pretty good.
Psychology is a bit of a shit show in general though, it's very hard to know if the person who's supposed to be helping you is good or not until it's too late.
Unless they're utterly horrible, of course.
cosmic badge
Some are just flat out dismissive of your situation, especially in cases where they find out you've used mind-altering substances lol
"Oh, well there's your problem"
shut vine
Yeah they'd fit into the utterly horrible category.
cosmic badge
It's led to a lot of people who see mental health professionals preferring to hide their history of substance (ab)use.
Imagine that, a mental health culture that encourages patients to hide the symptoms of their mental health issues from the very professionals that are supposed to be helping them, for fear of being dismissed.
For example, even with an ADHD diagnosis, if a psychiatrist finds out you have a history of cannabis use, they often don't want you as a patient.
mystic ermine
part of the thing that's scary these days is how stuff like cannabis is just, not understood, and even research of it is such a ballache that we're so far behind on it
use in the UK is illegal unless you get a license which is a massive ballache and literal last resort for issues like seizures
Meanwhile, we're literally one of the biggest exporters of medical marijuana
cosmic badge
I'm sure someone lobbied heavily for the privilege to grow and sell, probably pharma if I'm guessing π
mystic ermine
the most annoying thing is all the anecdotal evidence of how well it works for some conditions, my best mate does nooooot respond well to opiod pain killers, like, if she has one she's literally in bed and hurling all day, and most other stuff just does not work, cannabis is the only thing she's tried that's helped which doesn't have huge ass side effects
We had her mother over once and she really needed to smoke as her condition is such hell that she was in agony, asked her mother if she wanted to try it and she did, said her arthritis no longer was hurting to the point that we got her some cbd cream
cosmic badge
Yeah, I don't think it should really be the first line of treatment, but it would be difficult to argue that it's more open to abuse than opioids lol
Personally I used to consume quite a bit, too much. I didn't like my relationship with it, so I stopped. It's not that easy for everyone, sure, but this would've been a much different situation if I was hooked on opioids.
mystic ermine
I'm conflicted on stuff like canabis, I use it because it helps with me get stuff done daily as it's the only thing which seems to help ease of my headaches some days
but, I hate smoking it all the time
I think that it defo needs to be more open of an option than it is, but, there defo needs to be a lot more research into all of the magical medical issues that it's supposidly helped treat
cosmic badge
Certainly it shouldn't be as stigmatized as it is now, but it's also not as innocent as "progressives" would have you believe.
mystic ermine
My first joint was when I was like 22, 23
My father was the only person in my life who I knew who smoked, him (mid 30's) and his mid-late 20's friends from around the block, he was a couch surfer as we called him,my mother had told him to get a job for years and move out, but, that happened as much as the hallway corridors got painted (literally years un-painted and un-papered), the thought of living like that just scared me off it so much
cosmic badge
Yeah some people just can't moderate themselves. It can happen with any substance, even cannabis.
You eventually reach this critical point where you are just constantly living in an unmotivated state.
If you're like me and you have ADHD, I recommend stay far the fuck away from cannabis. It's ADHD's worst enemy. It's not good for your brain's neurochemistry.
cosmic badge
Between the Pfizer vaccine doses we have, taking booster shots into consideration, we'll have enough to vaccinate half the population.
tough cedar
are there any left
cosmic badge
I'd almost feel a bit silly saying "Yep, we all knew this is what was going to happen" -- but so many delusional conservatives actually thought this had merit lol.
Welp, time to go read r/Conservative for luls
Yep, as expected, denied for lack of standing.
I kind of hope this rejection has eroded Trumpers' confidence in any future elections, they just give up. Georgia runoffs, let's go! π
dusky raft
oh boy, alex jones is live on youtube
foggy fern
That one is only going to large cities, basically
Distribution and storage is too much of a PITA to even go out to cities of like 100,000
Huh, I thought dry ice wasn't cold enough to maintain this vaccine
It needs -80C and that's colder than dry ice
(melting point of CO2 is -56.6C)
shut vine
SCOTUS rejected Texas btw
restive seal
Alright, Trump supporters of Paper, where's the goalpost moving to now?
Yep, quoting myself wondering where the goalpost is now π
near glen
Huh, I thought dry ice wasn't cold enough to maintain this vaccine
Iirc, if it leaves -80, it's good for 5 days or so. So transporting it in dry ice is ok, just can't long term store it
foggy fern
That article is talking like dry ice is fine so long as it gets back into a freezer in a month
I guess they get the dry ice really cold using the same freezers then the shipping containers are really good quality dewars
They can maintain the vaccine for a month and allow the container to be opened twice a day for a minute or less
brisk cradle
Awful VA secretary teams up with awful GOP hotshot to do awful things to a sexually assaulted veteran, I've seen this anime before https://www.newsweek.com/rep-dan-crenshaw-linked-smear-campaign-female-vet-led-va-secretary-watchdog-says-1553928?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1607629404
mystic ermine
nOt ALl dEMoCraTs
shy gulch
trump goes down again https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-trump-loses-wisconsin-lawsuit-in-latest-legal-defeat/
brisk cradle
The hijinks they tried to pull in Georgia were hilarious but sad. We're lucky that our GOP governor and secretary of state for once decided to stop sucking his dick and tell him he lost and there's nothing he can do about it.
shy gulch
Even though I'm not American I can't wait to see what the next 4 years have in stock
brisk cradle
Less insanity from the White House because an adult is in charge. Expect Republicans to freak out about how America is now socialist despite the fact that Biden is a committed neoliberal.
mystic ermine
I mean, he's already ignoring BLM, so, he's got that going for him
brisk cradle
π
mystic ermine
shy gulch
did they view the requests at least or just outright ignore it
dusky raft
lol. 10/10, BLM was just used by the democrats
faint radish
Referencing the Dr. Jill Biden story for a second, I believe it would be illegal for her to call herself that in Germany? Did I get that right?
Or was that recently changed... I canβt find solid info
shut vine
Yeah, in the US there is a strange quirk where you can call yourself a doctor legally, but not 'nurse'.
mystic ermine
It's an honorific over here depending on your degrees
Not really something you hear people use outside of formalities
opal moat
Referencing the Dr. Jill Biden story for a second, I believe it would be illegal...
Why not? I.g. you get a doctor title by writing a long ass essay about something and then the University gives it to you. If you are an actual medical doctor, the title is Dr. med.
mystic ermine
germany uses different honorifics
brisk cradle
https://twitter.com/SteveHofstetter/status/1329865460364566528
Canada saw that America was a joke so they annexed the Upper Peninsula of Michigan for a meme
That would be news to the governor of Michigan.
(I know it's an old tweet, but you gotta love it when bad maps intersect politics.)
foggy fern
I thought Germany also had Doctor as an honorific but required you to get your PhD (or equivalent) from an EU university to use the title
elder portal
I have to admit I thought about doing that myself
Looks like my working theory was right, though
The ideas don't matter, it's just about who says them
foggy fern
People do the same thing by claiming Trump quotes are from Obama and such
elder portal
Trump often says things that, when contextualized, give you an idea of where he stands on a bigger picture
The tweets themselves are innocent but provide no ideas in and of themselves and are instead intended to be taken in context
The tweet from Bernie provides a clear idea and is "self-contained"
For example, many of Trump's tweets recently were about the election. Without context, you could bring his "I won!" tweets over to Obama or Biden and you would "fool" a lot of people. Taken in context, however, they're disgraceful at best. This is what often happens with those, just a bit more subtle
The tweet by Bernie is very clearly an extremely far-left idea
And undermines what Trump has been saying or doing
I do agree with Bernie's tweet, though. The GOP's original stance on giving people money through the pandemic has been to let people "pull themselves up by the bootstraps", although that's shifted somewhat recently as more people have been put out of work
near glen
I still love germanies concept of short time working. If company doesn't have enough work because of outside influences, it can apply for short time working and company can reduce work time (and thus wage), down to 0 if needed. Gov will pay 87% of missed wage (was 60% before this pandemic iirc, we highered it because of how long this goes)
The idea is that nobody looses his job, which is a pro for both workers and companies, since they don't need to relearn ppl, and gov profits too because they don't need to pay unemployment for once, and they also profit long term since economy revives itself much faster, so easier to tax later to make up for the losses
Got us thru quite a few crysis this century
mystic ermine
something like that sounds nice, especially as given how it stands a lot of companies are basically forced to close their doors and are worried about how they're gonna pay staff and if they're even gonna be there when the place starts re-opening
near glen
It's just hella expensive
And like, ontop of that, we also give free loans to company so that they can cover running costs like rent and shit
Basically everything we deem nessasary so save our economy so we can properly restart next year
mystic ermine
See, we had a furlough thing to help cover costs to employers, but it was more just for people who where at risk or something and had to isolate and such iirc, sorta like a "if you don't fire them, we'll pay you" type deal
Also some renting stuff too
near glen
It's gonna be like 2009 after the global finance crisis. Europe's economy will be down for years while we are the only one recovering quickly
mystic ermine
Apparently the states had some loan or grant stuff too, but, erm... rossman did a video on that iirc
near glen
The thing that benefitted us is that these systems have been in place
Everybody knows how they work and how you can invoke them and shit
mystic ermine
no idea, didn't read the article coz not doing the survey, so, no idea if it says in there
near glen
Yeah no new deadline
Nice
They just agree to go the extra mile
Which doesn't change the fact that a no deal brexit automatically applies in two weeks
Current deadline was so that there is enough time to ratify a deal
So basically, deadline has passed, they still talking, nobody knows why
mystic ermine
last I knew is that they still wanted the good of the EU but not some of the cons of that
arctic tangle
It is the largest single market in the world and it is only fair that competitors to our own enterprises face the same conditions in our own market, but this is not to say that we would require the UK to follow us every time we decide to raise our level of ambition, for example in the environmental field; they would remain free - sovereign, if you wish - to decide what they want to do. We would simply adapt the conditions for access to our market accordingly, and this would apply vice versa.
It seems like our negotiations with the EU are: 1) blocking them access to our EEZ waters, and 2) demanding special access to the Single Market without conforming to its rules.
plush crypt
just join schengen already smh .
arctic tangle
That probably wouldn't be seen favourably by the British people, immigration was after all the single biggest issue with Brexit. (Some will try to argue it was actually about sovereignty, but that's pretty much the same argument as: the US Civil War was about states' rights.)
dusky raft
There have been issues with an ever expanding EU, mainly in regards to who controls what. I find the EU is willing to punish the UK for leaving just utterly stupid
This leaves even more of a divide in the rift as towards who dare oppose the EU
cosmic badge
How is the EU punishing the UK? From my understanding they want the UK to abide by the same rules as the rest of the EU if they want access to the single market.
The UK knew this too when deciding whether to leave. It was predicted well in advance. Now they're all surprise pikachu about it lol
shut vine
Literally part of the agreement, the EU wants would give them legal right to immediately punish UK if they decided not to implement new laws the EU signs into their charter.
cosmic badge
Cool, so the UK can take their newfound "sovereignty" and take their business elsewhere.
Seems like an easy choice if they feel so strongly about it.
shut vine
No, I mean, UK exists, EU signs a new law into their charter, if UK does not implement it to, they are fined by EU
It's basically an exit for appearances sake at that point.
EU is basically being totalitarian.
cosmic badge
I guess it's a good thing the UK won't be in the EU any more then, don't have to comply with "totalitarian" policies π
That's what sovereignty is about, right?
arctic tangle
No, I mean, UK exists, EU signs a new law into their charter, if UK does not imp...
Okay, what?
Was this part of the Withdrawal Agreement or is this part of the trade negotiations?
Also, the EU is not "punishing" us for withdrawing from the union, though granted they have zero incentive to make it easy for us because of course they want to sell the narrative to its current member states and any potential member states that it's better to be in the union than not. But the examples of the EU "punishing" us for simply leaving are not exactly convincing... like the EU treating us as a market competitor, how dastardly of them! the EU setting terms to access to their market, those bullies!
mystic ermine
Well, they're tryna make an example of us coz they don't want other countries to leave
But, looks like france is on the verge of snapping too
shut vine
Based on what I've read it's the withdrawal agreement, otherwise it's a no-agreement withdrawal. Also if UK and France leave, that's about 1/4 of the EU's GDP gone. Think Spain was considering it too.
Italy is gaining support for it too.
mystic ermine
if the EU lasts another 100 years, I will be surprised, ngl
Or, wait, it's newer than that, hmph
shut vine
Yeah '93
I'd be surprised if it lasted 50 total with more than half of the current member countries.
mystic ermine
There are some countries which I doubt would wanna leave, weren't we still propping greece up?
shut vine
Nothing like a pandemic to make people try to find something to blame.
mystic ermine
Not really sure what the pandemic has to do with the EU
People wanting to leave the EU has been uprising for a time
france where already debating on leaving when we announced it, spain and somewhere else said that they'd be considering it if we dropped out iirc
shut vine
Well, people during hard times want to find someone to blame for their issues. It's not hard to make them think it's the fault of something or someone that it isn't during those times.
mystic ermine
France is pissed off because the EU won't help them with the migrant crisis and all the terrorism funded by turkey, meanwhile, turkey's want to join the EU is under 0 questions
arctic tangle
meanwhile, turkey's want to join the EU is under 0 questions
That's not exactly true, Turkey has been "joining" the EU for the past 30 years or so and haven't passed the first hurdle iirc.
I'd be very, very surprised if Turkey becomes a full EU member state within the next 50 years, or ever.
mystic ermine
i was goinf off le penn there
foggy fern
Isn't France the one that wants an EU army?
UK was the one pushing for Turkey to join the EU, no?
mystic ermine
google search I can find that references the UK thing was apparently boris saying that he'd help them join after we announced we where leaving? o.O
and shit, I can't believe it's been like 4 years already
arctic tangle
Wouldn't be surprised, the UK blocked early attempts of the EU to keep cheap Chinese steel from flooding the market, and were then shocked, shocked at how the EU could allow such cheap Chinese steel to flood the market and threaten poor domestic Tata Steel
mystic ermine
All I'm saying is is that if kang and kodos came and took the entire parliamentary building mid-session, we'd be in a much better place
arctic tangle
Which Parliament? :P
mystic ermine
at this rate
Why not all of them?
governments in general these days are just full of people who are too dated for their services
stuff like people dealing with tech legislation being so old that their first computer on their desk was in their 30s type deal, like, not literally but almost
You have boris who's leaving soon because he's not paid enough as a PM and can't afford his life-style
Like, fuck off
You earn more than the majority of brits will likely earn in a year
if you're upset about the wage, fuck off now vs dragging all this crap out, shove somebody in there willing to discuss who's actually had contact with the public in a meaningful capacity in the past, lets say, 10 years?
arctic tangle
Definitely agree that we need more age diversity in government. I don't think we should excise the whole lot though, there is wisdom in age after all or at least in theory anyway. But I do think the EU has done a lot of things to our benefit that we wouldn't have otherwise.
mystic ermine
The issue is that people are losing more and more faith in these establishments
arctic tangle
Like, while the GDPR means some rather annoying popups, it also means I have the freedom to request, amend, opt out, and be forgotten.
mystic ermine
Well, yea, but the issue with aspects like GDPR is how horrifically it's defined
There is a problem when your rules on companies require them to start lawyering up to figure out wtf your regulation means and how much it impacts you
arctic tangle
I'd rather have it than not, especially with what the UK is doing in terms of data and privacy and access
When your government is actively trying to enforce age restrictions on the entire internet, something like the GDPR while flawed is a breath of fresh air
at least the GDPR is a step in the right direction
let's not have the perfect get in the way of the decent
mystic ermine
GDPR doesn't save your ass from the pron ban, etc
arctic tangle
I know, not saying it does
mystic ermine
on the surface of consumer rights, GDPR is amazing
arctic tangle
it was also nice for the European Court of Justice to rein in on some of the UK's mass surveillance measures
mystic ermine
The issue is that the definition of GDPR can often involve weeks of fighting over aspects like, "is that considered personal data" for stuff left in the weird grey zone
not also sure what the the eu courts did to help with UKs mass surveillance
arctic tangle
This is not to say that the EU is some panacea for tech issues, like the whole Article 13 thing still boggles me mind. It's such a shame they didn't let Julia Reda lead the way with EU Copyright reform
(This is her talk btw, it's a really interesting watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL_Wxu6x1HU)
but yeah, Brexit has been extremely uneasy about the future of human rights
mystic ermine
Why can't se all just go to bed and wake up happy with one another π¦
No need for borders, no need for moronic government legislation, etc
people just gooootta be assholes smh
arctic tangle
being in the EU meant that we were protected by the ECHR and we still are for the time being, but on Jan 1st our human rights return to standard Ordinary Law.. and the Conservatives have specifically targeted human rights in their manifesto to be updated, which is code for removing stuff that's inconvenient to good ol' British justice.
mystic ermine
our conservative party ain't really conservative anymore
It's really just a total shitfest of leaders tryna appease random people they think care about them and filling random peoples pockets
I wish that they'd make it illegal for MPs friends to submit to government contract bids
arctic tangle
We do have a mechanism for constitutionality in the UK, certain laws can be considered so important that they cannot be overwritten implicitly, but ultimately it'll still only take 50% of Parliament to alter our human rights and it's not political suicide to do so since the UK has pretty reliably been able to reference the worst humans as cause to reduce rights and freedoms and expand the police state
mystic ermine
Well, that's another one of the horrors of the two party systems
You're basically stuck between somebody who wants to destroy the country implictly, and somebody who seems so dangerous to the country that people expect that the place is gonna crash and burn the second they step into office
our so called conservative party fucks me off so much
But, fuuuck me a labour a pedantic plodding POS
arctic tangle
Sir Kier is definitely an improvement and has me considering supporting Labour over my traditional support for the Lib Dems
mystic ermine
Not really read up on kier, most of the recent stuff I've been struggling to keep too much track of because my brain is semi-mush
arctic tangle
He definitely seems better than Corbyn and does far better in PMQs
mystic ermine
I mean, anybody semi-sane could to better than corbyn
I live in an area where thatcher and the fact that this is heavily a student area means that we're basically a labour strong hold
arctic tangle
Kier is also not weird looking, which I know shouldn't matter, but people are generally warmer towards people who don't look emaciated
mystic ermine
Only real reason I heard for voting for labour was that they'll abolish uni fees and such, which, as a first year you can imagine a lot of people where estatic about
pretty sure that corbyn did eventually come out and say that that wasn't even a viable thing to do
arctic tangle
tbh even as a recent graduate I don't understand the hysteria over tuition fees
mystic ermine
Uni in the UK is a really weird one
I mean, literally anybody can get a tuition loan
I also got a grant and a loan for living expenses due to my family being a council family
arctic tangle
exactly and it's not even a loan.. it doesn't show up on your credit score, you don't start paying it until you earn over 25k and you don't even pay it, it's more like a tax, and if after 30 years you haven't paid it off it gets expunged completed without any adverse effects...
my student loan could be Β£3 million and I wouldn't notice a difference
mystic ermine
My bff who's father is well paid as like a train manager wasn't able to get a grant but was able to get a loan
Yea
I mean, imho
The BIGGEST thing they could do, is to curtail the increase of tuition costs
Same for the US too
arctic tangle
nah, the biggest thing they could do is increase the grants
mystic ermine
Well, true
arctic tangle
I was highly reliant on my parents exactly because they considered my parent's income when calculating my grant, which lowered it to the minimum amount, which forced me to rely on my parents.. my grant would even pay for the rent for the smallest shoebox room
mystic ermine
I got the max payout between loan + grant because of my parents
Yea
I mean, I kiiinda get it
but, it's kinda dumb
I'm estranged from my parents, and if they where making a killing, that would have made it much harder for me
even on max pay out, after rent, etc, it's enough to live on okayish
arctic tangle
I don't get it tbh, while I was scraping money together to buy new boots (which have still lasted like 6 years later) all my friends were buying expensive computers and new expensive dresses and Apple Watches and TVs
oh and the amount students spend on alcohol, it's obscene
mystic ermine
Yea, the thing is that for most students, this is the first time they've had more than like Β£100 or whatever in the back account with no supervision from their parents, etc
arctic tangle
the biggest thing they can do is remove the grant scaling and just give a flat grant because it's actively fucking over the middle class.. the rich aren't going to care, they have tons of money, and lower income get the support they need, but me? nope
mystic ermine
Oh god, one of my mates enjoyed it
he lived like an hours bus ride out max, so he saved a metric fuckton of rent
dusky raft
I am all fucking set with the college lifestyle
mystic ermine
Just, try to avoid my timing of graduating in the middle of a fucking pandemic
arctic tangle
it was genuinely disheartening when my friends could afford rent and get takeaways and my grant didn't even cover my rent so I had to plead my parents every week for an allowance
dusky raft
I would go to college to learn. Otherwise, I think we should remove college funding and dump that towards nightclubs
arctic tangle
they never set up a direct debit either so I was on the phone every week
it made me a rather frugal person
shy gulch
putin is love, putin is life
mystic ermine
The way they do it imho is just moronic
Like, a huge goal of uni is to get people into a phase where they're moving onto their own lives away from their parents
Why are we tying them to somebodies income who most students won't actually physically see for months at a time
dusky raft
This is why I think trade and the reinvention of K-12 school is required in the US than continue to shovel money into colleges
arctic tangle
well, to be fair your university system is inhumane, and that's being polite
dusky raft
If college is some requirement, then why the fuck did I go through 12/13 years of utter bullshit (though I went to a trade school, so minus a good 2 years, since that actually went towards something)
mystic ermine
The US system is moronic and vastly expensive and they wanna move these institutions over into pulling money from a magical pot vs fixing the real issue
dusky raft
Colleges are predatory, because its all government money flowing in
If we didnt have the government giving money to kids, NEVERMIND already funding these colleges, We may have never been in this mess
mystic ermine
I mean
at the point of which you have people leaving uni's with a 4 year degree with literally hundreds of thousands in debt, you got a fucked up system
It's moronic that people are buying into this crap without reading their terms and conditions, and complaining that they've gotta pay back a crapton a month for a go-nowhere degree almost
dusky raft
nevermind how some colleges are pretty much next to extended stay resorts/daycares
mystic ermine
There was apparently some places doing something kinda similar to what the UK does
dusky raft
lol
mystic ermine
You go uni, and for a period of time, when you're earning, you'll make payments back
dusky raft
joking by the way, but man the money put into utterly useless bullshit
mystic ermine
depending on your course depends on how long you'll be paying for and how much, etc
If you don't got a job, you don't pay, etc
arctic tangle
Hundreds of thousands of debt you can't shake, not even if you go bankrupt. Oh and here's the best part, you know that whole 30 year thing I was talking about? America has a version of that, but when the remainder of the loan is expunged, say you have $100,000 left to pay, that is considered by the IRS as a $100,000 gift, so your taxes go up lol
mystic ermine
You may pay more, you may pay less, such is the system, but it all ties out that the people who do pay end up with covering the costs for others
What i said or what proton said?
dusky raft
you said
mystic ermine
Because what I said is already in play by a few places and is working
The only real biggest thing is that you've got some interest from the people loaning you the money to actually get their payments back, vs just stamping your application behind a window with no real care for what you're doing
dusky raft
yeah, but I wouldnt be surprised if the college was very selective of who goes in
mystic ermine
they already are
Also, it's not the colleges who do the money stuff, it's private investors
dusky raft
yeah, its government here
mystic ermine
vs some public system where they rubberstamp for degrees with marginal job potentials
Your investor is actually vested in getting payments back vs just lumping you with a debt for the rest of your life which you may never pay off
So, if you're going for some liberal arts degree, they're probs gonna tell you to fuck off
mystic ermine
Go into stem or whatever, and you've got a huge massive ass deal where you either save a fuckton of cash, or, come out with a kick-ass degree and a paying job
dusky raft
I know some college in the state I lived in gave out feminist degrees, I think as high as masters
mystic ermine
colleges should be banned from creating go-nowhere degrees without at least stating that they're basically go-nowhere
or at least ensuring that people have some plan for wtf they're gonna do after all of this
I don't see why the system allows people to rubber-stamp themselves with literal thousands upon thousands dollars of debt with 0 goal of apying it back outside of dreams
arctic tangle
Better labelling, per se, would be better in regards to the types of courses, but please can we not go down the route of only valuing courses by their ability to get you employment?
mystic ermine
You get a loan, you gotta pay it back
if you wanna go get some degree which offers you no means of gaining employment, especially as somebody without a degree, I think that you should at least be warned that you're likely being a moron
arctic tangle
I do not feel any animosity towards people seeking knowledge of the liberal arts
mystic ermine
No, but I don't feel that you should be throwing in a hundred thousand to a college without understanding that you're likely gonna be fucked on the way out if you don't have something else already lined up
if people wanna go study the liberal arts, they should be able to
but, allowing people to get thousands into debts of 0 end goal degrees is moronic if you're going to lump these people with debt for the rest of their lives
There should at least be some "you're potentially being a moron" aknowledgement from both sides, before just blindly rubber stamping these people
That's the biggest complain that people have with their loans is that they didn't know that their degree was going to lead them basically nowhere and now they're like 100k in debt and will likely never pay it off
arctic tangle
Certain courses should be subsidised, like what we do with medical courses with the NHS here. If certain courses are treasured then students in those courses should be aided more than usual.
If someone wishes to do a liberal arts course then I shall not begrudge them that, nor their right to receive a loan for it. But they ought to know that the skills they'll receive from that course aren't necessarily that applicable to everyday life.. and ultimately this should be the choice of the student.
mystic ermine
Yes, and I agree, but the issue is that the latter part is NOT passed onto students
So, you have a fair % of students upset with the system because of their choices to go take a course with 0 prospects and accrue a fuckton of debt in the process
I've not seen somebody who trained up in a stem field complaining too much about the loan system other than how much it costs
dusky raft
nevermind the saturation of "easy" degree holders
shut vine
Courses should be subsidized by government by need and by merit.
i.e. if you need engineers, and someone is very motivated in that area, which also shows in their results, it makes sense to give those people scholarships.
smoky hedge
The concept of scholarships always weirded me out
The university I went to did not provide scholarships for any IT-related degrees
But it provided scholarships for practically everything else
elder portal
1920's mob boss
alrighty then
we coulda done this the easy way, see?
now it's gotta be the hard way, yeaaahh?
"everybody knows"
mm, the "appeal to the masses" fallacy
also known as the bandwagon fallacy
foggy fern
The bitching about college always seems weird to me, boomers in the US went to some of the best schools in the world completely for free (state schools used to be fully funded) then tried to replace that with student loans to make more money they papered over the failures of that idea in the worst way possible
Like, just undo all that bullshit
elder portal
community college with scholarships is alright
I didn't need to pay a cent for my degree, really
I have loans because I took out money to live, which is another issue really
that said, holy hell 4-years are expensive
like, wow
foggy fern
Right, my parents were poor as fuck so I got a grant to cover tuition and almost all my books and such at a community college
elder portal
if you want to get a bachelor's or above you're going to be paying a looooooooooottt
tough cedar
i stopped at an associates from the CC because i didn't want to have to take out loans
foggy fern
Student loan was for the little bit the grant didn't cover, transportation, lunch on campus, etc
tough cedar
but i don't feel very smart so uhh... might get that bachelors anyways
foggy fern
I didn't have much of a loan either, $1200/semester
elder portal
at the two-year level it's more about showing you can do work rather than that you have the knowledge
though always, always do something more than just go to class. I was very tempted to just go to class, get my degree, and leave, but I didn't and it's entirely because I didn't that I have an incredible job now
foggy fern
But it used to be if you got accepted to one of your state's schools you were set, you could live on the campus dorms (which where just basic cinder block things, not hotels) and go to class for free and you just needed money for like 1 meal a day and leisure
elder portal
I mean, if you look at wages + inflation + education required now vs when boomers were getting jobs..
foggy fern
Well, sure, more things require a degree so there is more demand
elder portal
boomers were getting paid the equiv. of ~$18-$20/hr working their first job at Mc.D's with no GED or HS diploma
at least in the U.S.
foggy fern
But most of the cost growth in school is the same as the growth in medicine: administration overhead
You make these systems more and more complex and surprise, suddenly it takes an army of paper pushers to keep them straight
elder portal
so you can see why they might think we're just being lazy/need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps/etc
cosmic badge
Ultimately it doesn't matter if it's a business decision, just how the market works.
No entity that generates profits does anything out of moral consideration.
smoky hedge
Like I agree that neoliberal-coopted idpol is bad, but removing terms that are considered offensive from brand names is a good idea IMO
cosmic badge
Right, and I assume people in general feel that way too. So either change the name or risk wider boycotts.
smoky hedge
Has that other team with the yikes name changed it yet?
IMO that one was way worse of a name lol
cosmic badge
Washington Redskins?
smoky hedge
Yeah
cosmic badge
Yeah they did. They're Washington Football Team now lol
loud flax
so are we going to change the name because we're pushing our morals onto native americans, or did they decide that it was the best decision?
smoky hedge
Makes sense - I remember it being a thing years ago, but as I'm not in the US and don't care about sports at all so never heard about the outcome
cosmic badge
Because they decided it was a good business decision, because people in general are becoming more sensitive to it. It has nothing to do with native Americans.
smoky hedge
Neoliberal-coopted Idpol is basically just "What is good optics to make us look good"
cosmic badge
The team owner(s) couldn't give two shits what their team is called. It's purely a calculated business decision lol
smoky hedge
Compared to actual identity politics, which is acknowledging that various oppression will impact a political opinion of a group
cosmic badge
This is how the market works.
loud flax
that's the kind of thing that makes youtube less "broadcast yourself" and more "broadcast yourself the way we want you to", but that's another subject entirely
cosmic badge
Their cost-benefit analysis says the name is not popular, so they're changing it.
elder portal
I've had mixed reactions to the name when I lived near a few reservations in SD. Some absolutely hate the word indian, and some don't really care
As always, it depends on who you talk to
smoky hedge
I really hate neoliberal idpol, as it just leads to doing stuff that overall improves nothing, but then getting annoyed at oppressed groups when they're still complaining about inequalities
elder portal
Call people by what they prefer to be called
smoky hedge
"But we named a street after you, why are you still having issues?!?!?!??!111111!"
cosmic badge
I wouldn't blame the team owners for making a decision designed to increase their profits, blame society for being overly PC.
smoky hedge
That's what I'm doing π I'm blaming neoliberals for their nonsensical coopting of identity politics π
cosmic badge
I miss the days when things like The Chappelle Show was acceptable.
loud flax
instead of trying to fix the problem, just make it worse lol
cosmic badge
Again not the team owners fault lol
smoky hedge
Well, neoliberals are fixing a problem. Just not the one that helps oppressed groups
cosmic badge
They are in it to make money.
loud flax
"here let me take the oppression off of you by restricting that which offends you"
cosmic badge
Not their fault society is the way it is.
smoky hedge
Neoliberalism is literally "how can we make capitalism seem trendy to those that it oppresses"
So they do a lot of virtue signalling to make people feel represented, when in reality nothing changes
cosmic badge
Yep
smoky hedge
Or sometimes they change something small, to make people feel heard - but never anything fundamental
mystic ermine
God, not seen too much of Chappelle's work, but, what I have seen is top notch
I love the sense of british humour, stupid shit like racist jokes
Yea, we know they're racist, we know they're bad, but, as somebody who is friends with people who come from different races, we enjoy and find it comical to share jokes of varying natures, against their cultures and even moreso our own
I think that being able to joke about our differences and laugh about our similarities lets us learn more about each other and how to get along, and fight for each others causes, more-so than arguing about who's stance on solving an issue is right or wrong
cosmic badge
I'm half Asian, I fucking love racist Asian jokes. I know it's a joke, I am capable of not being offended by stereotypes. The PC culture is ridiculous today.
mystic ermine
and I think that's what our biggest failing is these days, is that we can't talk or even laugh
cosmic badge
I really enjoyed a lot of Russell Peters' early standup, he did a lot of that stuff
smoky hedge
To be fair, some people being okay with something doesnβt mean everyone is
mystic ermine
Been seeing some of Fluffys work too
smoky hedge
There are jokes Iβm okay with that others in the same situation very much are not okay with because it actually harms them
shut vine
Dave Chappelle is basically the Teflon comedian, he's offended so many groups over his lifetime and people have tried cancelling him, but then he just makes jokes at their expense.
Jokes are an art, if you don't like the art you just find another that you do.
Doing otherwise is not very sane.
cosmic badge
Indeed, if you're offended it's not a reason to cancel them, IMO. Just change the channel.
loud flax
there's a Jordan Peterson quote I love
To be creative you have to risk being offensive
smoky hedge
Jokes can also normalise harm to groups too
loud flax
or something on those lines
smoky hedge
So thereβs definitely a line
mystic ermine
It depends on the intent of the joke more than the joke itself
cosmic badge
Certainly, but that threshold these days is super low.
mystic ermine
^
Not to mention, the modern day being offended for others is just silencing those who are actually suffering from the issue
shut vine
A joke's intent is to make someone laugh, if that is not the intent then it's not really a joke.
loud flax
have we lost the ability to love each other? almost looks like it
mystic ermine
I love telling jokes
But, I also love talking about stuff
I would rather tell a joke and be in for an hours discussion around the nuances, maybe we both learn something, than being called a whatever and that essentially being the end of the discussion
it shows the state of society
Jokes are a good way of discussion even societal issues which are too horrific to talk about
loud flax
you know what ends the discussion quick for me? well let me just say I'm a Christian... fill in the blanks
mystic ermine
It brings stuff to the spotlight, it allows discussion through humour through topics which are often shunned because of how they're seen
loud flax
the amazing thing is
shut vine
That's your personal line and that's fine.
smoky hedge
It can definitely be done in harmful ways though
loud flax
if you just stop to think about something without being offended right when it's uttered, you might save yourself from being offended
mystic ermine
Yes, but, that shouldn't lead to cancelling and should be the doors open for a discussion, rather than outrage
shut vine
Yea which is where personal lines come into it.
mystic ermine
We will gain more from discussions than we ever will by marching down the streets fighting one another
shut vine
Yeah, also a very strong case for why censorship doesn't work.
arctic tangle
Something that we really need to admit is that the nature of free speech has changed. Most people, particularly recently, aren't discussing things at church or at the pub or whatever, nor even newspapers or talks where entry is gated behind some level of journalistic discretion, no, we're mostly talking online where everything is, at the very least, pseudonymous, where people can say the most rotten things to hundreds, thousands, perhaps even millions of people and that's treated in the exact same way as you having a chat with your mates.
When someone can go viral with hateful rhetoric or "jokes" and then hate crimes coincidentally start rising, what are we supposed to do about that? And even then, online forums and algorithms have allowed the festering of extremism en masse to the point where saying the most disgusting things with the vaguest sense that you might be saying it ironically is just fine.. people's tolerance for this stuff is increasing.
.
Using your rights responsibly is a civic duty; remember that saying about power and responsibility? Doesn't seem that many people believe this anymore and genuinely believe that all speech, no matter how heinous or uninformed is considered equal to good faith discussion. Like giving anti-vaxxers 50/50 screen time with actual scientists... like what? We're throwing away our responsibilities with speech with both hands to chase this abstraction notion of the free marketplace of ideas, because obviously free markets have shown themselves to be faultless.
shut vine
Free speech only protects you against legal intervention for what you say. Barring anything that could reasonably directly lead someone to harm (fire in a theater), or libel. People often misunderstand that. Regarding my initial point, censorship regardless of the form doesn't work. Online it wont stop someone from spreading hateful things. Censoring them just makes them use another online platform, or another pseudonym.
Being able to address people with bad ideas head on is an important part of keeping society safe. Marginalizing people is generally either part of the reason they have the bad ideas, or is only going to increase the likelihood they'll keep thinking that way, or escalate. You can't change someones mind if you can't hear what they think.
Well you can, you jail or execute them for the dissident ideas or beliefs. But enough about China.
arctic tangle
Great, so our jobs is to stem the viral and en mass shift towards extremist views by trawling through the internet and trying to convert people back to being reasonable. Sounds like a lovely solution that really scales well.
near glen
And the right for free speech doesn't allow you to take rights away from others, hate speech should not be covered under free speech. Thankfully we don't do that in germany
Human dignity is unimpeachable is our first consitutional right, everything else is lower prio than that
near glen
The whole socity shifted to the right
And we need to make sure to turn it back to normal
shut vine
Interesting you mention, speech and thought was one of the things Joseph Goebbels was intent on controlling.
The work to censor people started in 1933ish, if my history is correct.
shut vine
It's not the speech itself to me, it's that a politician who is potentially corrupt - or the next guy - should not decide what I can say or think.
No I agree. We should fight hate speech.
Just not with laws.
near glen
Well that's why it's in the consitution
It's not a law
It's not a law
Man discord is going down too
Man discord is going down too
shut vine
Yeah it's laggy as hell, also Germany has hate speech laws. They approved a new one in early 2020.
Article 5 of the German constitution literally says free speech is protected and there shall be no censorship.. with the exception of things passed into law. All of the power is in the government to decide what is and is not allowed to be spoken or thought.
near glen
They are more about enforcement than saying what is hatespeech
mystic ermine
Seems like we just fell into the "if you don't share my views, you're a nazi" :/
arctic tangle
Article 5 of the German constitution literally says free speech is protected and...
"...or thought"
shut vine
Yes, you have a gif, good job.
arctic tangle
Could you please point me in the general direction of the law that institutes thought crime?
mystic ermine
I mean, he's not wrong, but, not in a literal sense
shut vine
Yeah, censoring speech is the avenue to control thought. If people can't speak about an idea they cannot learn about it either.
mystic ermine
I don't believe that churches should be forced to permit same-sex marriages
Now, I do not disagree with same-sex marriage, or whatever, marry whoever the fuck you want
shut vine
Yeah, people should be allow to do what they want unless they're trying to force it on others or harming them directly.
arctic tangle
And what example is there of hate speech laws being used to prevent education?
shut vine
Who a person chooses to marry does not affect my life in the slightest sense.
mystic ermine
Who decides what hate speech is and isn't?
shut vine
Doesn't affect anyone except the two parties involved.
mystic ermine
What stops government making "g'day cunt" illegal?
I mean, it's a moronic argument, but, really, where do you draw the line of what hate speech is and isn't, especially with how often we looove to redefine words these days?
shut vine
Lets say a guy named Boris decided talking badly about the Prime Minister of a certain country was hate speech, you'd be fine with hate speech laws?
mystic ermine
In his defence
It would be the only way to get people to say good things about him
shut vine
I mean, how many countries just vote down party lines these days.
arctic tangle
Lets say a guy named Boris decided talking badly about the Prime Minister of a c...
Good luck with that passing
That "Lets say" is doing a lot of work for you.
shut vine
If it passed you wouldn't see an issue though, since the definition of hate speech changed you'd fight anyone who spoke out against him?
You'd report them to the Gestapo?
I mean the police.
arctic tangle
I see what you're trying to do there, but you're wrong
mystic ermine
Knowing our government they'd make it an offence to call them out, and hand themselves a payrise in the process
#FuckTheNHS
arctic tangle
James, could you please point me in the direction of a case where hate speech laws have been used to jail people having a discussion about, say, trans issues?
shut vine
Germany, USSR, Venezuela, China. There are the ones literally anyone knows about.
arctic tangle
.....seriously?
arctic tangle
And here I was thinking you were arguing in good faith
mystic ermine
last I recall, it literally became illegal to speak out and question the leadership, etc
Same in Venezuela, they basically made running your own media company illegal, and I waannna say punishable by death if you spoke out against them
arctic tangle
So, let's just be clear, you have zero examples from stable democracies that have expanded hate speech laws to protect minorities... you instead have three absolute dictatorships and pretending they're contemporary examples of hate speech laws? o.O seriously?
mystic ermine
You think that we currently have a stable democracy?
Brexit, the fact that people in the US are fighting on the streets
shut vine
I'm not going to argue from a very specific cherry-picked set of rules. If you're arguing in good faith then you wouldn't be so specific about the example you want.
arctic tangle
You think that we currently have a stable democracy?
Yes, categorically. We going through a shaky period but our institutions will endure and so will our country.
mystic ermine
there was a couple who was literally sued in court as they where bible bashers and didn't wanna bake like a gay pride cake or something
shut vine
Was there censorship in Germany that lead to mass genocide or not?
Or rather, was a major part of it.
mystic ermine
Like, picking the extremes is a crazy move, but, you can't tell me that people aren't scared that people are making the moves that potentially lead in that direction
We've already got people wanting to make lists for anybody that supported trump
shut vine
Yeah I agree about extremes, but the extremes show the absurdity of arguing that we should give government that control.
arctic tangle
there was a couple who was literally sued in court as they where bible bashers a...
This was in America iirc, and there were two cake cases. The first cake was inoffensive, it was just a standard wedding cake that was denied to a customer because it would be used for a gay wedding. That case was decided as discrimination, a good decision. The second cake was lewd and the Supreme Court sided with the baker, another good decision.
shut vine
I don't think someone should be forced into doing something they don't want to do. No matter how much money you offer them.
mystic ermine
and, why can't a couple say that they don't wanna bake a cake for something that goes against their religion?
I mean, I think religion is moronic, but, there comes a point where religions start clashing beliefs, what do you do?
shut vine
It's a news story, shouldn't be a legal case.
I can't believe they wasted the Supreme Courts time with that malarkey.
Also confused why making a lewd cake is something that should be a protected right to say no to for religious reasons.
Like from a consistent viewpoint perspective I'm asking, I think someone should be able to deny making any cake they don't want to make for any reason.
mystic ermine
The way I see it is that it's a damned cake
Like, just bake the cake, earn a few dollars and move tf on
shut vine
yea I agree
mystic ermine
But, I don't really get religious mumbo jumbo, so
I mean, my best friend is religious
She's a muslim
A lesbian muslim
who smokes pot
and shows skin
shut vine
But I'm fine with the idea that a person who doesn't want to make money from a customer because they have something they don't like about the job they can turn it down.
mystic ermine
So
shut vine
If that reason is stupid, the news will crucify them
arctic tangle
iirc the lewd cake reached the threshold of creativity: that the standard cake being advertised and then refused to a customer based on a trait is textbook discrimination, but a special request cake that'd demands above and beyond acquiescence from the baker was considered too far
could be wrong but that's the general idea iirc
mystic ermine
I don't think that somebody baking cakes should be forced to bake a cake of a dick or whatever
if you want something lewd, go to a lewd baking store
they exist
shut vine
Yea, I agree. If someone does not feel comfortable making a certain type of cake then they should not be required to.
Also the first instance you talked about, they wanted two grooms on the cake.
arctic tangle
Something to keep in mind is that the cake thing was a tug of war between consumer rights and business rights, and ultimately it was a win for consumers.
mystic ermine
The issue is, where do you draw the line?
Like, dick cakes; are we gonna be at the point where businesses fear that if they deny something because "Hey, make this dick cake for us, btw, we're gay", is gonna end up with business owners in court screaming that we don't wanna make dick cakes
Also, where does religions rights stand?
shut vine
I agree. Do you give businesses autonomy to decide what to do and what not to do? i.e. Twitter/Facebook/etc censoring or cake companies deciding not to make cakes. Or do you force them to show/do everything?
mystic ermine
Like, once again, I think religions are moronic, but, where does the freedom to practice your religion stop, as soon as you walk through the door of a store?
arctic tangle
The issue is, where do you draw the line?
The line has already been drawn.. I don't think it's productive to argue to minute location of the line, we now know the line is between discriminating a standard service, and discriminating a special request service
Getting bogged down in constantly zooming in to the atomic level of abstract issues is part of the reason that nothing gets done.
shut vine
The first instance you mentioned did not fit the criteria of standard btw.
arctic tangle
Yes and no
shut vine
They had special requests to the design of the cake.
arctic tangle
We're nobodies talking in a <#738890587721302097> channel
We're nobodies yes, but ultimately getting bogged down in atomic level issue can cause a lot of people to sit on the fence
arctic tangle
They had special requests to the design of the cake.
Yeah no, sticking a two grooms figurine on the top of the cake is not some special request imposition, omg
shut vine
The company also said the couple can purchase anything they want from the store that wasn't special order.
arctic tangle
Hang on, there was a thing about this
shut vine
The first instance and the second instance you mentioned, are literally the same case probably.
Because the first one was overturned.
mystic ermine
Yea, that's what I was thinking as I was only aware of one case of it
oh, shit
he's back in cour because he didn't wanna make a trans-themed birthday cake
shut vine
That's the one, Masterpiece v Colorado CRC
mystic ermine
Yea, he lost but was then overturned due to it violating his religious rights
arctic tangle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yku94Wyb55c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvniwN-iZmI
There's parts missing, particularly the response to the end of the first video, but there was a really good back and forth about this issue, I'll see if I can find a longer clip
shut vine
I think RBG wrote the dissenting opinion with Sotomayor too.
arctic tangle
One of the most poignant responses in that exchange was something along the lines of:
Imagine you're a vegetarian and you go to a grocery store and they refuse to sell you vegetables, in fact they'll sell you anything but vegetables. That's effectively a denial of service, discrimination.
mystic ermine
Well
Why aren't they selling you vegatables, and does it go against any of their rights or responsibilities?
shut vine
I mean that example can easily be flipped to a whole lot of uncomfortable questions. It's a false equivalency to start with.
mystic ermine
Personally, I'd rather public disagreements like that be dealt with the free market way: Go elsewhere, tell your friends
shut vine
Tell the news
arctic tangle
Free market doesn't work
We have regulations on the market exactly because it doesn't work
mystic ermine
but, as I say, the issue is is where do your own rights trump the rights of others?
shut vine
If people want to do things for reasons that are unpopular opinions then let them burn π
By public opinion
mystic ermine
I mean, the freemarket is a myth due to regulation
near glen
Personally, I'd rather public disagreements like that be dealt with the free mar...
- stabs a knife in cats back *
shut vine
By the way, the second case you talked about is the same company, for a gender transition cake.
near glen
Sorry, we had a disagreement, it you don't like watching the blood pour over the floor you can go elsewhere
shut vine
They literally won two cases protecting their religious freedom.
mystic ermine
e.g. who do you think benefits the most from minumum wage requirements, medicare, etc, requirements?
arctic tangle
James, I know you're invested this idea of social suicide... but if someone denied a Muslim service, or a trans person service, or whatever, it's likely that shop will get more business. Twitter bombing doesn't do anything.
mystic ermine
Because people support a message or they don't
arctic tangle
That shop would be supported for "taking a stand"
"Saying what we're all thinking"
mystic ermine
The thing is that it's an issue which not everybody agrees on
I'm not really sure of any real religion which agrees with transgender aspects
shut vine
So Masterpiece gained business after winning those cases and making a stand?
Question is should someone or a group be forced to adopt the views of another?
We don't have to have everyone agree with gay marriage for it to be a thing.
I am actually for making marriage a non-special status legally / tax purposes and allowing it for all.
mystic ermine
Yea, as I say, I don't think that places should be forced to perform acts against their religion such as gay marriages, but, I personally have nothing against it
I mean, I agree, the tie of marriage into the law is moronic
(think that's what you said there, am braindead)
shut vine
Marriage should basically be the same as any private agreement, if someone wants to involve religion in their marriage due to personal beliefs then they do it, it's their choice
You just tell the government you're married, and that's that, none of these legal celebrants or anything, deregulate the whole lot of it.
Hell, you shouldn't even have to tell the government if you don't want to, there is no purpose other than name changes maybe.
mystic ermine
The issue with marriage is that it's tied into the law, but, at the same point, it not being tied into the law has some scary aspects like child custody and divorce, not that child custody isn't basically total BS these days
shut vine
The child custody thing is the only main one that's hard to figure out in my opinion
That's hard regardless though
Anyway, I'm off to bed
mystic ermine
nite
elder portal
So the supply-chain attack affected software? Or is it just fixed in software?
It's from an APT, anyway
So, a nation-state attack
Targeted at.. who?
mystic ermine
the US
near glen
its the same attack that hit fireeye, the "security" comapny that didn't notice that ppl where extracting data for months from their servers π
elder portal
This is going to be an interesting next few months to a year
near glen
basically, the APT got access to stuff like all mails
mystic ermine
There's a few articles if you google which have more info potentially, my brains too fuzzed out to read too much so didn't wanna linky
near glen
oh holy shit
the supply chain attack was possible because FTP creds were leaked on github
L M F A O
mystic ermine
o u c h
near glen
I mean
elder portal
Solar winds does what, exactly?
near glen
it was not that easy, since the binaries where signed
but it sure doesnt look good, lmao
monitoring egg
elder portal
Ahhh
near glen
which is the dream for your supply chain attack
since its installed everywhere
and most likely has direct access to the internet
elder portal
Not always
near glen
so its easy to persist the intrusion by generating proper user accounts or whatever
elder portal
Gov't monitoring networks tend to be airgapped
For that reason
Er, not airgapped
Containerized
Am distracted this morning
near glen
their backchannel was disguised in a protocol
elder portal
That's the only real way to exfil data from the gov't
near glen
but thats the analysis by fireeye
weary obsidian
why is this in politics?
near glen
"In observed traffic these HTTP response bodies attempt to appear like benign XML related to .NET assemblies, but command data is actually spread across the many GUID and HEX strings present. Commands are extracted from HTTP response bodies by searching for HEX strings using the following regular expression: "{[0-9a-f-]{36}}"|"[0-9a-f]{32}"|"[0-9a-f]{16}". Command data is spread across multiple strings that are disguised as GUID and HEX strings."
because ppl are screaming "russia bad" I would assume
its a APT targeting gov infra, so ppl jumping to conclusions
heres a writeup by reuters https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cyber-amazon-com-exclsuive/u-s-treasury-breached-by-hackers-backed-by-foreign-government-sources-idUSKBN28N0PG
weary obsidian
yeah but this is facts, fine for general π
near glen
it being russia is not fact
mystic ermine
Because the nature of the attack would heavily devolve into political and I didn't wanna start that crap in general
weary obsidian
oh, i meant the fact they leaked their credentials and did dumb
and got hacked in general
mystic ermine
well, yea, and attacked the US gov
elder portal
cyberwarfare in practice
believe it or not, this is actually war
it's gov't military going up against gov't military on a battlefield - just not physically
the wars of the new age will be mostly digital
if you can take out you opponent's electricity, you can take out their country
Currently, if I am to believe a few media outlets, the major countries are in a state of mutually assured destruction
But anything to get an edge helps
sweet canyon
Looks like the electoral college has started casting votes.
elder portal
Eyyy
sweet canyon
^
elder portal
elder portal
Timezones, mostly
But also each state does its own election
So their own rules, etc
Even a presidential election is really just a bunch of individual states coming together and agreeing on what they each independently voted on
near glen
its such a mess
elder portal
Voting can vastly differ from state to state. It doesn't, usually, but it can
Think of it like individual countries in the EU rather than one country
elder portal
Because that's basically what the US is
The entire EU, condensed
With some weirdness
It works in some areas
Not so much in others
restive seal
Trump is ahead atm
I wonder if he'll claim it was rigged again because of this. π
elder portal
so far nothing
I'm waiting for a category 3 tweetstorm from Trump later today, though
lots of Sandy Hook stuff today, though
rip π¦
near glen
dont you love religious states
restive seal
Charming
This is pretty funny - https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1338569994767101956
π¨ π¨ GOALPOST MOVEMENT DETECTED π¨ π¨
https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1338495434348703747
restive seal
prepares to put mini in a medically-induced coma
At a minimum it's not until late January, buddy.
If ever
elder portal
is there any room left for new goalposts after Jan 20?
I don't believe so
though, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if somehow one was created
restive seal
imagine if that room goes for trump
elder portal
lol
chaos
absolute chaos
since when does a unanimous consent require a motion and a second?
that's the whole point of unanimous consent
restive seal
shrugs
restive seal
low?
elder portal
volume
restive seal
Oh, yeah, forgot how high I needed that.
This person is not even speaking into the mic so that's worse π
elder portal
yeah, I pushed everything to max and can still barely hear it
lol
yeah
there we go
loudness correction helps
this whole thing goes exactly like Student Gov't. Entirely formalities
not a bad thing, just neat
"this person is definitely going to be chair, but we have to go through the whole dog-and-pony show anyway"
the anticipation is murder
and there we go
Cali goes to Biden
I mean, duh.
near glen
why do they applaud as if they have accomplished anything?
elder portal
but it's official
near glen
contracts, you managed to do what you had to do
elder portal
they're not forced to vote the way the public tells them to
hence faithless electors
we vote to tell them how they should vote, and then they decide to vote - however, their vote is the one that actually decides
sweet canyon
So it sounds like the electoral college just officially voted for Biden?
elder portal
yep
sweet canyon
So does this ensure 100% that Biden will win?
near glen
π
elder portal
eyyyy, the system is working as we'd hoped it would
and continues to do so
.. we have some problems.
near glen
yeah sounds pretty sad π
elder portal
like the entire concept of the EC, for example
foggy fern
That's the main thing
Even if there are some faithless electors in California or Oregon or whatever the states he was trying to get to toss out their votes and just install him have all gone for Biden already
elder portal
yeah, it's officially over as far as the election process goes
now it's on to inauguration
foggy fern
He has just been tweeting more stuff from The Washington TImes
Which, like the NY Post, only gets any recognition because people mix it up with its more famous and reputable cousin
elder portal
yep
foggy fern
NY Post started out as a decent paper, New York Evening Post, by Alexander Hamilton
Not sure how much credibility it had in recent history but it's definitely been off the rails since Murdoch bought it
FDR was one of the owners in the 20s
From the 30s to the 70s it was owned by a woman who was a big supporter of liberalism, trade unions, social welfare, etc
Then Murdoch bought it and did a bait and switch
Apparently it has lost money every year since the year before Murdoch bought it
elder portal
can't imagine why
restive seal
So does this ensure 100% that Biden will win?
There's still the chance for members of congress to dispute the results in january, but that's about it.
cosmic badge
Biden is officially President-Elect now. Yay
It'll be really interesting if the GOP fractures, they're dumb if they think a third party has any chance at success under the current system. It's basically going to become Corporate Democrats vs Progressive Democrats like California π
restive seal
Biden is officially President-Elect now. Yay
cosmic badge
Hah
I'm sure when Pence does the formality of counting votes and acknowledging the results, he'll be considered deep state too
loud flax
man what a year
cosmic badge
I'm impressed that despite all of the Republican judges and justices appointed by Trump, how well our judicial has held up.
But then again, I guess there's a reason these are lifetime appointments.
shut vine
It's not a formality in a contested election. When he counts them the joint session of congress (Jan 4th I think?) has to formally certify them. Also regarding president-elect, in a contested election the GSA officially decides who the president-elect is, which I think they decided on 23rd of November.
It's what triggered the transition process to legally start.
cosmic badge
It's a formality. The results will be cemented on the 4th and Biden will be POTUS on Jan 20.
You can be as pedantic as you like, but it's a formality.
shut vine
I mean, I fully expect him to be inaugurated as president. But I don't think the process is going to be a straightforward one just like it wasn't in 2000.
cosmic badge
It will be. This is not a contested election.
2000 was very, very different.
Therefore, this is nothing more than a formality.
shut vine
To block counting of a state it only requires a single member of the house and member of the senate to sign a statement contesting it.
near glen
nothing is straight forward with a crybaby in office
shut vine
There's also technically a slim possibility that there could be a Biden (P) / Trump (VP) administration. My prediction is that the battleground states will be contested in the joint session, but it will eventually be decided Biden / Harris.
fast flame
I guess itβs technically possible but that will positively never happen
Trump would rather die than work under Biden
It would make him look weak which is the last thing he wants
cosmic badge
There is no chance it even goes that far. It will be Biden/Harris.
shut vine
Stranger things have happened, and constitutional scholars would disagree on the point of possibility. I do agree though it will most likely be Biden/Harris, until Biden steps down or is removed.
Did Pelosi ever manage to setup the 25th amendment committee? You know, the "process for future presidents", to remove them due to mental fitness grounds.
restive seal
Oh, is that the thing the right was saying was made so they could make Harris president on day one?
shut vine
Well the 25th amendment allows the majority of the cabinet or a means decided on by Congress to ascertain the mental fitness of a president. A president who is mentally unfit is removed either temporarily or permanently from office depending.
Pelosi is the one that floated the bill.
weary obsidian
well, i wouldnt really be upset if they did even
shut vine
I was uncertain of its status
Republicans pick the VP in that instance too.
Well the Senate does.
weary obsidian
what happens if biden resigns, does senate still pick vp?
shut vine
Which would make it Harris / X
I think the only instance where a president picks a new VP is if the VP resigns/unfit.
But I'm not 100% certain on that.. it's an area of the constitution that's exceptionally complicated for no reason.
Basically they've tried to clear it up once or twice, and it just made it worse from what I've read.
weary obsidian
man i kinda hope biden does resign. i wanna see the right fume at that
much rather have her president thanbiden
weary obsidian
ffs i hope he doesnt
tough cedar
i dont like that take lol
cosmic badge
The first elected female POTUS.
weary obsidian
yeah elected would be nicer
shut vine
I hope he does too, but mainly because I think he's suffering through dementia and it wouldn't be kind to make him live through that in such a public way.
cosmic badge
Trump can't even form a coherent sentence.
I think Biden will be alright for the next 4 years.
The bar is pretty low.
shut vine
I literally would prefer he keeps his dignity, it wasn't a political attack. Chill.