politics

[mystic ermine]

Boeing, etc, has no real strife for that, they get paid per rocket, re-usability cuts out their paychecks

[cosmic badge]

Difference between being a skeptic and a flat out conspiracy theorist.

[shy gulch]

oh gimme a break dude

[cosmic badge]

Don't be the latter.

[dusky raft]

yeah, spacex is actually improving rocket tech

[weary obsidian]

81 million vs 69.5 million is quite a large number to say yes more voted for Biden than Obama

[dusky raft]

There was also a larger turnout

[cosmic badge]

Clearly most of those are illegal votes.

lol

[shy gulch]

When you say no conspiracies do you mean I can't speculate corruption of the government?

Because that is what a conspiracy is

[cosmic badge]

If you're going to suggest election fraud, you're going to need to provide some compelling evidence

[mystic ermine]

I mean, there's a discussion in here

Yes, theres some oddball stuff that I've heard of, but, seriously, unless you actually have something substantial to bring, no need to just randomly jump into a channel just to spark a heated pointless discussion

[cosmic badge]

Otherwise if you want to discuss conspiracy theory without anything substantial, there's always r/conspiracy, but this probably isn't the place.

[shy gulch]

Do you believe Russia interfered in 2016

[cosmic badge]

Russia interfered through a disinformation campaign, yes.

Nobody is saying Russia hacked our systems.

[shy gulch]

Interesting...

[cosmic badge]

US also interferes with foreign elections. Nothing new

[shy gulch]

And so does China

Its gross how China gets away with so much crap

like genocide

[dusky raft]

China is borderline fascist

[shy gulch]

and slavery

[dusky raft]

its getting to that point really

and they arent hiding it

[shy gulch]

What would you call Stalinist communism

Whats the term for that ideology

[dusky raft]

eh, same shit, different person

[cosmic badge]

China under the PRC is a totalitarian state. Hard to argue against that.

They are far from being communist, as well.

[dusky raft]

there are so many different variations of communism that the naming is just to stroke the ego of the person who made it

marxism, leninism, stalinism, maoism

same fucking thing with a few tiny differences

[shy gulch]

yes

[cosmic badge]

Anyone who genuinely looks at China and believes they are communist should seriously go learn what communism is.

[shy gulch]

🙄

[dusky raft]

no, its a hybrid system

they used to be strictly communist

[weary obsidian]

the biggest issue with examples of communism is the mixture of the economic policy and the governering policy. the basis of communism is about economic policies, however all the big known communist societies were ruled by authoritarian regimes that were corrupt.

[dusky raft]

and companies still adhere to the communist party, which is similar to what the nazi's did

[weary obsidian]

and the authoritarianism is the part that most people reference

[cosmic badge]

It's like people who think America is a democracy. If you believe that, you need to go learn what a democracy is.

[shy gulch]

Noone in their right mind would call China capitalist, when everything you do has to be approved by the government and the government there interferes and controls all businesses in some way

[dusky raft]

communism requires authoritarianism

[weary obsidian]

the old original native american tribes and other indgeninous tribes are communist.

[shy gulch]

America is a Constitutionally-backed Republic.

[cosmic badge]

or in more mainstream terms, America is a democratic republic.

[weary obsidian]

@dusky raft to force acceptance yes, unless the group desires it and accepts it democratically such as indiginous tribes

communism really best works at super small scale, large scale nearly requires authoritarinism

[cosmic badge]

North Korea calls themselves a Democratic Republic. We know that's not true.

[shy gulch]

We do not vote for anything directly. We elect representatives. A democracy is when you vote issue-by-issue and all that matters is the popular vote. The electoral college guarantees that more rural and suburban areas can have a voice instead of all elections being determined by California and New York.

[cosmic badge]

Just because a country associates with a certain label, doesn't maen that's what they are.

China is not communist.

[dusky raft]

much like china calls themselves democratic

they arent

[shy gulch]

People need to be very careful when they allow all of these "private businesses" control what they can and cannot say in the name of "safety"

[weary obsidian]

so you rather allow misinformation to spread like 2016?

[shy gulch]

Its not up to Jack Dorsey to choose which information is true or false.

[weary obsidian]

yeah its called the collective sane society

[shy gulch]

This is very broad

[mystic ermine]

The issues is really fact checkers

[dusky raft]

I think companies can do what they want to do, they are private

[weary obsidian]

if a statement is made that facts prove is untrue, it should be quelled

[mystic ermine]

Or, people who control that stuff

[shy gulch]

Banning people from saying things you think are wrong means you think people are too stupid to make up their own mind. Very elitist

[mystic ermine]

e.g. there are studies which show that masks in a closed room are basically useless which, makes a lot of sense, but was apparently pulled off twitter, etc

And, yea, I see the fears of morons being morons

[weary obsidian]

trump did not win, there was no wide scale organized voter fraud by the dnc to steal the election

[shy gulch]

I'd rather be able to make up my mind than have it done for me by big tech

[weary obsidian]

trumpers echo chambering that shit just makes people think its true

and hey trwitters allowing you to see that false information still

you can 'make up your mind' to be a dumbass or not to believe it

[mystic ermine]

They've banned accounts for stuff like that

When twitter said that that newspapers site was unbanned from their service, they where still marked as banned

[shy gulch]

I can't believe the left thinks they aren't in an echo chamber when the right is disproportionately silenced on all major platforms. If you don't want them in an echo chamber then stop banning them and forcing them to set up camp elsewhere

[weary obsidian]

yeah twitter jumped the gun on that story a little too fast

[cosmic badge]

The right is the side that believes corporations are people.

Which means Twitter has a right to free speech and expression

[shy gulch]

Who says that

Getting the right and libertarians mixed up here

[mystic ermine]

See, I believe that twitter should have their right to moderate their platform how they see fit

[shy gulch]

cringe

[cosmic badge]

Which means they are entitled to dictate how they moderate their own platform.

[shy gulch]

That makes them a publisher

[weary obsidian]

do you really want to lose the right to control what content is put onto our minecraft communities?

[mystic ermine]

But, I don't believe that they should have the protections that where essentially given to them under the "we can't realistically moderate this", when they're controlling that stuff

[weary obsidian]

be forced to allow advertisements of competitors?

[shy gulch]

If you ever make it so Paper censors my players without any plugins installed I wont use it again

[weary obsidian]

wat

[cosmic badge]

You also have the choice to not use Twitter

[shy gulch]

Its up to the server owners what people say

[mystic ermine]

We really do not care to do that

[cosmic badge]

You have the choice to build a competitor to Twitter

The infrastructure and tooling is there.

[mystic ermine]

If mojang added it, we would not be inclined to remove it

[weary obsidian]

are you suggesting we would put in a filter into paper of our own

[cosmic badge]

You aren't entitled to be on Twitter saying what you want to say.

[mystic ermine]

But, really, why the fuck would we care to moderate what happens on your server?

Outside of specific issues in this community which are imho grounds for just being blasted out of a cannon into orbit

[weary obsidian]

looks like mojang is adding a filter of some fashion likely, but prob done purely client side

[mystic ermine]

But, hey, it's a free market

[shy gulch]

Minecraft servers are a platform. Until Microsoft eventually does that stupid thing they said where theyll delete accounts that commit "hate speech", right now I have the option to make the chat in my server as free as I want

[cosmic badge]

I thought the right loves the free market.

Except when the free market goes against them, I guess.

[mystic ermine]

if we added something like that, you'd be more than welcome to go jump onto a fork which removes that system

[shy gulch]

Yes

You're putting libertarians/ancaps mixed up with conservatives which is frankly, cringe

[cosmic badge]

Libertarians believe in an unregulated free market. We still live in a free market with regulations. I'm not confusing them at all.

[shy gulch]

I don't fully support a laisses faire market

Anyone who does is naiive

[cosmic badge]

Any true Libertarian would be pro-open borders.

Let the private sector deal with it

[shy gulch]

yuck. They can say bye to sovereignty

[mystic ermine]

personally, I support open borders

[shy gulch]

With open borders your vote as a citizen would be worthless

[mystic ermine]

But, you gotta balance with the security implications, etc

[shy gulch]

No thanks

[cosmic badge]

Indeed, but Libertarians are pretty hypocritical like that.

[mystic ermine]

I mean, ideally, we wouldn't need to vote

we'd be in a happy world where people fuck off and mind their own business

[shy gulch]

The non aggression principle is so flawed. Not every problem can be solved by just leaving people alone

[mystic ermine]

Not what I mean

[shy gulch]

You want anarchy?

[mystic ermine]

What I mean is that many issues that people peddle over literally have fuck all impact on them

[shy gulch]

Name one

[mystic ermine]

abortion

[shy gulch]

It affects babies

doesnt affect me if my neighbor kills his dog either

[mystic ermine]

I disagree with abortions, 100% against late stage, but, at early stage, it's very, it doesn't affect me

I don't have any moral superiority to say that it's wrong or right

[shy gulch]

Do you think murder is wrong

[mystic ermine]

I'd say that if you can't afford to have a child you should aim to stop it before that's a thing, but, it doesn't impact me

[shy gulch]

If its wrong to kill a toddler its wrong to commit abortion

[mystic ermine]

is plan b murder?

[shy gulch]

Yes

[mystic ermine]

I mean, the egg isn't even remotely viable when it goes as intended

So, there is hardly a life there to actually murder, especially if it's pre-release

But, as I said, i disagree with abortion, but, I'm not morally superior to say that it's 100% wrong, and I am defo against late-term, but it's not my body

[shy gulch]

My plan b if I got my GF pregnant before we're ready is to put it up for adoption. Anyone who thinks its better to just kill it because they think the baby is better off dead than adopted is borderline sociopathic

[hallow shoal]

at the point in which you take plan b, there's no guarantee the pregnancy is going to go flawlessly (had plan b not been taken that is)

[shy gulch]

Tell me whats wrong with putting that baby up for adoption

[mystic ermine]

Yes, tell me about all the happy children who get to enjoy and love their life in the adoption system

[hallow shoal]

crickets

[shy gulch]

Dude, thats like your doctor being able to kill you because you aren't happy. The happiness of the baby after its born isnt a justification for killing it

[mystic ermine]

Not what I'm saying

[tawny edge]

so you would rather have a kid have to go through possibly years of life changing mental pain than something that they wouldnt even know that happened to them?

[hallow shoal]

Ever heard of kids going in and out of foster care?

[mystic ermine]

What I'm saying is that by saying that you'd toss the child into adoption is that you basically don't give a single shit about the childs life after they're born

[hallow shoal]

My theory is, If you aren't ready for it... don't do it

[mystic ermine]

and if it happens, man the fuck up

🤷‍♂️

[hallow shoal]

^^^^

If you can't take responsibility for your actions... well you're not ready to do that action

[mystic ermine]

if you wanna put the whole, "you had a dick in you, so you can have the child", you gave birth to the child, tossing it off into a system known to cause long lasting issues for the majority of children is hardly any form of moral standing

[shy gulch]

Fix the foster care system then. Unhappiness is preferable to death

[weary lake]

I'd disagree

[cosmic badge]

Death is an experience. What we're talking about can't be experienced.

[weary lake]

Especially seeing how the death would be before the child was even born

[mystic ermine]

The foster care system does need to be fixed

But, people shouldn't be tossing children into a system

[hallow shoal]

imo, the foster care shouldn't have to be as overloaded as it is

[cosmic badge]

Therefore, no person is actually dying.

[shy gulch]

Its 100% a person

[hallow shoal]

if people would take responsibility for their actions, none of this would be a problem

that's the biggest issue in the world, imo

[weary lake]

A couple cells does not constitute a person imo

[mystic ermine]

One of the biggest issues I hear about foster care is the paperwork pleasing

[weary lake]

If you do the abortion in some late phase of the pregnancy I can see how you'd consider that murder, but in early stages? Not at all.

[mystic ermine]

There are dozens of families capable of adopting who'd be great for it and willing to, who can't because they're stuck in the years of cycles of paperwork

[cosmic badge]

Correct, and as cat pointed out, and I agree with, late stage is a no-no.

[hallow shoal]

Don't clinics give out free protection?

[shy gulch]

Its even more interesting that areas with better hospitals have an earlier threshold of viability for premature babies, so if viability is what matters then your worth as a fetus is determined by socioeconomic status

[mystic ermine]

Where the line should be drawn is a complex topic, which, I'm not versed enough in

[shy gulch]

The best thing is to just show a chart of fetal development and asking people which ones okay to kill. Very effective at eliminating that whole notion of "life begins at birth". Most normal people can watch a procedure and feel how wrong it is

[weary lake]

I don't think life begins the moment you come out of the womb, but to say life starts the moment the first cell is formed goes a bit far

[shy gulch]

Whats so hard about just not having sex with someone you don't want to have kids with?

noones forcing you to have sex

[dusky raft]

I think very early stage abortions are fine, however, i personally side with pro life. One of the main things I see with more accessable abortions is a more care free life style that it promotes, erasing the burden of having to care for the thing you gave life to. While there are many reasons for an abortion, I personally think the whole its too much of a burden is a horrible excuse

abstaining and safe sex are the best ways to prevent conception in the first place... Its just we crave the dopamine rush, or whatever chemicals in the body are released.

[mystic ermine]

Exactly, nobody is forcing you to have sex

[weary lake]

I agree that not getting pregnant is better than abortion, yet clearly even people who do not want to children get pregnant. Abortion is a good way to prevent the pregnancy form happening and thereby possibly saving the child a lot of issues further down the line.

[mystic ermine]

if you have a child, take care of it

don't shove it into a fucked up system just to appease your own morals whims

[shy gulch]

To make things more tragic, a lot of the women who never settle down grow up depressed and miserable after their ovaries dry up. They biologically NEED to have children. They end up substituting the baby with pets. After their looks wear off they will grow old and alone with no family. Sad

[mystic ermine]

if you care about the child, care about it

[near glen]

And if you are not ready yet, abort

[weary lake]

If those women can't properly take care of their children, I fully support them getting pets as "substitutes".

[dusky raft]

I also think abortions are horrible for men also,

while not more so on the emotional level, it does promote a more care free sex life

[near glen]

I have two friends of my age that had a abortions and they weren't in the position they are today if they wouldn't have aborted

[dusky raft]

not that we dont already have that...

[shy gulch]

I won't ever have to deal with this myself because my fiancé is prolife, but I couldnt imagine my gf have our baby killed

[near glen]

Both took the pill btw

[shy gulch]

Do people realize that the way that midterm abortions are done are disgusting? They rip that poor thing apart with tongs and then crush the skull

[mystic ermine]

"I won't ever have to deal with this myself because I'm morally superior and would rather throw a child into a system proven to cause harm to him than having an abortion at an early stage before the fetus even has a brain because I'm morally superior"

And, I disagree with mid term too

We know it's fucked up, hence why I only support early stage

[near glen]

Germany has a limit at 12 or 14 weeks btw

[mystic ermine]

Issue is drawing the line where "early" is, but, still

[shy gulch]

Yes I'd rather he/she have a chance to be adopted by a loving family than be dead

[mystic ermine]

24 here, which is, erm... yea...

Ah, yes, the care lottery system

[shy gulch]

My only exception is when the mother will die from giving birth

[mystic ermine]

nice

[weary lake]

adopted by a loving family
After like multiple years spending time in foster care, likely mentally unstable

[dusky raft]

@shy gulch which is rare

[weary lake]

Hoping it's actually a loving family

[dusky raft]

with modern medicine and surgery, its a very rare complication

[shy gulch]

Hey, ideally people just wouldn't have casual sex with strangers so adoption is compromise

[near glen]

I love how mostly man argue against abortions btw

[shy gulch]

Sexist ^

[mystic ermine]

it's not a compromise

It's fucking moronic

[tawny edge]

how is that sexist?

[near glen]

No? Just look at this channel? Nobody here can actually understand it

[mystic ermine]

"I believe that if people have sex, they should deal with the consequences of their actions, but, imma just toss my issue in the system so I don't have to care about it"

[cosmic badge]

Make it so people who toss their kids to the system are financially obligated to support them.

[dusky raft]

I did just talk about the men aspect of it, which is the already care free sex life getting even more care free...

[cosmic badge]

Watch stance on abortion and using the foster care system as a dumpster change rela quick

[near glen]

I just have never heard a sane argument against abortions

[tawny edge]

so youre against abortion because its unfair to the child, although youre pro put them in the adoption system which is putting an unfair stress in their life?

[near glen]

That isn't influenced by religious believes

[shy gulch]

How do you know everyone here is male

[near glen]

If you don't want an abortion because of your believes, that's totally fine, that your choice. Just let others have their choice too

[mystic ermine]

Because this is a community and we interact with each other?

everyone speaking right now afaik is a guy

[weary lake]

Except cat, he is a cat.

[near glen]

To argue in american terms, having an abortion, is freedom of choice for the affect woman

[cosmic badge]

It's hard to argue about choice when the people you're arguing against believe it's murder, it's a convenient way to dismiss the choice argument because clearly murder is unacceptable.

[near glen]

That's scientifically bullshit tho, so that argument can be dismissed

If it's early enough, its not murder

[shy gulch]

Is bacteria life

[mystic ermine]

imho, people who have children and toss them into the system coz they can't have children should be castrated, change my mind

complex life? no

[near glen]

How many flys and ants have you killed you murder!

[weary lake]

It's living

[shy gulch]

The statement "its not alive" is false

[mystic ermine]

Are you gonna throw away all your cleaning products coz you don't wanna murder the precious bacteria

[cosmic badge]

We can agree it's life. Is it a person? No.

[tawny edge]

who said it wasnt alive?

[mystic ermine]

Stop conflating

[shy gulch]

This is so frustrating. If you fundamentally believe its not a life then what else can I say

[cosmic badge]

It's a form of life, not even complex life. There's much more complex life you kill on a daily basis, unknowingly.

[weary lake]

Those couple of cells in the early stages I don't consider human.

[shy gulch]

I am in utter shock from this statement

I dont even know what to say

[near glen]

Then don't

Lol

[mystic ermine]

We feel the same discussing with you

[cosmic badge]

If you truly value "life" then you should feel more guilty about all the complex life you destroy on a daily basis instead of worrying about a couple cells.

Eat meat? Murderer. Fumigate? Genocide. Lol

[weary lake]

I do agree with you that if the adoption system was not complete garbage and children would come out of it relatively okay, that could be a better option than abortion. But currently, no, not at all.

[shy gulch]

Im not equating human life to bugs.

[near glen]

What about cows?

[shy gulch]

I have met people who think its not life at all, my bad

[near glen]

Pigs

[cosmic badge]

That's the thing. It's not human life.

[shy gulch]

How is it not human life

[near glen]

Heck, I even eat horses

[cosmic badge]

It will develop into a person given enough time.

[shy gulch]

What happens if you leave it alone?

[near glen]

It's not human live yet

[cosmic badge]

Until then, it's not a person.

[shy gulch]

Whats your criteria for a person

[near glen]

What's yours?

[shy gulch]

Conception

[near glen]

My definition is that human live forms sometime after 14 weeks

[weary lake]

I think when we had this discussion before someone mentioned that after 20 weeks babies could start to feel pain. I don't know if this is true, but I'd say that's an adequate point to call it human.

[shy gulch]

If left alone to natural processes it will become a baby, its a human.

[tawny edge]

i dont get how you could consider anything a human life before it can even mildly think for itself

[near glen]

What about all the sperm you jack of then?

[shy gulch]

My toilet nut isnt gonna become a baby

[near glen]

But it could

[shy gulch]

[near glen]

That's how we feel about your points

[cosmic badge]

Fortunately that's how the rest of the world feels about it too lol

[shy gulch]

My toilet nut can because a human...?

[weary lake]

It's really what you define as natural processes there, because if the mother wouldn't eat or drink, that baby would also die. Is the mother eating and drinking a "natural process"?

[shy gulch]

Damn I committed genocide. Based.

[near glen]

If you would have a woman in reach to aim at 😂

[weary lake]

If humans having sex is a naturally process, then your sperm not ending in a woman's womb would kill the possible babies that would have become from that sperm.

In that case, "if left to natural processes it would become a baby"

[shy gulch]

I just said I consider it life after conception

[weary lake]

If left alone to natural processes it will become a baby, its a human.

[near glen]

Ok, if toilet nut doesn't count, what if I pull out early? I aborted a natural process too, right?

[shy gulch]

My jizz rag hasnt created any life yet

You pulled out and didnt fertilize an egg

[near glen]

Heck, I can't even use a condom anymore then, because I prevented a natural process

Also, gotta love how religious ppl argue for natural processes, but don't believe in evolution

[shy gulch]

I'm not religious

You understand a seed isn't alive until you put water on it yes?

[weary lake]

I'd say the seed it alive when it actually starts sprouting

[cosmic badge]

You say conception, sounds like a lot of us say "the point at which it can perceive experiences"

[weary lake]

Or rather at that point, the plant.

[shy gulch]

The sprouting is when it becomes an embryo

the baby is when the flowers develop

or rather, when roots appear its an embryo

[tawny edge]

well a seed is self sufficient from the beginning

[near glen]

These analogies make no sense

[tawny edge]

unlike a fetus

[weary lake]

It's a plant, for all I care you chop all flowers of it

[shy gulch]

And when the stem appears and didnt come out of the surface

Toddlers arent self sufficient either

[mystic ermine]

seeds are alive before you water them

they're just dormant, doing nothing

[near glen]

I am just happy that I don't live america

[shy gulch]

since when

[mystic ermine]

Do not ping

[shy gulch]

Replies are pings?

[mystic ermine]

2. Literally, google

[weary lake]

America, the land of freedom where people are against freedom

[near glen]

If you don't disable the ping yes

[near glen]

Ping

[shy gulch]

hmm

sorry

[tawny edge]

turn the @ to off

[shy gulch]

ah my bad

I thought it was basically just a fancier quoting feature

[near glen]

It is, with the option to send a ping

[cosmic badge]

I wonder if this Georgia boycott will catch on. One can dream 😛

[near glen]

That is active by default cause dumcord

[near glen]

What we boycotting?

[cosmic badge]

Not us. Republcans

Why vote in a rigged election? Just boycott it! 😄

[near glen]

Ah yes

[weary lake]

You... boycott an election?

[near glen]

If you can't win the system abolish it

[mystic ermine]

I mean, you gotta admit it's cancerous af for people to run around telling people to move over to the state to vote

[cosmic badge]

I assume it's not going to catch on, but it's basically just Republicans being discouraged to vote in the Georgia runoffs because it's rigged

[near glen]

The whole election system.is cancer

[shy gulch]

We should have never allowed mail in ballots.

[weary lake]

I mean, America wasn't a democracy anyway, without elections that is at least clearer /s

[cosmic badge]

Why? Unless you can prove election fraud, why is more ways to vote a bad thing?

[mystic ermine]

The issue isn't mail in

[cosmic badge]

Giving people more ways to vote sounds like a great thing.

[mystic ermine]

The issue is the blatent inability to secure the system to the point where both sides can stfu

[cosmic badge]

Anyone arguing otherwise, in the absence of evidence of any election fraud, just sounds like they're trying to suppress votes.

I guess expats and military shouldn't vote then

[near glen]

Why? Isn't the self proclaimed leader of the free world able to hold a secure election? All other first world countries manage to do that btw

[cosmic badge]

Oh wait, that's absentee

😛

[near glen]

That's something I have yet to understand, what's the difference?

[cosmic badge]

But if we're tossing out mail in votes, why not toss out absentee as well.

[near glen]

What's the difference between absentee and mail in?

[cosmic badge]

To my knowledge there isn't much of a difference at all

[mystic ermine]

absentee is "i'm gonna be out of state", afaik

generally for stuff like deployment

[cosmic badge]

Yeah, but there is no further distinction as far as I know

So people living overseas, or military deployed overseas would request an absentee ballot. Where as in state people can request a mail ballot to vote by mail. Both go through the mail.

If you are against voting by mail, then it's reasonable to assume that you're also against absentee voting.

Why should only overseas people be entitled to vote by mail? People living in-state lead just as busy lives and some have just as difficult of a time voting in person.

[shy gulch]

The fate of your country is more important than how busy you are

[weary lake]

You can always move /shrug

[near glen]

Why are elections on working days then?

[cosmic badge]

If you believe so strongly it's that important, maybe election day should be a national holiday.

[shy gulch]

sure

[cosmic badge]

Fight for that.

[near glen]

Elections here are on Sundays

(stores are closed here on Sundays)

[cosmic badge]

There's also the matter of polling stations being restricted in certain communities.

With limited hours, far away from certain communities etc

[near glen]

Basically every school is a polling station here

[weary lake]

If I need to vote it's a 2 min walk, then there's no queue, then a 2 min walk back, even if it's on a workday I can just do it in the evening.

[near glen]

So no polling station is full

(I always vote by mail anyways cause am lazy)

[cosmic badge]

Some people living in communities where the only polling station is 50 miles away open only 5 hours a day

This is BY DESIGN

To suppress votes.

Mail in voting completely bypasses that and Republicans are mad about it.

[near glen]

American elections just make me sad

[cosmic badge]

Because suddenly more black people and other disenfranchised voters can now... wait for it... vote.

[weary lake]

American elections just make me sad

And now the grammar is wrong, well was worth I try I guess

[cosmic badge]

I still don't see the argument against mail-in voting any way. Nobody's provided any substantial evidence of election fraud by mail-in votes.

And if mail in voting is somehow insecure, then so is absentee voting.

[near glen]

Can the solution is not to remove it, but to make sure it is secure

As every other country does it

[cosmic badge]

It already is, as nobody has been able to prove it isn't.

Hm, I haven't looked at the status of Trump's election challenge lawsuits recently. I wonder how many more have been dismissed

[weary obsidian]

gasp its so horrible that a voter voted legally from home vs standing around tons of people during a pandemic

there is one thing ill agree on, the whole postmarked by election day but received later was unnecessary

should just put a must be received by election day, your ass better mail it off at least 5 days before

[cosmic badge]

Was that the votes in PA? Didn't those get tossed out?

[weary obsidian]

no they tried, but didnt succeed.

a rule was changed to allow it, but they tried to say it shouldnt of been changed

[cosmic badge]

Ah, had they succeeded, would it have changed the outcome? But yeah, I could get behind that.

[weary obsidian]

well hard to know how many were "that late"

PA Mail in votes wasnt allowed to be counted towards end, even if it was received weeks before

so most was likely all received on time

[cosmic badge]

That was a situation very specific to PA, right?

[weary obsidian]

get them all in fast, have them all processed, so they can be quickly counted on election day, and problem solved, no delays

other states allowed it too, just they tried to challenge PA because it WASNT allowed before

NC allowed like 8 days after IF it was postmarked

by election day

i think a fair compromise is 5 day deadline to mail it in pre election day, gives post office time to get it there, this is all local mail, it doesnt take long to move this shit

and its priority too

[cosmic badge]

Yeah but at the end of the day each state has the right to choose how they conduct their elections, as I understand with PA it was an issue of the state's Supreme Court basically "rewriting" legislation?

By extending the deadline

[tough cedar]

that was a fun catch up

[restive seal]

Fun? I lost brain cells multiple times.

I suppose if the right ones die off I could get rewired to imagine this was fun.

[tough cedar]

oh, i meant "fun"

[cosmic badge]

Voter registration is already secure. Again prove it isn't. The problem with voter ID in America is that the process would be politicized. Some people would have easy access, some wouldn't.

On paper it sounds nice. In practice, it would be abused to suppress votes.

We already know in places where some form of voter ID is implemented that it disproportionately affects minorities and the impoverished.

[cosmic badge]

America isn't every other country.

America would need a system of healthcare that works for America, but it wouldn't be impractical to model such a system. But the ACA is an example of how trying to do healthcare "like other countries" doesn't work for America, too.

[tough cedar]

do some states not require you to have a drivers license or whatever to vote?

then why do I show the person who gives me the ticket my driver license

do I not need to do that?

[cosmic badge]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws_in_the_United_States#Laws_by_state

[tough cedar]

ok thank you that's what i was looking for

[cosmic badge]

This is how we have data on how voter ID laws affect different communities.

Because some states do have them.

[tough cedar]

and this is texas so Strict Photo ID lol

[cosmic badge]

Yes Texas has had some of its voter ID laws stricken down, too.

For being blatantly discriminatory.

They refused some forms of photo ID while allowing others. The result was that it was much harder to vote for certain people, such as college students and poor people.

We have this thing called voter registration. It works great.

Unless you can prove otherwise. (You can't, nobody has to date)

[weary obsidian]

did you know, you cant just randomly go to multiple polling places and vote at each one? gasp, its like the systems designed to ensure that 1 person gets 1 vote!

your information of where your expected to vote is at your registered polling place on election date, and if you voted early, should already have removed you from those records. if you show up at multiple places, theyll be like "we dont have a ballot for you"

and please please educate me on evidence of large scale voting as someone else. Surely when that person goes to vote and told theyve already voted that wouldnt be raising all kinds of alarms....
Voting for dead relatives is the thing that can happen, but guess what, thats individuals being passionate about their choice and nothing to do with systemic voter fraud! and happens on both sides. Typically elderly vote republican so more likely to benefit republicans there

and improving the dead voting scenario doesnt require ID's, it requires better government data processing that death records can instantly notify voting databases and have them removed

[weary obsidian]

It's time republicans put their fucking money where their mouth is about less government and more state control:

https://norml.org/blog/2020/12/02/more-act-approved-by-house-rules-committee/

Lets see who the hypocrites are!

[foggy fern]

https://xkcd.com/2030/

xkcd: Voting Software

There are lots of very smart people doing fascinating work on cryptographic voting protocols. We should be funding and encouraging them, and doing all our elections with paper ballots until everyone currently working in that field has retired.

[dusky raft]

I dont see anything wrong with that bill

[visual topaz]

🇹 🇷 🇺 🇲 🇵

[broken raven]

🇸 🇭 🇺 🇹

jk jk

[near glen]

Stay civil pls

[broken raven]

Oki

[light sentinel]

they told me to come here for capitalism bad

[zenith basin]

no capitals in that sentence so your statement checks out

[broken raven]

xd

[elder portal]

https://www.businessinsider.com/heidi-stirrup-trump-doj-plant-pressured-evidence-election-fraud-report-2020-12

[restive seal]

Was really hoping I wouldn't need to see more images of that smug teen, but here we are.

[elder portal]

Lol

Well, it's good news at least

Trump put a bunch of people loyal to him in top positions in various agencies

And they're all failing so far

[restive seal]

What, I don't mean what you posted. 😛

[elder portal]

I wondered what you meant by teen

Are you talking about the kid who shot and killed people with a gun he didn't and couldn't own and got posted bail?

Speaking of textbook systemic racism..

[broken raven]

god please no

[foggy fern]

Nah, this teen is the one with the MAGA hat in DC

[elder portal]

I might be out of the loop on that one

[foggy fern]

iirc there was some native group there looking for someone to argue with and that teen and his friends were looking for someone to heckle then another native man got in between them and tried to lecture the kids on just walking away from those kind of situations

Ended up with a picture of some native folks yelling at this smirking teen wearing a MAGA hat

[weary obsidian]

that situation wasnt a good moment for the left, the left spewed a lot of false information around that

[foggy fern]

Eh, there was a lot of spin but I don't think there was anything outright false

I know the lawsuits have been settled but the settlements are private so who knows what happened there

[weary obsidian]

its been a long time so i dont remember full details, but i remember actually kinda siding with the right on that one a bit

the native group acted badly

[foggy fern]

He might have received millions in exchange for not making them look bad or he might have been told to accept the token payment (contracts have to be "equal" to be enforceable) so he didn't waste tons on legal fees

Oh yeah, and that's the spin part

No one was talking about the original group, only the one that intervened and was talking to the kids

Even though the original group started it

The kids took the bait

[restive seal]

I think I checked out around the point I heard the kids were there to attend an anti-womens-rights rally.

[elder portal]

Who needs equality anyway?

[restive seal]

Certainly not women! /s

[elder portal]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/us/politics/house-marijuana.html

[dusky raft]

I find it odd how judges can order a president to restore an executive order

that just doesnt sound like a good idea

[cosmic badge]

That bill is dead in the Senate, unless they plan on amending it and sending it back to the House.

[bleak echo]

do you know understand how separation of powers works?

literally go back to middle school social studies

[dusky raft]

me?

[bleak echo]

yes

[cosmic badge]

McConnell is definitely going to take issue with some of the text in that bill.

[dusky raft]

A judge is meant to uphold law, not take whatever executive does and run with it

[cosmic badge]

The judicial also upholds constitutionality.

[dusky raft]

yes

[cosmic badge]

I'm not familiar with the topic at hand, but I assume it had to do with something being unconstitutional, maybe 😛

[dusky raft]

judge orders trump to restore daca

[cosmic badge]

Cool, and unless the Supreme Court steps in, sounds like they made the right call.

[dusky raft]

so a judge can reinforce trumps travel ban?

for example

[fast flame]

They could if they wanted to

[dusky raft]

I dont see it as likely that would be added back in, that is a very dangerous move

[fast flame]

But I don’t think they will

[cosmic badge]

On Friday, the judge said that invalidated the memo Wolf had issued in July suspending DACA for new applications and reducing how long renewals were valid from two years down to one year.```

I assume this is it?

Maybe don't act unlawfully, I guess.

[dusky raft]

Is daca a law?

[cosmic badge]

See the first part of that quote.

Sounds more like a procedural issue.

[dusky raft]

what was unlawful? I'm not seeing much, ill see about pulling up what the judges had to say

[cosmic badge]

Sounds like Wolf at the time the memo was issued was not in a legal position to enact those changes.

[dusky raft]

So apparently its meant to be some line of succession in how positions are setup

[cosmic badge]

Seems like, and Wolf was improperly appointed.

Therefore he doesn't have the authority do what he did.

Again, seems like a procedural issue, not necessarily the judicial branch overturning executive orders.

[dusky raft]

so technically its restoration because some guy didnt go through the proper channels

[cosmic badge]

Right

I'm sure if a legal successor did it, it would be fine.

But 11 days later, Wolf issued a memorandum cutting renewal permits from two years to one and blocking all new applications.

That prompted a November ruling by Garaufis saying that Wolf was not lawfully serving as DHS acting secretary when he issued the changes "because the Department of Homeland Security failed to follow its order of succession, as it was lawfully designated under the Homeland Security Act."```

That sums it up quite nicely.

DHS should learn to follow the law. 🙂

Nice, guess we can expect to see the DHS website updated soon:
Court documents said that DHS has until Monday to post a public notice "displayed prominently on its website and on the websites of all other relevant agencies, that it is accepting first-time requests for consideration of deferred action under DACA."

From Wikipedia, lel

(unlawful)

[dusky raft]

well thats going to be a shitshow

[cosmic badge]

On August 25, President Trump announced that he would nominate Wolf to be confirmed by the Senate as the permanent Secretary of Homeland Security. The nomination was formally submitted to the Senate on September 10. The same day, FEMA Administrator Pete Gaynor, who was highest official in the proper Acting Secretary succession order, issued a memo designating the same order of succession that was intended to be established by McAleenan, in order to make Wolf the proper Acting Secretary. Wolf then issued a memo reaffirming his previous actions as Acting Secretary. However, on November 13, DHS admitted in a court ruling that Gaynor's memo had apparently been issued about an hour before the Senate nomination had been made, which may affect its legality. This administration is a shitshow.

We really are fortunate that this administration is so incompetent. Things could've been much worse.

[opaque prairie]

we really are. watching a slow motion coup attempt like, terrifying to think what it would be like if anyone competent was involved

[shut vine]

DACA was not a law, it was an executive order since the House refused to pass the desired law.

DREAM was the bill/law.

Regarding the legality, all that has to happen is they now reissue the memo.

[cosmic badge]

I'm not sure they can yet, as Wolf is still unlawfully in his position.

Once they resolve that, sure. They can reissue the memo.

This is apparently the third judge to rule that Chad Wolf was unlawfully appointed. DHS is fucked.

[weary obsidian]

ok, anyone in these states, vote these fuckers out!
Reps. Cheri Bustos and Dan Lipinski of Illinois, Henry Cuellar of Texas, Conor Lamb of Pennsylvania, Chris Pappas of New Hampshire and Collin Peterson of Minnesota.

im glad this vote happened to finally get fuckers on the record

[plush crypt]

wat they do doe

[weary obsidian]

dems who voted against legalizing weed

well decrmininilizing

i guess its slightly diff

[plush crypt]

not all dems support that

[weary obsidian]

yeah and fuck them, vote em out

[plush crypt]

what if theyre kept in by the votes of those who dont support it

[weary obsidian]

hard considering most of society supports it

weed is like the largest unifying bipartisan agenda we have at the people level

[cosmic badge]

I believe popular support for decriminalization is 2 to 1 or something crazy. It has insanely high support.

[weary obsidian]

and those who dontare prob hypocritcal bitches who drink alchohol

[plush crypt]

on that note, idk if its legal here actually

[weary obsidian]

you cant drink alchohol and be against weed or else your a hypocrite

[plush crypt]

doubt it

[weary obsidian]

and i speak this as someone whos never even used weed lol

[cosmic badge]

Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol are undeniably worse than consuming cannabis.

[weary obsidian]

but if edibles are legalized i def will try it

but prob wont do much due to cost

[plush crypt]

it is still illegal here 😔

[weary obsidian]

a lifetime of being exposed to cigarettes stigmatizes smoking form to me heh

[cosmic badge]

Personally I'm taking an extended break from weed, because I have an unhealthy relationship with substances in general, but that isn't to say it's weed's fault. It could happen with smoking or drinking, I have a hard time moderating so I stay away 😛

But I support everyone's right to consume.

[weary obsidian]

id much rather be around a hardcore stoner than alchoholic

[cosmic badge]

100%

[weary obsidian]

how many weed related domestic abuse cases do you hear about compared to booze (i actually cant recall ever hearing of one)

[cosmic badge]

I haven't heard of any.

[weary obsidian]

wish dems couldof taken senate and finally got this important bill passed 😦

[cosmic badge]

McConnell definitely isn't gonna bring it to a vote. He isn't even going to bother trying to amend it, regardless of what the bill says.

He's not going to give Democrats this win.

[weary obsidian]

if trump was smart he would of took this as a win for him and he def would of won reelection then

[cosmic badge]

I believe Trump has it within his power to demand the rescheduling of controlled substances, his executive authority to do so is baked into the Controlled Substances Act.

[weary obsidian]

well then biden would too, but that wont solve the expunging issue

lol unless biden can mass pardon

[cosmic badge]

Right. The bill tackles that and also redirects funding from taxes for some other things too, which I'm sure Republicans will take issue with.

[weary obsidian]

oh man "bring me a pardon for every weed charge" > bidens signing papers his entire term

[cosmic badge]

Shouldn't be too hard to do a pardon for every non-violent weed offense.

But I'm sure the prison industry wouldn't be very happy about that.

[weary obsidian]

fuck em

https://tenor.com/bckT6.gif

[cosmic badge]

Actual legalized slavery.

[weary obsidian]

in some cases maybe, but many of them want to work

[cosmic badge]

The 13th amendment actually legalizes slavery as a form of punishment, which is fucked too.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

[weary obsidian]

prison itself is really a form of slavery

i dont see how its much different

[cosmic badge]

Quite a few plantations were turned into prisons too, actually.

[weary obsidian]

mainly difference of how one ended up there, slavery = forced, prison = punishment

afk running to store

[dusky raft]

private prisons have made a living on the whole war on drugs for a long time, It really needs to end for cannabis

However, I am not against prisons doing manual labor as long as the prisoner consents and gets some benefits out of it, a lower prison sentence in return

But yeah, I would like to see better education when it comes to cannabis, along with other substances rather than the scare tactic

[shut vine]

Court ruled that Trump himself can end it. Just Wolf can't.

SCOTUS made the ruling on Trumps ability to, not the Federal judge.

[cosmic badge]

Cabinet members are the one carrying out executive orders

I'm guessing an illegitimate acting secretary wouldn't be authorized even if Trump told him to do it

Which sets up an interesting precedent for Biden if McConnell maintains power and refuses to confirm cabinet members, potentially.

This issue seems to be specifically about an improper line of succession, though.

So as long as that's taken care of, it's all green

Even if it's not a confirmed cabinet member

[shut vine]

Yeah there is a contingency for this situation though, the next in line assumes the duties for the sake of compliance with EO's.

But definitely interesting in Biden's case since most people would be chosen by Trump when he gets in.

[cosmic badge]

To my knowledge there's nothing wrong with having acting, unconfirmed department heads, it just has to be proper which in Wolf's case it seems it wasn't.

So DHS is effectively crippled I guess until they fix that

[shut vine]

Also the specific judge has argued that yea, constitutional experts/scholars are saying the real issue is they circumvented process by waiting for him to be confirmed by the Senate for another position before nominating him. So he was confirmed as under secretary and assigned secretary on the same day.

Yeah, they should just put him as nominated, and promote the second in line to acting temporarily.

[cosmic badge]

Not sure why they haven't sorted it out yet, maybe just because it's a lame duck period

[shut vine]

Pete Gaynor should be the next in line I think.

[cosmic badge]

Yeah I think that's right

The FEMA dude

[shut vine]

The other issue with the judges order is it's unlawful as well.. since he's ordering an unlawfully elected official (as he see's it) to do something only a lawfully elected official can do.

[cosmic badge]

Right, the argument isn't that Trump doesn't have the authority to rescind or change DACA. Just that he can't have someone unlawfully appointed do it

[shut vine]

Correct

[cosmic badge]

In conservative circles they are spinning it as activists judges though lol

[shut vine]

But the judge is ordering the unlawfully elected official to issue a memo to rescind the original memo, which he's saying he can't lawfully issue memos.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck.

In my opinion.

[cosmic badge]

I don't think it's rescind the memo itself, but directing DHS to restore things back to the way they were.

because the memo is illegitimate

[shut vine]

Yeah, but I'm 99% sure he's directed Wolf to do things as Secretary. Maybe I read it wrong or the article was er, paraphrasing.

[cosmic badge]

If that were the case then yeah that would be pretty amusing.

I don't know why Wolf is still even acting secretary lol

Maybe it would've made sense for the judge to enforce the proper line of succession

Looks like the judge instructed the DHS (not necessarily Wolf) to restore DACA

Not sure how that works 😛

Lol "activist judge" Chase Jennings, a DHS spokesperson, criticized Friday's order but said the department would comply with it, pending an appeal. "DHS wholly disagrees with this decision by yet another activist judge acting from his own policy preferences. Judge Garaufis's latest decision, similar to his earlier inaccurate ruling, is clearly not sound law or logic," Jennings said in a statement to CBS News. "We will abide by this decision while we work with (the Justice Department) on next steps to appeal."

The Homeland Security Act of 2002 seems to clearly outline the proper order of succession, maybe DHS should've followed the law 😛

https://www.gao.gov/products/B-331650 Upon Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen's resignation on April 10, 2019, the official who assumed the title of Acting Secretary had not been designated in the order of succession to serve upon the Secretary's resignation. Because the incorrect official assumed the title of Acting Secretary at that time, subsequent amendments to the order of succession made by that official were invalid and officials who assumed their positions under such amendments, including Chad Wolf and Kenneth Cuccinelli, were named by reference to an invalid order of succession. We have not reviewed the legality of other actions taken by these officials; we are referring the matter to the Inspector General of DHS for review.

[restive seal]

Overall, we rate Townhall Right Biased and Questionable based on consistent one-sided reporting that always favors the right and numerous failed fact checks.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/townhall/

[fast flame]

townhall is as far as it gets from legitimate, unbiased news.

[tough cedar]

mcconnell won't let another one pass unless companies get immunity from covid lawsuits

[cosmic badge]

Dems really need to win the Georgia runoffs

[tough cedar]

both mcconnell and her "decided" to block corona relief

they just did it for different reasons

what unpassable things

do you have an article from a reputable source that states these things too?

or some shortened version of the bill i could look at

idc if it's biased, as long as it's reputable

you can be biased and reputable

spreading fake news is what makes you untrustworthy

[mystic ermine]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-23/airlines-would-get-37-billion-in-grants-in-pelosi-s-virus-plan | for the airliners one i'd imagine

[tough cedar]

oh hey

they put it as other matters in the text

very cool

yea idk kinda lame thing to do if it's that simple

[elder portal]

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55203838

That's fun

[shy gulch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVP_60Hm4P8

have fun deboonking

[near glen]

Oooor we let authorities do that?

Because you know, that's what they do

If something is wrong, they will find it, if it's not, them there is nothing wrong

[shy gulch]

Archived in case it gets taken down by the terrible Google corporation

[near glen]

Kek

Just had time to read into that

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-georgia-media-social-media-e9a73462e39e7aa39683f0f582a6659e

Seems fine

[shy gulch]

Thanks AP

Since when does the media decide who wins elections

so dishonest

[near glen]

It doesn't decide?

They have just called it

That's a big difference

[shy gulch]

Then why do they plaster it under every video about the election

Thats not how people are interpreting it

Its extremely misleading

[near glen]

AP doesn't decide it. AP looks at all the data and says there is no way trump can win

It's probability

[shy gulch]

Need I remind you what the media said in 2016

[near glen]

Those were predictions, that's very different

[shy gulch]

how

[near glen]

Because you look at data before the actual vote?

Now we have the actual voting data

[restive seal]

Prediction based on pre-vote polls are not the same as calling the election based on actual vote reports. Do you truly not know the difference? I'm sure we can explain to you as necessary

[shy gulch]

I just think its gonna be amusing if/when this is over and the 2000 election happens again

*****President Al Gore

[near glen]

This is also different...

Urg

[shy gulch]

Then the media will go back to the same crap they did for the last 4 years, like Russia Russia Russia

[near glen]

Why am I even bothering

[shy gulch]

Seriously why do you bother? You get your information from media companies that I think are malicious and evil, and will do anything to push their agenda.

Anything I say you will think is false and any fact-checking you do I will think is false

[restive seal]

You're really sounding like a low effort troll with this. You're going to need to try harder to compete with minecraft community trolls.

[shy gulch]

I'm not a troll

[near glen]

Yes, one side is thinking and believing and the other side it looking for facts

[shy gulch]

I have a hard time believing companies that pushed the story that Trump hired hookers to piss on Obamas bed

Or that drinking milk is a sign of white supremacy

Or that 👌 is a hate symbol

Or the whole lie that Trump hates mexicans and called them rapists when he clearly was talking about MS-13 gang members, who are indeed, rapists and murderers.

What about that time they showed the footage of war in the middle east and it was actually just recordings of a gun range

[near glen]

What you are doing wrong is speaking about the media, when these mistakes (intential or not) were made many different outlets for many different reasons

Talking about the big media just makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist

[shy gulch]

Conspiracy Theorist was a term coined by the CIA to attempt to delegitimize anyone who criticizes the government

[near glen]

No?...

[shy gulch]

Theres plenty of theories pushed by the media that arent considered conspiracies

like Russiagate

even though it 100% is

[near glen]

You do realize that the term conspiracy theory exists outside of the US? Lol

[shy gulch]

Yes

The internet also exists outside the US despite the fact that our military invented it

[restive seal]

What's Russiagate? There's multiple Russia-related stories, I want to be sure I'm responding to the correct one for you.

[shy gulch]

The entire concept of Russia rigging our election

[tough cedar]

They didn't rig the election

[shy gulch]

"Big Media is just a conspiracy"

[tough cedar]

They just ran a disinformation campaign

That influenced the election

[near glen]

It's the normal troll farms

They exist for all sides

[shy gulch]

Yes Trump won because Russian people posted boomer memes on facebook

[tough cedar]

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/sinclair-broadcast-group/

[near glen]

That stuff, if done right, has an undeniable impact on public opinion

[shy gulch]

Not because of a populist movement where americans are tired of their jobs being outsourced to foreign countries that use slave labor to create cheap products

Completely smugly undermines the entire movement the guy has created

[tough cedar]

Ah, yes, the movement to destroy America's reputation

[shy gulch]

Majority of Trump's supporters don't give a shit about his mean tweets

[tough cedar]

The movement to make America isolationist any irrelevant

And*

[shy gulch]

We don't need Asian slave labor

We don't need middle eastern oil

[near glen]

If you don't need middle eastern oil, why is murica always invading them?

[tough cedar]

So we don't use our own oil of course

[shy gulch]

Because of our corrupt military and government

[tough cedar]

So when everyone else runs out we still have ours

[restive seal]

This isn't news to anyone here. We know there's 70 million people who don't care about racism or sexism as long as the right people are hurt. 😛

[shy gulch]

Trump isn't racist nor sexist.

[near glen]

He only says racist or sexist things, right?

That doesn't make someone a racist or sexist, right?

😂 😂 😂 😂

[restive seal]

I seem to recall Trump explaining how he could just grab women in their genitals without permission. Did I imagine that?

[near glen]

Man, I am so glad trump is gone in a few weeks and the world can go back to normal

[shy gulch]

What do you mean when you say he's racist? When he calls Warren "Pocahontas"? Thats mocking how she grifted off of a lie about being "Native american" her entire life to take advantage of programs for them

[tough cedar]

Maybe 4 years of Biden will do you good sir, it'll allow you to see that trump wasn't that great of a president

Unless you're so deep into this there is no way to pull yourself out

[shy gulch]

Ill see it go back to Bush and Obama days. More endless wars, more tax increases, more jobs and production going to China. Can't wait

[near glen]

You will see

Hopefully biden just gets sick and we get somebody actually progressive

[shy gulch]

I will see the media write fluff pieces all day on Biden because hes their guy

[mystic ermine]

I mean, Pelosi already has showed signs that she's considering that for biden

and then we'll have Kamala, who literally pulled out before she flopped in her homestate or whatever it was

[shy gulch]

Kamala the prosecutor. Kamala "Locks people in prison for non-violent drug offenses" Harris

[restive seal]

Mike "denied that smoking kills in goddamn 2001" Pence. Are we doing weirdly long nickname day today? I thought we did that on Mondays.

[shy gulch]

Kamala and Biden created the terrible system that progressives complain about

[tough cedar]

Biden isn't a progressive so

Woohoo, idk your point

WOOHOO? I mean sooooo

[near glen]

Donald "grab them by the pussy" trump

[restive seal]

Oddly, EK Moon skipped right over this when they claimed Trump isn't sexist. Weird 🤔

[tough cedar]

It's mobile typing time

[tough cedar]

Quick, find an image of Trump tweeting something racist

[shy gulch]

Trump was explaining how groupies let you do whatever you want when youre rich and powerful. They let you grab them by the pussy. He didnt say "I love molesting women who dont want to be touched"

[mystic ermine]

He's not a progressive, but he's the one heavily responsible for a bill which threw a disproportional number of the black community into the jail system over trivial crimes such as possession, not to mention his random comments over his 47 odd years against the POC community, and the LGBT community...

[shy gulch]

Bout fucking time

[mystic ermine]

I mean, locker room talk and all, I bet a fair chunk of us have said that there was some girl in our year or whatever who was hot

his wording was defo in the creepy area, but, I find it hard to hold against him

[shy gulch]

By the way, the Proud Boys aren't a white supremist group. So tired of people saying that. Their leader is literally a black cuban

[near glen]

Oh biden is definitely not perfect

But he's better than trump, and maybe he learned something in the past years

And at least he's not ignoring scientist

[restive seal]

"In our year" - I'm sorry hold up. This wasn't said as a teenager. It stops being acceptable then and he was well outside that age range.

[shy gulch]

He was marveling at what groupies let you do. Guess we also gotta cancel every rock group ever

[restive seal]

Can we at least agree on them being neo-fascist?

[shy gulch]

No we can't

[restive seal]

Ahahaha okay.

[tough cedar]

No we can't they're just a reasonable group of people

Def nothing wrong, they have a black Cuban as a leader

[shy gulch]

It was founded by Gavin Mcinnes, who is basically a right leaning libertarian. He left because he wanted to focus on his family. And you're seriously gonna make me cringe if you claim hes also somehow some ethnonationalist

Who on the right isn't a fascist to you

[restive seal]

Alright, I lack the time and patience to continue discussing this with somebody who clearly fell out of a portal from an alternate dimension where things are very different, including acceptability of strawmanning and factuality. Talk to y'all later!

[shy gulch]

bye nerd

[plush crypt]

?kick @shy gulch obvious troll

[red mountain]

EK | Moon#0832 was kicked | obvious troll

[plush crypt]

why do yall try lol

[near glen]

I try to understand such ppl

Can only fight the right wing if you know why they think so backwards

[restive seal]

I second this statement. I have met people in real life just like this, but they have usually stormed off after a single wild belief is countered with fact so it's hard to continue understanding.

Lost causes? Possibly. But I still try to be optimistic that we can pull people back from the bizarro world they've been taught, within a generation.

[shy gulch]

what do you guys think of maximum age for voting and lowering minimum age for voting

[restive seal]

Maximum? No thanks. Minimum? What would you say it should be?

[near glen]

If we have a minimum, we should have a maximum

If a 16 year old can't be trusted to vote, why would you trust a 90 year old?

Who never will notice the consequences of their actions

The current generation of kids thinks deeply about our future

They notice that we can't continue like this

[shy gulch]

i couldn't think of an accurate minimum

[near glen]

In germany, it's 18 for federal, but 16 for city

[shy gulch]

I'm only 18 and haven't even voted yet

[near glen]

And hopefully we will lower federal to 16 too

[shy gulch]

in Canada of course it's different

[tough cedar]

i think 18 is fine

brain isn't even done developing until you're 25

[near glen]

Brain doesn't have to be developed for voting?!

[shy gulch]

I don't think that's a valid way of putting it

[near glen]

If you make voting depending of the healthiness of your brian, we def need a max limit

[shy gulch]

LOL

[tough cedar]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[shy gulch]

I also think if you're able to operate a vehicle; own a firearm, and serve your country but not be allowed to vote

it seems a little unrelated but the terms are there

[near glen]

You can own a gun before you can vote?

Lmao

[tough cedar]

some guns in some states

[near glen]

Only in murica

[tough cedar]

i believe it's limited to something like shotguns and maybe long rifles

i'm not a gun enthusiast so i could be wrong

[near glen]

Oh yes

Those are totally save

[shy gulch]

still powerful

[near glen]

A 16 year old here can't even own a taser

[shy gulch]

a minimum age just allows for more people to think ahead of time in my opinion

[shy gulch]

lol

[near glen]

14?!?!!

[tough cedar]

well there you go i guess i was right lol

[shy gulch]

Majority has no minimum ._.

[near glen]

Wait I didn't even see the no minimum

Lmfao

How did america go so wrong?

[tough cedar]

you can't buy them as a kid though

your parents could give you one

[shy gulch]

I don't think owning them at 8 is the bad part

[tough cedar]

but you can't purchase them

[near glen]

Oh that makes it totally better

[shy gulch]

it's about having them uneducated about what a gun is and can do

[restive seal]

"Let's give a child a life-taking device" is not a bad part? 😄

[weary lake]

Luckily 0 states don't allow civilians to have guns at all

[shy gulch]

Well you do have a point there

[weary lake]

That's almost 1

[near glen]

Murica, where a child is allowed to posses a gun but an adult can't posses a bit of weed

[weary lake]

Getting close to all states /s

[shy gulch]

You do have a point, at least fully locked an unlocked education with supervision

if the firearm is fully secured, and supervised by a mentally sufficient individual, unloaded, and locked etc isn't the worst but that's probably 5% of the parents

even then it might spark shitty ideas

[near glen]

I should add: using gun for sport is a thing here, and you can do it below 18 (don't know the min), but you don't own the gun and it can't leave the training facility

So there is always professional supervison

Parents aren't that

[mystic ermine]

The laws for stuff like guns are different, e.g. ^ is the same in a few states

[shy gulch]

Agreed.

[mystic ermine]

The way i see it is that the US is more like the EU

You have this big government bs in charge of a few dozen smaller governments

[near glen]

Which, looking at the state of the EU, is not a compliment for the US, lol

[mystic ermine]

it's why stuff like weed legaility was weird, as some states would allow it, but, it's still technically illegal federally, just, feds are generally not in a position they can enforce shit unless they look at you

I'm not saying it is, lol

[near glen]

Compare the US, to other federal republics

Then you notice how much is going wrong

[mystic ermine]

imho, it's the uber elitism, I lean both left and right on varying issues, and even over here in the UK, you look at the tory party and you're a piece of trash

Our labour mayor over here just got out on bail for witness intimidation and basically sketchy business activities

[shy gulch]

LOL

[mystic ermine]

corbyn is basically semi-suspended from the party due to his what I understand as basically inaction towards the racism in his own party, etc

[near glen]

It's not only elitism

It's the black and white, left or right thing

You gotta choose a side, and then that side owns you and you agree on all issues

[mystic ermine]

You have some labour member who got pulled over after some pigs entered the license plate in wrong, and all of a sudden all pigs are racist

That's what I mean by elitism

[near glen]

We need to get back into a modus where we talk about issues and problems, not opposing sides

[mystic ermine]

The stance that one side is morally superior and anybody else who believes otherwise is basically an -ist or whatever

[near glen]

Ah I see

[shy gulch]

too much division

[near glen]

Well, I called ppl right wing idiots before, but that's because they subscribe the a side which has some views I can't tolerate. If they would instead get back to a issue level, I wouldn't mind having a proper discussion.

Like, ppl in here might put me into the left corner, and I def share similar views, but i am not afraid to call out if something is bullshit, no matter the "side".

Kek, last federal election in germany i voted for a "right side" neo liberal party 😂 😂

[mystic ermine]

I lean left in some areas and right in others, so, I'm a "fun" person

[near glen]

What a dum choice but yeah

[restive seal]

In the US that's tricky because one of the parties is in favor of stripping women's rights more than they are now, actively works to disenfranchise minorities, ran in 2016 on a policy of preventing muslim immigrants from entering the country, etc.

I totally respect that people can have a wide spectrum of viewpoints on a variety of issues but here we have a political party that's like a cartoon villain in many ways. 😛

[near glen]

Thats the thing with two party systems

[restive seal]

Yeah, it sucks.

[near glen]

Gotta vote against stuff

Not for stuff

[mystic ermine]

Afaik, it wasn't muslims in general but muslims from trouble hotspots who aren't citizens

Which, yea, iffy, but, given the rise of attacks in places like france at the time, I can see why people wanted it

[fast flame]

No it’s just Muslims. Most of the attackers from 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia and they got nothing.

I’d say the majority of Islamic terrorism as we know it grew out of Saudi Arabia and Iran but only one of those states received any sort of punitive action because of it.

[shy gulch]

If anything those states are being supported by the U.S. too my knowledge aren't they the biggest consumer in firearm sales?

and oitehr stuff

[fast flame]

Saudi Arabia is being rewarded because of it, yes

[restive seal]

Narrowing it down to "Still target muslims, just the 'bad ones'" doesn't really help any argument in its favor

[fast flame]

And it’s because of oil that the US wants to get their hands on

[mystic ermine]

Well, I think the entire thing is BS, but, the world defo needs to be better at dealing with stuff like harmful people, international and domestic

It's kinda scary how often you hear that some attacker was on some watchlist for literally years or something

[shy gulch]

Someone has to aid me in the Alex Jones scene, I still believe him on certain topics for some reason

[mystic ermine]

that water man

[fast flame]

Don’t

[near glen]

Smth smth remember when the CIA payed osama bin laden? 😂

[fast flame]

Do not believe anything Alex Jones says

[shy gulch]

I try not too but I go open minded accepting everything he says for some reason

[fast flame]

That man

[shy gulch]

not literally everything but I go into open-mindedly

[fast flame]

Said that fluoride

Turned frogs

Gay

[shy gulch]

I heard he's kookoo so that's another reason not too.

[restive seal]

I don't want to play slippery-slope games but where do you want to shift the line between "was on a watchlist and we couldn't catch them actually doign something in time" and "we prosecuted them for thought-crime"? How do we prevent acts while still preserving rights?

[shy gulch]

His point in the twin towers not having to fall because of metal beams or some shit

[restive seal]

(using thought crime as an extreme, not implying you're suggesting it)

[shy gulch]

I tried finding points against his argument couldn't find much

It's probably me in a little bit of self-denial

[near glen]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_to_Osama_bin_Laden

[fast flame]

Not trying to defend them but that’s different

[mystic ermine]

Well, that's part of the issue as to where you draw the line; But, I'd argue that if you're making threats upon people and then go out to obtain weaponry, etc, you know

ofc, there are some complexities into how they come into weapons and such, so, there is defo a huge ass slippery slope of tryna balance rights between preventing this shit from happening in the first place

[restive seal]

Yeah, it's an awful squiggly line we need to draw here

[fast flame]

That’s uniting against a common enemy. The soviets were trying to invade Afghanistan and take it over. The CIA was working to protect state sovereignty.

[near glen]

By funding terrorists

[mystic ermine]

Well, yea, but there was still a cashflow, which, "correct, but not at the relevant timeframe for the claim"

god knows on the specifics, too much there to follow for my brain

[near glen]

Basically, the CIA is responsible for the whole fucking mess in the middle east

[mystic ermine]

no real surprise there

[near glen]

I remember how the democratic leader of iran was called, but the US basically removed the only democratic leader that whole region ever had

[restive seal]

Eh, we have to go back further to WWII don't we? For all the awful borders and such?

[mystic ermine]

The place was fucked

the CIA just came in with a huge stirring spoon for their own whims

[restive seal]

(I mean yeah, CIA has caused lots of stuff, no denial there, but with the middle east specifically I view them more as a mid-game player than starting lineup on the screwups there)

[near glen]

Cia came to fight soviet union and to fight for oil

Remember the alleged weapons of mass destruction? 😂

[mystic ermine]

from what I recall, "the enemy of your enemy is your friend", so they basically propped up osama, which ended up causing them to turn into a shithouse too big for their own good, and they they popped him as soon as they got what they wanted and just started stirring again

[near glen]

And left him with bunch of money and weapons and a deeply rooted hatred for the US 😂

And I mean, if you look at what happens, I can totally understand why the collective middle east hates the west so much

And hey, as we speak, turkey is invading syria and nobody gives a shit

Wooooo

Erdogan trying to do a genocide to kurds

[mystic ermine]

nobody generally cares about stuff unless it's politically expedient or affects them

[near glen]

Erdogan is developing to be a real problem

He was a problem in lybia, he is a problem in syria, he is a problem in artsakh

He's also stiring up shit in the aegean

Oh and blackmailing the EU with refugees

Fuuuuuun

Let's continue on a more light hearted topic

https://twitter.com/kurteichenwald/status/1335677807268081673?s=19

Kurt "Masks Save Lives" Eichenwald (@kurteichenwald)

2016

Retweets

123

Likes

514

Twitter · Dec 6, 2020, 8:09 PM

(thread)

[elder portal]

https://i.imgur.com/iLaxTLR.png

well, that wasn't tasteful at all

[tough cedar]

so untastefully clever

using a trigger for his base and calling fox news worse than that trigger

[shy gulch]

trump sucks

[elder portal]

https://i.imgur.com/8w6MwZ8.png

I don't understand that last response

"why is there an algorithm?"
"well, in programming, an algorithm is just a set of steps. It just means code, which you need to run any software."
"there shouldn't be an algorithm, it should just run simple calculations"

seems to have missed the entire point

unless I'm mis-reading and they're just claiming something that's untrue from no real information?

that latter might be the case

[tough cedar]

i get the feeling they're trying to say that x candidate's votes are worth x% while y candidate is worth y%

[elder portal]

it's on a thread about trying to fact-check someone getting a Dominion machine and putting in equal votes and discovering Biden had a 26% lead

apparently that was all made-up, but I read the reply tweets anyway

https://i.imgur.com/2uBasyO.png

https://i.imgur.com/sLAcmrW.png

"lessons on success and persuasion"?

[wraith grail]

Carnegie

How to win friends and influence people

[tough cedar]

oop we can't find the fraud lets find the next thing to complain about

[elder portal]

oh, I think I remember that

was Scott Adams involved in that book at all?

[tough cedar]

no

[elder portal]

I remember it being a funny read with good advice

[tough cedar]

he probably just takes stuff from the book and then tries to apply it to a modern context or something

[wraith grail]

It's likely just a spin or similar

[elder portal]

I might be mixing it up with Social Engineering: The Art of Human Hacking

[wraith grail]

Or his own take on how to achieve the results

[elder portal]

ohh

lol

[wraith grail]

Ye

[cosmic badge]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2020/12/anti-gay-hungarian-politician-j-zsef-sz-jer-resigns-after-being-caught-attending-25-man-orgy-in-breach-of-covid-19-rules.html

Anti-gay Hungarian politician József Szájer resigns after being caught attending 25-man orgy in breach of COVID-19 rules

Hard to understand gay homophobes. Are they also self-hating?

[mystic ermine]

they're basically just closeted morons, imho

[cosmic badge]

Seems to me they'd be much happier if they just embraced it. Why go to a gay orgy while depriving the rights of millions of other LGBTQ?

[shy gulch]

LOL

that's hilarious

[near glen]

The now that fighting for those rights would be political suicide

It's the side thing, subscribe to a side, gotta subscribe to all their policies

Unless you are man enough to stand up

[fast flame]

someone i know once described that type of homophobia as "i'm-a-homo-phobia" which i think is accurate.

[elder portal]

https://youtu.be/qIUb3bjh42Y

It's beautiful

[cosmic badge]

I'm impressed r/Libertarian is handling the election results more gracefully than r/Conservative.

Maybe the conservative sub is being overrun by former The_Donald people when the sub got banned 😛

[fast flame]

I’m curious what the_donald got banned for lmao

[elder portal]

https://i.imgur.com/jt2ciTK.png

"the media"

it's really, really easy to attack a nebulous concept that doesn't actually conform to reality

"the media" is quite literally everything, or it could be one specific outlet, or nothing, depending on who you're talking to

it's also incredibly difficult to defend nebulous concepts like that

83% of people are correct-ish in that most media outlets have a bias

but "the media" is not biased, because "the media" does not exist

it's a disingenuous attack on a concept rather than anything corporeal

[elder portal]

clearly a large amount of Trump's audience is confused about "the media" then, basket

reading Twitter replies and some comments in here suggest that they conflate a single news outlet with "the media" aka. what they intend to mean "everything"

I see constant attacks on "the media" where it's a single source (possibly even accidentally) mis-representing something

the whole point of the whole "the media" thing is to attack a concept that's difficult to defend

it's the world's largest hasty generalization fallacy

to be fair, the election is also entirely hasty generalization

the "rigged election" anyway

seems par for the course with Trump's base

[weary obsidian]

tmz

did youreally just link that

[tough cedar]

i mean what can you say

they probably exist

and maybe we have seen them

but i doubt they're working with us lol

we seem to be a little too self destructive right now

[weary obsidian]

just to make sure it doesnt get deleted

[foggy fern]

The Fairness Doctrine was killed off so right wing radio could be a thing

[tawny edge]

dont know if it was a joke but lmao

[weary obsidian]

mixing reputable and tabloids...

yes a lot of what a tabloid might post might be "factual", but its still trash

[foggy fern]

I think the Fairness Doctrine was killed off the same way line sharing rules were, the existing players pointed at cable and said "but they don't have to!" and the FCC's answer wasn't to make cable follow the same rules but to get rid of the rules

Also trust me people hated on NBC and CBS and ABC in the 70s and 80s too they just didn't have right wing radio and the internet to spread their bullshit so you don't know about all the ways they were "wrong" or selective in what they reported on

Nixon certainly made his feelings known

[cosmic badge]

With the talk of repealing section 230, I wonder who that hurts more 😛

[foggy fern]

The crypto-fascists on distributed services and tor might lose their homeserver but not their social graph as they hop from takedown to takedown

Twitter will turn in to an ad and blogging platform for celebrities

It'll make it harder for their message to spread to new people though so maybe them?

[cosmic badge]

Trump threatening to veto the defense authorization bill over section 230 is so good. I hope he does. No more money for the DoD, please.

Actually, has it already gone through both houses? 😦

Looks like the Senate amended it, so back to the House then?

Also my man Bernie, at least you tried: The Senate voted 23-77 against a proposal by Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) to reduce the budget by $74 billion.

[foggy fern]

I thought it made it through both houses with a veto-proof majority

[cosmic badge]

It passed the House, but the Senate amended it I think

[foggy fern]

Like, he can veto it but they could just vote it again

[cosmic badge]

So it has to go back to teh House, no?

But yeah, either way, it'll be veto-proof.