general

[heady spear]

Had a thyroidectomy but the surgeon fucked up my parathyroids

[grand slate]

Oh dam

[heady spear]

So I have developed hypoparathyroidism and from that hypocalcemia

Which has given me acute paresthesia

Also basically getting a medical degree while here lol

[grand slate]

I can tell haha

Still, education 🙏

[void void]

City loves to use big words

[heady spear]

I was supposed to go home yesterday but they’re keeping me until tomorrow, at least

Apparently you can develop muscle cramps and get heart failure and shit

[grand slate]

Ty

Yea pls don't do that

[void void]

.kill Christ

[limber knot]

slices Christ's limbs off with a chainsaw.

[grand slate]

Simple white girl

[void void]

ok this "the resident" show i swear to god

hnggggg

also

.kill Christ

[limber knot]

puts Christ into a sack, throws the sack in the river, and hurls the river into space.

[grand slate]

@void void why u little

Omfg i've said 'rart' so much auto suggest keeps telling me to say it 😔

[void void]

Smite me sky daddy

[grand slate]

Uh

[void void]

You are Christ aren't you?

.kill Christ

[limber knot]

slices Christ's limbs off with a rusty scythe.

[grand slate]

Yes

[void void]

Good

.lart Christ

[limber knot]

frowns at Christ really, really hard.

[void void]

Okay goodnight

[limber knot]

ufff

checked out the website of some random german guy on spigot and he actually writes cobol as his day job

poor soul

[grand slate]

😔

[void void]

so basically don't be me and resize filesystems wrongly

[quasi valley]

I like how even the worst possible search queries can get me the exact thing I want (like, exactly the same, I wanted to write "can easily be") https://kennytv.eu/files/25ndf.png

[dapper nacelle]

ItemUtil.setPluginInstance(this);

would doing this in the main class' onEnable method be considered good coding style

its a Util class containing only static methods

[wide chasm]

I personally prefer just passing the main class to the utility method as a parameter when needed.

[void void]

i see utils as things that have no tie to any other classes

[dapper nacelle]

hm.. that'd get messy since the classes where I use those methods in would also require an instance

wasn't there some method that'd accept your main class as class and then get the plugin from that

[wide chasm]

MainClass.getPlugin(MainClass.class)

Where MainClass is the name of your main class.

[dapper nacelle]

private static WandsPlugin plugin = JavaPlugin.getPlugin(WandsPlugin.class);```

close enough

[void void]

im not sure how this is better than MyPlugin.getInstance()

[limber knot]

they're both bad

runs

[wide chasm]

Eh, I personally don't mind utilizing the main class as a singleton.

[void void]

i dont know why people have a problem with it

[limber knot]

it's not a singleton though

[wide chasm]

How is it not?

[limber knot]

it breaks the second you try to load the same plugin twice

which is theoretically supported

[dapper nacelle]

why would you want to load it twice

[limber knot]

(if you don't use singletons where you shouldn't)

[wide chasm]

That is supported?

[dapper nacelle]

than its not my fault for breaking

[limber knot]

if you want to run two server instances in parallel in the same server software (e.g. because server hardware has become powerfull enough to do that) then your plugin will break ;)

but tbh, it's just bad design imo as it's not OOP ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[void void]

wont everything break cos MinecraftServer.getServer ?

and Bukkit.getServer

[limber knot]

yeah, any static singleton assumption is a problem

[dapper nacelle]

stef wil je mijn wands zien 😏

[wide chasm]

Bukkit pushes you pretty hard in the direction of the main class being a singleton already, so I just do so.

Yeah, sure.

[dapper nacelle]

justdylan.me

1.14.4

[limber knot]

lol no it doesn't

[dapper nacelle]

it requires the plugin instance all over the place

[limber knot]

there is zero reason to ever use it as a singleton

[wide chasm]

JavaPlugin.getPlugin is pretty much Class.getInstance, now just made by Bukkit.

[limber knot]

yes, and there is zero reason to use that

[wide chasm]

I guess you can use it for other plugins also, though.

[limber knot]

it's even slow

[pulsar wigeon]

to be fair it uses the current plugin classloader tho right?

[limber knot]

why would you use it xD

[pulsar wigeon]

why not

why are you against using plugins as singletons

[limber knot]

because it's slow

[wide chasm]

Well, that's my reasoning for "Bukkit pushes you pretty hard in the direction of the main class being a singleton"

[limber knot]

because plugins aren't singletons xD

[pulsar wigeon]

no one is ever going to run multiple servers in the same jvm

[void void]

did you profile it and find it to be a bottleneck?

[pulsar wigeon]

i mean if used in hot code probably yes^

[limber knot]

lol, of course they will

eventually someone is going to do it ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[pulsar wigeon]

k, guess they will break then

cuz bukkit itself is a singleton

[limber knot]

but w/e

my main point is that it's bad design :P

[pulsar wigeon]

don't plan for retarded shit

no it's not lol

[limber knot]

it's not OOP, Plugins are objects, not the main application class

[pulsar wigeon]

yes, because dependency injection everywhere is great design

[dapper nacelle]

the fact that someone will try something so retarded means that its not our fault if it breaks

[pulsar wigeon]

that's fucking retarded

[heady spear]

DI everything

[limber knot]

calling OOP "fucking retarted"

using java

[dapper nacelle]

I never called OOP retarded

[pulsar wigeon]

i didn't call oop retarded

i called your statements retarded

[heady spear]

No reasonable person would ever let the server run in such a way that plugin isn’t a singleton, so treating it as one is perfectly sensible

[limber knot]

" yes, because dependency injection everywhere is great design" "that's fucking retarded" you literally just did

[dapper nacelle]

but lets be honest here, OOP combined with FP will be the future in higher level languages

[heady spear]

Circle jerking about OOP principles isn’t tbf

[pulsar wigeon]

the first was a sarcastic counterpoint to your statement

[dapper nacelle]

@wide chasm are you on your way? if not I can focus on coding.

[limber knot]

yeah, I get that you meant it sarcaastically, hence my comment that you think OOP is "fucking retarted" if you think that a basic design principle of OOP isn't "great design"

[wide chasm]

I won't be able to start MC right now, so no, sorry

[heady spear]

Stef has never been on his way anywhere

[dapper nacelle]

ok that's fine

[wide chasm]

Ehm, actually, death always comes closer

[pulsar wigeon]

DI is not a basic design principle of OOP

dunno where the fuck you learned about OOP

but DI isn't part of it

[heady spear]

Wiz mind your language

It’s making me sad

[limber knot]

how would OOP even work without it lol?

because static instance getters are definitly not part of it

[dapper nacelle]

34 usages left 😩

[limber knot]

the world doesn't work like that

[pulsar wigeon]

are you implying other programming paradigms get everything from thin air?

[limber knot]

(well, I guess you could get a static god instance 🤔 )

[dapper nacelle]

you might as well do some functional programming with statics

[heady spear]

When not using OOP all references are pass-by-magic

[limber knot]

no I do not, but in OOP using static instances is like "getting things out of thin air"

[pulsar wigeon]

exactly

[limber knot]

because you get stuff from something that is not related to your actual object

which is just wtf

[dapper nacelle]

man coding style decisions are harder than coding

[wide chasm]

Yes

[void void]

everyone: what's your policy on using this in java? always? only if needed?

[hot gorge]

Dylan must be knowing everything again this morning.

[wide chasm]

this only if needed and whenever I feel like it.

[quasi valley]

^sounds about right 😂

[wide chasm]

Probably not that great of a policy though

[void void]

i usually avoid it but i want to switch to always using this

[wide chasm]

I kinda want too

[quasi valley]

it can make code more readable, but also less readable

[dapper nacelle]

Sonorous, for once I haven't been spouting nonsense

[quasi valley]

always depends on the scope 👀

[limber knot]

Functional programming in java is my go to

.lart Tea

dragon punches Tea.

[dapper nacelle]

my policy is use this whenever needed and in constructors for field initialisation

[wide chasm]

It ensures that you can always see which variables are class-level and which ones are from a method. Of course, you could say that if you can't see that immediately, your method is too long, but... meh.

[pulsar wigeon]

or if you're using mixins

🙃

[limber knot]

My policy is functional programming as much as possible and then occasionally mix in oop

[dapper nacelle]

works too

[limber knot]

And then I always use this

[dapper nacelle]

for JavaScript

[limber knot]

It works for java

I mean your ID is hilighting fields vs variables anyways ¯_(ツ)_/¯

*IDE

[wide chasm]

Yes, but I don't always view code in an IDE.

[limber knot]

I don’t use an ide

don't

runs

I view code with bat

Or in emacs

[quasi valley]

vim

[limber knot]

I used vim for too much so I swapped to emacs

I'm pretty sure both of these can do proper code syntax highlighting

[quasi valley]

how about vi

[dapper nacelle]

smh everything except IntelliJ is for peasant

[quasi valley]

how's that pronounced, "faesents"?

[dapper nacelle]

I rely too much on the auto correct

[void void]

in some languages, you can't not use "this"

[limber knot]

With language skills like that, I’m sure you don’t fit into that class

You use self

Or just program functionally

[dapper nacelle]

imagine coding in C++ because you can properly do some functional programming there

[limber knot]

I do just not my primary

[void void]

C++ is all templates and waiting for things to compile

[wide chasm]

I've had three uni classes on C++ and currently I find it meh.

[dapper nacelle]

I'm still stuck in Java 8

or rather with Java 8

[limber knot]

Same thing, executed in a jvm

everything related to Minecraft is stuck in java 8 xD

-casually runs on latest version of java-

[minor iron]

Yeah

Í run on Java 9

[limber knot]

11

[minor iron]

Akbxskjalabdlabslahsk

What

[limber knot]

95% of servers are running 8 so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[minor iron]

I just do apt install default-Jre

[wide chasm]

My plugin compiles to Java 11
runs

[minor iron]

í uhh

[limber knot]

interestingly right behind Java 8 is Java 11.0.4 with ~2.5%

[minor iron]

Don't know a lot about Java

[limber knot]

Ew Debian based distros

Disgusting

[minor iron]

Smh

You a pacman

[void void]

Tea uses arch i bet

[limber knot]

Arch and gentoo

[minor iron]

Bad

Big bad

[void void]

one of those is good

[minor iron]

Arch is okay

[limber knot]

Simply because the setup was before void Linux

[minor iron]

They have a nice wiki

[limber knot]

Arch has a great wiki

Also a complete user repository

[minor iron]

Idk

I like lubuntu

[limber knot]

Ew

[minor iron]

For running any kind of server

[limber knot]

Ubuntu

Not even pure Debian

[minor iron]

Yes

But

Lubuntu

[limber knot]

Ew

[minor iron]

:|

[limber knot]

Be gone peasant

[minor iron]

No u

[limber knot]

You know not the way of the world

[minor iron]

I know the way of the world

[limber knot]

Then in which direction does the earth orbits around the sun

[void void]

uses arch and believes the earth is a globe

[quasi valley]

duh the sun revolves around the earth you dum

[wide chasm]

The earth is static, just like my codebase /s

[limber knot]

Windows user spotted

[quasi valley]

and just as flat

[minor iron]

Blockchain, cloud

[wide chasm]

Ehm, akshualy, Windows 7

[limber knot]

-pushes away with a 20m pole-

Running Linux on an iPad was a crazy idea

[minor iron]

Has someone done it?

If so epic

[limber knot]

Yes

[minor iron]

OwO

It sounds like it might be ok for productivity too

[limber knot]

Someone has also rewrote the gnu toolchain in JavaScript

Just because it exists, doesn’t mean you should use it

[rigid oasis]

Really? [@]Tea

[limber knot]

Yes

But to which part are you asking about

[rigid oasis]

Sound even stranger than writing a python interpreter in python...

Someone has also rewrote the gnu toolchain in JavaScript
this one

[limber knot]

Oh

Yea, people write full desktop environments in JavaScript now

There’s a full nodejs os too

[rigid oasis]

sounds not very performant..

[dapper nacelle]

there is electron

[rigid oasis]

there is C++ and assembler

[dapper nacelle]

for applications that should work on the web and as desktop application it'd be fine

discord is build on JavaScript

[rigid oasis]

yes

[limber knot]

node-os

You can use webasm

[rigid oasis]

web what?

[limber knot]

Web assembly

[rigid oasis]

that is... ?

[limber knot]

Compiled code to run on the web

Portable binary code it’s pretty cool

[rigid oasis]

hmm, sounds interesting..

[limber knot]

Also an open standard

Still waiting on http/3 to stabilize

[rigid oasis]

im reading the wikipedia aritcle for it at the moment..

[limber knot]

http/3

Or webasm

[worn ember]

or just dont

[limber knot]

http/3 is http over quic with udp

[rigid oasis]

so webasm is sort of "java for webbrowsers"?

[limber knot]

No

Well, what made you say that analogy

[rigid oasis]

that it is being compiled to a sort of "universal binary", just like Jaav

[limber knot]

If it’s just the core idea of java running everywhere than sure

[pulsar wigeon]

that's not unique to java

[rigid oasis]

but the most common is java

[pulsar wigeon]

do you have any idea how many languages are compiled to an intermediate bytecode form

[rigid oasis]

many.

[hot gorge]

4

[limber knot]

<insert good interpreted language here>

[rigid oasis]

Python, Koltin, C#, ahm.. more..

[pulsar wigeon]

most common is java
yes, let's just forget all the other big hitters

[limber knot]

JavaScript is too

[upper flicker]

If someone could just refactor electron to be less of a hog, or make them fork chromium or something, I'd care a lot less about how people write their apps

[hot gorge]

Maybe 5

[limber knot]

So really, JavaScript is the most common

[upper flicker]

sadface.jpeg

[limber knot]

Well I used to care

The I saw kitty, which is even worse

It’s a terminal that fully spins up Vulcan

[upper flicker]

Probably still performs better than that electron terminal

[limber knot]

Hyper?

[upper flicker]

That thing performed like ass but hey at least we can theme it with css and it's "hackable"

[limber knot]

It’s not bad

[upper flicker]

Sounds right

It's horrible

[limber knot]

There was 2 of them that were big so I don’t know which one you are talking about

[upper flicker]

Pretty sure it was hyper

[limber knot]

One was power line out of the box

And could never draw vim

[upper flicker]

Maybe they've fixed it, but when I used it, after they considered it "release quality" it was pure garbage

Couldn't even draw text performantly

The one job of a terminal emulator

[limber knot]

It runs fine now

[upper flicker]

Bet you it still runs worse than every other one

[limber knot]

Electron as a whole is better than it used to be

[upper flicker]

It's still spinning up a chromium instance under the hood

[limber knot]

It still runs worse yes

[dapper nacelle]

asus software be like

lets update to current version

[upper flicker]

That's overhead you don't just walk away from

[limber knot]

Kitty launches slower

Because it’s a graphical engine

[upper flicker]

Haven't used kitty, have used the other one

The other GPU driven one

That ones fast but it's not really needed

[limber knot]

Kitty is like that

I use alacrity

[upper flicker]

Yeah alacritty

That's the one

[rigid oasis]

@dapper nacelle that makes me thinking why an audio-driver must have about 70MB size..

[dapper nacelle]

idk

[limber knot]

It’s not gpu driven in pretty sure

[dapper nacelle]

I use an external amplifier DAC combo

[limber knot]

Just accelerated

[rigid oasis]

and thanks for reminding me to update my LAN-Driver 😂

[dapper nacelle]

😂

[upper flicker]

[limber knot]

Shhh

It’s different I swear

[upper flicker]

It definitely runs very well

[limber knot]

Do not look behind the curtain

[rigid oasis]

JustDynlan, maybe I keep the old one...

[upper flicker]

I just don't need it and it's missing some other stuff

[limber knot]

It’s missing a lot

[dapper nacelle]

time for a break

[limber knot]

But tmux covers everything I care that it’s missing

[dapper nacelle]

all the refactoring in my project is making my head fuzzy

[rigid oasis]

Refactoring 🤢

[limber knot]

And that is actually the reason they never implemented the features

[dapper nacelle]

what's wrong with refactoring

its like the most used feature

[rigid oasis]

its pretty hard to make good code from shit

[limber knot]

It’s not refactoring that’s the problem, its just no one likes doing it

[dapper nacelle]

yeah its a pain

[rigid oasis]

Tea, exactly what i wanted to say

[upper flicker]

idk I've never run into a case where I'd need to care

[dapper nacelle]

but you gotta do what you gotta do to get the naming right and change your design structure

[limber knot]

Love it when people refactor their code for a week and then it’s messier and runs slower than before

[rigid oasis]

Hahaha

[upper flicker]

The main case I see argued is "I have 37 nested tmux windows in one session and it fails to draw on time"

[dapper nacelle]

any news on spigot using the obfuscation maps?

[upper flicker]

Which is fine if that's your thing

But there's systems that just use different sessions for splitting and nesting sooo

That issue goes away if you aren't addicted to tmux like that

Which is fine again, just not my workflow

[limber knot]

Why the heck would you ever have more than two nested sessions

[upper flicker]

Hacker man be crazy

[rigid oasis]

when I hear the word "nested": Is recursion (in Java) good or bad?

[limber knot]

And the second should only be if you are sshd into another pc

[worn ember]

Hai Z 👋

[limber knot]

Recursion is good

[dapper nacelle]

recursion is bad

[upper flicker]

@rigid oasis Yes

It can be good or bad or both or neither depending on how you use it

[limber knot]

Recursion is the foundation of programming

[upper flicker]

It's just a tool

[dapper nacelle]

you can always avoid recursion

a loop is faster than recursion

[rigid oasis]

I mean, i've head that it will consume much more memory than loops

[limber knot]

Not always true

[worn ember]

really depends what you're doing

[limber knot]

You should see the assembly output of recursion vs loops in some Langs

[upper flicker]

In java, recursion is typically slower, but not probably super meaningful unless you're in hot code

[rigid oasis]

I havent ever needed to use some recursion... (Solved everthing with loops)

[upper flicker]

As always, write clear code, optimize the hot sections after when you run an optimization pass

[worn ember]

who even uses recursion tho

[rigid oasis]

but, how to know which sections are "hot"?

[limber knot]

A lot of things use recursion

[worn ember]

heck i dont even know how to use recursion in java

[upper flicker]

Yourkit/your preferred profiler

[limber knot]

Your compiler uses recursion

[wide chasm]

You just call the method you're in.

[rigid oasis]

profiler.. hmm.. does IDEA have something like this build in?

[worn ember]

[wide chasm]

void myMethod() {
    myMethod();
}```
Runs infinitely, but that's recursion.

[limber knot]

The problem isn’t normally speed but memory buffers

[worn ember]

just download more

[upper flicker]

Runs infinitely until you blow through Java's stack anyway

Java is probably not the best language if you want to write everything recursively

[worn ember]

Runs inifinitly for about 3 seconds

[limber knot]

^

[wide chasm]

Just increment the max stack thingy /s

[upper flicker]

But again, it's just another tool, another paradigm

[limber knot]

Recursion isn’t the best in general for any garbage collecting Lang anyways

[worn ember]

my garbage truck uses recursion

[dapper nacelle]

private void trail(Entity entity) {
    Bukkit.getScheduler().runTaskLater(plugin, () -> {
        if (entity.isValid()) {
            Location location = entity.getLocation();
            location.getWorld().spawnParticle(Particle.FLAME, location, 1);
            trail(entity);
        }
    }, 1);
}

me doing recursion

[limber knot]

Unless python

[dapper nacelle]

when I didn't know about repeating tasks

[limber knot]

Python is that weird case since where you deal with a lot of functional programming

[worn ember]

couldve stopped after Python is weird

[wide chasm]

Python can be pretty nice

[rigid oasis]

yes ^^

[limber knot]

I love python though

[worn ember]

Well your opinion is wrong 😉

[wide chasm]

no u

[rigid oasis]

or your..

[limber knot]

Just the interpreter had problems

A lot of problems

[worn ember]

tbh im just meming, i dont really use python

never had much use for it so havent bothered

[wide chasm]

Yeah, same

[limber knot]

Who’s ready for python 4 :^)

[wide chasm]

Is that in development?

[limber knot]

I hope not

[worn ember]

i thought 3 just released?

[limber knot]

I’m pretty sure it isn’t

[wide chasm]

"just"

[rigid oasis]

"just"

[upper flicker]

"just"

[limber knot]

3 didn’t just release..

[worn ember]

well half the systems run 2 still so shut up

;n;

[limber knot]

It’s just impossible to get people to stop using 2

[wide chasm]

I think the last JB survey showed that over 90% uses 3 currently

[worn ember]

java 8 gang where you at

[upper flicker]

Just wait for some sort of language bug or security issue to pop up in a few months here

[limber knot]

Even though it deprecated

[upper flicker]

Python 2 going EOL

[limber knot]

There has been some already Z

[upper flicker]

Yay

[rigid oasis]

on most systems, typing "python" will end up in python 2

[upper flicker]

That's for legacy reasons

[limber knot]

Quite a few actually

[rigid oasis]

changing that would be nice..

[upper flicker]

The python 3 spec says you should explicitly say you want python3

[worn ember]

i dont

[limber knot]

Just change the symlink

[upper flicker]

Since that existed, it was a pretty safe assumption

[limber knot]

Python2 is the binary

[rigid oasis]

Hmm.. Python 2 and 3 arent compatible to each other?

[limber knot]

python is a symlink to python2

[worn ember]

i dont have motivation to work on MMSG anymore x.x

[upper flicker]

No, they are not entirely compatible

[limber knot]

No, that’s why it’s a major version change Lukas

[upper flicker]

Simple stuff will run between them mostly

[limber knot]

Unlike java, which basically never does crazy breaking changes

[rigid oasis]

yes, put that print without ()

[limber knot]

Strings are different too

[rigid oasis]

and divison

[limber knot]

The way bytes are handled is different as well which really screws with networking code

That’s why it took so long for twisted to be updated

[rigid oasis]

btw, whats the most recent java version? 11, 12 or 13?

[wide chasm]

12

13 is in development, 11 is latest LTS.

[rigid oasis]

okay, so its no more recommended to use 8?

[limber knot]

Time to upgrade my arch install to 12

Oh nvm I already have it

[wide chasm]

I don't see why you wouldn't run 11 or 12.

[rigid oasis]

I mean as minium compatibility level thing (dont know the exact name) when building

[limber knot]

Java is everyone’s favorite malware compatibility layer

[wide chasm]

For building I use either 11 or 8. 8 for API, so people have time to switch, for plugins and other stuff 11.

[rigid oasis]

okay.. so Im right with that?

sourceCompatibility = '1.11'
targetCompatibility = '1.11'
```(Gradle)

[limber knot]

Wat

People still use groovy

[rigid oasis]

whats the advantage of grade-kotlin? Nothing.. i think

[limber knot]

Nothing just use java

Or scala

[rigid oasis]

build.gradle in Java?

[limber knot]

Kotlin is for

You guessed it, Kotlin

[rigid oasis]

but, why should i rewrite a perfectly working build.gradle?

[limber knot]

Don’t

[rigid oasis]

People still use groovy

[dapper nacelle]

ffs

[limber knot]

More malware

[dapper nacelle]

300 GPU driver updates a month

[limber knot]

Don’t use experience

[rigid oasis]

@dapper nacelle what language is that?

[dapper nacelle]

Dutch

[limber knot]

Actually full of vulnerabilities

[dapper nacelle]

from The Netherlands

[rigid oasis]

interesting language, sounds a bit similar to german

[wide chasm]

It is quite similar to German.

[dapper nacelle]

yeah

[limber knot]

A lot of languages are similar once you study the roots of language

[dapper nacelle]

it has a lot of things that are about the same

[rigid oasis]

"Installatie voorbereiden" German something like: "Installation vorbereiten"

[dapper nacelle]

I had Sekiro: Shadow Die Twice too

its gone now

[limber knot]

I speed English and a bit of mandarin and I’m more than fully capable of reading bits of German

[dapper nacelle]

I never really learned German tho I can read a fair bit of it

[limber knot]

Even though I’ve never studied it

[rigid oasis]

mandarin? Ahm.. where is that spoken? China? Japan?

[limber knot]

Yes

[limber knot]

And in Taiwan

[dapper nacelle]

fuck these updates are big

0.5 GB

[rigid oasis]

rather small..

[dapper nacelle]

meanwhile I am downloading Anime RPG MMO games from steam

via VPN

[rigid oasis]

there're games with about 100GB

[dapper nacelle]

rip my bandwidth

[rigid oasis]

how much?

[limber knot]

Most places besides Hong Kong, when you say Chinese it’s mandarin

[rigid oasis]

Aaah

[dapper nacelle]

I have like 4MB/s to spent

[rigid oasis]

MB or MBit?

[dapper nacelle]

Sekiro: Shadow Die Twice was like 18GB

MB

[rigid oasis]

thats pretty okay

[limber knot]

Slow

[wide chasm]

Very slow

[dapper nacelle]

it is enough for 5 people

[rigid oasis]

we've about 100 Mbit/s.. Real: 40 Mbit/s

[limber knot]

It’s not enough for one person

[rigid oasis]

@wide chasm, Tea, where do you live?

[limber knot]

The states

[rigid oasis]

Cant even get much faster internet.

[wide chasm]

The Netherlands, North Holland, Hoofddorp.

[dapper nacelle]

glass fibber costs a lot compared to coax

[rigid oasis]

Im in Austria.

[dapper nacelle]

that's rather specific stef...

[limber knot]

You have the internet of an Aussie

[rigid oasis]

ahm no, not Australia 😉

[limber knot]

I know that

[rigid oasis]

Most people not.. unfortunately

[wide chasm]

lol

[limber knot]

I can Austria and know it’s not Australia

[rigid oasis]

Awesome.

[limber knot]

Forgot a word, oops

We

[void void]

australian means "southern land" and austria means "eastern"

weird isn't it?

[limber knot]

Yea it’s eastern Australia

[rigid oasis]

sorry, dont get it.

[limber knot]

Thank the Europeans for the name

Same with the name China

[void void]

The German name for Austria, Österreich, derives from the Old High German Ostarrîchi, which meant "eastern realm"

[rigid oasis]

Aaah

[limber knot]

It didn’t have an a originally

[rigid oasis]

realm reminds me on minecraft

[void void]

The name Australia is derived from the Latin Terra Australis ("southern land")

[limber knot]

And chin is because it sounds similar the name of the old qin dynasty

[wide chasm]

I knew terra, so that's something I guess.

[limber knot]

It’s pronounced chin

[void void]

terrestrial - of the earth/land

[rigid oasis]

the german join messages are a bit.. strange

[void void]

that's a reference to the game starcraft

[limber knot]

The history of the name China is a weird one

[void void]

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-must-construct-additional-pylons

[limber knot]

Really the name is wrong

[rigid oasis]

Aaah

[void void]

but yeah discord is fucking weird

[limber knot]

It’s actual spyware

Ofc it’s weird

[void void]

it would be nice if they had an option to enable non-retarded join messages

[rigid oasis]

i like matrix (riot.im) more..

[limber knot]

I’m surprised it’s not banned in Germany

[rigid oasis]

I am not in Germany.

and no, it isnt banned there

[limber knot]

I didn’t say you were

I know that

Hints, “surprised it’s not”

[rigid oasis]

Discord is very strange..

[limber knot]

Any client that fingerprints your pc, monitors your traffic and searches for accounts is actual spyware

[rigid oasis]

yes... but there is no alternative which such big communities..

[wide chasm]

IRC

[rigid oasis]

Old..

Very old.

[wide chasm]

There are some good clients for it, though.

[limber knot]

Especially if it logs all processes running on your pc, your messages, your voice chats, how many times you check their email

[rigid oasis]

No images and things like that in irc.

[limber knot]

Oh look, I just summed up discord

[rigid oasis]

what are the disadvantages of IRC compared to discord?

[limber knot]

https://i.imgur.com/fsuYj3M.jpg casually sends images

[rigid oasis]

imgur..

[limber knot]

And?

[rigid oasis]

extra step to do

[limber knot]

You know discord’s is just a link too right?

[rigid oasis]

but easier to use.

[limber knot]

Really? I just pasted the image in my irc client

Doesn’t sound harder to me

[rigid oasis]

hmm.. how does that work?

maybe ill give it a try... so... how to get started?

[limber knot]

It uploads it to imgur and sends the link, just like discord does

Step one, find a good client

[rigid oasis]

can u recommend one?

[limber knot]

I’d recommend a web based one to newbies for now

[rigid oasis]

hmm.. like.. i dont know any 😦

[limber knot]

So kiwi, or thelounge are good free options

Then there’s IRCCloud which has premium offerings

[rigid oasis]

okay, kiwi looks enough..

..and darkmode

[limber knot]

Step two, join an irc server

[rigid oasis]

irc bridge of this one is where?

[limber knot]

Like the paper one

irc.spi.gt

I think

[dapper nacelle]

not too shabby that bandwidth

[rigid oasis]

and, what to type as password?

[limber knot]

Nothing

Not needed

[dapper nacelle]

password is always password

[rigid oasis]

network or znc (?)

[limber knot]

Yea you can leave it blank

Network

[rigid oasis]

okay.. lets try 😄

[limber knot]

Join #paper

[dapper nacelle]

are you guys doing IRC stuff

[limber knot]

Yes

[dapper nacelle]

imagine downloading discord

👊😂👌💯

[limber knot]

Now you are in irc

Hard?

[rigid oasis]

okay, im seeing this messages here

[limber knot]

You won’t have the previous message history

The bridge doesn’t implement buffers

[rigid oasis]

other channels are not bridged? Writing is as simple as typing and hitting enter?

[limber knot]

Yes

maybe this works..

And use the /list command to see all the channels

[wide chasm]

That worked

[limber knot]

wow, not that difficult

and better dark theme!

No not at all

And twitch is based on irc

So if you wanted, you can connect to twitch chats with kiwi

A lot of Minecraft severs used to have irc bridges

can I write in the paper-dev channel to?

No

Check the irc rules

[limber knot]

It specified that you won’t be bypassing discord restrictions

Interesting.. tought I had seen someone writing in other channels from IRC, too

You can join paper help

And some of the other ones

are there IRC-Specific rules?

[upper flicker]

#paper-dev isn't a private channel

It's bridged as well, same name

Along with the waterfall ones

[limber knot]

Oh I thought it was

aaah, thanks Z750..

[upper flicker]

The internal channels are not bridged

But that ones public

[limber knot]

same name?

[upper flicker]

They're all the same name as discord

We don't bridge the -github channels though

[limber knot]

wouldnt be useful.

[upper flicker]

and #general is the only social channel bridged (also the only one with a different name)

But you're already in it

[limber knot]

irc isnt as bad as i thought.

[upper flicker]

IRC is as good or as bad as your client

And there are some good clients out there

[limber knot]

I like the design of that kiwi-client much.. (dark design)

the users list on the right, is that including or excluding discord-users?

[worn ember]

hmm

[quasi valley]

it's just irc users

[worn ember]

an irc client seems like a fun project

[limber knot]

Excluding just irc people

okay..

It’s not a hard project either

[worn ember]

probably not

[limber knot]

why do some people have chars (@, %, +) in front of there names (only in IRC)

Good for introductory socket programming

[void void]

making an irc bot (without using some library) is a good project

[worn ember]

ive used sockets before

[quasi valley]

for ordering

[void void]

Lukas they are ranks, sorta

[worn ember]

its probably going to be in WPF though

[limber knot]

Oh,no emojis..

Did kiwi not embed it for you?

nope, I see the link

I thought kiwi had it

normal emojis will be displayed, only custom ones not

Mhm

[worn ember]

this one looks pretty alright

[upper flicker]

Custom ones get sent as an image link

[limber knot]

Custom ones will show the link and if your client supports it (apparently kiwi doesn’t) embedded

What client are you using, Tea?

Circe

It’s in emacs my text editor

ahm.. sounds complicated

Btw, is there chat-formatting in IRC?

Ye

how to do?

It’s not the same as the markdown stuff though

[upper flicker]

Bold Italics underline strikethrough

[pulsar wigeon]

not that discord is markdown either

[limber knot]

It’s similar

Most clients haven't jumped on board the strike through revolution

but there's colors here

.rainbow so many colors

(Z750) so many colors

It’s part of the ircv3 specification do they should

ircv3 isn't really super common among servers or clients

test test test

it doesn't use markdown

It’s increasingly common

1% to 5% is increasingly common I suppose

Weechat uses ircv3 as well as irissi

Which was the most popular clients last I checked

last I checked irssi still doesn't do strike through

Oh really? Huh

so it's either an optional part of the spec, not part of the spec, or they aren't compliant

so, what magical chars do I have to use to write in different formattings?

[worn ember]

no u

[limber knot]

Your client should have some friendly way to do it

its essentially just magical char sequences

yea, normally its things like ctrl+b

[worn ember]

/stats

.stats

[limber knot]

It's bang stats

[worn ember]

whats its prfix

[limber knot]

!stats

Uptime: 35 days, 21 hours, 52 minutes, 2 seconds
Message Handling: 4ms / 2ms (mean/median)
Messages from IRC: 7481 (6%)
Messages from Discord: 120100 (94%)

[worn ember]

oh right

still 6% dammit

[limber knot]

test

and its bold

It used to be 5%

making a come back I see

finally worked with Strg+B+

and the time before i saw it at 5% i think it was at 3

no edit message function?

[worn ember]

looks like i'll have to spam more

[limber knot]

No editing in IRC

s/no/yes

Correction, <Z750> yes editing in IRC

there are bots people add to kinda let you pretend

^^^

[limber knot]

not a real thing though

its part of ircv3

but not stabalized yet

No major servers use it

no one cares

its still in the proposal stage

so it'll be 30 years

yay

tbh that's okay though

a lot of clients have some support for s/ based replacements

interesting.. test

[worn ember]

imagine using IRC in 2019

[limber knot]

not all, and usually as a script but yea

s/test/test2

Correction, <Lukas> interesting.. test2

like on mine, it changed your message

Yeah that's an anti feature for me

[worn ember]

no playing next when not in a playlist, feelsbadman

[limber knot]

show me what the server says, don't make up your own interpretation client side

hoepfully there's an off for that

wdym?

You just said your client changed that message when you used s/

no, lukas's message when lukas said it

Yeah

rhats still client side fuckery

[worn ember]

ur clientside fuckery

[limber knot]

I don't want the client making up its own version

its going to be part of the ircv3 spec

That's fine

if it's part of the spec and everyone does that

but it's not, and not everyone does

so I don't want it now

[worn ember]

[limber knot]

but until then, and s/ is pretty standard in use anyways. Its fine

[potent warren]

no u

[limber knot]

are code-tags supportet in IRC?

yes

How?

test

Not markdown

nothing is markdown

Z750: https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/pull/304

so it's not part of the spec

[potent warren]

🤢

[limber knot]

and we don't use the spec here anyway

[limber knot]

so again, I don't want my client doing that

it wont be on s/

[potent warren]

Or, ya know... just don't use IRC...

[limber knot]

or windows

[potent warren]

🤷

[woven otter]

or computer

[potent warren]

Mac isn't great either..

[limber knot]

lukas: all formatting is magic char sequences

its up to your client to make it friendly for you

look it up

[potent warren]

irc formatting is big gay

[limber knot]

okay..

[potent warren]

Markdown > IRC Formatting /s

[tough heron]

There is no sensitive information in timings reports? I guess it is safe to share the link?

[limber knot]

unless you get a client that supports bost

s/bost/both

Correction, <Tea> unless you get a client that supports both

Some clients will translate for you

hopefully they do that before send and not on display

seen one or two really dumb proposals to do it on render

i think its kinda a mix

[potent warren]

On Discord, s/ actually edits your message 😂

get rekt

[limber knot]

Discord's version is garbage

bad copy

[potent warren]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[limber knot]

why?

[woven otter]

not really

[potent warren]

At least it's here.

[limber knot]

only works on your messages, only works on your last message

Think I've had it fuck up the escaping a few times as well

[woven otter]

wait is /s actually implemented in discord

[limber knot]

s/your/any

Correction, <Z750> only works on any messages, only works on any last message

[potent warren]

Okay, serious question... will IRC get a real message edit feature?

[woven otter]

*s/

[limber knot]

supposedly in the next spec

[potent warren]

and when's that? 3k19?

[limber knot]

i don't really think it's a p0 feature but shrug

[potent warren]

Just 🤷

[limber knot]

its pending in the spec the problem is implementing Id's

What, IRC isnt final and will get furter updates?

yes

IRC is a protocol, standardized by the specification

[potent warren]

I think they're always trying to evolve protocols as much as possible

[limber knot]

like all protocols and extensions, it evolves as new standards are prosoed

Must be one of the oldest projects which havent been discontinued.

autocorrect letting me down

theres avatar support too on freenode

[potent warren]

How the F didn't the IRC creators think of the edit feature 😦

[limber knot]

they did, it just complicated things

They assumed the users weren't going to be 12 year olds who cried when windows blue screened

[potent warren]

smh

[limber knot]

and clients were designed to be used on a teletype machine, so edits wasnt going to be happening

To make an edit, just restate what you meant

[potent warren]

oof

poor flex but okay

[limber knot]

can you edit what you say in voice chat?

is there a quoute function?

[potent warren]

uh, nope

😄

Answering to Tea ^^

[limber knot]

test

works only in discord -.-

its not markdown

[potent warren]

Lukas, Discord has it but it's a poor implementation...

Super shitty implementation of quotes

[limber knot]

no real quotes...

[potent warren]

Even BD has it afaik lul

[limber knot]

and yea, you should just be using quotation marks anyways

[potent warren]

"you should just be using quotation marks anyways"

That's lame

[limber knot]

just used it

[potent warren]

you should just be using quotation marks anyways
A bit less lame

it was to make a point

[upper flicker]

Discord quotes really are just worthless

[limber knot]

i knew you were making a quote

[potent warren]

no u

[upper flicker]

Idk who asked for them that they thought they needed it

[potent warren]

It wasn't me for sure..

[limber knot]

discord quotes being formatted was a mistake, it made it harder for me to actually recognize people were making a quote and not embedding

or code blocks

styled messages

[pulsar wigeon]

code/embeds look really different

[potent warren]

Typing indicators for the IRC bridge when

[limber knot]

look similar to this to me

[upper flicker]

Think of all the broken green text memes

[potent warren]

^^^

[limber knot]

Typing indicators are another anti feature

[pulsar wigeon]

not being able to greentext```

[limber knot]

So naturay

test __test __ test nice, **found out how to make italic and unerlined tect

naturally I'm sure they want that in the ircv3 spec

[potent warren]

italic underlined

[limber knot]

edits will be optional, it wont be forced outside of buffer callback Z

Wasn't talking about edits

i know, i was just telling you what i found out, since you wanted it optional

[potent warren]

Can y'all take some screenshots of your fancy™ IRC™ clients™?™

pls

™

yay me I killed the chat again

[limber knot]

https://i.imgur.com/sK8jyoA.png

[potent warren]

iPhone user

smh

[limber knot]

Yup

Which irc clients that

googles copying most of the stuff anyway, maybe I'll switch back

just not to another samsung

thelounge

[potent warren]

They lowkey copied the gestures thingy and even the lock screen

[limber knot]

Oh

Tbh the gesture system is killer

as long as they copied it perfectly, it'll be nice

if they fucked it up though, oofers

[potent warren]

It is nice, at least for me

[limber knot]

Doesn’t bother me on iOS

Won’t enable it on android

https://i.imgur.com/SKQkbLS.jpg my mobile client

[potent warren]

It even has a lock at the top of the screen like an iPhone smh

[limber knot]

That being said the last couple of pixels were kinda chunky monkeys on the bezels

At least they didn’t copy the notch

Samsung anyways

tbh I'm fine with a notch over bezels

I Apple has a reason for a notch other phones could of done the droplet styled a while back

They didn’t need the notch like they were fitting a fully array of ir blasters on the phone

Yeah at least apple filled it with cameras, emitters, and sensors

(Pixel)

some of them really don't need it at all

(Pixel)

i think it was LG or someone who was the most egregious

No pixels

Went great with the bad gesture copy

[potent warren]

I haz a Pixel 2 XL but it was a pain to buy it BECAUSE GOOGLE DOESN'T SELL THINGS TO ALL COUNTRIES REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[limber knot]

I stopped with the nexus line

[potent warren]

I had a Nexus 5X... it bootlooped... twice....

[limber knot]

Yeah the nexuses were a little rocky

They were sending out money if you documented it

nice phones though

Especially the 6P

Which shut down a lot during the winter

[potent warren]

I loved my 5X ..... but I had to abandon it and get a new phone

So I decided to get a 2 XL

(this was last year)

[limber knot]

I loved my HTC One M8

I got a one plus 5T

then I had to replace it because calls stopped working

ahm, are you talking about phones?

[potent warren]

ye

[limber knot]

Yes

got an S7 and after 6 months it was so bad I switched to an iPhone

I've an Huawei Mate 20 Lite

gg samsung

[potent warren]

I don't need always up-to-date fancy phones. Heck, even the first Pixel phone has received Android 10...

[limber knot]

O Samsung is awful now

[potent warren]

Meanwhile other brands can't even push updates for more than a year

[limber knot]

They started declining with the s3

[potent warren]

Samsung phones 🤢

[limber knot]

They started putting in hardware in the s3 that didn’t have a long lifespan

The s5 a locked bootloader

Tbh most of my issues are all software with them

their hardware quality seems to be moving back up

[potent warren]

Isn't that called... uh... planned obsolescence?

[limber knot]

I used custom ROMs till they blocked the bootloader

No, only Apple does that

:^)

[potent warren]

Sure thing....

[limber knot]

arent custom ROMs insecure?

[potent warren]

Most aren't..

[limber knot]

No, they aren’t

^

[potent warren]

If you are careful and know what you're doing, you get it working easily

[limber knot]

Android ad a whole is insecure

A lot are more secure because they're more updated than the base software that gets abandoned

*as

android oems and updates, name a more iconic duo

But no google play store..

Yes play store

You just flash another package with gapps

[potent warren]

Google seems to be trying to push security with their fancy TPM chip 😐

[limber knot]

I opted to not have the play store

Lol Apple copy

[potent warren]

😄

[limber knot]

They need to sandbox apps more first

[potent warren]

Android is a whole mess

So much so that they had to make endless "support" libraries

[limber knot]

althought 90% of play-store is shit, I personaly cant live without it..

[potent warren]

aka things that should be on Android by default but aren't

[limber knot]

manualy searching for updates is boring..

[potent warren]

Why not just use the Yalp?

[limber knot]

I’m not ok with the idea that apps can scan my phones system libraries

[potent warren]

*Yalp Store

[limber knot]

Which is exactly something Facebook was doing

Yalp what?

[potent warren]

https://github.com/yeriomin/YalpStore

[limber knot]

F-droid or Aurora App Store

F-droid is great

[potent warren]

not quite...

There are a lot of apps that aren't there.