#ST:SNW:S03E10

131 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

mighty hare
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I just sat down to watch this episode and I'm confused by the "previously on" I've stopped the episode before it even gets to 2:00 minutes.

When is all of that from?

wraith heart
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As I recall it's from a handful of different episodes. Some of it (about Pike eventually having an accident) is covered in S1E1 (and possibly a bit in Season 2 of Discovery?), the Gorn incubating inside Batel starts in S2E10 and carries through some of early season 3. But then the rest (most of the previously on) is from S3E5.

mighty hare
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I do not recognise that young black man or those eye mask/goggles at all. Maybe I skipped E5 somehow

wraith heart
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That character was in several episodes early in the season but most prominently in Episode 5

fleet dove
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That sure was a medium episode of doctor who in a star trek wrapper

sacred socket
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this season overall has oscillated from bad to mid.

fleet dove
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I hope it's just due to the writer's strike and not some political realignment behind the scenes like some people are thinking to appeal to more conservative future owners

sacred socket
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"our ships need to be in perfect synchronicity what do we use ? computers ? no don't be silly lets have two people do Vulcan mind magic."

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(a nitpick because i know what they are doing with it but still silly)

wraith heart
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Actually that part of it didn't bug me as much as what they are doing with it. Because in-universe it's been established that computers aren't great at piloting (even though that often doesn't make sense) - they have Picard take over manually in Booby Trap, Riker rather than Data is the best pilot on the ship, etc etc.

But I read 'what they are doing with it' to be, Oh Kirk and Spock are bonded and such good friends because they've mind-melded. But I vastly prefer for them to be close friends without some extra super-human bonding event like a mind-meld, just through shared experience together, because that makes it more relatable?

sacred socket
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I don't think it's what they meant, more like it's willingness to trust which is why he accepted.

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(although i still have 11 mion to go in the ep)

wraith heart
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(I think most of my take on that is based on the last scene between them which you haven't gotten to yet then?)

sacred socket
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just past it

cobalt garnet
# wraith heart Actually that part of it didn't bug me as much as what they are doing with it. B...

To your first point, its implied that computers in ST don't take on "creative" solutions to problems, such as in the afforementioned Booby Trap, when Picard uses the gravity sling of one of the larger asteroids to assist them with escaping the field. We see this lack of creativity mirrored in Data when he talks about not coming up with his own style but instead blending two others in his musical work, Picard, being a good captain, suggests that the choice of the differing composers is a creative choice.

Because if Computers are allowed to get "creative" we get M5, Peanuthamper, Badgey, and the Texas-class.

vast sparrow
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And Moriarty

wraith heart
# cobalt garnet To your first point, its implied that computers in ST don't take on "creative" s...

Yeah I totally get that this is the reason. I just don't buy it (from the show). The gravity slingshot is maybe the best example of this to me. Data is completely astounded that he's done that. NASA had been doing gravity-assists for decades by the time it was written, let alone when it's set; it shouldn't be a surprise or creative. Plus that level of piloting is basically just physics - computers should be very good without needing creativity.

I would buy the creativity argument much more if it were a situation with other people which needed to be adapted to (like combat)

cobalt garnet
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Well. The asteroid fields in Star Trek are also a lot more dense and erratic than they are in real life.

sacred socket
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in fiction in general

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better drama

cobalt garnet
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Im just saying they behave more like the variable rich scenarios like combat as suggested.

wraith heart
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Well the difference in my mind is not how complex it is; it's about whether there is a person at work vs just physics. A lot of physics is still just physics (and the type of the thing which computers really outperform humans at)

cobalt garnet
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Overall I wasnt a huge fan of this episode. This felt more like a "well, shit, how do we fully end the Batel arc?" Than a story that had real gravitas. Also wasnt a huge fan of the magic genetic jigsaw puzzle to create a superbeing as that feels weird. Like, what if the answer to "the Chase" was you get Captain America rather than just a Holographic "hey kids, get along" message.

fleet dove
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I'm a bit confused if "virtually every' species has encountered these beings and gotten a genetic adaptation, why is batel being human with bits of gorn, illirian, and plant "every species"

low ridge
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Someone on the writing staff saw Zendikar in magic and went "We can have crazy powerful creatures hidden behind these floating hedrons too!"

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but yeah, this sure was a season of television.

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Not sure it was the season of Star Trek I was expecting

fleet dove
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Between the real bad stuff and the mid stuff and the cramming in of references at the expense of story and characters just recycling other's plotlines if they're lucky enough to even get one, this season has really damaged the show for me

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It's the worst season of nu trek outside of picard imo

cobalt garnet
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This season was so middling I've gone back and started rewatching Enterprise and going "wow, this isnt half bad!"

fleet dove
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I rewatched some lower decks today and briefly experienced nirvana

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Also hey remember how bate had her whole "you don't get to decide my future" speech in four and a half Vulcans and it turns out her future was decided all along

vast sparrow
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I think my frustration at this series is that it just hasn't really been doing what Trek does. It's probably fine TV, some maybe even good, some absolutely terrible, but it hasn't been exploring the human condition or asking interesting questions, it's just been taking stories from other shows and warming them over with a sheen of TOS

fleet dove
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In retrospect maybe the most important episode of S1 was lift us up where suffering cannot reach, which was such a ripoff of the ones who walk away from omelas that it almost felt legally actionable

vast sparrow
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I mean, sure, but ripping off literature that hasn't been shown to TV audiences feels different, and kinda part of Trek's stock in trade

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Versus ripping off episodes that were done better in other popular TV shows

versed pond
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what the doctor who dungeons and dragons is this?

cobalt garnet
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I was also reminded recently that Enterprise did an "Enemy Mine" as well. Trek cant seem to escape that plot concept every decade or so.

alpine echo
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It's a common trope. I recall an old Battlestar Galactica episode that did it!

cobalt garnet
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Wasn't that an episode of Galactica 1980?

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"The Return of Starbuck" wasnt it?

versed pond
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does G'kar and Lando stuck in the elevator count as enemy mine?

cobalt garnet
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It lacks the language barrier that sometimes shows up.

versed pond
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oh hey this episode remembered other kirk exists, wonder if the brothers will appear on camera together

alpine echo
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are you in the middle of watching the episode at the moment?

versed pond
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yeah

cobalt garnet
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Still a missed opportunity by not having them played by the same actor with/sans mustache

alpine echo
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yeah, should have done

versed pond
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I refuse to believe they filmed that with them in the same room at the same time

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'a large number of uncharted planet's' oh hey, 3 seasons in and we finally get those strange new worlds

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I stand by my dr who comparison

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that felt far more dr who than star trek

cobalt garnet
rain nova
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Regarding Omelas, I actually would LOVE if they stuck to that concept: Each episode is based on a classic SF short story that hasn't been adapted for television yet. AND fully properly acknowledge the original authors with a "Story by" credit.

vast sparrow
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Other than the credit part I feel like that's at least ⅓ of TOS

fleet dove
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Well they just straight up had some famous sci fi authors writing for that show

hybrid lantern
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After watching it, I’m really not a fan of destiny plots and I wasn’t really sold on how we remotely got here. The mind meld was the least weird part to me as a solution and it was more weird that just shoot the door from orbit was the grand solution. This has issues that I really dislike in media where we have jumped to wild conclusions and we just are right about it. Timey wimey nonsense got us here and somehow it got us out

versed pond
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honestly I think the mind meld was fine, it just put them into sync. basically they were drift compatible

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as for the destiny plot it really felt like it should have been built to over the course of a season and just wasn't

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MBenga is like 'this is my destiny to be here' so he can do what?

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he said like 3 words and got shot and was lying on the ground while Wynona Earp showed up and saved the day

hybrid lantern
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Yeah there was like one episode maybe building to this destiny thing and that was it. It really felt like a story in mtg where we almost released the eldrazi all the way down to the hedrons

versed pond
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what happened this season?

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The show wasn't exactly groundbreaking in season 1 and 2 but it wasn't a mess like this

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did a head writer leave or something?

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I think the 'the people who grew up watching star trek are now the ones writing star trek' thing is very true at least

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I feel like at least part of the issue is frankly the choice of setting. making it Pike and using the TOS characters locks out a lot of what they could do because there's a defined end point for a lot of the characters. taking all these charactes and giving them a different name and putting it post dominion war you could have done a lot of this but also be lacking the restrictions

hybrid lantern
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I think since Discovery the writers are struggling to find an identity for Star Trek as a whole and feel like that continues to be true

rain nova
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I don't mind legacy characters and the performances are great, but yeah it does feel strange how often Jim Kirk feels like a Cousin Oliver.

versed pond
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he spends more time on enterprise than his own ship

rain nova
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We don't even see Farragut's captain speak. How often does one ship hail another's XO directly, bypassing their captain?

versed pond
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said it before and I'll say it again, just give me a post dominion war series that explores the galaxy

rain nova
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Contemporaneous with Voyager-ish? You might get interrupted by a couple of TNG movie events.

versed pond
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set it a bit later. like 20 years later

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clean slate, here's the new enterprise, has a faster drive than before, they're going to the beta quadrant.

rain nova
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It is funny that we now have two "lost eras", the first between TOS and TNG and the second in the centuries between Prodigy and Discovery.

versed pond
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I'm just so tired of prequels.... so tired. and not just in star trek...

rain nova
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Prodigy and Lower Decks managed to strike the right balance between originality and nostalgia. (Mostly.)

vast sparrow
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Also with the whole "shooting the door open" thing, they said they were using a particle stream (can't remember what, antiprotons?) which, wouldn't that amount of energy in the form of a narrow particle stream boil the atmosphere?

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It feels like one of those things where they made the techno babble too understandable to the point that it causes problems

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And is M'Benga dead? It felt like we glossed straight over anything about him after Gamble shot him

fleet dove
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I dnt think it's so much trek having an identity issue as it is each series having its own identity, like lower decks and comedy, prodigy being teen adventure show, discovery embracing the modern prestige TV format, and picard deciding to be bad

low ridge
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best I could guess while the episode was going on was that he was needed to be there so that Pike would have someone to leave with

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it's a 2 in 2 out situation at that prison

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Genuinely my favourite thing of the whole damned season might be the "captain's mess is a formal affair" hazing ritual getting Scotty

fleet dove
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But snw has struggled with its identity - is it TOS 2? Is it a workplace drama? Is it a place for experimental formats? Is it trying to build an origin story for the five year mission?

vast sparrow
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I kinda agree that baiting the Spirk shippers was my favourite part of the episode

versed pond
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I referred to it as TOS 2.0 and was told I was wrong

vast sparrow
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S1 felt pretty TOS 2.0, but it has gotten ever further from there

hybrid lantern
fleet dove
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I know, I was saying I think trek as a whole's deal right now is to be a lot of different flavours

versed pond
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Trek seems to generally reflect the era and this era is such a mess that it kinda makes sense...

hybrid lantern
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Let me rephrase this, I don’t if Star Trek wants to be a space nerdy sci if show or a more generic drama. I felt with more recent trek with the exception of Lower Decks it is uncomfortable with the former

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That’s been my experience from observation

versed pond
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we had discovery post BSG, GOT, Expanse, so it was darker.
we got the reboots in the late 2000s when reboots were a big thing
we got enterprise when I wasn't watching star trek...

and then there's this era where the people who grew up watching classic scifi are now making scifi and don't really seem to know what they want aside from their youth back....

sacred socket
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DIS clearly wanted to be big drama about big emotions (and also saving the universe by crying about it)

versed pond
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seriously, Lower Decks starts as a Trek Parody Shitpost that becomes very heartfelt. Picard is a nostalgia trip that falls flat. Orville is straight up TOS/TNG Homage, and SNW is "I really, really wanna remake TOS but they won't let me"

vast sparrow
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I feel like Discovery wasn't what I want from Trek, but I still appreciate what it was doing and feel like it should exist. Picard less so, and SNW is getting less so as it goes on

versed pond
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Discovery at least tried to take some risks

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I will give them credit for actually trying to do things

hybrid lantern
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Yeah. I’ll continue to second that since the current era is confused and a mess Star Trek ends being confused. I wish instead the writers offered a vision of what they wanted from the world more consistently rather than what I feel like they think people want

versed pond
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and I feel like that while I don't like the 'oh by the federation will collapse ina few hundred years' thing the last couple seasons of it were decent

vast sparrow
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I really wish Picard had stuck to what it was doing in S1 and evolved from there because it had a kernel of something where people would have said "S1 is a bit rough but by the time you're half way through S2 it's great", but instead it changed direction to something less interesting every series

versed pond
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s1: this is why we need to let Data go and let him rest, as all good things end
s3: so this is how we brought Data back.

vast sparrow
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Also: we must have at least 1 new character played by Brett Spiner every series

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It's cool seeing him pop up every so often but Picard forgot he's a sometimes food

versed pond
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hot take, they never should have killed Data at all

vast sparrow
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It kinda took the shine off Purple Data in LD

versed pond
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but Nemesis is a whole other mess...

hybrid lantern
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We should get that Jeffery Combs guy in a episode or two I think he’d be a good fit for Star Trek 😏

vast sparrow
vast sparrow
fleet dove
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I don't think snw is being disallowed from being or doing anything, I think they're just kinda bad at their jobs

versed pond
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I remember from the trailers thinking it was going to be some alternate universe movie, maybe the mirror universe but it was... that

vast sparrow
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I'm not sure whether my favourite Combs is DS9 or ENT

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But I still enjoyed his LD

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No I'm not going to specify which character

hybrid lantern
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DS9 combs is pretty strong as someone who watched DS9 for the first time in full last year

sacred socket
vast sparrow
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Brunt and Weyoun are both excellent in very different ways

hybrid lantern
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Weyoun is a very good villain in a way that’s better than a lot of villains I’ve seen in recent television

versed pond
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which Weyoun?

low ridge
cobalt garnet
vast sparrow
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Right sorry yes he's in it, he's just no longer CMO somehow

cobalt garnet
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He decides he wants to take a step back, specialize, maybe his charges finally catch up to him.

vast sparrow
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It's just... It's odd. I get them not having McCoy yet but why didn't they make CMO someone we hadn't seen before?

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Or the role is unfilled for reasons

cobalt garnet
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Theres also Boyce who has to show up for whatever reason.

fleet dove
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It's a nostalgia bait nod and a surface level progressive choice