#The Mandalorian S3E3

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dry wyvern
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new ep, new thread

terse brook
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So far, I can't say I like this one.

dry wyvern
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so the middle section is very ||Andor at home||

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Loved the start, liked the end, the middle was...fine, but just a different show? Like, a totally different show?

terse brook
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I'm not finished yet, but so far I am very, very wary

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I can't say I like the treatment of former Imperial officers

dry wyvern
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its very odd and rather dump

terse brook
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It's not the kind of show I want when I watch The Mandalorian

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Oh I knew it

grand trench
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Boba Fett had stealth Mando, and now Mando has stealth Andor!

terse brook
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If this is how Star Wars shows are gonna be from now on, then maybe I shouldn't watch them

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I liked Boba Fett, but it being 6+ different shows in about as many episodes was not good. These shows have a limited run of episodes. I'd rather they didn't waste my time or theirs

bleak sequoia
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I've heard people say this episode is very Andor, so maybe what I should do is go watch that show...

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But

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I think this is my favourite episode of Mando.

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I mean, I'm an absolute sucker for when a TV show just decides ||"Here's a sidestep into a really solidly-constructed, character-focused short story in our world. Enjoy."||

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But also holy fuck was it good.

cursive shore
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You should 100% watch Andor

clever shore
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It's Tesco's Own Brand Andor

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I dunno, I wasn't a fan, like it was done okay but it really feels like Filoni hasn't learned his lesson from Book of Boba Fett

terse brook
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I think he's maybe too used to writing episodic stuff, making focused arc stuff like this a little too much for him. I really think he should just do an Anthology series instead

last pumice
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oh man. The Mandalorian once again takes 5 seconds to think about the worldbuilding of one of Star Wars's most famous settings and makes it tactile and interesting. The idea that the only place on Coruscant where you can see the actual planet underneath all of the Mega City structures is essentially a big rock in a public park that is also the highest mountain peak on the surface is so existentially upsetting

spark saddle
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I think this episode makes clear that they're having a hard time splitting their attention between a show being three things

  1. A consistent tone
  2. A consistent cast of characters
  3. A specific time or place
    They keep changing which of these they use to define what fits inside a show, and it's definitely becoming a bit unsteady to watch.
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I liked the episode, but it had the barest justification of being Mando related

grand trench
last pumice
terse brook
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I know that a lot of folks dislike Sequel Luke for not being like how he was in the OT, but the New Republic doing some absolutely heinous shit here has really irked me

spark saddle
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Even if it ties in, being reduced to a number working numbly in another machine after the old one was toppled is... huh, maybe more narratively cohesive to the plot of this season of Mando than I thought.

last pumice
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I mean, The New Republic being a well intentioned bureaucratic nightmare is both narratively interesting and also still an improvement over a fascist hellscape bureaucratic nightmare

grand trench
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Mando takes place between 6 and 7 right?

last pumice
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if nothing else this episode really hammered home how sad Coruscant must be to exist in

spark saddle
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It's a "I feel bad as a fan" thing, because our 'good guys' suck, and it hasn't even been long enough for there to be a good reason for them to suck, they just... do.

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Like, excuse everything else you want as necessary or whatever, why did they take away their names? That's... just cruel stuff.

last pumice
terse brook
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The whole name thing is just so, so wrong

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The non-consensual Electroshock, the ghettos, the uniforms. It's all just horrible Fascist shit

last pumice
grand trench
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Also we "need" to get to First Order, so this could be a step towards that

dry wyvern
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yea, the thing which really got to me was the name thing. Like...you want to humanise these people, maybe start with a name?

last pumice
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im fine with the idea that The New Republic kind of sucks. Its narratively interesting and produces a lot of interesting consequences. Hell, iirc The New Republic essentially chooses to foregoe rebuilding a military, an idea that Leia things is dumb as fuck but gets approved anyway, is what eventually leads her to form The Resistance to oppose The First Order

spark saddle
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It may make sense, but it does feel awful. Especially since we know in the future, nobody actually does anything in response to that to make things better.

dry wyvern
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yea, them decomissioning the alliance fleet sure is a dumb action needed to get to a stupid future.

last pumice
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maybe im coming at this differently cause the only Dumb Future I can think of is Rise of Skywalker

dry wyvern
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Also the first order, and the alliance having a peace treaty with it, sure is a take. It's like if the Nazis had set up a new reich in bavaria and the Wallies and the russians just said yea, sure, no problems, want to trade?

fathom grail
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Well! A lot certainly happened in that one.

spark saddle
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Like, the reason people keep saying it's Andor 1.5 is because just like in Andor, we see things we're bad before the Empire, and now they're bad after, but... what is anyone doing about it!? Don't just make Star Wars sad because you can, do something to make it better!

grand trench
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they also need to explain all the Snoke clones!

fathom grail
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I'm very confused about whether whatshername the former communications officer is still actively working for Gideon or just a sociopath getting her kicks.

terse brook
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Star Wars does not need to be, and frankly shouldn't be, an Everything and Everyone is Bad world

fathom grail
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I give it about 50/50 either way

terse brook
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I am fairly sure she's still working for Gideon/The Empire

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I think she was specifically planted there to foster resentment and dissent

spark saddle
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I thought she knew the horrors the cloning could bring, and decided to nip it in the bud. But it could be almost anything

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But! This is our space ronin and his cute baby wizard show! I don't wanna be sad, I wanna feel warm and fuzzy. Grumble grumble

last pumice
dry wyvern
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I thought she was a former empire worker who was weeding out the worst of the remaining empire people? Like, she looked at him as Mengela and decided no, fuck this guy getting off lightly

spark saddle
dry wyvern
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oh, for sure

fathom grail
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I also feel like the New Republic is definitely still way better than the empire, even if it's still doing some bad things. Like, the people administering the brainwashing did seem sincere that they were trying to rehabilitate Pershing, not torturing him for stepping out of line.

dry wyvern
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Maybe she will end up as replacement Cara Dun

fathom grail
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That's...a degree of progress, I think.

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Also that there are aliens at all involved is also good.

terse brook
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I very much read her as Spy. Which is why she still has access to stuff like Imperial rations. It's not because she's looting them off decommissioned ships, it's because she's getting them on the sly

dry wyvern
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See I assumed that initially, but then she was spy, but for the republic - the republic would have access to essentially infinite imperial rations, she was using them to see who hadn't "taken" to the rehabilitation process

fathom grail
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I think the "she's trying to stop fanatical imperials" angle is pretty unlikely. If it was, why did she play him like a fiddle into doing the whole song and dance? And why would she crank up the brainwashing? If the NR medics thought a low setting was appropriate for what was being done, she'd have no reason to crank it up except for kicks.

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I should add: I loved loved loved the fighter sequence at the beginning.

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I'm a huge mark for dogfights in Star Wars.

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Also I bet that our brainwashing person and all those TIE Interceptors both work for Thrawn.

terse brook
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I recognized her from the previous season, but I can't remember if she was sympathetic or not. But this makes her very much not honestly. But still, I just really, really dislike how the NR came off here

dry wyvern
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@fathom grail It felt (possibly) like she was doing an 'angel of death' type thing; bring in the worst former imperials, hope the republic executes them, apply own punishment if not. But...it's very unclear

fathom grail
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For me, that's kind of undercut by the fact that she was on Gideon's ship and had a chance to see that Pershing is kind of an idiot, rather than someone out to restart the Clone Wars. Like, Pershing's very sincere.

terse brook
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He's someone who was clearly always uncomfortable with working for the Empire, and was a fairly big security risk. So pushing him back towards the Empire "willingly" so he can go on and help create Snoke seems like a Plan

spark saddle
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But then she juiced his brain.

terse brook
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It's a torture device. Either he gets the brain scramblies, or it just causes him a whole lot of pain. EIther of which I think works fine.

spark saddle
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He was afraid of it wiping his mind, but supposedly he could relearn cloning? I dunno, the whole thing just doesn't sit right with anything we can confirm yet.

last pumice
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i dont think Mandalorian needs to do any sort of heavy lifting to setup The Force Awakens, especially not now where we're only about 7-8 years out from RotJ

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oh hey, we got a character poster for the best character in the show

409eb3909dd7e6bd035ac3893d45f185.png
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where's her spinoff

terse brook
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Yes, please. Give me the Ship Restoration show. That was the best part of Book of Boba Fett

spark saddle
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I can't believe she exists in the same show as the Dark Republic we saw. More of her please!

brave sky
# dry wyvern so the middle section is very ||Andor at home||

This. Maybe the timelines don't quite line up, but this episode feels very much like an attempt by the showrunners to pivot hard and find a way to give Mandalorian the praise that Andor got, but without any understanding of why it worked other than "talking about fascism and authoritarianism". Like, yeah, I will take this over what we got the last two episodes, but its still a pale imitation of Andor, and falls into the trap Andor avoided so well by being a very obvious 1 to 1 "This guy is a Nazi scientist who ran a concentration camp and got scooped up in Operation Paperclip, but Star Wars". Andor was far, far more subtle, and while the parallels to real world events was there, it was general and universal, so you could rightly compare the riots on Ferrix to the Stonewall riots, the February Revolution, the Arab Spring, the Iranian womens revolution - so many uprisings through history.

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And I don't think its an unfair comparison, because it's the same damn franchise, and there is no way the team making The Mandalorian weren't aware of, and trying to invite the comparison.

weary vector
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Also this episodes slaps.

I am all for side quest episodes that flesh out the world.

spark saddle
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I got the feeling from this and Boba Fett that what they really want to do is just have Star Wars: The New Republic, and, honestly if they committed to that, just a single show with a wide lens that we get to check in at various places and plotlines over time, I could see these kinds of asides as more easy to take.

brave sky
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I honestly feel they have no idea what they want to do, and are just spinning their wheels.

spark saddle
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Well, that too, but I was trying to be generous, lol

weary vector
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I mean, most of this episode is from plot points from series 1- bo thinking about the mythsaur as a sigil and what that would mean to her being worthy/being part of something bigger. where did the doctor end up, and using that as an example of how you reintegrate millions of imperial soldiers, workers and staff back into a new republic. And getting back to the way for din.

Plus the “whole empire, new republic, old republic I try not to get involved” lady which directly connects to last Jedi- that there is an entire section of the galaxy’s population where the wars just don’t matter to them.

They’re not spinning, they’re entirely world building and using the lowest of the lows to do it.

dusty patio
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I get the criticism but I loved this episode for exploring more of Coruscant through the lens of someone closer to just a normal citizen

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And if you expect good things from the New Republic then I think you are unfortunately condemned to being disappointed by them, so it's whatever

dry wyvern
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I think for me, LOK, it's less that I didn't expect to be disappointed - they clearly didn't get high functioning within 30 years of the end of the empire, or indeed remotely competent - it's more some of the choices they had them make are painfully transparently terrible

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like, giving the doctor happy brain drugs from the bad machine? I can totally see that. The brutalist appartments, spying on them, the uniforms - all (bad) but ok choices

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the names tho...how can that possibly do other than breed resentment and distrust?

karmic orchid
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Referring to them by designation instead of name.

spark saddle
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Yeah, that's what crossed the line for me too. That's not the work of an empathetic yet dysfunctional new regime, that's malice.

karmic orchid
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Which is...well, pretty realistic.

spark saddle
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The only other point in time I know of that did that was the New Order with their Stormtroopers.

karmic orchid
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After all the brutalities the Empire put on the galaxy, I'm not terribly surprised that this is how the New Republic has chosen to treat those asking for amnesty.

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(Am I defending it? No. I'm just not surprised.)

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I'm also not terribly surprised at how terrible Coruscant and the new government seems to be. I get the feeling that unlike the Legends novels, Coruscant was more of a Rome that just changed symbols but never really changed in terms of bread and circuses, from Republic to Empire to New Republic.

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"They just got rid of the cogs (Imperial symbols)"

dry wyvern
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see this is one of the things which annoys me - you depose the empire, there is essentially no way the presidential race isn't Leia VS Mon Mothma or similar, at least the first time

karmic orchid
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I think it's already been established in canon that Mon Mothma became became chancellor after a brief stint by whats his name to transition the government back nice and legally.

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Twi'lik supporter of Palpatine. What's his name. He even tried to surrender to the NR but they turned him down because he had no power and no interest in taking him in (They asked him to official surrender the Empire and he basically said he couldn't, the military had control)

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And then opponents of Leia, who apparently were either sympathetic to the First Order or secretly working with them ruined Leia's reputation by leaking that Darth Vader was her father.

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Of course, tv/movies overrides the new novels, but that's what's out there at the moment.

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It also seems not great on retrospect of the sequels that the Republic dismantled the Alliance fleet, but also sort of understandable (the post-Imperial galaxy probably not wanting a large standing fleet)

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It kind of reminds me of the critiques of After Happily Ever After in Disney stuff...there's a lot of hard work now that the Empire is gone and the focus of a common enemy is gone.

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(At this point is Coruscant even the capital? I think they were already starting to rotate it by this point?)

dry wyvern
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Yea, there's a lot of work but - I dunno, 8 years out I would hope they were not yet at this shitty stage

brave sky
# karmic orchid Which is...well, pretty realistic.

Is it, though? Did the scientists the US picked up in Operation Paperclip get officially called "that nazi fuck" by their coworkers forever? The titular character in Dr. Strangelove has to have his name explained to another character cause he changed it. Part of the hyperviolent revenge fantasy of Inglorious Basterds was carving swatstikas into Nazis foreheads so they'd never be able to hide from who they were.

Its not like thats an abberation, either - Confederates didn't wait a single moment after surrender was declared to start rewriting their own narrative. Confederates got elected to congress.

modern quail
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So I'm about halfway in, but still experiencing whiplash. How did this show pivot into something decent out of nowhere 0o

modern quail
dry wyvern
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And I mean that kind of thing can happen, after enough time, but...yeeesh

modern quail
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to be fair, that's like almost two decades

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more I think

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like the surviving kids are solidly in their twenties by the time Daala takes office

karmic orchid
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Also the whole reorganization of the New Republic into the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances

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Just to make a galaxy far far away joke.

weary vector
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That’s a very good joke tho

karmic orchid
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It also let the Good Guys call their side the Alliance again

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Even though Federation makes more sense, but that's the Other Franchise

limber heron
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I liked this episode a lot but it’s getting a bit close to both sidesing the topics it’s talking about which I’m not a fan of specifically from Disney. This would also undercut Andor in possibly the worst way. It was also weird how we got like a whole other episode in the middle and I think this could have been split up differently but it was still fun

modern quail
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I mean you're not wrong, but both sidesing fashists and people that fight them is a whole disney star wars tradition at this point

limber heron
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Yeah, and I struggle to separate the Disney part from the story it’s trying to tell but I have enjoyed this season thus far

vocal oracle
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The trashing of tech feels like the beginnings of Clone Wars style fix fic to patch some of the holes in the sequel trilogy–as mentioned above, the lack of a New Republic military or the state of things that led Leia to making her own. Which I don't hate. One of favorite things in TBoBF is that its portrayal of Luke absolutely felt like a man on the road to becoming the kind of teacher he regretted by the time of the sequels, even if it wasn't intended by the writers

modern quail
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Though that too would work much better if it wasn't actively at war with everything else the show has been showing us

vocal oracle
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Which?

modern quail
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The parts where we see imperial remnant warlords lug around tie bombers by the squadron to be spent on petty vendettas, see them float around in fully manned star destroyers building incredibly inefficient supersoldiers, see entire planets that are still effectively enslaved as imperial mining colonies, etc etc

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With how massive of a presence the imperial remnant has in this show, (nvm pirates floating around in warships etc), this level of hasty disarmament is at best negligent, and certainly not any more justified than it was before

dry wyvern
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Yea, disarmament VS at least some whole number fraction of the imperial navy seems daft

dusty patio
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it's not total disarmament unless i've missed something? the new republic maintained a fleet, and although it wasn't as big as the alliance fleet it's supposed to have been bigger than any imperial fleet

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but also the new republic is a bunch of dum-dums, so i don't mind this just being yet another own goal

cursive shore
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fully manned star destroyers
We've yet to see that, right?

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Moff Gideon's ship was a Class 546, a modified Arquitens

1000.png
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The class 546 is 381 meters long with a minimum crew of 100 and a total crew including stormtroopers of 1000

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The "classic" star destroyer is the Imperial Class, which is about 1600 meters, and a massive regular crew of almost 10,000 officers and nearly 30,000 enlisted

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(Plus stormtroopers and pilots)

modern quail
# cursive shore Moff Gideon's ship was a Class 546, a modified Arquitens

I mean, I feel like "it's only a real Star Destroyer if it was built in the Imperial II class region of the Kuat Driveyards, otherwise it's just sparkling orbital genocide by triangular warship" would be pretty cold comfort to the approximately 95% of settlements we've seen in this show that would be just as boned if either shows up over their planet

cursive shore
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I'm not meaning it as any kind of comfort, but there's scales of deployment ability, and the New Republic would find it a lot easier to push out and dissuade a bunch of Arquitens than a fully laden Star Destroyer

modern quail
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I mean, there's two ways of looking at this

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from a visual storytelling perspective, to an even remotely casual audience that 100% scans as a star destroyer

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and from a pedantic in universe perspective, whoever attacked Bo Katan last episode must have something considerably bigger 😛

limber heron
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It like saying, “well look some unhinged warlords have a nuclear submarine but hey at least they don’t have an aircraft carrier.” Like there is still an active threat to galactic security

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It make even less sense by the show own admission and shows that take place earlier in the timeline to disarm

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Also, || if Thrawn becomes a threat right before the events of the sequels that drives the point even more that they shouldn’t disarm||

cursive shore
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but we;ll see if it's to the scale of a fully staffed star destroyer

dry wyvern
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They had a pretty big tiefighter wing, whoever they were - It seemed like a couple of dozen bombers and intercepters and other ties

cursive shore
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I'm thinking it's more likely to be some sort of small fleet, like the Rebels built up in Rebels, likely including a Quasar Fire class carrier

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But we'll see

limber heron
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I would be happy to see that ship again. That would be pretty cool

fathom grail
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I'm confident that it was ||Thrawn|| who attacked Bo-Katan.

I also believe that there have previously been novels and such that established that the New Republic was explicitly limiting its central authority and that included its military. So I think the idea is that most security would be handled by local fleets. So, for example, Mon Calamari would have a strong naval presence, but the New Republic wouldn't.

terse brook
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Is a space fleet a navy or air force?

fathom grail
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Most sci fi uses naval parallels for space stuff, including SW EU

wide kestrel
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also makes kind of sense in the kind of people and organisation you'd need with a fleet of spaceships

brave sky
limber heron
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I feel like it’s no secret that Star Wars specifically takes heavy influence from Second World War aircraft carrier duels pushing it closer to navy parallels

dry wyvern
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I think in general the modern conception of big spaceships is much closer to a navy in general; big ships, lots of crew, kind of slow moving, battles often take place as essentially artilliary duels, etc

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Like, love it or hate it, the chase in TLJ is very much a battleship chasing a cruiser on the open sea kind of setup.

brave sky
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Hence why basically nobody who engages in spaceship fights can ever think in more than 4 directions.

modern quail
wide kestrel
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I have some bad news for you :p

fathom grail
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I mean, Filoni already did a lot of work with Thrawn?

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He was big in Rebels.

modern quail
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Which I've purposefully chosen to ignore, both because of the uncanny animation and because afaik it's responsible for some of the dumbest additions to canon Disney has made

brave sky
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Dumber than "Somehow, Palpatine has returned"?

modern quail
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I mean, not quite, but the inquisitors are pretty up there

wide kestrel
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it's less dumb and more ... all the stuff I dislike about Star Wars nerdery of somebody who grew up with the Expanded Universe

fathom grail
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The Inquisitors are there because they needed boss battles for Jedi video games

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(Jedi: Fallen Order is great)

modern quail
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I mean, the "and they spin their lightsabers really fast so they fly" really does sound like a ten year olds fanfiction idea, doesn't it?

fathom grail
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It does! Fortunately they've said that they could only do that in that one temple because of all the Dark Side energy there.

modern quail
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honestly though, the inquisitors in the obi wan show were almost worse somehow

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like, the dude that's constantly berating his subordinate cause she's... too guided by her emotions? Not professional enough with civillians? ... Like, my brother in the force, you might want to fucking look up what a Sith is

fathom grail
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The Grand Inquisitor? He was a former Jedi Guardian, so he's probably pretty uptight by nature.

brave sky
dry wyvern
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The rule of 2 is the actual worst dumbest part of starwars cannon. Worse than somehow palpatine returned, worse than "NOOOOOOOOOOO" worse than ewoks. It's just the absolute dumbest rule.

wide kestrel
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I think it's like kinda fine in a myth sense, but it just falls apart when you try to be too faithful to it and add to it at the same time

dry wyvern
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it's just a terrible rule that causes the sith to die out within a generation and also is always ignored.

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Like, Yoda's initial exclamation of it in TPM is fine - the sith tend to work in pairs, a master and an apprentice. But only ever exactly 2? wowsers.

brave sky
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It makes sense to me. The Sith would place far, far more value on their own safety and power than the prosperity of the teachings of the Sith as a whole, which are just a tool for them to use. So you'd obviously want to limit the number of people who could end up stabbing you in the back. They also keep coming back, because it's a tool used by power hungry bastards who would seek it out.

terse brook
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Pretty much. It makes sense, even when it isn't followed. Because of course it isn't.

brave sky
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Because yeah, the Sith don't care about rules. They care about power. The Rule of Two is the most practical way to accrue and keep power, but if they think they can get more power ignoring it and having an army of apprentice's, they'll just do it.

Yoda expecting the Sith to honor their teachings as much as the Jedi honor theirs was just another sign he fundamentally did not understand the Sith.

terse brook
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You know what I want to see in this series? A Basilisk War Droid. I'm fairly sure the writers have the same copy of Essential Guide to Droids that I do, so just gimme it already

modern quail
brave sky
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Who was the second worst?

modern quail
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Revan

spark saddle
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Didn't the Rise of Skywalker kinda adjust the Rule of Two and clarify that it's perpetuation was actually causing some kind of an amalgamation of dark side power? Like, that's why Palpatine was so keen on just fucking someone striking him down in anger, so the power could pass on? Did I misread that, because, for all tRoS's weaknesses, I thought that was a particularly neat take on it.

brave sky
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I couldn't tell what the hell he was talking about with that scene, and I suspect that JJ didn't know either.

modern quail
brave sky
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By that point? Ehhhhhh.....

spark saddle
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Yeah, but isn't it more fun to live in a world where that is the case, if it's open to interpretation?

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Either way that headcanon redeems the Rule of Two for me

brave sky
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It would be good if that scene made the slightest goddamn sense, yeah. Anyway, I'm satisfied with "it's a thing the Sith do because they don't trust each other, with good reason, but also can't work alone, and it would be abandoned like any other belief or principal if it was convenient."

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Anyway, to get back to the point, they've made it very clear they intend to use Thrawn as the Thanos of their Mandalorian Streaming Universe, even explicitly namedropping the character in season 2. So if you are hoping he will not be used, I have bad news.

spark saddle
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I mean, they could use an overarching villain. My hopes of it being A'Sharad Hett in Kenobi didn't work out, so we need someone, eventually.

brave sky
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A villain in Kenobi wouldn't work, unless you were gonna have it be that this was secretly an evil villain in the shadows the entire time the emperor was ruling, and finally emerging afterwards. Which isn't impossible, but seems unlikely.

spark saddle
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It's his actual backstory though, and he was the bad in the first draft, apparently

brave sky
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That's one of the reasons why this strategy doesn't work as well for Star Wars, they keep switching back and forth between before A New Hope, and after Return of the Jedi. So even if they make multiple series a year, these threads can only be picked up in one or two at the most.

That's not even considering wild tonal dissonance that would make it impossible to, say, link Andor and Obi Wan.

grand trench
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oh yeah, new episode tonight

brave sky
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Will it be better than the first two episodes again? Will it have anything to do with The Mandalorian? Is it possible for the answer to both those questions to be yes?

spark saddle
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That's okay, things can differ in tone and still coexist. I mean that's how old Expanded Universe stuff was. It just seems they're hesitant to actually give us a wider thing tying it all together, which is fine for now, but I'm hungry for a big bad to handle, personally.

brave sky
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Has there been any news on that Ashoka show since it was announced>

terse brook
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Not really

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It's still happening AFAIK

weary vector
terse brook
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Only the TV shows

weary vector
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There's a throwaway joke about how the navy found the stargate and not the airforce.

brave sky
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...why was the Navy looking in Egypt?

weary vector
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Classified?

Idk.

cursive shore
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I liked Thrawn in Rebels, and whilst arguably dumb for canon, the "spinning so we can fly now" lightsabers are perfect kid show logic, and Rebels was a kid show in the end.
I like Rebels

limber heron
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I also liked Rebels, even the silly parts

terse brook
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Anything with Sarah Michelle Geller gets a pass from me

dusty patio
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Rebels is easily the best part of Disney Star Wars imo, because it's a fully contained story with strong and clearly defined arcs, interesting characters and a satisfying ending

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There are other really good parts of the other things they've made but nothing else is that kind of package

last pumice
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It also takes Star Wars exactly as seriously as it needs to be. Yeah, there's a fascist government we're rebelling against. But there also Lightspeed Space Whales, a wisecracking trash can with a buzz saw and the 4th Doctor voicing a Giant Force Moose

karmic orchid