that is really cool
#Apple event
upbeat vale
narrow yoke
The notch is weird but with how they are doing it, I'm ok with it
tough grail
That market is quite profitable, but competitors might outperform and prepare tactics. Look at the past, bigger behemonths for their time died. Atari? Commodore? They lack a solid ground, Microsoft rescued them once 😄
narrow yoke
Yeah same. I'm actually really stoked they are finally allowing the 14 inch and 16 inch to have feature parity
hexed sage
That market is quite profitable, but competitors might outperform and prepare ta...
They died because they couldn't keep up. Right now, Apple are the only people pushing consumer level ARM, and are proving it to be successful. AMD and Intel will have to keep up. We already know it's the future with huge players in the server space making transitions to ARM and moving away from A&I to produce their own chips
trim flare
I honestly liked that design
it was a fucking meme
tough grail
I want 100x more power and very advanced AI capabilities, neurochips. The rest if just Moore and limited digital technology. PCs are more modular, anyway
hexed sage
bring back Slot 1!
trim flare
the new macpro could be basically a mac mini will more i/o and stuff to add inside
kinda like the power cube
hexed sage
@trim flare bring back trashcan!
narrow yoke
Its wild to think
That they released the mac pro
and now 2 years later here we are where you can buy a fucking laptop with arguably better power lol.
trim flare
does the m1 max outperform the gpu on the pro?
narrow yoke
😦
tough grail
They died because they couldn't keep up. Right now, Apple are the only people pu...
Who owns ARM? That's the bottleneck. Everything can happen. Licensing an architecture from a third party is risky. Even PowerPC was a joint venture and died, and PowerPC was extremely promising too
narrow yoke
does the m1 max outperform the gpu on the pro?
it looks like it will, yes
trim flare
Who owns ARM? That's the bottleneck. Everything can happen. Licensing an archite...
is this a shitpost?
hexed sage
Who owns ARM? That's the bottleneck. Everything can happen. Licensing an archite...
ARM licenses their cores. Apple makes their own cores
narrow yoke
Im unsure on the highest versions though
narrow yoke
God
tough grail
ARM licenses their cores. Apple makes their own cores
But ARM was going to be bought by NVIDIA. Now the Chinese? That's not a solid ground for an architecture maker. I like ARM, despite it's extremely propietary nature
hexed sage
But ARM was going to be bought by NVIDIA. Now the Chinese? That's not a solid gr...
It's always been Chinese anyways, well at least in part split with the English company
But x86 is also only from Intel and AMD and VIA
and look at where that's led us
tough grail
is this a shitpost?
No. It's history. I want competitive architectures, but world tend to go thought spirals of power monopoly
hexed sage
There's a significant part in China i believe
trim flare
No. It's history. I want competitive architectures, but world tend to go thought...
and what is wrong with what apple is making?
tough grail
and look at where that's led us
I agree. VIA is practically dead
trim flare
x86 will just be a small niche in the market
tough grail
and what is wrong with what apple is making?
It's okay. But I miss powerful workstations outside x86 world. I would prefer ARM to be an ISO standard fastly developed by a mix of public and private research entities, but well
tough grail
x86 will just be a small niche in the market
I'm bored to read that since the 80s. Unfortunately, never dies
trim flare
I'm bored to read that since the 80s. Unfortunately, never dies
It's more true by the day
tough grail
And I don't like X86! It's just X86 still is competitive outside low power world
hexed sage
fooken 8086
narrow yoke
x86 is looking like even the high power segment will be lost here soon
hexed sage
x86 loses a lot to how complicated the ISA is
tough grail
x86 was never meant to be permanent anyways lel
Nothing is meant to be permanent, it happens. Just like corruption, mafias and corporations🤣
hexed sage
makes for a gigantic inefficient decoder that takes up significant area on the die
upbeat vale
x86 is losing ground almost everywhere.
The PC laptop/desktop market is the only market not yet seriously affected.
tough grail
Even Intel tried to kill X86 more than once! They even made ARM CPUs. Itanium. And those weird non-x86 cores
hexed sage
There's something to be said about "to early for its time"
narrow yoke
What a time to be alive
hexed sage
The average consumer is 100% ready for a transition to ARM, considering how everything is a webapp and we have hardware translation layers now. Also things like Intel VBridge, while not finished yet, should provide similar performance to Rosetta
narrow yoke
After the stagnation of intel
tough grail
The PC laptop/desktop market is the only market not yet seriously affected.
x86 never reached success outside desktops and laptops. Servers migth be lost, might not. Legacy compatibility is a key. Tons of supercomputers are still X86 too, etc
narrow yoke
We got the nice boost from AMD
hexed sage
and Intel's system should also allow for ARM apps to run on x86
narrow yoke
And then fuckin Apple is like "hold my beer, kid."
hexed sage
x86 never reached success outside desktops and laptops. Servers migth be lost, m...
aren't a lot of supercomputers MIPS?
upbeat vale
x86 never reached success outside desktops and laptops. Servers migth be lost, m...
The server market would like to correct that statement
The entire cloud revolution was powered by x86
narrow yoke
Wasn't literally everything in computing x86?
With the exception of some rare one off devices?
tough grail
The average consumer is 100% ready for a transition to ARM, considering how ever...
That's a very optimistic assumption. There's gamers, those that refuse to use X86 consoles. Many average users might need things useless thought webapps. Webapps sucks, but that's another thing
narrow yoke
Yeah, I mean x86 consoles aren't exactly going anywhere in the next few years, but that's likely the last hold out until next gen
upbeat vale
POWER has a small but significant market in supercomputing, banking, safety critical industries and the likes
narrow yoke
I can absolutely promise you that Intel and AMD are looking at Apple and thinking twice right now
upbeat vale
but otherwise it was x86 everywhere that wasn't mobile.
hexed sage
That's a very optimistic assumption. There's gamers, those that refuse to use X8...
I would consider gaming outside of the average consumer. Enthusiast PC gaming is a drop in the total gaming market
narrow yoke
I would consider gaming outside of the average consumer. Enthusiast PC gaming is...
It is a drop in bucket, all things considered
tough grail
I would consider gaming outside of the average consumer. Enthusiast PC gaming is...
Enthusiat PC gaming spends 300X more money than average consumer too 😄
hexed sage
what architecture did Motorola have
hexed sage
Enthusiat PC gaming spends 300X more money than average consumer too 😄
That is true, gamers love to consooooooooom
tough grail
aren't a lot of supercomputers MIPS?
TOP500?
hexed sage
That's a very optimistic assumption. There's gamers, those that refuse to use X8...
Also, for most those apps that the average person has that wouldn't be available on an ARM pc... most of those things typically HAVE alternatives, that same group of people just doesn't want to search for the alternatives
upbeat vale
Most apps that the average persons uses already are available on ARM on Windows
Browsers, office, etc. Already there.
hexed sage
indeed.
narrow yoke
Yeah
hexed sage
and with the soon-to-be release Intel VBridge stuff it should not even matter
narrow yoke
The issue the games and professional Applications like Adobe, video editors etc
tough grail
Also, for most those apps that the average person has that wouldn't be available...
But there's an effect that might spoil non-x86 systems, even more than legacy. Even those those average users might need special software even not available for ARM on Windows. ARM on Windows isn't so much of a success
narrow yoke
Then theres also the issue of niche applications
hexed sage
But there's an effect that might spoil non-x86 systems, even more than legacy. E...
W11 is now native to ARM, full support
hexed sage
it's on the list of officially supported CPUs on W11's main page.
narrow yoke
Ok so
hexed sage
Bunch of Qualcomm ARM stuff
tough grail
W11 is now native to ARM, full support
Can you put an NVIDIA or RADEON? Where's the games list? Can it run the latest Call of Duty crap?
narrow yoke
Can I do a VM of W11 on mac OS?
and run anything on windows that I used to run?
Does windows have that translation layer in place?
hexed sage
Can you put an NVIDIA or RADEON? Where's the games list? Can it run the latest C...
I mean... GPUs don't care about what CPU architecture you have. And under x86 emulation yes you can, they released 64 bit emulation modes
tough grail
It used to be, not sure now
hexed sage
The only testing I've seen of it though was under a VM on an M1 mac, so not the best test target lol
We just don'th ave any fucking arm machines yet lol
upbeat vale
6 x86, 2 PPC, 1 ARM and 1 custom Chinese ISA in the top 10 currently.
narrow yoke
My biggest hesitation with buying the macbook pro atm is not being able to run windows software I need with in the VM because its on ARM
tough grail
I mean... GPUs don't care about what CPU architecture you have. And under x86 em...
Emulation of completely different architectures is just a temporary solution until the software is native, not a goal. It happened in the PowerPC to X86 transition. It happened in the 68k to PPC transition
hexed sage
Emulation of completely different architectures is just a temporary solution unt...
I mean of course.
Once mainstream ARM processors are released outside of Apple world is when we'll start seeing native builds of software
But all the missing pieces of the past are here now
tough grail
6 x86, 2 PPC, 1 ARM and 1 custom Chinese ISA in the top 10 currently.
Ironically, supercomputer architectures are more diverse than consumer ones 😛
narrow yoke
Once mainstream ARM processors are released outside of Apple world is when we'll...
Does W11 have a translation built in?
hexed sage
Yes
narrow yoke
For macOS arm
hexed sage
What?
upbeat vale
Ironically, supercomputer architectures are more diverse than consumer ones 😛
because they can be custom built for a specific job on an enormous budget
narrow yoke
I.e, if I am on Mac OS and I VM W11, can I still run old x86 apps in the W11 VM?
Does that translation layer work a la rosetta?
hexed sage
I.e, if I am on Mac OS and I VM W11, can I still run old x86 apps in the W11 VM?
You can, but that's irresepctive of it being a Mac
narrow yoke
K
hexed sage
assuming you can get it running, with some config changes it is possible
hexed sage
because rn Windows/Apple are having a licensing fit about it
narrow yoke
Yeah I could care less about that
If it gets my windows account banned, Ill make a new one
lol.
tough grail
Once mainstream ARM processors are released outside of Apple world is when we'll...
I may sound crazy, but the unstable ownership of ARM and not becoming a powerful ISO-ECMA standard joinly worldwide developed and researched migh e a big issue in the future. Despite it's shortcomings, RISC-V might be quite promising in 10-20 years if it becomes the idealistic True Open CPU Architecture
tough grail
ARM started as a very humble architecture! And look now 🙂
upbeat vale
and like all idealistic True Open projects, no one ever puts serious money into it
hexed sage
ARM has the momentum in spite of its ownership/licensing issues. RISC-V is still stuck in lack of momentum and tooling
upbeat vale
and then its just a irrelevant side-note in history
hexed sage
I'm not saying it's possible but nothing is pointing to RISC-V taking over
tough grail
ARM got designed to save transistors at maximum because the company didn't have the resources of big chip corps. Fairchild traitors etc
upbeat vale
Sounds like they are popular.
eager hearth
meh who cares Apple owns their ARM license and can do whatever they want with it
tough grail
I'm not saying it's possible but nothing is pointing to RISC-V taking over
Maybe is RISC-V, maybe it's other. But ARM started as a very humble architecture, slowly entering into the mobile world...
tough grail
meh who cares Apple owns their ARM license and can do whatever they want with it
Can't licenses be revoked or be invalid if the company or the new owners want to?
eager hearth
no carl
narrow yoke
No, that would be part of the argreement
Its similar to how a renter getting a new landlord works
tough grail
Uhm
upbeat vale
ARM started as a desktop architechure, anyway.
narrow yoke
The previous argument is contractually kept between the parties.
eager hearth
Sure they could cut off new versions maybe? but who cares Apple is only Apple and so they can add whatever they need
narrow yoke
The new company may try to revoke, but they would be sued in court
upbeat vale
Also, ARMs product is licenses. Why on earth would they just start telling their customers "no"?
eager hearth
idk how perpetual ARM's license
narrow yoke
and it'd be hilarious to watch
hexed sage
Also, ARMs product is licenses. Why on earth would they just start telling their...
cause money
hexed sage
lol
narrow yoke
lol
upbeat vale
That is a good question
hexed sage
ARM has a lot of IP and talent
narrow yoke
Apple M1 Max
More power for the most demanding workflows
Up to 4x faster graphics performance¹⁰
Over 400GB/s memory bandwidth
Supports four external displays YO WHAT
FOUR EXTERNAL DISPLAYS???
eager hearth
Too bad Nvidia has no talent or ability to make their own cores because of how poor of a company they are
tough grail
Excuse me, but the situation of ARM architecture owners is quite hairy. ARM british vs ARM China...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_Ltd.#Changes_of_ownership
narrow yoke
Youre joking if you think the world will allow ARM to be exclusively owned by China lol
tough grail
Apple M1 Max
More power for the most demanding workflows
Up to 4x faster graphic...
What are the most demanding workloads on an Apple ARM PC?
narrow yoke
What are the most demanding workloads on an Apple ARM PC?
Anything a windows PC does?
I... what? lmao
hexed sage
music, video, photography, and ML/programming stuff @tough grail
trim flare
Mobile was mostly ARM or Motorola, a little x86
I have an x86_64 phone
tough grail
Youre joking if you think the world will allow ARM to be exclusively owned by Ch...
Of course not, but the friction between China and the rest is quite bad for the company
trim flare
god was it shit
hexed sage
those are probably the most common workloads for those kinds of PCs
narrow yoke
Of course not, but the friction between China and the rest is quite bad for the ...
I mean I guess? But it largely doesn't affect the consumer
hexed sage
I mean I guess? But it largely doesn't affect the consumer
geopolitics definitely can affect the consumer and it has in the past
narrow yoke
geopolitics definitely can affect the consumer and it has in the past
Oh of course, but what I mean is that the world isn't going to allow China to own ARM. It aint happening
tough grail
music, video, photography, and ML/programming stuff <@!342905435130691586>
ML is owned by GPGPU segment. Video? Well, Hollywood uses Linux internally. Photography? Maybe yes, but let's see. Music? Maybe yes.
tough grail
I mean I guess? But it largely doesn't affect the consumer
It will, indirectly. That may affect how the architecture evolves
narrow yoke
More than likely, China would close off its own "branch" of arm and develop that in-house without the rest of the world seeing it
hexed sage
ML is owned by GPGPU segment. Video? Well, Hollywood uses Linux internally. Phot...
Yes but in this form factor there's nothing like it
Also there's a ton of places that use Macs for Adobe and their suite
Adobe optimizes for MacOS which is unfortunate
they could perform the same but they just don't and often get updates/features earlier
things like video decoding and import from external media is way faster on Mac because of it
tough grail
Yes but in this form factor there's nothing like it
But ML is only really useful if you can integrate it in other products. Apple is a very walled garden. They might make the iCar, the iPhone, the iSkateboard, the iRobot, the i....
narrow yoke
Man I wanted a 2TB drive, but with the 32 core GPU being an upgrade option, a 2TB drive is gonna be well into the 4K territory D:
hexed sage
But ML is only really useful if you can integrate it in other products. Apple is...
But ML is only really useful if you can integrate it in other products. Apple is a very walled garden.
This is unrelated
You're making a connection where there isn't one
upbeat vale
ML is only useful if you can integrate it in other products
like the billion iPhones currently being used
hexed sage
Yes but the Apple walled garden part is irrelevant
upbeat vale
trim flare
Alright I'm ready to order accessories that are about as much as the 14" macbook pro
narrow yoke
Man of culture, ordering the cleaning cloth
tough grail
> But ML is only really useful if you can integrate it in other products. Apple ...
It's related. Practicality is part of a feature. Who would use it outside Apple? Only Apple and consumer of Apple hardware. So ML in Apple is just for Apple stuff
narrow yoke
Im proud of you
hexed sage
It's related. Practicality is part of a feature. Who would use it outside Apple?...
No.
trim flare
I am ordering apple's value products
hexed sage
You can develop and train ML models that can be used on other machines
What you develop on is irrelevant
upbeat vale
Spoilers: models aren't platform specific.
summer pike
I am ordering apple's value products
Don't forget the custom engraving
tough grail
like the billion iPhones currently being used
Apple. But iSurgery product? Uhm. ML for a device that isn't used by really advanced stuff? An engineer or a scientist isn't going to use Apple products for advanced research, for example
narrow yoke
Why wouldnt they?
upbeat vale
Tell that to all the engineers or scientists who use Apple products.
tough grail
You can develop and train ML models that can be used on other machines
But your ML models need to be improved and optimized for other architecture. And that's why Nvidia has monpoly
trim flare
Don't forget the custom engraving
I don't think you can get any of those products engraved
hexed sage
But your ML models need to be improved and optimized for other architecture. And...
Er, no
narrow yoke
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST LMAo
summer pike
I don't think you can get any of those products engraved
That is truly sad news.
narrow yoke
3080 MOBILE LMAOOOOOO
trim flare
Tell that to all the engineers or scientists who use Apple products.
I bet a lot of pros will come back to apple hardware
hexed sage
@tough grail NVIDIA has a generic tensor accelerator. Any model can be uploaded to it
trim flare
what desktop card compares to a 3080 mobile?
summer pike
Hey Boob, do you have the new Mini?
hexed sage
You just have to translate your model information into the format NVIDIA's cards would understand.
tough grail
Er, no
Are you sure? TensorFlow and such? Despite of that, final implementations even live in custom chips
narrow yoke
what desktop card compares to a 3080 mobile?
I believe its a 2080, aint it?
trim flare
Hey Boob, do you have the new Mini?
no I only have the M1 air
tough grail
You just have to translate your model information into the format NVIDIA's cards...
And everyone uses CUDA and such?
summer pike
Ah.
tough grail
And that's why Radeon has competition issues, because of CUDA and such
trim flare
I would highly recommend the macbook air
narrow yoke
They have competition more than just CUDA 😛
hexed sage
Are you sure? TensorFlow and such? Despite of that, final implementations even l...
And everything is bootstrapped upon bootstraps upon bootstraps. It's very easy to develop on a Mac something that could run on these technologies. Just running it at the highest performance is an issue
trim flare
I've had mine for almost a year
summer pike
I might get new Mini with LTE as streaming device at work
hexed sage
And that's why Radeon has competition issues, because of CUDA and such
Yes cause CUDA is proprietary
trim flare
I might get new Mini with LTE as streaming device at work
how big is your phone?
summer pike
I wanted Air but hard to justify the cost for the small amount I will use
tough grail
And everything is bootstrapped upon bootstraps upon bootstraps. It's very easy t...
But things need to be optimized at final stage at least
trim flare
I think if I needed one ipad in the future, it would probably be the air
narrow yoke
what desktop card compares to a 3080 mobile?
Bro what the fuck. 3080 mobile is on par with a 2080 desktop lmfao
hexed sage
But things need to be optimized at final stage at least
Sure but the actual training and development of the model can be done without knowledge of its final implementation
tough grail
OpenCL can run as fast as NVIDIA's CUDA but nothing supports it
Yes, I agree. And Apple loves proprietary technologies. Look at Metal, for example
summer pike
how big is your phone?
I have 13PM but it's hard to dick around with it at work on a stand connected to my mega dongs for lossless audio
trim flare
https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-mobile-GeForce-RTX-3080-is-40-percent-slower-t...
so that's what 3060?
tough grail
They hate Vulkan, OpenCL etc
eager hearth
Apple made the world fastest mobile GPU
hexed sage
i don't understand their hate for Vulkan
narrow yoke
so that's what 3060?
Actually, a mobile 3080 is even better, once you go above 1080P
tough grail
I understand it. If you don't understand the hate of open standard by Apple, you don't understand Apple at all
eager hearth
trim flare
Actually, a mobile 3080 is even better, once you go above 1080P
it looks closer to 3060ti
just in rough numbers
a 3060ti is about 4x faster than the 1050ti
hexed sage
I understand it. If you don't understand the hate of open standard by Apple, you...
Sure, but they barely put development work into Metal to begin with. It's not like they're actively trying to compete. They just dont want it.
trim flare
21 hour battery life, power of a mid range desktop gpu
hexed sage
I understand it. If you don't understand the hate of open standard by Apple, you...
Apple were the first to embrace HTML5 over Flash, to be fair.
upbeat vale
and Apple pushed for USB-C
trim flare
Haters link shitty $6000 desktop laptop with maybe an hour battery life and 60 hz display
narrow yoke
lol.
tough grail
Apple improving their architecture and making competition in the mobile sector is very good news, but there's too much hype.
upbeat vale
I wonder if they are partially responsible for the fucking mess that is USB now
trim flare
Apple were the first to embrace HTML5 over Flash, to be fair.
was it ipad or phone that killed flash?
eager hearth
Apple love
hexed sage
do you not remember how much people complained about not being able to run sites they wanted to on the iphone
upbeat vale
and flash became optional super fast once the iPhone became popular
trim flare
<@!122487810287468544> https://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-RTX-3060-Ti-...
so it is basically a 3060- 3060ti
trim flare
like the m1 was 1050-1050ti
narrow yoke
But a 3060 Desktop is like a 2070 desktop
narrow yoke
Im not sure actually
trim flare
I never gave a fuck about the 3060, because it was shit compared to the 3060ti
narrow yoke
Actually, you might be right
hexed sage
and Apple pushed for USB-C
and still won't put it on the iphone
oof
I honestly believe we will see a portless iphone before a usb-c iphone
trim flare
because flash *fucking sucked*
remember all the terrible flash websites everywhere in the late 00s
upbeat vale
I don't think Apple see C as an improvment to lightning in the phone.
trim flare
I hate lightning
But I understand that apple probably just wants to apple watch the iphone
and go portless
upbeat vale
I wonder if the Pro phones will get C and the base models will go portless - that would be silly
narrow yoke
So its between a 2070 and 2080
trim flare
<@!122487810287468544> ok here's a better way to see it
TLDW
narrow yoke
Go the time stamp, youll see the info
spice pier
Haters link shitty $6000 desktop laptop with maybe an hour battery life and 60 h...
yeah maxed out on usage an hour bat life, its 96whr, and 4k 60hz, you forgot the 4k part
narrow yoke
But yeah, 3060 Ti is a lot better
trim flare
We're also trying to speculate on apple graphs based on different parts, based on different parts again
so there is a lot of room for error
narrow yoke
Oh yeah absolutely
trim flare
and we have no idea what ACTUAL performance will be like
hexed sage
I wonder if the Pro phones will get C and the base models will go portless - tha...
I still fundamentally disagree with moving to a portless phone. Not for anything with usability, but for efficiency. Suddenly losing 20-60% charging efficiency on tens of millions of devices world wide (that are charged daily, mind you), would be a total step backwards.
trim flare
anandtech did a tiny bit on the m1
narrow yoke
Its just fun to speculate 😉
trim flare
I still fundamentally disagree with moving to a portless phone. Not for anything...
inductive charging is not ideal for sure
narrow yoke
Its basically a 1080 Ti it seems
Or a 2070 Super, it seems
Which I will GLADLY take in a laptop
trim flare
I wonder what thermals will be like
narrow yoke
Sweet jesus.
upbeat vale
yeh, a watt or two wasted as heat the world over really is a efficiency disaster
upbeat vale
That just sounds like concern trolling, tbh.
narrow yoke
Yeah Id imagine the 14 runs warmer
spice pier
Which I will GLADLY take in a laptop
I mean I got a little less than that for $1600 a year ago
hexed sage
yeh, a watt or two wasted as heat the world over really is a efficiency disaster
I mean it's not a watt or two and it adds up quite a bit.
upbeat vale
Of all the other things to be upset about, slightly less efficient charging is so entirely irrelevant
trim flare
like I predict most of the time for light work, the fans will never come on in the pros
hexed sage
And it's not slightly less efficient it's significantly inefficient
narrow yoke
the 14" will probably run hotter than the 16"
Sounds to me like that the 14 and 16 will have similar sort of functions a la air and 13 inch mac book pro.
trim flare
without a case I believe inductive charging is what, maybe 75% efficient @hexed sage ?
my m1 has gotten to 99 C
spice pier
yikes
hexed sage
I've seen numbers closer to 40-60% @trim flare
trim flare
when discord and the browser crashed at the same time
spice pier
my m1 has gotten to 99 C
for 15w the cooling must suck
trim flare
in typical use cases, like video, I think like 75 max
narrow yoke
narrow yoke
I mean looking at that, it's fairly clear that this is targeting a 3070/3080 laptop
hexed sage
@upbeat vale At the current rate of computational power usage, we won't be able to sustain ourselves by i think it was 2050 or so
lime breach
What's the event?
narrow yoke
MSI GE76 Raider
upbeat vale
[citation needed]
hexed sage
Reducing power usage especially at idle or low-use states should be a priority for all devices.
hexed sage
[citation needed]
From the same panel that made the california pc power requirements.
narrow yoke
fuckin lol.
trim flare
Reducing power usage especially at idle or low-use states should be a priority f...
do you know how much power is wasted worldwide on chargers sitting idle
it's a fucking insane amount
narrow yoke
BRUH
hexed sage
it quite is
narrow yoke
Ok seriously
upbeat vale
Again [citation needed]
narrow yoke
In that graph above, Apple is comparing the GPU performance and wattage to the MSI GE76 Raider, which HAS a 3080 in it
trim flare
like the arguement to even a fraction of a watt per user is like saying "10 million people wonder what a single bottle means being thrown on the ground"
it really does add up
narrow yoke
This is INSANE.
upbeat vale
Comparing the future energy usage of computing to, say, the electric car revolution is a little hilarious
trim flare
The thing is every little bit matters
upbeat vale
The world is moving to electric everything, computing is not the straw to break that camels back
especially the loses in wireless phone charging.
trim flare
I mean apple is making pretty efficient devices
hexed sage
The world is moving to electric *everything*, computing is not the straw to brea...
Computing is a gigantic chunk of our global usage, actually.
Bitcoin alone uses enough power as entire countries
and that's a small number of users.
upbeat vale
Indeed.
narrow yoke
Bruh. Imagine having a laptop that uses 60W and competes with an i9 and 3080 laptop
What the actual fuck
spice pier
what did they use to measure performance
narrow yoke
Some shitty and vague graph I linked above
spice pier
also interesting note is that the msi laptop has a much lower resolution screen
narrow yoke
We will need to see what happens, but the graphs in the past have been really good indicators
Whats the resolution listed?
spice pier
1920x1080, IPS, 360HZ, 17.3IN, 3ms g2g
narrow yoke
So you mean to tell me
spice pier
?
narrow yoke
a 3080 at 1080p, is barely winning against native resolution damn near 4k 32core GPU?
What the fuck.
spice pier
they probably took that into account
spice pier
well, it could be userbenchmark level software or 3dmark, we dont know
upbeat vale
Apple tends to be quite representative with its marketting graphs.
narrow yoke
Apple tends to be quite representative with its marketting graphs.
This
upbeat vale
Because they know they get torn apart by nerds anyway.
narrow yoke
They may be vague as fuck
upbeat vale
Not to say they don't cherry pick, but its never completely unreasonable.
narrow yoke
But they usually do well with their graphs
In terms of representing their product I mean
And how it actually performs to the competition
upbeat vale
spice pier
lpddr4x iirc
narrow yoke
Interesting
spice pier
but intel is going to be using ddr5 in a few weeks too
upbeat vale
Yeh, the M1 used LPDDR4
Also the Max has twice the on-die SLC. Wonder what sort of effect that will have
spice pier
" essentially it’s no longer an SoC with an integrated GPU but it’s a GPU with an SoC around it."
interesting take anandtech
narrow yoke
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/17019/2021-10-18 19_22_58.jpg
So in this picture, they are comparing to a lenovo legion 5 82jw0012us, which has a 3050 Ti.
Er sorry thats for the 16 core GPU
hexed sage
" essentially it’s no longer an SoC with an integrated GPU but it’s a GPU with a...
I said that earlier
lol
upbeat vale
So in the hand-waviest 32bit FLops metric, the Max is a desktop 2080 but in a 60w mobile part?
narrow yoke
AMD advertises 26.8bn transistors for the Navi 21 GPU design at 520mm², Apple here has over double the transistors at a lower die size.
narrow yoke
So in the hand-waviest 32bit FLops metric, the Max is a desktop 2080 but in a 60...
According to what has been released, yes
upbeat vale
with about the same memory bandwidth too
narrow yoke
it uses 5nm tsmc afaik
Thats's still amazing.
Thats for 3080 mobile
M1Max 32 Core GPU offers 10.4 TFLOPs compute, 327 GTexels/s and 165 GPixels/s rates.
I am unsure exactly where those numbers are from, but thats the info we have atm on the 32 core
So by all respects, the 32 core should be on-par/better than a mobile 3080 lol.
On paper anyway
upbeat vale
Almost half the maxmium compute of the 3080 Mobile
it ain't going to be better
Mighty fast, but not that fast
narrow yoke
Yeah
Actually yes
thats true
So here's what they compared it to
for the 32 core GPU
And you can see the lines are just a touch below the 3080 there
Im trying to find what wattage that 3080 is at
From there you can just cross reference the two to get an idea of the performance
155 watts according to their 10UH review
upbeat vale
Man that thing is ugly
narrow yoke
upbeat vale
narrow yoke
Our test unit is a higher-end configuration with the Core i7-10870H CPU, 155 W GeForce RTX 3080 GPU, and 300 Hz 1080p display for approximately $2900 USD retail. Lesser SKUs with the Core i7-10750H, 130 W RTX 3060 or 140 W 3070, and 240 Hz or 144 Hz panels are also available.
That is per the 10UH
And the GPU is the same with the 11UH
So yeah, the line is exactly going across the 155W 3080
Also, interesting facet here. If you get a 3080 that uses less than 120 watts or so, you're looking at equal performance.
According to that graph
So yeah, that 32 Core is going to look like a monster compared to the rest lmao.
trim flare
I wish I had the money to buy this
upbeat vale
STS agress with that take https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/status/1450197888286576643
narrow yoke
Good old apple credit card lmao
trim flare
Give it better game support and I don’t need a desktop anymore
narrow yoke
STS agress with that take https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/status/14501978882...
With what take?
OH AGREES
LMAO sorry
I misread. I'm sorry
I thought you said disagrees
narrow yoke
😛
Sorry I had to shut you down there
So yeah, it looks like M1 Max 32 core GPU ~ 50 watts then
With the RTX 3080 mobile they used being at 155W
trim flare
Is it?
narrow yoke
50-60 yeah
narrow yoke
In terms of performance, Apple is battling it out with the very best available in the market, comparing the performance of the M1 Max to that of a mobile GeForce RTX 3080, at 100W less power (60W vs 160W). Apple also includes a 100W TDP variant of the RTX 3080 for comparison, here, outperforming the Nvidia discrete GPU, while still using 40% less power.
upbeat vale
Next important question: how the fuck?
upbeat vale
I can see how they outplayed Intel, but outplaying Intel and nvidia at their specialities
in one product?
narrow yoke
@upbeat vale oh my fucking god lol. The top comment on that anandtech link?
upbeat vale
Yep, I saw it.
trim flare
Are we all simping the MacBooks
narrow yoke
Oh dear lord that's extremely sad to think
Whats amazing is that we still havent even dissected the CPU performance.
OH YEAH
I also just remembered
trim flare
Honestly if you think about the fact that a MacBook Pro replaces a desktop
upbeat vale
We are assuming M1-era power and efficiency cores. So it probably won't be suprising.
narrow yoke
There's new "high powered" mode coming to macOS
trim flare
It’s really cheap
narrow yoke
Honestly if you think about the fact that a MacBook Pro replaces a desktop
Yeah I dont know how I can justify building a new PC now
trim flare
Exactly
upbeat vale
Unless they have thermally uncapped them and can clock them ⏫
narrow yoke
I mean, windows aside of course
trim flare
A a MacBook Air plus desktop is the same as a MacBook Pro
narrow yoke
Like if you need windows for a certain app, thats different
trim flare
And at some point it will get more gaming support
trim flare
I can hope steg
narrow yoke
I think this level of hardware is too good to ignore
We can see what sales are like, but I suspect some devs will start porting depending on what market share looks like
trim flare
The real value is a Mac mini with this
upbeat vale
I'll concede this point when Warzone comes to the Mac
narrow yoke
The biggest issue, imo, is that Apple needs an easy way for users to port over
trim flare
Anand talked about the 2014 MacBook Pro replacing his desktop
trim flare
Look how expensive GPUs are though
narrow yoke
and we are still talking $3000+ devices here
While true, I think even the base 14 inch is still pretty nice
trim flare
The only way to get that performance is a prebuilt
narrow yoke
It is, with the current GPU market yeah
trim flare
You cannot just go and buy a gpu right now
narrow yoke
And who knows how long this will last for
trim flare
The base performance is 1070 level?
narrow yoke
Apple might have even gotten lucky with the timing there, given the price gauging goin gon
upbeat vale
Hmm, will 32GB on the Max be quad channel?
trim flare
12 gpu cores I think
upbeat vale
This is an important question.
narrow yoke
Unironically, I think this could help some of the price gauging issues
for GPUs
Typically is so little overlap between those two
But people may be thinking "well shit if I can get a laptop for the same cost as my desktop and more or less get the same power, might as well! 🤷♂️ "
trim flare
How hard is it to get a laptop with a 3080?
upbeat vale
narrow yoke
According to that 10UH MSI one I linked earlier, apparently hard
narrow yoke
https://twitter.com/jsngr/status/1450199561230749700
Honestly looks fine
Its weird to have the notch in any case
But I dont hate it if Im honest
trim flare
If these could mine at all
upbeat vale
I don't think I hate it
trim flare
People would buy them
upbeat vale
but it is very wierd
trim flare
It’s weird
upbeat vale
That is so much notch just for a single camera
trim flare
It makes sense
narrow yoke
I mean.. like WHY?
trim flare
But it’s huge
upbeat vale
even if its a camera and an ambient light sensor
upbeat vale
because nostril cam isn't appealing
trim flare
I guess so
spice pier
I said that earlier
oh my bad, didnt see that
but yeah, totally gpu > cpu moment
which is something I like
upbeat vale
I might actually have to do some work today
upbeat vale
CE will likely get Monterey into Braveheart's before the end of the year, or shortly after the new year
Translation: we might not get approved to use Monterey until next year.
so ordering a new laptop now is probably a waste
hexed sage
Because they made some awesome laptop CPUs @calm sail
M1 is now up to 16/32 cores, with a stupid powerful iGPU
And the rest of the laptop looks great too, added a bunch of ports (finally), miniled display, adaptive 120hz, 32gb on-die RAM
And 65W total package, 30W for the CPU.
narrow yoke
Why does anyone carw about crapple?
upbeat vale
You could almost call it a big middle finger to Ive-era laptop design
narrow yoke
You could almost call it a big middle finger to Ive-era laptop design
Its all ive ever wanted ❤️
Just got my apple credit card to pay for the 16 inch XD
calm sail
And 65W total package, 30W for the CPU.
who wants to be stuck emulating real programs all the time though?
narrow yoke
who wants to be stuck emulating real programs all the time though?
To be fair, when the performance is so close to native, I doubt many would care
hexed sage
who wants to be stuck emulating real programs all the time though?
most apps that people use on Apple are native now
And they have hardware x86 translation which is a huge plus to translated performance
narrow yoke
But also, things will get ported over
calm sail
most apps that people use on Apple are native now
why not just use an ipad then?
hexed sage
i think it's within 5% at the best 15% at the worst
hexed sage
why not just use an ipad then?
are you trolling
calm sail
To be fair, when the performance is so close to native, I doubt many would care
it's not just performance it's the stability and bug fixing issues that come with emulation
narrow yoke
why not just use an ipad then?
And that's where I'm out
calm sail
are you trolling
you can get a keyboard for you ipad
hexed sage
it's not just performance it's the stability and bug fixing issues that come wit...
haven't heard any issues of this sort
hexed sage
you can get a keyboard for you ipad
ok yeah you're trolling
narrow yoke
ok yeah you're trolling
Tbh, he probs isn't, but this is uh. wow
narrow yoke
Interesting
I'd imagine that companies will likely do more and more native stuff as times go on
hexed sage
https://www.techgamingreport.com/apple-silicon-does-steam-crash-games-on-rosetta...
this article doesn't even answer the question
it says nothing about issues as far as i can tell
just says when optimized games may come out and how to run them
calm sail
just says when optimized games may come out and how to run them
there were massive issues early on where it'd just crash loop
narrow yoke
Damn the shipping dates are already well into November
Yikes
Might just wait for some stock at my local best buy or something
tender shard
you see the M1 Pro now has 200GB/s memory bandwidth to feed them there 16 GPU cores? and the M1 Max is rocking a 512 bit wide memory bus.... in a god damn laptop!?
narrow yoke
We did indeed 😉 haha
pallid veldt
Not as fast as a regular GPU. Where you're expencting 500GB/s+
tender shard
a 3070 is 450GB/s....
and the difference in transistor count from M1 Pro to M1 Max is 23.3 billion transistors....so thats 23.3 billion transistors in 16 more GPU cores, 256 more bits of memory bandwidth, and a couple extra encode/decode units and some other random little stuff....
3080/3080Ti/3090/A6000 die is 28.3 billion. 3070 die is 17.4 billion. so the difference between an M1 Pro and M1 Max is somewhere between a 3070 and 3080 in transistors....
pallid veldt
I care less about the GPU here, until TVM supports metal/CoreML its pointless to me
astral crystal
https://www.techgamingreport.com/apple-silicon-does-steam-crash-games-on-rosetta...
pallid veldt
but I am keen to know how the CPU scales power wise
calm sail
yeah...
pallid veldt
The M1 was comparable with a 5700u at load
tender shard
@pallid veldt you doing machine learning?
tender shard
ahhh
My other question was..... how much difference all that memory bandwidth will make for some database workloads.
pallid veldt
Not sure it'd matter that much, having all of that cache will be nice though
Problem is, these are awful for databases because their IO is ass. Unless its timeseries, its just not useful
Even then, the software side of things makes that a non starter
narrow yoke
I waited too long to get my order in
spice pier
yeah me too
narrow yoke
At this point, Ill just wait until stores have em
spice pier
except im still waiting
narrow yoke
What do you mean?
spice pier
waiting for benchmarks
narrow yoke
Ah
Yeah at this point I'm going to do the same
Since the shipping times are so long
Now its gonna be painful waiting the week for benchmarks to come out 😛
Im honestly shocked we dont have any sort of benchmarks or ANYTHNG right now aside from Apples own stuff
There's usually something
upbeat vale
review units will probably arrive tomorrow
so expect results to start leaking out soon
narrow yoke
I hope so
I cant wait a week for reviews 😛
@upbeat vale Whos your go to for reviews?
upbeat vale
I'll read lots. I don't care too much for the medicore tech press.
Either give me Anandtech or give me more mainstream - Ars, The Verge, etc.
I'll read Joanna Stern as soon as she publishes
ditto John Gruber
narrow yoke
Im excited lol
I wonder what Linus and Dave2D are going to say about the new MBP's lmao
upbeat vale
yeh, see they go in the "medicore tech press" category
and IDGAF what they have to say
narrow yoke
God Linus used to be good
upbeat vale
No
upbeat vale
Non-technical isn't necessarily a critism
Joanna Stern doesn't write technical reviews
but they are some of the best reviews out there
upbeat vale
Vapid
upbeat vale
Yeh, I agree
narrow yoke
There's nothing of substance covered in the review
I dont need you tell me that the laptop has 400Gb/s bandwidth or whatever
But I also dont need you tell me that the particular color of blue they are using looks good
upbeat vale
I think that sort of person is so scared by the internet into being "objective"
and become bland as a result
narrow yoke
But its what Dave2D does
Like
"The panel looks fine and is mostly color accurate." is probably his most uttered sentence lmao
If everything looks fine, how am I supposed to know from your review which is better than the other?
We have tools to measure these things and you don't need to be super tech literate to understand them
upbeat vale
Yes and no. "Its fine" is a perfectly good review conclusion.
Like, if its 2% less accurate than some other model is that actually useful information for most users?
and if you are a colourist who cares deeply about that you aren't reading a medicore tech youtubers opinions for your buying advice
narrow yoke
Its not so much that i need the best panel
narrow yoke
Its that I also dont want to buy a shitty color'd panel when the reviewer just says "its fine."
I need more context than that
You dont buy a product based off of "its fine."
lol
Well, not expensive ones anyway
I mean sure, for some of the sub 700$ laptops he reviews, fine, whatever. I just wish he was a bit more details and provided more context to how he formed his opinions
upbeat vale
Yeh
narrow yoke
But man I am really excited to see how this chip works. Guesses on geekbench score for multicore?
upbeat vale
Lots.
narrow yoke
Heaps even?
narrow yoke
Do you think youre gonna love it?
upbeat vale
Still don't know how I am going to acquire one yet
narrow yoke
As in money?
upbeat vale
I got an out-of-cycle upgrade to the M1 13"
static latch
But man I am really excited to see how this chip works. Guesses on geekbench sco...
Someone already posted one.. like... 11k or somethin?
upbeat vale
Might be a challenge to also justify a 14"
narrow yoke
Someone already posted one.. like... 11k or somethin?
Wait wot? can you find that please?
static latch
narrow yoke
Also, how good is 11k?
upbeat vale
I could just buy myself one, then I can use a proper UK keyboard not the stupid US one
static latch
(Me having paid attention about 5% of the time)
narrow yoke
Im not aware they have hyper threading
upbeat vale
11k is around 12 cores Xeons
narrow yoke
Mac Pro (Late 2019)
Intel Xeon W-3235 @ 3.3 GHz (12 cores)
11876
lol.
In a laptop
what a time to be alive...
upbeat vale
There we go
narrow yoke
Yeah its also one result
static latch
Will be interesting see how the thermals do..
narrow yoke
But my lord this is some wild performance
i think the thermals will be a lot better than the old intel ones
Given the beefier chasis and better fans + no dedicated GPU
upbeat vale
The M1 13" is actually astonishing
narrow yoke
Id be hard pressed to think itll be bad
static latch
passive is neat
upbeat vale
coming from the Intel laptops the thermals are really amazing
so these Pro models should be similar
🤞
static latch
I haven't own a laptop with an aluminum/metal chassis, but you really notice it with this framework
hexed sage
How so? What's the difference
upbeat vale
oh yeh, sweaty palms
narrow yoke
Yeah
static latch
all the laptops I've had were plastic, so the heat transfer wasn't the same
narrow yoke
The metal on your hands
static latch
Sweaty palm rests, mostly
narrow yoke
Its annoying lmao
static latch
First glass trackpad for me, it's godlike
static latch
well, not the event, just the product
hexed sage
Yeah that's kinda my point
hexed sage
After seeing just how many improvements are coming to the Apple ecosystem so rapidly
Looking at Google i feel completely lackluster and left behind
static latch
Seems like it
hexed sage
Even the fucking Windows ecosystem is more cohesive than Google's.
narrow yoke
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X
3.8 GHz (12 cores)
11730
Remember when this was the best desktop CPU you could buy for productivity? lol
Reasonably, that is
hexed sage
I have easy integration with Office 365, AD, multiple work accounts, email+calendar services, settings syncing, Your Phone, etc
spice pier
Remember when this was the best desktop CPU you could buy for productivity? lol
TR 2000s were out
narrow yoke
TR 2000s were out
They were also like double/triple the price
spice pier
they were best for productivity yeah
static latch
This in no way competes with TR
narrow yoke
Right
hexed sage
Google's "ecosystem" doesn't mean shit when they keep shutting down products every month and spawning new inferior ones every two
spice pier
TR 5000 when
spice pier
Google's "ecosystem" doesn't mean shit when they keep shutting down products eve...
rip google glasses
narrow yoke
Yeeeeeaahhhh
This is already beating out desktop CPU's
Like, this score beats out intels top of the line consumer CPU
Intel has left the chat.
static latch
It's also a rapidly changing environment
hexed sage
Remember a lot of that is probably from the on-die memory which can easily cause synthetic benchmarks to have inflated scores
narrow yoke
Excuse me while a 30W CPU beats a 220W desktop processor KEKW
Oh yeah of course
I'm meme'ing here
I just find it really amusing is all
static latch
Like, I went from a 6600u to a 1165g7, I was blown away that I could just double my per core and multicore
(roughly)
narrow yoke
Yeah its crazy how much AMD and Apple have been changing the CPU/GPU space
static latch
I couldn't really care for desktop alderlake thou, mobile alderlake is where it's at
Energy efficiency #1
narrow yoke
Do you think alderlake will be able to compete with that though?
With what apple just announced?
narrow yoke
Uhhhhh
static latch
fuck
narrow yoke
Thats a desktop chip
static latch
I google hk
static latch
fuck you google
narrow yoke
Hahahahhaa
But stlll
thats the desktop version barely beating the laptop version though
Or was that not alder lake?
west compass
So who wants to finance my macbook, cries in empty wallet
static latch
So who wants to finance my macbook, *cries in empty wallet*
Get a regular m1 macbook
ez
narrow yoke
Ah
trim flare
I would argue intel had decent integrated graphics
They improved them for a lot of the MacBooks
upbeat vale
Apple really bullied them with CrystalLake
trim flare
Wasn’t it a custom chip?
upbeat vale
It turned up in a very small number of PC laptops
and the original NUC I think
but yes, it was an Apple-specified design
trim flare
Now we have the hardware
We just need the software
It will be interesting to see what other companies can make for internal cpus
static latch
I would argue intel had decent integrated graphics
XE has really surprised me
trim flare
I would think that with the amount of ram it had dualbooting windows should be an option
But maybe the new way to do other machines is via azure
trim flare
XE has really surprised me
What is that
trim flare
I have not seen benchmarks
When intel made sandy bridge they vastly improved the igpu
Anand talked about it quite a bit
static latch
I played a bit of satisfactory on it, was quite surprised it was even playable
trim flare
I liked the 8250u in the laptop I had
Until I used my a12x iPad Pro
Then it didn’t seem too impressive
It’s pretty insane what the m1 can do
It’s basically gaming laptop level performance from just a few years ago
And then you have the m1 pro and max
I wonder what 5nm amd will look like
And smaller Samsung
narrow yoke
Apple really bullied them with CrystalLake
Which gen was this?
narrow yoke
I wonder what 5nm amd will look like
I'm honestly extremely excited to see whatll be like with the A15 cores. Jesus dude. The 32 core GPU is gonna be ACTUALLY a 3070 desktop or something lmfao
static latch
I'm honestly extremely excited to see whatll be like with the A15 cores. Jesus d...
a melting chassis issue, that would be a good one
narrow yoke
a melting chassis issue, that would be a good one
Not if the power consumption is low 😉
Also, that would require like what, 1000C or something?
Aluminium/Melting point
1,221°F
660.3°C
Ok so 660C, but still
lol
static latch
maybe
narrow yoke
😮 POG
trim flare
I'm honestly extremely excited to see whatll be like with the A15 cores. Jesus d...
Which doesn’t even make the price crazy
narrow yoke
Which doesn’t even make the price crazy
Yeah hahahha
Thats actually a deal at that point
trim flare
I wonder what future gpu prices will look like
robust bay
Oh! I don't need the extra power. I wanted the other features and hoped for some longest battery life with less numbers of efficient cores, but that didn't happen. And given the massive price increase, it would be a waste. so I'll wait another year for this one to refresh
I'm not a fan of the design either. I think the one I have looks way better... and that notch :<
narrow yoke
Im not a huge fan of the design either
But the notch really doesnt bother me as much as I thought it would
static latch
Oh yeah, i didn't look at the spec, is it 3:2 aspect ratio?
upbeat vale
Which gen was this?
Skylake I think
narrow yoke
Otherwise its a really funky aspect ratio
narrow yoke
Skylake I think
Er thats 6th right?
upbeat vale
Yep
narrow yoke
Interesting
never had a mac then
You cannot use nm measurement across manufacturers, as they don't agree on what to measure
This is incorrect right?
As in, the measurement is fine
But that's not the point of the measurement
As in, just because its lower nm doesnt mean its inherently better
narrow yoke
There was no context applied to the quote
upbeat vale
The nanometer number quoted on silicon manufacturing processes is a name
Not a measurement
Which is why neither Intel nor TMSC actually name their processes after a number of manometers anymore
“Intel 4” used to be the “7nm” Intel process.
The numbers don’t mean anything
upbeat vale
Look at the table on this page https://www.anandtech.com/show/11859/the-anandtech-coffee-lake-review-8700k-and-8400-initial-numbers/2
The 14nm in 14nm++ doesn’t actually refer to any significant feature
narrow yoke
So it’s not a measurement of transistor size any more?
narrow yoke
Interesting
elder tundra
🍎
trim flare
The 14nm in 14nm++ doesn’t actually refer to any significant feature
Yeah the nm in most processes really doesn't tell you a lot
it's so complicated it's difficult to say what exactly it means
frozen burrow
apple moment
upbeat vale
pretty tasty
astral dew
pretty tasty
lime kayak
obsidian sun
Lol
tight hearth
Goes to show you don’t need to suck out 600w out of the wall for video games
spice pier
*assuming games will run
ftfy
though I am now very interested in doing a hackintosh build
manic sedge
what now the software wont support intel hardware.
hexed sage
what now the software wont support intel hardware.
Qualcomm processor 
trim flare
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-s-M1-Max-GPU-is-as-powerful-as-an-Nvidia-RTX...
I've seen a few speculative estimates without any data that believe the m1 max is 3x faster than the m1 not 4x
But the only thing that will show the results is testing when these machines arrive to those people