#Suggestion 55 discussion

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

analog pilotBOT
radiant comet
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@glad prairie I'm sorry. I have no clue what you're explaining here. Can you try explaining it another way?

glad prairie
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when we set up double elimination for 8 or more players, ideally i want a stronger preference for the loser of pair 1 to match with the loser of pair 3 or 4

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what i've noticed is the loser of pair 1 always pairs up with the loser of pair 2 for 8+ player brackets

radiant comet
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We're talking about seeding right?

glad prairie
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yes for seeding, when we set up the initial pairings based on seedings that's fine, it's what happens afterwards that is the problem

radiant comet
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You can't control what happens after though

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elimination brackets always have a pre-determined finals

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the math behind seeding splits 1 and 2 far from each other so they don't ride the same side of the bracket together

glad prairie
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yes you can't control who wins/loses but surely you can put a stronger preference to not pair losers from pairs 1 and 2 into the losers bracket all the time

radiant comet
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Gotchya, so we're talking about the first matches after assigning seeds

glad prairie
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yes first matches after assigning the seeds

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more like the second match played

radiant comet
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I can show you some examples of how traditional seeding works hang tight

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hit spectate when I publish

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well i suppose you don't need to haha

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It's easy to explain in a 8 person bracket. anyway here I go

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sec

glad prairie
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ok that makes sense for single elimination

radiant comet
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oh, so the issue you're pointing to is only in double?

glad prairie
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yep it's an issue with the double elimination, so using the example bracket i'm seeing losers of pairs 1 and 2 matching up

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it's mainly an issue with larger brackets because i get that there's only so much variance in say 4 person bracket

radiant comet
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Just so we have a baseline for the conversation, single and double are the same with respect to the winners bracket

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the math behind seeding is also exactly the same and industry standard. Are we talking uneven brackets?

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that's when things can get a tiny bit confusing for organizers

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I added 2 more players, this event is 10

glad prairie
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so we have nice even bracket numbers for the most part because i agree that odd numbers can be messy

radiant comet
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It's actually pretty clean if you've seeded appropriately with uneven events. It just looks funky

glad prairie
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so 8 16 32 etc

radiant comet
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the worst players duke it out

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best players get byes

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8,9 and 10,11 are the highest seeds

glad prairie
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now that i see the seeding for 8-player single elim i guess the only way to mix is to randomise the initial seeding?

radiant comet
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If you don't know the skill levels, yeah

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see how 1 and 2, 3 and 4 are apart from eachother?

glad prairie
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i'll need to have a look at the challonge brackets we held before hand

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before we used the bot for 8-man brackets

radiant comet
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It's going to be exactly the same

glad prairie
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ok i will see what the other guys say about randomising seeding

radiant comet
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If you know 2 players are really really really good. You'll want to give them 1st and 2nd seed and let the bracket do it's thing

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if those players are on the top half of the bracket

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it ruins the integrity of the event

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and you're going to have an aweful finals

glad prairie
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ok that's understandable for single elimination

radiant comet
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It holds true with double too

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you throw one of the best players into the losers

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quickly rather them staying in winners the whole event

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makes for a bad experience for the underdogs trying to comeback

glad prairie
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it's the eventuality of someone really good dropping into losers bracket for whatever reason that we want to be accounting for

radiant comet
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yeah correct

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the integrity thing is simply this.

If you send the second best player to the losers bracket too soon, they will stomp all the competition down there, essentially destroying the natural matchups of lesser skilled players

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it actually makes it very easy for that team to win the whole event actually lol

glad prairie
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i guess the tournaments we hold are currently too small to see this sort of thing pan out

radiant comet
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it happens on a micro scale for sure

glad prairie
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because logically i'd expect at least an even chance of facing one out of 3 of the losers in 8-man bracket

radiant comet
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its just better for everyone if you know the skill level of the competitors

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and give them seeds accordingly

glad prairie
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rather than having pairs 1 and 2 always linked if that makes sense

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we already assign the seeding for player strengths

radiant comet
glad prairie
radiant comet
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The nature of the bracket is to eliminate people and divvy out skill as best as possible, but that doesn't always happen

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skill is the wild card

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so I guess to summarize... elimination brackets are all based on assumptions

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the biggest assumption is that 1 and 2 are going to meet in the finals

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and then you can kinda see the assumptions for semis in this example

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One thing is for certain, if anyone argues with you about how brackets work, you gunna come at them with hard info now rofl

glad prairie
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So it's the second round of losers bracket that is the issue here because I wouldn't expect pair 1 to face each other in losers bracket

image0.jpg
radiant comet
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I think I understand. Let me check it out when I get on for the day and we’ll fix it

radiant comet
radiant comet
stuck vector
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@radiant comet sorry to jump in... But @glad prairie asking is the simple shift of the second round... Yeah the image explained bit faster than text...

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And i know how our bot works like traditional way... You guys can check that and hope we are not in hurry

radiant comet
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Can you stop pinging? Lol

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I’m okay if it’s an emergency but, I just asked you to not do that 😐