sk-discussion

[graceful oyster]

It's certainly a classic

[inland sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-licking-popsicle-gif-3122588929262013745

[versed pollen]

Apex Legends and Titanfall take place in the same universe????

[fringe jungle]

true! that's another good example of friction between gameplay and story working to the game's benefit

[clear fulcrum]

ITS PACED WELL!! the dialogue doesnt stop the gameplay, typically it shows up on the bottom. You can build a flow.

[fiery burrow]

dude I forgot about that

Yeah it is

[vivid belfry]

IT PREVENTS YOU FROM MOVING

[wind mulch]

somehow, ash returned

[fiery burrow]

Larp larp larp sahur

[vivid belfry]

IT'S MOSTLY CUTSCENES

[clear fulcrum]

But wouldn't you still agree that the dialogue ruins the pacing of the beginning? I mean that's the first impression of any video game.

[fiery burrow]

well I haven't played ch3&4 maybe I'm the larper

but 1 and 2 are definitely storyslop

[versed pollen]

You are definitely the larper

[opaque sigil]

tbf there's some sorta cloning shit going on with pilots

[tender grove]

Reminder that Hornet canonically sucks:

Where do you hide this boundless strength you claim, spider? I've watched your struggle towards us. Yours was a painful, broken trek

[opaque sigil]

idk what the fuck regenerating is supposed to be

[clear fulcrum]

only sometimes! and it's between fights and such. The dialogue during fights is incorporated well into the menu, and sometimes your characters have dialogue between moves.

[tender grove]

Hornet sucks at her own game 😂

[wind mulch]

oh there is? idk titanfall lore at all

[woeful skiff]

femboy ralsei

[old compass]

are we really criticizing nine sols opening for 40 minutes are we serious 💔

[wind mulch]

i thought they were essentially just really skilled soldiers

[inland sparrow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1393441943635099691/1495959143016829001/ezgif-864dee4d58660d2e.gif

[woeful skiff]

bruv wat is ts

[atomic sparrow]

not nearly long enough

[versed pollen]

This makes it better and I also don't know anything about to lore. So this it is

[outer cliff]

You’re still dismissing the dialogue because of being pointless? Not all dialogue needs to have a point, it can just be to entertain or expand the setting. Now if you can argue thát was done badly, I might understand your point more

[real leaf]

something interesting going on whatever it is

[fiery burrow]

this how long it felt though on god

[opaque sigil]

I don't know either

[atomic sparrow]

hey....... this is REALLY disturbing............. don't post this.............

[woeful skiff]

i need Nine Sols rn it looks so good :D

[exotic cedar]

Is this real???

[clear fulcrum]

Oh also Deltarune's dialogue IS the game. Most of the fights revolve around talking to the enemies. Most of the gameplay is DIALOGUE. If we wanted to count the actual gameplay, which is the soul sections, they don't interrupt that at ALL.

[fringe jungle]

Not really to be honest, although that might just be a me thing, as in general I'm fine with the beginning of most media being much slower paced than the rest, especially since most of the time its slower because it needs to set the stage before it starts to ramp up. Nine sols is no exception to that, which is why I personally don't mind the start feeling slower compared to the rest of the game's pacing

[inland sparrow]

Uh okay?

[inland sparrow]

Yes trust

[atomic sparrow]

do not slander mr beast like this..........

[fiery burrow]

are u thinking about undertale cuz iirc deltarune acting is more or less minigames

[real leaf]

Are you.. serious....

[fiery burrow]

which is a great change cuz undertale acting was kinda eh

[exotic cedar]

I actually can't believe mr beazt did that

[inland sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/howyy-gif-14677769772756874928

[clear fulcrum]

I just argued that it was done poorly. Pointless dialogue that only reiterates what was already shown is always criticized throughout every form of media.

[old compass]

no ai generated conten-

[outer cliff]

Guys this bullet hell is disrupting my dialogueslop!! 0/10 should have had a story mode

[clear fulcrum]

Sure, but at that point why even let us have any gameplay in the beginning? What is the purpose us walking around for 30 seconds without any form of choice?

[severe steeple]

I will vibe code a game thats better than all games mentioned in this chat

[clear fulcrum]

That's not what I said at all..

[outer cliff]

Vibes

[exotic cedar]

If a dialouge doesn't make sense when you read it the first time it will make sense after

[versed pollen]

All AI code is better than human code so never code again methinks

[wind mulch]

if a game has more than 15 words consecutively they should just write a novel instead to be frank

[fiery burrow]

post the THK code image

[severe steeple]

All Ai is nicer than humans so never talk to humans again

[clear fulcrum]

the vibes being a poorly thought out tutorial?

[harsh yarrow]

@fiery burrow @opaque sigil ;3

[fiery burrow]

hyper light drifter my goat

[clear fulcrum]

why is this discord so obsessed with hyperbolizing points to make thim seem silly

[fringe jungle]

The gameplay at the start exists as the tutorial on how to literally play the gameplay sections. Its part of the setup for the rest of the game, even if there's more dialogue and cutscenes compared to gameplay during the beginning section

[outer cliff]

I know I was just saying that calling Deltarune gameplay non-disruptive is untrue, you may just like the gameplay more so it forcing bother you

[fiery burrow]

ain't that just normal rhetoric

[barren nacelle]

it would be cool if someone got me silksong type sho

[orchid spruce]

is hyper light drifter actually good, i've heard mixed things

[clear fulcrum]

The tutorial is so bad that they give you another one if you die. How do you defend that?

[inland sparrow]

Seeing something silksong related in the silksong channel?!

[real leaf]

https://tenor.com/view/a-true-skonger-hornet-silksong-silkpost-animal-instinct-gif-2410519712820608891

[wind mulch]

i hyperbolise everything because im pretentious

[old compass]

because discord isn't a place for serious it's in the name, discord

[atomic sparrow]

can I be added to the exclusive club that is the pinged 🤔

[wind mulch]

im not involved in this argument

[harsh yarrow]

Shore

[versed pollen]

Hold on I'm feeling like being slow rn

[fiery burrow]

this is so cool

[barren nacelle]

it would be cool if someone got me silksong type shi

[atomic sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/allmight-bnha-mha-meme-fist-up-gif-13588517052470008833

[real leaf]

im involved in this chat

[clear fulcrum]

No? It's just paced way better. And a majority of deltarune's gameplay is making your choices THROUGH the story.

[harsh yarrow]

@atomic sparrow (I'll ping you going forwards)

[atomic sparrow]

yay!

[outer cliff]

It’s fine, but I dropped it after getting bored after a while.

[opaque sigil]

I didn't notice what's different, just the beast shards?

[fiery burrow]

I wonder why they scrapped the OG moss mother theme it had whimsy

[harsh yarrow]

Mostly

[barren nacelle]

it would be cool if someone got me silksong type shi

[harsh yarrow]

Also increased her health back to 160, which was what it was in the demo

[orchid spruce]

you're so silly. the tutorial is short to let you start gameplay right away and not drag the early pacing more. and if you still don't understand the totally understandable tutorial, they'll give you a slower tutorial to practice

[sharp slate]

i would appreciate it if you would get me silksong

[harsh yarrow]

...and fixed the Moss grub blood color

[orchid spruce]

[clear fulcrum]

Would've made pinstress stand out more (they share the same theme right)

[opaque sigil]

certainly a good change to make her drop shards though a bit funny when you can't actually use them yet

[fiery burrow]

yeah pinstress even sings it in her needolin dialogue

[harsh yarrow]

I reported it as a bug to TC though

[barren nacelle]

i dont have it🥺

[severe steeple]

Id say no beast shard but instead a couple more big shards

[orchid spruce]

enuf gaming

[fringe jungle]

this is probably gonna sound like shit, but I don't remember there being a "second" tutorial, and so if there was I didn't die during the first 30 minutes to see it

[fiery burrow]

which one of these is responsible for the triple slash having no telegraph

[orchid spruce]

gudbye gamers

[barren nacelle]

it would be cool if someone got me silksong

[atomic sparrow]

doesn't the other enemies in moss grotto drop shards though

[clear fulcrum]

That's like revving your engines in neutral so that you can have the illusion of driving without actually ever moving. Btw they don't even tell you about the parry until your first level.

[versed pollen]

I'm not sure the FSM is responsible in of itself. It would be the code represented by one of the blocks....

[opaque sigil]

yeah but like a full item pickup

[harsh yarrow]

They do

Its added because it was cool

+cut content from the Weavenest Moss Mothers

[versed pollen]

Well one of those blocks is probably labelled "triple slash" or something similar so that one

[sharp slate]

no ones gonna buy you it hear, stop spamming that please, no one on discord in general probably will

[fiery burrow]

SS bosses should drop shards on stagger for the sole purpose of being really metal

[harsh yarrow]

XD

[orchid spruce]

so true

[opaque sigil]

and more bosses should just drop anything

[severe steeple]

but it would be cool

[harsh yarrow]

thats a bit much imo, this one is chill

[clear fulcrum]

Yeah, they give you a second tutorial when you die that actually teaches the main mechanics and lets you practice them. Would've been much more effective to actually be able to do that BEFORE the first area.

[fiery burrow]

lets not get too crazy

[barren nacelle]

not spamming cant even have whimsy now a days

[harsh yarrow]

Ye, we're planning on doing that

Outside of least 3 known cases
if a boss already drops something- we wont change it

[opaque sigil]

well the appeal to that system is it lets you use tools more sustainably across attempts

[sharp slate]

rosaries and get rid of shell shards 😭

[wind mulch]

i am shell shards number one hater

scrap the whole system

[fiery burrow]

I hate them more buddy

[versed pollen]

You know this reminded me that it feels kind of strange that you can walk over and pick up some items in Silksong but you need to interact to pick up some of them. I could never really make the distinction between the two

[sharp slate]

agreed

[severe steeple]

most drop the next area to you which is fine, I wouldnt be against some shard or rosaries though

[wind mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/nuke-the-whole-generation-generation-nuke-funny-gif-6559866131259948476

[barren nacelle]

https://tenor.com/view/loveandlighttv-yes-king-skley-skley69-skleyyt-gif-12184093731854926248

[clear fulcrum]

you'd have to nerf red tools into oblivion tho

[wind mulch]

nah

[harsh yarrow]

Like, Fourth Chorus gives a Silkheart, Bell Beast gives you fast travel, Second Sentinel gives you the Reserve Bind

[opaque sigil]

in any case a less obtrusive solution to shards could just be refunding tools for free when you die

[clear fulcrum]

yeah?

[fiery burrow]

I think its quest items that are automatic

[atomic sparrow]

yo can I help out on the mod I can draw very goodly

[wind mulch]

just have them replenish at benches and keep everything else the same

[fiery burrow]

and maybe beast shards?

[barren nacelle]

https://tenor.com/view/loveandlighttv-yes-king-skley-skley69-skleyyt-gif-12184093731854926248

[sharp slate]

damn i would kill myself so often

[versed pollen]

I just remember there being a few random items that you need to interact with

[severe steeple]

what creates silk hearts though and why does bell beast have it

[wind mulch]

there isnt anything stopping you from just farming starting enemies every time u run out its just unnecessary inconvenience

[fiery burrow]

this reminds me MIO visually distinguishes between currency pickups and actual items so you don't get disappointed

[clear fulcrum]

shell shards only exist to balance the incredibly broken tools?

[fringe jungle]

nah I think the red tools would def need some further fine tuning if we were to get rid of shards

[stark estuary]

Shell shards and red tools are both bad

[flint geyser]

question for an essay im writing for my class guys, who did the writing for silksong? story writing and dialogue and stuff. was it ari or william?

[harsh yarrow]

Part of the tool balancing is that they consume shards

[clear fulcrum]

but that's still the point? TC sees time as the opportunity cost for using tools. You're allowed to be overpowered, but then you'll have to grind some more.

[opaque sigil]

shell shards just aren't a good limitation on red tools and red tools already have a built in limitation

[versed pollen]

It is both of them

[vivid belfry]

bell beast has a silk heart because it was being restrained by a concentrated cluster of it

[fiery burrow]

red tools are fun stfu

[wind mulch]

they dont do anything in the way of balancing because everyone and tbeir mother drops them

[flint geyser]

okok thank u

[sharp slate]

do they? arent minor spoilers ||coatings, modifiers, and condensed nacre all look same on ground||

[outer cliff]

Shouldn’t we get rid of blood vials too now that we’re on some steam

[old compass]

what could the subject possibly be for you to think writing about skong is a good idea

[fiery burrow]

the last one is distinct I believe

[fringe jungle]

the point of shards is to discourage careless useage of red tools, which in turn means said tools are really strong when you do decide to use them

[wind mulch]

the only limiting factor is that going somewhere with weaker enemies to replenish them everytime is fucking annoying

[clear fulcrum]

like barely lol? Especially when you have more tool pouches, you'll be consuming crazy amounts by that point. Using rosaries to buy them is much more effective

[sharp slate]

gonna double check real quick on map genie

[stark estuary]

Sit down the grown ups are talking, we don’t care about things like “fun” when discussing game balance choices

[severe steeple]

maybe if red tools were on a cooldown like you can charge up to 5 straight pins and it takes 3 seconds to recharge a straight pin, numbers would be different for every tool. But then you would still be encouraged to spam them out as soon as you get them

[wind mulch]

its a limitation on fun if anything

[eternal berry]

steel soul:

[flint geyser]

analysis. religion and capitalism. lots to talk about for silksong lol. it'll be my second essay on it actually

[harsh yarrow]

Its likely all three

[fiery burrow]

I think coatings should have a distinct sprite for presentations sake

[opaque sigil]

in steel soul shell shards aren't an issue in no small part for precisely the reason that you can't die and waste a bunch

[clear fulcrum]

Besides it's not really fun to disregard the enemy design from range

[harsh yarrow]

Steel Soul my beloved

[old compass]

no please analyize a religion in real life with real capitalism statistics 💔

[fiery burrow]

Cuz like in HK you hear the mask shards and you see them and its like "Oh man I need to get that" and its really satisfying whereas in MIO its more like a "Oh ig that's cool" feeling ykwim

[clear fulcrum]

doesn't this discourage actual thought tho

[stark estuary]

Yeah red tools are horribly balanced lol
Shell shards are also a poorly thought out system though

[atomic sparrow]

speaking of the mask shards they removed the jingle when you collect 4 and then it goes to your hud 💔

[fiery burrow]

WHAT

[stark estuary]

I just chose not to use red tools in my first playthrough

[opaque sigil]

why

[wind mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/ddp-dricus-du-plessis-ufc-du-plessis-ufc-305-gif-596881121769945419

[atomic sparrow]

in silksong I mean

[clear fulcrum]

ngl mask shards are only satisfying when you get the final one to actually get a mask

[fiery burrow]

oh

[severe steeple]

yeah thats my concern. People would kinda just use them all the time then but maybe a system similar to it

[fringe jungle]

I'm one of three people who disagrees with the notion of shards being bad design, and the main reason why is they encourage you to think about how you use your red tools

[old compass]

[atomic sparrow]

because tc hates whimsy

[sharp slate]

you are correct never noticed tbh

[wind mulch]

there isnt anything stopping you from using them all the time apart from 5 minutes of inconvenience is the problem

[fiery burrow]

SS too serious for whimsy its like a dark and gritty fantasy world they needed to lock in

[atomic sparrow]

Do I almost feel fear?

🥶

[wind mulch]

why even have that limitation at all

[sharp slate]

animation for shards and spools/vessels is so satisfying

[versed pollen]

That is pretty whimsical I can't lie

[old compass]

if another journal entry discussion happens again I will crucify you as promised andy

[clear fulcrum]

The problem is that Red Tools are mostly all ranged, and they aren't particularly hard to use due to them being made for worse players. Stuff like delvers drill would still be skilled, even in a no shards enviornment. Most red tools are just very poorly made which leads to them either being pointless when bad, or broken when good.

[graceful oyster]

Promised Andy

[wind mulch]

this servers plight elicits no sympathy in me

[versed pollen]

I remember thinking about the shell shard implementation at some point but I don't feel like thinking right now so I won't

[severe steeple]

if we get rid of shell shards entirely there would either be a new system or the carry count would need to be reduced drastically, 3 instead of 8 cog flies

[odd hull]

My favorite boss

[outer cliff]

It encourages using red tools as little as possible which is kind of dumb for your main variation and character building game mechanic

[fringe jungle]

grime 2 is a great example of a metroidvania that has tools that don't cost resources to use. In that game they're replenished at checkpoints and you can find copies of the tools throughout the map to slowly upgrade them throughout the game

[atomic sparrow]

maybe later

[fiery burrow]

this the fun you could be having with bad balance btw

[old compass]

fair

[stable pilot]

I made a replacement for I hope it gets accepted

[sharp slate]

i only really think a few reds have problems with being broken for being ranged, tbh most fights probably go faster if you just attack

[clear fulcrum]

yeah it encourages you to just save your inventory for a hard encounter like a boss, when in reality almost none of the bosses are designed around tools.

[fiery burrow]

awesome stuff good luck

[sharp slate]

sting shard is a very solid red tool imo, which has good skill expression as well

[wind mulch]

red tools are boooooriiiiing

[versed pollen]

The otherside of the bad balanced shooter is Deep Rock having like 2 dominant builds for each character

[fiery burrow]

sting shard is so cool

[vivid belfry]

voltvessels and curveclaw are outliers in how fucked they are

[stable pilot]

Isn't it peak

[fringe jungle]

That's why there's a limit to how many shards you can carry. The shard limit is meant to nudge you towards using your tools since you can't carry more than your max capacity, so might as well use them instead of hoarding onto the shards forever

[sharp slate]

i honestly think its the best designed red

[severe steeple]

yeah but I think tc doesnt want tools to be a main part of the loadout

[fiery burrow]

RIP stingshard pogos

[opaque sigil]

yeah but people always bring those up because they lack the creativity or whimsy to use more interesting things

[clear fulcrum]

I wish volt vessels were worse so I could actually use them without skipping phases in fights

[outer cliff]

Balance is fine but what about realism? I can suspend my disbelief extremely well, but sawblades should be much more visceral than needles. Look it up.

[sharp slate]

i think flintslate is up there as well, because its an intresting skill required red

[vivid belfry]

sting shard is awesome except for the fact that its quicksling synergy is abysmal

[wind mulch]

we need another tool that you dump all at once against the boss for flat damage please i promise this one with be engaging

[sharp slate]

yea

[stark estuary]

“More interesting things” it’s Silksong bro 🥀

[severe steeple]

some are but theres lots of cool ones

[opaque sigil]

Voltspear is peak

[wind mulch]

i wish they had more depth other than varying ways of just spamming damage

[fiery burrow]

why are you in this channel if you don't like silksong

[clear fulcrum]

it's a boring red that doesn't change the way you play whatsoever that will reward you massively for no reason other than the fact that you equipped it

[sharp slate]

red tools were fun to use in my double enemy run, but early game was where it was enjoyable

[versed pollen]

Truth_nuke

[stark estuary]

What skill

[wind mulch]

like what if electric ones momentarily stunned bosses

[stark estuary]

It changes nothing about how you play the game it just rewards you for using it

[outer cliff]

That will just push people into edging the limit. It’s still not using tools as freely as one would like. It also makes using tools on normal enemies for the cool factor feel much worse.

[fringe jungle]

I think they do, they just don't want you to use them all the time

[fiery burrow]

delvers drill is the best cuz it breaks up the monotony of projectile tools

flintslate is cool too

[severe steeple]

it does kinda make you play more aggressively for the time its on and its also there so that nail players have something

[sharp slate]

it rewards you for maximizing nail hits in a peroid of time

its not like its permanent

[stark estuary]

But that’s already the intended way to play the game

[wind mulch]

i really hate red tools and shards it all feels so wasted

[fiery burrow]

same mfs who glaze sword and shield oil btw

[sharp slate]

higher skill players get more reward out of using stuff like flintslate

[clear fulcrum]

if you didn't use it you would be trying to get in as much damage as possible anyways

[sharp slate]

thats type of skilled red tools i like

[opaque sigil]

that shit is PEAK

[vivid belfry]

delver's drill would never get unequipped for me if it weren't for the fact that so many enemies disengage it for no reason

[atomic sparrow]

There are some intresting things that Hornet writes in the journal entries

[sharp slate]

same goes with sting shard

[clear fulcrum]

BY FAR, and it has synergy with beast crest

[opaque sigil]

star have you even USED a chaos oil

[stark estuary]

“Higher skill players” get more “reward” out of using literally any tool what

[outer cliff]

What if I’m scared and lazy and only want to interact with the enemy in obvious telegraphed openings

[eternal berry]

fur fetish

[sharp slate]

....

[clear fulcrum]

literally why is it like this too

you get damaged as well most of the time

[vivid belfry]

it's fuckin awesome on karmelita and seth and then you use it on lost lace and she just pushes you out of her skull by changing her stance

[stark estuary]

ikr lmao

[sharp slate]

Yes but there is a noticable differnce between sting shard and flintslate being used by higher skill players and something like pimpillo or straight pin

[eternal berry]

technically flintslate is an ass tool

it does no damage when you use it

[severe steeple]

I tend to play more defensively and having a limited time boost to my strength were that beast, flint or brew I do tend to be more aggressive. Other red tools I mostly use for safe hits because of their range, I think its a personal playstyle thing

[sharp slate]

There is different levels of improvement/skill ceiling

[eternal berry]

also curveclaw is op as hell

[sharp slate]

i guess i respect red tools with a higher skill ceiling

[wind mulch]

we need tool revamp

[eternal berry]

and satisfying as hell

[fiery burrow]

no cuz Rise and MHGU have mid unlock systems instead of giving you everything right away for some reason

[clear fulcrum]

Well sure but if you're using flintslate it's because you use needle most of the time, so you'd typically be aggressive by design (although silksong bosses dont reward that)

[eternal berry]

curveclaw/curvesickle supremacy

[clear fulcrum]

would be volt vessel if it didn't do a ton of damage btw

[stark estuary]

DB mains having to use piercing bind until SB

[sharp slate]

i actually have less of a problem with regular form of volt vessel and more with the bolas

[opaque sigil]

you can just not

[stark estuary]

Everything feels so ass pre SB though

[sharp slate]

the bolas are bullshit damage, regular is bad but not as atrioucous

[severe steeple]

I think flintslate is perfectly fine as it is strong and it is in its own niche compared to most other tools

[fiery burrow]

dude genuinely who came up with piercing bind lmao

[clear fulcrum]

well yeah aren't they inherently less skillful due to the spammy nature? I don't think you could ever salvage bolas.

[opaque sigil]

sb elavates all the weapons but even in base they're mostly fun it's just that sb is a huge improvement

[wind mulch]

not being able to play wilds makes me feel like a mh unc washed lightning mcqueen

[fiery burrow]

like that's just not fun at all and it doesn't feel like a db move

[stark estuary]

I mean no like half of them are ass why are we just lying

[clear fulcrum]

It's fine, but it's not great, yknow? In a better game it would be one of the weaker designs.

[sharp slate]

another decently designed red tool as much as people hate them tacks and cogflies

[opaque sigil]

I mean it sorta makes sense, it scales off how many times you hit which is db's whole thing

[sharp slate]

passive reds that do damage, but arent insane

[fringe jungle]

I never saw it that way. I felt smart for making decisions on what enemies I could tackle with or without tools, or changing my loadout to tools that were cheaper to make. The system allowed for interesting decision making like this that I embraced.

Additionally, from what I've gathered at this point, the main "problem" with the shard system is that it's designed to limit how often you use your tools. I thought that was cool for the reasons I said above, but plenty of people just want to use their red tools all the time. There's nothing wrong with that, it just heavily clashes with what silksong's shard system is aiming for

[wind mulch]

tacks are ok

but also boring kind of

[fiery burrow]

i don't remember ts holy larp

[sharp slate]

agreed, but i think its fine to have a few fire and forget

[stark estuary]

Long ass animation shit hitbox and it doesn’t last long enough unless someone else applies it

[wind mulch]

what if tacks could actually deny space

[fiery burrow]

that's kinda ok move still sucks though

[stark estuary]

It goes completely against DB’s philosophy

[opaque sigil]

no it doesn't

[wind mulch]

what if cogflies could draw agro

[opaque sigil]

it's a setup move lol

[clear fulcrum]

aren't cogflies literally known for doing insane damage for how little skill they require?

[wind mulch]

on gazillion missed opportunities

[severe steeple]

silksongs combat is still simple, Its not gona be some crazy flick the coin and ricochet it type tool the combat system wasnt designed for that

[sharp slate]

they do good damage over time, but it does take a while to get damage off

you arent using them for any speed kills, plus you dont really get alot of them

[stark estuary]

You shouldn’t be looking for openings to use the shitty setup move with a tiny hitbox and extremely long animation
DB should never be vulnerable it should be able to dodge out of anything and hit the monster whenever it wants

[clear fulcrum]

so... they reward you for not dying immediately?

[fiery burrow]

There's a far better metroidvania with a combo centered combat system

[clear fulcrum]

well this is the same for any tool. I don't think you can solo a boss with tools without architect

[opaque sigil]

blade dance???? finding openings to do longer attacks is absolutely in the identity lol

[stark estuary]

Fun fact blade dance sucks in Rise

And it’s mid in most games actually

[atomic sparrow]

I think cogflies are 400 dmg once its all used which is pretty insane for something like 99% passive (that 1% is you throwing it 🤫)

[sharp slate]

other tools do more total damage, i could see some being used in speed kills as well

[wind mulch]

finding actual openings for your long attacks is pretty woke

[stark estuary]

The best attack is the spin to win and the highest dps is spiral slash which is super safe

[sharp slate]

im not saying using the tools to solo a boss either more as supplements

[stark estuary]

Then play Greatsword or something

[fiery burrow]

marksman revolver genuinely a top 5 video game mechanic

[atomic sparrow]

though this is max tool upgrades

[opaque sigil]

over how long

[sharp slate]

i need to experiment a bit more with reeds though

[fiery burrow]

how did they come up with allat

[severe steeple]

I think that would be better for a seperate tool, say a throwable decoy or something

[wind mulch]

thats the opposite of what i want

[clear fulcrum]

yeah sure, but I'm not talking about balance I'm mainly talking about design. In a vacuum, cogflies are horribly designed.

[vivid belfry]

the theoretical downside is that you can't choose your targets so they're not especially efficient against mixed crowds

[sharp slate]

thats a neat idea for a seperate tool tbh

[stable pilot]

QUESTION OF EXTREME IMPORTANCE
or

[wind mulch]

i think you actually need a form of precognition to be proficient with gs

[fiery burrow]

[sharp slate]

im am curious about time it takes for cogflies to damage tbh

[wind mulch]

top gs players are not human bro

[stark estuary]

Sorry I didn’t realize you meant woke as in bad my apologies

[atomic sparrow]

idk like a minute and a half? two maybe

[sharp slate]

and if the boss goes off screen takes even longer to get damage off

[opaque sigil]

fortunately part of the gameply loop is developing precognition against every boss

[wind mulch]

i forgive you forever

[fiery burrow]

is the only good grub emote is kinda ok but I never use it

[severe steeple]

or maybe even for a new crest that spawns a decoy when your bind and makes you invisible until the next hit

[stark estuary]

I’d rather play reactively

[sharp slate]

im gonna load up pantheon of pharloom see how long cogflies take to go out

[opaque sigil]

the feeble mind of a db main

[stark estuary]

DB bails me out of every bad situation

[wind mulch]

im really bad at playing games in that way

[clear fulcrum]

NKG enjoyer

[wind mulch]

im more-so a purely reactive gorilla person

[atomic sparrow]

we all agree is peak though yeah?

[stark estuary]

Why should I learn patterns when I can just shrouded vault through everything

[fiery burrow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586931790208434203/1500586633915793519/output.gif

[opaque sigil]

how do you not learn patterns and ai behavior after fighting every monster enough

[severe steeple]

because you like fun

[sharp slate]

what does DB stand for?

[opaque sigil]

dual blades

[stark estuary]

Well obviously I learn them eventually

[sharp slate]

oh different game no clue what your talking about thats why

[wind mulch]

i do subconsciously but i definitely notice a difference in the way i learn it compared to others

[fringe jungle]

eventually lol

[orchid spruce]

ouougaga

[wind mulch]

im terrible at certain games for it

[stark estuary]

I don’t just play DB I’m doing a bit I just think it’s objectively more fun to play that way

[opaque sigil]

mh streamlines it by monsters having a mix of unique moves and moves shared with their family

[sweet thistle]

why is lacenet banned

[stark estuary]

Every time I switch to another weapon I’m chasing the same high of shrouded vault or valor dashing through Valstrax

[sharp slate]

it took cogflies about 24 seconds to do their max damage to skull tyrant

[stable pilot]

Because lace is a minor

[wind mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/i-have-an-idea-croods-the-croods-grug-gif-16310881167093655388

[inland sparrow]

cause idiots think lace is a minor

[sharp slate]

let it be noted that this boss does not disappear of screen and barely moves though

[wind mulch]

this is kind of how it feels for me when i play games like mh and dark souls

[opaque sigil]

once you learn how to fight flying wyverns you have fewer things to have to consciously be wary of for each individual flying wyvern and you're extra attentive to their quirks

[stable pilot]

/hornet

[wind mulch]

no accounting for windows and telegraphs just sheer instinct until my monkey brain decides to understand it

[sweet thistle]

for example

horn-ette

[stark estuary]

They’re all the same anyway

[fiery burrow]

once you learn how to spam flash bombs you have fewer things to have to consciously be wary of for each individual flash bomb sponge and you're extra attentive to their quirks

[inland sparrow]

tf is an horn-ette

[stark estuary]

I’ve never actually seen anyone throw a flash bomb in rise

[fiery burrow]

yeah cuz rise is an actually good game

[stark estuary]

No it’s because the community sucks and nobody uses items online

[opaque sigil]

I typically carry them when playing sns you must've seen me throw some when we hunted

[torpid swift]

Idk but I dislike hk ss ships in general

which is a w

[fiery burrow]

eternal emilitia x soul master is good

[wind mulch]

flashbombs against anything other than silverlos is a bit too woke

[torpid swift]

Me x myself

Love yourself guys

[sweet thistle]

So you dislike lacenet

[sharp slate]

it took about 44 seconds for all 8 cogflies to do full damage obn widow for example

[torpid swift]

I do

[sharp slate]

it really depends on the boss

[stark estuary]

Metal raths are actually good in rise

[opaque sigil]

it's called taking advantage of my weapon

[stark estuary]

Use a better weapon man

[dusk quail]

whats up gang

[wind mulch]

i need to stop calling things i dont like woke someone is bound to get the wrong impression

[stark estuary]

sns is garbage

[atomic sparrow]

Silksong is WOKE

[stark estuary]

No you should keep doing it

[torpid swift]

SILKSONG IS FULL OF LESBIANS

[stark estuary]

Every weapon except DB is bad tbh

[fiery burrow]

woah woah lets not get too woke

[opaque sigil]

Sns is actually a brutal control weapon in rise

[inland sparrow]

The problem?

[torpid swift]

nothing

I love the island of lesbos

[opaque sigil]

Kirb can attest I’d be stunning monsters before the fight started

[wind mulch]

like when i quote jordan peterson do people understand it's because its funny and hes an idiot

[fiery burrow]

Wilds SNS is like crack

[stark estuary]

https://tenor.com/view/whyishestilltalkingbilal-meme-brainrot-toverdefance-gif-15191209516763207873

[fiery burrow]

Parryslop but its tasty slop

[orchid spruce]

"Constance is so good" - Jordan Peterson

[clear fulcrum]

is it even possible to have a parry that isnt slop

[fiery burrow]

TRUE

[stark estuary]

Oh hey that’s me

[sharp slate]

nine sols

[wind mulch]

'up yours woke moralists' is genuinely a top ten quote ever

[atomic sparrow]

yo bro you got Seth in this game? maybe I have to play it now

[stark estuary]

We did bully that Mizu

[fiery burrow]

ultrakill sekiro metal gear rising uhhh

[sharp slate]

honestly sk hk parry is solid as well (not saying cross stitch)

[wind mulch]

we'll see who cancels who 😈

[clear fulcrum]

sonion

[stark estuary]

🥀

[clear fulcrum]

mgsr has such a peak parry holy shit

i forgot about that

[torpid swift]

Nine Sols is awesome. I'm a big fan of the combat, and Mainly the story and the characters

[sharp slate]

dead cells has a parry, its okay imo

[stark estuary]

Nobody calls it mgsr larp

[stark estuary]

It’s mgrr

[clear fulcrum]

im not part of the fandom bro 😭

[inland sparrow]

Why the fuck is there slop for everything

[vivid belfry]

I like the parry in another crab's treasure

[atomic sparrow]

parryGEM!

[torpid swift]

Is MIO dodge considered a parry

[inland sparrow]

whats next slopslop?

[fiery burrow]

yeah

[atomic sparrow]

yes

[orchid spruce]

yeah

[fiery burrow]

MIO dodge is uh

Kinda lame imo outside of its platforming uses

[torpid swift]

50% parry

[orchid spruce]

MIO dodge is an omni-directional parry

[vivid belfry]

current cultural morass says that liking things and being authentic is cringe

[dusk quail]

SLOPSONG

[stark estuary]

Mio is also parryslop I guess

[sharp slate]

MIO dodge is uh

[orchid spruce]

No, it's really just a parry that's reframed as "phasing out of the world"

[opaque sigil]

MIO dodge is fun for resetting energy and double jump in combat

[stark estuary]

It’s too broken

[torpid swift]

still gives you that dopamine hits though whenever you use it, whether it's for dodging attacks or strider boosting

I love mio

[opaque sigil]

Then run the mod that makes its timing more strict for free extra slots

[orchid spruce]

all games need a parry to be playable

[fiery burrow]

energy management is more interesting

[stark estuary]

Create problems sell solutions

[orchid spruce]

ender lilies is only this good because it has 3 parries

[fiery burrow]

unless its vlad then its cool

[sharp slate]

I love mio's story it has nothing on mechanics though compared to something like silksong

[torpid swift]

VLAD IS PEAK WDYM

[terse heart]

guys wanna know why you keep dying to karmanamaleeta

[fiery burrow]

vlad is good yeah

its a fight where dodge is fun

[opaque sigil]

Finally another vlad appreciator

[stark estuary]

The story is the same as silksong and every other MV ever made and mechanically it’s more interesting if anything

[torpid swift]

Hell yeah

[stark estuary]

??? I’m right here

[odd hull]

3 times peak

[fiery burrow]

Silksong had something going with centralizing power bro

[sharp slate]

ah yes the mechanic challenge of i have 3 health thats the challenge

[opaque sigil]

MIO’s platforming in particular is a lot better than anything ss has to offer be fr

[orchid spruce]

[stark estuary]

Yeah PK bad or something

[fiery burrow]

so is exploration

SS kinda wins out on combat

[wind mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/oscars-standing-ovation-clap-clapping-applause-gif-5089552

[stark estuary]

The pit sucks

[sharp slate]

platforming is more challenging in mio, but doesnt feel that good imo, it is fun, but doesnt feel satisfying imo

[orchid spruce]

MIO strongest stuff is platforming & exploration

MIO platforming feels AWESOME

[opaque sigil]

SS doesn’t have shairpin idk

[torpid swift]

The only thing I dislike in mio is friends

[vivid belfry]

Mio platforming is like ori platforming

[orchid spruce]

especially when i first try some long platforming

it's insanely fun

[vivid belfry]

except it also has decent combat

[torpid swift]

shairpin my beloved

[opaque sigil]

Friends is… weird

[torpid swift]

true

[stark estuary]

Oh right friends suck since you can’t shairpin them

[sharp slate]

probably why i didnt enjoy ori that much tbh, ui need to give it another shot

i think platforming feeling is a preference tbh

i see that its well designed i just didnt like the feeling of it

[vivid belfry]

I don't think MIO has a bad boss but I missed some

[torpid swift]

It really is.. I couldn't really master their fight at all

[vivid belfry]

friends is fine

[opaque sigil]

Friends being built around striders is interesting

[torpid swift]

mm

[fiery burrow]

MIO has splendid platforming you just have to go looking for it

[sharp slate]

I think bosses are fine, i just think they are simple due to the way they designed difficulty in mio

[opaque sigil]

Yeah there aren’t really any bad ones just a few forgettable ones

[orchid spruce]

Friends is like mid, but fine, nothing offensive

[stark estuary]

It’s not that interesting

[sharp slate]

only boss in MIO spoilers i disliked ALOT was || soll && vin 2 shot gimmick is so stupid||

[opaque sigil]

🔥

[stark estuary]

Yeah that fight is garbage but Star likes it

[torpid swift]

I haven't played the Gameboy mio

[fiery burrow]

I LOVE SLOP

[orchid spruce]

i like it too

[sharp slate]

alot of people like it apparently

[orchid spruce]

count me in the slop gang

[fiery burrow]

Best metroidvania arena I still believe that but the fight has become less impressive on future playthroughs

The ||2 shot|| is fine

[dusk quail]

I LOVE AI SLOP

[stark estuary]

Stop glazing the arena

[clear fulcrum]

why is SS’s platforming such a downgrade from HK’s no one talks about thay

[fiery burrow]

u probably fw lost lace arena mate

[stark estuary]

??? No

[dusk quail]

lost lace arena is fine bro

[torpid swift]

I don't mind how much damage they do, parrying does all the job. The only problem I hate was how they remove the floor

[sharp slate]

its just missing a section like white palace, which hopefully will come out in dlc

[stark estuary]

LL arena is not fine

[clear fulcrum]

the projectiles arent tho

[sharp slate]

though they kinda locked themselves into a bad situation with introducing clawline

[dusk quail]

just dodge

ion know what to say

[stark estuary]

You can’t see shit it’s pretty bad for accessibility

[torpid swift]

silksojg doesn't even have a dlc yet

[orchid spruce]

left side of the lost lace arena being abitrarily disadvantageous is so stupiddd

[fiery burrow]

Sorry GMS arena

[clear fulcrum]

not really, like the fungal wastes platforming section is harder than cogwork core 😭

[fiery burrow]

GMS arena is genuinely so ugly like I feel like I'm alone on this one and it drives me crazy cuz wow that's ugly asf dude

[stark estuary]

😐

[clear fulcrum]

everyone always says this but they forget how much platforming HK actually has

[fiery burrow]

So is GMS herself

[clear fulcrum]

nah the atmosphere is peak there

[fiery burrow]

Because of the soundtrack

[stark estuary]

GMS isn’t ugly you’re alone on that

[dusk quail]

dude its SO MUCH BETTER FYM, i have more fun with silksong

[sharp slate]

Yea I guess, but i think the best comparison i can draw is to nine sols for example, you got PUNISHED for fucking up or getting hit similar to mio, but you could recover. I think thats why i dont like mios combat

[stark estuary]

Nine Sols is a terrible game

[clear fulcrum]

i like rising up and seeing the threads of her coocoon

[fiery burrow]

Dude look at the abdomen and legs and tell me that

[sharp slate]

but then again if mio had a recover system i would have beat all the bosses first try

[orchid spruce]

Nine Sols is not terrible, it's just mid. Solid 4.5/10.

[atomic sparrow]

Die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fiery burrow]

It genuinely looks like a slop anyrad skin

[clear fulcrum]

silksongs platforming is the same three pogos over and over again with an occasional clawline

[atomic sparrow]

Die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stark estuary]

4.5 is what I’d call pretty bad but sure

[real hearth]

i feel like i don’t really approach fights differently in mio which is why i wasn’t a fan of the combat

[clear fulcrum]

baddest HK bug

[stark estuary]

Mid for me would be like a 7

[vivid belfry]

IGN reviewer over here

[real hearth]

like every fight the approach and what i actualy ended up doing was the same

[clear fulcrum]

american grading sysyem

[real hearth]

which left it feeling a bit samey

[fiery burrow]

these are photos on the wiki its not a pretty fight 😭

[sharp slate]

thats fair, i feel like theres only 2 fights that really stood out to me which are Mio spoilers ||one to save mel and final boss||

[orchid spruce]

god, it's so ugly

[broken seal]

when most things are of at least decent quality, 5 is not the average

[orchid spruce]

gms carries the visual

[stark estuary]

Anything below a 5 is a bad game

[fiery burrow]

IF NO ONE GOT ME I KNOW TOWEL GOT ME 🗣️

[stark estuary]

5 is like just barely passable

[real hearth]

i like this tho

[orchid spruce]

i don't mind it being ugly though

[atomic sparrow]

what do we think are some good looking arenas

[wind mulch]

would 5 not be mid

[clear fulcrum]

5 is by definition the average 😭

[fiery burrow]

i'm sorry for ranting but genuinely bro

[wind mulch]

since its the middle

[orchid spruce]

it's the room of a long abandoned god and she's the only beautiful presence there

[broken seal]

@wind mulch ^

[stark estuary]

Mid means average and most games worth talking about aren’t a 5/10

[atomic sparrow]

its just a black screen without gms lmao 😭

[orchid spruce]

i'm fine with it, somewhat. but the background could be less empty

[clear fulcrum]

it’s supposed to make you focus on gms though?

[stark estuary]

The average is reasonably like a 7

[fiery burrow]

I'm talking about everything

[wind mulch]

how does most things being decent change that

the grading system is standardised

[real hearth]

yeah, it admittedly could have a little more going on but for what it is i really like the design of it

[astral scroll]

I was delivering the songclave parcel and broke it just before I got there

[stark estuary]

5 is the median not necessarily the mean

[astral scroll]

pharloome ain't for everyone

[fiery burrow]

The platform is dingy the fact that its just some random cavern is lame and she's cluttering the screen by throwing rocks at you and the design itself looks fanmade

[orchid spruce]

i will never rate a game below a 6 because i'll just drop it if it's that bad

[real hearth]

gms makes the background feel special despite not being

[fiery burrow]

it genuinely just doesn't look good like holy cow

[real hearth]

in my opinion at least

[vivid belfry]

THEY'RE NUMBERS, THERE'S NOT A DATA SET

[wind mulch]

a 7 is obviously good isnt it

[orchid spruce]

the rocks are lame yeah

[clear fulcrum]

When you’re in the middle, that would be the AVERAGE. If a game is average, its not bad, its not good. Right in the middle.

[orchid spruce]

i don't like the scissors neither tbh. it's still a good fight, but the aesthetics could be cooler

[stark estuary]

You do realize when people use the term mid they aren’t referring to the literal middle

[clear fulcrum]

thats kinda the point imo
the radiance blended in way too much and they definitely wanted to avoid that here

[orchid spruce]

just nitpicking

[stark estuary]

Mid is used to refer to something of relatively low quality

[sharp slate]

rocks are probably the only problem i have with the GMS fight, visual clutter im not a fan of

[clear fulcrum]

BRO?? where do you think mid comes from 😭

[real hearth]

absolutely agree plus radiance is going for like a “god at the peak of their power” rather than a weakened being

[sharp slate]

you can still see needles behind the rocks but its annoy af imo

[clear fulcrum]

besides they used average, not mid

[broken seal]

and yet it isn't scaled linearly. something ranked an 8 isn't twice as good as something ranked a 4, jt'a typically multiple degrees better

[stark estuary]

That’s not how people use words

[real hearth]

like gms

[torpid swift]

things can lose its meaning over time you realize

[clear fulcrum]

sure, but the person that started this didnt even say mid. You’re arguing semantics for no reason.

[fiery burrow]

its like how calling something mediocre is not exactly a glowing review

[stark estuary]

Well I started it by saying I think Nine Sols was mid

[orchid spruce]

games got better in general and access to games is better nowadays, so people will play better games. so a mid game nowadays is still really good

[fiery burrow]

Nine Sols is mid (To clarify, this is just my opinion, its totally okay if you enjoyed Nine Sols, it just does not match my established preferences in games I've come to accumulate in over a decade of gaming, which is further exacerbated by specific gameplay choices I did not personally enjoy. I'd like to reiterate its okay to like Nine Sols, and it may still be worth checking out, I'm just giving my opinion on the matter. Have a wonderful day)

[real hearth]

i mean i guess it also depends on what you mean by mid

[stark estuary]

To clarify what I meant I was saying Nine Sols was of low quality and later called it terrible so there would be no confusion

[atomic sparrow]

DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[wind mulch]

i mean it's entirely subjective lmao this is pointless but I dont understand how 7/10 is mid in anyones mind

[topaz hamlet]

What is sea of sorrow is the code name for zoteboat, as both take place at sea

[wind mulch]

like that has always meant good to me

[orchid spruce]

you gotta play nine sols one of these days

[real hearth]

like if you mean mid compared to something else or neither good or bad quality as a whole

[sharp slate]

I think Nine sols is a very well designed game imo, probably my #2 or 3 for metroidvanias

[atomic sparrow]

When my eyes turn red. RUN.

[real hearth]

those are completely different

[wind mulch]

is this lowk cultural because in america 70% is a mediocre grade

[stark estuary]

Yeah maybe because MV is a slop genre idk

[torpid swift]

Mine too

[stark estuary]

I’m not even American

[orchid spruce]

I'm Asian

[sharp slate]

i need to play through a few more metroidvanias, retry ori 2 and ender lilies on the list

[wind mulch]

oh idk then

[orchid spruce]

8 is acceptable, 7 is mediocre, 6 is bad, 5 is trash, <5 die

[vivid belfry]

agreed, #3, would be above HK if I wasn't biased towards HK's vibes

[fiery burrow]

there are a few diamonds in the rough like Ori

[real hearth]

7 being just mediocre is kinda crazy imo

[sharp slate]

if i got a 70 when i used to be in school my parents would kill me

[fiery burrow]

I ❤️ crunch

[orchid spruce]

asian genes

[wind mulch]

isnt 70 a C in the states

[wind mulch]

are you american

[sharp slate]

it should be yea

[real hearth]

ykw that’s fair

[stark estuary]

7 is probably average

[sharp slate]

though there is some variance on grading across the US now, its stupid

[fiery burrow]

why do no metroidvanias except MIO and HK lean into actually interesting map design the genre offers

[real hearth]

i’m hispanic i fuck with 5/10s lol

[wind mulch]

a 70 is usually an A obviously depending on national average where i live

[fiery burrow]

genuinely slop

[orchid spruce]

ender lilies

[sharp slate]

oh interesting

[orchid spruce]

[odd hull]

lmao insane

[broken seal]

gang what

[stark estuary]

I mean I pirate everything anyway so at least I don’t have to worry about whether or not my money was well spent

[real hearth]

that’s kinda crazy

[wind mulch]

most countries dont use standardised grading outside of university

[real hearth]

where i was going to school 70 was 1 points above a failing grade

[odd hull]

6 is very good, 7 is perfect. 8 and onwards is masterpiece

[wind mulch]

the grade equivalent of your score is dependent on the national average

[real hearth]

like barely passable

[sharp slate]

as an american this is how grading system worked when i was in HS below 60 failing 60-69 D 70-79 C 80-89 B 90-100 A

[wind mulch]

ive had exams where a 50 was an A

[stark estuary]

7 is by definition not perfect

[stark estuary]

Are you British

[broken seal]

yeah i realize i just never realized that it was so low for an A

[stark estuary]

Or European

[wind mulch]

i am yea

[sharp slate]

this seems similar to what we call a curve here

[broken seal]

they don't mean literally perfect

[odd hull]

It is

[sharp slate]

in college courses a curve would be applied based on how well the bad the class did

[stark estuary]

If it were perfect it would be a 10

[real hearth]

i’m so sorry for your loss

[sharp slate]

so you could get that 50% is an A type stuff

[fiery burrow]

e-e-even silksong? 😨

[broken seal]

the cheese is under the sauce

[wind mulch]

yea thats sort of the standard for everything here

[atomic sparrow]

especially silksong 🐺

[stark estuary]

Yeah I pirated Silksong

[wind mulch]

dont be england is great tbh

[odd hull]

Nah

[orchid spruce]

in seriousness, my scaling is like 7 is good. 8 is very good. 9 is gem. 10 is masterpiece.

[real hearth]

that makes a bit more sense

[severe steeple]

no money or just piggy backing off of other people respecting laws?

[sharp slate]

Yea that makes sense, in the USA you will see some similar stuff in college, but its not standard amount elementry or high schools to my knowledge, at least not the ones i attended

[stark estuary]

How do you feel about the local elections

[wind mulch]

its not looking good brev

[orchid spruce]

i'm easy to please so i already have two 10s

[sharp slate]

yikes

[real hearth]

i am probably similar in that like anything above 6.5/10 is good

[atomic sparrow]

dawg is today some special holiday or smth why they launching fireworks

[wind mulch]

reform will probably collapse before the general election

and green is a tiktok party

[stark estuary]

I just like getting things without having to pay for them

[fiery burrow]

disrespecting almost a decade of team cherry's hard work but whatever

[wind mulch]

im not a fan of either

[broken seal]

so politics sucks everywhere huh

[wind mulch]

essentially

[broken seal]

"i just like stealing"

[orchid spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/shut-up-cat-monch-cat-monch-spinfal-gif-19376414

[severe steeple]

well be gratefull that its a legal grey zone due to most people not doing so

[real hearth]

do u buy games that u like after u pirate them or do u just pirate them and never buy

[atomic sparrow]

yeah where are the mods. we do not tolerate TC disrespect here.

[stark estuary]

I mean no stealing is very different because when you steal the supplier loses a product they could have otherwise sold whereas with piracy the developer loses literally nothing

[wind mulch]

surprisingly we lose the consistent curve in college lol its really just a mid-highschool thing

[real hearth]

like if u pirated silksong and loved it and later bought it i think thats ok

[fiery burrow]

stealing from team cherry is like stealing from moon studios or adobe tbf

[stark estuary]

No I never buy them

[real hearth]

uh oh

[orchid spruce]

pirating is fine if you can't afford to

[stark estuary]

Pirating is fine full stop

[orchid spruce]

if you can and just never, that's ugh bad

[sharp slate]

thats interesting, neat how every country has their own way

[wind mulch]

mm

[fiery burrow]

i think i'm gonna throw up

[wind mulch]

the american school system has always seemed a tad psychotic to me

[astral scroll]

sea of sorrow tomorrow

[stark estuary]

I would download a car actually

[sharp slate]

i dont talk about pirating on here, because if i rant against it i would get fucking jumped

[real hearth]

adobe is also like 200 dollars a year even if u only use one program

[odd hull]

Ah thank goodness

[wind mulch]

i've never understood homework contributing to your final grade

[sharp slate]

at least last time i did

[atomic sparrow]

you wouldn't download a car

[broken seal]

they lose the money they would've gotten if you had bought the product like everyone else. And the sentence "I just like getting things without having to pay for them" is not exclusive to pirating.

[orchid spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-look-side-eye-bombastic-bombastic-side-eye-gif-2838294034054004015

[long grove]

"Sea of sorrow tomorrow" mentioned

[fiery burrow]

ok but adobe products are more useful than ori and silksong

[sharp slate]

This if you steal a candy bar from walmart they arent losing money because they have insurance so its okay right (not supporting pirating/stealing just point out stupidity)

[orchid spruce]

i love ender lilies ❤️

[fiery burrow]

I think its okay to pirate their stuff but I would pay for it more than those

[real hearth]

that’s true

[severe steeple]

you need a reality check if you think its fine full stop. There is a reason it illegal, were it not then the world couldnt work as we know it

[atomic sparrow]

Peak

Sols 🥹

[real hearth]

like if u could buy one program separately i would feel better abt it

[clear fulcrum]

whats your favorite silksong act

[broken seal]

lowkey stealing from big businesses or evil coorporations is based but idk if this chat is ready for that convo

[stark estuary]

Yeah I like getting things without having to pay for them but not at the expense of others
Most of the time the alternative to piracy is just not buying the game full stop so no the developer doesn’t lose anything and there is no evidence to suggest it’s a harmful practice, if anything piracy can actually be beneficial

[clear fulcrum]

Not the best way to make a point but it’s right regardless

[wind mulch]

if someone writes the rest of my essay for me i will cash app them half a dollar

im feeling generous

[atomic sparrow]

hey

[real hearth]

maturing is saying act 3

[fiery burrow]

writes* wow ur essay gonna suck if that's how u write smh

[wind mulch]

"rights" yea this essay is doomed

[stark estuary]

Copyright law is stupid though
Are you saying every law is good

[wind mulch]

lmao

[odd hull]

[stark estuary]

Appeal to authority

[clear fulcrum]

then people who pirate would be forced into pirating xbox and ps5 games 😭

why do people who pirate think of themselves as robinhood

[atomic sparrow]

don't worry you have me

[fiery burrow]

I was all for abolishing copyright law until I learned it could be used to say people are evil for generating tung tung tung sahur memes

[clear fulcrum]

literally how lol

[broken seal]

idk

[stark estuary]

Tung… he’s dead

[sharp slate]

its so annoying tbh, people think they are sticking it to big companies but they just justify their own crimes

[atomic sparrow]

He's with... tung now??

[wind mulch]

do you feel Kants deontological framework is too rigid to be applied in real world ethical decision making or nah

[fiery burrow]

ur stealing from artists and draining the pacific ocean for this btw

[real hearth]

hype moments and aura

[sharp slate]

go support your smaller shops, maybe thats a crazy concept though (for what you can)

[wind mulch]

i wish kant was alive so i could kill him again

[long grove]

When possible give Ori and Journey a chance

[stark estuary]

People who pirate don’t think of themselves as Robin Hood they just don’t care and neither should you

[severe steeple]

just because copyright gets abused and overused doesnt make it fundementally stupid, its important if you are somebody that creates

[sharp slate]

it has its uses

[clear fulcrum]

Exactly it’s some false ideal that never sticks. Even if you start out by only pirating games from “evil companies” you’d eventually just end up pirating any game because evil companies don’t produce good games lol

[stark estuary]

^knows nothing about copyright law

[atomic sparrow]

yes

[clear fulcrum]

Someone literally just said its justified to steal from big corporations

[sharp slate]

tbh if copyright didnt exist sites that distrubute pirated material would be rampant because they wouldnt get taken down at all

[wind mulch]

following the rules of wider society is un-nietzschian so you should copyright everything

[clear fulcrum]

if you got me pregnant im sure our baby would disagree

[stark estuary]

Piracy being illegal doesn’t make it bad anyhow something being illegal doesn’t equate it being immoral

[atomic sparrow]

!

[wind mulch]

well we agree so far the essay is yours

[real hearth]

can we put it to the test carter

[long grove]

forget it, just saw ur profile

[atomic sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/allmight-bnha-mha-meme-fist-up-gif-13588517052470008833

[severe steeple]

^ thinks being able to take somebodies personal work without permission will not lead to anything negative

[fiery burrow]

its not theft but the gigachad is right lowk

[stark estuary]

It’s not taking though you clearly just don’t understand what piracy even is

[fiery burrow]

what's it gonna lead to

[sharp slate]

if everyone pirated the work wouldnt fucking exist in the first plac

[orchid spruce]

I'm playing Ori 2 rn, haven't played it in a while. It's good but I'm not really feeling it that much.
I tried Ori 1, but couldn't stand its combat so I dropped it.

[wind mulch]

i ai generate because i hate the environment

[clear fulcrum]

im getting flustered

[sharp slate]

talk silksong for example, if everyone pirated hollow knight do you think silksong woukld exist

[clear fulcrum]

citadel maxxing

[wind mulch]

sometimes i see a forest fire on the news and i just get giddy

[sharp slate]

the only reason you can pirate is because other people are buying

[atomic sparrow]

gah get a room you two! tch the young people these days...

[stark estuary]

Meaningless hypothetical
You could certainly argue that all art should be a public good but that’s irrelevant

[fiery burrow]

dude you've sold me pirating is based ❤️‍🩹

[real hearth]

😭

[severe steeple]

piracy is taking somebodies work without their permission just because you arent willing to get said things by the ways the creators made it available to you.

[clear fulcrum]

tbh tc would have gotten jobs from any big company due to that many people pirating a single game 😭

[long grove]

the gameplay is kinda hard, but the story...

[wind mulch]

im stealing the art to make some kind of artistic statement you see

[fiery burrow]

does it lead to harm

[wind mulch]

however your mind isnt capable of such nuance

[fiery burrow]

if it doesn't harm the devs no one cares lowk

[orchid spruce]

hard isn't the word, i think. the ori games are not hard.
i'm not invested in the story tbh, it's pretty generic and ai-generated (joke)

[wind mulch]

bro might be Bentham

[stark estuary]

You aren’t taking anything though explain to me clearly what the developer loses when an individual pirates their game (and don’t say “they lost one potential sale” because the person pirating is unlikely to have ever bought the game in the first instance but may go on to after pirating it or tell other people about it who go on to buy it etc.)

[sharp slate]

The promotion of pirating has defintely lead to economic losses for developers, i guarentee you if there wasnt a push for piracy so much online that devs would be making more money

[severe steeple]

In most cases its insignificant yes but thats ONLY because its technically illegal and the amount of people doing so are not large enough for it to be a true problem.

[sharp slate]

if you flipped a switch tomorrow and made pirating impossible, devs would generate more money

[long grove]

what about the poor owls? y do u hate them?

[wind mulch]

i dont want them to generate more money

[stark estuary]

Show me the evidence that it’s lead to economic losses for developers
You know they’ve lost more money on anti piracy software and shit than they ever lost from piracy itself lmao

[real hearth]

i think the point is moreso that if done in mass that it could lead to financial loss for developers not that your one instance of pirating is causing harm itself

[stark estuary]

It doesn’t matter even then and also meaningless hypothetical

[orchid spruce]

lol i don't hate them... i just don't care

[wind mulch]

what would Kant say 🤔

im going to include this conversation in my essay

[sharp slate]

the only reason people think its not causing harm atm is that they claim they wouldnt buy it even if they couldnt pirate it

which is false in someone like spirit of the ashes case

if you couldnt pirate games you would still play them right? actually buy a game?

[stark estuary]

tung tung tung tung sahuuuuuuuur tung tung sahuuuuuuuur

[atomic sparrow]

where?

[clear fulcrum]

It hurts any corporate developers no matter what, especially when people typically pirate older games. If an old franchise wants to make a comeback, but is unsure if anyone wants it, they’ll typically make a remaster.

[long grove]

That’s fine, I first thought that HK was generic too (First 10 min playing)

[real hearth]

i don’t necessarily disagree but i also believe in supporting art forms that you enjoy, like i pirate some stuff but if i enjoy it i always end up purchasing it or tellin other people to consume the art as well

[sharp slate]

tbh everyone i feel like has the ritual of quitting hk after first x minute or hour and coming back to it later lol

[fiery burrow]

I jus don't think developers are entitled to my money if I'm not taking anything from them

[real hearth]

not purchasing at all (if you’re able) and just pirating imo seems like u don’t gaf about the art, which is OK i guess but i just fundamentally disagree

[wind mulch]

access to art is your divine right as a human if monetisation is blocking you steal that shit on foenem grave

[severe steeple]

It needs to be illegal for the world to work, the only reason some countries have it legal is because the output of digital serviced of those countries is so low that they can profit off of their people pirating things. This doesnt need to be about how much that individual pirate matters but how many people pirate in general

[orchid spruce]

i'm like 5 hours deep and met quite some npcs and characters, but honestly couldn't care less about any of them. but that's fine if you love them. taste differs.

[sharp slate]

I just think online space has made people so fucking entitled moving from CDs to online versions

[tired depot]

Wsg chat

[clear fulcrum]

This is also true!! People will pirate anything, and if they enjoy it they still won’t buy it or support the devs. Some nabbit account on twitter made Silksong public the DAY OF release and people would hate on you for saying that was wrong.

[stark estuary]

Yeah supporting artists is cool but they aren’t entitled to your support if you’re not taking anything from them, not everyone wants to or can support developers although it’s possible to still support a developer’s work indirectly through pirating it

[wind mulch]

thats it im downloading a car

[sharp slate]

online access to games have revolutionized access across the world which wasnt possible for indies

[clear fulcrum]

are you not taking their art?

[atomic sparrow]

pirating discussion in my #sk-discussion ? somethings never change 🥹

[stark estuary]

No you’re not “taking” it

[clear fulcrum]

it’s happened like two times today

[fringe jungle]

I'm inclined to disagree because poor people exist and just because you can't afford to buy a game doesn't mean you don't care about the art

[atomic sparrow]

🥹 ❤️‍🩹

[stark estuary]

Taking implies that they’ve lost a product they could have otherwise benefited from

[sharp slate]

yea because everyone is an entitled twit

[clear fulcrum]

You are by definition taking it. They sell it, you buy it. That’s the agreement. If you play the product without buying it, you are taking it. Stealing.

[sharp slate]

i only wish i had a button to force us back into the CD age

[real hearth]

(if you’re able) is very important here, i value poor people quite a bit and anyone who can’t purchase off of that alone is excluded from what i’m saying

[wind mulch]

what if i stole the CD's

[odd hull]

Heloo

[fringe jungle]

ok thumbs up

[clear fulcrum]

So many people on day 1 of silksong wanted it, then a guy on twitter posted a public file and it got 70k likes.

[real hearth]

i agree! honestly as long as you’re sharing it to reach people who will potentially purchase the art i think that’s enough

[stark estuary]

No stealing means that they’ve lost a product they could have otherwise sold, when you buy a game you don’t actually own something tangible, likewise when you pirate a game the developer doesn’t lose a product they could have otherwise sold (and you likely weren’t going to buy it to begin with)

[clear fulcrum]

it would be refreshing because at least you’d be admitting that it’s stealing 😭

[sharp slate]

even if you cant afford a game you should save up imo, games go on sale all the time on steam for relatively cheap. if you can save enough for a device to play on you can save for a game. Obviously this gets tricky with other countries where money doesnt transfer as easy, but in that case i would show my support to games that actively support my country by lowering prices that lower prices in my country (it is getting more common for indies which is amazinhg)

[wind mulch]

we must venture beyond good and evil

[severe steeple]

its a service youre paying for, youre paying for the development. You dont go to a barber or a therapist and not pay

[clear fulcrum]

Why are we lying? Just the availability of pirating makes people LESS likely to buy something. That’s hundreds and thousands of potential customers that might’ve bought the game if they saw no other option to play it.

[stark estuary]

When I go to a barber I’m paying the barber for their time and services, if I go in get a haircut and don’t pay for it I’ve taken time out of their day that they could’ve used to cut the hair of a paying customer

[long grove]

Gabe Newell (Steam owner) “Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem.”

[real hearth]

tbf i’m kinda talking out of my ass here the only reason i even played silksong is because of steam gameshare

[stark estuary]

Do you actually have any evidence this is the case

[clear fulcrum]

people like you 😭

[scarlet karma]

pirating once again returns to sk discussion as a topic

[fringe jungle]

lmao ok

[stark estuary]

Nice gotcha but that’s not evidence

[severe steeple]

same for game development, you have taken time the developers spent and not payed for it

[sharp slate]

you can confidently say you would never play games if pirating didnt exist?

if you can confidently say that

[stark estuary]

But I’ve not taken their time specifically, if you don’t understand the distinction then there’s no reason to continue debating this

[real hearth]

i bought base hollow knight on my own! but i haven’t had enough money left over to buy silksong since 😭

[stark estuary]

The game developer has already spent time making the game whether or not I pay to play it has no impact on that whatsoever lol

[real hearth]

W gameshare

[clear fulcrum]

It literally is? a decade ago you wouldn’t have even known about pirating lol.

[old compass]

some games do indeed fall under that though
I think I can rightfully pirate bloodborne

[sharp slate]

if you pirate all your games you are saying you wouldnt play games if pirating didnt exist. can you answer the question? Would you play games still if pirating didnt exist?

[severe steeple]

They spent time to create a product that they sell to you, thats their investment and thats the only way they allow you to play it. In what world do you think its perfectly fine to go and take something withou permission just because you cannot comprehend the past tense

[real hearth]

if they got off of their asses and made a pc port we wouldn’t have this problem

[stark estuary]

Whether I would or wouldn’t is irrelevant but if you insist upon an answer then yes it is likely that there are many games I wouldn’t have played if not for the ability to pirate them

[orchid spruce]

talk about lace age or phantom pronoun or something instead

[stark estuary]

You just don’t understand what you’re talking about if you think buying a game is the same as a haircut lmao

[wind mulch]

I pirate free indie games just to feel something

[atomic sparrow]

pirating is a classic it can stay

[sharp slate]

bloodborne doesnt have a pc port, interesting didnt know that tbh

[orchid spruce]

this dumdum conversation to humor a bum

[sharp slate]

i just dont support games that dont have a port, plenty of games to play

[scarlet karma]

yes it does tho? lowk such a brainless argument

[severe steeple]

very intellectual you are, ignore everything I said to try to explain to somebody who couldnt comprehend my first comparison... youre a genius

[sharp slate]

more than i can ever wish to play tbh

[fringe jungle]

no literally if you aren't going to allow me to buy your game what do you want me to do

[clear fulcrum]

smarty is actually smart when it comes to anything but silksong 🥹

[scarlet karma]

both are done by talented people who want to make a profit off their talent

[severe steeple]

im just a silksong glazer then I guess

[real hearth]

they want u to buy a whole ass ps4 and the $60 game

[wind mulch]

at the end of the day you are taking a licensed product without permission and stopping them from making money of it, even if it isnt stealing in a strictly semantic sense it might as well be, just argue why thats actually ok like a real sigma

[rose trail]

i was at a family function today and a kid i know well asked me "i just got double jump in ancent basin yadda" and he was asking me where to go next and i geniunely just told him some of the route to true ending (without telling him about what it leads to ofc) and now i realize there's so much backtracking to do with double jump i can't js explain it once, this game is huge.

[fringe jungle]

right, let me buy the clown outfit and makeup while I'm at it

[real hearth]

that’s how exclusives work they want the exclusives to make you buy the console

[fringe jungle]

yeah I don't like exclusives

[real hearth]

and not the actual console itself

[fringe jungle]

although that's a whole other can of worms

[real hearth]

they probably sell more units off of exclusives than the actual product of the console lol

[stark estuary]

Alright let me try to explain this in a way you can understand

Piracy of digital games is not harmful because copying a game doesn’t deprive the developer of the original copy, as digital goods are non-rivalrous and almost cost nothing to reproduce, so nothing tangible is lost. In contrast, getting a haircut without paying directly harms the barber: their labor and time are consumed, which are rivalrous and unrecoverable, so they suffer a real, immediate loss. The key difference is that digital goods can be duplicated without taking anything away, while physical services or objects are scarce and cannot be enjoyed without compensating the provider.

You aren’t paying the developer for their “time” when you buy the game, if that’s your understanding of things then idk what to even tell you

[orchid spruce]

the fact that i have every other item in the bundles is crazy

[fringe jungle]

grime mention

[wind mulch]

you are depriving them of potential profit no matter now you spin it

[fringe jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/curious-very-curious-magnifying-glass-looking-peeking-gif-3027926178787907205

[orchid spruce]

not buying tho, me too broke

[old compass]

why are you blurring the price tag

[severe steeple]

its the exact same thing but they just did the work in advance. Would you rather have to pay the developers directly while theyre making the game for you to then be able to play it?

[stark estuary]

“Potential” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there

[wind mulch]

the argument of how entitled they are to those profits is more worthwhile

[fringe jungle]

yahhrr

[orchid spruce]

country

[real hearth]

why are we crossing out the price 😭

[wind mulch]

well yea

[real hearth]

oh nvm

i’m slow

[stark estuary]

Regardless the argument at hand is that it isn’t stealing

[long grove]

If the legal option is worse than the pirate one, that’s a service problem too tbh

[hardy tangle]

so random people who don't gaf who this dude is can't decide to dox him for no reason

[stark estuary]

I’ve explained the distinction

[long grove]

Piracy will always exist, but when the service is good, most people who still pirate are just people who can’t afford it anyway, so the service remains viable

[fringe jungle]

this is true

[hardy tangle]

who else pirates for the thrill and adrenaline

[wind mulch]

the distinction is just semantic nonsense to be honest

[real hearth]

very true, the real discussion should be rather or not that is a positive or negative practice

[old compass]

pirating is too inconvenient so no

[wind mulch]

it isnt stealing in a technical sense but it obviously is the deprivation of profits by non-legal means

these arguments go nowhere because people just argue technical definition over the actual morality of the action

[orchid spruce]

hmmm, tough

[hardy tangle]

you just find a website

[stark estuary]

When you buy a game, all you’re paying for the license to enjoy the developer’s creation. It’s not for their time or their work or whatever the fuck, you don’t actually “own” anything. The developer already made the game in advance irrespective of your choice to support their work and once complete the game can be copied endlessly for free without their work being lost in the process.

[atomic sparrow]

free silksong . com

[old compass]

I rather have everything in one place (my steam library)

[orchid spruce]

rusted moss feels super niche, i'll either love it or hate it and i can't know

[stark estuary]

If you could copy infinite haircuts for free without the barber being harmed from one haircut that would be an apt comparison

[orchid spruce]

momodora

[hardy tangle]

you can put stuff in folders

[old compass]

too inconvenient

and also virus

[orchid spruce]

pseudoregalia seems great but i heard it's really short

[stark estuary]

Like if the barber spent their time cutting one person’s hair and that one person managed to somehow distribute that one haircut to a bunch of other people at no cost lmao

[hardy tangle]

easiest shit wvet

[stark estuary]

What a stupid hypothetical you just don’t understand how any of this works do you

[odd hull]

Momodora looks so cute

[old compass]

well I'm just gonna be fr I just don't like checking for viruses

[hardy tangle]

viruses don't exist anymore you gotta go to the deepest butt cheek crevices of the internet to get one

[orchid spruce]

i guess, not as pretty as games i've played though

i just played too many good games

[old compass]

I still doubt that tbh

[fringe jungle]

played one of the momodora games, it was pretty fun although super short as well

[sharp slate]

went and got a snack now im back

[odd hull]

30min probably are just in the menu. aaaa I need to finish more games

[fringe jungle]

haven't really kept up with that series since

[hardy tangle]

pirating is super easy that's why most people do it

[old compass]

I guess

[sharp slate]

tbh this conversation was completely avoidable on your end if you didnt brag about pirating, thats all im saying, thats last im gonna talk about it

[fringe jungle]

that's the one I played and I think I basically 100%ed it in under 10 hours lol

short fun little metroidvania

[hardy tangle]

if people got viruses why is there so many people doing it

[orchid spruce]

is the MOSS in your tag for Rusted Moss

[old compass]

survivor bias

[odd hull]

Yep yep

[sharp slate]

im currently achievement hunting a few, some games i like doing it for tbh sk i did as well

[stark estuary]

I mean it was my choice to initiate the conversation and it’s my choice to continue it

[odd hull]

I see I see

[orchid spruce]

i wanna buy it but scared i'll hate the grappling mechanic

[sharp slate]

ik im just saying im done because its not porductive

[hardy tangle]

it's especially easy with shows and movies

[sharp slate]

tbh its kinda funny how an all achievment run for silksong might be shorter than hks in theory hmmm

[hardy tangle]

games i'd rather just buy

[atomic sparrow]

whos gonna be your next pfp
defect? 🤔