#sk-discussion
1 messages · Page 2219 of 1
In early it's not a horrible source of extra damage
I never got the hype
skill issue, bro didnt spec into fire eating
i still want the game out just so i could see more of THIS GUY https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/hollowknight/images/7/71/Sherma.png/revision/latest?cb=20190214142742
but I only get reminded of its “existence” whenever smth official comes up
whether it be from team chery themselves or a game source trolling
yah
hey guys
im just here rn cuz i saw that tga tweet
WHICH
Tga tweet?
THE HYPE IS SO BACK
Also
I think they mean the GamesCom tweet
The coliseum of fools in hollow knight must be a logistical nightmare
i am playing Code Vein rn
messing around w the character creator
i have like 3 presets made already
who do i make next
They have to go out and capture or breed multiple enemies
That's the gamescon one lol
that’s why i was here originally i just forgot why along the way
the heck is codevein
anime dark souls, but im only playing to mess w the character creator atm
but yea thank you geoff keighley for reminding me that this game was supposed to come out
When are the games awards?
oh neat
They're late next week?
TGA date hasn't been announced yet
game awards are usually in december
usually december
on hannukah
ye
Yeah I guess I could do Silksong announcement then
I fully expect no news until the 14th of February though
And if we get nothing on that 14th it won't be until 2026...
still cant believe its been 5 years since the game was announced and we know nothing abt it
y'all hollow knight fans ?
I fully expect no chocolates until the 14th of February
metroid prime 4 was announced back in 2017 and it just got its first trailer
We know more than I thought
with it releasing in 2025
I mean that the massive game
And the devs had the brain to not tease too much until the game was nearly done
i give them however long, but don’t expect me to rly be hyped till a release date comes
however i’d preferably give them till i graduate from college
they have 48 hours to give me my money back
I mean yeah nobody has any reason to expect that
Heh, I start collage in 2 weeks
Too bad we ban folks for not being hyped
cuz i want as much time as possible to play it 😭
flying to australia going to adelaide going to tc base
this game has been announced since my freshman year of highschool bruh
and now im a college junior
I'm kinda excited for people to scrounge through the code, there will be less interesting stuff than at all and I probably still some interesting stuff
true
I wish I was that short /j
But are you sure that wasn't a child?
had a full beard
so just a little guy ?
kirb i thought you were saying YOU had a full beard
😔
no
No
sad
and 
😔
Pharloom still functions
Kirb doesnt have a magnificent beard….this is the saddest thing I’ve ever heard…..
No nightmare essence to be had
Also if Grimm came back you'd have to do the same stupid insufferable fetchquest
Grimm is great
oh fuck that fetchquest
yea ur right nvm screw grimm
I don't dislike the fetch quest, I hate the enemies
my genes dont allow for proper beard
yea its the enemies that i specifically hate
They spend 80% of their time in the walls
like WHY DOES DADDY GRIMM NEED TO HAVE THOSE
I'm like grimm but better
- i'm a little guy
- my fire abilities are better
- i don't give fetchquests I contribute to battles
- don't have a circus
grimm aint yo daddy
i bet i could grab grimm by his stupid fortune cookie horns and throw him w that Arthro Jiu Jutsu
he is mine
He can teleport though
fun fact; grimm and glep are my fav fictional characters ever
and they both start with g’s
Grimm can’t escape this command grab
I'm boring so I probably would say Hornet rn
S H A W
But Grimm, Mantis Lords, and Dung Defender are all also up there
My fav fictional characters are all the ones in Outer Wilds I think 
Man I sometimes forget how much I love hk
Starcraft's writing is too inconsistent to have a true favorite character, other than maybe Abathur
Ik glep from smiling friends is up there for me
That's the only other game with half a focus of characters
should i play outer wilds
“glep do you know why ss is taking so long”
random gibberish
luke atmey moment
yeah
do you like dark souls
ok i wont wont wont wont wont wont will not not not not not not not play it
inject more smh
not how chemistry works
Jimbei my goat ngl
honestly mine probably aren't 
its okay if ss doesnt come out for me tho cuz indies are still going strong ✊
world of goo 2 dropped this month
and i considered getting that new fnaf game
into the pit i think
Into the MID !!!
fake fake fake fake fan
jk I haven't seen it yet
nah ow is still my favorite game and the characters are great they're just not my favorite characters period
what are they
You have been permanently kirbed
NOOOO
oh yeah dry bones is also one of my fav characters too
probably a bunch of tellius folks, Ike, Soren, Micaiah (and an honorary mention for Brighid/Eyvel)
bruh !
I main him in Mario Kart and use him in every single game he’s playable in
https://www.artstation.com/lub_de you should check out my goat Lub
nothing could separate my love from dry bones
tellius is fire emblem right
not even when he was the hardest part from mario and sonic olympic winter games where u face him in curling
animation cant be that hard
yeah
also damn these are rly sick
crowsorn in undertale style tho
🔥
mid in mid style 😴
i rather have pvz style
pvz on top

another one? first we need a good one
fearless fox is one
slay the spire is good
maybe you just have no taste
sts2 🧎♂️
STS is bad bc my card rng is bad
peak mentioned
just slim out your hand
Bro doesn't know card removal exists for a reason 

fuck time eater all my homies hate time eater
-this post was sponsored by watcher gang
i havent played in over a year what are u talkin about
never liked you...
Bloodborne fans when they're in a street fight and their enemy doesn't bleed out a gallon of blood every hit (How will they get their blood vials?)
feeling's mutual motherfucker
sts-lore
if only
the final boss will be the spire brain in sts 2
oh wait inscryption exists
any sigmas in chat
.me
me class
youre a ligma
i alone, am the hollowed one
To be reduced to dust, like dry grass consumed by a fiery blaze```
Fax
what are u saying
spiritual warfare
mental breakdown over a lack of silk and song
so true selaco taco
time eater more like shit eater because its eating shit
thats just rude
well time eaters also rude
you dont know what theyre going through
well it should eat someone else's time
Goddamn it
wtf true
You reminded me of the thing
I’m not good at editing but I was gonna do the abyss creature with gojo’s body
Silksong 2 will be at Gamescom
old news
Oh....
Hope this helps 🙏
damn you really stole that from me
So peak
shoulda trademarked it
sue for copyright
the strongest
.
Mid kaisen ends in 5 chapters
yuji will be killed off at the last second just because
13 by Low Roar on Once in a Long, Long While... really encapsulates a day
😌
not a specific day like good or bad or neutral or terrible or anything like that
just a day 🥹
its perfect i dont know what to say
they nailed the ambience so well with the piano its just so good
Once awhile ago
ah
melatonin turns me into a philosopher my bad
Ima forget by the morning
13 gives me the same vibes as Do You Remember? from Omori
just encapsulated emotions
not good not bad not anything just emotions
did u beat clamidy
its kind of just that type of ambience
So good background music
been pretty busy
if youre playing a cozy game or an indie rpg with important undertones yes
or honestly just playing it to bed
Or speedrunning 
dont have to repeat it or anything just lay there looking at the ceiling for those five minutes while 13 plays and think of things
This was so unfunny
So sit there deppresed
Physically impossible
SS now ranks #1 on global Steam wishlists… TC have a massive pressure on their shoulders.
maybe you have some bad memories but you can still make light of them you just kind of choose the path of despising said memories or understanding things happen and to live life not thinking of the bad things and the past but the good that has happened and everything that you will do beyond, its like a sense of peace and purpose as you hear each chord of the piano connect with the ambience of the crackle of the ambience perfectly as you finally rest your head thinking even if you were to never wake up at least you are at peace
Isn't the first time and yeah they do but for other reasons
Bring back Party Animals
They will always be number 1
kid named the day before
@weary tapir
it's happened several times over the past few years
is this in the game it looks like it is
TC what they’re cooking … Do they want the best metroidvania ever ?
It's an edit of a sprite afaik
it was trailing behind elden ring, and party animals, and uh
ah i see
there was a sequel to some game
I hear they’re aiming for second
I hope they don’t seek for perfection .
i hope they seek perfection, if it has one flaw we nuke them
Don’t let perfection be the enemy of silk
While there is nine sols? Doubt it
i pray for their souls
nine mids
anyways tl:dr the song brings about peace that depending on the person can maybe think back upon bad times and not regret they happened but just feeling an equality in your heart about said times and can think about future things good and bad
does nine sols have any lore
very much so
Ok simon
Yes allot of it
pog
Me when I don't read what you sent:
Imo its one of the best
i should grab it
feed the addiction for a while
Its amazing just a bit short
how long playtime urs
Crawl Back gives me a feeling of hope, especially in times when i dont feel amazing, maybe its the name giving a sense in a way of "crawling back to something", that something being better times and thoughts of good and bad which then brings you back to 13
Nine Sols is a masterpiece for Sekiro like not for metroidvania world.
that's fine, i guess
Hop on good music
Provided to YouTube by NexTone Inc.
キミの記憶 -Reload- · Azumi Takahashi · ATLUS Sound Team · ATLUS GAME MUSIC · 小森成雄 · 目黒将司 · ATLUS Sound Team
Persona 3 Reload Original Soundtrack
Released on: 2024-04-24
Auto-generated by YouTube.
anyways such a good album listen to Once in a Long, Long While... its a literal masterpiece i will now let the melatonin overtake my brain and pass out
One playthrough might take like 20 hours or so
erm i am you said OIALLW was good so
Haven't play sekiro and its still a amazing metroidvanua
Black myth players now … the number is crazy
i played Lies of P, people say that's like sekiro
SSS tier portrait
I want to but no money is an issue
Yeah OAJNUGN was aight
well its hard to say Once in a Long, Long While... everytime i speak about Once in a Long, Long While...
not hard but annoying sometimes
fair
How?
but the album is an artists masterpiece im pretty sure its Ryan Karazija's magnum opus in a way
thats insane numbers for $80 game
RIP to him btw he genuinely made possibly one of the most perfect ambient albums to this day
he died at the age of 40 from pneumonia it was very sad to hear about
i like to think that Once in a Long, Long While... is like a part of him. like in a way hes still on earth just not actually there, living on in his music and especially Death Stranding where most of the album is located in
anyways monologue is getting to deep sleep time
gn
wukong vs mickey mouse
No way its goku
Inflation
same way evey new blockbuster movie breaks a record
Like at all? You don't even eat ro drink water?
oshi no kringe
I don't actually
And since this is the same guy who did Love is War I trust that he did it for a reason
||Apparently the main guy kisses his sister||
Idk the context around the scene though

I aint like that
You can't say the anime is good with shit like that,,,,,,
Well all I know is that it happens
heya everyone
Hi gwnj 
corn 
My arms are gonna be so big
I forgot I bought a protein shake
The drip always on point
her eyes... tumorous
wombat :D
:gwnj:
kirb 
Really interesting episode this week
All about the dynamic between two of the best actors in the anime so far
L, not interested
gn kirb sleep well
Also got my good arm workout in
And walked like 9 miles today so good leg exercise too
is she from oshi no ko or whatever the anime name is i forgot how to spell
??
Really surprised at how good season 2 looks since season 1 was only a year ago
:3
gn sonia dream of pop
When I say so
corn is SO eepy gn
Hewwo
I have school I can't sleep
It already has a season2?
Gn
Kirby
should have stay on campus smh
I don't have a campus
I don't think I will...
what
we need to become THE silksong
Dude I just went to a meet n greet to chat with some dormates, I have a plan about talking about the robotics competition I went to worlds for and the guy beside Casually Brings up the fact that he graduated Harvard and is getting a medical technology degree.... What the fuck.
Damn
At god damn stanford
Who the fuck gets their medical technology degree at Stanford
You can’t be too mad at them tho
ik tons of harvard students so yeah
Unless you were talking about how you went to that robotics competition and they just bought it up because of that
Just bad luck ig
I was just shocked that this guy is in the same dorm as me.
steal his brain or something
Real
its a worlds competition so you gonna get some smart tarties
That protein shake was filling I shouldn't have drank it in like 3 minutes
What’s the anime?
that one
This one
Oh yeah this media room at my uni has the DVD of Eizouken
They didn't do Eizouken I was just reminded of it
Oh neat
I want to burn this fox I dunno why
bitch think she tails
Canonically, can I kill hornet?
Yes
difficulty?
Nah she’d beat you up
Nah, I'd lose
anyone got black myth wukong
no $
Yeah I’d lose vs nah I’d win
So silksong is most wishlisted now
Saving up the bucks for silksong
I want it
Had to do some illegal underground activities in order to get money to buy silksong 😈😈👿👿👿👿👿👿👿😈😈😈😈
kirb can u generate a steam key for that game so i can use it thanks
Silksong most wanted
GJ04DL5539🤬🤬🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️‼️‼️‼️
#meme #indianmeme #myanmar #comedy
how about 2 hour train ride instead
I'm more wanted the silksong
Personal favorite was silksong carbon
God no
Tis a shame that the most wishlisted game is another day before
Give me two seconds
Kirby is my main in ssbu
This is not the ocean there is a carpet
kirby 😄
in the house like carpet
though i dont use kriby in smash
i main phoenix wright
i main the tetris t block
Tetris time baby lets go
Music: South (In-Game Version)
Composer: Kawai Sprite
Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/637714058421993493/817627457183023114/South_In-Game_Version.zip
Platform: PC
Please read the channel description.
What
What
yessirr
i love the gegagedigedagedago rips
ayoo
what
its ok kirbstar
im not out to get you

nah, our side will win
Woah
Havent heard that in years…
Ttaco said that last month
Shark perception of time is different
stop what
Stoping her from pushing the Button
What happens when you push the button?
The building gets set on fire
I’d punish the button
Free publicity
You’re an idol?
Just more publicity
It’ll help your brand
I'm not but I will be

I was speaking to the idol
Not like
Ok never mind ig
My genius is wasted on your feeble consciousness
This game is so good
OSHI NO KO REFERENCE WTFF
Bloodborne
Midborne
is it
Don't doxx me...
its Melbourne
but like
close enough
Melbourne is basically yharnam
do NOT visit Melbourne
fucking horrifying place
why

nandos chickn
bad i think
Do you think it will be worth it?
Worth what?
the wait
If now we riot/j
what are you guys most excited about
I can’t wait for silksong to release tomorrow
hmm yes very real info
I asked leth he told me it was true
I dont follow the community who is Leth
Good question
I worked with Team cherry, they're a FRAUD
Alright bucko
I have the recipts where they participated in illegal lotteries of silksong and broke the OSHA laws
nothing is worth it
nothing is worth the cost
i worked with hakita and hes developing fraud
I like your pfp
thank you my clock head is pretty crazy
Shrue
I worked with hakita, he's a SOCIOPATH (he made ultrakill)
and the expose video is from underthemayo
So true
yeah the guy that fixed the style meter 
No they're cooking so carefully that communicating with anybody would throw off the delicate balance of development
I’m a team cherry
kirb doesnt know about the bi weekly screenshot Saturdays that the ultrakill game twitter is doing laugh at him
team cherry when they have to talk to a persion irl (IMPOSSIBLE)(GONE WRONG)(RADIENCE AWOKE)(#WOKESONG)
nvm im fucking dumb
#wokesong
No but silksong is much more complex and uhhh fuck ultra
So true
If I see ari or something I'm preparing the hardest interview questions
Cant railcoin in silksong can you
Isn't wokesong a alarm clock?
Where tf silksong
Why silksong no here
What progress have you made in the past 6 months
Get the homies to get flash photography to up the tension
They released
i made ultrakill woke we have ferrywoman, lebiathan, sisyphus pronouns, minos and gaybriel
Each character typed on a blog or social media is 6 months delay, they are sparing us from more delays
When will you makw transmasc mindflayer
A spit in the face from team cherry again
Whar
Huh
Yes, war
"War has changed"
"but also hasn't"
when heavens council allows gender affirming care
They’re not able to do that anymore I think

yeah gaybriel killed them all and gave everyone lgbtq rights
hes just based like that
Based

@coral prawn
@sage glade
@carmine island

Typo omg
hello kjrib
Kibbstart ggp omf
bonjour muffin
The only place they know to spit
Kirbredgiant
toastiania
So true?
Mayhaps
bnuuy
Which are you
I choose the bear
look at all these guys :3
ive had 2 dreams about silksong now 😭
I dream of BLANK
credit the damn artist 😡
Cuties
They don't need credit , they're doing it for passion
ok
Yippee
You already said that
Hi going insane
here the artisthttps://twitter.com/alleesaur
She/Her | OC brainrot | Really shy sorry | pfp by @SillyDogJoe | Fan of both spooky and sweet
oh also don't take that the wrong way i'm not actually colon rage emoji colon
True
why did you ask me to credit the artist and then do it yourself not even a minute later?
typically when i use that it's not serious i feel mild annoyance at best
making it easier on you
im gonna take it as you being rude and horrible :3
me christening you with artist link
Artists on X? Elon fans
I love deadneaminf twitter
did you do any more norm art?
You love who?
yeah i made him give birth
sfw but to be safe
Oops
HE GAVE BIRTH ALONE?
All birth
where is his partner?
i expected it
Who tf is this norm guy
die
Psy ops
I expected ym
It’s cloning yeah
i'm telling you the father is mr birchum
Normal picture
A shadow under the streetlamp
who the fuck is bitchem
Another republican show protag
hank hill but with ben shapiro
You guys republican?
there are no republican shows only normal ones and woke ones -trump maybe
One of us
gabriel ultrakill :0
no im an anarcho-transhumanist basically im the guy from every spy movie that says im in after hacking into the mainframe
but also has the chaotic neutral alignment from dungeons and dragons
With the cybernuke
are u hacker
Jerma...
Nyet
5
4
No!
Beeeeeeep
🔥
We're making it out of the basement
catacombs time baby
flooded caves😔
Just shity downpour
What are you planing 😟
plague?
Hey gang
Ss is never releasing.
Ismoil wont be happy about this
I got the among us last night
i shoulda devolved it
I'm seeing sussy people everywhere
the symptoms scared them
I mix the blue and red to get purple so that I can sus the people out
@quartz cave
Jjk reference 
you should name the virus among us brainrot
i will wipe out humanity 😇


no but like seriously, what the hell did they do to delay the game over a year with no news in sight 😭😭

its been like a year and 3 months since leth announced the delay of the game with no news other than "yo we working on it" in like february
It takes time to make a game
Wrong
Nuh uh
Yuh huh
I am never wrong iirc
There's a first time for everything
I disagree
it will come out
some day
why the fuck iis there a bell next to my message
😴

my pings sleeping
Chat I'm playing Hollow Knight Silksong how do I beat Lace 5
What's a bell
not true we had news recently
Team Cherry have been enjoying a nice time in Japan
Blasphemy they should work 26 hours a day that’s a proof Silksong is cancelled
Team cherry have time to go to Japan but they can't provide a release date, 5 trailers and a 10,000 word apology for the lack of communication
god these guys are worse than microsoft
Is this what they've been doing the whole time?
stop whining
gn pear
maybe
Heehoheehoohah ha Silksong Hornet Silksong Silksong Silksong Hollow Knight Silksong
@grand ferry Simon I need a Nuzlocke naming theme
o lvl subjects
I don't think there are enough of those...
irony
historical world leaders\
[ ]
Booooring
I'm just gonna do anything
Booooring
No u
i know you are but what am i
real
theres like over 40 no?
What did she do😨
you shall know in TEAM CHERRY'S: HOLLOW KNIGHT™️: SILKSONG™️
she had a terrible nickname like you
Can't wait
Chat because the braid remake sold like ass it now has a 75% discount 
Rippa ban this guy
what the hell is a flog
It originally had a 50% discount if you owned the original game btw 
A horse
Eh close enough i guess
Any silkers in chat
@coral prawn @proud gulch @barren fulcrum @vast wolf @shadow oracle @atomic night

Floggy alt*5 is a new one
Woah pear I'm getting zal to ban you for that
Random ping smap
I pinged one person wdym
Yes one person 😔✊
calyrex shadow rider
this gif is agonizing to watch
Did you know if every English person could kill 123 people, they could wipe out the entire world
A scary thought...
awesome
heya everyone
you got a couple people left to fill the quota then
hi gwnj
ast and cha0s 
hi ttaco
The Knight has seen Vessels (They stay hollow)
Get fake
What if we recorded a scream
raid the english
And sorted the audio file to the volume
ive been hearing screaming all day
sorry kirb that was me in your walls
Why are you screaming in kirbs walls?
emu
cause i saw emu and gone too excited
Ooooh
omg its its is that GWNJ ⁉️
kaang 
how is you 
well wbu
I'm cold chat
im well except for the part where ive been stuck trying to figure out why my code isnt working until i decided to sleep at 6 am and wake up and its due to a very simple mistake
bro
ohh its ok
yes i have this same exact experience
fucker how are you up at 0850
Sleeping helps you find mistakes
That's why you need to sleep all day
eyes open
Thats a normal time to be awake no?
no its not if you have not slept the night before
🤔
your sleep schedule is the antithesis to kirb's
Yeaaaaaah....
this song perfeclty captures my mental state for silskongiiop
silksong is the friends we made along the way
glados song
Silksong shall be everyone's friend
No I hate silksong
Damnit
JOKES ON YOU I DONT HAVE ANYY
I had a dream there was silksong news but I ignored them
I can't tell what that means
Common sense
Also I don't have friends as well
Everyone below me will turn into Hornet Silksong
How tall are you?
Top 100%
Thats not....
Hop on Warframe chat
😭
3.6 cubits
Hop on Walmart
The roblox game?
Nah
Hop on Toilet Tower Defense
Me
hey guys
Ill create a staircase of bodies so high I can climb on it and shoot down god with 42 arrowhead
I will do every secondary and main missions before fighting you
Also, life is an rpg
Who tf balanced life
I really enjoy the life meta (Crypto)
they needa nerf the silksong loading screen time
huh
Life having no qol features
Thats enough i think
TRUE
like why the hell is the running speed so slow??
Life has really good QoL depending on the country you live in
Its pay2live
i misread that into SQL Dependency Injection
Not fair if you ask me
skill issue i think
All my fellas
Is that your fella?
He is a fella
"i used to rule the world..."
LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
no spam

Oh no
raise your glass and fill it every night
hey guys
Speaking of skill issue
Simon I'm contemplating beating Hades with god mode on simply because I just want to beat the game but I suck at it
thats not silksong news though thazs just confirmation that theyre alive
is this normal for the silksong community??? just a sign of life from them is huge news?
Roca Roja recruits watching a Belkan prototype, Osean F-15, a moth-balled Erusean MiG-21 and a markless X-02S appear out of fucking nowhere to duke it out
yes and no, last time they got real news they had a meltdown later that day like toddlers on the candy isle
you were talking about how silksong is taking way too long, game development isn't easy, it takes a lot of time
especially for such a large game that's being made by an indie studio
I do have to admit that my statement telling you to stop whining was rather harsh
i was talking about how we havent heard anything since the delay or why it was delayed
game could take 5 more years but if we got some more insight id be happy to lol
they said they'd give us more news on the game when it's closer to completion
I mean the why seems pretty simple
game wasn't done yet
It's frustrating that they went totally radio silent, especially since they didn't really say anything when it now seems like they decided to change their communication strategy
although honestly, I doubt it was a concious choice
anyway, they're not talking, and there's not really much to do about it, so I don't think it's worth getting involved on either side of the argument
I still think the game's gonna deliver, that's enough for me
it seemed close to completion with the whole xbox and 12 months thing, its been 2 years since that
i really just want to know if theyre still adding more content
or just polishing the game at this point
maaaan i wish team cherry had newsletters like deltarune
really at this point the best thing they can do it keep quiet
Yep and when it does I'm expecting Hawaii dancer bugs in it
any indication of a stage of development is gonna create MASSIVE expectations
I hope team cherry can handle pressure
check this shit out https://www.teamcherry.com.au/blog/2016-the-year-of-hollow-knight
it's whatever to do this when you have 2 thousand backers who care about your project
but I don't think they wanna risk saying something so definitively with the attention they have now
i think theyre making it worse by being quiet tbh
sure, in 2022, when they were allegedly reached out to by xbox, they could have deconfirmed the hard 1 year deadline, but I do think they wanted to be be finished by that point
obviously it didn't work out 
it is explicitly the case that they thought they would be finished
eh theyre kinda in a catch 22 at this point
damned if you do, damned if you dont, damned if you dont build a whip banner bro that disarms barbarian chosen or ancient honor guards
hi
so basically what youre saying is
silksong tomorrow???
yeah
People are just used to corporate release cycles where games get a hard deadline and crunch to finish as much as possible
how did I not realize I misspelled spaghetti
Spaghetto
True
Silksong will perform worse than this at launch


