hk-lore

[ruby lotus]

What a wonderful way to misunderstand me completely

[timber snow]

this is assuming PK was the one to train PV in nail combat

[ruby lotus]

It's entirely possible it was one of the great knights

[scenic surge]

we were talking about the speels senris

nobody is suggesting he wielded a blade

[scenic surge]

yeah it is very likely that dryaa taught it to weild a blade

But we aren't talking about the pale kings blade skills

but offencive magical prowess

[loud crater]

While yes this can be true, at the same time the best teachers most often are very skilled at what they teach.

[scenic surge]

there is not a single fence teacher that isn't good at fencing themselves

[ruby lotus]

Just look at the Snail Shamans, they teach TK spells that they themselves never could cast (the void versions of each spell)

[scenic surge]

unless they lost their way

and are too crippled

[scenic surge]

the snail shamans were shunned

and the pale king was not a fan of them

[ruby lotus]

||(yes i'm aware they use void spells in SS, but that's SS not HK)|| SS spoilers

[scenic surge]

literally used stole the soul from others

[loud crater]

TK doesnt learn from them, TK uses the Shaman bodies as a catalyst for Descending Dark and Shade Soul.

[scenic surge]

as stated by one of the charms

[ruby lotus]

You yet again entirely misunderstand my point of bringing it up, i'm not saying that the snail shamans taught THK, I'm demonstrating how one can show another how to do something without themselves being able to

[remote bramble]

Isnt it possible that the weavers taught pv soul spells

[scenic surge]

no

weavers only are capable of weaving

that's their entire deal

[remote bramble]

Silk skills are basically spells

[scenic surge]

they have very different principles

and the game seperates the bunch

[remote bramble]

Not really because even ||shaman crest|| buffs them implying they work similarly

[scenic surge]

yes because silk is thread soul

but that's not the same the other way around

being capable of weaving silk is a skill only the weavers and gms are capable of

and they aren't capable of using regular spells

[remote bramble]

Rune rage is just pv's focus

[ruby lotus]

We also know that to some degree the weavers and PK worked together on the SoB

[scenic surge]

they're only capable of weaving them

[scenic surge]

yeah

focusing is a soul thing

no a silk thing

and with respect a there's nothing suggesting the weavers aided in training the pure vessel

where as it's far more implied that the pale king did

given that he was literally raising it

[ruby lotus]

Irregardless, PK isn't ever shown to have any offensive capabilities, so any statements about his offensive power are purely speculative

[loud crater]

While I'm not personally a fan of it, PV's focus is quite literally just a more controlled form of Rune Rage.

[scenic surge]

even when we know he had a great prowess with soul?

[timber snow]

||while not the right reading, it’s is definitely possible to read first sinners journal as her being the first to discover how to create runes with silk, one could read that as the weavers had a hand||

[ruby lotus]

As previously said, there is a pretty big difference between casting seals and projecting the beacon, and being able to shoot soul at someone

[timber snow]

PV learned how to shoot soul daggers somehow

[loud crater]

You can be highly skilled with it but not necessarily highly skilled in another area. For example, I'm a fairly skilled freestyle swimmer but i suck at butterfly.

[scenic surge]

he literally was capable of bumping a near nigh infinite amount of soul into his own version of soul totems

and given the KINGsoul charm

he can likely generate soul

[ruby lotus]

As previously said, there is a pretty big difference between casting seals and projecting the beacon, and being able to shoot soul at someone

I feel like a broken record with how many times i have to remind you that having large amounts of soul doesn't mean you're able to use it in a manner conducive to combat

[scenic surge]

why would he be said and shown be this great soul user

that can just self generate an ininite supply

and basically have a nigh infinite of it

where as basically nobody else does

only for him to just

not do anything withi t

[ruby lotus]

He didn't "not do anything with it", he created the beacon (or it's some innate ability, we don't know), created numerous powerful seals, and created a small army of kingsmoulds

Just because he doesn't or can't use it in combat, does not mean he can't do anything with it

Like look at the moths, they were extremely skilled dream wielders, yet almost never used it for combat

[scenic surge]

"Even long departed, We feel the afterglow of the God-power that sat this throne... It lays heavy upon this kingdom.
That lingering power"

[loud crater]

Abhiker, all of Iroh's points are valid. We dont know PK was powerful with combative soul magic, all we can do is speculate he was.

[scenic surge]

godseeker states it was POWER that his power was beacon enough to bring them there

[ruby lotus]

Previously been address my guy,

it's very clearly referencing the beacon that granted sapience to the bugs, and the raw light he emitted

[timber snow]

they are referring to his beacon, it’s clearly not literal power

[ruby lotus]

I mean it is power, just not offensive power

[timber snow]

power as in influence, draw, appeal

the literal lingering magic field of sentience

[ruby lotus]

You're suggesting that the only way something can have power, is to be a capable combatant, which is just nonsensical

[scenic surge]

he's literally said to be a god so strong

[ruby lotus]

Wrong

He's said to be a god so powerful

Similar, but distinct meanings in context

[scenic surge]

"A God so strong... Yet erased so completely. How could it happen?"

you were saying

[ruby lotus]

Which follows directly after Godseeker yapping about his power with the beacon

[scenic surge]

no

that's dream nail dialogue

[ruby lotus]

It's not lol

[scenic surge]

yeah it isn't

it's exhausted dialogue

mb

[ruby lotus]

it's the fourth encounter in the PoH, then it's the exhausted dialogue

Again, strength and power do not necessarily mean combative capability

Also you have to remember it's coming from godseeker, who's just a simp for powerful attunements

[scenic surge]

actually I am curious what would make you be convinced

he had great combative capability

because often times I think it's good asking the other party such question

[ruby lotus]

You've quite literally shown nothing to actually support that

[scenic surge]

I'm aware.

[ruby lotus]

A single quote that actually references any combative capability instead of just quoting things in reference to his power over the kingdom

[scenic surge]

that's fair

[ruby lotus]

Truth of the matter is, TC pretty intentionally avoids ever addressing PK's offensive power

Maybe he happened to be obscenely powerful and could blast holes in mountains, maybe he was slow as fuck at casting spells, we have no idea

[loud crater]

I mean, hes dead as hell sooo.

I dont think we know much on the skill/power levels of the Four of the Five Great Knights, but that doesnt maan they were weak.

[ruby lotus]

I mean it's suggested that the knights were skilled combatants as a whole,

We knights defend against the physical, but a formless enemy. How to defeat such a foe?
Dung Defender, After the fight, listening a third time

[scenic surge]

Hegemol was a legend

and highly honored

so yeah I agree

[loud crater]

Well yeah, but my point was just because we dont get much information on a certain person's power level, especially if they're dead, doesnt mean they were weak.

[scenic surge]

kind of hard for somebody like him to get so much praise

without him being so grand and powerful

[ruby lotus]

We see two of them bearing weapons here, (add in white defender and that's 3 with near-explicit combative abilities)

[loud crater]

Guys hear me out, Dryaa had the ||Sawtooth Circlet||

[ruby lotus]

I wasn't arguing that PK was inherently weak, I was arguing that there was nothing to substantively assert that he was strong

[ruby lotus]

I am really curious what Ze'mer has on her back there

[loud crater]

Giant Nail. We see it in her house actually.

[ruby lotus]

It looks a bit different in her house actually

It very likely is her nail, just kinda fun to see that they aren't perfectly consistent with how it's drawn

[scenic surge]

kinda funny how hegemol is implied to be like the top 10 strongest mortal characters

[ruby lotus]

Then we just never see how he fights

[scenic surge]

Listen we'll get the scrapped pale court dlc

which yes WAs an aactual dlc planned

and we'll see hegemol punching through walls or smth

[loud crater]

We should just accept the Pale Court mod as canon

[scenic surge]

Listen team cherry said in a qna we'll get expansion on the five great knights

and some fight not related to the dream nail

I'll need to look for it in the wiki

it's still happening horf

I swear

I'm not coping

[ruby lotus]

idc about the pale court, i want the abyss expansion

[scenic surge]

hollow knight tenth anniversary

it's in less tehn a year

[young rain]

When did they say that

[scenic surge]

give me a minute

[neat kite]

abyss expansion?

[scenic surge]

"Yes for both! We've planned to explore the great knight's in a slightly different way though, not necessarily in dream!"

[young rain]

When was that

[scenic surge]

question was on great knight dream bosses

[scenic surge]

before silksong was even announnced

[young rain]

That’s a really long time ago

They prob changed their plans since then

[scenic surge]

I'm not coping

[ebon patio]

in where

i mean he looks like the strongest of the 5

[scenic surge]

Well obviously the four old hearts are stronger hten him

and so is vespa

[young rain]

Four?

Nightmare heart

[neat kite]

?

[young rain]

That’s the only one I know

[neat kite]

you meant four old hearts?

[scenic surge]

But other then that Hegemol seems to be stronger then any other mortal we've seen

Like we got soul master

[neat kite]

vespa kind of seems like old heart, they are strong and repelled infection like Karmelita did

[scenic surge]

Groal obviously loses

We got singular weavers

who aren't THAT special

the pinstresses

mantis lords

traitor lord

and all in all hegemol just seems stronger then all off them

in a respectful 1v1 obviously

combined they'd definitely beat him

[fading crane]

Radiance is always described as a light, a radiant or blazing light.
The Seer says that those of her tribe were born from a light most brighter than the essence
We even see how the Seer, in the dream, takes on a more... Mistical?

So I'd like to ask if the Radiance statue in Godhome is an approximation of the "Radiance true form"

[loud crater]

Maybe.

[fading crane]

[old sentinel]

Probably her original appearance before forming herself into a moth

(ik that in canon she invented moths btw)

[ruby lotus]

kickstarter goal

[neat kite]

oh, yeaa, i mean. we partially got that in silksong

[neat kite]

also are you atla fan?

[safe sparrow]

no, that's a higher being
the four old hearts are (sk) ||hunters, encrusted, pollen and conjoined||

[young rain]

SK stuff I assume

[safe sparrow]

i didnt realise where i was

woops

dont know why the other person brought up sk stuff then

[tulip fern]

Hello knight

[viral nimbus]

ded chat

[neat kite]

yea, that's to be expected

[fading crane]

Here!

[neat kite]

hey

[fading crane]

||Atla, the First Sinner||

[neat kite]

oh, yea i agree Alta is First Sinner, but that's Silksong stuff

[fading crane]

Oh, sorry

[neat kite]

should we more there?

[fading crane]

I'd like to, but first I want to know your opinion about this:

[fading crane]

.

[neat kite]

i read and agree with it

[fading crane]

[tiny heart]

why are there almost no ants in hallownest

when they are literally everywhere in the real world

the main reason might be because

hollow knight is a fictional game🤔

[loud crater]

Unknown but they might have been out competed by other species like spiders or the bees.

[queen frigate]

or someone got rid of them

[tiny heart]

it hurts me the fact that mantises which are a non social bug and also cannibalistic
literally owns a tribe

but ants are nonexistent

[tiny heart]

it was me...

i saved hallownest from the ants

[queen frigate]

why

[tiny heart]

they started a world war

i had to save hallownest

[queen frigate]

tuff

[loud crater]

They exist elsewhere.

[tiny heart]

no i killed them all

[loud crater]

You may have a Vessel profile, but we do not grant you the rank of lore-historian.

[sweet shell]

they r in silk song

[tiny heart]

i kept my identity secret to prevent the bugs from worshipping me

[scenic surge]

Do I get such rank sir horf

[loud crater]

Yes.

[main osprey]

does bro think he's the knight?

funny

[wheat crescent]

hello guys

[sand stump]

wassup

[wheat crescent]

good

[hybrid gull]

Y’all know the zote theory?

[crystal brook]

what zote theory

[tough jetty]

scam ⚠️

[sand stump]

woah

[buoyant chasm]

@hybrid gull Zoteboat???

[warm falcon]

Hey guys

What’s everyone doing today

Oh wait

Shoot

Wrong channel

Sorry guys

[sudden aurora]

Lol

[wispy gull]

Why didnt the pale king kill the sun

[split compass]

it was brighter than him

[wispy gull]

wasnt it starved and almost forgotten

[sweet shell]

he didn't know how

[split compass]

almost forgotten maybe, but it's not clear that this actually made her any weaker in turns of fighting ability
more so, it sealed her away from influence in the waking world

[wispy gull]

I see, why are there so many dead babies

Thousands of em

[split compass]

king and queen had a lot of them, but only planned to keep one

[sweet shell]

it was so they can pick out one of them to become the pure vessel which could hold the radiance

which is the hollow knight

but the hollow knight isn't actually pure and that's why we have to kill it

[wispy gull]

Why did he kill the rest

Or abandon them? Or did they just not survive the process?

[split compass]

many children probably just died
but the vessels were given the power of the Void, which Pale King is opposed to
he wanted to harness it with one vessel, but probably wouldn't have wanted lots of them running around

[tulip fern]

They mostly died in the abyss from the void or other hazards like spikes. Some managed to escape and were killed by nosk in deepnest, whilst others who escaped died in other places around the map. For example, there's a vessel in the first hornet arena who you get the mothwing cloak from to dash

[wispy gull]

Why did he love the stabby vessel

Also all of them seemed really loyal couldn't he build an army of them to contain the radiance for small periods

[wispy gull]

Or take them with him to the radiance in the dream realm to slay it

How did he know about the void but not about the dream nail did the moth tribe not tell him? Why? And why did he train the vessel what was the point, he wanted no will to break as in an empty mind not an unbreakable mind right

[split compass]

he wanted a single 'pure vessel' to contain the Radiance forever, and he chose a vessel that he judged to be capable
we aren't explicitly told why he allowed no other vessels, but like I said they were beings of the Void, and he was opposed to the Void
and if the other vessels were not pure vessels, they were vulnerable to the Radiance's infection and could have been turned against him

[split compass]

PK doesn't need the dream nail to enter the dream realm, he can do it himself - he never attacked the Radiance directly, which probably means couldn't have beaten her in a fight

the Void united by the Knight is the only thing that can kill her

PK might not have known exactly how the Void could be unified

or he might have been too afraid to unify it, since he was opposed to the Void

if it could kill Radiance, it could kill him

[wispy gull]

Why was he opposed to it

[wispy gull]

Oh

[split compass]

not sure - he is described as a 'light' like Radiance and the Void is darkness, so it might just be that they are natural enemies

Void is chaotic, PK likes order... pretty typical of 'light vs dark' situations

[wispy gull]

What do you mean by pure vessel

[split compass]

'pure vessel' is what PK called the vessel he chose from the Abyss, written on the tablet at the entrance to the Abyss

Our pure vessel has ascended

it became the Hollow Knight

[ruby lotus]

Or that the void could be unified

[fading crane]

Oh, yeah, the power opposed

[hot lily]

void exposure itself isn't harmful...?

[tulip fern]

It certaintly is, i mean there are also the void tendrils and things

Actually yeah idk void is very dangerous but just the void on its own isn't harmful

At least not to death

[molten coral]

He wanted a feeling less vessel so radiance couldn't spread but when he found one he acted like a father figure which created an emotion so the pure vessel failed to contain the radiance as he was not fully hollow

[hot lily]

this is not necessarily what happened

[molten coral]

True but the hollow knight did have emotions because he attacks himself to protect the ghost

[hot lily]

that's not proof or contradictory evidence

[loud crater]

It tries to kill itself.

[molten coral]

By doing so protects the knight

[loud crater]

More so it aids TK.

But mostly to try and kill itself.

[fading crane]

If the Collector captured the grubs, does that mean the grubs survived the Collector's void?

Why didn't the Collector take the grubs to his tower?

[civic python]

how could ghost contain the infection if he had a will? is it because ghost was empty before obtaining voidheart or is there another reason?

[near sequoia]

All vessels can contain the infection its just not forever

THK did it for a time too

[scenic surge]

it's going to fail

just like the hollow knight did

[civic python]

oh

pale king was stupid why didnt he just use a vessel then when it was corrupted use another one instead of throwing "failed" vessels into the abyss

or it would have something to do with the seal of binding or something like that probably

[hot lily]

because that's not how it was supposed to work

[tawny crag]

I was wondering who tf even is gorb

We have 0 backstory 0 explanation how he died

[loud crater]

Head injury.

[slim widget]

he is gorb, he says it himself

!wiki gorb

[neon kelp]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Gorb

[split compass]

yep, though Hornet ponders whether its possible, so I think PK might have also suspected

[split compass]

you'd run out of vessels eventually, and he wanted a permanent solution
WL sealed herself away so that there wouldn't be any more vessels
plus you'd have a lot of potentially vulnerable vessels running around that would be susceptible to the Radiance even without acting as her prison, that could easily go badly

[loud crater]

She did it to prevent making more children in general.

[split compass]

it was specifically so the shame of the vessels wouldn't be repeated

There is some shame I feel from my own part in the deed and this method guarantees it cease.

[gloomy prairie]

who trapped grubs and why are they not infected?

[ruby lotus]

Suspecting it might be possible, and thinking it's reasonably possible are two very different things

[split compass]

...are they?
well, whatever you want to call what Hornet was doing, I think PK might have been doing the same thing

possibly during his exile, if he was contemplating other solutions - torturing himself with 'might have beens' and so forth as he withered away in grief

[tawny crag]

Collector trapped them

[sweet shell]

@dusky gyro

[signal marlin]

yes, there is a different level of epistemic commitment. "suspecting it might be possible" is very weak and doesnt imply an event is likely/justified. "thinking its reasonably possible" is much stronger and usually indicates some meaningful plausibility

[split compass]

words, man

how do they even work

[signal marlin]

true

[nocturne fog]

what if the grub father knew the pale kign and was friends with the pale king so he taught the grubs how to resist the infection by stretching their minds by teachign them about metamorphsis

[sudden aurora]

Is elevator pass just tram pass but turned vertically

[split compass]

I knew it

[pure inlet]

A common theory suggests that Gorb really was smart (judging by his gravestone and stuff) but he was foolish or just got knocked off the cliffs by chance and lost his mind, then died trying to climb back up (“Ascend!”)

[noble tree]

Guys jusy got a question we heard that the knight is actually hollow and i heard no will to break but how can someone without will try to go for radiance to begin with is there any explanation behind this or is this just a flaw ?

[split compass]

the whole 'no mind, no will,etc.' thing is likely metaphorical
the plan was to trap the Radiance in the mind of a vessel, so PK wouldn't want a vessel that literally didn't have one
his speech is an allusion to some other idea

[noble tree]

If everything went perfectly does actually trapping the radiance work without some of the infection still leaking out ?

[split compass]

that was the idea

[noble tree]

Seems impossible according to what i have seen

Cause like no matter how many knights are going to be created you’ll never find a perfect vessel

[split compass]

many people share that view

[noble tree]

What about you what do you think ?

[split compass]

I think TK could potentially do it - White Lady says that THK was 'tarnished', but TK is 'free of blemishes' and could contain the plague
she also later says that she cannot sense TK's emotions - she cannot tell what they are thinking
I think Radiance would also be unable to perceive their mind - and since her infection requires her to read the minds of her victims and manipulate them, she'd be powerless against TK
she even calls TK 'the Empty One' at one point

[hot lily]

TK is not pure

[pure inlet]

Themes and such

[split compass]

and etc.

[noble tree]

If not then what emotion did he show during the game ?

[hot lily]

we don't know what emotions they have if any, but they clearly have some manner of attachment to Hornet as shown by Winged Nosk

[noble tree]

Actually your argument does make sense but the real question that i might ask is can radiance actually read those who have minds but can stand against the infection someone like hornet whom because of her unbreakable will she cannot be infected and the one who designs the maps as well etc ?

[split compass]

Radiance can seemingly read most minds, but the key to avoiding her infection is to resist the temptation she offers in dreams
she appeals to her victims in different ways - the Soul Master saw a cure for the infection, for example
(though this was a lie - Radiance doesn't have to offer anything true, just something her victim wants)
so Hornet and Cornifer and other bugs who avoid infection might just know enough to resist strange temptations offered in dreams

Hornet especially probably knows exactly how the Radiance operates, while the Mantis Tribe also seemingly figured out enough to resist temptation

[loud crater]

As i say, ignore the suspicious dream møŧĥ

[split compass]

trust Zote and do not dream

[noble tree]

Man no wonder why the one in crystal peaks with the shovel got infected probably radiance gave him a dream of finding the treasure he was digging for and he couldn’t resist it

[split compass]

yeah, poor myla

[noble tree]

I couldn’t kill him f*** just remembering him break my heart man

[split compass]

well, when Radiance dies the infection vanishes, so maybe there's a chance Myla will recover~!

[noble tree]

I really hope so cause its an infection you like you can kill a mother but her children are still alive im afraid its going to be the same when killing radiance

[hot lily]

the argument doesn't work because WL contradicts herself and thus doesn't actually know if TK is suitable to contain Radiance forever (it isn't)

[noble tree]

How does she contradict herself ?

[hot lily]

• she first says that TK is suitable
• she later says that if TK experiences emotions, she cannot sense them
  without a way to detect what she perceives to be flaws, she cannot make a definitive judgment

[split compass]

while I argue that her inability to perceive TK's emotions is precisely what makes them a pure vessel
i think being a 'pure vessel' isn't about literally not having a will or any emotions, but about harnessing the power of the Void - a power of magical nothingness
with the Void, beings like Radiance, WL, PK just perceive absence within them
so Rad will try and read TK's mind and just get nothing, just like WL does. hence Rad calling TK 'EMPTY ONE'

WL's words are if anything a reinforcement of her earlier assessment, as they are based on the absence of any discernable mental state in the Knight (they are free of 'instilled ideas')

[hot lily]

the main problem with that argument is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

[noble tree]

Doesn’t that collapse tho cause also the hollow knight is made the same way and almost have every component of what tk has why did radiance still broke through then just curious ?

[hot lily]

yes, all vessels were made the same way

THK was only modified after the fact, via artificially induced growth

[near sequoia]

That pulsing emptiness... Truly, it has been transformed by the revelations it found.

Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it.
The fate of our Kingdom, our Hallownest... that future belongs to you now.
Here's the full dialogue, she talks about how the the revelation of remembering its past has changed the knight, and questions whether it feels emotion, saying that "if it does" she can't sense it. Which is to say she's uncertain about its emotional state and can't actually tell

The implication being that the revelation gave her some reason to doubt her previous assessment on its purity

[split compass]

THK was selected and declared by PK to be his pure vessel
WL says they were 'tarnished by an idea instilled' - tarnished being a word that means 'to make something impure'
so I think THK was pure, and then they lost their purity, something the pale beings didn't realize could happen
by the time they realized something was wrong it was too late, and they had no other vessels in any case

[near sequoia]

THK was probably always impure you see it looking back at TK in the birthplace cutscene and White Lady says its purity was "ill judged" immediately beforehand

Themes and such indeed

[split compass]

the prevailing view is that purity means literally having no emotions, feelings, connections, will, etc. or similar, and under that view no vessel or Void entity would really qualify
my view is that its fine if a vessel had feelings etc. as long as beings like the Radiance cannot sense them and exploit them, and I think the nature of the Void is the key to this

[noble tree]

Yes i do see that with you completely but correct me if im wrong according to you you said being pure vessel isn’t about having no emotions or will if that’s the case wouldn’t THK be a pure vessel instead ?

[split compass]

I think they were initially, and then they were 'tarnished by an idea instilled' - something happened to them and they lost their purity

based on WL's claim, this 'idea instilled' is something she can perceive, and so Radiance probably could also

[noble tree]

What could be the cause of losing the purity of a vessel ? or the explanation behind it ?

[near sequoia]

I implore you, usurp the Vessel. Its supposed strength was ill-judged. It was tarnished by an idea instilled. But you. You are free of such blemishes. You could contain that thing inside.
You gotta post the full dialogue man she's saying they were wrong in saying it had the "supposed strength" because it was tarnished by an idea instilled (which is kinda ambiguous as to what it is but its presented as evidence for it being impure rather than a cause)

supposed strength being its supposed purity

[sage bronze]

none of it matters because wl later goes "oh wait I can't actually tell"

[split compass]

I think you're reading it wrong - supposed strength was the idea that purity was untarnishable

[near sequoia]

Within my roots, the weakening of the Vessel I plainly feel. Only two obvious outcomes there are from such a thing.

The first is inevitable on current course, regression, all minds relinquished to that pernicious plague.
The second I find preferable, and would seek your aid in its occurence, replacement.
I implore you, usurp the Vessel. Its supposed strength was ill-judged. It was tarnished by an idea instilled. But you. You are free of such blemishes. You could contain that thing inside.

Based on what

This literally never comes up in the dialogue she's just talking about being able to contain The Radiance

Which THK couldn't

[noble tree]

Correct if im wrong isn’t that because THK wanted the PK to be proud of him ?

Or something ?

[hot lily]

no that's fanon

we don't actually know what if anything in particular Radiance was able to exploit in their mind

[near sequoia]

It seems like void minds just might not be isolated from the dream realm or THK inherently has stuff to exploit in its mind (because its a reanimated child)

[split compass]

you're arguing that she's claiming she was wrong about purity in the first place and admitting that THK was never pure
but her next line says they were 'tarnished' - a word that means 'to make something pure impure'
it's not a term she would use for something that she thought was never pure in the first place - you can't tarnish something already tarnished
the assumption the pale beings made wasn't that THK was pure when it wasn't, it was that a pure vessel couldn't be made impure

[near sequoia]

What kinda cherry-picky definition of tarnished is that

tarnished generally just means sully, something sullied THK and that's proof that its purity was ill judged

[split compass]

so I don't know specifically (though the whole Path of Pain cutscene is, I think, the most obvious guess)
but I did notice something interesting about the Knight when you dream nail them
they don't show Essence like you normally get when dream-diving into other Void beings, including THK
no Essence, no dreams in the normal sense... almost like they have no mind to think...
I just find it an interesting bit of visual story-telling that sets TK apart from THK

[near sequoia]

its not a complex piece of dialogue

[split compass]

I admit, I did pick the second one over the first one

[hot lily]

english has no authoritative dictionary so that's not an ironclad argument

[near sequoia]

Yea THK was in fact sullied

Or stained

or its "purity" was destroyed but not that kind of purity

[split compass]

[sage bronze]

(authoritative dictionaries are a fiction in all languages)

[pure inlet]

THK was tarnished in an elden ring sense

[noble tree]

Now i see why you brought this down and i don’t see a problem actually your argument do make sense as well

[split compass]

"Ye dead that yet live!"

[pure inlet]

I don’t think a wielder is really meant to dream nail themselves so it could also just be essence doesn’t manifest in the same way

It would be strange to have your own essence radiating off of you

[near sequoia]

dream nail explicitly works on the dream realm anyway

if it works on something is a dream and is thus made of essence

[split compass]

I mean... no one actually says that it can only work on Essence
Seer merely omits mention of it working on anything else
we aren't told it can do otherwise...
and as we all know, if we aren't told something, it doesn't matter what we're being shown, just ignore what you see

[noble tree]

All i beleive which i think make sense in my opinion is that radiance need an emotional being to control and THK if you defeat him he tries to suicide which proves he has a will to die ,crying as well cause of his current state hence he he was impure however TK never have shown emotions but him trying to kill radiance proves that he has a will of his own but that’s one interpretation of many which one of them you mentioned already

[near sequoia]

its a particle effect mate

when you get void heart

[hot lily]

the big problem with his argument is that TK does have essence and can explicitly imagine things - Seer explicitly states TK imagines when using the dreamgate

[near sequoia]

it doesn't change the fact that the dream nail made out of dreams which grants you access to the dream realm is probably showing you a dream especially when its functionally identical to what dreams are in universe

[hot lily]

so his conclusion is false

[split compass]

TK: displays utterly unique visual story-telling related to the powers of Essence and Void, two critical elements of the cosmology connected with gods and powers, during one of the most pivotal and climactic moments of the game
fandom: this probably doesn't mean anything

[split compass]

imagination entails a mind
I'm not arguing (and never have) that TK doesn't have a mind
I'm arguing that having a mind doesn't entail having Essence
as shown by several instances where TK seems to lack Essence in situations where you would expect to see it if they had it
any example of TK seeming to have Essence is more plausibly attributed to the dream nail rather than TK themself (dream nail dialogue box, etc.)

[split compass]

i have a different view but that's fine - thank you for listening

[hot lily]

the phrasing of Seer's instructions as to how to create Dreamgates would not function if your conclusion was true

[pure inlet]

I mean TK absorbing the infection leaving nothing in its eyes in the other two endings is also visual storytelling we might as well just use that as evidence

I do think your theory is interesting yak

I would never discount it

[near sequoia]

yeah basically no one ever watching that cutscene went "wowza the knight has no essence!" because the "cosmology" isn't in focus

[split compass]

Yes, you're starting to see them. The connections between us and the dreams we leave behind, like prints in the dust. The time has come for you to learn how to revisit the places connected to you!
Hold the Dream Nail tight, wielder, and imagine a great gate opening before you!
The Knight uses the dream nail to leave behind a dream gate
the Knight imagines a gate while holding the dream nail tight
this requires a) the dream nail and b) imagination, two things TK possesses
nothing about these instructions entail TK having Essence - the necessary Essence and dream magic are supplied by the dream nail

[split compass]

well then they are fools, and they languish in their contemptible ignorance!

[dense sonnet]

I’m not arguing with a guy called “Let’s Larp”

[split compass]

every frame of every animation and effect must be dissected to obtain the true lore!

[pure inlet]

You weren’t invited to this table

I think the fact that TK was imprinted means it has essence in its mind

[hot lily]

it is not the nail itself which does the imagination, it is the nail's wielder

[pure inlet]

Raw void had the closest thing to an “essenceless mind” we can get to

But imprinted void creatures don’t have that

[blissful crest]

Hi guys

nvm bye guys

[pure inlet]

And we aren’t trapping rad in the void mind

Hi hi hi joker

[wicked nest]

What is this Abt???

[blissful crest]

vessel purity

[dense sonnet]

Shiver me timbers

[wicked nest]

Oh

[sage bronze]

The simplest thing possible. The point of the game is that that shit is impossible

[pure inlet]

I think thematically it’s cooler that we spew black instead of essence with the normal sound I wouldn’t want to feel like I’m fighting soul tyrant or doing some bum side quest at the most climactic moment of the game

[dense sonnet]

Get a load of this guy

[pure inlet]

So I don’t think the particle effect is representative of much

[dense sonnet]

Bro thinks he can read

[near sequoia]

it literally wouldn't matter no one was paying attention to ts 😭

[dense sonnet]

Stand proud

[pure inlet]

Who are you even talking to

[hot lily]

a pure vessel being possible would contradict the game's narrative of nothing lasting forever, via a possible counterexample

[wicked nest]

Team cherry themselves said that none of the 5 endings are THE true one because the actual lore depends on what you do in the game, so what team cherry probably intended is the same with the knights purity, if u do all the optional things and all the things that no mindless being can do then your knight isn't pure but if you only do what you have to the your a pure vessel

[dense sonnet]

This guy hasn’t played Silksong

[hot lily]

that argument doesn't work because if all choices are equally valid then TK must possess the capability to do all of the decisions in question

[pure inlet]

There’s nothing that really differentiates saving grubs or sitting by quirrel with choosing not to do them in a particular playthrough

You don’t escape the matrix and become impure by doing those things

The fact that they are possible means it always was

[wicked nest]

Only act two :(

[dense sonnet]

This isn’t evidence of impurity stop larping

[pure inlet]

What are you talking about

[sage bronze]

the knight being mindless isn't on the table regardless of playthrough choices

[dense sonnet]

Correct
But pure doesn’t mean mindless either

[hot lily]

correct, because it can use Dreamgates

[wicked nest]

Well I'm J's saying the knight could theoretically not save zote or bretta or anyone and just go straight to the hollow knight as fast as possible and if someone does that on their save file the it's evidence that the knight has no soul but if you do all the optional stuff the u have a soul

[near sequoia]

that is not the narrative I picked up on

I thought it was about toxic masculinity

[solid abyss]

true

[dense sonnet]

Agreed

[split compass]

do you think that the Knight becoming a Lord of Shades and destroying the Radiance contradicts the game's narrative theme of inevitability?
a LoS also would have saved the kingdom, even more definitively than a PV
both solutions might have worked in the past but PK lacked the requisite knowledge of the Void to make them work
and both come too late to save Hallownest now

[wicked nest]

It's relative to what you do

[noble tree]

Yes i didn’t refuse it yours also seems logical this one just resonate with how i saw it but yours still fit as well

[dense sonnet]

Finally someone with some sense around here

I think TK is pure because purity is completely arbitrary

[blissful crest]

what

[dense sonnet]

Nobody can disprove this so I win

[blissful crest]

What does that even mean

[sage bronze]

nothing just ignore it

[wicked nest]

Essence shouldn't be evidence of impurity because the knight can manipulate soul without having one so dreams should be the same

[blissful crest]

That’s not how that works

[dense sonnet]

SO true

[wicked nest]

Yuh huh

[pure inlet]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-pc-meme-lil-yachty-drake-lyl-yatchy-lil-yatchy-pc-meme-gif-6587087732613544041

[wicked nest]

Ok tell me how it works then

[dense sonnet]

You guys are doing good work here dismantling the echo chamber

[wicked nest]

I'm open minded

[dense sonnet]

Don’t listen to what these people tell you

They don’t think Lord Fool can be a Wyrm either

[hot lily]

kirb can you not

[sage bronze]

lock the channel vro

[pure inlet]

The knight is impure because Silksong proves DNM is the true ending

[blissful crest]

“They can manipulate soul without having one”
You’re conflating the spiritual definition of soul to Soul in hollow knight

[hot lily]

shut

[dense sonnet]

Lock the channel as soon as someone says something you disagree with typical lore “regular”

[solid abyss]

wait who made this guy mod again

[noble tree]

Not having souls is one thing and not having emotions is another thing

[dense sonnet]

Why don’t you go to sk lore to criticize TC’s writing instead you’re clearly not welcome here

[blissful crest]

What does this have to do with what I said

[split compass]

some people feel that if a pure vessel can exist, it would contradict the game's narrative theme of inevitable fall, since a PV would be a potential solution that would have saved Hallownest
whether you think a PV is possible, a Lord of Shades definitely is, so I was wondering if that would also present a narrative contradiction
PK had the necessary elements to create one - the Abyss, vessels, kingsoul, Void, etc., but he lacked understanding, the same thing that made his effort with a pure vessel fail

[wicked nest]

Well if hollow knight soul isn't the bugs souls actually getting sucked out them then what is it? Is it like Mana

[dense sonnet]

Bro added Kingsoul in there

[noble tree]

That’s me agreeing with you on that matter

[blissful crest]

it’s life force
A substance that animates the body

[near sequoia]

We can do that here too twtin

HK's narrative is an appeal to nature

[wicked nest]

Isn't that the definition of a soul?

[pure inlet]

PK didn’t have the Abyss it wasn’t his

[blissful crest]

no

[near sequoia]

Brumm and TK just casually trying to kill the nightmare heart cuz living forever is bad or something

[wicked nest]

I mean your soul is your life force

[dense sonnet]

He owned the land it was his

[pure inlet]

Who signed it away

[dense sonnet]

He colonized it

[blissful crest]

No, because your soul isn’t a tangible substance that can be accumulated and might not actually exist. Souls are a metaphysical concept that isn’t the same as HK’s Soul.

[wicked nest]

Ok well the night is a corpse reanimated by void, so what I said still stands if he can manipulate life force without being alive then he should be able to manipulate dreams too

Knight*

[split compass]

TK can use Soul, but they don't actually have any of their own, they take Soul from others and store it in their shell
their Shade (and void beings without shells, like Siblings & Collector, don't naturally have their own Soul)

[dense sonnet]

https://tenor.com/view/-gif-7240636

[near sequoia]

Manipulating soul is a trait of the pale king not being reanimated

[wicked nest]

Neither is magic or walking bugs or anything in hk

[near sequoia]

Hornet does it too

[sage bronze]

that's a huge false equivalence and we literally enter the knight's dream to get void heart

[blissful crest]

you’re equating two different powers and substances as if they’re the same or work on similar logic

They don’t

[dense sonnet]

Yeah but that dream doesn’t have any essence in it… its like… an essenceless dream

[near sequoia]

Soul realm

[wicked nest]

But you suck it outta bugs

[near sequoia]

Get with the times unc

[wicked nest]

So it's the same

[sage bronze]

got the whole squad laughing

[blissful crest]

are you intentionally being ignorant or trying to misrepresent my point

[pure inlet]

Is Hornet pure

[hot lily]

kirb i get you're trying to do a bit but you're probably legitimately confusing someone at this point

[dense sonnet]

Thanks I try my best

[wicked nest]

Isn't even from the void

[sage bronze]

sure why not atp

[dense sonnet]

Who cares

Game’s been out for almost a decade and the question of purity is literally irrelevant

[near sequoia]

My AI OC was funnier than ts bro

[sage bronze]

the dream nail isn't actually reading essence from hornet it's reading her spider mind

[wicked nest]

Hornet isn't a spider tho

[solid abyss]

i dont think kirb should condescend and assume people don't understand that he's joking

[dense sonnet]

Well yeah Hornet also has essenceless dreams

[wicked nest]

She's a pale being

[blissful crest]

wow, really?

[meager cairn]

She's half spider

[pure inlet]

What about my AU

[near sequoia]

Hornet has a silk mind

[dense sonnet]

Who invited this guy

[blissful crest]

man you guys are annoying

[pure inlet]

TK can’t give everyone flowers if they aren’t impure

[near sequoia]

Kinda like TK's void mind that's just what she says to the ||snail shamans||

[pure inlet]

Mostly cobwebs

[solid abyss]

no but it's funny

[dense sonnet]

By the same logic that TK has an essenceless void mind Hornet actually does have a silk mind

So do the old hearts

[near sequoia]

anytime purity is mentioned the lore regulars descend like vultures to meme on it bro

[solid abyss]

there is silk inside her mind this is true

[pure inlet]

Karmelita has a bone mind

[near sequoia]

Its just the way it is

we can't change our behaviour

[hot lily]

i'm trying not to be

[dense sonnet]

The reason we meme on it is because discussing it has become pointless

[pure inlet]

Does Karm control bones like an element or is she just using pressure plates and shit

[dense sonnet]

Purity literally doesn’t matter

[blissful crest]

I k ow

[solid abyss]

speak for yourself

[near sequoia]

Vessel gender more interesting than ts

[blissful crest]

The entire channel just is unmoderated because I don’t care about any of this anymore

[near sequoia]

We should talk about THK's gender actually

[dense sonnet]

Is that a green light to start posting Patrick gifs

[near sequoia]

Why did THK being agender go mainstream hm?

[sage bronze]

was thk even socialized enough to develop a sense of gender

[dense sonnet]

I think THK tried to imitate PK’s gender

[near sequoia]

You know my views on masculinity in HK

[sage bronze]

something something power terminal entry

[hot lily]

this isn't ultrakill 🥴

[near sequoia]

hakita when he has to add women to his game

its all men or genderless beings bro

[sage bronze]

maybe it should be

[dense sonnet]

I’m surprised there wasn’t a section of ||Red Memory|| where Hornet was playing with a baby THK and said some shit like “wait he doesn’t know you can talk”

[wicked nest]

The knight isn't related to pv?

[solid abyss]

do we know for a fact that vessels are actually mentally capable of developing a sense of gender

[pure inlet]

Plagiarism

I came up with that

[sage bronze]

no

[pure inlet]

Just like I came up with Myla’s song

[blissful crest]

tag your shit

[pure inlet]

Imagine being a midwife fan and hearing that Silksong has a ||memory sequence where a young Hornet is in Deepnest ||

[solid abyss]

like of course something sentient enough could do that without having an assigned sex but what if they are just too stupid

[sage bronze]

TC was probably not being super mindful of the distinction between sex and gender

[near sequoia]

Hell having a more interesting character in 3 books and like 3 implied mentions of it in the journal entries than any Silksong character ✌️

partly because it also relates to god's characterization but wtv

[sage bronze]

Ok but this is HK lore and HK had the pale goat

[near sequoia]

PK is good

He can be on the same tier as hell

[dense sonnet]

Maybe PK is bad

[wicked nest]

Why do people keep saying the knight is related to hornet

[sage bronze]

Because it is

[dense sonnet]

Did you play the game

[solid abyss]

good question

[near sequoia]

same father

[wicked nest]

No

[split compass]

no one knows

[wicked nest]

The knights dad was a worm

[near sequoia]

yea its the pale king for both bro

[wicked nest]

Hornets a spider

[blissful crest]

do you

[dense sonnet]

They have the same dad Hornet’s mom is a spider

[blissful crest]

not know who her dad was?

[near sequoia]

Hornet's mother was a spider her father was also the wyrm

[wicked nest]

But a different wyrm

[solid abyss]

this is exquisite medium rare ragebait

[blissful crest]

No

[sage bronze]

never argue with a hollow knight fan they do not play the game

[near sequoia]

They should be able to

[blissful crest]

PK is both of their fathers

[pure inlet]

I don’t see why not

[blissful crest]

Dawg Hornet literally calls thk “our birth cursed sibling”

[dense sonnet]

So true Hornet’s dad was the Blackwyrm

[wicked nest]

Isn't Grimm hornets dad?

They have the same head shape

[hot lily]

ok this person's baiting

[blissful crest]

POGOBROO

[sage bronze]

shhhh just watch and enjoy

[dense sonnet]

Well Grimm is a shapeshifter

[near sequoia]

he/him THK is perfectly viable canonically and I'm tired of the it/its truthers

[split compass]

||sister of the void||
so be careful with those ships man

[wicked nest]

The personal trainer wyrm

[dense sonnet]

Maybe Grimm took PK’s form

[near sequoia]

she/her is possible but it goes against the themes and such

[blissful crest]

do you deadass think grimm is zeus bro

[wicked nest]

YOUR SO RIGHT

[blissful crest]

he’s obviously hades

[dense sonnet]

I mean he can shapeshift

[pure inlet]

Lowkey Hornet doesn’t even need PK anymore now that Herrah is a Weaver

She could be Grimm’s kid

[blissful crest]

her nature wouldn’t be malleable without PK

[pure inlet]

Or NMH

[near sequoia]

BALL KNOWLEDGE ||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS7QUnsghxE||

[dense sonnet]

Good answer nephew

[wicked nest]

Grimm is the dad and that's why hornet survived the parasite, because vampires are also parasitic cuz they drink blood

So it cancels out

Like rct

[blissful crest]

grimm’s a moth though

[split compass]

herrah should have just spun hornet out of silk
what if silksong but hornet is just a big weaversong

[wicked nest]

Have you seen hornet double jump???

[dense sonnet]

This isn’t funny anymore pack it up

[blissful crest]

yeah

[wicked nest]

Moth.

[dense sonnet]

You took the joke too far and it’s gotten boring

[pure inlet]

https://tenor.com/view/keith-surprised-fire-burning-book-gif-12249856161946454462

[dense sonnet]

None of you understand humor

[blissful crest]

anyways I’m leaving

[wicked nest]

Bye papi

[sage bronze]

the bit is stale back to xenoblade

[wicked nest]

Ttyl

[blissful crest]

and blocking all of you

[wicked nest]

Dada

[blissful crest]

Don’t call me that

[near sequoia]

ultrakill lore 🥺

[wicked nest]

Papi

[pure inlet]

☹️

[near sequoia]

or glazing piranesi.

[dense sonnet]

@pure inlet what would PK’s domain expansion be called

[split compass]

blocking people has improved my experience tremendously

i can only see like half the posts in here, it's great

[sage bronze]

infinite wisdom

idk slop naming conventions

[dense sonnet]

How about Time Soul White Palace

[sage bronze]

ew

[pure inlet]

Authentic mutual colonization

[dense sonnet]

Self-Embodiment of Colonization

[pure inlet]

Couldn’t PK have infinity by just sending anything that gets close to the dream realm

If the dreamers can do it

[dense sonnet]

Yes

He probably could do that

[near sequoia]

it drains the dreamers powers

[sage bronze]

he's literally a precog

[near sequoia]

when he banished rad to the dream realm his powers were so diminished he had to shed his wyrm form and become the pk

[split compass]

lol PK sends a bunch of infected straight to Radiance
Rad: my god, is that what I've been doing to people? I belong here...

[dense sonnet]

They used the last of their powers to do it implying they were stronger in the past
The Dreamers also got their powers from PK in the first instance
PK also transported the entirety of WP there

He’s not getting drained

The guy has infinite soul and power and potential

[wicked nest]

The dreamers still have power

You consume it when you kill them

[pure inlet]

Why didn’t PK just give the dreamers little Kingsouls its sort of crazy how they’re running on fumes

[wicked nest]

Remember

[pure inlet]

Is he stupid

[near sequoia]

PK was not doing too hot after transporting WP

[dense sonnet]

He wasn’t weakened nothing implied that

He wasn’t doing too hot mentally no

[near sequoia]

Dreamers were weakened why wouldn't he be

[split compass]

PK died because he forgot to stretch properly before cutting the veil

[near sequoia]

he died immediately afterwards too

[dense sonnet]

Me when I lie

[near sequoia]

what

[dense sonnet]

We don’t know how long he spent in WP before dying but it was probably a while

Idk why you think it was immediate

[near sequoia]

you're just making stuff up

[dense sonnet]

Ok

[near sequoia]

how long it took isn't the point though

[dense sonnet]

You said he died immediately afterwards

[near sequoia]

idrc

[dense sonnet]

The circumstances of his death are entirely unrelated to the act of moving WP to the Dream expanse

Larp

[sage bronze]

This is HK lore all people do is make up bullshit

[near sequoia]

for the love of the game

[wicked nest]

Notches cost more when he put a tariff on the citadel

So he couldn't afford it

[dense sonnet]

Don’t respond to that guy he’s trolling

[wicked nest]

What I said was more entertaining then saying they weren't pale beings

[sage bronze]

Literally nobody isn’t

[dense sonnet]

I’m not bro

I never joke about PK

[sage bronze]

Uh huh

[dense sonnet]

Why didn’t PK quarantine all of the infected in the Dream expanse

No reason to seal CoT

[sage bronze]

What happened to not joking about pk that obviously wouldn’t have worked

[near sequoia]

did he even seal CoT that would make him a bum

[wicked nest]

No time and the pale palace was secret

[near sequoia]

was it

[sage bronze]

There were kind of signs

[dense sonnet]

Ha ha you got me 😐

[near sequoia]

Wanderer's Journal opening about how people from the entire world took pilgrimages to see the palace and the king

[wicked nest]

I'm pretty sure, after it got destroyed it was hidden in a dream

[solid abyss]

well that would go against the theme that nothing lasts forever

[wicked nest]

Or maybe I'm wrong

[near sequoia]

Oh do you mean like what happened to it

[dense sonnet]

The game doesn’t have themes idk what you’re on about

[wicked nest]

Yr

[near sequoia]

Silksong writes about this

maybe the people talking about how HK was about child abuse or something were right

[dense sonnet]

I mean probably

I think PK actually died to Void now

[wicked nest]

What are you on Abt the game obviously has a theme every second we're reminded on how the city ment to last forever went down by a god that was forgotten because their prayers didn't last forever

[near sequoia]

White Lady questioning if TK hates it

Well its either void or ||sharpe||

I wouldn't mind the latter

[dense sonnet]

It’s Void bruh

Like there’s no reason for Void death not to work

[solid abyss]

slop!

[near sequoia]

It'd be like tasty slop though

[solid abyss]

true

[wicked nest]

Well he was very experimental with void so it's likely he tried to use void for more power then got his innards melted or sum

[near sequoia]

||compressed|| white lady cutscene

[wicked nest]

So I wouldn't deny what the popular theory is

[split compass]

steel mama root

[dense sonnet]

“There’s no signs of Void on his corpse!” literally doesn’t matter anymore
“He’s wasn’t an idiot!” - no he’s a fool for attempting to control the Void NOBODY can control the Void and anyone who attempts to do so dies horribly we know this from several examples
“He would’ve pacified it!” - no he had no defenses against it
Also he’s evil so it’s appropriate for him to meet his end at the hands of the substance/children he exploited for his personal gain

[near sequoia]

I mean ||sharpe|| death would also be a consequence of using the void

Its also an upscale like wiping out the ancient civilization

[dense sonnet]

But nobody can command the void

[near sequoia]

||yes he just kills you if you use the void||

[dense sonnet]

No he uses the void himself

[near sequoia]

no tf

be serious bro

[split compass]

PK never died - he was reborn but his reborn form was compressed, final boss of steeLC

[dense sonnet]

I mean given we know steel masters could use void spells now there’s a nonzero chance his proboscis is a void spell

[near sequoia]

wym doesn't matter anymore bro

[dense sonnet]

Or that he’s augmented by it in some way

[near sequoia]

steel masters do not use void spells bro 🥀

larp larp larp sahur

||a guy uses a void spell and gets jumped||

[dense sonnet]

||We see several void victims in SS and none of them have the vines or wtv||

[near sequoia]

true

[dense sonnet]

Yeah that’s a spell the masters have access to bruh

It’s forbidden because it’s dangerous magic and they want to gatekeep it

They’re evil bruh

[solid abyss]

what if it is perfectly possible to command the void but nobody manages it precisely because they are murdered before they can achieve it

[dense sonnet]

Hornet is the one saying this so we should just accept her words at face value

She’s always right about things like this

[solid abyss]

but what if she is brainwashed

[wicked nest]

Or they need a lot of soul to be transferred into void or else you'll just get melted from the inside of sim

[near sequoia]

its prob from some ancient civilization arcane egg library or something

[solid abyss]

like if you walk up to a random american on the street and ask them what they think of communism

[sage bronze]

Hornet’s an idiot yadda yadda that’s a silksong convo in HK hornet knows the void can be controlled and even orchestrates it

[near sequoia]

||Sula is "tarnished" for using void it'd be weird if the masters were walking around all tarnished by an idea instilled innit||

[dense sonnet]

Hornet isn’t a random American

She’s enlightened

[solid abyss]

no she isnt

[sage bronze]

She got permanent brain damage at some point between the games

[dense sonnet]

The game wants you to think she is

A thinker

[sage bronze]

It’s meta commentary on the media literacy of hollow knight fans trust

[near sequoia]

Do I almost feel inquisitive 🧐

[solid abyss]

ok but perhaps the hidden variable of the steel assassins is just invisible to her

[near sequoia]

true lowk

[sand stump]

What's the topic?

[dense sonnet]

It’s not relevant

[near sequoia]

||I really really want sharpe to have wiped out the ancient civilization its wayyyy too tuff to pass up on||

[solid abyss]

just like how the random american may not be able to account for the cia's meddling in the governments of third world countries to prevent communism from ever succeeding

[dense sonnet]

||She says “nobody can command the void” because it’s a substance she’s familiar with and has seen only result in disaster||

[sage bronze]

Holy yap

[solid abyss]

what if she just does not know about the coups

[near sequoia]

surely

[dense sonnet]

Because she’s not a random American she’s an immortal demigod with centuries of wisdom end experience

One who also has specific experience with the substance in question

[sage bronze]

take shitslop convos to #dumpster-discussion please

[near sequoia]

bro think he joker

[dense sonnet]

Minimodding 💔

[solid abyss]

see i would bring up the fact that she fails to account for the knight

[sand stump]

Wtf is this conversation 😭

[dense sonnet]

She does account for TK

[sand stump]

Where the FUCK did Americans come into this

[sage bronze]

clearly she has brain damage

[dense sonnet]

TK is the Void it’s not a third party trying to command the Void for its own selfish ends

[solid abyss]

i mean i assume she just thinks the knight is dead

[dense sonnet]

No

[solid abyss]

right

no?

[near sequoia]

Yeah lets not go political :/ but hornet would vote for trump 100% amirite hahaha

[dense sonnet]

TK is the Void its relationship is obviously completely different to the Steel guys or the PK

[sage bronze]

how many worms did hornet have in her brain

[dense sonnet]

Holy false equivalence

[near sequoia]

and the worms ate into his brain 😔

[solid abyss]

ok but she says only a fool would attempt it

[dense sonnet]

Even in HK her dialogue pertaining to VH is all about TK accepting its Void nature

Bruh

TK gaining command of the Void wasn’t a foolish attempt it was the result of accepting its nature

[sand stump]

TK is not the Void, TK is just made of Void.
Void Heart tells us this when it tells us that it Unites the Void under the bearers will.

[dense sonnet]

No TK is the Void

[solid abyss]

you're right

[near sequoia]

BARDOON

[dense sonnet]

VH makes the distinction meaningless

Bardoon I need you now

[near sequoia]

I love Bardoon sm ♥️

[rugged comet]

Bardoon - General - Reacting to Void Heart

Ohhhmmmm... Tiny thing... It evolves beyond that Wyrm. Such union in a single being. A strength before unseen. Would it too challenge nature? It could perhaps defeat it.

@starpengu used /npcs misc name: Bardoon category: General dialogue: Reacting to Void Heart

[sand stump]

TK is not the Void bro
The Void is literally its own force

[near sequoia]

Hallowscribe is so nice thtey really need it for siolksong

[dense sonnet]

No it’s the Void read

[near sequoia]

Such union in a single being

Hrmm

Ohr Ohr Ohrmmm

[sand stump]

Brother TK is not the entirety of the Void.
Otherwise that means TK is the Collector, PV and all other Vessels/Constructs which is a blatantly false statement

[dense sonnet]

In other words someone like PK or ||Sula|| is foolish because they’re attempting to control an eldritch force beyond their comprehension
TK on the other hand is just controlling its body

[near sequoia]

Bro have you fought Radiance all the vessels literally pull up 🥀

[sand stump]

This does not mean that he is them bro

[near sequoia]

Collector js gameplay

[near sequoia]

Bardoon 😍

[dense sonnet]

Or imprinted handwavee

Doesn’t matter

[sand stump]

Collector is not just gameplay

[dense sonnet]

Regardless of which it is it’s a handwave Bardoon literally tells us it’s a single being

[near sequoia]

It's rest I'll return to, though in these times sleep oft proves uneasy.

Hehehehe get it

[sand stump]

He says UNION in a single being
Meaning it is united under one being as it says I'm Void Heart
Bardoon is not fucking saying that TK is the Void itself.

[near sequoia]

He's a funny guy

[dense sonnet]

I love how TC made it so you could smack Bardoon’s FAT ass (and he likes it)

[near sequoia]

Ohr ohr ohrmmm

[near sequoia]

it united multiple beings into a single one

[solid abyss]

well it managed to get to the point where the void is an extension of its will

[dense sonnet]

That is what union in a single being means it’s not that complicated

The void was always basically one being tbf

It was just fragmented

But that’s a separate discussion

Bardoon dialogue is explicit

[sand stump]

Alright, believe what you want to cuz I'm too tired to debate and don't intend on changing my mind because I just don't see the vision
So goodnight

[pure inlet]

Genuinely what is the point of this

Imagine if ballow made these types of noises after we pogoed on him

[near sequoia]

One prefers old messages not replied to. Is rather unsettling. Rather invasive.

[near sequoia]

true

[sage bronze]

tc ripped off yhorm or something

[tough jetty]

God of gods is tk right? not absrad

why does broken vessel dream to be stronger? Did it die in combat? To who?

[pure inlet]

God of Gods is just the name Godseeker gives to the being they see as the most powerful

[tough jetty]

who is...

[pure inlet]

Initially they think it’s Absrad but then they attune to TK at the peak

So yes it’s TK

[tough jetty]

k

[pure inlet]

Broken vessel who knows

Might have died from a mawlek might have fell and hit its head

Lost kin isn’t specifically a dream of the vessel it’s sort of just residual essence powering it up

[tough jetty]

residual essence?

can you provide a reference

[pure inlet]

“Sometimes dreams take the forms of those who have passed away”

Dream bosses are similar to warrior dreams

[tough jetty]

that's warrior graves right

[pure inlet]

But it’s the vessel’s ghost that appears

The vessel wasn’t infected in life though

It’s weird

Lost kin is a special case

The original 3 are a bit inconsistent though like Soul Tyrant has different dnd but failed champ doesn’t

[tough jetty]

dnd?

dream nail dialogue

?

[pure inlet]

Yus

[tough jetty]

i know dnd as Dungeons and Dragons and Do not Disturb please pick a new acronym lol

i'll just call it dnaild

[pure inlet]

I feel that

Some people say DN dialogue

[tough jetty]

dnail d is most efficient imo because dnail is already an accepted term and then the d is exclusive to dialogue in this acronym

less letters more distinction

[split compass]

that's actually way better

[clever oracle]

Hello grub 5

[sudden aurora]

No one answered my question this morning 😔

I asked if elevator pass is just tram pass but vertical

[humble current]

Elevator pass is a modded item 🫩

[dry patrol]

HOLA SOY NUEVO

[loud crater]

This is an English only server.

[civic python]

does the collector believe what he is doing is good?

[ruby lotus]

He doesn't really think all that much, he kinda just got imprinted on by the original collector bug

[loud crater]

Yeah. He thinks hes saving them.

[wind osprey]

Then throwing then to let them be killed

[wispy gull]

i found a bug with a beautiful voice marissa, who was she

[wind osprey]

She is singer of city of tears

[brisk mountain]

Anyone knows who is the mr mushroom?

[indigo venture]

The Herald who watches ages pass

[loud crater]

Master Herald*

I think at least.

[indigo venture]

Go on

[loud crater]

I dunno thats just his name iirc.

[tough warren]

Why are there dreamers and why should I kill them cause when I defeated the watcher crossroads became infected

[loud crater]

They're three bugs from before Hallonest fell and were all notable figures. They were chosen by the Pale King to serve as an additional layer of security of The Hollow Knight. Killing a Dreamer does not, in lore, cause the Crossroads to get infected, it just shows time passing.

You kill them to get access to the Black Egg Temple where The Hollow Knight resides in.

[tough warren]

Ohhh thank you

[loud crater]

Also in your specific case Killinh Lurian the Watcher didnt infect the Crossroads, getting Monarch Wings did.

[tough warren]

Okay thx

[spice mortar]

why do so many people in hk community think Grimm is hot

[near sequoia]

vampire archetype

[spice mortar]

but why

[loud crater]

People will find anything attractive. It just so happens that Grimm has many traits that attract many people.

[spice mortar]

o

[glacial sequoia]

[fading crane]

Yeah

We need Hallowscribe for Silksong

[timber snow]

pharscribe?

[wicked pawn]

How is the White Lady just there in the Queen’s Gardens

Shouldn’t she be exhibiting some sort of influence, like Higher Beings normally do?

[loud crater]

She purposefully is lessening herself.

Also it might be possible that the over grown plant life is due to her.

[timber snow]

queens gardens is noticeably more overgrown

and there are soul particles like everywhere

she is definitely exhibiting influence, but like horf said she’s purposely bound herself

[pure inlet]

The traitor mantises grow in a manner distinct from other infecteds

They might also be hers inadvertently

[split compass]

she tried that and didn't care for the result, so she retired somewhere nice

[loud crater]

She got a nice plot of land for an absolute steal from Unn. Only 2500 geo for the whole plot.

[noble tree]

Why is THK void version is completely different than the other vessels ?

Like the monster shape type of void thingy ?

[hot lily]

what do you mean?

[sand stump]

If you're talking about VGFocus in the Godhome ending, it is because it is the form of all the Shades united together iirc

[noble tree]

Oh i thought it was THK alone

In the godhome ending

[split compass]

no, it's not THK at all, they're the one vessel that isn't there
the monster is the Knight, with all the siblings and the Void combined

[indigo venture]

Monster is mean

[strange patio]

do shade soul and descending dark not use void? You get descending dark from the snail shamans, but when you get abyss shriek the ancestral mound snail shaman says it came from a place his kind never thought to look

[humble current]

Those spells do use void

[strange patio]

then why does the ancestral shaman note that descending dark came from a relative while abyss shriek came from a power none of his kind thought to look

[humble current]

(Silksong spoilers) ||it's told to us that the snail shamans have an 'obsession' with the void, but we don't know exactly what that entails, but those spells most definitely use void||

[signal marlin]

void is apart of them now

Strike the ground with a concentrated force of SOUL and Shadow

shade soul expands this and details that its due to TK

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.

the shamans didnt do anything to these spells to change them into void, so they wouldnt need to have been to the abyss for this

[signal marlin]

abyss shriek also adds that the snail shamans dont have the skills to distort the spells

[split compass]

the Abyss Shriek comes from a shrine built by the ancient civilization of the Abyss - the snails haven't been to the Abyss, so they don't recognize the spell the ancients created

[sharp pilot]

chat idb but me want the radiacne ending how to do that

i have not complete the game

[loud crater]

Ask in #hk-help

[sharp pilot]

sure and ok

[river sierra]

What exactly is Zote?

[split compass]

just some common bug

with delusions of grandeur

[low quarry]

What exactly are shadow gates and who has placed them?

-# and mainly, for what purpose?

[river sierra]

I imagine for the one in Gardens it was placed to protect the queen along with Dryya? But in general I'd imagine they were placed under PK's orders to protect certain areas outside of just gameplay purposes
Just my guess though

[river sierra]

It's just weird that he resembles a vessel so much

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Broken Vessel

Description:
Shattered corpse, reanimated by infected parasites.

Hunter's notes:
The shape of this creature... I have seen something like it before. More than once, perhaps. It looks a little like the bugs of Hallownest, but not quite the same. Where did these empty little wanderers come from?

Dream Nail:
(Broken Vessel & Lost Kin)
...

@theplasma used /journal name: Broken Vessel

[remote bramble]

Vessels look like normal bugs

Thats why zote looks like one

[river sierra]

How does that entry imply that?

[low quarry]

The list:
. in Canyon
. in Birthplace
. near Shadow Cloak
. alt. qg entrance, near wraiths
. at Markoth
. at Garpede hj entry
. before Traitor Lord
-# I've probably missed something.
Something voidy has placed them, and they're really steel-coloured.

The Markoth one seems weird imo

[river sierra]

Is Jinn canon?

[low quarry]

Just put it there as a pun about the steel guys

[river sierra]

Ah

[river sierra]

Yeah I have no idea why there would be a shade gate where Markoth died

[low quarry]

Maybe he was curious and managed to get past it, but got very damaged. Died to wounds.

[noble tree]

Why do they say that in some endings THK survives when he becomes a void entity can someone please explain it to me ?

[low quarry]

-# And it's a border to kingdom's exit, perhaps?

[idle ether]

I'm curious if the Hollow Knight would ever appear again somewhere, I mean he encountered Hornet in one of the endings of HK, right? Why would Team Cherry just put that out there

[river sierra]

He shows up in ETV and DNM right?

Or just DNM

All of the vessels return to the void

[noble tree]

Godhome as well i guess

[low quarry]

You mean in the cutscene, or when beating up Radiance?

[noble tree]

What about him doesn’t he return to the void as well ?

[river sierra]

Without Silksong spoilers idk how much I can say on my thoughts about it

[noble tree]

Well i know about silksong ending my question is doesn’t THK becomîng a void entity means he is dead ? Its the weirdest part

[idle ether]

I guess you could hide the message for everyone that didn't play it yet

[noble tree]

Sorry i meant TK not THK

[noble tree]

I mean when beating up radiance

They say that TK survive but i don’t get it

[low quarry]

Then no, its not implicitly shown in etv that they are one with the Lord

[noble tree]

So he doesn’t survive ?

TK is dead ?

[low quarry]

I think I didn't check your main question...
No, not dead. They just went to the Abyss.

[noble tree]

Oh so becoming a void creature doesn’t mean dying ?

[idle ether]

I thought that means that he rests like his other siblings that were in the abyss. That he is nothing more than a shade now.

[noble tree]

That make sense

[noble tree]

And another question why when i go to the abyss the other voids attack me when im just a void vessel like them until i get the void heart am i not already a void person just like them ?

[idle ether]

I think the charm has the power to bend the void under its will? Or unify it in some sense, making it not hostile to the bearer.

[low quarry]

They don't see that you're like them
-# if I understand it correctly.
It's somewhere stated that the void attacks aimlessly until unified.

[noble tree]

That make much more sense thank you hunter i’ll complete your journal later

[split compass]

the knight's shell sets them apart, until they get the Void Heart

[sweet shell]

who is Nola?

cloth says smth about her after he dies

[signal marlin]

someone that cloth knows. theres not much info

[sweet shell]

oh ok

[low quarry]

like how Sly mentions Esmy

[loud crater]

Its their gay lover trust

[signal marlin]

[plain mountain]

Hello

[shadow pier]

Is the nightmare king an ideal Grimm vessel, the nightmare heart materialized in dream realm to create nkg, or something else

[indigo venture]

NKG is just Grimm's Dream

[shadow pier]

But isn’t Grimm like a vessel for the nightmare heart? Last time I checked he was just nightmare heart bug form. How could he dream?

[indigo venture]

He is the Avatar of TNH

Why would that prevent him from dreaming regardless

[pure inlet]

NKG is the Heart (who controls Grimm in the waking world) summoning a Grimmlike avatar to finish the dance

[shadow pier]

Okay I did some research
So the nightmare heart uses these vessel-avatar-spawn-things to sustain its self
It creates one, has someone gather flames, and makes it stronger, in which the older spawn will die to sustain the nightmare heart, with the new one taking its place.
So Grimm is like spawn of the nightmare heart (grimmchild too) and when grimmchild is old enough Grimm will die and grimmchild will be the new troupe master
So Grimm can dream, and he does so to let you fight basically stronger Grimm
And the nightmare heart lives inside the current troupe masters mind (sleeping in the tent) just for this very reason (gaining more flame to keep the ritual going)
Is that right?

[indigo venture]

TNH I think iirc is just Grimm's Heart

Grimm acts like a flame which gets devoured by Grimmchild after the Ritual

[shadow pier]

And then the next Grimmchild will devour that one to continue the ritual?

[indigo venture]

Yes

After Grimmchild devours the previous Grimm, Grimmchild will eventually mature and take lead of the Troupe

Then find another decaying kingdom and repeat the ritual

[shadow pier]

And as long as at least 1 ‘grimm’ exists, tnh sustains itself?

[indigo venture]

As long as the ritual keeps going TNH can sustain itself yes

[shadow pier]

And the flame gathering is to make grimmchild strong enough to use grimm as a torch? Or is that just the natural next step after becoming stronger

@indigo venture

[indigo venture]

Yes?

[shadow pier]

This

[indigo venture]

The Flame Gathering is to sustain TNH