hk-lore

[leaden mirage]

Yes

[gusty swift]

After beating her

[scenic surge]

the game states it does not have a mind

it is said to not have a will

[gusty swift]

Wrong reply

[scenic surge]

No earlier on

it literally is stated to have a will by jinn

at whatever point you want to meet them

[gusty swift]

That’s cool

[scenic surge]

and not having a will is a very big requirement for being a pure vessel

[scenic surge]

(get it pure vessel)

[gusty swift]

So he woke up and decided he wants to kill everything

[leaden mirage]

Ye maybe like u be with hornet

[scenic surge]

no?

[leaden mirage]

But since it's flawed it has feelings and a will

[gusty swift]

Once I beat this game I want to play the hornet game

[scenic surge]

When did I say that

[gusty swift]

I saw some cool stuff

[gusty swift]

I mean he has a will, and he beats up stuff

[scenic surge]

the void

not the knight

[gusty swift]

That mean he does it because he wants to

[leaden mirage]

Then paky silksong

[gusty swift]

I’m not even 10% done with hk

[leaden mirage]

Oh dam

[scenic surge]

the void has no mind, will

identity

[gusty swift]

I should look up WHY knight

[scenic surge]

it's said to not have a lord

[gusty swift]

Keeps beating up bosses

[scenic surge]

not to be a power

[leaden mirage]

Then PLS DO HK BEFORE OR SILKSONG WILL BE ROUGH💔🥀

[scenic surge]

"They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself."

[gusty swift]

I’m not gonna play ss until I beat p5

[scenic surge]

as an og hollow knight fan

[gusty swift]

I just like the fact hornet feels things

[leaden mirage]

Yea stay determined

[gusty swift]

And her journals are fun to read

[scenic surge]

who's been in this community for years I approve this message

[leaden mirage]

yea ALOT of thing.......

[scenic surge]

she mated with a bunch of guys canonically

[gusty swift]

Imagine if knight also wrote about the things he encounters

[gusty swift]

I know

[scenic surge]

and theoretically women too

[gusty swift]

She outlived them all

[scenic surge]

theoretically

[gusty swift]

And she’s sad about it or something

[scenic surge]

Like She very well might be bisexual who knows

every other higher being we've meet have been straight

and the weavers have been to

but hey maybe she's the exception

we will probably never know

[gusty swift]

Imagine if knight wrote about the shit ITS done

I wanna see what knight is up to

[leaden mirage]

He's just upto violence 💔🥀

[gusty swift]

Imagine you find his journal in ss or something and all it’s written it’s stuff he’s killed 🥀

Atleast hornet finds things “cute”

He probably doesn’t

[leaden mirage]

Then it's technically not HIS journal it's the hunters journal

[scenic surge]

it likes elder bug and grubs

so that's something

well at least the grubs like it

[leaden mirage]

Elder big?

[scenic surge]

given that two charms were formed from the sheer appreciation the grubs had towards the knight freeing them

[gusty swift]

Isn’t elder bug the equivalent of their nan

[scenic surge]

old stag is the equivalent of a top notch well written grandpa character

miss hexed since you aren't close to finishing hollow knight

do yourself the favour of talking to old stag

in every potential stag station

over the span of the game

he tells you a lot about the game

and you're supposed to grow attatched to him by interacting with him in such a way

[gusty swift]

Atleast the platforming isn’t hard at all for me

God bless Celeste

I’m gonna finish the game fast I hope

[scenic surge]

do path of pain

and white palace

[gusty swift]

I really wanna get there

From what I see on yt it looks like the average Celeste map at higher levels

[scenic surge]

don't you wanna see your dads depression formed into buzzsaws because dream realm magic

[leaden mirage]

U haven't been to white palace right?

[leaden mirage]

Ye pretty much

[leaden mirage]

MORE BUZZSAWS

[gusty swift]

If it don’t got 10 million pixel perfect pogos in a row it’s not hard enough!!!!

[leaden mirage]

Ya 🙂

[leaden mirage]

So uh...what brand is your microwave

[vernal root]

You got this buddy

Dw about the flag

[leaden mirage]

Ye bro ty🥀💔 ik

[gusty swift]

Mental issues

[humble isle]

Did I hear “saws”

[viral nimbus]

how do i convince my dad to stop buying bugsaws?

[loud crater]

That's the neat part, we dont.

[bitter olive]

Fr 🫠

Path of pain ❌ Pain in Ahh ✅

[leaden mirage]

😭😭

[leaden mirage]

U cant

[split compass]

the Void is described as absence (darkness, silence, etc.), I think this is because it's perceived as such, but it's not literally nothing, we know it has some kind of mental capacity

it has an aversion to light, it's reactively hostile to approaching Soul, and it has some kind of subtle and insidious mental influence

it compels the Abyss Lighthouse keeper to shut the lighthouse down, for one:

"My King. I'm sorry... The sea calls..."

the Void is said to be 'without unity' - I think that rather than literally having no mind or will, it's more like it has a huge soup of disparate mind and will that only comes together when it's forced to - the lighthouse of the Abyss, the singular will of TK, etc.

[scenic surge]

there's literally a thing saying it has no will or mind

by the ancient civilization lost yak

"...No will... No self... "

"Fragments of void taking the shape of sharp, thrashing tendrils."

it's fragments of void just taking shape of thrashing tendrils

""Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself.""

[scenic surge]

well yeah the void poisoning is a thing

[split compass]

yes, these statements come from NPCs - they are stating what they perceive, which isn't always necessarily literal
the same ancients also describe it as seeking - "We higher, who see you seeking."

I think Void is normally imperceptible to beings, this is why it gives the impression of absence, emptiness, etc.

WL can sense the emptiness of the Void in TK, but can't sense their emotions

[scenic surge]

........you're telling me that all of these statements about it's origin

is wrong

every single one

the pale kings, the ancient civilizations, lemms, the meta narration from the hunter's journal

all just wrong about void

somehow

[split compass]

not exactly wrong, I just don't think all of the statements about Void related to absence are meant to be understood literally
PK also describes the Void as a 'power opposed' to him, and addressed it as if it were a being

"VOID, yours is the power opposed. But yours is potential, eternity potential etc."
There's no reason to think he was unaware of the Void's capacities. He wanted to harness it.

[scenic surge]

because he's power is soul

the void is the darkness

the two are complete contrasts

[scenic surge]

lost yak that's no

[leaden mirage]

Tuff debate

[fading crane]

We know exactly which insects acquired intelligence thanks to the Wyrm?

[scenic surge]

the ancient civilization literally states no will no self

idk what more you want

as evidence

[scenic surge]

most of the ones that weren't already existing tribes

so say your sentries

or your husk bullies

or leaping husks

[split compass]

sure, but that doesn't address my point - PK speaks in florid terms and addresses the Void as if it were another being
is the Void therefore literally another being? or is the PK speaking in metaphorical terms?
when the ancients describe the Void as seeking, are they being literal? Does the Void literally seek, and therefore has a mind? Or is it literally mindless, and therefore can't literally seek?

[fading crane]

🤔

I don't understand

[split compass]

most regular Hallownest bugs, like the ones that became husks, are the ones granted minds

[fading crane]

Oh, that

[split compass]

tribes that were already there, like mantis tribe, didn't need it

[scenic surge]

that was what I was trying to say yes

[split compass]

then you were right

[fading crane]

The Void definitely has the ability to act and be, but it cannot focus.

[scenic surge]

the game has a huge emphasis on the void being emptiness

and not having a mind or will

[scenic surge]

the void tendrils are literally said by the meta narrator

on the top (not hunter)

to just be fragments of void

that took shape as thrashing tendrils

not that they are a alive

not that they have a mind

just void taking some shape

and the void is said by SEVERAL sources to be the quite literal darkness

emptiness

[fading crane]

I agree, but how does nothing manage to do what it does? How they call, how they attack?

[scenic surge]

this game doesn't go by irl logic it's fiction

[split compass]

i agree that this is what they are, but this description doesn't invalidate my point
the tendrils form in response to the approach of other beings, presumably their Soul
the Void senses it, and the tendrils form
what is the Void sensing it with, to react in this way?
if not something like a mind, even if it is very different, perhaps unrecognizable as one?

[split compass]

i mean... it's not literally nothing... it has a substance that you can interact with

it's a kind of magical darkness stuff

[scenic surge]

it is called the very darkness

emptiness

the thing that devours everything

the exact opposite of soul

and mind you soul is what gives everything life

[fading crane]

liquid nothing
—Hornet

[split compass]

so not literally 'no thing'

but some thing

i 100% agree that it's some kind of weird eldritch anti-force in the world

i've described it as having 'life without Soul', since it acts as its own kind of 'other' lifeforce

i just think it's this quality that gives it the impression of absence, emptiness, etc. rather than it being literally these things

[scenic surge]

quite literally the only void lifeforms were made by the pale king

and the ones in silksongs abyss possess soul

[scenic surge]

who canonically is just really impressive

[scenic surge]

it is literally stated to not posses a self

or a will

[split compass]

I mean to say that the Void itself reacts with its tendrils, it shows qualities of life (movement, hunger) but it doesn't contain its own Soul
but also yes, the Shades and other Void beings (Summoned Savior) move and attack but also contain no Soul

[scenic surge]

summoned saviour isn't alive

it's mindless void tendrils

stated to just possess shells

and moving around mindlessly

thrashing around

[split compass]

I agree in the sense that 'alive' means 'contains Soul'

[scenic surge]

and that was because of sula

[scenic surge]

the vessels were made by the pale king

also what other void beings

the shades of the vessels don't contain soul yes

but they are a very specific situation

the entire point is that what the pale king did is something quite special

[split compass]

yes, vessels store Soul in their shells, but the Void that animates them lacks it

Void masses also don't yield Soul/Silk, similar to the Shades

[scenic surge]

silk coated by void

literally silk is made out of soul

"Fine thread spun from the soul of its creator"

[split compass]

yes, presumably the Void has consumed it all

also Collector gives no Soul when you beat on them - without a shell it can't store Soul like vessels, kingsmolds, etc.

[scenic surge]

they got animated by the pale king

come on lost yak

I already said pale king

is responcible

that's not exactly the nature of void

it's something the pale king did

[split compass]

I agree? I don't understand what your objection is
the Void lacks Soul naturally, while having the ability to animate beings as a kind of alternate lifeforce
'life without Soul', is how I describe that

[scenic surge]

idk anymore honestly

[split compass]

i don't think we really disagree on much, just what terms to describe the Void's capacities with

[scenic surge]

this entire debate has kind of derailed

[split compass]

classic hk-lore

[loud crater]

<@&283547423706447872>

[candid leaf]

Is it true that the "cape" of the Knight is actually his wings ?

[leaden mirage]

Maybe

[rough condor]

its a teory but the game doesnt tell us a lot so we cant realy know

[candid leaf]

I heard someone saying it so now I just ask myself the question.

[leaden mirage]

According to the wind guy

[loud crater]

Its biological extensions.

Might be. Might not be.

[candid leaf]

The guy I heard says that when the Knight use the monarch wings we can see his "cape" transforming into wings

[loud crater]

First off TK isnt a "he" second off its a cloak not a cape.

[drifting kindle]

Does hornet silk his song

[loud crater]

No.

Fuck off.

[candid leaf]

So I have to call TK a "it" ? And sorry for saying the wrong thing

[loud crater]

Yes.

[candid leaf]

Ok, thank you

[faint steeple]

or they

its just genderless

[orchid dirge]

most likely

since all of the vessels seem to have been born with them

[tough jetty]

what is the wilds beyond in which they speak the pale king's name with reverence and regret

wastelands?

who has beef with him besides radiance

[loud crater]

The wasteland beyond Hallownest.

[loud crater]

No one as far as we know.

[long seal]

I'd say the people who warshipped the radience prior to the pale king?

[tough jetty]

but that wasn't in wilds beyond

[long seal]

like the moth people

[tough jetty]

that was in the same area

[long seal]

maybe there is more of them lol

[tough jetty]

Hallownest

[long seal]

He came from those wilds no? so perhaps he made some enemys

being a higher being and all

[tough jetty]

Pk didn't come from hallownest

[long seal]

i meant the wilds beyond

i know he didn't come from hallow nest

i don't know all that much about the lore lol

sorry

[charred hull]

does anyone know the lore of the masks?

[safe prairie]

maskmaker dialogue perchance

[charred hull]

aah

i see

[hot lily]

moths didn't have any issues with PK and were made by Rad

in fact it's the Moths' betrayal that caused the Infection in the first place

[loud crater]

Basically the exact opposite. They willing turned to worship him.

[surreal rose]

Why doesn't the radiance just not accept the knight's duel? Is she stupid?

[brisk venture]

Radiance is an egotistical bitch ofcourse she would accept her mortal enemy challenging her

[ebon patio]

she thought she'd win

[split compass]

TK: "Don't make me come up there!"

[acoustic nexus]

lmao accurate

[trail harbor]

who is the big shade guy that looks like hollow knight that is helping me beat the radiance in dream no more?

[ebon patio]

it in fact is the hollow knight

[trail harbor]

but isnt it controled by the radiance?

steady body my beloved

[ebon patio]

radiance was too focused on the knight ig

[split compass]

not completely, they still have a bit of control left - it's why they stop fighting and stab themselves sometimes

[split compass]

[loud crater]

Only its body was. Its shade wasnt.

[scenic surge]

horf hear me out

GUN

[loud crater]

What about GUN?

[scenic surge]

GUN against radiance equals die

[loud crater]

[vivid mesa]

why does the dream realm exist in hallownest

[scenic surge]

it's not a hallownest specific thing

[indigo venture]

Dreams binds all

[loud crater]

Its more or less a byproduct of having a mind. It also exists in the Desolate Wastes, Pharloom and everywhere else with living things.

[scenic surge]

the seer states it herself

[vivid mesa]

so everyone can access the dreams

[scenic surge]

it's two different planes

[loud crater]

Sorta.

[scenic surge]

well no

[scenic surge]

I mean not in the type of way the pale king can

or radiance/nightmare heart

the dream nail is the vail to the waking world and dream realm

as stated by seer

[loud crater]

Everyone can dream but not everyone can enter the Realm.

[loud crater]

It can piecre it.

[scenic surge]

yeah that's what I meant

[scenic surge]

or leave it

cause there are dream realm specific beings too

[scenic surge]

yk kinda sucks that the pale king wasn't the prophecised wielder for it

would have been nice if he just had it in general

[frail musk]

basicly, if you have watched the sand man theres something called the dreaming not every one can enter it i htink

think

if anyone can then im wrong

[vale island]

Can someone please explain the hierarchy of gods to me? And why are pale beings ranked the highest

[whole arrow]

pale beings is ranked the highest?

also i dont think there is a hierarchy though

im pretty sure their just gods

or “higher beings

[vale island]

I have always heard there being a hierarchy

[near sequoia]

Pale Beings seem to just be soul related higher beings

Kinda hard to have a hierarchy when they all do very different things, in terms of combat Lord of Shades seems to be the strongest though

[loud crater]

Basically all we know is that Lord of Shades/Shade Lord is the strongest probably followed by Radiance/Pale King with Unn, White Lady and Nightmare Heart seemingly tied at the bottom.

[whole arrow]

oh

power system huh?

ok i should have known

[vale island]

Unn on par with radiance?

[whole arrow]

who

[vale island]

The god who made greenpath

[whole arrow]

nope

there are infected bugs in greenpath and queens gardens already

one of the places are even infected

[vale island]

That has no link to this though Radiances infection could also infect pale king's nation, and pale king's influenced and overtook radiance when he showed up

[loud crater]

Gods of Thunder and Rain are at the very bottom and ||GMS is beneath PK and Radiance but above Unn probably.||

[whole arrow]

we dont even know the power of both gods

[loud crater]

They're dead.

[whole arrow]

ok

valid

but i think we’re talking about the state of power when their alive

[vale island]

Not power just transcendence and control over the dream world

[whole arrow]

dream world?

[vale island]

Or dream realm in general

[whole arrow]

Unn’s probably at the bottom then

i dont think unn can influence dream realm

maybe only pale king and radiance are the sorts i know off

[vale island]

Unn made green path from the dreams

All gods can influence the dream realm

It just varies

[whole arrow]

your mentioning influence

in the dreamworld

not in hallownest

[vale island]

Creating greenpath from the dreamworld and bringing it to reality

[whole arrow]

i think dream realm and dreams are different in general

[vale island]

Prove it

[whole arrow]

the radiance boss fight

if it were a dream it wouldnt exist

but somehow you kill the radiance

already proves dream realm and dreams are different

infact if they are the same

then that uh

poopy guy

dung defender

would have died in his dreams

because we defeated him in the dreams

[vale island]

We didn't kill white defender

We just defeated him

Or bested him

[whole arrow]

that is why it is a dream

[vale island]

That makes no sense

[whole arrow]

im pretty sure he exploded

[vale island]

No he didn't

[whole arrow]

ok but besides that

how abt the radiance

[near sequoia]

what?

[vale island]

Radiance exists only in the dream realm

Her body is in the dream

So she can only die in the dream

If a being is killed in the dream, you effectively kill their concept from the world or their formless existence

Pale king couldn't kill the radiance because there was no way to reach the radiances formless existence without the dream nail

And moth tribe refused to give it to him

[whole arrow]

how did he enter the knighst dream without dream nail

[near sequoia]

He could probably enter the dream realm through his own magic

White Palace and all that

[vale island]

Yeah

[near sequoia]

But you need void heart to kill Rad

[whole arrow]

plus in steel mode you die in the dream bossfight with rad

but survive and wake up in any other fight

[vale island]

Ye because radiance can make her dreams into reality

[whole arrow]

except white palace

[near sequoia]

Reading into steel soul deaths is kinda bizarre idk why that would have lore implications

[vale island]

She is the god of dreams

[whole arrow]

steel mode is more canonical though

[vale island]

So if she kills you, you do die in reality

Does that make sense?

[near sequoia]

Even if that were true it wouldn't really change what I said

[whole arrow]

kkk

[whole arrow]

ok so pale king made the white palace with his own kagic

magic

but its in the dream realm

and you can die there right

if its in the dream realm and radiance is the god of dreams why couldnt the radiance just yk

take down the place?

[scenic surge]

the pale king created his own sub space in the dream realm

comprised of his essence

and transported the real white palace into that said area in the dream realm alongside himself

he has his own essence and has some genuinely impressive capabilities

[scenic surge]

how would she

[scenic surge]

being capable of accessing and using dream magic and the dream realm

isn't the same as being capable of going where ever you please in it

the pale king had incredibly powerful dream magic yes

and he used that said magic to create a specific sub area of the dream realm to his own liking with his essence

and I suppose just went to be depressed in that said location in the dream realm that he created

and transported his entire palace into

[fading crane]

We don't know if the Pale King can create solid structures like his palace with his powers

[trail harbor]

i want to send an image but I cant and its killing me

[trim trellis]

you can sloiler tag it

[tough jetty]

why did pk try if he had foresight

shouldn't he have known from the start

“Pale Wyrm... What good to foresee a demise unavoidable?”

[loud crater]

It wasnt total foresight.

He could only see so far.

[loud crater]

Also hindsight.

[tough jetty]

do we know how far?

[loud crater]

No. But he could see the Vessel Project work for a very long time, but not see it fail.

[tough jetty]

ah

btw has anybody made a version of this that's slightly more pleasant on the eye

[near sequoia]

There's a document in the pinned messages about the vessels which has this

[tough jetty]

nice

[near sequoia]

'Kinglight' refers to the Pale King, 'Growth-in-kind-flow-allthink-enfield" would refer to his mind expanding beacon. "Oldlight-em-essence" and the following is basically the Radiance and the Infection

PK expands minds whereas Radiance reduces them

"Themkin" possibly referring to them both being lights, PK described Rad as his "blazing kin"

[split compass]

but they definitely can't both be pale beings

[neat kite]

yea, Radiance might be pale but White Lady and Pale King seem to be contrasted by their pale coloration/light compared to Radiance's Blazing/Radiant Light

[strange patio]

Does the radiance have a physical form or does it only exist in dreams

[brisk venture]

Only the dream realm

The mutations you see due to the infection is the radiance attempting to come into the real world

[scenic surge]

dream realm

[empty mesa]

wait are all bosses gods? because in the hall of gods or smthn every boss is described as a god

[pure inlet]

God is basically just a word Godseekers use to describe beings with “resonance” who they get power from watching us fight

For the purpose of the game those are the bosses

“Higher beings” are closer to actual gods in universe

[clear canopy]

Hi

[tidal junco]

Hi @clear canopy

[loud crater]

According to GodSeekers, yes. The only two bosses that are actually Gods, in our sense of the word, are NKG(technically) and Radiance.

Oh and Zote the Mighty of course

[scenic surge]

tottally

[scenic surge]

we have a statue of a random bug bully

in the hall of gods

I still wanna know what kind of deed that random husk bully committed to get a spot in the half of gods

[loud crater]

Pretty sure there also Vengeflies in there.

Which just makes GodSeeker calling TK a cringer even funnier.

[scenic surge]

there is in fact a random vengefly in there

[scenic surge]

apparently a random vengefly is a god

but the knight isn't worthy of the title

freaking godseeker man

[loud crater]

"This kingdom is blessed with true Gods. True! All around, the corpses of pretender Gods. But! Not in Hallownest..."

[white canopy]

Does the godseeker see everyone as a god or something

[fading crane]

Radiance is not pale

[fading crane]

Not all

[white canopy]

The realm has every boss tho

[loud crater]

Their term "god" is separate from our term "god"

[fading crane]

God is a being with Godly Resonance
The Godseeker wants to find Higher Beings, the actual gods

However, finding one isn't easy given the state of the kingdom, so you must use inferior beings (the game's bosses) to reach them.

I think there are two posibles reasons why the Godseeker calls the bosses "god".

1. The word god is used as a synonym for goat

2. All the bosses in the game are associated with a HB, so the Godseeker uses them to reach the true gods (the Higher Beings)

Are you familiar with Minecraft? We can use a parallel to understand the Godseeker

What is the most difficult and valuable mineral to find? The diamond.

What do we have available? Wood, stone, etc.

Using common materials, we can increase the probability of finding a valuable and rare mineral like a diamond.

The Godseeker works the same way.

[hot lily]

point 2 is false

[fading crane]

Not all?

[neat kite]

Radiance has been suggested to be pale

[fading crane]

If there's one thing most Pale Beings have in common, it's that they are referred to as such.

Vespa names the kings pale beings, Hornet is called Pale Beast, etc

But Radiance is never described as pale; they always use words that allude to something radiant or blazing.

[rugged comet]

Lore Tablet: White Palace - White Palace Throne Room

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark.
The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.

@nostor_10. used /lore-tablets area: White Palace name: White Palace Throne Room

Moss Prophet - Alive - Moss Prophet First Encounter

Oooohhh radiant being, we are blessed. Your rays touch us. Your warmth fills us.
Hallownest is born again, united in your blazing image. Oohhh...

@nostor_10. used /npcs misc name: Moss Prophet category: Alive dialogue: Moss Prophet First Encounter

[neat kite]

i guess, but i feel like that's only because of the fact that Pale King and Radiance were enemies so team cherry decided to contrast them

[rugged comet]

Moss Prophet - Alive - Moss Prophet Exhausted dialogue

Light is life, beaming, pure, brilliant. To stifle that light is to suppress nature.
Nature suppressed distorts, plagues us. Embrace light! Achieve union! Oohh..Ahhh.

@nostor_10. used /npcs misc name: Moss Prophet category: Alive dialogue: Moss Prophet Exhausted dialogue

Moss Prophet - Alive - Moss Prophet Dream Nailed

...Blinding...Rising...Never be empty...

@nostor_10. used /npcs misc name: Moss Prophet category: Alive dialogue: Moss Prophet Dream Nailed

Moss Prophet - Dead - Moss Prophet Dream Nailed Corpse

...Blazing...Bright...

@nostor_10. used /npcs misc name: Moss Prophet category: Dead dialogue: Moss Prophet Dream Nailed Corpse

[fading crane]

@neat kite Never is called as pale

[neat kite]

i am aware, i pointed out as what could be the reason

[fading crane]

Yeah, I see

[neat kite]

Pale Lurker, Palestag, Pale Rosary and Pale Lake are referred to as pale but it doesn't mean much, they are refereed to because of different reasons

[hot lily]

there's a difference between merely looking the color and having the quality of being...a pale being

[scenic surge]

gotta just say it I think if she was a pale being she would be referred to as such

even if it was a single time

I get what you're trying to say nika

[neat kite]

!

[scenic surge]

and Obviously I'm not going to argue it's impossible

[scenic surge]

I am literally replying to the message

you are trying to highlight towads me

[fading crane]

Exactly!

[scenic surge]

and that isn't a good argument as that just even more leans to the fact she isn't a pale being

because they wanted to contrast her as one not simillar to him

[neat kite]

she existed in Dream World so, there was no way for bugs to note her Pale-ness, also there would have been no logical reason for Pale King and White Lady to admit that Radiance is Pale Being either

[scenic surge]

nika now don't get offended by this feels like rather poor reasoning

[neat kite]

personally, i don't think she absolutely is pale being, but theory is getting popular and i believe it has some merit to it

[scenic surge]

and as cope I'm not saying this to insult you or demean you in anyway

[loud crater]

All Pale Beings have a distinct white glow to them and seem to have Soul powers. The Radiance has neither. Her glow is more a warm color iirc.

[fading crane]

Because she isn't

[fading crane]

Exactly

[scenic surge]

yo horf

[loud crater]

Yo.

[scenic surge]

grubheart

[fading crane]

All Pale Higher Beings control soul, but Radiance, on the other hand, controls essence (fragments of light)

[neat kite]

White Lady's glow is more of Pinkish?

[loud crater]

Also Radiance is a more off an color white than pure white, which is another quality all Pale Beings have.

[loud crater]

Huh.

[scenic surge]

???

[fading crane]

It similar to the whispering roots...

[neat kite]

Dream Warriors have soul though even though they are made from essence, including Markoth which was created by Radiance's Light

[fading crane]

🤔

[scenic surge]

what??

[neat kite]

yea, it kind of is

[fading crane]

They remain different elements
They are quite related, but it's not the same thing.

[scenic surge]

oh wait I think I read that wrong

[neat kite]

Seer says they were born from light, light brighter than essence

[scenic surge]

Sorry I read that wrong

[scenic surge]

I thought you were talking about the dream ghosts

but then I realized you were only referring to the moths

who were spawned from her light

[neat kite]

you aren't sure of something and you freely accuse me of making things up, you are better than this abhiker

[scenic surge]

mb I read that wrong

[neat kite]

yea but soul powers are vague and vary, Everbloom doesn't have strong association with soul, Palestag's association with soul is not stated

[neat kite]

!

[timber snow]

i’m hella late, but using the power of my eyes
i think Rad is pretty yellow and not white

[fading crane]

I understand the Palestag thing, but Everbloom definitely has to do with the soul

[scenic surge]

she's not said or implied to be a pale being that's the issue

[neat kite]

yup, more yellow than lemon!

[neat kite]

?

[loud crater]

Palestag isn't even a Pale Being. They're a light mint color snd are only touched pale I belive.

[scenic surge]

that is said yet

they were touched by some divinity

[timber snow]

she’s a yellowish white
thst is not white, or pale ig
compare her to WL and PK
she’s off white at best

[fading crane]

Pale light, protect to the Void...

[scenic surge]

"Here, the trail of the stag touched pale...""

[timber snow]

her legs are the whitest part on her

[loud crater]

She's around the same color as a Pharlid i belive. Lemme check.

[neat kite]

okay soul is eated by void yet, soul-related pale flower repels void? that weakens soul connection

[scenic surge]

her color tones aren't really anywhere close to the pale white the pale beings usually possess

[fading crane]

Weakness, yes, but it's

[neat kite]

Pale Beings seem to vary, though

[fading crane]

?

[timber snow]

not really in color

[loud crater]

Not exactly but damn close regardless.

[scenic surge]

I mean the pale king has a light simillar to the everbloom

[loud crater]

[scenic surge]

and he's a pale being

related to soul

[scenic surge]

isn't that a piece of evidence?

[fading crane]

Plus: ||Groal call soul 'pale flame'||

[scenic surge]

besides it's got a pale description

[scenic surge]

well yes

[neat kite]

he can use soul, but original point was about how Everbloom is soul-related, other than being pale, that's not stated, so it is weak connection

[loud crater]

Only White Lady has an off color. But even then thats only in her current state. In GodHome and ||Red Memory|| Shes Hella white.

[fading crane]

I keep wondering why that pinkish-white color

[neat kite]

in Godhome White Lady has pink hue, if we could ||Palestag||, Pale Being rules break altogether

[fading crane]

Are whispering roots related to WL?

[scenic surge]

no

no

[neat kite]

they aren't really stated to be

[loud crater]

Her body itself is like pure white.

[scenic surge]

they are said to be completely seperate

[fading crane]

[neat kite]

didn't you say off-white?

[fading crane]

Well, I tried

[neat kite]

said to be completely separate? ?

[loud crater]

I only ever called Radiance an off white color.

[scenic surge]

"Essence can be found wherever dreams take root.
Have you seen them? Those whispering plants that grow all over this old Kingdom? I believe there is one just outside. Why not strike it with your Dream Nail, and see what happens?"

[loud crater]

Oh yeah. I forgot ig.

[neat kite]

right here

[neat kite]

it's ok

[scenic surge]

Listen if team cherry wanted the radiance to a pale being

[loud crater]

But again, thats in her current state. Her two other ones are like pure white. And her glow is far, far more pale than Radiance is.

[scenic surge]

they would have referred to her as such

[neat kite]

okay this discussion is getting out of hand

[fading crane]

I see

[honest wyvern]

White lady is white it's simple as that... and radiance is radiant ^_^

[timber snow]

Rads glow isn’t even pale

she’s genuinely yellow

[scenic surge]

Horf I may or may not have angered might hegemol by accident and am rapidly getting chased down by him so he could give me just a really nice pep talk actually given he's quite the soft spoken one

[fading crane]

Exactly, which in turn means using the correct color
😌

[loud crater]

Radiance neither looks Pale nor is called Pale. White Lady may not be the peak of Paleness, but she's actively subduring herself and we see her in another form where she is very Pale and she's called it multiple times.

[neat kite]

if you think that about everything, there is no space for speculation, Unn isn't technically stated to be higher being, neither is nightmare heart

[scenic surge]

there's a huge difference

between having a title as a pale being

[fading crane]

"Greater mind"

-_-

[scenic surge]

which is by an large something we mainly know based on title alone

[loud crater]

Radiance is never implied to be a Pale Being, while those two are very much implied to be one's.

[neat kite]

i feel like that's severe misunderstanding of my argument

[scenic surge]

I mean the nightmare heart is called the deepest power

the scarlet heart

knows of the pale king

is the ruler of the nightmare realm

while unn get's called a lot of things regarding power

[loud crater]

What is your argument then? Because from my perspective its that Radiance is a Pale Being Because she looks kinda Pale. If I'm wrong please correct me.

[scenic surge]

and then she shows up

[fading crane]

Radiance is not pale

[scenic surge]

in the higher being

pop up in pantheon 5

with her being first then white lady and then the blinding flashlight that is the pale king

or more so his damn throne room ig

[loud crater]

Well yeah I know but thats what I was picking up based on Nick's arguments.

[scenic surge]

yk what to give another conversation topic

Hegemol is pretty powerful

I know shocking

[neat kite]

also Pale Being is broadening as term, this was my argument as repeatedly presented

[fading crane]

[scenic surge]

we literally only have 3 pale beings currently wdym T_T

how is it being broadened

[scenic surge]

like horf

I know it might be shocking but I think hegemol was really powerful before yk

[neat kite]

people count hornet, palestag, even lace(i don't count lace personally)

[loud crater]

||Palestag is a sensationalized form of Verdania propaganda and isnt a Pale Being.||

[loud crater]

Hornet is pale, but not a Pale Being.

[fading crane]

*three pale Higher Beings

[scenic surge]

idk how hornet is a good example

[fading crane]

XD

[scenic surge]

when she's a daughter of the pale king

[neat kite]

lot of people disagree

[scenic surge]

pale wyrm

kinglight

dear wyrm

white king

white wyrm

wyrm

[fading crane]

God-king

[scenic surge]

you get the point

[scenic surge]

god king too yeah

[loud crater]

||Palestag didnt even exist in its current form and is likely some hyperbolized form made up from Green Prince's memories.||

[fading crane]

I love this title

[neat kite]

not all Pale Beings are higher beings, ||also Palestag's paleness would be pointless to lie about, i believe that's true part of his existence||

[scenic surge]

it's not even called a pale being

[neat kite]

but likely is still ||'stag touched pale'||

[fading crane]

'God' count?
Born of God and Void

[loud crater]

Hardly makes it Pale. Given that its not even the right color.

[scenic surge]

Nah because it refers to their bloodline

including the white lady

[fading crane]

Oh, ok

[neat kite]

it doesn't have to be, since it's not accurate form, as you stated

[scenic surge]

the palestag is touched pale

it's not a pale being

But it is still touched by paleness

alright

let's end that there

also lace is made completely out of silk

and is contributed a lot as gms daughter

so it makes sense that she'd get called in a way pale one

also none of the examples exactly help radiances case

[fading crane]

In conclusion:
Just because something is pale doesn't mean it's divine.

[neat kite]

i think it could be pale being

[honest wyvern]

It could be a higher being...

[loud crater]

Pale? Maybe. A Pale Being? No.

[neat kite]

yea, only higher being means divine

[scenic surge]

o-o no

[fading crane]

-_-

[neat kite]

could means possibilities, are you saying it is impossible for Palestag to be Pale Being?

[honest wyvern]

I guess nvm... -_-

[loud crater]

Pretty much yeah. Pale Being, to me at least, is a Pale Higher Being.

[neat kite]

how is it impossible if we haven't seen it's real form?

[loud crater]

Its a myth. A fabel.

And I feel it would be very hard to down play a Higher Being in your memory.

[neat kite]

well, current form, sure, but it existed in some capacity and it's paleness it accurate

[scenic surge]

I mean lace is called pale child rather then pale being

which makes sense

she is forever a child

actually yk what

I wonder what it would feel like having a mind and body forever locked as that of a childs

[neat kite]

i mean, dream higher beings powers can be downplayed and they can fade, they need to be sustained

[scenic surge]

..........o-o how does one downplay the radiance

have you seen the lightseeds

[loud crater]

That's different. They rely on minds to exist in. And they only weaken when forgotten.

[scenic surge]

or the noxious gas

[neat kite]

read this everyone: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16L48JpgjvIoMeCT58fB0HAB4-L9JthT2mOB-dPQsnow/edit?usp=sharing

[scenic surge]

or the damn infected terrain

or the sheer horror

[neat kite]

when they are forgotten, they fade

[scenic surge]

of everything in hallownest

[neat kite]

you are getting it, where does memories exist? mind, what's remembered is never lost, and Palestag is in lost verdania and they are mostly forgotten! what we witness is recollection, implied by Palestag's own needolin

[loud crater]

Is Palestag a dream being?

[scenic surge]

if it was the green prince wouldn't exactly be capable of hunting the majestic being

[neat kite]

memory of Palestag exists in mind, therefore it can be distorted, just like dreams can!

@scenic surge Abhiker, do you think Palestag's memory waned and was downplayed over time since it was forgotten? and it's form in lost verdania is weaker?

[loud crater]

Tell me, if you killed a God, would in your mind over the next few decades would you downplay that memory of the God's strength?

[neat kite]

i have great example of this, when dreamers banished the knight to dream realm, they sent him to forgotten dream space, where he would have been forgotten and sealed away, it can happen to radiance, it can happen to physical beings like knight but not Palestag? your reasoning is confusing

[neat kite]

you do realize details are lost, and forgetting isn't voluntary

||palestag|| in existence, it wouldn't exist in stronger form in memory because simple principle of details being lost over time, not gained

[scenic surge]

isn't the pale king been dead for a long time

and his memory has not been forgotten whatsoever

people keep talking about the man

so why would the pale stag be any different

[neat kite]

yeah, because dead can be honored to, ||citadel|| , seer both imply that actively remembering Pale King is preserving it's memory

[loud crater]

The point of it being a forgotten dream is that there's no one to sustain it. No one can sustain TK's memory in that dream.

[neat kite]

because ||Green Prince|| doesn't remember his own lover properly, his memories need to be recollected with ||hornet||'s help

[scenic surge]

doesn't hornet imply that it would have been weaker in reality

it's meant to be a individual that got touched pale

[neat kite]

and no one can sustain Palestag's memory either, because Green Prince is occupied by grief to the point where he barely remembers Verdania

[scenic surge]

and likely by that got blessed

[neat kite]

how so?

[scenic surge]

or something along those lines

not a god

pretty sure if they were a God the green prince would be dead

[neat kite]

you seem to be speculating heavily, i would like to see evidence

[neat kite]

i want evidence for this

[loud crater]

Aren't you speculating that ||Palestag|| is a whole ass Higher Being?

[scenic surge]

"Myth made real in memory. The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it. Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?"

[neat kite]

can you guys respond to points? i have substantiated it by the fact that memories are lost, GP's memories need to be recollected, something we see in game?

[neat kite]

how does that inherently imply that it was weaker in real life?

[scenic surge]

Yeah that's true, I won't deny that but to imply it's a higher being is atrocious

[loud crater]

There is nothing saying that ||Palestag|| is a Higher Being. A Higher Being doesnt just get entirely erased from existence. There'd be some form of proof of them. A statue, relics, something to point to their existence.

[scenic surge]

besides it's not called a higher being it's not called one of the ancient kind, the divine ones, of the higher caste, of the fathomless beings

Unn at least get's that type of privilage of getting called a bunch of royal mumbo jumbo and get put in the proper god mention, alongside getting mentioned a bunch in game in general where as the pale stag just exists in green princes memory that's it

Besides how tf would a mortal hunt down a higher being

[neat kite]

that doesn't answer points that i provided

[scenic surge]

I'd like to see green prince trying to hunt down the pale king or gms or unn and see what happens

[neat kite]

i mean weren't they trying to, GP has amnesia so that's irrelevant, besides Pale Being isn't high bar, look at white lady,

[loud crater]

Those points dont mean it was a fucking GOD that GMS or the Weavers just left alone for some reason.

[loud crater]

Oh so know we're down playing other Higher Beings to try and elevate this creature that isnt even naturally pale in any regard?

[scenic surge]

how tf would the green prince hunt down the white lady, she literally takes over greenpath and get's shown as some genuinely horrifying thing in godhome, also has a powerful seal she put on herself so that's something

[neat kite]

you are assuming they would wage war against god, instead of you know? pact they literally made?

[scenic surge]

what pact??

[neat kite]

with Green Prince that ended up screwing the Verdania?

[scenic surge]

by that point the palestag was dead

the green prince confidently states that them taking down the beautiful being proved them as worthy of royalty

[loud crater]

I'm also going to point out the only other two times we see a Higher Being die either involve Void or them willing giving their remaining strength. Or just giving up on living.

[scenic surge]

in verdania

[loud crater]

That The Hollow Knight.

[neat kite]

we don't know what happened to Palestag, we only see Palestag's memory

[scenic surge]

I'm telling you horf we're going to play as the hollow knight and face off against the steel masters with quirrel aiding us

[neat kite]

were they?

[scenic surge]

yes they were

[neat kite]

did you see a body? how can you know for sure?

[scenic surge]

The pale stag being killed is what apparently proved the two green princes right at rulership

[loud crater]

How do we know that anyone died? Have we seen bodies of everyone?

[fading crane]

Where says divine ones?

[scenic surge]

The green prince literally states he hunted them down with his lover wdym nika T_T

[neat kite]

this is about Palestag, we don't know for sure if they are dead

[neat kite]

that's like me saying Pinstress is dead after she leaves

[scenic surge]

They are literally said to be dead wdym

[neat kite]

where?

[scenic surge]

We literally get confirmation about the green princes past and how he became a ruler because of that T_T

By the green prince

[loud crater]

Ok at this point it feels like youre just using anything at your disposal to discredit our side. I dont mean to try and beat down on you but thats what I'm feeling and I'm just gonna leave because this is going no where.

[scenic surge]

horf please don't leave me alone against nika

it's a nightmare when that happens

[loud crater]

Leave the argument. They're just coping at this point so dont give them the time of day.

[neat kite]

hey, you didn't answer points i provided, so goodbye

[scenic surge]

fair enough horf

[loud crater]

Ok really quickly there are no feats of power, statements of power, allusions to divinity beyond "being touched pale" and the fact that they are fucking dead to connect Palestag to being a Being above all Others. When they are dead.

[neat kite]

i feel like this was cope, fact that my arguments were totally ignored despite requests, i am at natural disadvantage because i address all points and from what i seen you ignore what you guys don't like

[loud crater]

Okay give me your points then.

[neat kite]

Palestag existed in some capacity and it's paleness it accurate
i mean, dream higher beings powers can be downplayed and they can fade, they need to be sustained
when they are forgotten, they fade
you are getting it, where does memories exist? mind, what's remembered is never lost, and Palestag is in lost verdania and they are mostly forgotten! what we witness is recollection, implied by Palestag's own needolin
memory of Palestag exists in mind, therefore it can be distorted, just like dreams can!
Palestag's memory waned and was downplayed over time since it was forgotten? and it's form in lost verdania is weaker?
great example of this: when dreamers banished the knight to dream realm, they sent him to forgotten dream space, where he would have been forgotten and sealed away, it can happen to radiance, it can happen to physical beings like knight so it can happen to Palestag
details of memory are lost, and forgetting isn't voluntary
palestag in existence, it wouldn't exist in stronger form in memory because simple principle of details being lost over time, not gained
yeah, because dead can be honored to, citadel , seer both imply that actively remembering Pale King is preserving it's memory
because Green Prince doesn't remember his own lover properly, his memories need to be recollected with hornet's help
and no one can sustain Palestag's memory either, because Green Prince is occupied by grief to the point where he barely remembers Verdania.

[scenic surge]

"Here, the trail of the stag touched pale...We hunted her, felled her, as none before were able...Proof it became, of our majesty"

you were saying nika?

you're entire argument by this is what if they are stronger then what we see because memories can be distorted, it's a bad argument

[loud crater]

This implies that Palestag was actually vastly more powerful in life. When there is no proof of it.

Infact Green Prince and his lover being able to fell it at all proves it wasnt some vastly powerful creature.

[neat kite]

hey, felling has different meanings, plus that coming from unreliable narrator who is suffering amnesia and can'y even remember her

[loud crater]

What else could "felled" mean in this instance.

[scenic surge]

okay nika are we being serious

[neat kite]

why is 'as none were able' significant then?

[hot lily]

what is the topic

[loud crater]

||Is Palestag a Higher Being, so it seems.||

[scenic surge]

it is literally said in the dictionary that using the term hunted somebody and then felled them means hunted and killing tehm

[loud crater]

It just means Green Prince and his lover were either more determined to find it or just really wanted it dead.

[hot lily]

English dictionary definitions are descriptive, not prescriptive

[neat kite]

Downed

Toppled

Dropped

Levelled

Floored

Vanquished

Overthrew

Dispatched

[scenic surge]

now check the same with with hunted them before that sentence

[loud crater]

Most of these would imply death. Over throw doesnt make much sense. Floored as well.

[scenic surge]

because I did the same thing nika and whilst you are right on that when you add the word hunted them before it then the only answer is hunting and then killing them

[neat kite]

you asked for synonyms i researched for them

[scenic surge]

nika you asked for evidence, you got evidence that disproved your claim and yet YOU"RE the one trying to argue against some clear cut dialogue

[loud crater]

Your stance was that felled didnt mean killed, yet most of the synonyms imply death.

[scenic surge]

also don't say the green prince statement isn't valid when it's the entire origin of how they got recognised as majesties it's pretty important backstory for verdania

[neat kite]

"Here, the trail of the stag touched pale... We hunted her, bested her, as none before were able... Proof it became, of our majesty."

"Here, the trail of the stag touched pale... We hunted her, captured her, as none before were able... Proof it became, of our majesty."

[scenic surge]

........he never said bested her

[loud crater]

Does that not paint the picture of death?

[neat kite]

i am trying to apply non-murderous synonyms

[loud crater]

Felled and captured are, as far as this dialoge would be concerned, antonyms.

[neat kite]

i am replacing it with synonyms, keep up please

[scenic surge]

captured isn't a meaning for felled wdym nika oh my god

[loud crater]

Yeah I think its safe to say this is rather copeing.

Don't you just love it when people try to twist dialoge to fit their interpretations?

[neat kite]

In this context, felled means to bring something down or overcome it. You can "fell" a beast and then "capture" it.

[scenic surge]

nika does it all the time horf sadly T_T

this happens everytime horf ;-;

[neat kite]

didn't YOU ask for synonism i am providing? only to complain?

[scenic surge]

capturing isn't even a synonym for felled bro

[loud crater]

The synonyms almost all imply death. You are actively trying to reframe to only imply capture or incapatitation. It is very clearly meant to mean death.

[neat kite]

hoft asked me to include context

[loud crater]

When did I ask that.

Like honestly.

[neat kite]

'as far as this dialoge would be concerned' means you care about context

[scenic surge]

tomorrows wednesday so that's cool I guess, hopefully that day is rather loose for you in the education department horf

I know it's been being rather frustrating so I hope tomorrow will be a chill day for you mate

:D

[loud crater]

I'm just done.

[scenic surge]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-hug-bff-best-friend-friend-gif-9512793

have a dog hug bro

[neat kite]

If you’re going to be condescending about 'coping,' at least get the vocabulary right please. 'Felled' is literally a transitive verb for bringing something to the ground. Whether it survives the fall is literally up for interpretation, which is exactly why we're having a discussion. If you can't handle a different reading of the text without getting personal, that’s on you!

[loud crater]

Its a pretty clear interpretation that it was killed. But I'm not going to continue this pointless discussion. Bye I guess.

[neat kite]

1. ask for alternatives 2. get mad when alternative interpretation is provided, nice discussion bro bye

[neat kite]

funny how you shifted to ad hominem attacks the second you couldn't argue with the actual definition of 'felled.'

[scenic surge]

it's not an attack nika

[loud crater]

I didnt get angry. I pointed out how those synonyms would mostly still imply death.

If anything you seemed a tad heated about my critique.

[neat kite]

i remember you leaving? came back for parting shots? i only claimed that Palestag was stronger in real life that memory which is following consistent game's rules, but you guys mistook it as Pale Higher Being for some reason, and you got mad or weird about that interpretation

[neat kite]

Saying "this happens every time" and "sadly T_T" is a textbook way to discredit someone's intelligence.

[neat kite]

also, I'm being direct because you were dismissive. Calling a linguistic analysis 'cope' is literally a move to shut down a conversation, not a 'critique.'

[loud crater]

You claimed that Palestag was a Pale Being. I claimed it was impossible because at least to me Pale Being is short hand for Pale Higher Being. Instead of you saying you didnt mean Pale Higher Being, you began defending that point. I didnt misinterpret your words as it, because from what I saw you believed it was a Pale Higher being.

[loud crater]

Your analysis seems flawed. The connotation of the term "felled" almost immediately after "hunted" implies death. Most synonyms for felled you gave also would have implied death.

[neat kite]

so this whole this was misinterpretation/miscommunication? why didn't you ask for clarification? i argued for Palestag being stronger in physical world

[loud crater]

You never corrected me on this. Not to mention your whole 'dream higher being' thing painted the picture of your belief that Palestag was a Higher Being.

[neat kite]

if we are being honest, my analysis isn't flawed just because it accounts for more than one possibility. You are literally choosing the most narrow, common interpretation. I am looking at the literal meaning of the word. If the developers wanted to remove all doubt, they would have used slaughtered or slain. They chose a word that describes the act of bringing something down, which leaves the door open for what happened next!

[neat kite]

why didn't you ask for clarification?

[loud crater]

Why didnt you correct me?

[neat kite]

how would i know what you were thinking?

[loud crater]

I literally said "Pale Being, to me at least, is a Pale Higher Being."

My entire issue was the claim that Palestag was a Higher Being.

[neat kite]

okay, conversation changed a bit, right? i asked abhiker if palestag was more powerful in real life, my arguments were about how power and memories can fade and used palestag as example of it, which felt obvious to me

[loud crater]

Fuuuuuuuuuck

[loud crater]

Simplicity doesnt mean bad. Complexity isnt always necessary for these things.

[loud crater]

I thought you were trying to use that as a defense for why Palestag was so weak in the memory despite being a Higher Being.

[neat kite]

that's okay, no big deal

[neat kite]

Simplicity is absolutely fine for a surface-level read horf, but we’re discussing lore. If we only went with the simple interpretation of every word, there would be nothing to discuss. If complexity wasn't necessary, the writers would have said 'we killed her.'

[loud crater]

If I'm being fully honest here, using "the literal meaning of the word." feels more simplistic than accounting for the context the word is in. Accounting for the context of Green Prince and his lover hunting them and nobody else being able to do it before them leads me to think it was death.

[hot lily]

Pale Beings are not necessarily Higher Beings, Hornet exists

She's not an HB herself

[loud crater]

Shes pale. Pale Being, to me personally, is short hand for Pale Higher Being.

[hot lily]

it's not, because Hornet is a counterexample to your claim

[loud crater]

Its less a claim and more so personal vocabulary. Like Higher Being=God and higher being=bug with higher thought.

[neat kite]

you seem really great at lore

[neat kite]

Actually, assuming it's death just because it's a hunt is the most simplistic read possible. Exploring the idea that they subdued a divine being to justify their divine right actually accounts for the context of their ego and status. I’m not ignoring context, I’m just not using it as an excuse to ignore what the word 'felled' actually means

[loud crater]

"Felled" has always carried the connotation of "killed" to me at least. I feel if they meant it only as subdued they'd have used a slightly different word or term like "brought low" or "bested" because, at least to me, those carry less death and more subdued vibes.

It would still allow the same interpretations of either point, but would lean slightly more towards what TC meant.

In your interpretation at least.

[young rain]

What are we talking abt

[neat kite]

if that's your opinion, then let's agree to disagree, honestly i feel like we are going in circles, but i am confident in my interpretations

[loud crater]

Skong stuff. In the Hollow Knight channel goddammit.

[loud crater]

Yeah we probably should but I also feel confident in my interpretation. So let's just leave it at that ig.

[frank sand]

what do you think the white lady actually is?

[indigo venture]

A Root-like Pale Being

[proven remnant]

Quick i need a summary of HKs plot

[indigo venture]

Of what

Like the In-game events or the events prior

[proven remnant]

In game (i made a bet)

[split compass]

'bad times in bug town'

[indigo venture]

After arriving in Hallownest, The Knight (Our Playable Character) travels into the decaying kingdom after heeding a "Call". Finding Hallownest's protector, Hornet, in Greenpath and engaging with them in a fight to prove it's ability. After the fight, The Knight is suddenly 'attacked' by three mysterious bugs that insist it's purpose in Hallownest must go un-accomplished and the seals must remain

[proven remnant]

Tysm gng

[indigo venture]

That's not all of it

Wait

no

[proven remnant]

Okie

[indigo venture]

Yak help me

[split compass]

see that's the advantage of my summary

[indigo venture]

Fuck

I give up

Yak did it best

[strange patio]

Is pure vessel the mind of the hollow knight called to the ritual?

[loud crater]

Pure Vessel is THK before sealing the Radiance.

[tough jetty]

You travel to Hallownest's heart, the city in which there is a memorial to "The Hollow Knight", located in the Black Egg Temple. Hornet appears and tells you to visit the Grave in Ash which will be relevant later. After leaving the area and visiting the Resting Grounds above, which contains a lake responsible for the rain in the City, The Knight obtains a magic weapon called the Dream Nail and locations of the three "Dreamers" that attacked you in Greenpath. When The Knight visits their locations and uses the Dream Nail on them, the seals they once held locking The Hollow Knight (THK) in the temple break. After breaking all three seals The Knight is able to reunite with THK and replace him as sealer of an ancient God called "The Radiance" who once was worshipped by all bug, but was forgotten after the Pale King arrived and gave novelties like intelligence to bug, so The Radiance cast upon an infection throughout Hallownest that basically forced their minds to worship her. The Pale King (PK) was not happy about that so he sought to make a Vessel, a container for The Radiance to stop the infection from spreading. Both you and THK are vessels, and neither of you are perfect.
alright someone do TE lore im bored

[strange patio]

Yes but where does it come from

Nail masters were called to godhome

[indigo venture]

Its an attuned memory

Just like Nailsage Sly

Godseekers can just reach to Memories that linger in the Kingdom

[strange patio]

I was under the impression that all the living characters, like sly, hornet, and the nail masters were in godhome under the impression it was a dream

[tough jetty]

Thk's idea instilled was to be perfect for father, no?

[indigo venture]

Sly isn-t

[indigo venture]

Headcanon

[tough jetty]

ok

[hot lily]

headcanon, never explicitly stated

[strange patio]

Hmm

How about the nail masters

[hot lily]

and it's questionable if the "idea instilled" was what actually made them fail or not

[indigo venture]

They are

[tough jetty]

i say no

to have an idea you need a mind to think it and we will not debate about this because i hate this debate

next topic

[loud crater]

That's just WL being wrong, as per usual

[indigo venture]

Well yeah

[hot lily]

all i will say is that the vessel requirements are not necessarily literal

[tough jetty]

that's exactly why this debate sucks

pale king is dumb and therefore this debate is too

[loud crater]

Pale King isnt dumb.

[tough jetty]

ik but i wish he had told the truth 100% of the time so lore wouldn't be funky like it is

[indigo venture]

Radiance can infect things without a mind regardless, somewhat

[tough jetty]

are there any examples

[indigo venture]

The air

[loud crater]

He isnt lying, he just spoke in really cryptic and flowery language in the Abyss cutscene.

[strange patio]

Probably the infected vines too

[indigo venture]

Trying to hype up The Hollow Knight

[tough jetty]

that is dumb not him*

[loud crater]

Hes a God. Gods speak in cryptic ways.

[tough jetty]

who tf was he talkin to anyway

[strange patio]

Citizens of hollowness?

[loud crater]

The Void

[strange patio]

Hallownest

[tough jetty]

they weren't supposed to be able to hear it

[loud crater]

He was just talking to the Vessels because it felt appropriate to do.

[tough jetty]

Godseeker only talks in cryptic because she (is it a she?) is like 300 years behind on language

[indigo venture]

Yes it is a she

[tough jetty]

ok

[loud crater]

Grimm also speaks kinda weirdly iirc.

Same with Hornet to a degree.

[indigo venture]

Yk who else talks cryptically

[tough jetty]

Grimm isn't a god i think
isnt the knightmare heart one tho

[loud crater]

-# My mom!

[indigo venture]

He is the Vessel of one

[indigo venture]

darn

[loud crater]

Technically he is, but yes Nightmare Heart is a Higher Being.

[tough jetty]

godseeker god or god god

[indigo venture]

Since when is Grimm a Hb

[loud crater]

There isnt really any meaningful divide between Nightmare Heart and Grimm.

[loud crater]

God god.

[tough jetty]

how

[strange patio]

Why does the nightmare heart need grimm ritual to sustain itself

[indigo venture]

Because it needs the Ritual

[strange patio]

Who split the dream realm anyways

[indigo venture]

Unkown

[loud crater]

It controls an entire Realm.

[loud crater]

It needs Nightmare Essence to sustain itself.

[loud crater]

Nightmare Heart probably.

[tough jetty]

Btw whenever i question yalls ideas/statements i do not mean it with any mean intent i mean it as like i want an explanation so i can have a better understanding of your idea

[indigo venture]

We know

[tough jetty]

ok

[indigo venture]

Why would it be taken otherwise

This place is literally to discuss and stuff

[tough jetty]

text can be taken in many different ways as you can not hear my voice and tone

[indigo venture]

[loud crater]

For all you know I could have a very thick French accent.

[indigo venture]

I mean TNH is both Cult and Master in one

So I guess I could see Grimm being able to be considered one

[tough jetty]

mima wau révolution

[indigo venture]

I personally wouldn't

[loud crater]

Grimm himself isnt a Higher Being but hes a subset of a Higher Being and is basically indistinguishable from said Higher Being.

[split compass]

High-ish Being

[indigo venture]

So Grimm isn't a higher being but is basically one-in-the same with a Higher Being

[indigo venture]

High Being

[loud crater]

Hes a chain smoker so ig.

[indigo venture]

"Scarlet Eyes"

[tough jetty]

you beat me to the joke

[loud crater]

His eyes arent red with Nightmare Essence but instead red with Zaza.

[indigo venture]

||Garmond is devastated||

[indigo venture]

Alright I think I can agree with this consensus

[tough jetty]

what

[indigo venture]

Middle Finger?

[loud crater]

What what?

[tough jetty]

phantom discord?

i clicked on literally nothing

tf does canoe mean 😭

[loud crater]

He doesn't caknow...

[tough jetty]

?????

no i do not

please inform

[loud crater]

Ask in #hk-meme

[tough jetty]

literally just tell me

is it that hard

[loud crater]

I never really was the best at it. You'll get a better explanation there.

[tough jetty]

Does the elderbug quote "perhaps dreams aren't such great things after all" refer to Radiance or false hope (the game's inevitability theme)

[loud crater]

Probably the latter.

[tough jetty]

okay

because Dream No More meaning Radiance is No More kinda threw me off but i assumed the latter anyway

dude

you know i see that you are the one that replied with 🛶

i see the ping

"The Horf Vessel" reacted to your message: 🛶

[loud crater]

Its a different me.

There's lots of Vessels out there.

[tough jetty]

it can not be THAT hard to tell me

[loud crater]

I'm just not particularly good at explaining the back story of ir.

[tough jetty]

explain it in like 4 words to leave me optimally confused

[loud crater]

Ages past canoe react.

[tough jetty]

alright now i'm just delusional and impatient what does it mean

[ancient mountain]

I think he just likes boats

[vestal briar]

Guys how does the hunter know abt the beasties in the infected crossroads

If it’s the first time of it happening

This means that it isn’t the first time the crossroads got infected

Which makes me think that the hollow knight isn’t the first vessel

[split compass]

actually, if you look closely at his words, they aren't specifically about the infected crossroads enemies, they're more like general observations about the Infection

[signal marlin]

he doesnt know about them specifically

yak

[signal marlin]

also it isnt the first time the crossroads got infected

its already infected it just gets worse

[split compass]

yeah, he's probably seen extreme cases of the infected before

[vestal briar]

That’s what I meant

[spice mortar]

hey guys, is herrah Hornet's dad or her mom

[scenic surge]

....I thought I already proved that hornet is deemed as half higher being

how many times must I keep proving this

[signal marlin]

how did u find that

[scenic surge]

?

hornet get's referred to as of higher caste, ancient being

higher

[signal marlin]

old message

[scenic surge]

and we know when that happened they weren't referring to weavers

[scenic surge]

oh because I got pinged

to a even older message

[signal marlin]

i see

[scenic surge]

because they refer to the weavers in a whole seperate situation

Hornet isn't a higher being

but she's also not a pale being by technicality

she's HALF

pale being and half higher being

and zi states this

half... Pale It... Bug It...

[spice mortar]

so Pale king is hornets mom

[scenic surge]

??

Herrah is hornets mom

[spice mortar]

no

[scenic surge]

what

[spice mortar]

grub father showed us that females are fathers and vice versa in hallownest

bug biology in that game

[scenic surge]

what

[spice mortar]

its just a prank bro

also pale king being hornets mom is funnier

[scenic surge]

we all canonically suck at recognising jokes and pranks