hk-lore

[wind osprey]

Oooob

So the ghost we meant or we played doesnt die

But shell or body broke

[dense sonnet]

Correct

[wind osprey]

So, hornet and the void will be together?

As the hollow died

Or alive?

[dense sonnet]

The Hollow Knight dies in every ending except for Embrace the Void

Hornet survives in every ending

[wind osprey]

The void is alove but wr also saw that the shell got sealed in two way. One is with hornet, another is without hornet.

So when hornet sealed, she still alive into the egg and will stay forever?

[hot lily]

it's unclear if Sealed Siblings would work with Silksong or not

[wind osprey]

I got close to beat radience few time ago now my brain hunged

[wind osprey]

That is why my question raised. Or maybe in silksong, team showibg how hornet came to hollownest

[indigo venture]

So Shells act like containers so Shades to not lose sight of the goal they were created for?

[wind osprey]

Radience wing is similar to hollow knights cloak. Even every knights

[loud crater]

No, they're just containers for the Shade. Pale King never got any opportunity to meddle with the shells on a large scale. Assuming you're talking about Vessels.

[torn cape]

I'm going to leave this question b4 I sleep, is Vespa dead? or is she just sleeping?

[scenic surge]

dead

[indigo venture]

Dead as hell

[brisk venture]

sleeping eternally

[loud crater]

Deader than dirt.

[old sentinel]

She's a spirit when you have dream nail, safe to say she's dead

[opaque plume]

Quick question what do you think is the hardest charm to get

[loud crater]

Maybe Void Heart.

Or fully upgraded Grimmchild.

[opaque plume]

Maybe void heart

[loud crater]

Yeah but NKG is a hard ass fight. Wouldn't be shocked if its the lowest one.

[opaque plume]

But to get void heart you have to defeat traitor lord and complete white palace which is also hard and this requires dash, monarch wings and mantis claws as well as crystal heart

[pure inlet]

Unbreakable Strength I would say takes the most time if you don’t speedrun

[halcyon thistle]

Larp

[pure inlet]

Hey

You weren’t invited to this table

[loud crater]

NKG is vastly harder than Traitor Lord not to mention having to fight the Grimmkin Nightmares which arguably are harder than Traitor Lord tbh.

[opaque plume]

But let's think about it to get dash you need to fight hornet you have to go to the mantis village to get mantis claws then you need descending dark to get into crystal peaks to get crystal heart meaning you also need to fight false knight for city crest and defeat soul master for desolate dive and then defeat broken vessel and then you need to get awoken dream nail this requires you to fight dream bosses and dream warriors and dream bosses are really hard and fast and some dream warriors are annoying like no eyes and markoth

[loud crater]

You need to do most of that stuff to fight NKG as well.

[opaque plume]

Not really you just need to unlock most areas to fight grims servants you don't necessarily need some of the stuff or to defeat some of the bosses

[loud crater]

And again NKG is a very late game boss. He is like the third final boss in the Pantheon of Hallownest.

[astral stump]

||brooding mawlek|| is a bitch btw

[hot lily]

no need to spoiler

[twilit juniper]

Part of the fun is revealing who the bitch is

[opaque plume]

Hand let's face it the only thing worth doing the entire grim quest line is the epic ending cutscene after betting nkg otherwise the grim child charm isn't really useful at all

[random palm]

What happened to the hollow knight after the Embrace the Void ending?

[indigo venture]

Unknown

[random palm]

I mean assumptions

[indigo venture]

Probably dead

[meager cairn]

i mean, we see them approach Hornet, so alive for now

[loud crater]

Potentially alive.

[hot lily]

alive, nothing more

[indigo venture]

Eh I can see it crumble to dust not a long time after if it doesn't focus

Potentially alive or not, in this theorical. fact of the matter is that it's still alive as Serrara said

[random palm]

in theory, he lost the ability to think

judging by the cutscene

[loud crater]

Why would it? Also not a he.

[scenic surge]

?

the hollow knight could have not recognised hornet and thought she was a enemy that opened the black egg temple after all it didn't know what happened

[loud crater]

If it couldn't think it likely wouldn't react to much of anything.

[random palm]

He attacked his sister

[random palm]

a broken vessel attacks

[split compass]

Hornet was surprised by the appearance of the Hollow Knight and took a combat stance
THK tensed in response
cut to black
they might fight for like a little bit, but they have no reason to, so they're probably friends now
THK is wandering around back in Hallownest, wondering where Hornet disappeared to

[random palm]

I don't know what this boss is called in English, the translator will most likely translate it incorrectly.

[random palm]

Not a single vessel ever returned in its right mind after the plague, so I don't know.

[split compass]

we've never really seen what happens to anyone post plague, but THK still retained enough of itself to oppose the Radiance during the fight, so I think they'll be okay

[random palm]

broken vessel*

theoretically a nightmare can take a vessel from a pure vessel?

[loud crater]

They're being puppeted by Lightseeds. Hence the gaint glob of infection on its head.

[indigo venture]

What are you even saying

I can't understand it

[loud crater]

I think they're first language is like French or something.

[indigo venture]

Makes sense

[blissful crest]

well, no.

The nightmare heart specially makes creatures that sustain it and its immortality

I don’t believe a vessel (the species) would function for that purpose

if that’s what you’re asking

[random palm]

Well, Nightmare uses Grimm as a vessel.

[random palm]

russian

[loud crater]

Ahh.

[loud crater]

Yes but not a Vessel Vessel. Like a Vessel in a more generic sense.

[indigo venture]

Maybe if you pump a shit ton of Nightmare Essence into an empty shell

[random palm]

I just want to make a mod where the pure vessel and the nightmare will be one and the same, but I can't figure out how exactly

[blissful crest]

I mean it’s not really possible, the two serve different purposes

one is meant to jail the entity within

the other exists to propagate it

[random palm]

I just want to make a boss mod

[loud crater]

So a Pure Vessel fight where it has elements from the Nightmare King Grimm fight?

[random palm]

so that they are one whole and have attacks from both

[loud crater]

Ahhh.

I see.

[random palm]

i know about nightmare & void

[loud crater]

Feels kinda more like a #modding-discussion or #1057825333841240104 type of thing.

[random palm]

Well, I wanted to understand it from the lore's perspective.

For example, I didn't know that a nightmare is not a vessel.

[warm sedge]

Vespa is the best

[hot lily]

it's not a Vessel as in a Pale King Vessel

[alpine plume]

hey guys I recently finished HK and I have some questions

[tough jetty]

k

[alpine plume]

First of all where did white palace go?

It is stated it disappeared with the pale king

[tough jetty]

PK hid it in a protected dream to escape radiance

[alpine plume]

But once we enter the dream real we see the PK is dead

so he moved it before he died?

[tough jetty]

i assume so

[alpine plume]

now, how did he die?

for a pale being I expect him to put up a fight at least

[tough jetty]

i don't know, probably natural causes
Don't know who would want to kill him that could

[alpine plume]

Isn't he a god? How would he die of natural causes

[tough jetty]

Higher being

[indigo venture]

Suicide

Or death bry Grief/Guilt

[tough jetty]

oh really

[indigo venture]

Either are valid theories

Not like we know

[alpine plume]

He was deified

[indigo venture]

It could also just be age but like, I doubt it

[indigo venture]

?

[alpine plume]

and he is a poymorphed wyrm

[indigo venture]

Tf is poymorphed

[tough jetty]

Maybe he killed himself after THK left for the black egg, knowing he would suffer a horrible fate

[alpine plume]

polymorphed

transformed

[indigo venture]

Doubt it

It's stated that he hid AFTER the second wave, iirc

[indigo venture]

yeah, he is a Wyrm

what about it

[tough jetty]

oh ok

[alpine plume]

I mean we dont have much knowledge on the life span of higher beings but if the white lady, and the radiance were still alive wouldnt it be fair for the pale king to still be alive as well

[tough jetty]

Pale king is dead

[indigo venture]

Well he isn't alive

For one

[alpine plume]

ofc

my question is what killed him

[tough jetty]

Nah he failed pop

[indigo venture]

[tough jetty]

Probably suicide

my guess

[alpine plume]

That's just improbable

[indigo venture]

My take is Death by Grief/guilt

[indigo venture]

Well his lasts thoughts were reflecting on his "No cost too great" philosophy, implying he very much was beginning to get that the Cost was too great

It's not out of the equation nor "Improbable"

[alpine plume]

cause if he can kill a large amount of his offspring for his kingdom i dont see that kind of guy comitting suicide

[indigo venture]

Well he could because he thought he could salvage it, then his plan failed, and he was left without any straw to grab to hold onto "I can make it"

[alpine plume]

Huh? No cost too great means that whatever price he must pay to save his kingdom is worth it

[indigo venture]

His whole dream of an eternal kingdom shattered after he realized literally nothing could be done

So he ran away in shame

[indigo venture]

That was his coping mechanism, which began failing

[alpine plume]

thats a speculation

[tough jetty]

Fan theory:
He looked back at the nursery below his throne, realizing just how bad of a father he was, letting his own child and kingdom fall to ruin, all he did wrong

[indigo venture]

No?

[alpine plume]

At what moment do we see him reflect on his actions?

[indigo venture]

I mean as I said, The Pale King ran away, that's fact. His last thoughts are reflecting on his Ideas

let me get the dialogue

[alpine plume]

the white palace dissapeared with him

[rugged comet]

Pale King - General - Pale King Corpse

...No cost too great...
...

@megathekindly used /npcs misc name: Pale King category: General dialogue: Pale King Corpse

[indigo venture]

Yes?

What about it

[alpine plume]

we dont know if it was because of his will

[indigo venture]

Anyway as I was saying, His last dying thoughts were reflecting on his ideas

[indigo venture]

How else would it happen

How else would a Kingsmould accept to have it in it's mind if not ordered by Pale King

[alpine plume]

I can believe he hid, but more as an attempt to prepare

because following the story the radiance aint out yet

[indigo venture]

I mean we don't know HOW it happened, but the why is shame, and the only person that could realistically do so is PK

[indigo venture]

What

I mean They were

Radiance had already won

PK's last plan failed

Utterly

And that's why he ran away in shame

[alpine plume]

radiance was still sealed, that what the knight does which is unseal radiance

[indigo venture]

His sacrifices, dreams, the hope of his people, all died when THK failed

[indigo venture]

The Radiance IS still trapped, yes, but leaking out

[tough jetty]

sealed horribly

[indigo venture]

Which is enough to doom the Kingdom

[alpine plume]

true

[indigo venture]

Which WAS enough to doom the kingdom*

And that's why PK ran

[alpine plume]

but sealed to the point that the radiance powers truly start leaking the moment the knight starts breaking the seal

[indigo venture]

No?

[tough jetty]

is tk hollow? every in here disagrees with each other about it.

[indigo venture]

Radiance's true powers are locked regardless, until THK dies at least

[indigo venture]

No

[tough jetty]

How besides obvious game design

[indigo venture]

It is not hollow

[indigo venture]

It's stated to have a will plenty of times

[alpine plume]

which knight we talking about?

[indigo venture]

If you wanna argue "But that's with Voidheart." There is dialogue directly stating it's will before

[tough jetty]

well i wasn't listening, please elaborate

[indigo venture]

The Knight

[alpine plume]

the vessel?

[indigo venture]

That's it's name yes

The protagonist

Little Ghost

[tough jetty]

tk = mc

[indigo venture]

It's community given name is "The Knight"

Which is used often because that's what TC called it

[tough jetty]

i absolutely trust you, but can you prove it

[alpine plume]

well he shows a will by having multiple endings

[indigo venture]

Yeah

[indigo venture]

Not a "He"

[alpine plume]

it

whatevs

lets not get stuck on the pronouns of the knight

[rugged comet]

Jinn - General - Refusing trade

...It refuses to trade...? It has a will... all Its own. Can refuse. Jinn will keep waiting... until a gift comes.

@megathekindly used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Refusing trade

[indigo venture]

.

[tough jetty]

ty

[indigo venture]

This dialgoue can be obtained without Voidheart, as Jiji says "It has will"

Then there's the whole "Unifies the void under the bearer's will" Winged Nosk, yada yada

[tough jetty]

so why is tk sealing radiance good?

[indigo venture]

It isn't

[hot lily]

even if the vessel purity requirements are not meant to be read literally, TK likely isn't pure

[tough jetty]

then what was the point

[indigo venture]

It's literally just a bad ending

[alpine plume]

he can still cointain him tho

[indigo venture]

Who is "Him" In this sentence?

Radiance?

[hot lily]

not permanently

[tough jetty]

so the only good ending is etv

[alpine plume]

tk

[indigo venture]

That's the "He"

[alpine plume]

isnt the knight the unification of the void who is the nemesis of radiance?

[hot lily]

it can become the Lord of Shades

[indigo venture]

It can be seen that way, but also not

[versed drum]

The pale king is the main enemy of the radiance

[indigo venture]

Radiance's "Ancient Enemy" can both refer solely to Vessels or to The Void

[alpine plume]

so wouldnt he be able to permanently contain radiance or rather kill it

[indigo venture]

No, No

[split compass]

TK containing the Radiance forever is still a bad ending, really
they have to be a living prison for all of eternity, or until someone frees the Radiance some other way (like Godseeker)
everything wakes up

[indigo venture]

I mean Yes

If Lord of Shades yes, Radiance will be slaughtered

[alpine plume]

isnt that the true ending tho?

[indigo venture]

But TK is not capable of sealing Radiance

[alpine plume]

as shown in ss

[indigo venture]

That's Dream no More

[indigo venture]

What about Silksong

[tough jetty]

isn't true ending not true

like etv is canon

[alpine plume]

||in the end of ss in the cutscene isnt it the knight the one that takes hornet out of the abyss after defeating lost lace||

[indigo venture]

"True Ending" is just called that because that's what the community began calling it

[indigo venture]

Yes

Also spoiler tag this

[indigo venture]

All Endings are canon

[versed drum]

No

[indigo venture]

||EtV / DNM are the most likely canon to Silksong's "Sister of the Void"||

[tough jetty]

yeah sealed siblings

[indigo venture]

?

[alpine plume]

not really when there is a sequel

[split compass]

everything is canon to itself

[indigo venture]

It doesn't mean anything

Canonicity defined by TC doesn't work as with other games

[alpine plume]

how so?

[indigo venture]

As Yak said they write their story with the philosophy that everything the player does is canon in it's own right

It's all canon to itself

Not only one thing is canon, as opposed to other games

[rugged comet]

Developer comment: All endings are canon

According to Team Cherry, all endings are equally canon.

Source

@megathekindly used /dev-comments source: Reddit name: All endings are canon

[alpine plume]

again how would that work with the sequel which is a continuation of the story

[indigo venture]

can you re-read what I said, or like, explain what you didn't get

[alpine plume]

wouldnt that make the end game cutscene not cannon either

[indigo venture]

It is canon

[tough jetty]

Team cherry could say TK has down syndrome, cancer, and is gay and yall would believe it

[indigo venture]

As I said not only one thing is "THE CANON"

Spoiler tag the silksong bit

[alpine plume]

I mean the endings have different consequences on tk and the world

[indigo venture]

Yes, they do, and they're all canon

as I said it's all canon on it's own right, as TC has stated

That's just how they decided to write their games and define what canon means to them

[hot lily]

Silksong is a path
It is not the only path

[indigo venture]

Good phrasing

[alpine plume]

Oh i see

[hot lily]

also TK won't contain Radiance forever in any ending, it will fail eventually

[tough jetty]

multiverses

[indigo venture]

Not necessarily

but that's a way to interpret it? Maybe?

[hot lily]

yes necessarily, it is not pure

[indigo venture]

I dunno'

[alpine plume]

so ss would be a continuation of one of the choices of TK

[indigo venture]

uh huh

[indigo venture]

Not pure what

Wym

[tough jetty]

There is a universe where _ happens causing _

[indigo venture]

wut

[alpine plume]

doesnt he kill the radiance in ETV

[versed drum]

No that is pantheon ending

[indigo venture]

That's what Drowned said

TK kills the Radiance in Embrace The Void

[alpine plume]

yeh

[indigo venture]

Honestly Embrace the Void so good

[versed drum]

They kill the god seeker in etc

[indigo venture]

Defo best ending

[indigo venture]

No they don't

[alpine plume]

I agree

[indigo venture]

Godseeker mode is canon, which has a lot of alive Godseeker

It just overruns it with void but leaves them alive one way or another

[rugged comet]

Developer comment: Godseeker Mode is canon

According to a Hollow Knight playtester, Godseeker Mode canonically takes place after the Pantheon of Hallownest.

[Source 1](#hk-lore message) | [Source 2](#hk-lore message)

@megathekindly used /dev-comments source: Discord name: Godseeker Mode is canon

[versed drum]

Yeah never mind I just remembered all of etv

My bad

[hot lily]

yes but killing Rad isn't containing them

[versed drum]

If you kill radiance then you won’t have to contain them?

[hot lily]

TK is not a pure vessel so they can't contain Radiance permanently

[indigo venture]

If you kill Radiance you just end their life

[indigo venture]

Well duh

I never said they could

[alpine plume]

then whats the difference between TK and the vessel if they are both of the same heritage

[indigo venture]

TK is a Vessel

[alpine plume]

couldnt the vessel be capable of killing radiance?

[indigo venture]

I mean ,not any vessel

[alpine plume]

by vessel i mean the previous one

[versed drum]

No, the radiance is only in the dream realm

[indigo venture]

It's pretty implied only Unified Void can truly kill The Radiance

Which technically all vessels could do, but like, TK is the only that did it

[indigo venture]

The Hollow Knight?

[alpine plume]

yes

[hot lily]

oh ok

[indigo venture]

Yeah, Radiance's Death circumstances are extremely specific

-One, They NEED to be trapped somewhere, else they can just run somewhere in the dream Realm
-Voidheart, Unified Void is the force capable of killing them

-Three, I guess just be strong enough, I dunno'

[versed drum]

The radiance has no physical form so you cannot truly kill them unless they can unify the void and have access to the dream realm

[alpine plume]

which thk can get

[indigo venture]

[indigo venture]

Not really

Oh also
-Fourth, Dreamnail

There's only one Dreamnail that we know of

[versed drum]

Yeah

[indigo venture]

which TK is the holder of

Wielder*

[alpine plume]

the reason tk has access to the dreamrealm is because the moth gave him the dreamnail

[indigo venture]

Yes

[versed drum]

If the moths created the dream nail would they be able to remake it

[indigo venture]

Because Seer saw It as the wielder her tribe had been waiting for

[indigo venture]

Maybe, but like, they had a severe case of fucking going extinct

[versed drum]

Nvm they all died

[indigo venture]

yup

[versed drum]

Unless you don’t assent the seer

[alpine plume]

but wasnt the seer a follower of the pk

[versed drum]

But one moth isn’t enough ig

[indigo venture]

Nope

Plus the Moths that were, didn't give PK dreamnail

So they weren't crazy enough to just forsake their whole prophecy

[hot lily]

no, not all moths defected to PK

some stayed behind but it wasn't enough

[alpine plume]

but they would tell him of the prophecy

[indigo venture]

Well we don't know that

So

[alpine plume]

we really dont know much huh

[versed drum]

How did the pale king get into the dream realm, or is it just the past?

[indigo venture]

Good question

We dunno'

He just got there alongside his palace

[alpine plume]

another thing tho, doesnt the pk have foresight? so he would know what tk does

[versed drum]

Yes, he knew it would eventually fail he just tried to keep his kingdom running longer

[indigo venture]

Ye

We don't know how far it reaches, or what it can see, or what are it's limits, or if it has cooldown

See where I'm getting at again?

I mean like sure you could headcanon "Maybe this was PK's plan all along" but like. Eh

[alpine plume]

yes he knows his plan to seal the radiance would but assuming we follow the path of ETV wouldnt he know that radianc would vanquished

[indigo venture]

Maybe, probably not

[alpine plume]

bro sounds like a fraud lol

[versed drum]

No, he knew his kingdom would come to an end and he wanted to try to find a solution and found the least bad one, which was to contain the radiance and knew it was only temporary and nothing he would do would keep it completely so he made vessels to trap the radiance TEMPORARILY

While he tried to look for a solution

[alpine plume]

yes but through foresight wouldnt he know that tk would be able to kill radiance eventually

so if he knows that tk will kill the radiance him retreating with the white palace make sense? He is retreating while waiting to return after the radiance is defeated

[versed drum]

The knight can pick what they do and dream no more is not fully cannon so the pale king didn’t know about the knight killing the radiance since it is purely your choice to kill them or not

[alpine plume]

yes ofc, but our choices matter so if the player picked the ETV ending, in that instance wouldnt the PK know

and by extension explain his retreat

in the other endings his retreat can be seen as a sign of defeat ofc

because tk will just temporarily seal the radiance again

[versed drum]

I don’t fully understand what your saying

[alpine plume]

ok, all ending are canon

the player has a choice on what ending to choose

[versed drum]

Well, no they can do every ending again and again since you have your save and after killing the radiance they still return back to the nearest hence

Benche

Bench

[alpine plume]

so depending on what choice you make that event becomes canon, thats why the lore is so ambiguous so that depending on what ending the player chooses the lore can follow it

[versed drum]

Yes that is true but again no ending are cannon since you can do all of them in 1 save file

[alpine plume]

That's just the game design, tk story ends depending on what choice you make, being able to play after the fact doesnt remove how canon they are

TC has said that all endings are canon

so even if u can do them all, all of them are canonically correct

[versed drum]

Yes they did say that so if every ending is cannon then no ending are cannon

I’m just yapping

[alpine plume]

this

I mean then we aint discussing much lol, what im trying to do is discuss a specific ending not all of them at the same time

[versed drum]

Yeah so if we do one ending then the pale king can use their farsight but if we do every ending then they don’t truly have farsight

[alpine plume]

i mean he does, its just explained differently

[versed drum]

Yeah what I’m trying to say is if something is always changing is is still correct or is it not

[alpine plume]

lets say we end up sealing the radiance temporarily and the PK knows that no matter how much he tries he will never come up with a proper solution to deal with radiance then the reasons of his retreat is because he accepts he will never win

[versed drum]

It is correct in the moment but it might not be in a bit

[alpine plume]

Think of it as different multiverses, so in each universe there is a specific ending

we cannot discuss the lore of all versions at the same time

because they all follow a different event

[versed drum]

That makes sense so if we’re talking about one specific ending then his farsight does work and he knows but if we do multiple endings he knows that the radiance is coming and retreats but doesn’t know how it ends

[alpine plume]

yes

so a bunch of nothing lol

[versed drum]

lUlZ

[signal marlin]

his foresight always works - every playthrough is canon

[scenic surge]

godseeker asks a simillar question and given what the game implies

he either died from his own guilt and shame

or from suicide

something backed up by a surprising astounding levels of evidence

[scenic surge]

the case is not improbable it's what is suggested

the servants actively talk about his troubles

the mask maker talks about his great shame

and he literally has dream nail dialogue that is just ",,,,,"

after "no cost to great"

which mind you is something that basically no other npc, enemy or corpse have ever had

like "...No cost too great..."
"..."

the amount of evidence is astounding

and honestly it makes a ton of sense when you consider the fact that he lost everything??

[scenic surge]

People genuinely seem to not know what "no cost too great" even means

It doesn't mean "There is no cast, this is completely okay and cool" it means "though there indeed is a great cost, the end result justifies the means"

and he literally goes on to have "......." dialogue after the no cost to great dream nail dialogue

which stays consistent

by all means him just commiting suicide is widely backed up

by in game evidence

[random palm]

Who is Blackworm and could he be related to the Lord of Shades?

[trail hemlock]

The statue in deepnest?

[random palm]

Blackworm is the same god as the Pale King when he was a worm

[trail hemlock]

Well that doesnt anwser my question

[random palm]

idk what statue you're talking about

[trail hemlock]

Of what blackworm you speak of?

[random palm]

from the past

[trail hemlock]

Where are they mantioned?

[random palm]

I don't remember myself

[wind osprey]

I saw an animation for hollow knight and i doubt one thing.
When we beat radiance, a big void come and capture radiance. So was that the big hollow knight?

Or sonethingike void king or some such?

Also,pale king needed someone with no feelings right? If yes, then he got and bind to seal radiance. So, does this big hollow knight got feelings at the end? An animation just showed that little and big knight handhsaked.

[wind lichen]

the blackwyrm in white defender's journal description?

[vapid summit]

the one that open's radiance face?

[split compass]

it was the Shade of the Hollow Knight, yeah

[split compass]

the big knight, the Hollow Knight, was said to be 'tarnished by an idea instilled', something that made them unable to bind Radiance

we don't get told exactly what that means

but they failed to properly bind the Radiance

[scenic surge]

..........the lord of shades is the knight

the blackwyrm literally is a being from the past

so idk what you're talking about

[brisk venture]

No

Literally no mention of that

[neat kite]

Blackwyrm is Lifeblood Beast when they were in worm-like caterpillar form

[brisk venture]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-jack-sparrow-salt-javkal-gif-167664285880811395

I hope that's satire

[idle geyser]

blackwyrm?

what blackwyrm

[neat kite]

you can't tell?

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: White Defender

Description:
Figure from a fondly remembered past. Reacts gallantly to defeat by becoming stronger.

Hunter's notes:
"The Champion's Call, the Knotted Grove, the Battle of the Blackwyrm... I remember it all. I will carry those glories with me always... until we meet again."
- Ogrim of the Five Knights

Dream Nail:
Hegemol... I miss your humour...
Ze'mer... I miss your stories...
Dryya... I miss your wisdom...
Isma... I miss.. I miss you...
Your Majesty... Have faith in me!

@mebaconcraft used /journal name: White Defender text: Full Text

[brisk venture]

I've seen strange things in lore channels

[brisk venture]

@idle geyser

[idle geyser]

HMMMMM

[brisk venture]

Literally the only time blackwyrm is mentioned in the game

[pseudo crown]

imagine if black wyrm was just pale wyrm corrupted by abyss/void

[neat kite]

this one was obvious

[wind osprey]

Yeah. Come from bellow with some eyes

[wind osprey]

Maybe understandable

What is zoteboat btw? Is it fan made something?

[indigo venture]

probably not

[strange patio]

the the player character supposed to be a baby

in hk

[loud crater]

No, not exactly.

They're the corpse of a fetus that's being puppeted by what's essential an Eldritch liquid.

[mighty dove]

So like... kind of baby

[idle geyser]

me when 300 year old baby:

[fading crane]

-_-

No

[neat kite]

it was a joke

[fading crane]

Let's see, the Pale King has two colors: gray and white
The Wyrm is called "Pale King"

No Grey King

If the God of Lifeblood were the Blackwyrm, it should really be called Bluewyrm.

[fading crane]

That's not a worm

[trail hemlock]

Yea
Then wtf is Blackworm??

[loud crater]

Probably a battle or a battle tactic.

Hence "The battle of the Blackwyrm"

[trail hemlock]

Is that even a wyrm?

[neat kite]

i mean i assume Wyrm corpse was brighter and more pale while alive

[fading crane]

Agree

[fading crane]

Unknown

[scenic surge]

oh sup horf

you doing good mate

[loud crater]

Yup. Heading to school rn.

[scenic surge]

hope you don't got any hard subjects to do today

let alone an exam or test

[loud crater]

Nope. In fact i get to go in late because I don't have any tests. Its state testing week.

[hot lily]

Unknown, unlikely

[nocturne basin]

wait so ive been thinking,cuz i forgot genuenly but all i know is the hollow knight was made in the abbys,but in the opening cutscene we see him arriving at the kingdom while the abbys was under it

[indigo venture]

That is not The Hollow Knight

[nocturne basin]

i meant our playable character

[indigo venture]

The one at the beginning of the Game is The Knight

[nocturne basin]

oh

[indigo venture]

It escaped the Abyss

[nocturne basin]

wait for real

how did i not know this

yeah but like

actually nevermind i get it

[tiny heart]

yo the knight was genuinely my old classmate from high school bro

we would copy eachothers homeworks gng

i miss the good ol times man

fame changed bro🥺

[indigo venture]

Dont meme here

[loud crater]

Its still my sibling, we tight. You just aint cool, man.

[opaque plume]

Question in your opinions what is the hardest enemy for me it's the primal aspid in general anything that's spits infection

[lunar abyss]

crystal bats in the crystal peaks, they are SOO ANNOYING

[loud crater]

Volt Twisters. Fuckers need to eat some real fucking protein.

[opaque plume]

By the way how long has the radiance's infection been out since the hunter's says journal says that aspids are descendants of primal aspids which probably means primal aspids existed a pretty long time ago and that they are supposed to be extinct and since primal aspids spit infection that probably means that the radiance's infection must be really old

[near sequoia]

the infection probably just mixed with their venom

[opaque plume]

So is the infection older or the primal aspid

[near sequoia]

primal aspids presumably

[opaque plume]

I guess it makes sense

[fresh helm]

I don’t know anything about the lore, so mb if this is obvious, but why do you start from the howling cliffs? Why did they leave and why did they come back?

[scenic surge]

well as all the other vessels the knight tried to escape the abyss and did, probably finding a way out, it did and it left to just traverse randomly, as for why it came back, it came back because of the radiance

[fresh helm]

So it just wandered bc its role was taken so it didn’t have a purpose?

[solid vortex]

how doesnt the nailmaster get infected?

[wanton zephyr]

More like cuz it left hallownest and got amnesia

[indigo venture]

Strong wills

[solid vortex]

ive never really understood that explanation. yea ig it plagues the mind, but how does that like make the infected part of a hivemind? how does the radiance control ts. also, how does affect infected bugs like the broken vessel and those in infected crossroads, and also enhancing their physical(like the big ass fly thingy in crossroads)?

[indigo venture]

It breaks their minds

[solid vortex]

if its strong wills that deters the infection, that must mean that it cant affect them physically, because as long as their mind is good, they could be weak and fragile physically asf, and still be fine for some reason

which is fine ig

a pretty non conventional infection

but nonetheless still an infection

but i just dont get how the mechanics of it works

like does it grow?

[loud crater]

Its a mind based infection.

It spreads via the Dream Realm.

[solid vortex]

oh ya on that

if bugs cant get into dream realm without dream nail

[novel flume]

Yall

I need help

[solid vortex]

how can the infection get out

[indigo venture]

It isn't a physical disease

[solid vortex]

can the radiance come into the real world?

[loud crater]

#hk-help

[indigo venture]

It's a disease that can become physical

[loud crater]

No.

[indigo venture]

No

The Infection is Radiance's way of interacting with the real world

[loud crater]

After it gets you mentally it can produce physical side effects.

[solid vortex]

ya but how does it go into the real world in the first place if it comes from the radiance

[indigo venture]

Because it just does

Once your infected it can becomy physical

[loud crater]

Magic.

[solid vortex]

we literally see like the orange infection bubble thingies and the orange air

[loud crater]

Those are side effects.

[indigo venture]

It doesn't spread it

The infected air isn't capable of spreading the Infection, because that's just not how it propagates

[solid vortex]

if i was emo and depressed, it doesnt automatically give me goth bat powers

[indigo venture]

Dude It's just magic

[solid vortex]

like the orange mist thingy idk

[indigo venture]

It's a Higher Being too

[indigo venture]

That's Infected Air, yes

[loud crater]

That's because you don't exist in a world where Dreams can have tangible magical properties.

[indigo venture]

So

[solid vortex]

even so, it’d be intuitive for the world to abid by some logic

like they can coexist

[indigo venture]

No it wouldn't

Like yes HK has some logic on it, duh

[loud crater]

It doesnt have to abide by our logic.

[indigo venture]

But that isn't a good argument in this scenario

[loud crater]

Its a bug world where certain higher Beings can control the life force of a bug.

[solid vortex]

exactly. so im tryna figure out a way that the way their world works can be expressed in ours

[indigo venture]

It can't

simple as

[loud crater]

Well youre not going to succeed.

Its a fantasy world.

A fantasy bug world to ve percise.

[indigo venture]

Trying to sounds boring imo

I'd recommend not bashing your head against this wall, doesn't really make sense

[solid vortex]

:/

well we can all agree that even in hk bug world, an infection has to spread to a bug to take it over from its natural state, correct

[loud crater]

No.

[indigo venture]

It actively doesn't need to

[solid vortex]

“spread” is a vague term here

[loud crater]

City of Tears blocked itself off from Hallownest and still got infected.

[indigo venture]

As I said, the physical part of it literally doesn't matter whatsoever, it can't spread the Infection

[solid vortex]

what i mean is you gotta go from uninfected to infected by some means

[indigo venture]

Which is via mind and dreams

[loud crater]

The fucking dream moth.

[indigo venture]

Horf I feel like something isn't clicking here

[solid vortex]

?

[loud crater]

Reading comprehension?

[indigo venture]

Radiance is the source of the Infection

[indigo venture]

Sounds too harsh but maybe, yeah

[loud crater]

The Radiance tries to get you to willing let it in to infect you.

[solid vortex]

oh ya the moths like abandoned the radiance

[indigo venture]

Yes

[loud crater]

By not letting it in you deny it from infecting you. Think kinda like how vampires need to be let into your home.

[indigo venture]

The infection is constantly trying to whisper sweet things to you to begin infecting, it only enters when allowed

Thing is the insinstance and pull of it grows stronger each time, causing weak willed peeps to fall easier

[solid vortex]

well its not as easy as just saying no…

[indigo venture]

What thing isn't as easy as just saying no

[solid vortex]

denying it from entering

obviously most bugs wouldnt want to get infected

[indigo venture]

You need a strong will to do so yeah

[solid vortex]

hmm

[indigo venture]

And they don't have the will to be able to sucessfully do so

[solid vortex]

ok, what exactly is will here

[indigo venture]

Will-power

[solid vortex]

like i see people just throw it around

[indigo venture]

Drive

Strength of Mind

Determination and resolve

[solid vortex]

what constitutes a “strong” and “weak” will in a bug?

[indigo venture]

Their Resolve

[solid vortex]

yes i know

[indigo venture]

So?

[solid vortex]

but why are some bugs infected and others not? because they have differing will power

[indigo venture]

Yes

[solid vortex]

what decides that

[indigo venture]

Their will power

Their strength of mind to refuse the sweet whispering of the blight in their dreams

[loud crater]

Mental fortitude.

[indigo venture]

Why are we going around in circles

[solid vortex]

Brothers. you are saying that bugs with a strong will power have a strong will power because their will power is strong

😭

[indigo venture]

Literally who said that

Look let me paint an example

[solid vortex]

im tryna get a quantitative basis on the measurement of willpower

or at least something that is measurable and meaningful in terms of content

not just “oh ya their brains=strong”

[loud crater]

Basically a warrior is more likely to resist the infection than a common bug. Hence why the Mantises arent infected.

There is no scale to this.

[indigo venture]

Hornet has the will-power to do acts a normal bug wouldn't

[solid vortex]

wb like cornifer

[indigo venture]

Like slaughtering her "Siblings"

[indigo venture]

Foreigner

[loud crater]

He hasn't been here long.

[indigo venture]

Which Radiance doesn't really seem to care about

Ye

Foreigners as a whole are just .0 to Radiance's wrath and revenge, if they stick around long enough they'll be struck

[solid vortex]

ok lets circle back to the nailmaster. hes a blacksmith, not exactly a warrior, and hes like a local

and the other shopkeeps

[indigo venture]

He has a strong will as well

[loud crater]

Hes focused on his task.

[indigo venture]

Nailsage Sly is a Warrior, as well as Iselda

[solid vortex]

like the guy that buys antiques

in city

[indigo venture]

Lemm? He has great resolve to find the Kingdom's history

That's a strong will

[loud crater]

Hes too absorbed in his task to care. And of course, strong willed.

[solid vortex]

WAIT

what about that one bug

bretta

[loud crater]

He does the tedious task of deciphering the Wanderer's Journals.

[solid vortex]

in fungal wastes

[indigo venture]

They don't have a strong resolve and are seen being infected

[solid vortex]

SURLRY

[solid abyss]

i mean i dont think it's impossible that species has something to do with willpower

[fresh helm]

Hadn’t been there long

[solid vortex]

didnt she get left behind?

[indigo venture]

Yeah Bretta was just getting prepared for the mind shattering stuff

[indigo venture]

She was having dreams showing her deepest fears ye

Sly is the opposite, he was getting flashes to his past as he was being infected

[solid vortex]

what about the stag

well

[indigo venture]

Resolve to find his home

Strong will

[solid vortex]

“strong will power”

“will to serve”

idk

[indigo venture]

Okay so you clearly get what we're saying

So

[loud crater]

Basically every none infected bug has the resolve and willpower to ignore the Radiance's temptations.

[solid vortex]

just find (i dont wanna say bs) reasoning for the lore

for each character

[indigo venture]

What "Reasoning"?

[solid vortex]

like

oh he wants to do this

he like that

[indigo venture]

[loud crater]

My brother in Void its as simple as "they ignore the Dream moth whispering shit in their minds".

[indigo venture]

I like how crass you can be Horf

Your cool

[solid vortex]

but if thats the case how can you justify bugs like the soul master

getting infected

[indigo venture]

Because he got mind broken

[solid vortex]

like hes a great warrior im sure

[loud crater]

They got tricked by the Radiance.

[loud crater]

Hes a nerd and fraud.

[indigo venture]

Strong Wills aren't = to Immunity

No one is immune

Strong Wills just allow to avoid the Infection for longer

For Example Hornet EVENTUALLY would fall, would just take long

[indigo venture]

Nope

[solid abyss]

idk if that's true

[solid vortex]

why do you think so?

[indigo venture]

They were a coward sacrificing countless innocent beings for the sake of power

[indigo venture]

Because you can't be immune Radiance

You can just avoid them

[solid abyss]

or even on theme

[indigo venture]

Hornet being the one with the strongest will, can do so for a long ass time

[solid abyss]

actually i guess white lady implies a lot more people would become infected if the radiance escaped

[loud crater]

Shes strong willed enough to be functionally immune but not fully immune.

[indigo venture]

Radiance could potentially string EVERYTHING that has a mind

but like that's a stretch

Yet again "Nightmare Binds All" should theorically apply to dreams

[loud crater]

Because then she'd be screaming in your mind, not just whispering.

[indigo venture]

Yeah that's also a point

[solid vortex]

aint no way that fucking bug that sells the fragile charms has more will than anything 💀

[indigo venture]

It has a strong enough will

As for why

Let me thing for a second

[solid abyss]

why not

[indigo venture]

Right, for the Smells

[solid vortex]

bro just look at the geeked out mofo

[indigo venture]

It's the same as Divine, he wants to find that 'Thing'

[solid abyss]

willpower and motivation arent really the same thing

[loud crater]

My guy it doesn't matter what you think, they just ignore the fucking dream moth.

[indigo venture]

He loves Smells

[indigo venture]

The will due to a motivation

[solid abyss]

a person can have a lot of willpower and not be driven to accomplish anything in particular

[solid vortex]

what does dream moth have to do with this

[indigo venture]

Like Hornet playing Sentinel and Protector for a dying kingdom because of her hope

[loud crater]

The Dream Moth is the Radiance.

The one who infects you.

[indigo venture]

Radiance isn't a moth

[solid vortex]

ohh

wait what

[loud crater]

Not right now man.

[indigo venture]

Fine fine

[solid vortex]

ok whatever

another thing

[solid abyss]

you dont really have to invent reasons like this for every bug

[indigo venture]

Yeah because there are

Like they are already there

[solid vortex]

yea this

like you cant just say the bugs that got infected had no will

cuz they prolly did

[solid abyss]

im sure theres some mantis out there who has done nothing with their life but remains uninfected because they naturally have more intelligence and self-control than the husks

[solid vortex]

even though majority of the bugs were chuds

[indigo venture]

Not enough

[loud crater]

They fell for the dream moth's bs.

[indigo venture]

Probably not honestly

Mantises as a whole are VERY, VERY proudful

That's their whole thing, Pride

[solid vortex]

a small amount of them prolly had wills

[indigo venture]

A useless mantis would prob get cannibalized

[solid vortex]

what bs?

[indigo venture]

Everything has a will

Some are just greater than others

[solid vortex]

like a “strong will”

[loud crater]

Whispering.

[solid vortex]

as you said

[indigo venture]

Yeah but as I said "Strong Wills" don't mean immune

[loud crater]

Also the infection can just straight up reanimate corpses.

[indigo venture]

Like again, Sly, Who was one of the strongest bugs currently alive, would've fell had TK Not saved him

[loud crater]

So many of the infected you fight and kill are likely corpses.

[loud crater]

Not all, but several.

[indigo venture]

Ye

[loud crater]

Husk is a term used to mean corpse basically.

[solid vortex]

ok what about the random npcs

[candid ginkgo]

is sly a fruit fly

[solid vortex]

like the tall guy above queen station stag

[candid ginkgo]

or like ab ant

[solid vortex]

or the big ass guy gatherer

[indigo venture]

Not a Guy

[loud crater]

They just don't fall for them.

[loud crater]

Collector?

[indigo venture]

Willow is just too resolved to eat shit

Also a Foreigner

[candid ginkgo]

guys imprtant. is sly a fruit fly

[solid vortex]

well thats kinda vague… like surely the bugs see people getting infected, losing their minds to this whisper, and is like: oh maybe the whisper is right

[indigo venture]

It's just a Fly

[solid abyss]

unclear

[candid ginkgo]

i need to settle an argument

[loud crater]

Probably some nondescript fly.

[indigo venture]

And that's where they get infected

Yes

[solid vortex]

think fly

[candid ginkgo]

[solid vortex]

why would they do that

are they stupid

[solid abyss]

why would this happen

[indigo venture]

Like TL saw the strength of infected bugs, and wanted that strength, thus allowed it to enter his mind

[solid vortex]

thats unintuitive

[little steppe]

what animal is the charm love lady thing

[indigo venture]

Losing of hope

[indigo venture]

Slug iirc

[indigo venture]

Yes, most are

[solid vortex]

cuz hord said like the whispers are infecting

[loud crater]

Its very persistent whispering.

[indigo venture]

And the whispers grow stronger the more you refuse

It scales slowly

[loud crater]

Its how the Radiance makes you let her in. The whispers themselves don't do the infecting.

[indigo venture]

I'd guess Hornet basically has it shrieking on her head each time she sleeps atp ngl

[solid vortex]

where did you get this btw

[loud crater]

Or maybe Radiance gave up on her.

[rugged comet]

Myla - Infected - Dream Nailed after defeating Soul Master

... how much longer... KILL IT... how much longer... DANGEROUS... how much longer... KILL IT... how much longer... KILL THE EMPTY ONE...
...how much longer... must I dig...?

@megathekindly used /npcs misc name: Myla category: Infected dialogue: Dream Nailed after defeating Soul Master

[loud crater]

Hunter Journal and Dream Nail Dialogue.

[indigo venture]

Here's a bug actively falling, and the whispers in question

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Soul Master

Description:
Head of the Soul Sanctum. Hoarded soul hoping to stave off Hallownest's affliction, but eventually became intoxicated by its power.

Hunter's notes:
The bugs of Hallownest tried all kinds of tricks and rituals and prayers to rid themselves of the infection. But to no avail! Perhaps the infection came from somewhere deep inside of them that they could not escape.

Dream Nail:
(Soul Master)
The King falls, but I live forever!
My dreams are eternal and so am I!
I can hear it...The whispering of their souls...

(Soul Tyrant)
You promised I would live forever!
Did their souls bring me closer to the light?
That voice...Was it never there...?

@lexmolten used /journal name: Soul Master

[solid abyss]

isnt she fully infected at this point

[indigo venture]

No

She's trying to fight back

[solid abyss]

when is that

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Traitor Lord

Description:
Deposed Lord of the Mantis tribe. Embraced the infection and turned against his sisters.

Hunter's notes:
I have felt that desire. The desire to take the infection into myself. To become stronger, more powerful... these thoughts haunt my dreams during the darkest times. A false hope, but it can burn so brilliantly in one's mind.

Dream Nail:
...Outcast...Survive...Kill...
...Intruder...Destroy...
Our lands now...

@lexmolten used /journal name: Traitor Lord

[indigo venture]

Post Soul Master

Post Crystal Heart is when she is fully infected

[solid vortex]

if this was like the half infected stage, couldnt have been just like the infection leaking through, kind of taking over, but not fully, instead of whispers

[solid abyss]

oh thats crystal heart

yeah my bad

[indigo venture]

Just doesn't work like that

[solid abyss]

this happens to a lot of bugs

[solid vortex]

well yk how the hollow knight had moments of lucidity

what if its like that

[indigo venture]

I guess I phrased it wrong

[solid vortex]

its not impossible

[indigo venture]

Here's Myla trying to cling to herself*

Not "Fighting Back"

[loud crater]

Less moments of lucidity and more so getting control of its body back for short bursts.

[indigo venture]

To kill itself

[loud crater]

[solid abyss]

she also describes the crystals as whispering

[indigo venture]

It's not like THK is mindbroken like others

It still there

[solid vortex]

wouldnt the infection at that point be like that, but swapped? like tiny moments of infection, mostly still sane

[indigo venture]

Just, yk, slowly fading, like it's body

[indigo venture]

If it was mostly still sane It'd just instantly kill itself

And the short spurts of control would be Radiance trying to kill TK

As you can guess that is not the case

[solid vortex]

💀

[solid vortex]

oh ya

[solid abyss]

this is also big

this is pretty well established to be how the infection works more or less

[indigo venture]

Soul master always wanted to outlast everyone

Radiance convinced them they could

They lied

"They called me holy.... They said I'd outlast them... they deemed me special... They lied"

[solid vortex]

u sure? what if this was the ritual where they sacrificed the souls to try and lice

live

[indigo venture]

-First Soul Master

[indigo venture]

Oh yeah they were sacrificing a lot of people to try and use soul

[solid vortex]

whispering of theirs souls could mean the souls of the innocents

[indigo venture]

They first thought Soul would be able to protect them from the Infection

[indigo venture]

It is those whispers, yes

In that sentence, it's referring to the actual whispers of the damned soul he got inside, not Radiance

[solid vortex]

bro who said the radiance whispers sweet nothings to the bugs 💀

[indigo venture]

Horf

And he is right

Max I think your getting confused here

[solid vortex]

ok ig

i forgot what my question was at the start

we kinda lost the point

oh ya

if it breaks their will, enters their mind, and controls them

how does it straight up alter their body?

[indigo venture]

Magic

[solid vortex]

like the small fly turning into big fly

IT DONT MAKE SENSE

https://tenor.com/view/grimm-gif-26058981

[indigo venture]

womp womp

[solid vortex]

how do i still not have vc access

[sand stump]

What's the topic?

[strange patio]

manifestation of divine power? idk

[sinful sparrow]

Its a game with bugs that create buildings with a dream realm and a tree that can talk. Nothing makes sense

[solid vortex]

it was on like the the mechanics of the infectio

characteristic of a "strong will"

[solid vortex]

thats why we assign logic to things. to try and make sense of it

[sinful sparrow]

ik

but still

[sand stump]

wdym the mechanics?

Like how it works or?

[solid vortex]

how it works, how it spreads, what determines resistance towards it

[sinful sparrow]

i think the infection grows in the mind like cancer

[solid vortex]

another question i had was how it physically altered the body if the only requirement for infection was a weak mind

[sinful sparrow]

thats the weird orage stuff

and like as it grows it can cause the bug to bloat and the radiance controls it

[split compass]

in holloworld, dreams can become something real - the Radiance created the moth tribe from her dreams (Unn created the mosskin the same way)
so the Infection starts in the mind and overtakes the thoughts of bugs, and eventually this manifests in physical form, the orange infection ooze, which bloats and distorts the body
another form of dreams becoming real

[sinful sparrow]

ohh

that makes sense

[solid vortex]

k

[loud crater]

Seer also plucks a charm from her memories.

[split compass]

yep, a number of charms are examples of dreams becoming something real

[indigo venture]

Dreamshield?

[split compass]

Salubra mentions that many charms are born from the dying wishes of bugs, I say any of those would qualify

[modern wren]

Im confused on whats the reason the vessel comes to hallownest at the beginning of the game. Also how did it escape the abyss after being locked there?

[indigo venture]

It was called back to Hallownest.
Unknown

[modern wren]

By who? Radiance? If yes, why?

[indigo venture]

THK

[modern wren]

...wha?

The knight?

[indigo venture]

The Hollow Knight/Radiance did it

They did the call back

[modern wren]

I can see why hollow knight would do it, but why would radiance?

[indigo venture]

Good question

let me get my arguments for both

[modern wren]

Uh alright

Thank you

[indigo venture]

-THK, Trying to get a replacement, warning other alive vessel that it's failed
-Radiance, could just be a defying roar, Radiance is prompt to act out in wrath often.

[modern wren]

If it was the hollow knight, why specifically call that vessel?

Also what happend to the other vessels?

I assume this one is not the only one who escaped

The ones in the abyss seemed to have died, for some reason

(I havent played the game in a while, so i might be misremembering some stuff)

[indigo venture]

It called All Vessels

[indigo venture]

Some are probably still out there, most dead

[modern wren]

Where are all the others?

[indigo venture]

To be honest I don't get the call myself

[indigo venture]

Maybe still getting there, most that arrived died already via Hornet

[modern wren]

Oh i did not know that second psrt. Why did hornet kill them

Sorry if im dumb

[indigo venture]

Because they weren't strong enough

[modern wren]

To kill radiance? Was she battling them to test them?

[indigo venture]

No, that possibility was something she didn't deem possible

None were strong enough to beat her, thus, not strong to beat THK

And getting to THK and not being able to beat them meant the Kingdom was ultra fucked

[modern wren]

Also i wonder why the vessels in the abyss died. The vessels dont seem to need anything to survive

[indigo venture]

Falling to the ground at fast speeds

[modern wren]

I guess so

But i mean

All of them?

[indigo venture]

I mean others prob died to Void related stuff

[modern wren]

Did they keep trying to climb over and ovee, even after the door was closed, until they all died?

[indigo venture]

Like shades of other vessels

[modern wren]

Makes sense

I assume hornet killed the vessels before they arrived hallownest, but fought the player character only aftet they arrived to hallownest

I guess she just missed that one

[modern wren]

Or am i wrong and something was said about that?

[indigo venture]

No?

[modern wren]

To which part

[indigo venture]

Most of it

Hornet killed vessels once they arrived

[modern wren]

Could you elaborate

[indigo venture]

She used to guard the entrance but just stopped at one point

[modern wren]

And thats when the player arrived?

[indigo venture]

ye

[modern wren]

Do we know why she stopped guarding the entrance?

[indigo venture]

Quirrel

[modern wren]

What did he do

Also thanks for helping me understanding the lore

[opaque plume]

How did the vessels escape the abyss after the door was sealed

[old sentinel]

There are definitely other secret entrances/ exits to the Abyss (for example, most likely one through Deepnest as Nosk has vessel corpses hung up in his l'air).

[opaque plume]

But if so how do we end up in howling cliffs at the start of the game since the only place connecting howling cliffs is dirt mouth and green path

[old sentinel]

We probably just leave somehow at some point, there's no explanation for how we leave, just clues to how we escaped the Abyss

[limber oar]

Guys I understood almost everything in the game but there's something I don't get it||since we know that the abyss's gate has been sealed after the hollow knight was chosen and since the knight didn't make and become trapped in the abyss and while the gate didn't get opened since this incident
How did the knight managed to escape and got telepored to the king's pass||

[crystal brook]

we dont know how the knight escaped the abyss its never explained

there must be alternate ways out

[limber oar]

Maybe the||void choose him and help him escaped||

[twilit hearth]

spaghetti

[flint sandal]

it's not made explicitly clear but there are things which suggest that as dizzet said there were alternate ways out of the abyss. for example, there are a lot of clues hinting towards vessels escaping into deepnest due to vessel corpses in nosk's lair. the reason the knight is in king's pass because somehow it managed to make its way out of hallownest into the desolate wastes. it's also not clear how this happened but eventually the knight returns to hallownest (iirc because the radiance/thk may have called it? i may be wrong though)

[obtuse terrace]

what happened to the shammans

[dry grove]

If the black egg drains the life force of non-vessels inside it how are there infection vines inside it

[hot lily]

because the infection vines are manifestations of something which isn't primarily physical to begin with

[loud crater]

They either all died, one got kidnapped or one lacked the power to leave his home.

[loud crater]

Alternate unseen route out of the Abyss, potentially through Deepnest.

[obtuse terrace]

isnt there a dead one in the place you get howling wreath

[loud crater]

Yes.

As i said, died.

[turbid stratus]

What could you be cooking, Ekk?

[opaque plume]

When getting void heart we go into the knight's memories of the climb that means we had mantis claws before tye start of the game and somehow lost it

[turbid stratus]

Dont we also have monarch wings?

[opaque plume]

Yeah but when you enter King's pass at th3 start of the game you lost all your abilities

[turbid stratus]

I think it was just supposed to make it easier for us yo climb up gameplay wise

many things that have to do with gameplay seem to be disconnected from canon for the sake of comfort of the player

[loud crater]

No. It makes no sense how we'd have it given that TK is fresh out of its egg at that point.

[turbid stratus]

The only way I see that being the case would be if pale king dropped some claws into the basin like a hunger game situation

but since we dont see any claws down there its safe to assume thats unlikely

[opaque plume]

Fair does that mean some vessels tried killing each other to be the one to escape

[turbid stratus]

Possibly, the vessels are hollow so I imagine moral issues and brotherhood wouldn't be much of an obstacle

[opaque plume]

What would you have done in that situation

[turbid stratus]

I already said what I would do sometime before in either this chat or hk discussion,

I personally would slaughter other vessels and use their masks as ladders

but, thing is we are not vessels and we dont think the same as them

how is it being hollow,

how is it being empty

we have no idea

[turbid stratus]

And what would you do?

[indigo venture]

I mean it's likely you would just die then

[opaque plume]

I would personally try not to kill anyone unless attacked and make it to the top

[indigo venture]

Bunch of shades to slaughter you and all other vessels

[turbid stratus]

Statistically, yes

[opaque plume]

Like I think it's not worth killing your siblings

[turbid stratus]

You're not thinking hollow enough

deprive yourself of humanity

[indigo venture]

The shades that'll be free from their shells will make sure your hollow enough

[opaque plume]

So you mean shade would everything in s9ght and give the ones below you a good descending dark before giving the pale king an abyss shriek

[turbid stratus]

I wouldnt call it that, since I'd turn into a shade myself

[indigo venture]

How would they get the spells

[turbid stratus]

and is a shade more hollow than a vessel?

[indigo venture]

Well void is pretty hollow

[turbid stratus]

Right, but, as a vessel you are already filled with void

[opaque plume]

Hollow knight is most hollow it's in his name

[turbid stratus]

So are you really more hollow if you get rid of an outer shell?

Quite the conundrum

[opaque plume]

But wouldn't the pale king have easily beat the radiance if he just let all the vessels out that way the radiance is sealed in 1000 vessels

[turbid stratus]

Thats a really good question

Maybe its about the strength of a vessel, if you put it through stress and struggle it somehow becomes more hollow and capable

because if even one vessel was too weak

the radiance could escape I imagine

or the procedure of containing radiance is so complicated and demanding, that its unfeasible to try on more than one vessel

[indigo venture]

How would you seal all of Radiance in 1000 Vessels

[opaque plume]

I don't know maybe fuse all the vessels together that's how the knight becomes the shade lord and you know the shade lord means business

[turbid stratus]

That can prove to be difficult

suffice to say

I myself am very uneducated and confused on certain lore,

and Im especially confused on how the ||void in Godhome was able to envelop Radiance and actually work||

I was under the impression that all beings in Godhome are dreams, so, shade lord can dream?

void can dream?

Truly confusing

[opaque plume]

Well shade lord isn't a dream shade lord is void given focus and is a God older than radiance the knight was able to become shade lord because it had a will and it combined with its siblings to transform into shade lord, the godseeker mainly puts the knight through these trials to awaken the shade lord inside the knight

[indigo venture]

No it's not older than Radiance