hk-lore

[sand stump]

He didn't see that as a possibility

[timber void]

Ancient enemy

[sand stump]

Enemy does not mean Fear

two very different words

[agile dew]

He didnt know about dream nailing?

[loud crater]

I consider ULTRAKILL’s Flesh Prison my enemy but that doesn’t mean I fear it.

[sand stump]

Nah, that was a Moth Tribe secret and those guys were probably the first to die

[timber void]

Even if thats the case, the simple fact that we see higherbeings get killed by it (aswell as dialogue mentioning its one of the only ways to kill them) makes it clear they aren't voidproof

[agile dew]

If it was a secret , why did the moth give it to us, a person who looks like the the king who is actively trying to kill the god they worship

[sand stump]

No, we See One Higher being killed by Unified Void

[loud crater]

There is one instance of a fundamentally different kind of Higher Being getting killed by it. You’re attempting to apply that to the PK being able to be killed by a small amount of un-unified Void.

When he fucking glowed

[timber void]

We most certainly do not, and im gonna just say, this theory that pale king is to bright to be effected by the void, to be completely wrong

[loud crater]

It’s not even a theory, it’s basically confirmed based on in game content. The Abyss Lighthouse is able to pacify the entire Void Lake with, compared to how much light the PK would emit, very little light.

[timber void]

The idea that we literally see a god of light get killed by the void and yall are saying they are resistant to the void...

[sand stump]

back

[loud crater]

Said light God got its ass kicked to be dimmer, is going up against UNIFIED VOID, which is a lot fucking stronger then un-unified Void, and managed to escape its grip once earlier in the fight

The PK would at most deal with trace amounts of un-unified Void.

Which is much, much, much weaker than unified Void.

[sand stump]

and PK is already known to shine much brighter than the Radiance is he not?

[sand stump]

So you are right here

1. Just saying "no" and not debating why
   and
2. Just saying an objectively right thing is wrong?

[timber void]

You guys can continue to believe this by all means, but i have 100% confidence that this is a bunch of baloney reasoning given what we see in HK and in SS

[timber void]

I could say the same thing about your reasoning

[loud crater]

You can be 100% objectively wrong all you want, just don’t bring it here if you’re going to pretty baselessly argue against facts.

[sand stump]

No, we are giving reasons and backing it up
You are just saying "nononono I'm right and all of you are wrong"

[timber void]

Im literally seeing and reading in game that this isn't the case, and yall are doing mental gymnastics to make it make sense...

[loud crater]

Ok, show us what you’re seeing.

Also using reasoning to explain why things are the way they are isn’t mental gymnastics.

[signal marlin]

[timber void]

I see the radiance (a literal light god) being killed by the void. She calls it her ancient enemy, she says she does not fear it, when she goes out of her way to kill it in any way she can.
I see another incredibly bright and glowing god, die after being left in the void, and the shamans claiming its one of the only ways to kill said god.
I see white lady, claim a certain flower being the only means to resist the light, why on earth would the pale king need something like this? He is voidproof afterall.

I feel like im taking crazy pills right now

[loud crater]

I assume that middle part is Silksong stuff.

[loud crater]

Also, you need spoiler tag Silksong stuff.

[loud crater]

Silksong end game soldiers!
So. ||Assuming you’re talking about GMS in the middle, the Void wasn’t the thing that killed her, Hornet absorbed her. The flower is absolutely not the only way to resist the Void, a bright enough light will do the trick.||

And I will say for like the 5th fucking time.

The PK was dealing with UN-UNIFIED VOID. THE FAR WEAKER AND LESS POWERFUL FORM OF VOID THAT GOT RESTRAINED BY LIKE A DOZEN LUMAFLIES AND A REFLECTING PLATE.

[sand stump]

Oh shit, you pissed off Horf

I ain't never seen this guy pissed like that

[loud crater]

How many times to I have to fucking say that shit before it sinks in?

Because clearly I haven’t said it enough.

Let me break it down. Real quick.
Post Void Heart Void:
Able to grapple and eventually kill a WEAKENED Higher Being. And, mind you, even this form still got staggered by a bright flash of light. Just look at the Radiance fight when she breaks out of the Void’s grapple.

Pre Void Heart Void:
Weak, frankly a bit of a push over by itself. Can get restrained by some fucking lumaflies that have to obey the square cube law. Not able to kill a Higher Being by itself, or frankly even at all.

So, if you honestly think un-unified Void can kill a Higher Being, YOU ARE TAKING CRAZY PILLS!

[neat kite]

but they might be talking about how ||White Lady says that Everbloom is only means to resist the Void|| why would White Lady need to resist the Pre-Void Heart Void?

[valid rapids]

man if PK died to void his corpse would have the void streaks of every other corpse killed by void

Its not this hard

[loud crater]

Because, and get this, that was the only kind of Void for literal ages.

[neat kite]

okay sure but aren't pale beings bright enough to not need ||everbloom||, ||Red Memory|| is pre-void heart, so if WL and PK have access to bright enough light, why do they need ||everbloom|| at all

[loud crater]

That’s a really weird memory in my opinion, but she very likely could have been accommodating ||Hornet’s lack of drip light.||

[neat kite]

||Witness, the first light. The only means we possess to resist that void with which our family is forever linked.
Reach forth, child grown strong. Wrest it from this remembrance. Burn yourself free from our sad fate..||

[loud crater]

Even with that dialogue, the fucking lumaflies also can resist it

She’s either just straight up lying, exaggerating, or wrong.

[neat kite]

so why did you need to get pissed at somebody asking valid question, also Void Heart's Effects aren't universal|| if knight has to personally intervene to save hornet||, so Void Heart only regionally unified Void, ||GMS|| only was dying because of continuous exposure to void, not because void is unified or whatever.

[loud crater]

I had to explain the same thing like six different times to them while they just weren’t listening in the slightest to what I and other people had been saying. And why does what the ||Void in Pharloom is doing matter?|| The PK wouldn’t have to deal with a giant fucking sea of Void, it at most would be some trace amounts of it.

[neat kite]

maybe Pale King can control his light, he was depressed his probable suicide could still be void related, as Void is also regrets and Pale King was regretful and suicidal presumably, Radiance actively needs to resist void it is not a passive thing, same could be true for PK

we don't know what killed him and we can't rule out Void

[loud crater]

What? Void isn’t regrets.

What are you on about?

[indigo venture]

Are we on "Did PK die to void?" again

[neat kite]

Confessor Jiji says so

[loud crater]

Sadly, yes.

[indigo venture]

[neat kite]

i mean, i am just saying we can't rule it out

[loud crater]

Confessor Jiji doesn’t know shit about Void.

[indigo venture]

But they can summon it tho-

[loud crater]

Respawning isn’t canon so any interactions they have with our shade aren’t cannon.

[neat kite]

she literally manipulates it lol, what are you on about

[marble birch]

Jiji only says we all leave stains of regret in the world, not what shape they take. Ghost leaves behind a Shade of Void in the event of its demise since it’s a Void construct.

[indigo venture]

Valid

[neat kite]

her abilities and knowledge are

[loud crater]

Not canon.

[loud crater]

Really? And why exactly points to that?

[neat kite]

because even in steel soul run Steel Soul Jinn acknowledges Jiji's existence, she literally buys rancid eggs for her

[neat kite]

also what is your source that normal run isn't canon?

[marble birch]

Technically Ghost being able to resurrect is canon, as the existence of the Shade is acknowledged in the Hunter’s Journal. The creature wouldn’t be marked there if the Hunter hadn’t seen it at least once.

[loud crater]

Okay, and? Just because they exist doesn’t mean they know about Void.

[loud crater]

Other Vessel’s shades.

[neat kite]

other vessel's shades have different journal entry

[loud crater]

I never said it wasn’t. I said Jiji being able to summon our shade wasn’t.

[marble birch]

Well yes but the Siblings already have a Journal page dedicated to them. Ghost’s Shade is singularly unique to it, and has its own dedicated Journal page due to its odd nature that puts it apart from its siblings.

[neat kite]

if that is case, her abilities and knowledge would still be valid

[indigo venture]

Anything related to Respawn mechanic is dubiously canon

I think thats how Dubiously is used I dunno

[loud crater]

What do you mean “unique behavior”? Until Void Heart, TK isn’t particularly different from any other vessel.

[indigo venture]

Void heary

[loud crater]

How?

[loud crater]

I’m balancing like three different lines of discussion catch me a break.

[marble birch]

I think it’s confirmed canon due to the existence of the Shade’s acknowledgement in the Journal. The Journal is a record of every beast and creature the Hunter’s ever seen in his long lifespan, so the Shade wouldn’t be there if he didn’t acknowledge it as something that could be hunted.

[neat kite]

she says it in relation to void, and she can only manipulate void/shade

[indigo venture]

Oof, mb

[indigo venture]

I mean It isnt necessarily something Hunter has ever even seen

Some are adressed by the "Narrator", Like Radiances

[loud crater]

Why does it have to be our Shade.

Why not like Broken Vessel’s shade?

[indigo venture]

No one cares about BV shade

Not even the fandom

[marble birch]

True some of the Notes aren’t entirely his, but the Shade is definitely penned by him.

[indigo venture]

Its all the lightseeds and the dead ass body

[neat kite]

she still has her abilities whether or not knight requires her services to summon shade, " How long I must have slept. This land is so much darker now, so thick with the stains of regret.

Even the air is murkier. If I sleep again, will the darkness creep in here and swallow me whole?" this dialogue doesn't require dying even first dialogue is enough to link regret to void without needing to die

[loud crater]

Is that said to have been Void? Or are you just assuming it’s Void?

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Shade

Description:
Echo of a previous life. Defeat it to retake its power and become whole.

Hunter's notes:
Each of us leaves an imprint of something when we die. A stain on the world. I don't know how much longer this kingdom can bear the weight of so many past lives...

@lexmolten used /journal name: Shade

[indigo venture]

What even is Regret in this context

What is being regretted

The failure of the Kingdom?

[loud crater]

Here’s the Hunter’s journal entry on the Shade. His notes, what he actually wrote down, aren’t regarding the actual Shade. It’s very vague. Could just be stuff in the margins.

[neat kite]

her species manipulates void, she is talking about about black stains, it is disingenuous skepticism to say that Jiji isn't talking about void

[marble birch]

Exactly this. The Hunter acknowledges this creature existing and even has something to say in relation to it. This acknowledgement proves the Shade exists not just to us, but to the world we inhabit.

[marble birch]

He directly references ‘past lives’ and calls the Shade an ‘echo of a past life’. He ruminates on how ‘we all leave something behind when we die’, which is exactly what the Shade is.

[neat kite]

vessel creation, most likely, mass infanticide

[loud crater]

That is meta text. It’s not his notes. There is a very big difference between the description and the notes.

[indigo venture]

Through the whole kingdom?

[neat kite]

source?

[neat kite]

i mean Pale King most likely regrets vessel creation, so i was talking about him

[marble birch]

Still the Notes directly reference the Shade and refers in relation to it. It is this creature he’s talking about while he waxes poetic about the nature of what we leave behind after death.

[loud crater]

None of it matches any of his other text. And you get it right after finding the creature. Which, as per his dialogue, isn’t how his journal works. You need to hunt the creature multiple times to understand his writing.

[indigo venture]

No yeah I meant when it says "The kingdom is full of regret" or sum\

[marble birch]

Some do vary in how many hunts it takes to decipher the Notes. Some enemies, like Bosses and the Shade, only need to be felled the one time.

[neat kite]

who knows?

[indigo venture]

How does Hunter even do that so that his writing is Gatekept until TK kills enough creatures

[marble birch]

I have not one clue. He’s a strange bushman of a creature.

[neat kite]

Jiji comments on Void Heart: Ooohhhh. My masters would be impressed...

Rare it is for one to come to terms with their regrets so completely, yet you seem to have managed it.
What darkness must one wade through to achieve such a thing?

Void is literally regrets manifesting, uniting it is coming terms with it

what is interesting that Bardoon notes Void Heart as strength before unseen: A strength before unseen, however Jiji says rare

[loud crater]

In those instances it could very well be because he only fought them a limited amount of times. And I will just say it, there is a certain level of gameplay in the hunters journal. You get the shade entry in steel sole mode, the permadeath mode. Some aspects are just there for us to get information and aren’t necessarily linked to his writings. That is very vague and could have just been Team Cherry writing in some bs vaguely linked to the shade in like a philosophical way. Anyways I’m done here. Enjoy your echo chamber I guess.

[marble birch]

Void is the nothingness at the bottom of the world. I think by ‘regrets’, Jiji refers to something that could be gleaned as someone’s deceased ghost or spirit, since that’s more or less what the Shade is.

[neat kite]

but she can't manipulate abstract regrets but void, in her understanding they are same but i doubt she could summon hornet's cocoon for example

[marble birch]

Not sure if it’s an ‘echo chamber’ but alright then. Oh there is actually one other major proof that the Shade is more than a gameplay element: If you at any point die to the Collector, he traps the Shade in one of his jars when you come back to his Tower. He wouldn’t have done that had he not been able to see and interact with that creature.

[neat kite]

"echo chamber" and it's his invalid arguments being countered

[marble birch]

Not so much arguments as much as debate but alright.

[neat kite]

he moved goalposts three times

[marble birch]

Well we are talking about something vague here at best, and all sides are sort of just spitballing their theorems.

[neat kite]

debate uses arguments, they have different meanings i meant what i said

[marble birch]

Plus it’s poor sport to talk poorly of someone behind their back after they’ve left.

[neat kite]

he treats it as irrefutable and definitive

[neat kite]

i am not speaking poorly, i am just making observation

proving my point

[marble birch]

I mean could the Shade be purely gameplay? Maybe, maybe not. I’m just going off of what seems to be to be deliberate proof to include acknowledgement of its existence from other characters, which treats it as acknowledged by the game’s world and its inhabitants.

At least, that’s what I am able to glean, but again lore is vague.

[indigo venture]

Damn Zer0 youve gotten way better

[marble birch]

Eh, I try.

[hot lily]

the shade is not literally regrets

[hot lily]

the shade canonically exists however respawning isn't canon, nor is it canon that the Shade can be seen apart from the Vessel (excluding Void Heart in specific endings)

[neat kite]

they are linked, at least, very linked and associated, which is my original point, but void could be regrets manifesting as coming to terms with regrets is unifying void as jiji states

[hot lily]

again you're misreading what the Hunter is actually saying, as well as the fact that the Hunter's notes in that section aren't talking about the Shade itself

it's a general comment that's broader in scope

[neat kite]

hunter?

[indigo venture]

What about Jiji

[loud crater]

See? I’m not the crazy one! Okay I’m going back to watching now.

[indigo venture]

Horf what are your closing thoughts

regarding this topic

[loud crater]

My hands are shaking for some reason, respawning isn’t canon, Jiji can’t manipulate void. This has been my state of the union address.

[indigo venture]

Sheer fury

[loud crater]

+Enraged

[neat kite]

anyways Jiji's species skillset is summoning void, and her purpose is summoning regrets, Void Heart aka unifying the void is coming to terms with regrets

[indigo venture]

@loud crater I mostly meant the "PK die to void" thing though

[loud crater]

He didn’t.

[indigo venture]

Figured

[neat kite]

what is proof that jiji can't manipulate the void?

[loud crater]

They never do it in a canon scenario.

[neat kite]

doesn't mean they can't do it

[loud crater]

Because TK can’t respawn.

[loud crater]

There is no proof that they can.

You are making a massive assumption.

[neat kite]

my point is that we can't rule out pale king dying from void

[loud crater]

My point is that PK was so bright he hurt to look at and as such would repel the small amount of weak Void that could try and kill him.

[neat kite]

you are ruling it out of nowhere, and fact that her species can, we can still deduct she does void-related stuff from fact that she notes Void Heart as coming to terms with regrets and she says her service is related to regrets

[loud crater]

Since some humans can lift over a ton(or somewhere close) that means all humans can.

[neat kite]

that requires assuming that it is automatic process, which he has no control over

[neat kite]

there is second point as well

[neat kite]

strawman...

[hot lily]

she cannot canonically summon void, as the interaction where she does so cannot chronologically happen; Void Heart coming to terms with the past is fundamentally different than what Jiji does in a scenario, which again, isn't canon

[loud crater]

Just because some individuals can do something doesn’t mean all individuals can do that.

[hot lily]

Jiji's abilities have no relevance to PK's cause of death whatsoever

[neat kite]

those are separate arguments, to clarify

[sand stump]

Is this still going on ??

[hot lily]

they are unrelated arguments

[loud crater]

Yes:( in a way at least.

[neat kite]

just because she chronologically never summons shade doesn't mean that player who does in fact see non-canonical story/timeline can't deduct information from it

[sand stump]

Player isn't canon

Wait

[neat kite]

i am referring to people who play games

[timber snow]

i mean she can probably
||sula seems to be the same kind of thing as Jiji, and she has no problem summoning void||

[sand stump]

Gtg do something so I will not say nothing

[hot lily]

are they the same species, yes or no

[timber snow]

maybe? i don’t think it matters they’re both vassals

one would expect they have similar abilities

[loud crater]

I have an orthodontist appointment so if anyone pings me they get flayed bye bye:)

[hot lily]

i would need to see what the other looks like

[neat kite]

they but they are disingenuously saying otherwise, it doesn't matter if Jiji never summons shade in non-canonical timeline, she still has those abilities

[timber snow]

should i spoiler tag that

[reef parcel]

arent they silksong related

[timber snow]

it’s not really a spoiler

[hot lily]

it's too different to say if they are related or not whether via lineage or training

[timber snow]

jst in case so mods don’t hurt me

[neat kite]

Jiji has void manipulation abilities because she states so, even in canonical timeline

[hot lily]

also isn't one of these people for...Hornet's use

[reef parcel]

MODS HURT HIM

[timber snow]

wdym by this

[neat kite]

yeah, i wanna know too

[hot lily]

or is it for someone else

[timber snow]

i mean they are both vassals, i don’t think that’s debatable

||she summons void in order to make a protector for herself iirc||

[hot lily]

does Jiji call herself a vassal

[timber snow]

no but that doesn’t really matter
SS was made after
i could point to little weavers or something and say the same thing

[hot lily]

hmm

[timber snow]

||Sula and Zi|| are a clear parallel to Jiji and Jinn

[hot lily]

even if we assume Jiji can summon Void, that's irrelevant to how PK died

[neat kite]

and?

[timber snow]

i think nika was highlighting the regret connection more than anything
now i’m not sure how that relates to PKs death, but that’s what i got from reading

feel free to correct me nika

[neat kite]

i mean he was feeling regrets, sure but to clarify, my point is we can't rule out PK dying from void, regardless of how relevant Jiji's insight is about conversation

[timber snow]

it’s unlikely

[hot lily]

we can rule it out because PK's corpse has no signs of Void death which are present on every other being who has died to it

[neat kite]

i can agree with that

[timber snow]

shit with ||everbloom being the only means to resist void throws a wrench in it|| but yea he doesn’t have any signs of a void death

[neat kite]

okay? that could be related to him having different physiology

[neat kite]

i mean it's not like he is typical bug, and he was only exposed to limited amounts of it

[timber snow]

well i mean why would TC show what dying to void looks like, then suddenly not

on like the most important character to have died by it

seems you’d want that to be known

[timber snow]

enough to kill him

which should be enough to cause eye streaks at least

[neat kite]

it can be mystery while being suggested to related to void

[hot lily]

furthermore, the presence of gaseous Void around someone says nothing about how they can die, given that multiple beings in both the CoT destroyed elevator shaft & Abyss are alive and well despite being constantly around it

[timber snow]

sure but that’s not really a satisfying answer if u ask me

[neat kite]

we don't know what amount causes death or void streaks

[timber snow]

it’s seen in all known void deaths

it’s not like a rare thing

[hot lily]

if they meant to imply that Void killed him, they would have left some form of evidence of that nature on his corpse

[neat kite]

nature of his corpse can't really be used as argument when his physiology differs from regular bug

[neat kite]

black streaks are also in non-void deaths, such as no eyes

[unborn crescent]

salubra says a charm is a dead bug
wayward compass is cornifer's dad

[hot lily]

it can be used as an argument when literally every other example of beings dying to Void have signs of that

[timber snow]

yes but it’s a consistent thing for void deaths, which is what we are looking at

[hot lily]

charms are not solely formed from dead people

[timber snow]

she says it’s one of the ways

[hot lily]

they can also be crafted

[neat kite]

well Pale King is not literally every other example though

[timber snow]

well you can’t just say hes an outlier with no evidence for void though

like what makes you think he did die from void

sure it’s a possibility but rn the evidence points to no

[hot lily]

this is what i'm trying to say

[cedar heron]

Do pe churo namen o manta dublem. Bis manama bob les. Bis bob les bera. Bera! Aklaba! Aklaba booptis. Emen ba depra da bapne nada. Lok dis. Ba! Puroktis, eh? Manta wanta wanta chokta ba na zur, wunto arewa bis na challa. Oto vi chur onomen ob wanta manta doblem. Emen ba tempra na bapa nada oktis. Munta arewa bis na challa.

[hot lily]

<@&283547423706447872> spammer/memer

[timber snow]

we don’t speak hallowspeak here srry

[neat kite]

i don't think he did, but point is we can't rule it out, i am just countering on basing everything on eye streaks, if team cherry wanted it ambiguous they wouldn't want most consistent symptoms of void deaths to be present on him, even if they decided to to go to void death route

[timber snow]

i mean eye streaks, tendrils leading into him
idk maybe some void somewhere on him

[hot lily]

we've been explaining that there are no "consistent symptoms of void death" on his corpse

[timber snow]

ambiguous doesn’t mean just guess work

there’s nothing to indicate he died from it

[neat kite]

i already said, his nature is not consistent with other bugs

[timber snow]

or maybe hell some dnd from him mentioning void
literally anything

[neat kite]

there is no indication though?

[timber snow]

huh

that’s what i said

[neat kite]

when did i say that?

[timber snow]

can confirm, i don’t think i read that

[hot lily]

oh wait i think i misread

[neat kite]

thanks i never asserted that, is she misquoting me or just misreading?

[timber snow]

misunderstandings happen all the time, simple as that

[hot lily]

okay, well...the other problem is that we are not only considering eye streaks

[neat kite]

i meant to convey that there is no indication on anything, not just possibility of void death

[timber snow]

there is though
no indication of void death
(and while yes, SS does kinda just spit in the face of it, but it’s worth mentioning) a lighthouse full of lumaflies could pacify the void for a little

i think PK would’ve been fine

the biggest implication that i got from PK

[neat kite]

i really want to know how is Pale King's power completely erased, there has to some phenomenon to caused that

[timber snow]

is that he killed himself

[timber snow]

killed himself

[neat kite]

isn't his physiology immortal, how would he kill himself?

[timber snow]

hes a God bro
maybe he just decided to stop living, maybe he had a spell for it
i don’t think the “how” actually matters more than the why, yk?

[neat kite]

what indication exists for that?

[neat kite]

how matters a lot to me

[timber snow]

a little bit of inference
he sacrificed everything for his kingdom, even his own kids
when everything still failed he couldn’t bear it and fled to the dream realm, and with nothing but a shining palace full of the memories of his servants, there was nothing else for him to do

[timber snow]

do you want a step by step guide on how he did it or

[hot lily]

he lost the will to live and found no reason to continue, so he killed himself

[neat kite]

i mean i just want to point out that we aren't applying same standards of evidence to Suicide explanation than Void explanation, relying on inference on one while requiring evidence for other is very inconsistent

[timber snow]

well void deaths are very physical

[neat kite]

yeah...

[timber snow]

we can see the signs

it’s not like some hidden thing

[marble birch]

I mean, the Shade is acknowledged beyond just us hitting it to reclaim it. If you die to the Collector, he traps it in one of his jars after your demise. Jiji comments on your interactions with the creature, and the Hunter acknowledges its existence in his notes.

[timber snow]

like the mentality one would need to kill themselves
like those are just two completely different arguments

[marble birch]

Other characters are shown to be cognizant to the Shade and even interact with it.

[hot lily]

it isn't 2

have you not read the last 30 minutes of conversation

[timber snow]

well that’s not a good way to engage in a conversation

your points were already addressed

if you scroll up

like serra said

[marble birch]

Remember: 98% of what is said about the King is exaggerated or embellished by his subjects. He’s an infamous recluse who was very rarely, if ever, seen in person.

[neat kite]

i mean his case might be little different, if void is regrets as Jiji says, it is possible Regrets consumed him(nature of his void death would be unique enough to justify not having void streaks), also Jiji's statements on this are canon, External Light can't repel Internal Regrets you know, and this explanation is most poetic if we know his death is both suicide and void death

[hot lily]

<@&283547423706447872> hostile/trolling behavior

[timber snow]

“you son of a bitch i’m in”
actually pretty interesting

[marble birch]

Like for being a God, the Pale King scarcely if ever bothered to meet with anyone other than likely his Queen, Retainers, and possible meetings with the Great Knights.

[hidden kite]

gets mod pinged
fucking dies

[neat kite]

they weren't even hostile or trolling, they just didn't want to bother reading it

[marble birch]

Come to think of it, that reclusivity is the purpose of the King’s Idols, since he very rarely if ever showed up in person, so his people offered worship to him through these.

[hot lily]

they were, because they stated that "it was fun seeing you tweak" before leaving the server

[neat kite]

true

[neat kite]

i mean they were after your accusation

i don't want get into it

[marble birch]

It’s possible that so much information about the King is an embellishment since 99% of Hallownest’s population spent their whole lives worshipping a liege no one ever actually saw.

[neat kite]

i wanted to propose this theory of mine, but i generally had inconsistent experience regarding personal theories

[marble birch]

Albeit despite this, his image and iconography is absolutely everywhere, so there’s constant reminders and hints of his presence and existence, even if the God himself never enters view.

[gleaming vine]

Do we think the radiance was aware of the city of steel?

[manic karma]

If the embrace the void ending is canon, then what happend with hornet and THK after the cutscene?

[loud crater]

Nothing probably.

[coral sapphire]

he does after you pick up the white fragment

[split compass]

they fight for a little bit, but then they're friends

then SS starts and THK is left back in Hallownest wondering where the hell Hornet went

[hot lily]

it's unclear if ||EtV or DNM is canon to Silksong, it could go either way||

[loud crater]

Fuck it, both.

[signal marlin]

[gleaming basin]

hello new community

dead community

I wonder why though

[mighty dove]

It’s likely left open on purpose

[indigo venture]

I wonder why

[indigo venture]

Not on the context where the message implied it was said no

[mighty dove]

It would fucking nuke the lore fans

[indigo venture]

But he does say it at some point

[indigo venture]

I mean ||VGFocus does look different, so maybe its like, an DNM VGFocus||

I doubt it'll ever get an actual proper answer though

[blissful crest]

?

[indigo venture]

?

[blissful crest]

Oh nvm

misread

[indigo venture]

Tf

[mighty dove]

Thankfully

[indigo venture]

Probably

Also Hi Shush

[mighty dove]

Howdy

I need to actually finish HK (and by this I mean get the last two achievements)

[indigo venture]

Wanna move to #hk-general ?

[mighty dove]

I could

[primal bridge]

hey so I'm nutty over video game music theory so why do we think the fungal wastes bgm has the main/thk leitmotif, is it just a case of putting the main leitmotif everywhere because it's the main leitmotif, or is there anything deeper to it

most of the other themes that have that motif are relating to thk, major lore involving them, or the general theme of knights, I just can't parse why it's in fungal wastes other than because tc felt like adding it

[honest patio]

pv eat mushroom

[primal bridge]

true dat

[warm cosmos]

Aren’t there lore tablets and ruins around Fungal?

[primal bridge]

Those lore tablets just are about the mantises doing their thing and the mushroom people really enjoying being a hive mind

[warm cosmos]

dang

I mean the wiki talks about how the mushrooms accepted the pale king as ruler, does that maybe help?

[primal bridge]

Pretty much everyone except deepnest, the mantises, and the hive accepted his rule but you don’t hear it in greenpath or anything

You don’t even get it in city of tears which according to lemm houses the only remaining record of thk

[fiery holly]

Anyone know why godhome has access to the nightmare realm during the NKG fight?

[indigo venture]

NKG/Grimm attend the call

[twin kiln]

What part

[primal bridge]

you can hear it plucked out on strings partway through

It's fairly overt if you know what you're listening for, it's got all the right notes and timing afaik

may be hearing a little off but honestly I don't really think I am

[forest hearth]

it doesnt have much of a connection to tk but some connection to pk

it could be cause pk has forever changed fungal wastes, as it became a path for bugs to get to the city of tears, and the diplomacy he employed with the mantises forever changed the ecosystem

the giant dead mushroom person was also possibly somewhat connected to pk since they comment on his foresight

[steady shuttle]

do vessels lack gender due to void being a substance and that substances cannot have a gender assigned to it?

[split compass]

there was an old statement by TC early on in HK development about the Knight being genderless, but not much beyond that fact

[steady shuttle]

exactly...

[split compass]

it was a while ago - personally I feel that TC was conflating sex and gender, with the vessels being sexless and therefore also genderless under that view

currently, I think people's view is that there's no reason why vessels could not have a gender identity

they are Void beings, but they are still beings - individuals

[signal marlin]

its not really exactly, as the question is about the ontology of vessels and TC has only commented on TK and THK

[verbal crag]

What never made sense to me is that Hornet says the knight is born from two voids, one from the litteral void and the other from losing memories because he travveled outside hallownest. But how can that be when the knight is a higher being? there are many creatures like the mantis tribe who aren't higher beings but were able to have higher thought without PK granting them that

[subtle linden]

The Knight isn't a Higher Being, but rather a Vessel

[whole arrow]

knight isnt a higher being

[whole arrow]

the only one that lost memories is quirrell i think and i think he was like a sleeper agent

[whole arrow]

knight is not born from two voids, knight is born void and god

burning question - why did PK needed to train HK when the dreamer protections were already impossible to achieve?

because of the training PK has accidentally made a bonding with the hollow knight.

monomon already had extra protections on since quirrel was a sleeper agent AND you need the quirrels mask in order to summon monomon. although shade dash would considered be another protection, cornifier somehow found a way to get besides shade dash.

lurien is protected by watcher knights, and herrah is protected by beast den and spikes ( and also the nature of deepnest )

no normal vessel or any bug could get through these layer of protections

and even if so the bugs in hallownest would know its for the sake of the kingdom so they wouldnt even try

so why the training?

[covert brook]

The thing is that an untrained vessel cant seal away the radiance

[normal crag]

knight is the child of 2 higher beings what are yall talking about dude

😭

[covert brook]

When the pale king was training thk it was also training it mentally too in a way

[whole arrow]

so are you saying the knight is a higher being or are you correcting that the knight isnt made from void

because boy im pretty sure he is born from void

or i guess

[whole arrow]

ah okay

[normal crag]

knight is made of void and a higher being. dude, the knight reads tablets that say "higher beings, these words are for you alone." the knight can also focus soul with ease, which is extremely difficult for non higher beings, as exhibited by the soul sanctum.

focusing soul literally slowly kills non higher beings

[whole arrow]

it doesnt?

the only reason soul sanctum got killed was because of radiance i think

[normal crag]

"mind swells, mind aches"
-soul twister dream nail dialogue

doesnt that imply slow death

[whole arrow]

oh damn

[normal crag]

that their brain literally swells

[whole arrow]

i guess so

[normal crag]

anyways

[whole arrow]

but are you implying the million of vessels are a higher being?

[normal crag]

...yes thats exactly what im saying lol

all vessels can focus, as shown by the pure vessel focus attack

[whole arrow]

do you think millions of higher beings makes sense??

[normal crag]

the knight is a small baby, just like the other vessels, and can focus soul. all of the vessels are the children of two higher beings.

[whole arrow]

higher beings are gods

[normal crag]

is that your only argument

[whole arrow]

alright whatever

[normal crag]

it makes sense because

1. vessels are the children of 2 higher beings
2. they can focus soul with ease

so yes that is exactly what that means

[indigo venture]

The original children would be Higher Beings

I dunno about the Vessels themselves

[normal crag]

pls read the rest of my argument

[indigo venture]

Yeah I did

[normal crag]

the vessels can focus soul guys 😞

[indigo venture]

Because of their body

The body of a Higher Being

[normal crag]

non higher beings cant do that 😞

[normal crag]

then what makes them not a higher being?

[indigo venture]

Which is why I said the original children would be Higher Beings

[indigo venture]

The body is dead

The vessels are just an imprint of will OF The original higher beings (The Original Children)

Which is why I think the vessels themselves arent quite higher beings

an argument can be made for the vessels though, I think

[normal crag]

peak bro 🔥 i still think theyre higher beings but i like your opinion

[spice pumice]

Snail shamans?

[normal crag]

oh yeah that sorta destroys my whole argument

[indigo venture]

Snail Shamans are Higher Beings

[spice pumice]

Ok now that’s just insane

[indigo venture]

Trust me

[spice pumice]

No thanks

[indigo venture]

Good

Regardless, regarding the "Are the Vessels Higher Beings" My take is that theyre not

They are using the body of A Higher being (Original Children of PK and WL), but what they truly are (Shade) is not a higher being

the same way Kingsmoulds couldnt be considered Higher Beings, they are just imprints of the will of one

[normal crag]

on that note, do we think the shade lord constitutes a higher beings?

[indigo venture]

Void Given Focus? I mean yeah

Void Given Form was already a Higher Being

An stronger version would be a Higher Being by all means, "God of gods" and all that

[normal crag]

based on your previous argument, hows the void given form a higher being? is it because it has the void heart?

[indigo venture]

Yes

It is because it has Voidheart

[normal crag]

so the knight is a higher beings, but the other vessels are not?

[indigo venture]

Thats what makes GS take notice and pay attention to TK

[indigo venture]

With voidheart, yes

[normal crag]

coolness

[spice pumice]

Shade lord is different, it’s many different shades of children of two higher beings and lots of void so it can be seen as a higher being

[vast marten]

Is nkg the same person as troupe master grim like how soul tyrant is soul master

[normal crag]

wouldnt that make regular vessels higher beings though?

[normal crag]

yup

after killing nkg, grimm leaves, implying that hes dead.

[spice pumice]

Idk man it’s confusing

[vast marten]

Psure he leaves cuz the ritual ended,no need to stay in dirtmouth

Also does divine stay after you beat nkg

[normal crag]

holdup ive got something for this

i cant find it wait

found it

"burn the father, feed the child"
"burn away the nightmare king"

after defeating NKG, (burning away the father/nightmare king) grimmchild gains a level (feeding the child.)

so yes, troupe master grimm and nkg are the same person

[crude moth]

I mean that should be obvious since you hit Grimm with Dream nail to fight NKG

[normal crag]

yeah but sometimes i worry that isnt enough for some people so

[remote bramble]

The knight is a higher being when they get voidheart

[agile dew]

What exactly is the voidheart

[mighty dove]

It’s a new charm created using Kingsoul as a base that gives the user the ability to assert its will over the Void

And of course becomes a part of its user

[manic karma]

well i guess the ETV is cuz ||we literally se the void given focus in sister of the void in silksong||

[mighty dove]

It's still unclear

[manic karma]

so i guess they jyst had a tea party or shit

[hot lily]

not necessarily because ||both VGForm and VGFocus are shown||

[indigo venture]

Grimm gets eaten after the NKG fight yeah

[sour gull]

Awh why is this chat dead

Why does no one yap about theories anymore

[verbal crag]

Sure he's a vessel but his parrents are both higher beings. So a higher being, thrown into the void. A vessel but also a higher being. One doesn't exclude the other. And even if he isn't technically a higher being his herretige is far higher than say some lower bug who is advanced enough to have higher thought without PK

[indigo venture]

I disagree

[verbal crag]

Well wathever i think both our opinions could work. Its left vague on purpose

[agile dew]

Eaten by who

[subtle linden]

That's not how it works, I'm pretty sure

[indigo venture]

Grimmchild

the thing about "Vessels" being higher beings is that I somewhat agree, THE BODY is of a Higher being

The shade isnt, Its an imprint, imprinted by the will of a Higher Being

[subtle linden]

The Pale King was originally a Wyrm, who are Pale Beings, the higher of Higher Beings, and he only became the PK after his Wyrm body died and he came out of the Cast-Off Shell

[verbal crag]

What is your point?

he doesn't stop being a pale being after that and the white lady is also a pale being

[agile dew]

Arent wyrms already legendary creatures

[subtle linden]

I'm saying that he was born as a Wyrm. The Knight, however, was not.

[verbal crag]

What does that matter? he is still a higher being, a pale one

[agile dew]

Why is there no superior being from the void like pk and radiance

[indigo venture]

The Original Children of the Pale King and White Lady would be Higher Beings

The Vessels are not said children, but they are using the bodies of them

[indigo venture]

There just isnt

[subtle linden]

The Void IS the superior being, as the Void and Radiance are mortal enemies of each other

[indigo venture]

Ancient Enemies

[agile dew]

Why doesnt it rule hallownest

[indigo venture]

Its uninified

[subtle linden]

But their shells are taken over and consumed by the Void. The Knight isn't technically a Higher Being, but rather a different sort of divine entity

[subtle linden]

It's mindless

[agile dew]

How is it radiance enemy if it cant fight and is ununified

[subtle linden]

It has to be given a shape and form by unifying it, which is what the player does when they obtain Voidheart and can be seen in the Godhome ending as the Shade Lord

[subtle linden]

Ideological enemies. The Void is darkness and the Radiance is light.

[verbal crag]

Okay i get your point and if that is true, its still weird the knight has amnesia. Since he is a divine entity. and if one makes the argument he cant lose it because he is already void then it is pointless to say born from two voids by Hornet

[agile dew]

Ok, cyanide can kill me butif it just sits in its bottle and does nothing, that doesn make it my my enemy

[subtle linden]

The Knight has amnesia because it left the boundaries of Hallownest. The Pale King gave the residents higher thought and sentience, making them conscious. It loses it's effect when someone leaves the boundaries of Hallownest and can be seen with Quirrel

[verbal crag]

And the original childrenn being taken over also is iffy for me because vessels/shades clearly show emotional bonding in both games. our player character helps many npcs when he deffinitly didn't need to, The path of pain cutscene and the fact that the shade lord/the knight saves hornet, going against the very nature of void itself (void naturally wants to consume soul) if the knight/shadelord was purely made of void it coudn''t do the above things and you could even argue that they coudn't move or fight

[subtle linden]

That's different. The cyanide isn't trying to actively harm you. The Void and Radiance represent two completely different and mutually exclusive things. As I said before, the Void represents darkness and the Radiance represents light. These two things cannot coexist, and so they are enemies.

[agile dew]

I think i get it

[verbal crag]

Yes but there are civilizations in hallownest predating the arival of the PK who had higher thought. Deepnest, mantis tribe etc. Creatures not relying on a higher being to have higher thought. If these creatures, who are clearly on a lower level than the knights heritage (void or not) can have higher thought without the PK its weird that the knight can't

[subtle linden]

Which is exactly the point the game is trying to make. The Pale King wanted to make a being that was completely hollow. "No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering."
This is exactly what he tried with the vessels, and ultimately the Hollow Knight. The White Lady says that THK was tarnished by an idea instilled, that idea being love. The Pale King raised the Hollow Knight, and they eventually developed a bond for each other.

[verbal crag]

So there is still some form of sentience left within the vessels. a idea cant tarnish pure nothigness

[subtle linden]

Heritage doesn't matter, I don't think. They're weren't made by the Pale King, nor did they accept his rule. The bees of The Hive, the Mantises of Mantis Village, and the Weavers of Deepnest were all autonomous societies.

[agile dew]

Is the radiance death ending the canonical ending?

[subtle linden]

But the Mosskin of Greenpath, the Mushrooms of Fungal Wastes accepted the King's rule, which is why I think they became dependent on him for their intelligence.

[subtle linden]

Team Cherry has stated that there is no "true ending", but yes, the Dream No More ending is widely considered to be the canonical ending.

[agile dew]

Its obviously not the sealed siblings ending, as silksong exists

[limber saffron]

Anybody know why the voidlings when you climb up to the radiance follow yu

[subtle linden]

They're your siblings trying to help you

[limber saffron]

Oh alr

[sour gull]

The ending thing is all canon silksong's just the continuation of one of the potential endings

[hot lily]

you have stated various (unintentional) falsehoods

the Knight's mind is not the result of PK's beacon

TK is not mindless

and THK didn't fail because of an emotional bond, not to mention we have no idea if it even reciprocated what PK may or may not have given it

[hot lily]

the Knight does not start as a Higher Being, however upon obtaining Void Heart, it becomes one

[subtle linden]

I never said the Knight was mindless, though

[subtle linden]

But the cutscene in the Path of Pain. It shows the two of them bonding

[hot lily]

yeah that wasn't meant for you, sorry

[subtle linden]

np

[hot lily]

no? nothing in the scene itself necessitates that interpretation; THK itself never does or says anything that requires an emotional bond as an explanation

[subtle linden]

it's just my interpretation

[hot lily]

yes and that interpretation is flawed, is my point

[subtle linden]

Okay, what's the correct interpretation, then?
I don't mean to sound condescending, just curious

[hot lily]

the more logically rigorous interpretation is that, as can be found from examining the words of the White Lady, neither her or PK had a definitive method to determine a Vessel's purity; the fact that THK failed means that it was never pure, as a pure vessel would not be able to fail

both her and PK assumed all vessels were pure from birth only to fail later on...which isn't the case

[subtle linden]

I've always thought that climbing out of the Abyss was their test of purity.

The Hollow Knight did it, and thus he was "pure"

Of course, we know now that that doesn't work

[hot lily]

if that was indeed their test, it's meaningless

[regal orchid]

Wait so it’s not what everyone believes, that it had an idea instilled into it during training? I had no idea

[marble birch]

There’s a sign supports this in the Birthplace cutscene. After Ghost makes it to the top platform and the King has his back turned, the Pure Vessel stopped for a moment and acknowledged its sibling. It looked back, which means it chose to do this instead of blindly following its father for a moment. If the King had seen this hesitation, it would have exposed the Vessel as impure.

[regal orchid]

That

Makes so much sense

[hot lily]

yes; what PK might have thought happened, is not necessarily the same as what actually happened

[regal orchid]

Ahhhh. Yh, looking at it, tha does make sense. I wonder then: during the PoP cutscene we see, would PK have realised that it had an idea instilled into it?

[hot lily]

that moment may have been when he came to that conclusion, if that indeed is what he thought

[regal orchid]

But then why did he continue the training? THK wasn’t fully grown yet, surely he could’ve waited for a different one? Or, I wonder, it took so long to get THK that he went ‘screw it, we go on’

[indigo venture]

PK may have only thought "Man did I ruin it at this moment" In retrospective

[fiery mortar]

it's scary to think that vessels have no mind and will

they dont control anything

like in all boss fights

[hot lily]

False

[fiery mortar]

the knight is just a shell walking around because we control it and swinging it's nail inaware of anything that they are doing

[fiery mortar]

not all vessels

[hot lily]

the player does not canonically exist as a distinct entity

[hot lily]

still false

[signal marlin]

this really isnt inconsistent with what PK wanted

[agile bough]

pure of heart ❤️

[fallen gazelle]

I just have a small Q soz if it already came up or is obvious but
If the knight fell to the bottom of the Abyss after the HK made it first, how does he later appear at the top of hallownest climbing down to Dirtmouth?

[indigo venture]

It was a long time ago durign the Birthplace memory

After that TK and other vessels escaped the Abyss

In TKs case it wandered the wastelands until called back, where the game starts

[wanton zephyr]

Once again arguing with someone that Shade Lord never existed before

[fallen gazelle]

Ohhhh that's why there's a corpse near hornet 1

[wanton zephyr]

Is this ever going to end

[indigo venture]

Void Given Focus didnt exist before TK made it

Then you leave the argument

[wanton zephyr]

They are using that dumb shade cloak statue and is being all like
“If it never existed how can a random fossil call it that”

Hm
If someone have command over shades

What do you call that

[split compass]

either
A) it was a concept that existed at the time of the AC, and that idea has emerged from the memory of the corpse now that one has actually appeared
or
B) it's not actually a corpse, and its acknowledging TK as something that truly was never even conceived of before

[mighty dove]

Moreso the ending that ||leads into Silksong alongside EtV|| than the only canon one

Since an ending can be canon without leading to a sequel

[loud crater]

||I’ve always viewed it that ETV/DNM were the ones could lead to Silksong’s “true ending” while THK ending would lead to her just killing GMS. Sealed Siblings, eh I’m not sure about that one.||

[mighty dove]

Ehhh maybe

[hot lily]

||THK ending isn't compatible because TK doesn't have Void Heart||

[loud crater]

Yeah.

But it is with just ||base Silksong ending.||

||Not Lost Lace one.||

[hot lily]

no, because ||if TK wasn't alive, SoTV couldn't happen in the first place||

[loud crater]

? ||I’m talking about when Hornet just goes up and binds GMS? Is one of us missing something?||

[sand stump]

wjats tyhe topic?

[loud crater]

I dunno.

[mighty dove]

Silksong

[loud crater]

OH GREAT HEAVENS!

[static pine]

i think the true ending of hollow knight is the one where knight turns into a shade and beats up the radince but dose NOT turn into that giant void monster

[split compass]

there's only one thing that will settle it

||Hollow Knight appearing in Silksong||

that's gonna be wild if/when it happens

(my money's on 'when')

[hot lily]

there is no true ending, however the only 2 that are compatible with Silksong are ||DNM and ETV||

[whole arrow]

dmn and etv is more canon into the storyline

unless if team cherry is looking through alternative timelines

then idk

i just think dmn and etv is just canon into the storyline

[signal marlin]

all endings are canon and TC explictly uses a player relative canon

[old sentinel]

It's impossible to get ETV without getting one of the other endings beforehand, so I'm pretty sure that in lore that would mean that TK can control time/ timelines to a certain degree

[signal marlin]

thats really not true no

[old sentinel]

Ik it's just for gameplay reasons but I'm still headcanoning it

[sand stump]

No it's not impossible 😭

You can get etv even if you've never gone into the black egg temple

[charred stirrup]

im writing a sort of kinda fanfic for hk what are some facts that should be mentioned in it, (its only like 700 word limit)

[atomic epoch]

facts as in, important lore details from the game?

[indigo venture]

A lot of abortion

[loud crater]

I thought all(but maybe ||Sealed Siblings|| could lead into it, ones like THK ending just couldn’t go into an ending where ||Hornet survives the Void||?

[loud crater]

Buzzsaws everywhere.

[bronze isle]

I hope the little knight gets either into silksong or a 3rd game with him and hornet

Or zoteboat

[floral mist]

Hmmm

[cinder egret]

Imagine if they added a feature where you can play multiplayer(ik there is a mod to that)

[still gulch]

So Pale King built the soul sanctum right?

[sand stump]

Like, probably not by hand but he might've ordered it to be built

But he definitely approved of it being built

[still gulch]

Yeah what I mean

[indigo venture]

For real?

Can you show

[sand stump]

Well If you want proof it ain't definite

Its just off of the thing that hes

1. A king and was able to disprove some of the actions and works of the Soul Sanctum
   and
2. is a king in general

[split compass]

I doubt the Sanctum would be as extensive as it is without his approval
it probably began as a benevolent enterprise - an academy of magical research is pretty standard for a fantasy kingdom
then it went evil later

[agile dew]

It wasnt exactly evil

Soul master and pk values just didnt align

[wraith trellis]

Didn't they kidnap nail shamans to attain immortality?

[indigo venture]

It was to attain a form to fight off the Infection iirc

[split compass]

oh, it was definitely evil in the end

they killed a looot of people

but that was because they came under the influence of the Radiance

no way they were doing that to begin with, or PK would've stopped it entirely

[indigo venture]

I mean killing a lot of people is bad

[wraith trellis]

It was because he believed it would help of against the infection

[indigo venture]

Imagine if it was a lot of unbirthed children though

[wraith trellis]

But at that point he was already getting manipulated

[indigo venture]

Only a monster would do that

[split compass]

PK: "There's only room enough for one mass murderer in this kingdom, Soul Master."

[indigo venture]

Yak what do you think of PK

would you call him evil

[subtle linden]

Well intentioned but ultimately evil

[wraith trellis]

Speaking of the pale king

[split compass]

no, though I would call some of his actions evil
as well as desperate, even tragically necessary

[wraith trellis]

How do you think he died

[split compass]

despair

[indigo venture]

Grief

[pure inlet]

Sad

[indigo venture]

Suicide?

[split compass]

sadicide

[indigo venture]

Void

[wraith trellis]

Chat

[hot lily]

?

[wraith trellis]

Did the traitor lord become bigger because of the infection or was he always like that

[split compass]

infection

[wraith trellis]

I see

So he was like his sisters then?

Another interesting thing is why is he the only dude

[split compass]

most likely - you can see a 4th broken throne next to theirs, it looks to have been the same size as the others

as for him being the only dude, well, might just be how things turned out

[wraith trellis]

Also

How is tuk unaffected by the infection

[split compass]

guess again

(though you only see them overcome like this in Steel Soul mode)

[wraith trellis]

Yeah in normal mode she's just immune

Also where do u think jiji is in steel soul

[split compass]

not necessarily immune, just not infected yet
bugs become infected when they succumb to temptations in their dreams
if they don't succumb, they won't get infected - depends on the bug really

[split compass]

good question
I guess the same place Steel Soul Jinn is in regular mode

[wraith trellis]

Yeah but during the entirety of the game in normal mode nothing really happens to her

[split compass]

that's true of many bugs

[wraith trellis]

Do they have like a secret place inside their house

[split compass]

maybe~!

[wraith trellis]

I feel like majority of said bugs have reasonable explanations

[wraith trellis]

Also are they like roommates?

[split compass]

well, my theory is that if you are focused on something in the waking world, you're less susceptible to temptations in dreams
the nailmasters have their training, cornifer has his mapping, etc.
maybe tuk searching through trash is keeping them from dreaming all that much

[wraith trellis]

Then what changed in steel soul? That made her lose control?

[split compass]

there's definitely a connection between Jiji and Jinn
the correct term is 'vassal' I think

[split compass]

she seemed to have been wanting to find someone - maybe she lost hope that she would

[wraith trellis]

Also in your theory was sly not focused on anything? Because when we he find him he shows signs of infection and would have succumb if not for us

[wraith trellis]

I see

That's kinda sad

[split compass]

Sly seems to have been caught up in dreams of people from his past

he mentions Oro and Esmy - Oro left to train on his own, and we know nothing about Esmy

but she likely isn't part of his life anymore

[wraith trellis]

I see that makes sense

Another thing I'd like to discuss is the five great knights

Or just hegemol

Like was he already dead when the maggot found him? Or is he still alive during the game?

[split compass]

we don't know for sure, personally I think the maggot killed him

[sand stump]

whatrs the topic?

[split compass]

but the maggot mentions he was sleeping

[sand stump]

oh Hegemol?

[split compass]

and the other maggots seem to think their dead brother is also just asleep

so maybe maggots can't tell

TC teased that he might be able to survive without his shell, but who can trust them

[wraith trellis]

How so?

[split compass]

the False Knight's line after you beat the dream version just puts me in mind of confession

When I saw that Knight... sleeping... safe in his big armoured shell...
It wasn't madness that drove me to it... I just wanted it...

[wraith trellis]

Do we know anything about hegemol?

Aside from his armor

And what ogrim mentions

[split compass]

apparently he was surprisingly soft-spoken for one so large, according to Sheo

[wraith trellis]

So you think he was still alive and was then murdered by a maggot?

[split compass]

yeah

[wraith trellis]

But how could the maggot damage him with his armor?

[wraith trellis]

Also do you think there's any particular reason why sheo is the only one who is no longer a nailmaster

[split compass]

dunno
the helm opens though
maybe he left it open while he was asleep
and the maggot hit him with a rock or something

[wraith trellis]

Was the maggot infected at that point?

[split compass]

I think Sheo just felt like moving on from nailmastery
pursuing some new passion

[split compass]

the maggot claims that they weren't
"It wasn't madness that drove me to it... I just wanted it..."

[wraith trellis]

Also does godseeker mode bring out their peak form?

[wraith trellis]

It was just his ego?

[split compass]

I guess - he claims he wanted the strength to protect the other maggots

[wraith trellis]

Because if they do would that mean the current sheo is stronger than he was when he was a nailmaster?

[wraith trellis]

Weren't the maggots infected anyways?

[split compass]

the 'gods' in godhome do seem to be the 'peak' version of beings
their strongest selves, 'tuned to perfection' or however Godseeker puts it

[wraith trellis]

What did he really do?

[wraith trellis]

So that's pretty cool that sheo got stronger from painting

[split compass]

artists are the most powerful beings of all

[split compass]

I guess? They seem to be by the time TK finds them
Maybe it was more about protecting them physically

[wraith trellis]

Anyways another knight I want to talk about is zemer

Did she leave her post because of grief? And what killed her lover?

[hot lily]

we don't know why she left the 5GK, though her lover was notably forbidden from interacting with her

[split compass]

I don't think we know exactly what drove her into her solitude

but her kingdom fell to ruin and her lover died

so those were probably factors

[wraith trellis]

Did she leave after that happened?

[split compass]

I guess
I don't know if she left exactly, like officially quitting
it's more like everything just fell apart

[wraith trellis]

Is zemer already dead when you find her?

[loud crater]

No.

[hot lily]

no

[split compass]

doesn't seem like it

[wraith trellis]

Because it's kinda funny that she just vaporizes into nothing

[split compass]

she just nopes out of existence by choice

[hot lily]

we don't know what actually happens to her to be fair

[split compass]

'I'm done with all this'
zooormrmmmm

[loud crater]

“Aight fuck this I’m heading out”-Ze’mer

[wraith trellis]

Now to the topic of another knight is dryya

[hot lily]

and we also don't know if she does that willfully or if it was something else

[wraith trellis]

Did the traitor Lord just stop attacking because of dryya? Even though she's already dead?

[split compass]

it seems like he was in the middle of attacking with the rest of the traitors right when TK shows up

[wraith trellis]

Like he was gonna launch another attack?

[pure inlet]

He’s too fat to fit through the hole

I think he/by extension Rad are fine with the current circumstances as long as WL is incapacitated and unable to help

[split compass]

dryya might have died offscreen in the middle of TK and Cloth's fight, for all we know

[pure inlet]

With any access to her blocked off by him

[wraith trellis]

You think she could have just died?

[split compass]

maybe, it's hard to tell

there's no Essence ghost, but those don't always show up anyway

[wraith trellis]

That's kinda sad then

Now on to the other thing

Which is isma

How did she die

[split compass]

technically, she might not be dead

more like she took root

and is a plant now

[untold stirrup]

it can be some sort of eternal sleep

[wraith trellis]

She turned into a plant?

[split compass]

seems like it

[wraith trellis]

What caused her to do that?

[split compass]

who knows

she was pretty leafy-looking even before that, going by her silhouette in White Defender's dream

might have been some kind of plant-bug, there's a few types of creatures like that

[untold stirrup]

she can be related to WL

[wraith trellis]

White lady?

[untold stirrup]

yup

[wraith trellis]

She just turned into a plant?

[split compass]

or was already a plant, and just sort of took root and started growing

white lady is pretty plant-like (root), there's the mosskin...
there could be all kinds in this world

[wraith trellis]

Why do you think her dream nail dialogue is "ogrim there's no time"?

[untold stirrup]

who was ogrim?

in the lore

[split compass]

ogrim is the dung defender

he was sweet on isma

she might have felt the same

so her dnd is her basically lamenting how the two never had the time to explore their feelings

[wraith trellis]

What happened to her that caused her to go into "took root"?

[pure inlet]

It originally paired with some dnd that was like “Isma…so strong…teach me”

But that was cut when they added white defender

[pure inlet]

Probably a natural thing in her life cycle

[wraith trellis]

Oh you think that just happened naturally?

[pure inlet]

Probably

[untold stirrup]

or mummification

that someone like lock her in root

[wraith trellis]

So there was nothing that could have prevented that?

[untold stirrup]

maybe

[split compass]

I can't really think of any phenomenon that might cause it otherwise

could be what happens when her kind dies or reaches a certain point in their lifespan

[untold stirrup]

or she was protecting

[wraith trellis]

Protecting what

[untold stirrup]

idk maybe her tear

[split compass]

maybe the grove was special to her

[wraith trellis]

Wouldn't the tear come after her death?

[wraith trellis]

Speaking of her Grove why is there a bunch of acid

[neat kite]

i think so too, she might have been same species as ||Nyleth||, ||Nyleth|| might actually be her statue which would explain both Isma and ||Nyleth|| perfectly, it seems that statue was modified

[untold stirrup]

it can be related to lake of unn

[wraith trellis]

Who is that

[split compass]

some people have remarked on this, there is a bit of a resemblance

[wraith trellis]

What does that mean

[neat kite]

Isma might even be related species to ||Nyleth||

[wraith trellis]

Oh a silksong character

[untold stirrup]

is that some sort of rook specie?

*root

[split compass]

she might have caused the acid - the grove is said to be the source of the 'acid blight'
and it would follow, since her tear gives protection from it

[neat kite]

true, they have similar characteristics, but i think petrified ||nyleth||'s body could be modified to be a fountain

[wraith trellis]

So when she took root the acid came from her and filled up the Grove?

[wraith trellis]

Looks like a plant

[untold stirrup]

acid can be her blood or something that keeps her alive

[split compass]

maybe - might even have been some desperate strategy to try and protect the kingdom
fill the water with acid to prevent the Infected from moving around as freely

[neat kite]

Root species seem different that Plant-life species Isma seems to be part of

[wraith trellis]

I see

And now

All that's left of the five great knights

Is Ogrim

[split compass]

the best knight

but i'm going for a walk 👋

[wraith trellis]

Aight peace

[untold stirrup]

bye

[neat kite]

bye

[indigo venture]

I have question

So BVs essence spirit

[wraith trellis]

Who

[indigo venture]

Is it taking the form of the Vessel, or of the original child of PK and WL

[indigo venture]

Broken Vessel

[wraith trellis]

So who is lost kin?

I think he's the vessel before fully succumbing to the infection hence why he's stronger

[untold stirrup]

he is bigger that can mean he was hollow knight before hollow knight

[wraith trellis]

What do u mean

[indigo venture]

No

[untold stirrup]

like he should be the first one that contains radiance

[green pilot]

No..

[wraith trellis]

No

[untold stirrup]

ok

[indigo venture]

Damn you gave up so easily

[green pilot]

Good thing

[untold stirrup]

idk in new here

• I'm

[green pilot]

They would be not only fighting an uphill battle it would downright be an 89% degree steep wall

[indigo venture]

Tytus

can you asnwer my question

[wraith trellis]

The original child is long gone bro

[indigo venture]

Yeah but its its body

Thats why I asked

[green pilot]

Hmmm

I mean aren't the vessels and the pk and WL children the same thing appearance wise?

[wraith trellis]

They should look the same

Only difference would be that the vessels are filled with void

[green pilot]

Yeah the only thing that changes is their innards

Atleast

That's what we think since we have no information on that

[untold stirrup]

What if he has only really long cloak?

[green pilot]

That cloak could be a part of its body

There is some wierd stuff with their cloaks 🤷‍♂️

[hot lily]

topic?

[hot lily]

it is

[green pilot]

For everything we know (not including silksong) this could very well be how the vessels look before void which isn't very useful

[hot lily]

no this is very apparently after Void

[wraith trellis]

Should be the vessel

?

[untold stirrup]

They existed before void?

[hot lily]

yes

[wraith trellis]

The child

They were originally just children before getting tossed into the abyss

[untold stirrup]

ou

[green pilot]

I don't think there was even a "after the void" they never hatched before it so I guess it's a non broken vessel

[untold stirrup]

i mean before PK put the void in them

[green pilot]

Because it would have no memories of itself before the void injection stuff

[wraith trellis]

Technically they were eggs placed in the void? So I guess there's no "original child"

In the abyss I mean

They were born and immediately were subjected to void

[green pilot]

Now the only other question left to answer is if the void changes their appearance at all which I don't think is the case

[still gulch]

Or maybe PK ordered its construction because well he is a pale being and mate with another pale being both having infinite soul. So before the infection there was no reason to harvest bugs like ripe crops for soul and could do experiments less unethical than post infection.
PK does several feats with soul. The abyss lighthouse is an example.

[green pilot]

Like if a vessel hatched with no void it would probably look the same as it does with the void

[wraith trellis]

Most likely

[untold stirrup]

but what if they were hatched with the void ? bc the egg is black and connected to something

[wraith trellis]

There's no reason to think otherwise

[wraith trellis]

Wdym

[green pilot]

The void got injected into the egg before they got born

When an animal hatches from an egg that's when it gets born

[wraith trellis]

Really?

I thought the eggs were just placed in the abyss

And as they hatched the void came to them

[green pilot]

I mean as Nixulif said the egg is connected to void tendrils

[untold stirrup]

yes

the void tendrils were connected to the void lake ?

[green pilot]

Pretty sure it was also stated in the teachers archive lore tablet

[wraith trellis]

Ah so basically the void injected itself while they were still eggs?

[wraith trellis]

Really?

[green pilot]

Atleast

I some kind of way

[wraith trellis]

Uh

[green pilot]

"PLACE-IN VOID-LIQUID-SUBSTANCE"

[untold stirrup]

it looks like a tutorial or something like that

[green pilot]

It basically says to place the void liquid into something

[untold stirrup]

into the egg i think

[green pilot]

Yeah

There is another lore tablet with the word "yolk" in teachers archive

[wraith trellis]

So the void already injected itself into the eggs and the vessels hatched as vessels?

Not as bugs?

[untold stirrup]

i think yeah

[neat kite]

that seems to be case

[green pilot]

Yeah

[untold stirrup]

i gotta go so bye and have a nice day

[charred stirrup]

yes that's it, sorry for being unclear

[loud crater]

Is there anything to indicate Vessels would need to breathe?

[pure inlet]

They probably don’t

Cornifer suggests they don’t need to smell and they don’t eat

[loud crater]

Yeah I figured.

Corpses don’t tend to need air.

[split compass]

they probably don't need to
TK will seemingly pant when badly injured
but that could just be engrained behavior, and not a genuine physical need

[pure inlet]

Why did void imprint muscle fatigue? Is it stupid

[loud crater]

Yes.

It got bested by some fucking lumaflies.

[split compass]

yeah, I don't think it gets to choose what traits it mimics

got all the instincts and behaviors that came with the form

like an idiot!

[pseudo lance]

What are the titles of all the great knights?

[near sequoia]

Mighty Hegemol, fierce Dryya, kindly Isma, mysterious Ze'mer... erm, and the other one.

[pure inlet]

Ogrim was probably loyal or something

[sand stump]

You want any specific bits or just a general overview of important facts?

[pseudo lance]

Brave?

[pseudo lance]

Very minor Silksong spoilers ||with hornets tendency to give descriptive titles to characters do you think those titles could have come from her?||

[vast marten]

What exactly happens to the hollow knight after you beat the radiance(or just contain her)does he die or become normal again

[pseudo lance]

In dream no more the hollow knight and little ghost both seem to die and return to the void to rest.

[reef cloak]

To be fair they dont entirely die their shell just breaks and they become shades. I dont think they’re „dead” as their soul still exist just isnt contained

idk just my opinion

[vast marten]

"Rest" doesnt ghost become the shade lord or something

[pseudo lance]

In one ending yes but I was talking about dream no more

[pure inlet]

I see where you’re coming from but probably not

[pseudo lance]

In the pantheon endings the hollow knight survives and ghost becomes the lord of shades

[sand stump]

The Knight suffers the same faith as THK in sealed siblings And THK endings

In DNM and EtV they just return to the void

[vast marten]

Silksong stuff but || doesnt he command a bunch of shades when we see him||

[pure inlet]

Sheo is the one who mentions the titles and he was around in the prime Hornet wasn’t

[pseudo lance]

Yes but we ||don't know which ending is canon to silksong.||

[sand stump]

Yeah he becomes that after getting Void Heart

[vast marten]

Isn't it the delicate flower one(i never did the p5 but i heard in the normal p5 ending the void just kinda destroys everything

[pseudo lance]

||we don't know it could be dream no more, embrace the void, or delicate flower|| it's all very vague

||sotv uses imagery from each ending||

Making it intentionally ambiguous

[vast marten]

Dream no more wouldn't make sense as he doesn't become the shade lord there

[sand stump]

Could be either or
But for the second point the Void doesn't have any reason to destroy everything, we can see that it returns to the abyss after killing the radiance in DNM why wouldn't it do the same thing now?

[sand stump]

He becomes shade Lord as soon as he gets Void Heart

[rugged comet]

Dream Nail: The Abyss - Shade Beast - "...Lord of Shades..."

...Lord of Shades...

@grimpooper23 used /dream-nail area: The Abyss name: Shade Beast - "...Lord of Shades..."

[pseudo lance]

Well, technically ||the void statue calls you lord of shades after getting the void heart. Which can be done for dnm too. Pantheons seem to just accelerate their ascension.||

[sand stump]

This is after you get Void Heart

[vast marten]

No like i mean this one

I heard someone call it void given focus

[pseudo lance]

||theoretically they could have become that after dnm too, but I do lean on etv being canon||

[sand stump]

Yeah

[pseudo lance]

We know they unite the void either way

[vast marten]

Are you suggesting he got void given focus offscreen

How would p5 be cannon doesnt that take place in godseekers mind meaning it aint real

[pseudo lance]

I'm saying it's ambiguous as we mainly see ||the dnm version of ghosts shade with just flashes of the shade lord||

[vast marten]

Or does the radiance kinda become real as long as its a dream

[pseudo lance]

Anyway this is a topic for sk lore

[sand stump]

Dreams can be real
White Palace is an example

[vast marten]

So uh what happents to thk

[pseudo lance]

Radiance is the god of dreams it makes sense for her true body to be in there

[sand stump]

In DNM he gets blasted
But in EtV it's unknown

[vast marten]

I think he becomes a shade

[vast marten]

Wouldn't that mean if you dream of her she can just kill you

[pseudo lance]

I mean she kinda does that a lot

That's the infection

[vast marten]

Oh wait thats litterly how the infection spread

Mb

[pseudo lance]

She's just like Freddy Krueger frfr

[mighty dove]

TRUTH NUKE

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-truth-nuke-walter-white-true-breaking-bad-truth-nuke-breaking-bad-true-gif-2370094217877194192

[hazy escarp]

what di yall think of matpats theroy

[agile bough]

Nah

Pretty sure dreams in hollow knight aren't like dreams we have

At least not 100% the same

[agile bough]

The pain is very real

[hot lily]

it's garbage and incoherent

[hazy escarp]

I agreee

[hot lily]

dreams in hollow knight are just as real as their physical realm

[hazy escarp]

Oh wow

[whole arrow]

didn’t he play the game, how can he make a theory thats so wrong

the theory only made sense for people who didn’t even play it

[signal marlin]

the premise of his channel is generally to make outlandish theories and justify them however he can

he doesnt particularly care if theyre the most likely outcome or true

[hot lily]

i mean even then it's clearly made with almost no regard for that

[signal marlin]

hopefully he doesnt return for round 2 with silksong...

[wanton zephyr]

Chat im in an argument with someone
I need someone to elucidate me or I’m gonna go insane

Are Vessels higher beings?

Does being born of two higher beings make you a higher being?

[pure inlet]

No it don’t

Higher beings don’t have much criteria but they “exist above all others”

Being the kids of two doesn’t make you one

TK is a higher being once it gets void heart but before it isn’t despite its nature

Vessels are just naturally strong creatures

Pure Vessel might be one of the most powerful non higher beings but it still doesn’t have any sort of miraculous power

[wanton zephyr]

Ok so I’m not insane
What do I tell them when they tell me TK is a higher being because it can read king’s pass tablets…

[pure inlet]

Tell them that those were written by order of PK to butter up travelers and younger members of the kingdom

It’s like how we’d call LeBron James a god at basketball

They’re using higher beings (the equivalent of gods in universe) colloquially

The tablets were written for a far future where Hallownest was the only kingdom left, purporting PK’s propaganda that he was the creator of the world

That doesn’t really make sense if he’s talking to other HBs (who would know he didn’t create them)

[wanton zephyr]

Ok thanksss

[charred stirrup]

either will do

[soft linden]

How do we know Myla's name?

We must be the king reincarnated, and knew Myla when she was our most loyal subject

[hot lily]

can you not meme

[soft linden]

🥱

Very well

We must keep an air of utmost sincerity surrounding the story of this game with a character called Mister Mushroom

[split compass]

it's true
lore is not for funne

[pseudo lance]

This is a very serious game with very serious lore. Like dung defender.

[still gulch]

"So basically Herrah met this nice king who is already married with kids but it doesn't matter. And thats how hornet was born"

[still gulch]

Dreams can contain real constucts inside like White Palace*

palace? It's down below this city, in the bedrock of the kingdom. Must've been an impressive sight in its time. Now there's nothing left.
It's a strange thing though. There are no signs of conflict around the area. It's as though the whole place just vanished.

– Relic Seeker Lemm

Same goes to dreamers and the radiance hence the deaths are very real

[untold stirrup]

somethink new??

[frosty stag]

Can someone get me a yt video that explain the lore ?

[loud crater]

Mossbag has a video that’s fairly decent from what I’ve heard.

[hot lily]

<@&283547423706447872> memer

[loud crater]

Fucker got SWATed.

[wraith trellis]

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