hk-lore

[blissful crest]

Not that much armor

[naive pelican]

Sup guys

[signal iron]

Hallo.

Are you the result of peer reviewed research?

[naive pelican]

Perchance

[signal iron]

Are you aware that you are being intentionally mistreated by the Pale King?

[naive pelican]

Yes.

"No cost to great".

He says as he removes my will, mind, and voice.

[signal iron]

Are you aware that the White Palace contained several OSHA violations.

[naive pelican]

[signal iron]

Oh my god. You really don't have a mind to think.

[naive pelican]

[still gulch]

Question why does pure vessel break his armour?

We see thk's armour and it is completely indestructible

[split compass]

it's the same armor, and THK breaks out of it just the same as PV does once the magical bindings are undone
the armor's purpose isn't protection, it's to secure the vessel within the egg - you can see it has loops on it, where the chains attach
when it starts fighting, it has no need of it

[old sentinel]

Seeing the armour's bulk, it probably also restricts its mobility in combat too much, so it needs to take it off

[ashen shard]

100% didnt fight hornet

doubt hornet would leave a vessel there in a highly infectious area just to become a vessel of the infection

[neat kite]

why is Ancient Basin Infectious anyways? it makes sense for Crossroads but not basin

[reef vine]

It’s just getting in the way of his strength

[humble current]

Hype moments & aura

[jovial mason]

To kill the king maybe?

[glass token]

probably to make sure nothing escapes

[raw scarab]

hi guys im just sending messages in all channels so i can get in vc <3

[rich tusk]

Because it is made to suppress his power?
It’s his binding
And thk armour is not completely indestructible.

[hot lily]

no RPing

[onyx shadow]

are all 4 Soul Warriors in Hallownest the same warrior or different guys?

[rich tusk]

??

Blatantly false

Pure vessel has will and mind

[wanton zephyr]

They are different people

[onyx shadow]

mmm mm

[marble gorge]

hmm

guguguggggaaaaaa

[heady crescent]

Is there any lore on the fury of the fallen mask where you find the charm because it looks oddly out of place

[karmic crescent]

It probably formed from the dying wish/desire of the beast with the same face as the stone carving behind the chest

[vale oyster]

I wish we could dreamnail that creature

[karmic crescent]

Yea

Like leaving such an op charm behind

[neat kite]

me too

looks like some kind of spider

[onyx shadow]

WHAT

is there lore behind these 2 guys spawning

[neat kite]

i want more Lore of this, looks like Beast on Ancient Being of some sort

[neat kite]

do we have anything from Quirrel comic or elina's journal?

[vale oyster]

Tc made their top 5 coolest bug design so far and then they didn't give us any lore on it 💔

[neat kite]

is there anything in elina's journal about it?

[vale oyster]

I dont have that book

[tardy steppe]

is Zote a vessel?

[neat kite]

it's not in there

what other possible lore books exist about hallownest? is there a manual or something that might have lore of fury of the fallen?

i just realized Fury of the Fallen and Father of the Flame have same abbreviation

[placid quiver]

No he is actually radiance's child half pale and Hali radiance's child, that's why he is the almighty

[atomic egret]

Dayum

[rich tusk]

He is the black wyrm

[tardy steppe]

True?

[wanton zephyr]

These are all jokes

[rich tusk]

Yes

Yes

[wanton zephyr]

Zote is just a normal bug

[placid quiver]

No

[tardy steppe]

Oh so no vessel?

[wanton zephyr]

Not a vessel no

Just some guy

[tardy steppe]

Oh ok

[placid quiver]

Hes actually a skin walker

[tardy steppe]

Oh

[placid quiver]

You have to defeat him hell drop a charm name absolute zote , which will make you useless as we all are

[blissful crest]

yes

oro dressed a hopper as his brother mato

the two hoppers that drop down are its relatives

[charred gate]

This channel is really quiet right now. wow

[slender kite]

I mean, there doesn’t seem like there’s much to talk about in terms of Hollow Knight lore.

[charred gate]

Did Quirrel die or did he leave hallownest? He said he would leave (i think) but he left behind his nail.

[slender kite]

I don’t know if he left or what.

[sand stump]

He probably turned to dust

[charred gate]

didn't know thanos snap effected hallownest too

[storm oar]

i crave lore about the weaver at the weaver den i need to know

[vague arrow]

Hornet is void

[blissful crest]

Is she now

do you have anything else to say or just thjs

[vague arrow]

Yeah I just wanted to ragebait

Sorry

😔

[marsh finch]

the hollow knight is a lemon.

convince me wrong.

[vague arrow]

I would like to be taught in why Mr mushroom goes to hallownest

Because I’m curious

[indigo venture]

Because great change happen

and He the watcher

So he gotta signal a new era

[maiden solstice]

He goes to kingdoms when change is happening and a new age will begin

[indigo venture]

That

[vague arrow]

I thought he came to kingdoms to witness their end

[maiden solstice]

In this case it’s because of what the knight does and because the hollow knight is weakening

[indigo venture]

Most times

not necessaiy just "The end" though

just a great change

[vague arrow]

Oh

Thank u

[maiden solstice]

Not necessarily

Hallownest and pharloom had fallen far before, it’s possible he visited both multiple times

[hot lily]

Yes necessarily

[maiden solstice]

Why

He signals an ages end not a kingdoms end

[onyx shadow]

Is this for real, on god

[pure inlet]

“Stronger…Brothers” is its dnd

[sand stump]

I think it is

Also whats good my man?
Haven't seen ya in a bit

[onyx shadow]

I can tell you that I finally beat P4ab 🥹

Gim troupe!!

[sand stump]

Thats fuckin awesome

Very cool

[grave eagle]

So I just saw a vid who talked about this, and hear me out what if the reason hornet and knight can respawn isnt because they just got the power to do so but instead the pale kings ability, foresight. Every time they wake up on a bench their slightly startled as if it was a nightmare, also both of their heads are slightly tilted to the right before being started, yk who also is in that exact same position, pale king in white palace, what if he just saw no future where he survived and just accepted it

[onyx shadow]

https://tenor.com/view/grimm-hollow-knight-hollow-knight-grimm-troupe-troupe-master-gif-23185336

[sand stump]

Nah respawn isn't canon

[onyx shadow]

It's more like Steel Soul is canon?

[sand stump]

Yeah

[grave eagle]

Yh but that's because they can't respawn

It also makes sense that pales king ability to see the future gets inherited

[sand stump]

We can tell from the Stags,
You take stag, You die, you wake up at bench, The stag is not there

[sand stump]

Why does that make sense?

[grave eagle]

Well shi

[sand stump]

yeahh, we've all been there

[grave eagle]

Ngl if it wasn't for that it would've been a pretty good theorie

Specially the pale king part

[indigo venture]

How did the original children of PK actually die

In which way did Void kill them

Did it just overrun their bodies?

[slender kite]

They died on impact with the ground.

If they didn’t then they weren’t able to get out as they didn’t have the athletic skills to do so. (There’s only a few of em that got out, most ended up dead to Nosk)

[marble birch]

Honestly the entire prospect of Nosk is still unsettling to think about.

It was, in every possible sense, the undisputed top of the food chain in Hallownest, bar absolutely nothing except maaaaaybe the Hunter himself.

[slender kite]

Nobody even knows what Nosk is.

[marble birch]

Exactly. Like all we know is it has a big, spiky body and a ‘head’ it conceals under a puppet guise it uses to lure victims to its lair.

[slender kite]

Best mimic in gaming: Nosk.

[marble birch]

It was the top of the food chain because it has, built-in, a weapon with no counter, no peer, and no equal: Emotional manipulation. You can’t fight something wearing a loved one’s face.

[slender kite]

That’s true.

The Hunter vs Nosk?

[marble birch]

Hell there’s even a Stalking Devout strung up amid its trophy collection, which is many magnitudes stronger than Nosk physically.

But it still lost and died because Nosk has a trick no one could beat.

[slender kite]

I was honestly impressed by Nosk with that kill.

[marble birch]

I feel like Nosk is almost a unique parallel to the Radiance and the issue of trying to contain her.

Radiance must be contained by something truly ‘empty’ and lacking a mind, since anything that can think or feel would inevitably be contaminated.

Nosk is similar: The only way to survive a fight against it would, in theory, to be completely without a heart. To be truly ‘empty’ and have no heartstrings to be pulled.

[indigo venture]

I said original children

not The Vessels

Like the spawns that got spawncamed inside of their eg

If they died from being thrown into the abyss I'd figure their eggs would be broken no?

[marble birch]

But Nosk won every single bout it entered because no matter what, everyone who stumbled upon it had some ability to think and feel, so they were doomed from the start.

[indigo venture]

But The Vessel are stated to have punched their way out of the egg

[indigo venture]

Tk just killed it really hard

A way to avoid them would be to be truly empty I suppose, though

[marble birch]

The original children essentially had their life drained out of them by exposure to Void. The empty husks that reanimated afterwards and emerged from their egg are what we now know as the Vessels.

[indigo venture]

Yeah what I think too

[marble birch]

The Pale King’s idea was, simply, to have his Lady wife bear a bunch of eggs, and then he’d infuse them with Void and leave them in the Abyss. Once they hatched, his light would call the presumably mindless Vessels that emerged. The one that survived and proved without mind or heart would be deemed the Pure Vessel, the Hollow Knight, and be used to contain the Radiance. The rest were discarded.

[indigo venture]

The one that did the parkour the fastest won yeah

[marble birch]

Well not only that, they had to outwardly display being empty.

[indigo venture]

Perchance

[marble birch]

If one made it to the King but displayed some semblance of a mind, then he chucked them off the platform himself.

[indigo venture]

?

[marble birch]

Hence where likely a lot of the ones that fell during the Birthplace cutscene came from. Those who prevailed in the climb but did not pass the King’s judgment.

[indigo venture]

Care to elaborate on that?

Where you get that from?

[marble birch]

Judging by The Knight’s abilities and those of Vessels in general, quite a lot of them were of dexterity and skill enough to survive the climb out of the Abyss and made it to the top platform, where the King waited.

[indigo venture]

I mean yeah

[marble birch]

But he only needs one Vessel that he deems ‘completely hollow’. He only needs one Hollow Knight.

[indigo venture]

but from what we see in-game THK was the only one to be able to reach the top

followed by TK

I honestly don't see where it could be assumed PK at somepoint chucked vessels back into the Abyss

[marble birch]

But we see countless others fall from above.

[indigo venture]

Yeah

[marble birch]

Some while we’re close to the end of our climb, even.

[indigo venture]

And maybe they just slipped in the last few blocks

[wanton zephyr]

There’s really nothing in the game that indicates he chucks anything back if he thinks they aren’t pure

[indigo venture]

Who knows

[indigo venture]

My train of thought yeah

[wanton zephyr]

Or that he check for purity in the first place

[indigo venture]

There's ample room for interpretation, don't get me wrong

[wanton zephyr]

He just take the very first one that climbed out and went with it

[indigo venture]

but I personally do not believe on that idea

[marble birch]

My point is there were hundreds of thousands of these things emerging from their egg, quite a few must have used their dexterity and survived the climb and made it to the King.

[indigo venture]

Not that we see one actually do so besides THK

And TK I guess

[marble birch]

He likely then studied it, but if it showed anything he deemed a trace of mind or will, back to the darkness it went.

[indigo venture]

That's mostly my point, it's plausible, as much as it's possible that no other vessel besides TK and THK succedeed the climb

No real "Concrete" answer is there? I suppose we're just going around in circles

[wanton zephyr]

Cuz the entirety of his plan banks on the assumption that the void is 100% pure
There is zero chance of them being anything but pure so any of them would do, he just need one to make it up

[marble birch]

So he repeated this process until a Vessel passed both parts of the test. A: Physical capacity enough to survive the climb out of the Abyss, and B: Appearing, by the King’s judgment, to be without mind or heart. To think nothing and feel nothing.

[indigo venture]

I mean if One Vessel was not pure, wouldn't that mean none was?

As Milwkwy pointed out, PK didn't know void couldn't be pure

And all vessels were made the same

so if PK knew that a few weren't, I'd assume He'd assume none was, no?

[marble birch]

But if he thought the Void’s cleansing of the children infallible, he would have only had the Lady sire the one child and been done with it.

[indigo venture]

PK likely didn't even know Vessels could have wills and feelings and such

[indigo venture]

Exactly, he didn't but was banking on it

Fair point though

Give me a second to think of a reason

[wanton zephyr]

If he sees an impure vessel he would have totally considered the possibility of his own pure vessel capable of being tarnished

But he never did as he was endlessly careless that somehow made it capable of being manipulated by the radiance

[marble birch]

He needed all those hundreds of thousands of trial runs because he anticipated, or rather, foresaw that the process wasn’t a 100% guarantee to work.

[wanton zephyr]

He needed them cuz he wasn’t sure if any of them would survive being voided

[indigo venture]

Because also saying "PK was just hoping that if one failed, the one that was made the exact same way wouldn't" isn't really agreeable, I'd say

[marble birch]

So he had his Lady sire so many children to ensure he’d keep going through imperfect Vessels until he got one that was ‘just right’.

[indigo venture]

He needed them cuz he wasn’t sure if any of them would survive being voided

[wanton zephyr]

Bro just copied my reply

Be more original

[indigo venture]

Uh

Credits to Milwkwy

[marble birch]

Well that but, again, he likely also knew or foresaw the process wasn’t guaranteed to make an entirely pure Vessel 100% without margin for error. But his kingdom is dying, so he needed enough Vessels to basically ensure, by trial and error, that one that was ‘Pure’ would make it to him eventually and pass both parts of the test.

[indigo venture]

Maybe

Maybe not

[wanton zephyr]

Again
His plan depends on his assumption that the void is pure to work

If he even consider that a vessel can be impure the entire plan falls apart

[marble birch]

I mean it’s the most probable outcome. Void is a substance Bugs know precious little about. The King knew he was going off the maps on this one.

Especially since what little info left on the Void only exists in the form of those Void Monoliths/Soul Containers scattered about, and the occasional Arcane Egg found near the very very very very very bottom of the world.

[marble birch]

He knew the Void was an emptiness, but he couldn’t guarantee that it would empty the sired children in their whole entirety. So he made enough children to guarantee that a Vessel that was fully, successfully emptied made it to him eventually, and was deemed the Pure Vessel.

Only problem is he missed a spot check, since the Pure Vessel looked back and saw Ghost clinging to the final platform, an action that would have outed it as flawed and possessing a mind. But he’d already turned his back and thought it to be the right one, so that one detail escaped him.

[slender kite]

I seriously enjoy reading this.

[red glen]

I think Void gets will by absorbing Soul. the plan might be flawed from the start if the Void sucked the Soul of the kids before their birth

getting their uh will or smth

[marble birch]

Not entirely sure. The Void clearly has some manner of will even before it was introduced to anything else. My guess is the Void evolved into proper sentience after it received the power of belief, when the old Bugs began worshipping it, back in its prime when it was the supreme, dominant power in the world.

[wanton zephyr]

Aside from the headcanon that PK performs quality checks on those vessels because he had doubts that his plan is not 100% foolproof and chucks the “impure” ones back into the abyss

PV looking back at movements on the platform wouldn’t have ousted it as impure. Vessels are allowed to react to things. How is it to follow PK’s directions, or trained, or do anything if it wasn’t allowed to do that?
If it were to help TK up, now that would imply that it’s impure, which is why it turned away

[slender kite]

I love the thought of the Pale King just examining each and every vessel physically and mentally.

[wanton zephyr]

And how exactly is he to do that

[slender kite]

No clue.

[marble birch]

Well he had to, yes. He has to check and ensure the empty thing that approaches him was fully cleaned out by the Void. If it wasn’t, he’d chuck it back down to the darkness whence it came, and wait for the next one to survive the climb and make it to him.

[wanton zephyr]

Again, a headcanon

[marble birch]

But one with a high likelihood of being the proper course of events, given context and lore.

[red glen]

from what Hornet said in SS my interpretation is that Void's only natural instinct is consuming Soul. the reason I say it consumes that Soul's will after that is bc of some things that appear in both games. I haven't been in a lore discussion in years so I can't say much off the top of my head. but for example Elderbug says that the structures in Ancient Basin seem to have made themselves as if they had a will. the mould for the Collector seems to use Soul to imbue the will of SERVE into the Void within. and Kingsoul, a thing that seems to use the PK's connection with Soul is able to unify the Void under the bearer's will under certain conditions (by becoming the void heart)

also the Collector got affected by its lovers' obsession for grubs. and we knows it consumed it bc of their dead body

[marble birch]

Possibly. Again my guess is at some point after being worshipped, the Void must have evolved from that base instinct and eventually became sentient after the old Bugs formed a religion around it and offered it prayer and even themselves to be cleansed by it.

[red glen]

could be. it seems you can mould Void into many things after all

[marble birch]

Ye. Void likely gained some manner of will, and this is possibly what created the original Void Given Focus, which many of the Void Monoliths/Soul Totems are styled in the image of.

[red glen]

it's possible PK wasn't trying to make a being that literally didn't have a will. I mean he lived with the Hollow Knight he's not (hopefully) that stupid to realize HK could like. do things. it's more like "make a being that doesn't have a will of its own. one that doesn't desire anything for themselves". we see that the mantises can ward off the infection by being mentally strong. PK maybe wanted a being who did smth similar. just in this case had no desires. because remember that Radiance latches onto the things you want

[marble birch]

Well he needed something that was 100% without thought or will. Something truly lacking a mind, so as the Radiance had no chance of corrupting it or wearing it down even spending contained in it for eternity.

He had to make a container that would last forever.

[slender kite]

Ahem, just use nosk.

No emotions, no nothing.

[signal marlin]

there is no "original void given focus"

[signal marlin]

no he didnt

[red glen]

I used to say just throw HK with Radiance inside into the sea of void but SS taught us why you don't do that to a god^^;)
kinda catastrophic

[slender kite]

Ladies and Gents, I have a solution to your radiance problem: Nosk.

[signal marlin]

that isnt a solution

[slender kite]

I mean… Nosk doesn’t really have emotions…

[signal marlin]

which doesnt matter

[slender kite]

How? How can it not?

[red glen]

he wanted something impossible really. but we know that much at this point

[signal marlin]

given the fact that nosk is infected, its obviously not what PK would have wanted

[slender kite]

Was Nosk something before the infection made it stronger or was he just always like that?

[signal marlin]

the infection based attacks wouldnt exist how they currently do, however the nature of what nosk does would still exist as thats independent of being infected

yak

[split compass]

spin those lores nadia

you glow

[split compass]

I'm don't know whether or not Void was always the way it is but
I have been wondering if the Void Tendrils might be some remnant of the ancients

Siblings have white glowing eyes, but they are fainter than Void beings like the Collector or the Shade - and their physical form is fainter too
they're fading away, bleeding back into the Void

maybe the Void Tendrils having grey, almost completely black eyes is an indication that they're leftover from some much older imprint

all that's left is vicious hostility

[remote bramble]

Well void chooses to be in its barbed form

[surreal zodiac]

can it really “choose” anything? it isn’t sentient, is it?

[indigo venture]

Half

[surreal zodiac]

wdym half?

[marble birch]

It became Sentient at some distant point in the past. It had a singular, united will, a consciousness, but likely fragmented and slowly dissolved after it stopped being actively worshipped. The Void Tendrils are likely animated by slivers and fragments of that original consciousness.

[remote bramble]

It was never unified until TK

[surreal zodiac]

how do you know?

it became unified under TK, and wasn’t unified when they got there, but that doesnt mean they were never unified

[remote bramble]

"Such union in a single being. A strength before unseen."

[marble birch]

There’s a statue down in the abyss that hints at Void being ‘without unity’, implying it once had unity at some previous point, though you need Awakened Dream Nail to view this.

So my guess is Void had a more cohesive, unified consciousness back in its prime when it had active worshippers and was the dominant power in the world, but after that worship stopped and Radiance took over, it slowly dissoluted and became muddled within its vastness.

[surreal zodiac]

“in a single being” means the knight. it couldve been more of a hivemind, which wouldnt be a ”single being” and instead would be multiple united

[surreal zodiac]

i worded this poorly sorry

[marble birch]

Radiance even glimpses that piece of Void’s original self in the Knight, calling it her ‘ANCIENT ENEMY’.

[surreal zodiac]

good point

[marble birch]

So Void did at some point come into hostile contact with Radiance in the past.

[signal marlin]

that isnt implied

[surreal zodiac]

how is it not?

[marble birch]

Though this was likely after Void’s decline from power, since as we see, Void Given Focus hands Radiance her ass with 0 effort.

[remote bramble]

"Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself." this implies void wasnt unified

[surreal zodiac]

this is from the perspective of a subject of the pale king

that means its most likely very biased

[marble birch]

A lot of evidence dictates otherwise. Void Monoliths, the Abyss Statue Dialogue.

[hazy temple]

Is the ghost also not entirely "hollow"?

Does he still have emotions?

[surreal zodiac]

“hollow” is a flawed term

what the pale king thought was pure is not true

[hazy temple]

What do you mean?

[surreal zodiac]

they*

[marble birch]

Yes. It has a will and can decide for itself. The fact Nosk is able to craft a disguise to fool it also gives this away.

[surreal zodiac]

it has a will and can decide stuff, so it isnt “hollow”. that doesnt mean they cant contain the radiance, though

[marble birch]

If you play Steel Soul Mode, Jinn outright states that Ghost ‘has a will all its own’ because you can choose not to give it a Rancid Egg when prompted.

[hazy temple]

So he's also a considered "failed" vessel, right?

[surreal zodiac]

also, the hunter’s journal calls a sibling a “Fragment of a broken will.” implying that vessels have wills

[surreal zodiac]

they are, in the pale king’s eyes, but that doesnt mean they cant contain the radiance, because they certainly can

they have a will, but cannot dream

[signal marlin]

it only describes a current state. moreover “without unity” is compatible with multiple possibilities, one being that void never had unity. even if you want to interpret that it could be commenting on a past change (which is not correct), that interpretation requires introducing an additional assumption about a prior unified state that is also not stated or implied

[marble birch]

Ye. The Void ultimately either: Failed to fully drain the minds of the Pale King’s children, or: Possibly animated them using slivers and pieces of the Void’s original will, the primal consciousness.

[indigo venture]

You really need to understand this is a theory as everything else is

[surreal zodiac]

the void nonetheless has fragments of conciousness

[indigo venture]

Just replying to something using this as a fact is incorrect

[marble birch]

But there’s a lot of irrefutable solid evidence proving Void had achieved some manner of unity and higher state in the past.

[indigo venture]

Is it the monoliths that resemble VGFocus in "Holy places"

[signal marlin]

there isnt and even if thats the case it isnt relevant to what was being said

[hazy temple]

It's honestly really scary how many children or "vessels" were thrown away into the abyss like "useless" toys by the king

[marble birch]

Well that and the Dream Nail Dialogue offered by the Abyss Statue hints that Void held some degree of unification.

[indigo venture]

The "Lord of shades" being 'thought' of by the statue can have many explanations

[surreal zodiac]

even IF the void was never unified, you can’t deny it still has fragments of will and conciense

[indigo venture]

none are "irrefutable proof"

It's all a mater of you interpret it

[signal marlin]

not really

[surreal zodiac]

yes really, it’s practically a genocide

[indigo venture]

All of the Original Children of Pk were thrown into the abyss with great shame

Not as "Useless Toys"

It was great sacrifice after great sacrifice for the sake of the Kingdom

Slandering PK as a heartless monster

[hazy temple]

Do you have any idea how many dead bodies are in the abyss?

[indigo venture]

A lot

There's no exact number

[marble birch]

Lord of Shades is referring to Ghost itself actually. I recently learned that there’s a distinction between it and the Void Given Focus, which i’m guessing was Void’s original, completed consciousness.

[signal marlin]

if you ignore all of what classifies a genocide yes and all of the issues the game presents

[signal marlin]

it doesnt matter, as its < infinite

[indigo venture]

Yeah, Lord of shades applies to both VGform and Vgfocus

because both are TK, who the title belongs to

[marble birch]

Not exactly. Void Given Focus is something bigger than just Ghost. This is the ‘ANCIENT ENEMY’ Radiance sensed in it, most likely.

[indigo venture]

Ancient enemy could be referring to Vessels In general

Again there are ways to interpret this

The feud within PK/Hallownest and Radiance could very well be considered ancient at this point

[marble birch]

She says ‘Ancient’, meaning referring to something terribly, immensely old, predating to her own era most likely. Radiance likely encountered Void back in her prime, when she first discovered the land that would one day become Hallownest and the Moths moved in.

[indigo venture]

So many Likely's

[surreal zodiac]

i agree VGFocus is bigger than TK, but the “ANCIENT ENEMY” is possibly just other higher beings in general, not necissarily the void

[indigo venture]

This whole assumption is based on so many "It's possible though"

[surreal zodiac]

so is yours..?

[marble birch]

Like the Vessels are mostly all still only children, they are, to a God’s standards, relatively new creations.

[indigo venture]

I simply can not agree with any of it

[indigo venture]

Correct

I was referring to both of our assumptions

because that's what theories are

[indigo venture]

I mean Vessels are just Stillborn fetuses in general

[surreal zodiac]

well, given that tc is likely not going to confirm much more abt void until pantheon of pharloom, this is the best we can do

[indigo venture]

We don't have exact timeframes to define what can be called "Ancient"

[indigo venture]

Correct

[marble birch]

More like reanimated shells, but yes.

[indigo venture]

Yeah

[signal marlin]

or are they

[indigo venture]

Nadia

what is your take on this

[signal marlin]

i read 0 of it 🗣️

[indigo venture]

fuck

Oh well

[surreal zodiac]

idk if this should go into the sk lore or hk lore, but what is the distinction between silk and soul?

[indigo venture]

Nadia hasn't given an opinion about it so I don't have an opinion either

That's my take

[marble birch]

Silk is Soul in a more refined state.

[marble birch]

Weak. Form your own opinions.

[indigo venture]

Too hard

[signal marlin]

or do we

[surreal zodiac]

we dont…

[indigo venture]

Nadia do you find replying to stuff with vague stuff that amusing

[signal marlin]

there is

[marble birch]

Well Radiance is. Old. Crazy stupid old, on account of being a Goddess. She predates all of Hallownest and what is considered civilization as a whole.

[signal marlin]

sometimes but it is not really correct to say there is no reference for ancient

[surreal zodiac]

possibly, but we dont exactly know when the higher beings came to be

[marble birch]

We know that Void predates back before even this, as Void predates everything else, so it’s feasible Radiance, being the light, came into conflict with Void, being the primal darkness, at some point back in the height of Radiance’s power.

[surreal zodiac]

given the radiance only exists as a dream, its entirely possible she was born simply from thought

[marble birch]

It is possible she was birthed from the Moth’s worship of her in their dreams, considering she resembles them loosely.

[surreal zodiac]

we do know the void was always there, however none of the other higher beings have very easy to find birthdays

[indigo venture]

We dunno' if Radiance was even born

Maybe they just existed this whole time

[surreal zodiac]

i think that’s the most likely

[indigo venture]

alongside The Dream Realm

[surreal zodiac]

the dream kinda doesnt exist, it’s just the minds of bugs

[marble birch]

Radiance needed memory to exist. She can’t have existed without living Bugs who remember her.

[indigo venture]

I mean kind of

[surreal zodiac]

it was created at the same time as conciense

[indigo venture]

They need to be remembered to not be locked away forever

[signal marlin]

its explictly the opposite

[surreal zodiac]

where?

[indigo venture]

They were born from the light yeah

[surreal zodiac]

?? where does it say that

[rugged comet]

Seer - Bringing Essence - Returning with 2400 Essence

So much Essence... So bright.... You truly are the Wielder my tribe so long has dreamed of.
The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.
They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
But another light appeared in our world... A wyrm that took the form of a king.
How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.
Ah, but what's done is done. And so am I. The Wielder has at last appeared and I've held the memories of my tribe for long enough. It is time for us to be forgotten too.
Don't remember us, Wielder. Don't honour us. We do not deserve it...
Aahh... I'm sorry...
Light... Radiance...
I... remember you.

@megathekindly used /npcs quest name: Seer category: Bringing Essence dialogue: Returning with 2400 Essence

[indigo venture]

Did yall ever ascend seer

[marble birch]

Oh right yeah Seer dialogue confirms this. Radiance made the Moths in her own image.

[surreal zodiac]

ah okie

[indigo venture]

Possibly on the latter part, but yeah

[signal marlin]

[surreal zodiac]

the radiance was still likely concieved from bugs

[indigo venture]

Maybe not

Possibly not

[marble birch]

Most likely. Being abstract as she is, she can’t exist without memory.

[surreal zodiac]

i never said is, i said likely

[indigo venture]

Yeah

I know

[marble birch]

She was dying since everyone forgot about her, which is why she lashed out and became desperate.

[indigo venture]

"Dying"

No?

I mean they were locked away

it is never said they were dying

"Forgetting something is locking it away forever" and allat

[surreal zodiac]

why would she become so desperate?

[indigo venture]

I'd figure the same applies to The Radiance

[ebon patio]

she isnt despserate she is enraged

[indigo venture]

because They would be locked away forever

Also yeah what Steady said

It's half and half I'd say

"I WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN"

[surreal zodiac]

which is kinda on par with death

[indigo venture]

But it isn't

That's the key distinction

Radiance does not rely on Worship for getting stronger/weaker, or for living/dying

[surreal zodiac]

it isn’t death, but it is a similar fate: gone from the world forever

[indigo venture]

No Higher Being that we know of does

[indigo venture]

But it isn't death

[marble birch]

Well she lost a lot of her foothold on the physical world, and her power waned drastically. It’s possible she would have faded out into abstraction entirely had the Bugs not found that statue of her in the Peaks.

[signal marlin]

might be thinking of UNN

[marble birch]

The Infection, thus, is the result of Radiance using what little foothold she has left to cling to Bugs and force them to remember, reanimating their corpses and making them feel her rage for themselves.

[marble birch]

Unn is moreso just dormant, given everything’s gone to hell. She simply checked out and is waiting for the storm above to pass since Radiance hijacked her plant-spawn worshippers.

[surreal zodiac]

they arent completely blinded by rage though

[signal marlin]

unn was weakened - not radiance

[indigo venture]

Radiance is the honored one

[surreal zodiac]

unn doesnt gaf about what’s going ontho

[indigo venture]

They are nothing like Unn

[indigo venture]

s

She does

wut

She is desperately crying for her children to come to her and is unheed

Because the Infection lured her children away

[surreal zodiac]

wait what- where

[indigo venture]

"She is calling"

[marble birch]

Radiance was very much in a waning state after she suffered being nearly forgotten. The Infection is essentially her last-ditch effort to claw her way back into power even though she’s essentially running on divine fumes.

[signal marlin]

nothing suggests that

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Volatile Mosskin

Description:
Plant-like bug swollen with infection. Releases deadly gas when threatened.

Hunter's notes:
The gas that seeps from their growths smells invitingly sweet, but it will burn through shell and flesh if you get too close!

Dream Nail:
...Unn calls...
Our leaves wilt...
Protect the road of Unn...

@megathekindly used /journal name: Volatile Mosskin

[surreal zodiac]

both were weakened

[indigo venture]

"Unn calls"

[signal marlin]

radiance wasnt no

[hazy temple]

So what's the most "fitting" ending for Hollow Knight to link with silksong?

[indigo venture]

Unn is always calling out for the mosskin, who are unable to heed her

[surreal zodiac]

ah

[indigo venture]

Embrace The Void

[ebon patio]

dream no more or embrace the void

[hazy temple]

The one with godseeker?

[marble birch]

Pretty sure she’s in a heavily depleted state. The game draws a lot of distinction that she held a lot of sway over the world before the Pale King came along and everyone began disregarding her.

[surreal zodiac]

either of the godhome endings

[indigo venture]

[indigo venture]

Really?

[ebon patio]

delicate flower is a little tough because it appears like the knight is absorbed by the flower

[indigo venture]

Or whatever the fuck happens

[hazy temple]

Or the flower killed the void

[indigo venture]

It can't do that

[ebon patio]

well.. only the knight

[surreal zodiac]

yes? she is clearly much more powerful in her prime shown in godhome

[indigo venture]

That isn't her prime though

[hazy temple]

The white lady said the flower had some sort of power

[indigo venture]

Astrid how far are you into the game

If you don't midn me asking

[ebon patio]

this is not her prime, this is her being strengthened by the godseeker's focus

[indigo venture]

Absolute Radiance is the same as Void Given Focus, a higher being powered up by the Godseeker's focus

[surreal zodiac]

finished

ohhh

[indigo venture]

It isn't Radiance's "Prime"

[surreal zodiac]

im stupid lmao

sorry

[signal marlin]

influence isnt the same as power and the latter isnt really true or suggested either

[indigo venture]

It's good

[surreal zodiac]

uh, influence is kinda exactly the same as power? both ingame and irl, if you have more influence over more people, you control more and thus have more power

[marble birch]

Her power was intricately tied to how many remembered she existed. As memory of Radiance waned, so too did her strength. The moment the Bugs found that statue of her in the Peaks, it gave her some power back. Not enough to return to prime form, but enough that she lashed out with one, final trick: The Infection.

[signal marlin]

this just equivocates on what power means

[signal marlin]

her power isnt related to that

and that just restates what was said earlier

[surreal zodiac]

magical power or not, having less control is going to harm her

[marble birch]

It is. Much of her lore highlights the importance of her might came from being remembered, from Bugs being made aware she existed.

[indigo venture]

I think a deeper explanation would make it easier to understand your point

[ebon patio]

power could mean either influence or pure strength here, only her influence was harmed

[hazy temple]

If the the embrace the void ending is correct (flower version), then the void couldn't manifest through hallownest

[ebon patio]

dont know about her strength

[hazy temple]

Since the flower absorbed or something..

[ebon patio]

did u mean pharlom

[signal marlin]

again this is asserting a connection without illustrating it

[hazy temple]

But most probably "dream no more" is canon one

[marble birch]

My guy the illustration’s all over her lore. For Radiance, memory=power, this isn’t that hard to grasp.

[signal marlin]

her ability/power is never described as being related to rememberance

[surreal zodiac]

even without diving very deep, whats the point in her infecting the lands without her getting power?

[signal marlin]

this does the very thing what ur responding to is critiquing

[marble birch]

Exactly. She needs to be remembered to regain her strength, hence the whole point of the Infection: To force her memory into as many Bugs as she could reach via Dream.

[surreal zodiac]

uh, it’s kind athe entire point of the conflict between the pale king & the radiance???? both want to be worshipped

[signal marlin]

youre not really saying anything here

[signal marlin]

a desire to be worshipped isnt whats being discussed

[marble birch]

I am? I’m just calmly pointing out the very real facts as stayed in game’s lore.

You really need to go play Hollow Knight again if you’re not remembering this important of a lore segment.

[surreal zodiac]

a desire to be worshipped, a desire to be remembered, a desire for a form of immortality

[signal marlin]

no, youre just saying "the game says its true", thats meaningless especially when restated

[surreal zodiac]

this is what they fight for

[signal marlin]

yeah that isnt whats being discussed

i know what you said, however

[surreal zodiac]

i think it is but then again i suck at talking so

[marble birch]

Well yes the game states that Radiance’s power came from memory. She was outraged once her worshippers abandoned her, and she began to fade out once she was nearly fully forgotten. She would have ceased being had the Bugs in the Crystal Peak not found that statue of her and gave her a foothold.

[signal marlin]

no the discussion is about intrinsic power and the idea that radiances was weakened at some point

[signal marlin]

proof?

[surreal zodiac]

imortality is a form of power, is it not?

[surreal zodiac]

literally all of the game’s lore 😭

[marble birch]

Through that foothold, Radiance began dream-hopping and contaminating as many Bugs as she could reach to force remembrance. This cataclysm is what we call the Infection.

So she’s regained a slab of her power and a physical foothold on the world, but she’s still more or less just a shadow of her former glory.

[signal marlin]

that isnt proof and i already responded to this exact reasoning: #hk-lore message

[signal marlin]

you can classify it as such, however again, thats not relevant to whats being discussed. its specifically if radiances power is related to being worshipped

starpengu returns

[indigo venture]

FNAC?

[signal marlin]

fnaf

[indigo venture]

[near sequoia]

Radiance needs to be remembered to exist, although saying she draws power from it is maybe a bit misleading since its not like the more she's remembered the stronger she is or wtv (there's no evidence for that)

Hold something in your mind and it lives on with you, but forget it and you seal it away forever. That is the only death that matters.

and there isn't really evidence that the statue in Crystal Peak is what "gave her a foothold", Seer attributes her survival to "hush whispers of faith"

How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.

[indigo venture]

How do you do that

[near sequoia]

Do what

[indigo venture]

The grey text

[near sequoia]

just put > and then a space at the start

[indigo venture]

GORB!

[near sequoia]

> Like this

[indigo venture]

How do you do that

[near sequoia]

Two `s

[indigo venture]

Huh

[indigo venture]

Well ty

Now I need to figure out how to use that symbol

[faint tundra]

Who was the strongest knight allied with pale king?

Canonically

[lusty plinth]

Zemer if she stopped fucking around with those flowers

[hot lily]

depends on what you mean by "strongest"

[lusty rose]

From what we learn in the lore of silksong, ||ze'mer's delicate flowers are like really important||

[pure inlet]

Ze’mer was mysterious we don’t know if this mostly refers to the flowers and her being from another land but she had a giant nail so shrug

It’s important to note that Ogrim can swim through hyper compacted dung effortlessly and mold one ton balls of it that he tosses at you like nothing

And he’s not even the one with the epithet “The Mighty”

Hegemol was probably absolutely insane

[lusty rose]

Zote the mighty, a knight of great renown?

[pure inlet]

Not that one

[lusty rose]

Idk that dude does seem pretty strong

[pure inlet]

Real answer is probably Pure Vessel

[forest hearth]

pv was probably the strongest yeah

[still gulch]

He can also slam the ground into waves in his prime

[unreal tiger]

I see people mentioning the pale king was a better leader than GMS. what proof is there of this?

[raw snow]

1. Silksong spoiler

2. Paleking bothered to create a functionable kingdom and actually attracted a lot of bugs to his leader ship, even the moths

[still pelican]

[red glen]

||we literally know nothing about GMS's Kingdom. she killed a bunch of ppl but the resulting society could've been functional. we only see what her daughters built later. which does suck||
Silksong

[raw snow]

Idt theres much kingdom

[still gulch]

Theory: All crawlers of Deepnest do not deserve any basic rights

[karmic crescent]

That's an opinion not a theory-

[red glen]

I imagine her kingdom being more like a tribe tbh. I just don't want to accept that's something a pale higher being would do

-# I should stop discussing ss here sorry

[worthy hornet]

ok uhhh er correct me if im wrong but is xero a moth im confused ? i couldve sworn he was but i mightve been thinking of markoth

[remote bramble]

Markoth is, xero isn't

[obsidian cradle]

i need some help

what is quirrel?

as in species

[floral mist]

Bug

[obsidian cradle]

but what bug

like a cricket is a bug

a spider can be considered a bug

[floral mist]

Beetle I think, I have no clue tbh

Maybe not beetle actually

[spark cedar]

Everything in the games a bug

[floral mist]

That's the point

[spark cedar]

[obsidian cradle]

snail shaman?

what bout the white lady?

pale king?

hes a fork

forks are not bugs

[spark cedar]

some void being

[spark cedar]

tree

[spark cedar]

wyrm

so I make adjustments

[obsidian cradle]

those are not bugs

[spark cedar]

nearly everything in the game is bugs

and the ones who are not bugs are usually higher beings

[neat kite]

how is bardoon old and still in caterpillar stage?

[frozen marten]

Guys

The colosseum of fools is actually inside the pale king's cast-off shell's ass

It's the other end

[tacit timber]

neoteny happens in nature sometimes

or his species is just really really long lived

hes just a round boy

[neat kite]

i like that explanation

[ebon patio]

well considering that the entrance looks like a face with eyes and a mouth and not an ass, most people accept that its just a big dead bug

[pure inlet]

He could just be a caterpillar for life

We have moths and maggots

[bitter pasture]

I have a question, why does the ||Radiance|| want's to kill us??

[keen topaz]

Bc ur trying to kill her??????

[bitter pasture]

I mean, before we have born, the lore of her

[near sequoia]

Radiance was betrayed by her creations, the moth tribe, who tried forgetting about her (which would result in her death) so she's lashing out at everyone

Vessels were created in an attempt to seal her and yeah The Knight tries sealing/killing her so you're pretty high up on the list of people to kill

[vale oyster]

I genuinely thought this was the case when I first played the game

[half coyote]

Is there any pictures of Soul Master Pre soul Bloatation??

[split compass]

not really
but it may look a little something like this

[pure inlet]

Was probably something like that

[pure inlet]

What was the secret of Tiso’s shield

He’s interesting because the game wants to tell you he was an arrogant loser

But if the trials are structured the same for other bugs then he actually was a really good fighter

Beat Oblobbles two Soul Twisters etc

[late yoke]

hi

i like lore

[wide lark]

this will be kinda off topic but i think that the ||lost kin|| is ||the one who we play in birthplace dream||

||because the void is just a being on itself so maybe its mind is somewhat connected through dreams too so that when we dreamt we saw through the lost kins eyes and maybe they were infected because they felt grief to their sibling and father ,and wonder about the world which made them conscious and open for the radience which they kept away from their siblings||

[wanton zephyr]

No it’s the knight

The horn shapes are different

[wide lark]

maybe the knight saw themselves as them

[modest tusk]

🙂

h

[modest tusk]

how do u do that?

[wide lark]

do what?

[modest tusk]

like the thing that u need to perss so u can see

[valid rapids]

Thats baseless and takes away all the meaning from the cutscene

White Lady calls the experience a revelation

[rugged comet]

White Lady - Reacting to Charms - Listening after acquiring Void Heart

That pulsing emptiness... Truly, it has been transformed by the revelations it found.
Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it.
The fate of our Kingdom, our Hallownest... that future belongs to you now.

@mushspore used /npcs misc name: White Lady category: Reacting to Charms dialogue: Listening after acquiring Void Heart

[modest tusk]

🙂

[pure inlet]

TK getting transformed by the revelations of some random ahh bum 💔

[wide lark]

oh i didnt read allat in my playthrough

[modest tusk]

🙂

🙂

hello

[valid rapids]

You just put || around the text bruv

[modest tusk]

spoiler --> ||iam kinda vcless so that why iam chatting 😭||

🙂

[modest tusk]

it a secret shhhh

guys iam kinda vcless

🙂

[pure inlet]

What

[modest tusk]

did u know that the ||pale king|| did feel ||guilt|| bc of the thing he did to the ||vessels ||

[void lance]

Really?

I thought he didn’t until Pure vessel came along

But ik the white lady did

[sage bronze]

Yeah that’s like the whole point of his character

[small dawn]

Do you know the reason why pale king has an immerse love for buzzaws?

Is that bc of hornet first world being SHAW ?

[valid rapids]

Not funny

[small dawn]

Still why?

[bitter pasture]

So, she doesn't want to "Kill" us, but to take revenge or get our attention back on her, since, from what I understand, the ||Pale King|| has taken her place as god.

[near sequoia]

The Knight never had its attention on her in the first place, the moths were the only ones who were known to revere her

She does attempt killing us in-game or orders infected directly to do so

... how much longer... KILL IT... how much longer... DANGEROUS... how much longer... KILL IT... how much longer... KILL THE EMPTY ONE...

...how much longer... must I dig...?

But she is basically trying to get revenge on the Pale King/Moths yeah

[marble birch]

Well yeah. Radiance needs memory to exist, and so with everyone forgetting about her, she would have faded out of existence outright or at best gone into a very dormant/inert state. Once the miners found that statue of her, she used that mental foothold to cause the Infection.

[slender kite]

Could the pale king have beaten the radiance himself?

[blissful crest]

no

their powers are incompatible

[slender kite]

Wyrm form?

[blissful crest]

again, incompatible powers
The pale king is able to make wards that stop entry aside from the awoken dream nail

The radiance can just leave and go to another dream at any time

The only reason she doesn’t do this in our fight is because she is still sealed in THK

[slender kite]

Ah.

[patent forum]

you guys ever wonder why the pale king never got infected? was it because he was wyrm

[slender kite]

Radiance just had a skill issue.

[patent forum]

lol

[indigo venture]

I mean I really doubt he would embrace the Infection

because yk

He even did the abortion pit to try and get rid of it

[pure inlet]

Intelligent, composed, aware bugs with strong wills don’t get infected

Rad probably couldn’t infect a HB anyway

[half coyote]

Is it confirmed wether pale king was something else before turning into his big travel worm form? Or is it unknown??

[pure inlet]

Actually this sounds like hella glaze

Sorry

[pure inlet]

We don’t have any indication that he was anything but a big worm

[valid rapids]

and?

[half coyote]

He is a shape shifer of sorts

[valid rapids]

Nnot really?

Bardoon says that Wyrms transform, which appears like death.

So all wyrms do it, and presumably they start out that way

[half coyote]

The Mantis Tribe diddnt because they had a fortified mind.

Most of the inhabitants of Hallownest had “synthetic” intelligence from PK

[valid rapids]

And maybe are only able to do it that one time when theyre a huge wyrm (baseless)

[half coyote]

Grimm probably visited Hallownest in its prime and was like “be back when you all die 😊 ”

[indigo venture]

I mean if the "Wyrm" form, that looks like a real life wyrm

Isn't a Wyrm's "Base" form

Then what could it be

Not that strong of an argument, I'm aware

[half coyote]

There were other wyrms, maybe they share the same parent??

[indigo venture]

[indigo venture]

Why would TNH do this

They weren't summoned that we know of

they aren't like Mr. Shroom that can just show up whenever great change occurs, they need to be summoned via scouts and shi'

[half coyote]

There is the body of a follower in howling cliffs, also Grimm Knows PK

[indigo venture]

Not really?

They know the Kingdom was made by Worm and Root

But that could just be because TNH has that information

[half coyote]

Grimm when dreamnailed says something about PK, one sec

[indigo venture]

After all Grimm themselves probably have only lived since the last ritual

The Nightmare Heart may have gathered that information from the bugs Of Hallownest's nightmares

"Nightmare binds all" and all

[half coyote]

Dream Nailed after battle, before talking to him Masterful! Even a vessel discarded bears fierce strength.
Fine craft dear Wyrm, and perfect tool to prolong the heart of Grimm.

Dear Wyrm??

Like he knows him

[indigo venture]

God another PK glazer

[indigo venture]

I mean he likely has met other wyrms

Most wyrms do the same shit of trying to pull an eternal kingdom

Most wyrms are dead as fuck

Grimmtroupe visits dying kingdoms

The math checks out I'd say

[half coyote]

Maybe they were friends in youth??

[indigo venture]

Grimm isn't probably that old

Unless each ritual takes AGES to even happen

[half coyote]

Grimm probably is a diffrent person each ritual

[indigo venture]

"Probably"

[half coyote]

Unless the child is a literal clone

[indigo venture]

It factually is a different, albeit probably similar, being

[indigo venture]

Ye

TNH just really likes the name "grimm"

Look at the Grimmkin

[half coyote]

Grimm Adult…

[indigo venture]

That's just Troupe Master Grimm

[half coyote]

Also, is he saying TK shares Parentship here??

Bravo, my friend. Hear how the crowd adores you! They've not seen such a show in a long time.
Look here! How our child has grown, nourished and strengthened by the heat of our passionate dance

[indigo venture]

Hold on what dialogue is this?

Dreamnail right?

[half coyote]

After first fight

Not DN

[rugged comet]

Grimm - General - Dream Nailed after battle

Masterful! Even a vessel discarded bears fierce strength.
Fine craft dear Wyrm, and perfect tool to prolong the heart of Grimm.

@megathekindly used /npcs quest name: Grimm category: General dialogue: Dream Nailed after battle

[indigo venture]

To be fair WL is also aware of TNH and the Ritual itself

[rugged comet]

White Lady - Grimm Troupe - Listening while wearing Grimmchild or Carefree Melody

Ahh, that creature beside. It would be naive to claim it friend, though you two share a... similarity? It is a distant link, one words would strain to convey.
For it to cling to you now... You've been consumed in the Ritual of that scarlet clan.
In what poor moment they descend upon our ruin. Aid their propagation, if you so choose, but do not renege on the larger task this kingdom implores.

@megathekindly used /npcs quest name: White Lady category: Grimm Troupe dialogue: Listening while wearing Grimmchild or Carefree Melody

[valid rapids]

Grimm's got a crushie wushie on Wyrms since they found kingdoms for him to reap

[half coyote]

Yeah, so grimm must have viseted before the fall

[indigo venture]

They need to get in line behind Emilitia

[indigo venture]

Why would they do that 😭

Again, they could just know from Nightmares

[half coyote]

For fun

[indigo venture]

They don't need to physically be there since they (likely) wait in the very realm nightmares are from

[valid rapids]

I mean I do like the idea that the Troupe showed up previously when the infection first hit

[half coyote]

Some of the followers are real

[indigo venture]

Yeah?

They still disappear

It's either they wait somewhere in the wastelands, or Nightmare realm

[half coyote]

Not the body in the cliffs

[valid rapids]

Yeah the troupe vibes in the dream realm given the grimmsteed dn

[indigo venture]

Because their whole function is to scout

And then die

And then to be found and work as a cog in the machine to get the ritual started in the dying kingdom it found

[half coyote]

Wouldn’t that mean Dream Nails are in other kingdoms for this to work??

[valid rapids]

I really feel like the DN interaction cant be how the troupe typically works

[indigo venture]

Yeah

that's why I didn't explicitely say it needed the DN

It just happens

[valid rapids]

Imo like maybe their shit got bulldozed when they first arrived, and the DN just brings back their lanterns from memory

[indigo venture]

And it just so happens that in Hallownest's case, is through the Dream Nail

[half coyote]

I mean, PK somehow moved the whole of the palace. I dont think a dream nail could do that

[indigo venture]

Cornifer swept

[valid rapids]

So it wasnt how it was intended to happen

[indigo venture]

That or Mato

[pure inlet]

I assume the big troupe guy corpse would have fulfilled a role similar to how Brumm lets us banish the Troupe

He probably gives us some medium and calls the Troupe with the lantern

[half coyote]

The Fire Pit only appears after you DN him.

[valid rapids]

I mean there was a building there

So I assume the grimmscout built it in the cave

Along with the lanterns

Instead of just stumbling on a ruin and just deciding to put the lantern there

[pure inlet]

No like hypothetically

He would have

[half coyote]

The hand statue??

[valid rapids]

No the background of the room

Its a building inconsistent with like how Hallownest and Mosskin ones look

[half coyote]

I gtg sry

[valid rapids]

Weird spiral pillars just like the spiral grimm lanterns

[indigo venture]

Wait wait, 4 flames

Novice, Master, Nightmare. And a big one

Grimm is a flame

Foreshadowing

[valid rapids]

Theres more lanterns offscreen unfort

[indigo venture]

Damn it

That just means there are more Grimmkin's

[slender kite]

First time I heard the word Grimmkin I thought they were donuts.

[indigo venture]

[slender kite]

What? I was hungry at the time.

[signal iron]

Do. Not. Eat. My. SON!!!!

[slender kite]

Why shouldn’t I?

[signal iron]

I wouldn't suggest that, but go ahead.

[slender kite]

I mean, he’s grape flavored.

[indigo venture]

Channel Description

[slender kite]

Fun-ruiner.

-# I’m joking.

[zealous timber]

say what species of worm / what beast in the kingdom of fauna is the White Wyrm based off of if any?

[indigo venture]

The mythological Wyrm, I guess

[zealous timber]

thanks... I guess

[sand mirage]

I get kind of Dune sandworms vibes from it

[valid rapids]

Ngl I do wonder if Wyrms molt to grow, making lots of 'cast off shell's. Before they eventually settle down and transform.

Based on nothing! Besides it lining up with like, irl grub biology

[ionic quiver]

I have a theory for what the vetruvian grub is

Ok so imagine this:

You’re the collector, right?

Driven mad and whatnot

But what if

You are trying to capture every species right

What if you know about grub metamorphosis

And what if you’ve maybe seen a grub molt before

We don’t know how old the collector is

So here’s my theory:

He’s trying to figure out how to force the metamorphosis

Maybe by injecting soul

Or by doing something else

But he’s trying to get one of the captured grubs into a grubberfly

Or whatever it’s called

[vale oyster]

But why would he place them all over hallownest

[ionic quiver]

Idk

There’s some flaws with

It

My best guess?

He’s testing different locales with the effects of metamorphosis

[valid rapids]

Doesnt really make sense when they up and start the grubberfly process in grubdad once freed from the collector

And their jars are mundane jars

[shadow gate]

Team cherry lied

They said that all endings were cannon but if that were true than the sealed siblings ending would not exist

[split compass]

it's true

they're lying liars who lied to all of us

[shadow gate]

Makes me sad

[humble current]

Is this ragebait 🤔

[tacit timber]

well, if you go for silksong act 2 endings, sealed siblings could still be canon

she would just have to have gotten out of the egg, somehow. maybe the knight manages to kill radiance while she's in him and her dreamer status is released

[indigo venture]

Do we know who exactly placed the "Seal" around the dead Kingsmould in Palace Grounds?

Was it PK when taking the castle? Someone from the exterior

[marble gorge]

Idk, maybe the pale king just told him to keep his mind sealed?

[signal marlin]

sealed siblings would exist

[willow sun]

Leb

[split compass]

we're never told outright, but PK is the most likely candidate

he moved the palace, sealed it up, and filled it with buzzsaws - he didn't want anyone coming to visit

[floral nest]

was it ever truly confirmed tye term “higher beings” refered to gods as opposed to just sentient bugs?

[karmic crescent]

They are god-like beings

Specifically "existing above all other" or "of a higher caste beyond bug"

[floral nest]

I get this understanding but the lore tablet in cliffs near the grimm troupe talks about taking off your mask and reavealing your true self

ill show a picture if i can find one

[karmic crescent]

That is different. That just means you become someone else or have a different personality when you adopt a mask which often hides or seals away your original self

Such as for Brumm/Nymm

[floral nest]

all the kings pass and cliff tablets start with “higher beings, theses words are for you alone”

[karmic crescent]

I believe this is from a dialogue between Hornet and Lace on SK

[karmic crescent]

Hm but there are other tablets in multiple places that the knight can read and they don't start with that phrase

Meaning these kings pass and cliff tablets are specifically for higher beings alone

Bugs already have their own dictionary

[floral nest]

They are also located at the entrance to the kingdom

where intelligent bugs would be

[karmic crescent]

That's why the tablets such as the ones at soul sanctum, fungal etc.

[karmic crescent]

Higher beings already have power beyond bug. The bugs can't read those tablets that start with that phrase

[floral nest]

these tablets are inside the kingdom where every bug would have been enhanced by the pale kings beacon therefore rendering the sentence useless

[karmic crescent]

Yes but doesn't mean that's their origin

Bugs were still in Hallownest

[floral nest]

i dont think we’re getting anywhere in this debate

[karmic crescent]

All spread out

Pk just ascended them

Then they were attracted to him. They started praying to him as a god and pk likely built those tablet right about this time

[karmic crescent]

Ig :p

[floral nest]

i guess ill call it here

[karmic crescent]

Oh well

Fun while it lasted

But they are gods tho

Power beyond bug

[limber needle]

Hello

What's up

[naive yacht]

Theoretically speaking, could there be another location somewhere in the depths of the mossy lands created by Unn, not counting the three in the game?

[vale oyster]

Yes

The world is 3d

We only see a 2d slice of it

[naive yacht]

Great. Now all that remains is to come up with a good idea. I'll come back to you for ideas.

Oh yes, I forgot to ask. Were the mossy ones running wild and overgrown just because of the plague, or because Unn hid?

[karmic crescent]

Infection

[elfin remnant]

What about the squits and obbles

[indigo venture]

What bout them

[elfin remnant]

Are they also infected?

[karmic crescent]

Yes

[elfin remnant]

Ah ok, thanks

[karmic crescent]

Obbles literally shoot infection

Well infected spits ig

Squits are just infected

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Squit

Description:
Charges at prey with its needle-like proboscis.

Hunter's notes:
When they lunge at you, don't panic. Stand your ground, and strike back as they come close.

Dream Nail:
...Light...Danger...
...Safe...Dark...
...Hungry...Hungry...
...Scared...
...Eat...When...
...Kill...Hurt...
...Away. Away...
...Pain...

@megathekindly used /journal name: Squit

[indigo venture]

That seems infected to me

[still gulch]

The fact Mantis Lords have the exact same head shape as the Hollow Knight being a "coincidence" still baffles me to this day

[naive yacht]

Can a bug that has been infected with the plague go crazy after the end of the plague?

[indigo venture]

Explosive bat looking the same as a certain someone

[indigo venture]

I mean they're mindbroken

My guess is that they go into a vegetive state or just slump over

Their minds are like, gone

[indigo venture]

Also the head shapes have a few differences

[wanton zephyr]

I mean
Further affirming that vessels are supposed to look like normal bugs

[indigo venture]

Mantis Lords aren't normal bugs they cool

[wanton zephyr]

[indigo venture]

I love 'em

[vale oyster]

There are no other big similarities

There needs to be more than just looking similar

[slender kite]

Belflies whenever someone tries to peacefully wander through royal waterways:

[still gulch]

I guess so

[dawn musk]

Why does dung defender make a statue of you

[indigo venture]

Respect

[wanton zephyr]

You cooked him 5 times, he respected you

[grizzled wigeon]

Aren’t most of them just reanimated corpses?

[wanton zephyr]

I mean we don’t know

They might just be alive but mindbroken

[pure inlet]

When you’re infected your organs become toxic goop

Basically making you an animated corpse

It’s unlikely that infected bugs will live

[cedar notch]

Guys is death canon

The shade is but is respawning?

Are benches canon and if so what are they

[pure inlet]

No

Once the shell breaks it doesn’t reform

Benches don’t really respawn you

Canonically they’re there but like sitting on them is sort of a time passing representation

[marble birch]

Technically yes, Ghost being able to come back from Death is part of the canon, given Confessor Jiji exists and your Shade is even listed in the Journal. The Shade can be interacted with and even summoned via Jiji.

The only times Ghost goes down for good is when it either: Becomes the Lord of Shades in Dream No More, or transcends into Void Given Focus in Embrace The Void, at which point Ghost more or less loses access to its ability to return to its split shell and reanimate.

[cedar notch]

So where does the knight respawn

[marble birch]

Most likely it regathers its shell at the most recent bench it sat on to recuperate, as it associates them with safe locations where it isn’t at risk of being attacked upon resurrection.

[cedar notch]

That makes sense

Probably just where it can rest rather than at actual benches

[marble birch]

Then it needs to go track down its Shade, as it carries a sliver of Ghost’s lost power and all of its Geo.

[cedar notch]

I mean you can sit on some random ass bugs corpse

[marble birch]

Anything that acts as a safe spot to rest.

[cedar notch]

I wouldn't feel safe sitting next to leg eater but to each their own

[wanton zephyr]

Shade is canon
Respawning isn’t
Death isn’t
The knight’s shell cannot be reformed if it’s broken

[cedar notch]

What about the shade trap

[marble birch]

Technically it can. Ghost has this unique trait on account of it possessing a higher form of will compared to other Vessels. This is why Ghost, and Ghost alone, has the ability to come back from a shell split, but it leaves behind a Shade as a consequence.

[cedar notch]

If death isn't is the shade trap?

[wanton zephyr]

Not canon

You are basically playing on steel soul

[marble birch]

How is it not canon. Jiji wouldn’t exist otherwise, and the Hunter himself acknowledges the existence of the Shade as a stain from a past life.

[wanton zephyr]

Gameplay purposes

[cedar notch]

So far I'm believing that vessels can respawn with help

[marble birch]

It is not just gameplay: Other characters interact with and comment on the existence of the Shade and recognize that you perished and came back.

[cedar notch]

I'm believing you more but can you provide examples

[marble birch]

Most can’t. Ghost is a unique case due to possessing a stronger will compared to its siblings. This is why all the other Vessels that died simply became Shades that hang around in the Abyss.

[wanton zephyr]

Which character aside from Jiji recognize that you perished and came back

[cedar notch]

Can the hollow knight itself respawn

[marble birch]

The Hunter recognizes the Shade for what it is: A stain from a past life. He’s aware of Ghost’s unique nature of being capable to resurrect if slain, albeit with limitations.

[wanton zephyr]

And if respawning is canon explain why if you take the stag to a station and die before sitting at a bench the stag isn’t there when you respawn

[marble birch]

Most likely not. It’s already in bad shape and has become Infected, resulting in it being little more than an animate corpse the Radiance puppets around.

[cedar notch]

I guess in asking could it have respawned

Shade trap is the main reason

[marble birch]

Wait so the Stag isn’t where you dropped it off after you died?

[cedar notch]

If death is canon is hollow knight which I do believe is it canon is silksong?

[marble birch]

Weird. Every time i’ve died the Stag was still always in the last Station I left him at, regardless of distance traveled or if I died before making it to another Bench.

[signal marlin]

it isnt canon

[wanton zephyr]

No, the stag is where you left it off after you died
But TK isn’t

So what did it do? Time travel? Teleportation? How did it fix its mask? “Higher will” doesn’t hold water cuz there’s nothing in canon that says it can just repair a shell after it’s broken with a higher will

[signal marlin]

TK doesnt have a "stronger will" and this is circular

[marble birch]

Good question, though this doesn’t change the fact Ghost’s ability to resurrect is acknowledged by the game and its world.

[signal marlin]

it isnt

[marble birch]

It is? Have you perhaps taken a gander at the Journal? The Hunter himself acknowledges your Shade existing, which only crops up as a result of you dying and coming back.

[signal marlin]

its never acknowledged and TC removed dialogue that acknowledged it. although we cant know why that dialogue was removed, it certainly shows some intent to distance themselves from the idea

[signal marlin]

he doesnt acknowlege the shade

[indigo venture]

It just talks about leaving an imprint in the world

It isn't directly referencing the shade or anything of the sort

[marble birch]

He does. He has Notes on that exact creature in his Journal, for pity’s sake.

[indigo venture]

Similar to some entries about bosses

His notes don't actually talk about the creature

There's exception to this, yes, but the shade isn't one

[signal marlin]

having notes doesnt necessarily mean it refers specifically to the creature. a lot of times it just reflects ideas or themes

[marble birch]

How does he not? A ‘stain left behind’ is exactly what the Shade is: An echo of a previous life.

[indigo venture]

Because that just happens in general with creatures after death

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Shade

Description:
Echo of a previous life. Defeat it to retake its power and become whole.

Hunter's notes:
Each of us leaves an imprint of something when we die. A stain on the world. I don't know how much longer this kingdom can bear the weight of so many past lives...

@megathekindly used /journal name: Shade

[indigo venture]

"Each of us"

[marble birch]

Man there’s literally only two dots to connect and you’re just choosing to fail at the puzzle willingly.

[indigo venture]

He's referring to himself

Hunter does not have a shade, does he?

He's talking in general, broad strokes

As he does with other examples

[signal marlin]

no, its just how the journal works and what its intent is. this is not really a productive thing to say

[marble birch]

Pretty sure when he says ‘each of us’, The Knight is also referred to in this. He is aware of the odd, black creature it leaves behind if it should ever perish.

[wanton zephyr]

Funny enough, the shade’s journal entry is completed upon acquiring the journal

Which means you don’t even have to hit a shade to get the entry

So where did the hunter get the shade entry from

[hot lily]

the Knight doesn't canonically resurrect

[indigo venture]

Correct, because TK upon death would leave an stain in the world

As hunter would

as Hornet would

[signal marlin]

🐌

[indigo venture]

As Zote would

Again, it's clearly referring not that much to the shade, but what the shade symbolizes

[hot lily]

the top part of the Journal entries are not written by the Hunter, only the bottom

[indigo venture]

Yeah it's by the omnisciente narrator or wtv

I dunno' how to describe it

You can tell which parts are written by who thanks to the eyes/dream nail particle at the bottom

[marble birch]

Again: The Hunter has notes on the creature you leave behind upon death, Jiji’s existence, hell even the Colosseum has a Void-attuned room specifically designed to keep your Shade there. Hell the Collector even captures your Shade and puts it in one of his jars.

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Radiance

Description:
The light, forgotten.

Hunter's notes:
The plague, the infection, the madness that haunts the corpses of Hallownest... the light that screams out from the eyes of this dead Kingdom. What is the source? I suppose mere mortals like myself will never understand.

Dream Nail:
...ANCIENT ENEMY...
...I DO NOT FEAR YOU...
...LET ME BE FREE...
...I WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN...
...DAWN WILL BREAK...
...THE LIGHT CANNOT BE CONSUMED...

@nnadia_m used /journal name: Radiance text: Full Text

[signal marlin]

ts hunter isnt always referring to the creature 🗣️

[indigo venture]

We dunno' what the purpose of the room in Colo is lorewise

[wanton zephyr]

The convenient omniscient narrator of the world who knows everything about every creature

[indigo venture]

Game-wise it's obviously a room for the shade, but it could perfectly be an AC civilization structure

Which are known to have that kind of "Theme" of structures

[marble birch]

Man you’re still missing the two dots. Come on, you can do it. Spark that one neuron of yours.

[signal marlin]

a lot of this isnt proof of respawning being canon, just that the shade can interact with the world

[indigo venture]

Do you really think being condescending is helping your case

[hot lily]

the Coloseeum room was not meant specifically to summon Shades as Vessels didn't exist prior to the first wave of Infection

[signal marlin]

this is also unnecessary

[indigo venture]

I mean I don't mind but it's kind of useless

[hot lily]

it's an ancient civilization room, who themselves existed LONG before Hallownest

[indigo venture]

Ancient civilization is ancient

[hot lily]

the Collector capturing your Shade is irrelevant, because Void itself is already known to be contained within other objects (Void Idol)

[indigo venture]

It just proves Shades are effectively weak to jars

[wanton zephyr]

The hunter’s journal is supposed to be deciphered, and yet the shade is automatically deciphered

Almost like the knight just know what it is and doesn’t need to kill a shade to fill it

What is the lore reason for that
Real question

[indigo venture]

Uh

[wet wyvern]

yo 😭

gurt

[blissful crest]

it’s like
not canon to the story

[indigo venture]

Which entries in the Journal are canon

I'm guessing the one's required for Hunter's Mark arecanon

[blissful crest]

that’s not what I mean

[indigo venture]

Yeah I know

I'm asking

[blissful crest]

all of them reasonably should be, although things like the radiance, dream bosses, warrior dreams wouldn’t be in there

We are meant to be decrypting the journal after all

[signal marlin]

joker making a comeback in 2026 🗣️

[indigo venture]

That's Joker?

[signal marlin]

yes

[indigo venture]

Yupiee