sk-lore

[near jasper]

Why

And also no one in verdania tought to break him out?

[trail wagon]

I possess a question

Did GMS take over Karak, Verdania and other civilizations, or were it the Weavers with the Citadel?

How exactly did GMS even create a full-fledged kingdom?

And for that matter what did she even really do if all of these civilizations had already existed prior to her appearance and the Citadel was built after she was put to sleep?

[limpid summit]

GMS didn’t create a kingdom as far as we know, the Weavers were the only ones who she was content to directly rule under. But dialogue suggests that she did fight with Khann and Karmelita for territory. We don’t know about Verdania or Nyleth

[trail wagon]

What dialogues? I missed it ig

[limpid summit]

She pretty much hung around while the Weavers worshipped and made music for her

[limpid summit]

“Now none to resist…but us…Alone…against the pale light” from Karak NDD

And then Karmelita is said to have united the Skarr against GMS’s will in her youth

[trail wagon]

NDD?

[limpid summit]

This could refer to the Haunting but probably not considering that would mean she was young and withered in an era long after everything else had happened

She’s not meant to be an Elderbug type character who is actually young

[limpid summit]

Needolin dialogue

[trail wagon]

oh

where can all dialogues/tables be found?

I'm not sure if the wiki has them all

The last time I checked a lot was missing

[foggy fractal]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Needolin_Locations

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Lore_Tablets_(Silksong)

[limpid summit]

^^

[trail wagon]

I know of these pages, but just wasn't sure if they're complete

[foggy fractal]

looks pretty complete to me

[trail wagon]

Alrighty, appreciate

[lucid knot]

I wonder if pearl beads being worth a meager 15 will be explored upon in Sea of Sorrow.

[paper mantle]

What are all the occasions where that word is used?

I have two

[kindred ingot]

is there a doc with every line of dialogue, lore tablet, description, and stuff like that?

[foggy fractal]

I remember there being a document that's every line in game but it is not organized in the slightest

you're better off going to the wiki imo

that or you already have something in mind/a keyword you remember and can search up

[kindred ingot]

it doesn't need to, I'd just use ctrl-F to look for a specific word's every use

[foggy fractal]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ee0O2Dm3zl9gK-s-TRfu3brCSMPlOYdBZIqBpA76Iys/edit?usp=sharing

[paper mantle]

'Holy cast' and 'high cast bug'. Where are they from?

[kindred ingot]

"High Caste" bug is from Vaultkeeper's Journal entry

"Holy Caste" is from Seamstress's dialogue

[paper mantle]

Thank you

[paper mantle]

High cast bug is a synonym of Higher Cast?

[kindred ingot]

no, it just means they're important

[paper mantle]

Oh, ok

[young maple]

i have an important question to ask

[dire lynx]

yeah?

[young maple]

if lore is your power what are you without it?

[tawdry flare]

Free

[foggy stratus]

Unbound by the shackles that bind. Free of higher thought, higher will. No king. No mind. Released. Cleansed by the stain of this intellect granted by our god-king. Returned to the greater mass of the Void. The collective.

[grave stream]

What is the real silksong wiki????

[foggy fractal]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Hollow_Knight_Wiki use this one

[foggy stratus]

Basically anything but Fandom is passable.

[sinful nimbus]

Fandom shot my dog 😔

[foggy fractal]

Fandom killed my grandma

[tawdry flare]

I need to go grief the fandom wiki brb

[near jasper]

Me

[foggy stratus]

Fandom keyed my dog

[robust wagon]

Fandom biled my water

[lucid knot]

Are pearl beads actually pearls? Or... pale-things?

[foggy stratus]

Seeing as they're highly rare its possible.

Or maybe its made of Pale Ore and that's why we dont see any in Pharloom?

[lucid knot]

No, I'm talking about these: https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Rosaries

[craggy smelt]

yes

entry from the Materium

[foggy stratus]

Yeah. Im aware.

[lucid knot]

They're carved rather intricately despite the fact that pearls are already a precious gemstone.

Unless they're not clam pearls but a white mineral/metal.

[foggy stratus]

Which, in theory, could be Pale Ore.

[craggy smelt]

we've seen hints barnacles and mussels, clams and therefore pearls are certainly possible

there's some kind of pearl-like globes in the Sands of Karak that control crust growths

[craggy smelt]

the carvings are of religious significance, so it's not just the inherent mateiral value of the rosary that distinguishes its worth

gotta have that prayerful goodness on it too

[lucid knot]

You're right. There's a reason why societies would press gold coins instead of just trading gold pieces.

-# Well, ancient Egypt/Rome traded precious metals in pieces.

[paper mantle]

I'm going to ask a rather silly question:

1. Greyroot, or her child, is a Higher Being?

2. Eva could have been a Higher Being if the plan went well?

[limpid summit]

1. Greyroot itself probably not, Twisted Child a little more likely but probably not because it sort of just farms a weakened HB and demigod that doesn’t place it “above all others” in the way other HBs are

2. Yeah that was what they were trying to do

[craggy smelt]

I don't think either of them are/would be normally, but since in this case the twisted bud parasities an actual higher being and another pale being that has the potential to become one, then baby probably counts as one now

and with Eva I think the goal was to make something like Hornet, a savior with the potential to 'weave them free'
which might have involved her toppling GMS and maybe replacing her

[paper mantle]

So she, in that hipotetical case, could be a HB?

[limpid summit]

The being that the twisted child becomes might be a HB yeah

[craggy smelt]

I guess it depends on the outcome - if Eva had turned out to be the savior, and wound up binding GMS, then maybe she'd become the new weaver queen

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the weavers had the tech to make her one

[craggy smelt]

yea, she fell short of what they'd hoped for

[paper mantle]

[paper mantle]

Now that I think about it, it also depends on the method Eva used

Pure Vessel seal Radiance

And PV is not a HB

[robust wagon]

Well, there's not evidence to whether they are or aren't one, really. There's an argument for both

[craggy smelt]

yah, binding is pretty different from sealing

[paper mantle]

I think no because there is a more than one creations of HB, and that's creation are not HB
Like the Mothkins, the Mosskins, etc

[robust wagon]

Wdym creation? If you mean a tribe created by them, neither WL or PK have tribes they directly created

I'll be honest tho, I don't think PV is a higher being (but for a different reason)

[paper mantle]

For me, creation would be that which was/was born as a result of a magical power
We have Unn with the Mosskins (made with a deep dream) and Radiance and the moths (born from a light)

[paper mantle]

The vessels, on the other hand, appear to be biological offspring.

[limpid summit]

Assigning explicit categories to HBs is a bit complicated because there will always be confirmed cases (in this case TK) that lie outside the norm

The only distinct category is that they “exist above all others”, presumably referring to powers that may manifest differently but are similarly world-shaking in nature

PV is very strong and probably the most powerful mortal but it doesn’t show off any abilities that place it above all non-HB bugs like life creation, void manipulation, dream control, et cetera

These aren’t specific categories just different ways in which these beings firmly are placed above mortals

[robust wagon]

When is TK confirmed to be a HB? Do you mean PK?

[limpid summit]

Well I guess both

Neither directly crrate life

But TK with Void Heart is implied to be a HB by Bardoon

Vessels aren’t naturally HBs

Probably one of the most naturally strong non-HB species though

[calm token]

I reckon all vessels are higher beings as they are a DIRECT offspring from the pale king and white lady. They aren't dreamed into existence like the mosskin. However they are probably quite weak from the start but given the oppurutnity they can become quite strong like the pire vessel and the knight

Like how hornet is half

[twin dragon]

Higher beings aren't birthed

[whole holly]

of maybe we will see pearl producing molluscs

[fallow delta]

[foggy stratus]

Phantom and Lace are made from the body and substance of a Higher Being, and the Weavers, who arguably inherited traits from GMS, are neither Higher Beings. As well as Higher Being not being an inheritable trait, but instead more so a state of being.

[low oracle]

Personally I also think that every Higher Being is unique and has to be the Higher Being of something. For example, GMS is the HB of silk. In the Weaver Queen ending, Hornet binds GMS, becoming the new HB of silk. No new HB is brought into existence and they don't change either. It seems all Higher Beings have a certain nature tied to them, which they all follow regardless if they want to or not. Weaver Queen is bad because Hornet just becomes another tyrannical ruler, as her nature forces her to be.

It is uncertain how the void absorbing/destroying Higher Beings ties into this, though I do have a theory. When the Radiance, the HB of light (I think? That or of Dreams, though other HBs can also utilize them) meets her end, perhaps an empty "slot" is created. Under the right circumstances, another being could take her place and become the Higher Being of light.
I suggest this because we never actually see a HB of the void, yet we see and hear that it was worshipped. Perhaps the HB of the void was killed by the Radiance a long time ago, ending the worship brought to it*. Now another being took the place of the Shade Lord/Lord of Shades/HB of the Void, and defeating the Radiance.

*This theory is largely reasonable as the Radiance calls the void "ANCIENT ENEMY", implying prior conflict.

[foggy stratus]

Or its that Vessels have been around a long time by now and she's referring to that.

[fading shard]

the void is outright said to have never had a lord until the knight

[low oracle]

Idk how the Pale King would work in this, though there are definite possibilities. The King's Brand is the most obvious way the PK's place could be taken, though the Knight has already become something different. In Embrace the Void, THK is a valid option, though not so much in Dream No More.

[low oracle]

Isn't there a guy that literally says "Lord of Shades" when dreamnailed after aquiring the Void Heart?

[foggy stratus]

Yes and it refers to you. And prior to it the guy says "Void Power Without Unity"

[random harbor]

Dream Nail: The Abyss - Shade Beast - "...Void... Power... Without unity..."

...Void... Power... Without unity...

@lexmolten used /dream-nail area: The Abyss name: Shade Beast - "...Void... Power... Without unity..."

[low oracle]

Interesting. Is there any other power without unity that we know of? Lifeblood I guess could fit, though neither is confirmed.

[foggy stratus]

After Void Heart TK becomes the first and so far only Void linked Higher Being.

[foggy stratus]

No not really.

[low oracle]

Also, couldn't this technically just apply to the present? If there isn't unity right now, doesn't mean there never was. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here.

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Void Idol

Description:
Attuned
Rare artifact from a time before Hallownest. Contains a drop of liquid from the Abyss.

Ascended
Rare artifact from a time before Hallownest. Volatile liquid of the Abyss writhes within.

Radiant
Rare artifact from a time before Hallownest, its spires twined in a unified form. Contains a large amount of liquid from the Abyss, perfectly still.

Hunter's notes:
"Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself."
- Lemm

@lexmolten used /journal name: Void Idol

[foggy stratus]

Lemm, the most knowledgeable individual we have on the Ancient Civilization, says they worshipped no Lord, Power or Strength.

[spark valve]

There’s also Bardoon calling it a strength before unseen

[low oracle]

Though I don't see this as concrete confirmation due to space for interpretation, I agree that it very much seems as though the Knight is the first.

[fading shard]

additionally all lore tablets from the ancient civilization

refer to the void itself

then to any being

it'd be like if somebody talked to soul

[hearty forge]

I thought it was pretty clear that void can't really have a higher being to rule it, it's special in that way. It's self contained, only the void I'd the lord of the void.

[foggy stratus]

I mean it outright says the AC didnt worship something that could be seen as a Higher Being and Bardoon, the generally knowledgeable guy on most things metaphysical, says the power TK now has is unprecedented.

[foggy stratus]

Except for TK.

[hearty forge]

Yeah but it's not separate to the void, the higher being of the void, is the void.

[low oracle]

I agree completely, I'm just saying that I can see room for interpretation.

[hearty forge]

The knight is void too.

Yeah

[foggy stratus]

Its TK's specific will that unites the Void.

[low oracle]

Well that does apply to all Higher Beings though.

[hearty forge]

The radiance isn't all dreams is it.

Idk, you could interpret it differently

[low oracle]

She literally explodes into essence in both endings where she get defeated.

GMS is silk.

[hearty forge]

So do the dream bosses

[low oracle]

NKG is seemingly either nightmare essence or flame.

[low oracle]

Because they're also made of essence. Phantom also explodes into silk, because she is made of silk. Yet she doesn't have to be a Higher Being made of silk, like GMS.

[hearty forge]

They are that thing, but all of that thing is not THE higher being.

[hearty forge]

I agree

But that's not exactly what I'm saying

[foggy stratus]

Technically TK isnt all of the Void since Pharloom's Void behaves independently of it until TK shows up with the belt.

So we could assume until TK beats all pockets of Void into submission, it isnt all of the Void.

Wait I might have misinterpreted something.

[hearty forge]

If you were to kill gms or the radiance, silk and dreams would still exist. But if you got rid of the void (in hallownest) then the lord of shades wouldn't exist.

Void and the lord of shades are the same thing

Idk about pharlooms void tho

[exotic pendant]

TK is basically poseidon type logic

[low oracle]

That is kind of contradictory. How would you erase all void in Hallownest prior to erasing the Shade Lord? Your first point does make sense with my Higher Being replacement theory though.

[foggy stratus]

That's assuming you could even destroy Void. And that also assume that you could kill the Shade Lord in the first place.

[exotic pendant]

what even happened in godhome delicate flower ending

[foggy stratus]

The Void got teleported ig.

[hearty forge]

Wait no, bad example

[exotic pendant]

delicate flower so confusing vro, does it destroy void or does it teleport or both

[low oracle]

I also find it important to state that the Vessels aren't all 100% void. They have pale masks (mask as in head) and a black shell (as in body). Only their sould is replaced by void, which is why they're technically dead in a way. Their pale mask still gives off soul though.

[hearty forge]

Where did this debate even come from, I joined like midway through

[foggy stratus]

It repels Void mostly.

[foggy stratus]

It wasnt just their Soul, it was like all of their internal components.

[exotic pendant]

so basically what happened in godhome ending was that the delicate flower repeled shade lord so far it got yeeted like it teleported

[foggy stratus]

Yeah ig.

[hearty forge]

Does godhome count as a dream

[exotic pendant]

yes and no?

[low oracle]

Yes, which is also why the Broken Vessel could be easily used as a suit for the Infection to use.

[foggy stratus]

Its in the Dream Realm so kinda.

Its probably similar to WP to a degree.

[hearty forge]

I wonder if it's also to do with ar

Not the flower

Godhome

And godseeker being yeeted

[low oracle]

Well, it's a real place inside the Dream Realm. If it weren't real, the way ascending works doesn't add up. Individual pantheons seem like unreal dreams though.

Like White Palace is real, but the Failed Champion isn't. Does that make sense?

Also, Path of Pain probably is a dream too, without a real place.

[foggy stratus]

Not like a physical space put into the Dream Realm but like a physical space made in the Dream Realm.

[hearty forge]

Yeah I get it

Didn't all the godseekers move into godhome

[foggy stratus]

Yeah.

[hearty forge]

Once the knight becomes the SL it connects to all of the abyss

[foggy stratus]

The Void*

[hearty forge]

So it's 'consciousness' could have just been teleported back

Yeah

[foggy stratus]

Not sure why you put consciousness in ''

[hearty forge]

After it gains a will does it also gain a proper mind?

[twin dragon]

all the godseekers merged into one i think

[hearty forge]

TK*

[foggy stratus]

Its always had a will and mind.

[twin dragon]

Tk always had a mind

[hearty forge]

I think it gained a will after getting kingsoul

[twin dragon]

no

it had a will

thats the point

the vessels had wills

always

[hearty forge]

Otherwise it wouldn't have been a perfect vessel for ending 1

[twin dragon]

the shades are named fragments of lingering wills for a reason

[twin dragon]

there never was a perfect vessel

[foggy stratus]

A Vessel without a will wouldn't do anything. As well as it not being able to reject anything offered, which it does.

A willless Vessel would just sit at the bottom of the Abyss and probably die to a rock falling on it.

[hearty forge]

The hk was tarnished by an idea instilled

Implying it was perfect before

[foggy stratus]

Its supposed strength was also illjudged.

Implying it being deemed Pure was incorrect.

[hearty forge]

Ig

[foggy stratus]

WL lowkey just says shit for the hell of it sometimes tbh.

[hearty forge]

I think I just prefer tk to gain a will later on fir storytelling purposes

[exotic pendant]

can you blame her she's bored asf

[hearty forge]

Like have you watched silksong and the biblical apocalypse

[foggy stratus]

Well its just wrong. A willless Vessel wouldn't do the things TK does. And nothing that happens would just make it grow a will for some reason.

[foggy stratus]

Is that one video?

[hearty forge]

Yes

It's peak

[foggy stratus]

What's it about?

[hearty forge]

I think the name is pretty obvious

[foggy stratus]

I dont see how Silksong could tie into any biblical prophecy or apocalypse.

[hearty forge]

But pretty much over analysing silksong in comparison to the book if revelation and the bible

[foggy stratus]

My brother in Void how.

[hearty forge]

The endings

[twin dragon]

Nah not rlly

[hearty forge]

Philosophy stuf

[twin dragon]

I find the fact that the pale king tried to go with it even though it wasn't clear is much more compelling

[exotic pendant]

me when the exodus is the weavers leaving pharloom...?

[hearty forge]

I think ccmaci has a video on vessels and wills

Though I watched it a while ago

The pale king does have foresight

[foggy stratus]

Flawed foresight tho.

As in it can only see so far.

[hearty forge]

How flawed is the question

[exotic pendant]

wait the weavers leaving is technically an exodus-
but I'm struggling to see more comparisons

[twin dragon]

very flawed

[hearty forge]

Hold on

[foggy stratus]

It could see a good distance into the future but not far enough to see THK failing.

[hearty forge]

I'll try to summarise the video

I cannot

[foggy stratus]

Also do you prefer this to be the case because it would mean TK wouldn't fail like THK did?

[hearty forge]

U have to go watch it for yourselves

[hearty forge]

Mireso because it makes the true ending more meaningful

I think

[twin dragon]

Imo not really

It adds to pk's character

that out of desperation he was willing to take anything

And the fact that sealing the radiance wasnt the solution

[foggy stratus]

How tho?

[hearty forge]

If the knight had a will to begin, then he could have always unified the void by getting the void heart. But why would he choose to replace THK if he is an imperfect vessel.

[twin dragon]

Tk thinks it is his destiny to do so and thk calls for replacement i think

[exotic pendant]

there is the theory that the mask makes the vessels focus on this destiny too

[hearty forge]

He just becomes the hollow knight again, and the radiance will break out again. But if he cared for at least hornet, then he would choose to save hallownsst for good

[exotic pendant]

my guy this is the lore channel, you're gonna be corrected to calling TK it/its

[hearty forge]

At least for longer that bad ending

Aaaaa

[foggy stratus]

Every game needs a "bad ending" and THK and Sealed Siblings serves as that. TK is lead to think that this is the only option it possibly has to save Hallownest, and inadvertently falls into a similar mistake as the PK in thinking it could defy nature.

[foggy stratus]

They/them also works imo for certain circumstances.

[exotic pendant]

also that reminds me, how tf does the hollow knight ending and sealed siblings work

[foggy stratus]

Wdym?

[exotic pendant]

another egg just replaces the broken door seal

[foggy stratus]

Magic.

[exotic pendant]

magic that's never explained be like:

[foggy stratus]

Like honestly just magic.

Probably how it was programmed.

[hearty forge]

Maybe the pale king did see the knight becoming the next hk

[foggy stratus]

Nothing suggests that.

[hearty forge]

Also I think the white lady is some interesting dialogue on the kingsoul and void heart and vessels

[foggy stratus]

At most maybe at the tail end of his life he foresaw TK arriving to Hallownest after a while, but thats it.

[exotic pendant]

btw is the underground lighting ever addressed

[twin dragon]

higher beings glow i think

[foggy stratus]

Probably either bugs have adapted dark sight or its bioluminescent fungi/plants/microbes

[exotic pendant]

yeah but that's just assumptions, the game doesn't adress this right

it just exists

[foggy stratus]

Dark rooms have a common link of being either enclosed rooms or natural caves without much plant life.

I think.

[exotic pendant]

I mean it could be because the other way around
no plant because no light

[hearty forge]

The white lady atleast saw one if the vessels gathering the kingsoul

She says one like you was awaited

[foggy stratus]

She could have just been waiting and hoping a new Vessel eventually would arrive to unfuck shit up.

[hearty forge]

Also the white lady literally says that the knight is free of any blemishes and could contain the radiemce

[foggy stratus]

Again, WL just be talking to hear her own voice sometimes.

[foggy stratus]

And then later says she can't sense anything about TK.

[random harbor]

White Lady - Reacting to Charms - Listening after acquiring Void Heart

That pulsing emptiness... Truly, it has been transformed by the revelations it found.
Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it.
The fate of our Kingdom, our Hallownest... that future belongs to you now.

@lexmolten used /npcs quest name: White Lady category: Reacting to Charms dialogue: Listening after acquiring Void Heart

[hearty forge]

When

[foggy stratus]

"Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it."

[hearty forge]

She says she can't sense the Knights emotions

[foggy stratus]

She says she can't sense if TK feels anything.

[hearty forge]

Though she seems pretty sure that the void heart changed it

[foggy stratus]

You feel more than just emotions.

And why would she only not be able to sense strictly emotions?

[hearty forge]

Fair

[twin dragon]

Likely because its all mashed with the void

but the knight always had its mind

[hearty forge]

Though she might just not be able to sense anything inside void

Maybe changes to the vessel itself

Such as a will

[foggy stratus]

Which means she wouldn't be able to sense any blemishes in TK.

[hearty forge]

Aare the blemishes part of the void tho

Tk Is one of her children

The void only hollowed it out

Tk can contain soul in its shell

[twin dragon]

not in its shell what

they wanted tk for its mind

since it was supposedly hollowed out by the void

but it wasnt entirely

[hearty forge]

?

Does the knight not hold soul in its shell

[twin dragon]

every bug does

[hearty forge]

Yeah

So the soul is part of the vessel

Not the void

So I'd think their will/mind is also part of the vessel

[twin dragon]

The void is also part of it

But the mind is ofc not the void's

[foggy stratus]

The shell only serves as a suit for the Shade, which is the main part of the Vessel, which is made of Void.

[hearty forge]

I do?

Pain ig

[foggy stratus]

Said Shade is Void that got the mind of the unborn child imprinted onto it, turing it into the Shade and creating the Vessel.

[twin dragon]

actually yeah that's the explanation

i think

[sturdy arrow]

So she was assuming when she said the Knight was free of blemishes.

[foggy stratus]

Or just lying. Either way, yeah.

[hearty forge]

Why would she lie

[foggy stratus]

She wants TK to fix Hallownest.

[sturdy arrow]

If the Knight replaces the Hollow Knight, at worst, the infection remains the same.

So there's no harm in hoping the Knight is hollow.

[foggy stratus]

If you want someone to do something you wouldn't tell them that they physically cant do it.

[hearty forge]

She also immediately gives it the half of the kingsoul

[twin dragon]

what else she's gonna do w it

[hearty forge]

Which is probably one of a kind given you kill the pale king in the wp dream

[foggy stratus]

Cry while looking at it, fucking I dunno.

[foggy stratus]

You dont kill him.

And its not a Dream.

[hearty forge]

Assuming she wants the best for the kingdom she wouldn't just give it to one vessel amoung millions

[twin dragon]

brother

if that vessel could reach her

that is significant

[hearty forge]

Especially if the Cycle just repeats

[foggy stratus]

One among millions of Vessels is the only one who could get to her.

[hearty forge]

By them becoming new hks

What good is it without the other half. When you have the other half she tells you to get void heart and beat rad.

[foggy stratus]

She just suggests visiting the Abyss i believe.

[hearty forge]

Yes, why though

[foggy stratus]

I don't know, she's fucking weird.

[hearty forge]

If she didn't know something would happen

Literally anything with a different outcome

[exotic pendant]

hornet you're taking a huge gamble here

[hearty forge]

?

[echo vapor]

she probably want the Knight to visit their birthplace to find an answer of some sort to The Radiance i think. Also the charm created from their doings will definitely have a connection with the birthplace in her eyes

[foggy stratus]

If she knew Void Heart could be obtained she would probably suggest "Hey go find the other half of this then go fown to the Abyss and try to find someone to come to terms with your traumatic birth" instead of "Hey you could replace THK"

[sturdy arrow]

White Lady doesn't know about Void Heart.

Not until the Knight gets it.

[sturdy arrow]

Why would an answer for the Radiance be in the abyss of her enemy?

[echo vapor]

she knew how powerful the void could be and the Knight's origin might help them utilize the void

at that was proven true

[hearty forge]

Why only after getting both halves tho

[sturdy arrow]

I thought you meant information involving Radiance.

[hearty forge]

Is it just that miraculous

To get both

[foggy stratus]

Given the other one is sealed behind a neigh unbreaklabe seal, yeah.

[hearty forge]

Why not only after the knight gets to her

[echo vapor]

i meant The Infection and the vicious cycle in overall, she probably knew just a vessel will end up exactly like THK

[sturdy arrow]

White Lady suggests the Knight goes to the Abyss to learn about its past. She doesn't expect them to unite the void.

[hearty forge]

Ok, but why only after getting both then

[echo vapor]

she told it with the intent of it finding a breakthrough

[foggy stratus]

Because the second one was locked behind a nearly unbreakable seal.

[sturdy arrow]

Because she is thinking about what is at the heart of the Kingsoul.

[foggy stratus]

For all she knew as well it could have been lost or destroyed.

[hearty forge]

Ok that makes sense

[echo vapor]

because it was incompleted

the first half deemed the charm useless

[foggy stratus]

At the heart of it is endless Soul.

[hearty forge]

Also the void heart

Or the void heart emerges upon witnessing the birthplace

[foggy stratus]

What? No. Void Heart wasn't in Kingsoul. Kingsoul transmutes into Void Heart.

[hearty forge]

How does it transmute

[echo vapor]

dreamnail into the memory of their birth

[hearty forge]

It splits in half

[sturdy arrow]

Void combines with soul whenever it can.

[foggy stratus]

TK's Void sorta consumes it to make it.

[hearty forge]

Yeah I know that obviously

[foggy stratus]

Consumes*

[echo vapor]

thats the better explaination

[hearty forge]

It clearly splits in the cutscene

It could do both tho?

It transmuted from the inside out then splits

[foggy stratus]

It splits then transforms. If it weren't fractured to begin with, it likely wouldn't split.

[hearty forge]

But the outside kinngsoul seems to be lost if I'm remembering right

[cinder storm]

every kingdom in hk has its own snail shamans?

[exotic pendant]

sounds a bit far fetched

[echo vapor]

might be, favorable conditions assumed

[exotic pendant]

well lets say not anymore

they dead now

[hearty forge]

Depends

Unlikely?

[paper mantle]

What are the pale beings?

Is because the color?

Is a status?

[foggy stratus]

Seemingly a link to Soul magic, color and glow.

[lone silo]

loreically lace is hornets aunt

[foggy stratus]

Technically.

Very big technically.

[whole holly]

i hope we will see some kind of faction that deals with essence like moths and godseekers, grimm troupe and to extent mosskin did, than yet another soul wielding tribe

[foggy stratus]

We only really see like two "tribes" that wield soul. Well, maybe you could count the Weavers as a third.

[foggy stratus]

Shamans and Soul Sanctum + maybe Weaver.

[whole holly]

i count Weavers, in fact, even Burning Bug magic is just silk/soul burning, pretty much everything in Citadel is silk

[foggy stratus]

I dont count Burning Bugs because the Wisps seem to be a pseudo-independent group of entities that dont necessarily seem to require Silk to burn. I also don't count Whiteward/Citadel because they dont really wield it, they just use it in fairly crude methods compared to other groups.

[whole holly]

silk it type of soul, Pale Beings + Weavers + Shamans + Soul Sanctum + Citadel(because they used it even in attacks). with Silksong it just got repetitive

[foggy stratus]

I never said Silk wasnt a type of Soul.

[whole holly]

even if you don't count them, they are still silk/soul related, i agree with that they are pseudo-independent group, which to we extent we know about wisp they are silk/soul related

[whole holly]

i am aware, i never made such allegation against you, i just clarified since you didn't count silk-wielders are soul-wielders.

[lone silo]

but they are

[past spoke]

Hollow Knight: Silksoul

[foggy stratus]

I label them as being more distinct since Silk is different than Soul despite being derived from it. They serve different purposes and so I feel its somewhat warranted to try and have some at least minor level of distinction.

[foggy stratus]

There isnt any blood relation since GMS isnt actually the Weavers' mother.

[whole holly]

they don't have to even deal with essence, but magical power in silksong being variations/applications of soul and void

[foggy stratus]

The only time Silk is linked with the Wisps is via the Wispfire Lantern. While yes, Silk can undoubtedly be used as a fuel for it, its not necessarily the only fuel for it and it's possible that the Wisps predate Silk in the surrounding regions.

[whole holly]

well, i just don't see it as that way, most people don't because silk is soul channeled through a thread, in my discussion, distinction adds nothing when i am discussing fundamental forces and you add level of distinction that's not necessary

[whole holly]

that's speculation, though, yes Wisp can theoretically be fueled by other substances but when i complain about lot of things being soul-derived at fundamental level, that speculation doesn't change much at all

[foggy stratus]

I try to keep a small level of separation between the two because primarily Silk and Soul just do different things. Yes, they can be used to preform similar acts such a Binding/Focusing and Rune Rage/PV's Focus, they shouldn't just get lumped in with like the Shamans and Sanctum Scholars. I separate them by having them be a smaller subsect of Soul users, like the difference between Pale Beings and general Higher Beings. All Silk users are Soul users but not all Soul users are Silk users. Hope this clears some stuff up.

[lone silo]

i dont think theres even blood in the first place

[whole holly]

i get your point, but it doesn't really apply to conversations that discuss forces on fundamental levels, thus making your minor subset categories redundant, "All Silk users are Soul users but not all Soul users are Silk users" proves my point when i am discussing Soul at large, Hope this clears some stuff up for you

although you do provide interesting points, i don't think you are hearing mine

[foggy stratus]

While I hear them, I do partly disagree with the sentiment that Soul magic is overused. Particularly with the Citadel since they hardly really use it for magic beyond life extension and some runes withing automatons, I believe. Really the only enemy that actually uses Silk in their attacks magically is the Chior Clapper, who only appears three times in one arena. Everyone else basically just uses it as a durable rope to whip their blade around with. And like, Soul is by far the most abundant source of magical energy and requires frankly the least innate skill or natural aptitude to use. Its basically the closest thing to mana HK has. Any other poeer source is either super dangerous to deal with(Void) or needs a degree of natural aptitude most bugs just seemingly lack(Essence) so while yes I understand your grevionce with Soul magic, it also feels a tad overblown to me.

[whole holly]

well, i understand why you disagree since you don't count silk users as soul users, yes i am aware that silk is somewhat different and easier to use without side effects, but problem lies in fact that fundamental forces essence soul and void, soul seems to dominate, there are lifeforms adapted to abyss that could use void, and there are Godseekers that gained natural aptitude to essence that lot of bugs lack, there is no reason why they can't introduce it more

[twin dragon]

500 text walls oh me god

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-translate-gif-12052961640477791272

[foggy stratus]

I dont think I ever claimed Silk users weren't Soul users, them just being a smaller subgroup akin to Pale Beings compared to general Higher Beings, but the issue with them introducing more Essence or Void forbid Void users is them having to come up with reasonable back stories for them. And we all know how TC writes lore these days

[foggy stratus]

Woe, curse of Arcana upon thee(Arcana is a scholar's deity)

[whole holly]

i am aware but you seen to insinuate them as subgroup and treat them as lot different than they actually are, i don't mind soul but it depends on how it is handled, as opposed to: "every problem in existence is caused and solved by soul, expect pale beings which must be consumed by void" narrative.

i like application of Soul Users combining Soul with Charge to create Volt attacks such as Volt Twister from Hollow Knight and Hornet from Silksong

[lofty tendon]

Don’t forget that the snail chamans and Groal btw can use Soul

[foggy stratus]

The Shamans more so wield it while Groal just uses it. The difference being that the Shamans can control it with a good degree of control and intent, while Groal just coughs that shit out like an Abry's burger.

Same, in my opinion, when comparing the Weavers to the Citadel.

Or the Shamans to the Citadel.

Or really anyone but Groal to the Citadel.

Lowkey the Citadel are like the second most crude Soul users, just above Groal. I rank the Sanctum higher since they can teleport and launch homing projectiles whole sustaing an orbiting one(I think at least)

[twin dragon]

The citadel were trained in weaver arts

[sinful nimbus]

Scholars are worse

[twin dragon]

who could do some pretty cool shit

[sinful nimbus]

They deformed their bodies heavily using soul

[foggy stratus]

Said arts are just flinging their pin around with Silk.

And whatever the Chior Clappers are doing.

[twin dragon]

Those are silk runes which do take a fair amount of skill to cast

and yk

manipulating silk to like

throw your wep super far

and stuff

is some good degree of skill

[foggy stratus]

While yes the Runes likely do require a large amount of skill, in literally all but one entry Hornet shit talks their use of Silk.

Choir Clappers have no finesse, Grand Reeds are rather crude and literally the only time she doesn't damn near insult them is to the Choristor, who she just says possesses above average use of Silk compared to average bugs.

[twin dragon]

Brother

they're fairly crude compared to her usage which yk fair

but they don't bloat themselves with soul and do bs with it like the soul sanctum did

[foggy stratus]

Just because it had side effects doesnt mean they were unskilled. They could all fly, teleport, summon and sustain homing projectiles and, in Soul Master's case, make use of a whole ass Shaman Spell. Hell, they're journal description calls them highly intelligent and says with said arcane knowledge are able to twist soul into "vicious spells" as well as them making an entire charm solely designed to make it less costly to use their magic, something the Citadel never could achieve. Only being able to increase Silk capacity.

[twin dragon]

I mean first sinner can tp aswell

[foggy stratus]

Shes dead as hell.

[twin dragon]

Using a shaman spell isn't that impressive considering its stolen

but she could do that

[foggy stratus]

And she was a Weaver who is like the most skilled Silk users we've seen actually use Silk, bar Hornet.

Who herself is half Weaver.

[twin dragon]

Hornet is much more skilled due to the fact that soul is much more available

and it is implied most weavers were similarly skilled aswell

[twin dragon]

Increasing capacity and also using it to prolonge their lives without bloating to shit is impressive

They're definitely good soul users considering the average population but the citadel did so much more

[foggy stratus]

Inherently Silk just has less negative side effects because, to a degree, its a more focused and condensed form of Soul. Its like a copper wire compared to a bolt of lightening. And the Sanctum were also trying to reach immortality with Soul, they just didnt have the bonuses of Government funding and basically a form of Soul better suited to it.

And the life extension of the Citadel with Silk is iirc just shoving it into the bugs shell.

And it still has a fatality rate that shouldn't just be skimmed over.

Look at the Unraveled arena and the spot you get the Surgenon's Key.

[twin dragon]

Yeah but those fatalities got them somewhere

whereas soul sanctum had like

thousands of carcasses

and they still remained somewhat primitive

[foggy stratus]

Of different bugs than their own.

You could say all those fatalities also got them somewhere.

Citadel glaze smh.

Shit my phoens on 1%

[midnight reef]

And explicitly old, it's not like the Weavers don't have a way to teleport also

Idk what we're arguing though

[twin dragon]

long live the democratic bug's republic of pharloom

[lofty tendon]

shut your mouthes I’m trying to work

[foggy stratus]

Citadel Silk usage compared to Sanctum Soul usage.

[foggy stratus]

[twin dragon]

They didn't rlly need those corpses to extract soul they actually experimented on them and got somewhere

[midnight reef]

But they did extract soul from those corpses

[twin dragon]

The citadel didnt

[midnight reef]

I'm pretty sure that's what was implied by the massive mounds of corpses

[twin dragon]

they got inf silk from gms

[midnight reef]

Well

They did, and do

[twin dragon]

They recycled silk sure

[spark valve]

the corpses are bugs that rejected the immortality surgeries

[twin dragon]

"Rejected"

[midnight reef]

Whiteward burns corpses to extract silk, and people here will argue that GMS doesn't have infinite silk for... reasons

[spark valve]

that's not silk that originated from them it's waste that's left in the system

[twin dragon]

To them it was rlly infinite

And the burnt corpses was just recycling silk that was originally injected for experimental purposes

[midnight reef]

Despite the Silkhearts having clear ties to GMS :3

Like

Fun fact

The background in the Silkheart scenes?

[twin dragon]

its the cradle yeah

[midnight reef]

...GMS' Cocoon

[twin dragon]

why does gms speak in plural doe

[midnight reef]

Literally

Same assets

[twin dragon]

lwk what interests me most is why gms speaks in plural

[midnight reef]

Where?

I only vaugly remember the Silkheart needolin text

[twin dragon]

in uh

any silk heart dialogue

[next sable]

Royal we is a thing

[twin dragon]

I guess

[whole holly]

you still have to consider that Mistakes and Follies factor in Soul Sanctum average, bringing it down

[fading shard]

wasn't the entire point of the soul sanctum to showcase how much it took for mere mortals to use soul

there's even a whole thing talking about guess what focus, and the snail shamans who do use soul are said to have a spiral focus

[whole holly]

well, yes, did you read the discussion?

[fading shard]

No I just got here

[whole holly]

well, i have to go, bye abhiker

[fading shard]

man

sorry

[cinder storm]

i really wonder how the pinstress of bilewater was like

do we got any info of them or na

even the snail shaman from the same place

[fading shard]

you know

I do still appreciate how much of a different tragedy hollow knight and silksong tell

one focuses on the tragedy of a great kingdom collapsing, the other on beautiful life and lands being brought to ruin by tyranny

I know this is well discussed by now but I still got to just state how much I appreciate team cherries themes

[whole holly]

honestly i agree with snail shamans, seeker shaman shouldn't have tried alliance with Stilkin, Pinstress was way better ideal, literally anything else is

[whole holly]

yea, i think they merged societal and family hierarchies well

[limpid summit]

Stilkin didn’t even have anything to offer for real

They didn’t have the firepower before Groal ate seeker

[whole holly]

How are you consistently correct?

[foggy stratus]

And yet they can still appear from the fucking Aether which seems to be some degree of teleportation. Something none of the Choir can.

[whole holly]

i think they are just hidden in background, teleportation isn't even that powerful, palestag that you like to downplay can do it

[foggy stratus]

It’s a fairly rare ability from what we’ve seen, with mostly either powerful beings or essence creatures having, likely with some outliers I cant think of.

[whole holly]

sure but follies can fly and appear from hidden parts, also mistakes are rising from ground for most of time

[foggy stratus]

Soul Warrior can just summon them.

[whole holly]

how do you know they aren't just being called like trained attack dogs?

also this argument is pretty meaningless, none of Soul Sanctum is sophisticated enough to be using Runes

they are have severe side effects

[limpid summit]

I try man I try

Except MMHB

[foggy stratus]

Why do you all think that side effects means they’re all unskilled or something? And so what if they can’t do runes, something that is unique to Silk and they would have little to no knowledge on. Thats like pointing out how the Choir members need wings to fly or can’t shoot orbs of Soul and seemingly infection.

There can be pretty nasty side effects to Silk abuse. cough cough death cough cough the Haunting.

[whole holly]

i don't know if it disagree with that anymore, considering how vague Higher Beings in general are, there is no real downside or inconsistency in considering Mister Mushroom higher being

[limpid summit]

I think the shamans just thought stilkins would be easy then they would have gone to the ants the verdanians Nyleth

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s my rationale
At the same time I don’t want to invite calling randoms HBs though so I’m trying to find a more concrete line of thought

But I still believe it

[midnight reef]

I thought it was "our" silk, as it, Hornet and GMS'

[limpid summit]

“One to wish our waking”

That’s just how she talks

[whole holly]

Pure Vessel can create runes too, also their side effects seem to resemble loss of cognitive and bodily function at least in follies and mistakes

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the mistakes manifest like that

They’re like sludge

Probably pour out from a wall or something

[foggy stratus]

PV would have actually gotten to see and be trained in how to adapt them into Soul. Its like comparing the tactics of Mike Tyson to a High School level boxer.

[whole holly]

either way Citadel shows more proficiency using runes than Soul Sanctum does

[foggy stratus]

Yeah because they actually got to see how runes work. That's like comparing someone who has played ULTRAKILL to someone who hasn't than saying the one who has is better at that specific game. No shit they are!

[whole holly]

you could argue teleportation, but i would say runes take more skill, Soul Sanctum needed Charms and Crests to Focus soul and use it

[whole holly]

i mean they could have developed it if they were as good as Citadel in raw talent, Choir Clapper's Runes are unique to Citadel and not seen in any predecessors like Weavers

[foggy stratus]

They were trying to find immortality and a way to stave off infection. And Hornet says that the Choir Clappers lack any finesse.

[blissful harbor]

the citadel doesn’t have talent
hornet points that out

[whole holly]

i am saying in relative sense, at least in relation to soul sanctum

[foggy stratus]

The only time she doesnt actively insult a Silk user in the Citadel on their use of Silk is the Chorister, who she says is just above average.

[whole holly]

so was Citadel? they were trying to find immortality and a way to stave off influence of pale being

[whole holly]

that doesn't mean they are below soul sanctum in any way, it just means that compared to her they are below in skill

[twin dragon]

The citadel had weaver arts which is a big start

[blissful harbor]

different urgencies really, the choir was finding just a cure for death in general, while the sanctum’s search for immortality was fueled, in part, by Rads own influence implanting the thought in their head
to try and find a (flawed) cure for the infection

[foggy stratus]

Also the only reason thw Citadel even has runes is because of the Weavers, aka the premier Silk users bar maybe GMS herself.

[whole holly]

also i assume Soul Sanctum is still less skilled and talented than Citadel, regardless of what

[whole holly]

Soul Sanctum had Shaman Spells which is also a big start

[foggy stratus]

One member had a shaman spell.

[whole holly]

so, Citadel has runes that aren't found in any weavers

[foggy stratus]

Like what.

[whole holly]

ones Choir Clapper uses

[blissful harbor]

wrapping silk around your mallet and hitting the ground is not some crazy rune skill

hornet literally tells us this

[foggy stratus]

Looks like a knock off rune rage and Hornet outright says its crude snd wasteful.

[whole holly]

again, compared to soul sanctum it is skill, regardless of what hornet says

[blissful harbor]

same as scholars teleporting

it’s a basic skill

nothing special

if anything the scholars show less waste in their use of soul compared to the use of silk

[whole holly]

well, yes but Mistakes and Follies still bring down Soul Sanctum average

[blissful harbor]

it deformed them worse sure

[blissful harbor]

they melted from overuse, it’s not like they were bad with it

[foggy stratus]

My guy exactly three Choir bugs in all get to use Silk in their attacks, one of which seems relegated to the High Halls. All you have to go on to say they're more skilled is that they have runes and lack side effects, which I will say that lacking side effects is not a sign of greater skill.

[whole holly]

misuse, which could be consuming it

[blissful harbor]

is it really only 3

[whole holly]

i assume that Citadel is investing into their Skill/Spell usage much less than Soul Sanctum bugs were, for them to be roughly equal level is pretty darning

[foggy stratus]

Chorister, Grand Reed, Choir Clapper.

[blissful harbor]

i feel like that’s wrong
the claw maidens, clappers, the one that hits you with spaghetti
and ig the one that commands the flies
and grand reeds

[foggy stratus]

What do you mean spaghetti? The surgeons?

[blissful harbor]

no it kinda looks like a grand reed but tiny

[foggy stratus]

The regular Reed?

[blissful harbor]

oh it’s called a chorister
you got it lmao

[foggy stratus]

My brother in Void...

[blissful harbor]

listen bro all the names look the same in my defense

anyways yes, the claw maidens and the cog fly rip off guys also technically use silk

[whole holly]

this one has skills as well as well as Unravelled manipulating spears

[foggy stratus]

Clawmaidens are early automatons and maybe prototypes for later Cogwork Bugs and no where can I find mention of Silk in the Maestro entry.

[blissful harbor]

that’s not the same as the choir using silk

thata a dead body being controlled

[foggy stratus]

My guy those are corpses. Discarded corpses animated by silk.

[whole holly]

aren't big part of citadel?

[foggy stratus]

Not even like the way other Choir bugs are.

[blissful harbor]

a bit of inference from how we know how regular cogworks work

[whole holly]

i mean same could apply to fact that most soul sanctum bugs are infected and mostly moving because of it

[mossy basin]

Gang why does grandmother silk want to protect lace?? Like didn’t lace just betray her?

[blissful harbor]

either its commanding the silk or commanding silkflies, either way

it’s silk control

[blissful harbor]

not really the same

scholars were using soul before being infected, dregs are only able to use silk in thst way because of being haunted and left in a giant silk pit

[whole holly]

i don't get why being controlled by infection and being controlled by haunting, regardless of difference technically being alive because of it makes

[blissful harbor]

the scholars didnt get their powers from soaking in a soul oit while dead

[blissful harbor]

the difference is dregs didnt have the ability in the first place

it’s the result of their death and the haunting together

[whole holly]

i mean we don't see scholars before infection, and their current power in infection of blast, Soul Master is exception because they received a head start because they got spell from shaman

[blissful harbor]

the haunting is silk based in the first place, it interacts with other silk

the infection isn’t a soul infection that can grant soul abilities

[foggy stratus]

The description says they twist soul into vicious spells.

[blissful harbor]

we are told they started to kidnap bugs off the streets for fuel
while possible they were infected
i doubt it
PK was also said to oppose everything the sanctum did
why not jst destroy the place or shut it all down if everything was infected

[whole holly]

Unravelled Hunter's Journal says : Tormented will of countless husks made manifest in a pit of Silk dregs. it's not just haunting that's a factor, it is also their will

[twin dragon]

They didnt really know what to do with them though

[blissful harbor]

what does that have to do with my argument

how does that change anything

id like to kkow

[whole holly]

yea, raw technique development is something citadel excels in

[whole holly]

you acted like they are just corpses and haunting and nothing more, then that's simply not case,

[twin dragon]

no they already had developed soul tech

[blissful harbor]

they got blueprints from weavers

[twin dragon]

from the weavers

[blissful harbor]

ofc there is still the bug in there this is hollow knight
the wills of things longer everywhere

again idk how this changes my argument

[whole holly]

Citadel made Reserve Bind, Spool Extender, that's not weaver learning, you could argue spoor extender maybe but still, they differ from mechanism

[twin dragon]

Yeah but their start was just

[whole holly]

because of the fact that it is citadel's skill if whiteward bug's will indeed plays a part in usage of skill, something you discounted

[twin dragon]

so much more advanced

[pseudo narwhal]

she loved Lace I guess
as everyone of her children (in somewhat twisted way)

[whole holly]

i guess, in a sense, yea but their unique learnings still surpass soul sanctums because they only developed one charm, citadel developed two blue tools

[mossy basin]

I sees

[whole holly]

I have question: why are vessels purity taken literally

[whole holly]

Purity is not metaphysical concept, babies are considered pure in real life too because they can’t commit a sin and can’t be corrupted, which is what teams cherry most likely based it off of

[whole holly]

Pure being likely wouldn’t have been corrupted and infected, because vessels have stunted development, especially mentally and their mind’s capacity

[craggy smelt]

I think people's first impulse is for a literal reading in most things, unless it's really obvious that it's not meant to be taken that way
I don't know that it's super obvious at first glance in the Birthplace Memory
also Radiance's powers work by manipulating a being's mental state, so it would follow that a being with literally no mental state couldn't be manipulated
even if that's almost certainly not what PK was actually going for

[paper mantle]

Hey, guys, what is the topic?

[craggy smelt]

everyone's favorite

[paper mantle]

?

[craggy smelt]

vessel purity

[paper mantle]

Ah, yes, the chosen vessel

[paper mantle]

And what is the topic of this?

[whole holly]

That’s insightful

But I still think that after second glance it is kind of apparent

[whole holly]

What do you think?

[paper mantle]

-_-

[midnight reef]

whats odd is that in the 2019 trailer you see the Surgeon bugs in the Choral Chambers
It could've just been a 2019 trailer moment (spamming enemies from other places in a finished one for reasons™)

Or that they werent planned to be the surgeon bugs

yeah, reused, I guess

"Song Pilgrim 02"

[pseudo narwhal]

I guess the goal here was to create a creature that doesn't have dreams and desires of their own, and only follows orders/single purpose that was ingrained in them during their creation?
Also I not sure about implying vessels being a "forever children" (if I understand you correctly)
Because at least for me it doesn't feel true for PV (considering how fight with them is going)

[whole holly]

I think PV was grown artificially to be strong and mind is indeed still stunted

[pseudo narwhal]

It's not about being strong, it's about being arrogant aura farmer :D

[narrow horizon]

guys be warned a wild man is coming

[white copper]

Pfft

[pseudo narwhal]

Joking a little bit
But PV is fighting like someone who have never known defeat, who doesn't consider defeat is ever possible, who for sure doesn't consider YOU as an worthy opponent and who eager to show their disrespect :)

[white copper]

Pv technically dosent have the mind to even think that since its only thoughts are "i love my dad and his kingdom" and "do not ever think about loving my dad and his kingdom"

So, essentially just "i love my dad" and massive amounts of valid imposter syndrome (is it imposter syndrome if you KNOW your not what you pretend to be?)

[lone folio]

What about PV shows that?

I mean he does destroy his armour at the start of the battle which is a bit disrespectful

[pseudo narwhal]

1. The way they starts the fight :) Like not only destroying armor or whatever but doing it with their BACK to you (so you are that much not a threat)
2. Holding the sword in fake-reverse-grip (they actually switch to the normal grip when doing the attack). That sorta variation of an actual feint technique when you remove your blade to the side to show the "fake" opening and hide your real reach, but you should be hella confident in your skills to do such type of sh and in such a manner
3. General vibes of the fight? Idk, like Lace fights (the first two) feel like it's sorta a playful sparring, Hornet fights are like fair duels (she doesn't have a boss scream, she just doing short "garama" that mimicking the actual "warrior salute" that considered a good manners in competitive fencing)
   PV is here to murder you

[pseudo narwhal]

maybe it's also like "I'm a chosen hero to save everyone"

[civic elm]

I have bern arguing for nearly an hour in sk discussion, is there any proof thst silksong happens long after hk

[white copper]

We have a bit of lore in SS that suggests a bit of time has past since HK

[pseudo narwhal]

I guess it's left intentionally unclear
(Also idk why are we discussing vessels and PV in sk-lore lol)

[white copper]

Its an unspecified amount of time

But its after since the knights in the void

A few journal entries and bits of dialog suggest a decent bit of time has past, possibly between decades and centuries

[civic elm]

Years decades and centuries are human time not bug time

[pseudo narwhal]

oh it's interesting could you cite some?

[white copper]

Are you gonna argue semantics or just accept that time has passed?

[civic elm]

I want to see the entries

[white copper]

And i have now unwittingly signed up to dig through the journals

Damn

[pseudo narwhal]

well you don't have to :)

[white copper]

I gotta leave for work in 10 minutes but ill start digging through dialog and journal entries when ive got time

[pseudo narwhal]

I just hoped that probably you just remembered where exactly

[white copper]

No because i distinctly remember something making it clear time had passed

[pseudo narwhal]

I guess there was smth about the hive

[white copper]

Like off the top of my head hornet talks about outliving multiple mates, but that could have happened before the events of HK since a long time passes between dead void babies and THE dead void baby returning

[civic elm]

The only thing I can think off is hornet not remembering herra's mask

[civic elm]

Which would have been because of the journey from hallow nest to pharloom

[white copper]

Thats a big one, hornet seems to have a good ass memory, and she saw her moms mask when she died

So id say at least a handful of bug lifetimes between the end of HK and her kidnapping

[civic elm]

And hermask is everywhere in hallownest

I think the journey was a long one from hallownest to pharloom

[white copper]

Well she cant remember herras face, the face under her mask i think she says

[pseudo narwhal]

But Herrah just dissapear when you kill her in dreams? (turns to dust or smth)
There is no corpse

[white copper]

Idk i haven't been through red memory in a bit

[civic elm]

She says boh

Both

[cunning cradle]

there was a corpse before you killed her tho?

[white copper]

So then yeah a decent amount of time has passed for hornet to lose the memory of her mothers face

[white copper]

All dreamer corpses vanish upon their deaths

[civic elm]

I think it is eother the journey from hallow nest to pharloom, or the effects of the cage as hornet becomes bolder towards act3

[white copper]

Hornet is waiting by herra to see her mother one final time before her corpse is gone

[pseudo narwhal]

I thought, she is talking about her real face, not the dreamer mask

[white copper]

The journey is also an unspecified amount of time

[cunning cradle]

so you’re assuming that there’s some mind erasure thing going on instead of the obvious conclusion

[white copper]

Hallownest is unaware of pharlooms existence, but pharloom has to be older than Hallownest

[cunning cradle]

not necessarily

[white copper]

Well i mean id assume the rune cage has an effect on ones mind seeing as hornet loses the ability to clawline and threadstorm between the games

[civic elm]

No, it is stated that she was weak for prelonged amount of time

[civic elm]

She looses nearly the entire hunter's crest

She confirms that in dialogue

[cunning cradle]

well hornet also lost the ability to dash 😭 it doesn’t mean that she forgot how to, she was just weakened

[civic elm]

Forgot with who

[white copper]

Like she knew clawline, silkspear, and threadstorm in hallownest, so the rune cage definitely took or removed the memories of her abilities

[civic elm]

No she forgot how to

We dont re unlock the entire hunter crest

[cunning cradle]

how does someone forget how to run

that’s impossible to assume

[civic elm]

She isnt running normally

[white copper]

Its not run, its to glide upon silk

Swift step isnt a sprint shes basically ice skating on silk on her feet

[civic elm]

Wait I will get the text about the runecages

[white copper]

Yeah they definitely do something that massively weakens weavers

[cunning cradle]

No, it says as IF you’re gliding upon silk

[white copper]

But we also have no clue how far hallownest is from pharloom

[civic elm]

Nope it says it extends more than the natural

Sprinting is walking

As seen from sprintmaste in hollowknight

[white copper]

Yeah shes using her silk to enhance her sprint

[cunning cradle]

yeah its a special weaver technique but it’s still just running 😭

[civic elm]

It is confirmed she got weakened because of the cage

[civic elm]

It is not

[white copper]

Actually we never see her run in HK

We see her clawline, silkspear, and thread storm as attacks

[pseudo narwhal]

Like
Herrah has another face before she became a dreamer (and which one Hornet is not remembering bc it indeed was a centuries ago and she was little)

...But to recall these words, in time so far... Will you even remember me, child? Could you?...
...A mother... before the mask... before I lay forever in duty...

But hk events happen long after this moment

[civic elm]

I think it is another only oharloom techniqur

[white copper]

(And she throws crappy sting shards)

Yeah alot of hornets strength is that she finds weaver corpses and can bind their memories and skills to her shell

[civic elm]

Hmm, I thought she wastalking about herra's dream mask

[white copper]

Yknow for "having less focus on the mystical side" silksong has hornet do alot of magic shit

Like its more physical tools and all but hornet just does alot of magic shit

[civic elm]

Btw you remember how strong hornet sentinal was. How different her hunter crest was

[white copper]

Yeah she had 2 silk skills

And 1 red tool

[pseudo narwhal]

In this memory she is remembering her mother before she became a dreamer (obviously)

[civic elm]

She had adino

[white copper]

I wanna say her dive is just the hunter pogo

[cunning cradle]

Sure but it doesn’t seem like she just FORGOT about all of these techniques? How would she forget how to throw her spear? She even says in the beginning that she’s severely weakened.. If anything her silk has just been damaged

[white copper]

But extended

[white copper]

Silk contains memories

[civic elm]

Her sounds are more controlled by th crest rather than the actions

[white copper]

Thats how she gets skills off weaver corpses

She binds their silk and memories to herself, gaining that weavers skill

[civic elm]

Beastcrest hornet

[cunning cradle]

Well then was she just not incorporating silk into her moves in HK? If she was trained by vespa then it makes sense

[white copper]

I mean she probably wasnt using silk the same way

[civic elm]

She had super jump

[white copper]

Since shes the last weaver in hallownest

[blissful harbor]

thread storm was likely taught to her by the weavers, as for silk spear
game logic, she doesn’t infuse it with runes in HK but ig you could say it just wasn’t thought of at the time

she never ran in the first game so nothing to forget there

[civic elm]

Their are other weavers in hallownest

She isnt the last

[white copper]

Right the ones looking at us in weavenest

[civic elm]

We see one as the knight

[white copper]

I forgot about that one

[blissful harbor]

that weaver is dead
TC forgot about it too dw

[white copper]

Cuz its literally like 3 seconds

[cunning cradle]

it’s kinda inferred that the weavers left before she started training with vespa

[civic elm]

Not eveyone

[white copper]

Left or died

[civic elm]

If the weavers left who controled the spider puppets to kidnap the knight in deepnest

If all

[white copper]

Which, are all the other weavers dead from being hunted down by the citadel in SS or are some still missing

[cunning cradle]

that’s the mystery isn’t it 😭
but there is at least one you are right

[white copper]

Hornet is the most weaver we see confirmation of capture from the room of rune cages

The others are quarter or eighth part weaver

[cunning cradle]

It seems like most of them have been

[white copper]

So weavers definitely found ways to have kids

So hornet is likely the most dangerous target for capturing

[cunning cradle]

yeah but might do a lot of harm to their body

[civic elm]

But they had weaver masks

[white copper]

Oh they were definitely weaver

[civic elm]

They wherent 8th or tho

They where direct weavers

[white copper]

Just less pureblooded weaver from being descendents

No no theres rune cages in the cradle

[cunning cradle]

Which is why it’s funny that they were arguing that Hornet wasn’t created to fight GMS 😭
That’s the entire point of ending at act 2, she fulfilled the weavers wish

[white copper]

Weaver in 8th part, last of their line, frail with age

[cunning cradle]

most of the direct weavers were probably hunted down before silksong, she’d probably prioritize them over the mixed blooded ones

[civic elm]

Nope, they where being hunted by distance

The weaver cages in the cradle

[white copper]

We dont see the commandments on those cages

[civic elm]

Oh right

[white copper]

Could be other hunted part weaver cages

Or cages for the weavers that failed to escape the citadel

[spark valve]

all the weaverspawn are the last of their lines and the weavers in pharloom died out of natural causes there probably aren't any full weavers left other than widow whose silk was bound

[white copper]

I dont think weavers CAN die of natural causes

[civic elm]

No cant be

[white copper]

Silk extends a bugs lifespan, and weavers make silk themselves

[cunning cradle]

even more of a reason to believe that silksong is long after HK lol

[white copper]

So similar to pale beings weavers are pseudo immortal, and only die if killed

[civic elm]

Shakra says they are ancient and horbet can bind their silk so not gms

[white copper]

Horbet

[blissful harbor]

it definitely is

[civic elm]

No this is pharloom

[civic elm]

It is not confirmed

[blissful harbor]

it’s implied

[civic elm]

Implied after but not how long

[cunning cradle]

does this only apply to natural weavers tho? Because a mixed one is frail and at the end of her life.

[white copper]

Team cherry probably wont give an exact time frame

[blissful harbor]

hornet says she’s witnessed similar shit to lifeblood wormways in hallownest
that would be a time thing, certainly a decent period of time has passed

ofc theres no exact “it was z years ago”

[white copper]

That weaver is 1/8th weaver

[cunning cradle]

sure but if she’s weaver she can still produce silk, no?

[white copper]

The age is probably the non weaver of them

[civic elm]

Not in hallownest but that she sa them, quirell comic confirms she used to roam outside hallow nest

[white copper]

Maybe not enough to fight the effects of age

[civic elm]

Outside as in the road to dirtmouse

[white copper]

Hornets a unique case being half weaver half pale being

[sinful nimbus]

we are NOT using this as evidence 😭

[civic elm]

Depends on the crest

[spark valve]

it was in hallownest that she claims to have seen that stuff she says it was in her home caves

[blissful harbor]

In my home caves, when once this substance was allowed to flourish, I saw similar aberrations. This is wonder tainted strong with revulsion.

in my home caves bro

[cunning cradle]

not everyone can use crests bro

[civic elm]

Everyonenhas a cret bro

[white copper]

Everyone has a crest

[civic elm]

They cant change it

[blissful harbor]

how is that not evidence

lifeblood wouldn’t have suddenly exploded in a week after the events of hk

[white copper]

Not everyone can bind NEW crests

[cunning cradle]

yeah but there were already places filled with lifeblood

[white copper]

Hornet can cuz magic bullshittery

[sinful nimbus]

lifeblood is lifeblood

[blissful harbor]

not enough for plasmified shit

[civic elm]

It wasnt allowed to flourish in hollow knight she is talking about johny

[cunning cradle]

yeah but crests are a gameplay mechanic that the lore tries to justify. It’s easier to just say that they aren’t biologically capable.

[civic elm]

It was a taboo in hollow knight

[blissful harbor]

exactly
after enough time has passed it has flourished, with no one to keep it at bay

[spark valve]

repose has way more than wormways did esp pre act 3 there's some retconning goin on

[blissful harbor]

that’s the whole point

[civic elm]

It was never alloed to flourish

[sinful nimbus]

yes it was bro

[civic elm]

It flourished in johneys area and in abys

[blissful harbor]

are you reading what i’m saying

[civic elm]

I think she ment johny

Johny blessing

[cunning cradle]

there were places filled with lifeblood during the knights trek

[sinful nimbus]

that is in hallownest

[cunning cradle]

doesn’t really prove anything

[civic elm]

Nope only the edges of hallownest which was a time sgo

Lifeblood was in a couple of location which are

[cunning cradle]

yeah… during the Knight’s journey

[civic elm]

Abyss, johney area ,kingpass, near mantis lords

[civic elm]

Go to johney and look their

Jony

[cunning cradle]

joni

[sinful nimbus]

she could be talking about joni's she could be talking about hallownest in the past/future it doesn't really matter

[civic elm]

So it doesnt confirm time

She could be talking about many things

[cunning cradle]

i agree with this the most.. TC definitely planned to have lifeblood work like this, they just didn’t implement it in HK

[sinful nimbus]

yea

[civic elm]

It already does go to the abyss

You need like 15 plasma hearts with joni

[cunning cradle]

dude what are you even saying 😭

[civic elm]

Go to the abyss room with plasmium

[cunning cradle]

i am AGREEING with you

you don’t need to convince me about lifeblood

[civic elm]

I am saying it was already like in silksong

It even infested the mind of godseeker

Scary stuff

[cunning cradle]

we always knew that it was dangerous, but didn’t get to see it like it was in the wormways

[tawdry flare]

Why didn’t they do it in the Refresh update then huh

[cunning cradle]

THATS the retcon

[cunning cradle]

why wouldn’t they save it for silksong? it’s a pretty major idea, blowing it on a low effort dlc would be silly

a lot of the HK dlc is small anyways

[tawdry flare]

I’ll let you know adding wide screen support is not low effort

[cunning cradle]

why are you acting purposefully dense

[civic elm]

The thing is, the people who are still alive/have a bit of concious left see lifeblood as a taboo

So it wouldnt spread

[cunning cradle]

what

[civic elm]

Unlike the plasmium doctor

[cunning cradle]

none of those people even populate where joni is tho

[civic elm]

The reason it is all over wormways is because of the scientist doctor bug

[cunning cradle]

or even the abyss

[cunning cradle]

yeah he planted it but it was already thriving near joni

[civic elm]

That is johny

[sinful nimbus]

lifeblood probably wasn't planned it was always portrayed in a serene and ethereal manner

[cunning cradle]

no it was

the idea of it being bad was always planned

[sinful nimbus]

why did they portray it like that then

just seems bizarre in light of silksong

[foggy fractal]

idk we're not TC we can't really say lmao

[civic elm]

Have you ever drunk that bright blue liquid, 'lifeblood'? It's a bit of a taboo, but it makes you feel much healthier doesn't it?
This charm seeps lifeblood and will certainly improve your constitution

[cunning cradle]

I mean it’s a positive thing for the knight, but others definitely paint it in a negative light. Could have been purposeful to make silksong hit much harder, or it could’ve been because of time restraints

[blissful harbor]

lifeblood has definitely always had interesting implications for health with how’s it’s described

[civic elm]

Nope

[sinful nimbus]

Ellina Hunter and Salubra all fw the stuff

[civic elm]

There was sterjotypes

[spark valve]

gee why would consuming something called 'lifeblood' be a bit of a taboo even if it doesn't actually cause harm

[sinful nimbus]

That's about all we got regarding it

[civic elm]

Salubra liked to use it

[cunning cradle]

the pale king banned it?

[civic elm]

Have you ever drunk that bright blue liquid, 'lifeblood'? It's a bit of a taboo, but it makes you feel much healthier doesn't it?
This charm seeps lifeblood and will certainly improve your constitution

[sinful nimbus]

???

[civic elm]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

no he didn't

[civic elm]

Who says what is and what is not a taboo

[sinful nimbus]

Its called a taboo once idk why the fandom collectively took that to mean god banned it 😭

[spark valve]

a bit of a taboo is not how you describe guzzling a vial of the zombie virus

[civic elm]

A bit doesnt hurt

It only gives 2 hearts

[sinful nimbus]

Taboos aren't laws they're just breaking social norms

[civic elm]

Unless your doing r5

Yep I get it

[blissful harbor]

i think even a little bit of a virus whose whip thing is you injesting it or spreading it in someway

is bad

just me tho

[cunning cradle]

was jalubra even alive during hallownest’s peak?

[civic elm]

No confirmation of it being bad other than the big parkour in the abyss

[spark valve]

which also doesn't suggest it's bad

[sinful nimbus]

Even a little bit of a virus is bad and this is why I'm antivaxx

[blissful harbor]

shut

[sinful nimbus]

Good to see TC is on my side

[foggy fractal]

w TC

[spark valve]

there will soon be a measles outbreak in tolmekia

[cunning cradle]

The pale king basically birthed hallownest 😭
Joni is literally buried as far away from the kingdom as possible

if there was a taboo it was because of him right?

[civic elm]

It has a god of its own

[sinful nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/no-correlation-what-gif-1944033980381206746

[spark valve]

so does greenpath

[cunning cradle]

what is this even to

[civic elm]

Hmm

[sinful nimbus]

no taboos are like elbows on the table and stuff

[civic elm]

But that isnt in the abyss

And also in godhome

[sinful nimbus]

Idk why the god/king would be in control of that

[cunning cradle]

yeah the pale king is literally shown to be compromising on every issue besides a few lol

he doesn’t have a problem with other gods

[spark valve]

being there doesn't make it evil it's just there

[cunning cradle]

he’s the most influential person in hallownest, if his subjects didn’t like lifeblood i guarantee it was because of him

do we even see any other parts of hallownest that reject lifeblood?

[blissful harbor]

there was also maggot slavery and classism
did he do that too

[civic elm]

But it came with the lifebload from the abyss

[civic elm]

Maggots are tasty tho

[spark valve]

lifeblood isn't from the abyss and it didn't go anywhere

[civic elm]

Abyss creatures

[blissful harbor]

lifeblood is form the sea

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think everything in society traces back to the most influential person around

[blissful harbor]

theres something in the ocean!!

[cunning cradle]

this is a no correlation thing
if the pale king is compromising with other gods that’s the only thing that matters

[sinful nimbus]

Its just a social norm its never related to him and even if it was that wouldn't suggest he banned it

[civic elm]

The one down to the right

[blissful harbor]

ok so how does lifeblood being taboo relate back to PK

[cunning cradle]

bugs in hallownest literally gained their sentience from
him so yeah

[spark valve]

yes that's not from the abyss it's a dream entity in different dreams there's nothing inherently evil about that

[sinful nimbus]

he wasn't involved in all aspects of society though that's nonsense

[spark valve]

he was explicitly reclusive

[cunning cradle]

do you think he wouldn’t be related in godlike affairs?

life blood isn’t just vaping

[sinful nimbus]

Lifeblood being a taboo isn't a godlike affair

[cunning cradle]

there’s a lifeblood god.. and it can literally take over the kingdom

a corpse infected with life blood is a boss in SS

[spark valve]

taboo vs outlawed by divine decree are very different

[sinful nimbus]

Surely that was a thing in HK1 right

[sinful nimbus]

Why didn't he make getting infected a taboo

[civic elm]

Hmm

That would ha e solved alot

If onl Pale king used his foresight correctly

[blissful harbor]

wouldn’t he have more rules and shit in place

idk maybe do something about the gate leading to the god, only openable by a plasmified creature
something

[civic elm]

Paleking also only cares about people folloeing him

So lifebload would be a problem if it was designed like in hkss

So we have 2 logical answers

It wad planned and Paleking called it a taboo so people dont get infected. Or it wasnt planned and just folklore like any other fantasy game

[civic elm]

Am I correct?

[rustic junco]

Wdym, isn't the whole point that its taboo to inject yourself with lifeblood while the mere thought of the Radiance itself summons her into you?

You can't exactly make it taboo to think.

And even then, Radiance spreads maliciously and controls herself more (like when she gets into Myla she demands immediate death upon the knight)

[limpid summit]

Yeah @sinful nimbus you idiot

[sinful nimbus]

Please don't ping me I'm very busy :/

[sinful nimbus]

You can think of Radiance you just have to resist her by not accepting the infection

EG the mantis tribe (most of them)

Making it a taboo wouldn't work against a trickster mind god ofc I was just joking

[limpid summit]

Do not ping me. Ever

[sinful nimbus]

Discord gets serious ping the wrong guy and your discord days could be over

[cunning cradle]

I mean how do we even know that that exists?

or existed during his time i mean

maybe he made the gate to seal the creature

[rustic junco]

Guess you could say you sowed discord....

Though what about the word Hornet

[blissful harbor]

it is an incredibly dumb lock

to seal a creature with its own thing

[rustic junco]

is she named after Hornets, or is Hornet just a name in the HK universe

[blissful harbor]

literally designed so a plasmified creature can enter, nothing else