sk-lore

[foggy stratus]

I'd say rather low. Radiance was a power house.

[sick tinsel]

i doubt

[foggy fractal]

but that's farther into the future though I highly doubt we're gonna see something that powerful in sos

[sick tinsel]

oh wait

the nightmare heart could be too as strong as radiance

[sinful nimbus]

PK has been here since the very start

[foggy fractal]

well Pk and Rad stalemate so he said stronger

[sinful nimbus]

strength is much more than mere combat prowess..

[sick tinsel]

idont think hes close to radiance level

if he knew hes stronger than her he wouldve tried his chances

[twin dragon]

Oh so stronger means dumber now

[foggy fractal]

and look whos still alive during the events of Hollow Knight

[paper mantle]

Mother Silk, Steel Masters, maybe other wyrm...

[foggy fractal]

GMS is not stronger buh!!!

[sick tinsel]

mother silk ???

[sick tinsel]

1v1

[paper mantle]

I think she was stronger on Pharloom's heyday

[sick tinsel]

nah

[twin dragon]

pk is not fighting radiance being at a huge disatvantatge

plus he's just risking his life which is smt he wouldn't go

[sick tinsel]

elaborate on this

[twin dragon]

he cant js force radiance into the physical world

plus the radiance is an idea god

I dont think you just can brute force her

[sick tinsel]

so hes not as strong as the radiance

🤷

[twin dragon]

He has many more impressive feats

And uh, being in radiance's own dreamscape wouldnt help pk

[spark valve]

killing radiance isn't as simple as hitting her a bunch, she's a living idea

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah the whole I won't be forgotten and that giant ass statue thing

[sick tinsel]

basically the chances of us getting something stronger than radiance is low

atleast just mentionned

we dont know much about steel masters

[twin dragon]

she's very durable but the pale king showed many more capabilities

[craggy smelt]

steel masters can seemingly threaten even pale beings, though they're a group so they might not be that powerful individually

[sick tinsel]

i mean if we look into it, we dont have any info on how the radiance hallownest looked like and what abilities she had, all we know that she started the infection because she was abandoned

[twin dragon]

I mean

we see her act at basically full power

in the game

[sick tinsel]

yea but do we know if she had the ability to make bugs have independent thought like the pale king ?

[twin dragon]

Idfk

This is not necessarily confirmed

ik that dialogue is there but there's a different implication

Nope

zii states that such punishment is applied especially to bugs with a higher will

a will to resist

like that concept to zii herself is very alien

Not quite the same as giving existing bugs intellect

as far as we know she doesnt have a beacon like the pk does

There is

Hornet isn't really a hb

And she already calls hornet "Pale it", she already has a nickname for her

It just doesn't add up

Plus several dialogues directly after adding to the context of zii not understanding the fact that some bugs can resist dominance or go on their own will

Things becoming hbs appear to be very specific circumstances

still doesnt really disprove anything else i've said

As for higher caste sure wtv

but its not elaborated upon in the context of the convo

Buddy the steel masters are undoubtedly very powerful lmfao

you dont need to make the hb argument to prove that they're powerful

they can supress a bug's will, mind and basically lobotomize them into seemingly eternal servitude

[sick tinsel]

fair

[sick tinsel]

half hb

[twin dragon]

Its either hb or not hb

even if she's got genes

[sick tinsel]

mm

[spark valve]

reading zii's lines as about higher thought/free will is a way to read them but at the end of the day there's just not much point in discussing whether it'll be that or the much lamer power creep until it happens

[twin dragon]

god forbid speculation

[foggy fractal]

god forbid tc writes good lore

[twin dragon]

never

what game has good lore ffs

[spark valve]

outer wilds

[foggy fractal]

nine sols

[spark valve]

ultrakill

could go on and on there are plenty

[sick tinsel]

five nights at freddys

why tf the hate on fnaf 😔

[twin dragon]

Ass

cheeks

[sick tinsel]

hungry knight

[twin dragon]

No but what game has good lore if i don't like it

[sinful nimbus]

Congrats on Ultrakill for being the only indie shooter with lore 🥹

[neon hound]

https://tenor.com/view/danny-devito-its-always-sunny-applaud-happy-cry-clapping-gif-18958303

[paper mantle]

So higher cast is...?

[sick tinsel]

[twin dragon]

congrats on ultrakill for being the only shooter.

[foggy fractal]

congrats on ultrakill for being the only game

[sick tinsel]

congrates on ultrakill for being the only

[twin dragon]

congrats on ultrakill

[neon hound]

Congrats

[twin dragon]

C

[neon hound]

c

[sick tinsel]

ِ

[paper mantle]

Yes, but honestly I'm not convinced.

[neon hound]

https://tenor.com/view/woody-toy-story-buzz-dab-me-up-dab-up-gif-26395273

[paper mantle]

Where?

Just in case, I said I wasn't convinced, not that I didn't like it.

[sinful nimbus]

Well surprisingly it is the only shooter in its niche

[twin dragon]

Surprisingly ultrakill is the only thing ever

[paper mantle]

Thank you

That clarifies several things.

Beings like Hornet and the Vessels are part of the higher cast, with the potential to be HB, but not being one themselves.

[whole holly]

Higher Caste only related to status, as opposed to Higher Being which is broader

[twin dragon]

Higher caste is generally broader as it includes hbs and some other stuff

[paper mantle]

The Higher Being isn't a status too?

[paper mantle]

Like Hornet, for example

[whole holly]

Higher Being is broader in description, meaning beings who are above all others, Higher Caste is specifically caste-related

[paper mantle]

In other words, there is a large group called the Higher Cast, and within that group are the Higher Beings.

[whole holly]

they are, but they aren't always mutually interchangeable

[paper mantle]

[twin dragon]

I mean bugs that are of higher caste are higher beings plus wtv they birth

i guess

theres not a clear definition

[whole holly]

higher beings are higher caste but their children are higher caste too, Higher Caste does carry different context to higher being

[paper mantle]

All HBs belong to the Higher Cast, but not all those in the Higher Cast are HBs

[twin dragon]

Yeah but the category itself includes more examples

[whole holly]

name such examples

[paper mantle]

Would the Higher Cast be the offspring of HB?

The Mosskins and Weavers are Higher Cast?

[whole holly]

Mosskin definitely aren't, Weavers can be argued as such, Vessels are, Hornet is, Mothkin is unlikely, maybe Grimmchild is?

[twin dragon]

Higher beings and non-higher beings

[whole holly]

i am aware of that, given hornet is higher caste

Higher Being status can not be inherited, but Higher Caste can be inherited!

i wonder if there are other wyrms who established kingdom other than Pale King

[sinful nimbus]

When I'm in a causing pointless semantic arguments in the HK lore community competition and my opponent is the word Caste

[paper mantle]

._.

[twin dragon]

When im in an argument but i realize its pointless

[paper mantle]

But didn't you say that the Vessels could have been HB if it weren't for the Void?

[sinful nimbus]

Higher Being is a classification of power if you inherit enough power you are a higher being

PK's children are far from his power level though

[craggy smelt]

hey, do you guys think the higher caste and the ancient caste are the same thing?

[whole holly]

but none have done that, so as far as we are concerned, that is hypothetical

[paper mantle]

And how do we know what's Higher Cast and what isn't?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[whole holly]

mostly from statements and implications

[twin dragon]

p...p...powerscaling??

[whole holly]

i don't think it is meant to be deep, like it obviously means caste, but we can't confirm all rulers to be of higher caste, for some reason

[sinful nimbus]

when you're getting into the fantasy setting but they introduce a group of gods who are stronger than mortals (powerscaling slop)

[paper mantle]

No... No! Never mention that word

[twin dragon]

When you're living and require a gas (dependanceslop)

[whole holly]

When I'm in a performatively criticizing aspects of HK lore competition and my opponent is the word powerscaling

[craggy smelt]

but don't you want to know who would win in a fight?

[paper mantle]

Unn vs Grimm

XD

[cedar dock]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/433118012896182274/1502030663644348483/Hollow_Knight_Silksong_tCWme7kJFt.jpg?ex=69fe3a90&is=69fce910&hm=c2430070054ce9663168225689e3bf2676fe6509d2a6aa2b088ead40bd09743c&

Epic embbed fail

[tawdry flare]

Smh. Not active enough

[sick tinsel]

grimm

[edgy nebula]

ip grabber or whatever the kids these days say

[near jasper]

H

[dire lynx]

grimm isnt even a hb, unn mogs

[dire lynx]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNHAwYTc3azF0Mnp2cGRtYjZkdHNuaHVpMmticWR6dTF6d2pqdTd6YSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/dCiLA5niMLgsbeANvO/giphy.gif

[sinful nimbus]

grimm is a higher being

he's also not weakened and has actually demonstrated combat prowess unlike unn

[paper mantle]

Hahaha, I was just kidding, but I'd still like to see an interaction between Grimm and Unn.

[paper mantle]

?

[sinful nimbus]

He's just the nightmare heart's physical manifestation

[dire lynx]

hes a vessel for the heart

[sinful nimbus]

He (and the entire troupe excluding Brumm and Divine) are said to be ultimately the same as the Nightmare Heart, basically just extensions of it

[paper mantle]

I agree, so he is not a HB

[sinful nimbus]

The heart is a higher being and he is the heart

[dire lynx]

hes a part of the hearts power

that doesnt mean he has power equal to the heart

[paper mantle]

Where?

[sinful nimbus]

They're the same guy dawg

[sinful nimbus]

I know you creature, and the form time shall bring. You may be all and one, clan and master, but this land shall never bear so foreign a king.

Grimm also calls the heart his own

They're just considered to be all the same thing

[dire lynx]

in the same way my finger is the same as me, i am still vastly more powerful than a single on of my fingers

[paper mantle]

Does that mean that Grimm and Heart are one and the same?

[sinful nimbus]

OK but you wouldn't separate you and your finger

[dire lynx]

im not a magical god

[sinful nimbus]

The game doesn't separate Grimm and the Heart they're the same guy and its weird to suggest he would for some reason be less powerful

[lone folio]

If fingers are your power what are you without them 🤔

[foggy fractal]

maybe finger/arm/limb discussion needs to be in the top 3 hollow knight discourses :thinkig

🤔

[sinful nimbus]

"Guys who wins Unn's eyestalk or Nightmare Heart's finger"

[foggy fractal]

🤔

[sinful nimbus]

True

[random harbor]

Grimm - General - Dream Nailed in Nightmare King Grimm fight

Heart of Flame...
In dreams... Born anew...
Power... Fear...

@nostor_10. used /npcs quest name: Grimm category: General dialogue: Dream Nailed in Nightmare King Grimm fight

[lone folio]

How many fingers would it take to beat one Unn fan

[paper mantle]

Was this it?

[dire lynx]

better than anything from silksong

[sinful nimbus]

The limb analogy that we use to show LOS's relationship with the void is basically the same for NMH and Grimm

[lone folio]

What does this have to do with clan members and fingers

[sinful nimbus]

They're just extensions of the "main" body

[dire lynx]

"why hornet racist"
"is this a higher being"
"whats the timeline"

[paper mantle]

I'm looking for the Grimm dialogue where he says that the Heart is his.

[dire lynx]

he is the heart

[sinful nimbus]

It was over as soon as the game got a reputation for having an ill defined timeline

[paper mantle]

Yes, but I'm looking for the aforementioned dialogue.

[dire lynx]

star already showed it

[lone folio]

What's wrong with the timeline?

[sinful nimbus]

It was also over for hornet racism discourse when the game got a reputation for having good lore 🤫

[paper mantle]

Could you help?

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing

People just make it seem really complicated or vague

[foggy fractal]

thats true!

[lone folio]

Ah yes the "how many years after HK does SK happen 🤔"

[dire lynx]

when did the coral gorge dry out

[sinful nimbus]

Prob Citadel era

Don't ask how

[paper mantle]

-_-

Pls

[lone folio]

After the 3rd year of silksong development

[covert night]

at least lace age and phantom pronoun discourses died out

[dire lynx]

only here

[foggy fractal]

lace age fallen off 💔

[lone folio]

They flipped the waterfall switch by accident and the next day TC had blasted steps

[sinful nimbus]

Fine craft dear Wyrm, and perfect tool to prolong the heart of Grimm.

[dire lynx]

that garbage is still rampant in yt comments, x and insta

[sinful nimbus]

I saw a tweet about how mossbag "lost his reputation" because he called phantom a she

[dire lynx]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMXcyM3Bhb2FzN295OXBqcjE5b21oemJ4Yzd2cHViZXI0cmF3dGFvYyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KMWLewXDUKQSlWyyga/giphy.gif

[covert night]

yt/ig comments and twitter do not have valid opinion so it doesnt count

[sinful nimbus]

echochambers are a wonderful thing

[foggy fractal]

Masterful! Even a vessel discarded bears fierce strength.
Fine craft dear Wyrm, and perfect tool to prolong the heart of Grimm.
This one?

[sinful nimbus]

wait is there an HK community on IG 😭

[foggy fractal]

folk,,,,,,,,,

cousin...............

[covert night]

there was a page that posted pale king propaganda

[paper mantle]

Thank you

Finally

[dire lynx]

yes, there are even a ton of impersonation accounts lol

[paper mantle]

🙄

[dire lynx]

(i run one for unn)

[sinful nimbus]

oh I thought you meant like impersonating HK youtubers or something

[paper mantle]

Yes

[dire lynx]

this is peak btw

[covert night]

btw is it ever explained that how did that happen

[sinful nimbus]

No

[covert night]

i don't remember what they were posting but it's a pale king propaganda so it must be good

[lone folio]

No

[sinful nimbus]

Oops the Gourmand got thirsty and drank all the water to wash off the taste of the pickled muckmaggot 🥺

[dire lynx]

theres also a pharloom propaganda iirc

[covert night]

like ducts have infested water, citadel has spa, did they build the citadel in the middle of flowing water and just used the water for spa and high halls

[foggy fractal]

we need some city of steel propaganda

[covert night]

"void related deaths decreased by 80% since steel assassins began their duties"

[dire lynx]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPuM15tjkZX/?igsh=OW5uanFlZnd3ZWp3

The acc is pale king official

[foggy fractal]

"Got a higher being bothering you? We'll compress them!"

[lone folio]

"Pharloom killed a vassal and you can help us avenge her! Sign up for the assassin program right now!"

[dire lynx]

This is thr comments on the GMS propaganda

[foggy fractal]

remind me again or the fire in wisp thicket like magical fire
or are they just normal fire

[dire lynx]

magical, the wisps are living things that existed before the cult and let to its creation

[near jasper]

Thd Farmland place of pharloom being directly beside the arson cult is kinda ironic

[sinful nimbus]

Just realized every final boss so far has been female

Maybe Sharpe will change that

[foggy fractal]

like in silksong?

[paper mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/baby-screaming-polvo-fuego-fire-baby-meme-gif-10034606886425990272

[sinful nimbus]

The series too

Rad was a girl

[stray grove]

THK, Rad, GMS, and LL are all girls

[nimble parcel]

the hollow knight

[stray grove]

THK is also a girl actually

All Vessels are female

[sinful nimbus]

Bury my sisters two by two

[foggy fractal]

what happened to the gendered child thing

was that retconned?

🤔

[stray grove]

Gendered Child was always stupid

I don’t think TC understood what gender meant

[sinful nimbus]

#girlboss

they wrote one line obviously saying that she was the only child of PK with a sex and WE spent years arguing vessels are categorically incapable of having a gender bro

[glacial warren]

Well yeah Vessels can’t have any concept of Gender due to being artificial Void constructs, like the Kingsmoulds or the Collector. Hornet has one because she’s a genuine organic creature.

[stray grove]

🥀

Good job Star I hope you’re happy

[stray grove]

This is just wrong by the way Kingsmoulds are basically robots so that’s a false equivalence and Collector probably assimilated LKB’s gender along with the rest of its mind
Vessels are also probably capable of developing gender identities gender has nothing to do with whether or not you’re a “genuine organic creature”

Vessels are sapient and capable of developing all sorts of other emotions desires relationships you name it

TC were like almost certainly conflating sex and gender

[foggy fractal]

well TC sucks at writing so I'm not suprised

[tawdry flare]

"Sexless child" doesn't have as much aura though

[foggy fractal]

well she would be one with a sex, that being a female, how the hell do you even say that anyway

[random aspen]

sex

s-s-s-s-s-se.... y'know... 😳

[spark valve]

Yeah I mean that’s pretty obvious

[paper mantle]

...
I wouldn't understand that dialogue of Myla. Does Radiance whisper to Myla about THK's past, or what?

[paper mantle]

'Female child' maybe?

[paper mantle]

Also, why sisters and not siblings?

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Sibling

Description:
Fragment of a lingering will.

Hunter's notes:
Far down below us, beneath the kingdom, the air grows stiller and a sense of emptiness pervades. Can life flourish down there? If so, I will hunt it.

@nostor_10. used /journal name: Sibling

[foggy stratus]

Vessel Gender debate? In my Silksong Lore Channel? As far as we know no Vessel has a gender. TK is confirmed genderless, THK is only referred to as like "the Vessel" or some shit and all the rest are fucking dead.

[eternal gazelle]

I mean those are individual instances, the more pressing evidence is hornet being referred to as "the gendered child"

[spark valve]

the reason it remains a discussion is because tc seems to conflate sex and gender

[edgy nebula]

pretty sure it's just meant to be one of those creepy nursery rhymes

[trail wagon]

Lies and truths must be discussed...
Stone will break and steel shall rust...
Caps and shells may fall to dust...
But Mister Mushroom readjusts... - Mr Mushroom

...

STEEL MENTIONED??

[trail wagon]

Where? :0

Hot take, I think the Citadel doesn't actually have a coherent story and TC don't fully know when each of the plot points has happened

[low sand]

Why does karmelita have the cogwork dancers motif

[sick tinsel]

it dosent have a gender because it is a thing

[frank dove]

Could you timestamp

[low sand]

Just listen to both

[frank dove]

Could have to do with old age of pharloom or 'heart theme' if those exist

[frank dove]

I'll check in a bit

But it could just be an accident

Fleatopia sounds like crust king khann

Because coral gorge was originally what fleatopia's song was

[low sand]

It's also the same motif in clover dancers

[frank dove]

And verdania I assume

[low sand]

Nope

[frank dove]

Verdania and the dancer songs have same motif

[foggy stratus]

That's because Clover Dancers are just Cogwork Dancers.

[low sand]

I never realized

[low sand]

So karmelita is also a cogwork dancer

[foggy stratus]

They don't have genders because they don't have the concept of a gender. Almost all of them are dead, THK likely wouldn't get the chance to develop the conceot of a gender and TK is confirmed to be genderless.

[fading shard]

I get a widow gender debate but vessel really?

[foggy stratus]

Widow? Of all charecters, Widow?

[fading shard]

Yes

because some people are specific

I mean widow is obviously female

but it pains me less then a vessel one

People argue on the gender on Hornet

and the white lady

some people still think hornet is void

[foggy stratus]

Widow identifies as a walmart bag.

[fading shard]

atp this community is more insane then the undertale one

when it comes to the story

specifically the story

[fading shard]

Listen man I prefer a widow gende debate or hornet is void debate

because it's easier to prove them wrong

those who have a vessel gender debate

are practically impossible to convince

[foggy stratus]

I feel like they dont understand a creature not wanting nor having a gender. Since, ya know, thats broadly what all Vessels are like. Neither wanting nor having a gender.

[fading shard]

I don't mind the phantom gender debate honestly

[fading shard]

feel as though they are likely a she but hey it's a fine debate unlike whatever the christ the vessel gender debate is

[sick tinsel]

not really bro

atleast you would survive if you started a gender debate

[little spire]

Cuz of her voice I believe

Btw do you guys know what Sherma’s pronouns are?
She/rma

Get it?

[foggy stratus]

I think Sherma is a he.

[little spire]

I’ll walk myself out

[midnight reef]

it is confirmed that he is a he yes

[foggy stratus]

I recall Hornet calling him like "sir" or something.

[foggy fractal]

Search for traces of the pilgrim, Sherma, and track his location.
Sherma was travelling to the Citadel's Whiteward.

[midnight reef]

in the quest description of Balm for the Wounded

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[little spire]

It’s a pun on his name 😭

[midnight reef]

Widows gender is also 100% known
for one, all Weavers are female
for two, Hornet does refer to her as female, iirc

[foggy fractal]

yeah how is that even a debate

[covert night]

something something hk fans

[foggy stratus]

Something something media literacy.

[foggy fractal]

huh

what does that say?

[foggy stratus]

[echo vapor]

[solar gale]

something something the inability to read

[stray grove]

Phantom is also female

[low oracle]

I've heard very many people say it's "they/them", so are you sure? Technically she was created a daughter, but that doesn't mean it identifies as one.

[low oracle]

Makes sense, if you still think it after the game literally tells you in the most direct way and you choose to ignore it.

[foggy stratus]

Lace refers to her as "sister" so I'm inclined to think Phantom did identify that way.

[foggy stratus]

Hell it's not even the game, its TC going out of their way to say so.

[low oracle]

Where did "they/them" come from anyway? I heard it so much but I didn't actually notice it lore-wise.

[foggy stratus]

Hornet refers to Phantom as "they" in the journal.

[low oracle]

Believe what you want then, both can work equally. And it's not like it is important. Don't get me wrong, I love representation, but without a certain, unopposed argument the discussion is pointless.

[humble oasis]

At the start near the gate

[chilly anvil]

Lore

[trail wagon]

She doesn't, they just use a similar pattern

Ohhh, I read it as cogwork core at first, my bad

[low sand]

Lol

[trail wagon]

The clover dancers one is even more similar

Honestly I think it's a coincidence

One of two things I don't really like about SS soundtracks

The other is that the FS doesn't have an OST of her own

Which imo isn't THAT big of an issue when you actually play the game, because honestly I didn't realize it was the same OST at first, cause it'd been like 60 hours since I fought the Widow

But still, she deserves better

[fading shard]

I still think that's a dumb reason to assume that phantom is they/them when in the hunter's jouranl a lot of characters

get referred to as they/them

and by that I mean those who have confirmed genders

the likelyhood of phantom being non binary or genderless is definitely plausible and I give a good 20% that it might be the case

but yeah

anyhow hope you all are doing well

[whole holly]

all mentions of her use gender neutral language except for exhaust organ needolin memory

Exhaust Organ Needolin dialogue: "She spun us to fade... She spun us to break... Why us, sister? Why us?" It is unclear who is speaking to whom.

[fading shard]

One is a gigantic tank

the other is looking at them sadly

I feel as though it's pretty clear the one that's not in a tank is the one to be talking

[fading shard]

also what other mentions

[whole holly]

it is, i agree

[whole holly]

all other mentions that we know of and have examples of

[fading shard]

I'm asking what other mentions other then hunter's journal

Because they get mentioned about 3 or 2 times

[whole holly]

that's what the wiki states, i am just trusting it

[whole holly]

also are you in mossbag server?

[fading shard]

nope why do you ask?

[whole holly]

people discuss lore there as well, other than silksong anf this channel, mossbag is where most lore is discussed

[fading shard]

It's mossbag so idk

[whole holly]

wdym?

do all chapels have religious significance? do we see similar themes in hollow knight?

[foggy stratus]

Probably not.
Ruined Chapel was likely the start of the pilgrimage we're Pilgrams used to enter from so maybe
Chapel of the Reaper seemed to be to like honor a certain silk harvested?
Chapel of the Beast looked to have been an old seat of power.
Chapel of the Wanderer is a graveyard.
Chapel of the Witch is Greyroot's so definitely not religious.
And Chapel of the Archetic seemed to have been a memory bank storage thing. And a storage area for Archetics.

Maybe they like are similar to Shaman Mounds? Being the regional equivalent, but were mostly long since abandoned likely due to GMS and the Citadel.

[foggy stratus]

I admit this has some issues but its still interesting nonetheless.

[whole holly]

Citadel shunned them, I assume Ruined Chapel was religious because it is chapel of shaman

[midnight reef]

Pilgrims came from all over Pharloom

You can see evidence of the Pilgrimage in areas like Bilewater, the Ruined Chapel only marks one start of the Pilgrimage, for some pilgrims

And above Pharloom, based on the Needolin dialogue in the Nameless town

Bellhart, Mosshome, and Bonebottom are all centers of Pilgrim activity also, Bellhart and Mosshome likely providing a decent flow of Pilgrims to the Citadel for years

[charred crater]

guys why did the god seeker didnt fell atracted by gms when it was in the surface but instead went all the way to hallownest

[midnight reef]

likely because were the God Seekers came from was nowhere near Pharloom

[charred crater]

but the surface tunnel its the same like in the forbbiden memory

even same or equal sprites

[midnight reef]

looks like

[charred crater]

wdym

[midnight reef]

looks like =/= is

[charred crater]

then why didnt it go to pharloom

and seek gods there

like gms is a pale being

[midnight reef]

.

[charred crater]

.

[midnight reef]

read the message that I replied to

[charred crater]

ik

but the fact it passed above pharloom

[midnight reef]

we have no reason to assume that.

just because it "looks like" doesnt mean that it is.

the abandoned town looks like it uses the same assets as the howling cliffs, therefore, they must be the same place!

...Im pretty sure it is actually using the same sprites from HK, though they might've been touched up for Silksong

[foggy fractal]

yeah we don't know if its the same place

[limpid summit]

It’s not the same place

It’s just TC drawing something that looks similar

Godseeker would talk about it and it’s like barely the same

[foggy fractal]

Hey given TC's track record who knows

[spark valve]

It would be really funny if the sea is the land of storms

Incredibly stupid but really funny

May as well just lean into the slop atp

[median jungle]

what the hell is mister mushroom talking about bro i swear he broke the 4th wall and now I suspect he's making references but I can't possibly tell what to

Even hornet's ass has stopped trying to speak to this shroom

[near jasper]

Probably the pilgrimage/citadel

I think

And also you personally

He knows what you did

[covert night]

rocks... they look similar...

[near jasper]

Man can we get like a William tweet to scream at instead of this or something 😭

[whole ridge]

Bug.

[foggy stratus]

For the love of Void let him say something like "insert ship here is canon" or some crap so we can go ape shit.

[near jasper]

The ship is named as ambigously as possible to make people mad

[foggy stratus]

Its Horce.

Or, and hear me out on this, Twelfth Architect×Zaza. Twelfth Zazitect

[near jasper]

We should use silkeater as a weaver slur

[foggy stratus]

I have some slurs for the Drow that could also work.

Silk spinner, web Weaver, cant remember the rest rn.

[near jasper]

Thread raker

[foggy stratus]

Fucking spool wrapper.

[stray knot]

i know the thing on nuu's back/in her room is a backpack or something but why does that shit look like a bone in slab of meat 😭

[foggy stratus]

Its meant to look like a snail shell.

[stray knot]

what's with the bone like thing then?

[foggy stratus]

Its just a design.

[magic rose]

GUYS

I HAVE A THEORY

A GAME THEORY

Matpat is TEAM CHERRY

[elfin shard]

I wondered why sinners road and bike water are less affected in act 3 compared to other areas of the map. But then I remembered that the void likes to latch on godly (pale?) power

So sinners road is literally so godless that even the void doesn't want to be there

[foggy stratus]

The Void goes where the Silk was. Since Sinners Road and Bilewater both have silk eating muckmaggots its not crazy to assume that they'd have less Silk over all than other regions.

[fading shard]

yeah I'm not joining said linked discord

[stark ocean]

https://klipy.com/gifs/tata-mpo--k01KR68KM67VJCYQDTJAQJMD0A0

[twin dragon]

the knight IS the PALE KING

🗣️ 🔥

[fading shard]

the pale king is the father of the hollow knight, vessels and hornet and also their sibling and child and husband of the white lady

[foggy stratus]

Someone give me a random enemy.

[foggy fractal]

Shadow Charger

[foggy stratus]

I already wrote that one.

[foggy fractal]

did you do the slabflies yet

[foggy stratus]

I've done Guard and Wardenfly.

[foggy fractal]

now do freshfly

[foggy stratus]

Hes never been in the Slab proper so its going to be a Hunter pondering™ entry.

[foggy fractal]

better than what we have now

I'll take it

[foggy stratus]

"To be born into servitude with no hope for escape... bound by shackles from generations past... is this living, or simply the illusion of living?"-The Hunter

[whole holly]

what's the topic

[foggy stratus]

Im rewriting the freshfly entry.

[sick tinsel]

[tardy relic]

Has anyone made a video or a short covering all the npcs who have irl references? I know Pavo is Pavarotti, Karmelita is Carmen from the opera Carmen, phantom is a reference to phantom of the opera, Garamond is Don Quixote, and professor Xylotol's name is a reference to zylitol which is is a sugar substitute that's deadly toxic to dogs. But I wonder if there's any others I'm missing

[foggy stratus]

I think Trobbio is partly a reference to his voice actor.

[tardy relic]

Yes! Forgot Trobbio. His character is also a general thespian/egotistical actor stereotype (or maybe archetype? Idk my brain isn't quite working yet)

[near jasper]

Shakra is a reference to the name of her weapon (chakram)

[twin dragon]

truth nuke

[sick tinsel]

khann is genghis khan

couldent be more obvious

[foggy stratus]

Seth is Seth Goldman(I think that was his name)

[sick tinsel]

first sinner COULD be joan of arc

[tardy relic]

Literally just came back here to add this lol thank you!

[tardy relic]

Dude I teared up when I learned Seth's backstory

[tardy relic]

This one is new to me. What's the connection? I'm clearly missing something bc that connection doesn't feel obvious to me

[sick tinsel]

i dont know, i said maybe, because first sinner PROBABLY got a dream telling her her nature, causing her to rebel with her sisters, which can be compared to joan since she got a "dream from god" telling her to fight the british

so yeah its a maybe

[ember river]

Nah, the other references are much more overt

[tardy relic]

Yeah I'd put that as a resounding maybe as well. That one feels a little thin to me esp compared to how so many other references are so unsubtle they pretty much beat you over the head. JoA was burned at the stake for being a heretic, but her dream from god was continuous guidance in the form of voices from saints. I've always wondered if she was schizophrenic.

[ember river]

Also FS isn't imprisoned because of her rebellion against GMS, she complained to the other Weavers

Because they were acting like they were gods, while, in fact, not being gods

[twin dragon]

Or because it would hurt the citadel

It doesnt make them any less kind

They would want to keep ruling even at the cost of one of their own

[edgy nebula]

yeah either way it's pretty bad

fs is either imprisoned because of the other weaver's fragile egos or because the other weavers want to continue essentially enslaving bugs to the citadel

[errant vault]

Halo! I’m a new user here. I have a lore article or video about Nameless Town that I’d like to share. Can I post it here?

[tawdry flare]

Yeah but if it’s bad we’ll ban you

[errant vault]

hahaha I promise not. It has already received 30,000 views and 1,500 likes in just two days on a Chinese website. But I thinks my guess is still new for international friends. It’s a theory about the Conductor and Nameless Town

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcYEeOQIp1Q&t=136s I have made a English subtitle.

If you’re interested, I can also try to explain this theory here in writing

[knotty prism]

thats....a joke right?

[tardy relic]

So today my friend pointed out that the barnaks are probably a half life reference. Haven't played half life, so that's not something I would have picked up

[cinder pebble]

not played either but just looked it up and they’re basically identical lol

[tardy relic]

Yeahhhh tc do be just blugeoning us over the head when they make a reference lol

[sick tinsel]

oh yeah i noticed

[edgy nebula]

honestly a pretty good theory! i never noticed the conductor's connections to the nameless town

my only real gripe is that a few of the connections you make towards the end are a bit hard to believe personally, but i think the theory is pretty well made

[errant vault]

Thank you! Wow! You’ve watched my video! I’m not entirely sure if my English translation is accurate. I’m considering using AI to generate an English voiceover today. Yes, the final speculation about the eye is just my own interpretation—the core discussion is really about the connection between the Conductor and the Nameless Town. Thank you for your support.🙏

[terse wadi]

What if the wastes that surround (at minimum Hallownest and Pharloom) are the result of a very powerful higher being, the surface village and the needolin memory had me thinking, if the wastes are natural and always there why would anyone settle in it and if the previous notions are true how did Hallownest, Pharloom, and presumably others work around this to establish their kingdoms

[foggy stratus]

There nothing inherently magic about the Wastes. They're just devoid of much of anything. Certain places, however, have actual resources and materials for a Kingdom or civilization to be established.

[terse wadi]

Perhaps

The biggest gripe isn't really established kingdoms but why on earth anyone would settle in it if it was always there

Even if it was natural I feel it had to start at some point and wasn't always a thing because it doesn't make sense otherwise

Not like I'm trying to argue something ground breaking I'm just curious because I don't think it's really explored much

[errant vault]

This question is a bit like asking why Earth exists where it does. For us humans, we can use our knowledge to explain it, but the world of Hollow Knight has gods. When the Silk Mother suddenly appears in the Pharloom，she can enable civilization to develop there. The Nameless Town, however, exists outside the Pharloom，its civilization predates the arrival of the Silk Mother and is not influenced by her.

[terse wadi]

Act 3's storyline proves civilization existed in what is now pharloom perhaps more fragmented in some parts but it was there

But massive kingdoms seems to be a thing with HB

[charred crater]

if all endings are cannon in hk why ist hornet trapped in sealed siblings ending

[terse wadi]

Especially Pale ones

[robust wagon]

Bc all endings aren't canon in hk

[terse wadi]

Bro really asking for the sealbreaker bugs

[charred crater]

all 5 are cannon

[robust wagon]

They aren't...
Tc said they were before silksong as a game was even an idea

It's an outdated statement

[terse wadi]

They all are just not to Silksong though I argue we live in a multiverse in the HKverse cause Weaver Queen and twisted child are still endings to the game the timeline just ends there and I guess you could consider sister of void to be the "main timeline" as it currently goes the furthest chronologically but the non voidheart endings can still lead to Weaver Queen and Twisted child imo

[terse wadi]

While this is true, saying it's because SS wasn't a game yet is a bit of copout since it's already been revealed they actually planned for it to be a game fairly early on

But I would like a follow-up statement

As to whether it still holds true and how

Or if it doesn't

[charred crater]

i think were all just waiting for sea of sorrow lore ngl

[errant vault]

It’s right. For example, the Crust King Khann and the Ant Queen both represent the earlier civilization, while the Mother of Silk is a later arrival.

[terse wadi]

Anyways I stand by my statement, if you want to call SOV "Canon" or "main timeline" that's fine but I think the other HK endings can lead to WQ and TC

[terse wadi]

Yeah Verdania too

Also a point to my point about the wastes not being there is what sands of karak used to be

[charred crater]

is first sinner chained by GMS or the other weavers

[terse wadi]

Other weavers

[terse wadi]

If the wastes were always a thing (at least in Pharloom) Khann's kingdom would not have been so bright and vibrant

It would be how we see it now

[charred crater]

bc she descovered that they werent pale beings and that could result on pilgrims stoping worshiping the sitadel leading to GMS awakening so to prevent that they chained her

[robust wagon]

I mean, for a very long time, silksong was just a dlc to hk.

[terse wadi]

It's because she realised weavers are just ascended (Pharlids I think?) divinely blessed by GMS and not her actual progeny hence not really all that divine and the other weavers were in denial

[terse wadi]

Last I recall Silksong was a game during Godmaster production

So late 2018

I think it was a DLC after Hollow Knights release but by the end of the DLC's it wasn't

So it's true it wasn't always going to be a game

But it was determined fairly early on that it was a game

Part of the reason it took so long was because they kept adding shit

No way this was gonna stay a DLC for long

Sea of sorrow will be fun

Hopefully we get the cut village and Sharpe

[charred crater]

i think team cherry saw the potencial and decided to make it a completly different game

[terse wadi]

Perhaps

[charred crater]

so if it stayed a dlc hornet vs rad ?

[charred crater]

but this would make much sence ngl

[terse wadi]

Like I'm convinced the only reason things got "cut" was because they had to actually release the game and decided to add the rest as dlc

[terse wadi]

Hornet would lose

Radiance dies because of TK's use of void

[charred crater]

ik

[terse wadi]

Not from a lack of strength but simply a lack of being able to finish her off

[robust wagon]

The statement about canon endings is from Grimm troupe era, iirc

[charred crater]

but perhaps sea of sorrow brings more answers and maibe more lore

[terse wadi]

And they should revisit the topic so we can put it to bed

[terse wadi]

Likely

I expect the new village and a way to access the "coral forest" that got cut

[charred crater]

i mean i hope it doesnt realise 8 months after the trailer like god home

[terse wadi]

Anything else is a pleasent surprise

[terse wadi]

They said 2026 and that was like in November or December

So in all likelihood, this year

[charred crater]

does mister mushroom have some good lore or is it just bullshit

[terse wadi]

Mr Mushroom is there is what he is

[robust wagon]

Yeah, I really hope they do a qna or smth when sos comes out

[charred crater]

i mean hornet just realises when you get the wish that since hes there theres something bad

[charred crater]

maybe the void ngl

[terse wadi]

That's cause Mr Mushroom is a witness to Civilizations dying

He's literally a herald of the end

Not by his own causing

[robust wagon]

He only appears in act 3, so yeah it's gms destroying pharloom and the void

[terse wadi]

But if he's there, things are bleak

[robust wagon]

Herald to a new age, not necessarily the end

[charred crater]

btw why was mister mushroom talking to the bird

[terse wadi]

Mr Mushroom does tell Hornet that he only sees the present and doesn't comment on if Hornet can save Pharloom meaning it's not set in stone

[robust wagon]

The bird's chill? idk

[terse wadi]

For a new age to begin the previous one has to end

[robust wagon]

I thought you meant the end in another sense, but that works

[charred crater]

why every character whit those spiral eyes are so lore wise smart

[terse wadi]

Pharloom's Age of Pale silk is certainly over

[terse wadi]

I mean there's many ways you can interpret it

I like that we got Mr Mushroom over Grimm Troupe though

Tbf Pharloom is dying not dead so that's why

But funni Mushroom man is better than Grimm fanservice

I like him but let's not recycle ideas

I think WQ is the only ending where Hornet becomes a HB

[charred crater]

is weaver queen stronger than knight

[midnight reef]

Not really

Silksongs work really started in 2017

[terse wadi]

^

What I've been saying

[midnight reef]

It was made into a full game very very soon after.

[terse wadi]

Can't gauge

[charred crater]

lore wise

[terse wadi]

Depends which version of TK but again no feats from WQ aside from cover the citadel in a heap of silk

Also WQ is simply her rebirth we literally know nothing about her aside from HB status

[midnight reef]

I think it was in 2018 that the map explodes, almost like the game was made into a full thing

[terse wadi]

^

It was in the tailend of the Godmaster DLC production

Then Godmaster released and they went fullblast

[midnight reef]

yeah

Though the First Sketches are from 2017

[terse wadi]

Yuh

[midnight reef]

by the time they really stared working on it, it was 100% a full game

[terse wadi]

I do hope they introduce that silk soul mode they talked about way back when

[terse wadi]

Yeah

[midnight reef]

I hope they dont

then I need to find a new name for my mod

[terse wadi]

I mean they don't need to call it that

I just want whatever the mode was going to be

[midnight reef]

I mena

what it was going to be was Steel Soul, with more content added on the side

changing up parts of the game

What ended up happening is that all of said mechanics that made it different to Steel Soul got cut, so they just called it Steel Soul

[terse wadi]

I think those will be added in a new mode personally

Maybe it'll be in the final dlc like with godmaster

[midnight reef]

No, they were entirely cut

Silk Soul likely delt with things like Crest Slots, Bench Attunement, and maybe even the Bellhub

all of which, have been either radically changed, or removed

[terse wadi]

With how much they added to Silksong and how much they wanted to add more before they decided to draw the line and release the game seems to me Sea of Sorrow will add a lot of "cut" content from the trailer

I think they just didn't have room in the initial release

[midnight reef]

Some of it is 100% gone

Like the Red Coral Gorge- thats not coming back

Nor the Aspids

Bell Bench Attunement and the original system for crest slots? Likely never coming back

[terse wadi]

Nah I have a feeling Gorge will come back somehow you don't call it "sea of sorrow" and not have some of the nautical themes return

[midnight reef]

Its not

the Gorge IS the Blasted Steps and Sands of Karak

it physically cant come back outside of a memory

[terse wadi]

Well yeah, I expect it to be a memory thing

But I think it'll be there

[robust wagon]

Hornet is stronger than the knight (at the end of silksong)

[stray grove]

No

[midnight reef]

Unlike Verdania though, they have no rooms for it

[terse wadi]

Hornet time machining into the old hearts era of Pharloom would be a banger dlc

[robust wagon]

Yes

[stray grove]

TK is much stronger than Hornet

[charred crater]

SL?

[stray grove]

The power level in Pharloom is also lower in general

[midnight reef]

Verdania is what happened when the Aspids (Clover Grove) got split into 2, the Wormways, and Verdania

And then they were on the verge of cutting it, before reworking it into Lost Verdania

[terse wadi]

Presuming we go with SOV as the "canon" ending both DNM and ETV TK are stronger than SOV Hornet, can't comment on WQ hornet

[stray grove]

Lord of Shades is also stronger than WQ Hornet

[foggy fractal]

I doubt weaver queen hornet is stronger than any of the voidheart the knights tbh

[terse wadi]

Probably not

[stray grove]

TK at base vs WQ is the one we can’t comment on lol

[terse wadi]

But I'm not willing to comment in either direction until I got a conformation of WQ's strength

[stray grove]

Because WQ probably isn’t that strong either and TK’s base is way stronger than Hornet’s

[terse wadi]

Which isn't to say I believe she could be I just don't like to make assumptions

[stray grove]

There is no reasonable world where WQ Hornet is even close to that level

[terse wadi]

I really would love a old Pharloom DLC, probably not gonna happen but one can dream

[foggy fractal]

dream? 🤔 memories? 🤔 old Pharloom??? 🤔

[midnight reef]

At best, I expect we get more Elegy of the Deep locations

which, the game really needs

[terse wadi]

Yeah

Let me elegy of the deep all the cut trailer locations

[midnight reef]

Eh

Gorge, maybe

[terse wadi]

^

[midnight reef]

Gloom? No

[terse wadi]

I don't remember Gloom tbh

I think I remember the rest

[midnight reef]

The Gloom is what Bilewater replaced

[terse wadi]

Bilewater is yucky anything is better

[stray grove]

It doesn’t really, I’m as disappointed with the cuts as anyone but Elegy of the Deep was shoehorned in to the rushed third act and felt pretty out of place, in general dreams aren’t really a theme of Silksong like they were in HK so I’m not sure if having more dream locations makes a great deal of sense
Verdania was cool thematically but mechanically pretty garbage

[midnight reef]

it was the orginal home of the Gargant Gloom

[terse wadi]

Only thing I care abou in sea of sorrow is Sharpe and the Dark blue village

*about

alright, well see you all in like 8 months

[foggy fractal]

I doubt we're gonna see Sharpe in sos

[robust wagon]

What's that

[robust wagon]

What makes you say that

[robust wagon]

Yeah he really doesn't seem related

[stray grove]

Hallownest. This kingdom is blessed with true Gods. True! All around, the corpses of pretender Gods. But! Not in Hallownest...

This is Godseeker dialogue, basically she’s referring to the fact that Hallownest has an abnormally high HB density, Pharloom in comparison only ever had one HB (GMS) who is likely much weaker than Hallownest’s individual HBs due to being a big fish in a small pond

Also Hallownest just has better feats, mfs like the Great Knights (namely Ogrim/Dryya) and Sly are far more impressive than anyone in Pharloom

Regarding the original point, TK literally beats Hornet when she’s going all out prior to becoming a literal deity so it’s obviously just stronger than her

Hornet doesn’t get much stronger during the events of SS, TK also beats PV and shit lmao

And Lord of Shades vs Weaver Queen is even more of a stomp

Hornet was only mid tier in Hallownest tbh

She’s top tier in Pharloom because Pharloom is a slavery backwater

[robust wagon]

Are we doing hornet vs the knight or Hallownest vs pharloom?

Hornet vs the knight has less room for interpretation, can we do that?

[stray grove]

Well the original discussion was TK vs Hornet

There’s not much room for interpretation in either case

TK is just very clearly stronger than Hornet

[robust wagon]

I'd argue otherwise, in the case that this is both of them right before the true final bosses of each game, and a 1v1

[stray grove]

Prove yourself ready to face it. I'll not hold back. My needle is lethal and I'd feel no sadness in a weakling's demise.
TK beats Hornet with relative ease at her full strength in HK
If you’re claiming that Hornet has gotten substantially stronger during the events of SS that’s pretty baseless, she starts out in a significantly weakened state and isn’t shown to have gotten substantially stronger in any meaningful way, her upgrades are mainly tools and shit

[foggy fractal]

what is hornet gonna do against voidheart 💔 that everbloom ain't lasting long

[stray grove]

Even ignoring VH

TK easily beats Hornet at base, it also beats PV, Sly, Ogrim, and several other more powerful combatants

[foggy fractal]

go my shaman stone shade soul

[stray grove]

I’m sorry Hornet is cooked

[foggy fractal]

the knight is just built different

[robust wagon]

Cross stitch 🥀

[stray grove]

She has that in HK lol

Does fuck all

[robust wagon]

No the parry is different

[stray grove]

It doesn’t really matter a parry is a parry

[foggy fractal]

the knight just waits lmao!

[robust wagon]

One slash vs aoe

[stray grove]

Hornet’s SS upgrades are mostly inconsequential

[robust wagon]

I don't think they are

[stray grove]

She has more tools/spells in her arsenal that’s about it

TK is still much stronger and more durable

[robust wagon]

And her needle is upgraded a lot

[stray grove]

No actually

[robust wagon]

Hornet gets 10 masks, TK gets 9

[stray grove]

Her needle is restored to its original form

[stray grove]

HP values aren’t canon lol

[robust wagon]

Why do you think hornet is less durable then?

[stray grove]

Did you play the game

[foggy fractal]

tk equips unbreakable heart 11 masks!

[robust wagon]

'HP values aren't canon'

[robust wagon]

Shit

[stray grove]

They’re not canon no that’s not what I was referring to

[robust wagon]

Then what were you referring to

[stray grove]

TK has a more robust shell being the spawn of two pale beings rather than one, which was necessary for it to have the integrity required to constrain the shade
The shade being literally indestructible and approximating biology in such a way that enables TK to tank much more damaging blows than Hornet does in SS, like Ogrim’s attacks (which literally generate earth moving shockwaves), Sly’s, or Pure Vessel’s, and also giving it the strength to pulverize stone (as mentioned in Wanderer’s Journal)

And again TK literally beats Hornet when she’s going all out

Hornet isn’t even the strongest opponent TK faces in HK, far from it in fact

And it beats them all with relative ease

[robust wagon]

How tf are shades 'literally indestructible' 😭

[stray grove]

Void is indestructible

[robust wagon]

Not it isn't????

[stray grove]

Shades can’t be destroyed

[stray grove]

Yes it is

[robust wagon]

How???

[stray grove]

Everbloom might destroy it but that’s not clear and also not really relevant

[stray grove]

Did you play the game man

What happens when you hit a Shade

[robust wagon]

Omllll where are we getting this from

[robust wagon]

It goes back into your shell

[stray grove]

That interaction isn’t canon

I’m talking about the Siblings

The ones in the Abyss

The answer is they curl up into a ball and leave they’re not physically destroyed

[robust wagon]

I think it's a stretch to call that literally indestructible

[stray grove]

That is consistent with what we know about Void as a substance

[robust wagon]

It could be argued that void is destroyed by the everbloom, like in ETV delicate flower ending

[stray grove]

Everbloom doesn’t matter

[robust wagon]

Why not

😭

[spark valve]

early game knight beats hornet with early game abilities, mid game knight beats hornet with mid to endgame abilities, endgame knight absolutely stomps the shit out of any version of hornet

[stray grove]

And it probably isn’t destruction either

But even if it is and we give Hornet the Everbloom she’s not beating TK

[robust wagon]

Post silksong hornet

[spark valve]

gets stomped

[robust wagon]

Nuh uh

[stray grove]

Because when Hornet dips in the Void lake with the Everbloom the entire Void lake doesn’t disappear lmao

[foggy fractal]

also doesn't godseeker mode take place after p5 thus proving that the knight is fine

[spark valve]

the knight wouldn't even need voidheart stuff to defeat her

[stray grove]

I mean yeah it just stomps

Complete mismatch

[robust wagon]

It could be the non-everbloom version

[stray grove]

It doesn’t matter which it is TK is fine regardless

Even if the bloom destroys its body in that version of the ending it can’t die

[robust wagon]

Yeah I don't think this is getting anywhere. We just fundamentally disagree on stuff

[stray grove]

But we’re getting sidetracked

It’s not a case of disagreeing the game literally tells us TK is stronger

[foggy fractal]

everbloom is so weak dawg 😭 barely some time in the void and its gone you think its gonna do well against someone actively controlling it?

[robust wagon]

Omlll brother 😭🙏

[spark valve]

in ss hornet really doesn't get stronger than she was in hk she spends pretty much the whole game regaining her strength, whatever increase there is isn't that substantial and the knight continues to get stronger after the fight where it stomps her ass at full strength

[robust wagon]

This isn't going anywhere

Have a great rest of your day

[midnight reef]

A bit sad that the Bellhub got cut

[foggy fractal]

a bit sad that BUGPIPERS GOT CUT

:C

tc when I get my hands on you

[midnight reef]

Honestly, it is a bit sad that Strung to Serve got cut
It made GMS actively far more powerful than Hornet

[stray grove]

Strung to Serve was a cooler bad ending

I don’t think it’s that distinct from Weaver Queen though

One is Hornet successfully binding GMS gaining her power and turning evil
The other is Hornet unsuccessfully binding GMS who gets her power and going back to being evil

[midnight reef]

It is though, especially when placed within the gameplay context it had

[stray grove]

The gameplay context was just not clicking the button and the outcomes are identical

[midnight reef]

No

It wasnt

[spark valve]

songshrines being relevant would've also been cool but whatever they're the oldest parts of the citadel's system they're mostly redundant by now

[midnight reef]

Weaver Queen was phyiscally impossible without the help of the Weavers originally

[stray grove]

Me looking for the song magic

[midnight reef]

Hornet was completely uncapable of holding a candle to GMS normally, and only by ringing the bells, which channeled "the power from the lands below" would Hornet be able to beat GMS and bind her

And it wasnt just the 6 bells that exist now- there were more

There was one in the Gorge, and one in the Clover Grove

[stray grove]

Both WQ and STS are bad endings where a malicious being with the combined powers of GMS and Hornet takes control of Pharloom I assume that’s why the latter was cut
Hornet “beating” GMS in the former only to end up losing her will in the process is a pretty negligible distinction

[midnight reef]

Something along those lines

Within Silksoul, I dont much care as StS, Weaver Queen, Cursed, and Sister of the Void I can all get to work

[foggy fractal]

how about mr mushroom

[spark valve]

give the poor guy a break

[stray grove]

The cool thing about StS is GMS getting a Wyrm form that’s about it

[midnight reef]

StS, Cursed, and Weaver Queen are all the targets of Silksoul

Sister of the Void is only planned for Silksoul+, because as far as we are aware, it didnt exist until 2022

The idea of it almost certainly was made in ~2020, alongside with some EXTREMELY early abyss concepting, but both werent seeable on the map until 2022, afaik

[stray grove]

Wouldn’t it be funny it MM just spoke normally

[midnight reef]

Mr Mushroom IDK

[foggy fractal]

darn

https://tenor.com/view/walks-away-sad-leave-tom-and-jerry-gif-16877258

[stray grove]

Honestly I think they should’ve gone with StS instead of WQ as the bad ending

It makes more sense for GMS to win outright than for Hornet to bind her and then lose her identity

[midnight reef]

Weaver Queen made more sense in its original context

I dont think they'd have released the 2021 build of the game without figuring out Sister of the Void, though

[stray grove]

Even in the original context I’m not sure it was distinct enough from StS

[midnight reef]

Certainly, I dont deny that

[spark valve]

As dumb as it is hornet going evil is kind of an important part of the bad ending

[midnight reef]

But one thing that is good about StS is that it gives GMS an actual reason for capturing Hornet

[foggy fractal]

fighting against her nature and allat

[spark valve]

Just swapping sts and wq wouldn’t work

[foggy fractal]

pk is evil confirmed!

[stray grove]

I mean she always had a reason for capturing Hornet it’s the same reason she captured all the Weaver descendants

[midnight reef]

And that is..?

Theres no reason

[stray grove]

She needs silk

[midnight reef]

She is Silk

she doesnt need more of it

[stray grove]

But she does

We’re told that sustaining Lace requires a very large amount of silk, which GMS clearly doesn’t have

Just because she’s the primal source of it doesn’t mean she has an infinite supply, she’s been getting drained for generations and much of her lifeforce was handed down to her creations

[midnight reef]

Her Cocoon is a massive ball of Silk, and the Citadel is litterally full of Silk

[stray grove]

That’s exactly why she needs more

[midnight reef]

But where does the thing with Lace needing Silk to sustain?

[nimble parcel]

grand mother silk is weak and she needed the strength of weavers' offspring to regain power

[foggy fractal]

A bug born entirely of thread. Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless.

journal

[midnight reef]

Ahh

Okay, missed that

[spark valve]

It’s explicitly said a couple times hornet’s being captured for her silk

[midnight reef]

Once

[stray grove]

Also there’s a reason the cages in the cradle are empty

It’s mentioned a few times actually

[midnight reef]

And it was just Hornets guess, with the Seamstress agreeing

[spark valve]

Whether or not it makes sense for GMS to need it she clearly does

[stray grove]

She mentions it to Lace a couple times too

[nimble parcel]

she tells lace about it too

[spark valve]

‘I’ve denied my mother your silken strength’ or whatever

[stray grove]

She also mentions being attached to her silk in the citadel dialogue iirc

[midnight reef]

which also makes sense in the time where StS and Weaver Queen coexisted ;3

StS was only cut in 2023, iirc, well into Act 3s development

[foggy fractal]

Whatever its desire for my Silk and my shell, it shall find I'm quite attached to both. ?

[stray grove]

Yes but they could’ve kept WQ the same but made Hornet turn into the Wyrm thing from StS wouldn’t that have been cooler

[spark valve]

Is that about clawmaidens because that’s a different thing

[midnight reef]

I think that was refering to the Clawmaidens

[nimble parcel]

no she said that to lace about grand mother silk

[midnight reef]

But Silksong does have a few of some... weird issues in its lore and map from cut content

[foggy fractal]

Your kingdom is in the thrall of a creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste.
this is the line before

[stray grove]

No that’s about GMS

[midnight reef]

Ah okay

[foggy fractal]

you tell me if this creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste is a clawmaiden

[midnight reef]

I thought her Jorunal Entry for the Clawmaidens said something similar

[foggy fractal]

If given a chance, this one will steal Silk from any significant source, including my own shell.

[midnight reef]

My personal favorite is the opening cutscene, which has two issues in it ;3

1- the light from the Great Chasm is suspiciously blue

[foggy fractal]

why are you blue

[midnight reef]

2- ...where the hell are they bringing Hornet

[foggy fractal]

up up and away

[midnight reef]

You want to know what was just on the other side of the Shellwood Bridge originally?

...an Elevator, straight to the Grand Gate

I still think that GMS' want for Hornet is very poorly explained, when it was originally contextualized by GMS wanting Hornet directly for her power, and her being capable of binding Hornet

[stray grove]

idk I think that’s fine

She still wants her for her power (silken strength) and is still capable of binding her that’s presumably what she did to the other captured weaver descendants hence why those cages are empty

[midnight reef]

Its fine, but it doesnt make overly much sense, and the "they want her for the silk they have an infinite supply of" just doesnt make sense

[stray grove]

But she doesn’t have an infinite supply that’s the whole point

[foggy fractal]

if she had an infinite supply why did she die in the void? is she stupid?

[stray grove]

And it makes sense for GMS to be drained

[foggy fractal]

🤔

[midnight reef]

Unless GMS doesnt produce enough Silk to sustain Lace? So they were just running on borrowed time, breifly interpersed by eating Weavers?

[foggy fractal]

surely the void can't eat through infinite soul right?

unless?

void upscale?????????

[stray grove]

She doesn’t produce enough Silk hence why she is actively trying to procure more Silk from the descendants of the Weavers she originally gifted it to

[midnight reef]

Its infinite in the way that the soul in Kingsoul is infinite

[stray grove]

No

GMS is much weaker than PK

She doesn’t have infinite soul like he did

[midnight reef]

It makes no sense for the god of silk would be unable to produce it herself

considering- she made it herself to elevate the weavers

[foggy fractal]

well tc makes a lot of nonsensical decisions

ohhhhhhhhhh slabfly journal entries ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

👻

[midnight reef]

and the solution to that isnt to make nonsensical explainations

[stray grove]

She can produce it did you miss the part where she exhausted a large amount of silk to elevate the weavers
Or the part where she’s been getting drained for silk by the citadel for generations

[midnight reef]

when its more than often "TC was stupid"

[stray grove]

Nah TC left us a lot to complain about but this ain’t it

GMS needing more silk to sustain Lace is well established

[spark valve]

I mean not really it’s just the only explanation that’s even vaguely implied

[stray grove]

Correction, that she needs more silk is well established

Hornet mentions it several times and we’re told she hunted down other Weaver descendants for the same reasons and we even see their cages which are empty implying she bound them to herself

[spark valve]

yes

we know she wants more silk and there's a stated thing that would take a ton of silk it isn't that big a stretch to connect them

[stray grove]

But the reason for her needing more silk isn’t really the issue either

Even if it’s just so she can gain the strength necessary to awaken that’s fine

Irrespective of why she needed the silk it also makes sense for her to be weakened and hence incapable of producing a sufficient amount on her own

I just don’t think the criticism that it’s “nonsensical” makes a lot of sense

[midnight reef]

So
GMS Needs Silk
Because she cant make it..?

[stray grove]

She clearly can’t make enough no

[midnight reef]

Because shes not as strong as the PK?

[stray grove]

It’s very obvious that GMS is weakened

Whether or not she was as strong as PK is besides the point

[spark valve]

her wanting the silk would be less stupid than her just doing it to style on the weavers or whatever

[midnight reef]

Her wanting Silk is the only explaination for it left in the game

[stray grove]

The game literally tells us she wanted silk at several points

It makes perfect sense given the context

[spark valve]

it's certainly a bit goofy

[stray grove]

What’s goofy

[foggy fractal]

tuff goofy phone

[stray grove]

I don’t think it’s strange for GMS to be in a weakened state if that’s what you’re referring to

[spark valve]

the primal source of silk needing silk without any explicit acknowledgement or explanation is a choice

[midnight reef]

Which is why its a bit of a hole, that originally was filled by StS...

[spark valve]

that doesn't really explain it

[stray grove]

The primal source of silk which exhausted a large amount of silk to elevate the creatures who later betrayed it resulting in it being sealed and actively drained for several generations

[spark valve]

that's just her getting the silk

[midnight reef]

She wasnt binding Hornet for her Silk

she bound Hornet for her power, shes the daughter of a Wyrm

[spark valve]

I'm not saying that doesn't make sense I'm saying it could've been said somewhere

[stray grove]

Sure

[spark valve]

she was collecting weavers from across the world, hornet just had the most juice

[stray grove]

It could’ve been communicated a bit better but that doesn’t make it nonsensical

[spark valve]

I'm not sayin it's nonsensical I'm sayin it's goofy

[stray grove]

Yeah yeah you’re goofy pal

[foggy fractal]

I'm a goofy goober

[spark valve]

ok regent main

[stray grove]

Literally the coolest thing ever

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah they removed doormaker huh

[stray grove]

Reviewbomb moment

[spark valve]

fs in chat for the goat 🫡

[stray grove]

Its replacement is so ahh

[foggy fractal]

literally just one png isn't it

[stray grove]

tbf it’s probably unfinished

[spark valve]

it'll probably get better but for now it's rough

[stray grove]

It didn’t even have music until today

[foggy fractal]

damn fr?

[midnight reef]

anyways, another funny design inconsistancy in Silksong
Greymoor ;3

[spark valve]

what about it

[midnight reef]

The rocks- they're Baracles
why? The Sea of Sorrow was in the place of Verdania

Greymoor was originally right next to the Bay

[foggy fractal]

hey now maybe the barnacle god is somewhere along the z axis

🤫

[midnight reef]

XD

[spark valve]

you could still handwave it as like barnacle spawn washing down through the rocks and ending up there or whatever

[midnight reef]

Not really?

Baracles dont grow without water

[spark valve]

it's hollow knight

[foggy fractal]

well its a handwave anyway
best we could do 💔

[midnight reef]

it made more sense when Greymoor was right next to the Sea of Sorrow, and was flooded in its distant past

iirc a bunch of the Greymoor architecture shows flood walls/barriers

like it was commonly flooded from the nearby sea

[foggy fractal]

of sorrow?

[spark valve]

it still has constant downpours

[stray grove]

Yeah it’s a design inconsistency the same way we have remnants of Verdania on the wrong side of the map

But it can be handwaved

[midnight reef]

the random clover rosary rocks ;3

almost called them Geo Rocks because thats what they're called internally still

[foggy fractal]

Jcera you're making a silksoul mode yes?

[midnight reef]

Theres also the small Pendras in the Moss Grotto

Not mode, 2021 area mod

I just took the name of the mode, as it was described as a B-side to Silksong

[foggy fractal]

even better

[midnight reef]

which is the intention of Silksoul

[foggy fractal]

this will be fire!!!!!!!

[midnight reef]

;3

(This is an in-game screenshot, you might notice something different with the room)

[foggy fractal]

do you have a place where you put updates in the mod

like progress on it I meant

[midnight reef]

Not really, no

We're mostly focused on getting a Teaser trailer out rn

Though I can confirm that right now, theres only 1 room of the Mosslands (Moss Grotto, Bonebottom+Grave, and Mosshome) that we're yet to finish up

[foggy fractal]

I'm gonna have to pull out the blue emojis for this one

[midnight reef]

And getting a bunch of the tools for it done

WorldWeaver is being made by Vitaxses, and is going to basically be our WeaverCore, allowing for loading Unity catalogs into Silksong alongside offering replacement componets to base game ones where needed (so we can save to a custom save file, namely). And the catalogs' creation is being handled by a custom Addressables build mode made by Al3k1s

[foggy fractal]

awesome

[severe idol]

Lore

[sick tinsel]

the silksong is stronger than hornet

change my mind

[placid acorn]

well the silksong is just hornet but before silksong and hornet is stronger in silksong than hollow knight soo

[cedar beacon]

pablo is far stronger than both btw

[foggy stratus]

TROBBIO!

[fading shard]

that's a joke right

hornet at the end of act 3 isn't even at the level of a higher being

and weaver queen hornet is likely just a fairly stronger gms

Neither of which are comparable to the knight

especially with it being so powerful

[fading shard]

1. hallownest had four higher being in it's location two of them in the top 5 strongest beings in hollow knights universe in general

2. Hallownest is just stronger then the citadel/Pharloom

We got the sentries, the five great knights, whoever the christ are the other unknown to us heroes of hallownest

kingsmoulds

and unlike pharlooms citadel hallownests 'army" were actually trained to protect their people

the citadel didn't even have to do deal with any wars or great battles that we know of

[foggy stratus]

Arguably 5 if we include Lifeblood Beast(i dont to be clear)

[fading shard]

(something that can easily be changed)

[fading shard]

yo horf

[foggy stratus]

Yo.

[fading shard]

As ogrim mentions 3 great glories from the top of his head

and implies there were many others

that the kingdom faced

and we still don't know whatever the christ they are

Bsides we got the other tribes