sk-lore

[whole holly]

I gave my reasons, you guys gave your insults. If that's your idea of a lore discussion, I'm good. See ya!

personally, i believe that it would be nice to have world-building explained at it's core including mechanisms for World Sense and other Extrasensory perception/abilities present around different characters and categories of them we meet, we can infer depending of species that it revolves around essence, resonance, soul or even ability of species(Wyrm's Foresight) or higher beings and related/similar groups(World Sense)

[onyx pawn]

I'd want to get more of the other kingdoms involved.

[whole holly]

which is why bardoon is outlier, he is just ancient bug that knows about Nature/Effects/Mechanisms of Beacon, Void Heart, Infection. Bardoon proves just how deep his knowledge is, it can seem unexplainable and isn't easy to speculate about!

[paper mantle]

It's true, that ability is never fully explained

[whole holly]

i am glad to have enjoyable conversation now

[paper mantle]

Let's see, those who have world sense are TK, WL and HK (maybe)

The wyrms have future vision

[whole holly]

me as well, it's interesting how it differs but core function stays the same Steel Gaze, Silken Sight, Farsight, The Sight, Insight, World Sense, some of them are about internal or external senses but they all are metaphysical

[whole holly]

yea, but it would be nice to see mechanisms, it is fun to speculate on shaman and weaver abilities and make reliable synthesis based on it

[onyx pawn]

I wonder if the Farsight is a mechanical prototype of World Sense, our just a microwave telescope.

[whole holly]

i don't know but them being functionally same is really fun, it makes me think if Steel Gaze or Silken Sight are similar in how they function

[paper mantle]

Perhaps that's related to the fact that several HBs know each other?

[paper mantle]

You have images of telescope?

Oh...

[whole holly]

they seem to be able to sense each other, i wonder if knight can do same, void can sense soul (which may extend to pale being) but i wonder if they are capable of remotely perceiving other higher beings

[paper mantle]

Mm, let's see

[whole holly]

regular telescope? or farsight?

[random harbor]

Grimm - General - First Encounter

So, it was you who called us.
Well met, my friend. Well met. I am Grimm, master of this troupe.
The lantern has been lit, and your summons heeded. A fine stage you choose, this kingdom fallowed by worm and root, perfect earth upon which our Ritual shall take place.
And you, my friend. Your own part is far from over.
As the lantern flared your role was cast, our compact written in scarlet fire.
Eager we are to see you commence, but first, some illumination is required.
Across these lands my kin now spread, harvesting that essence peculiar to my... breed, the flame in dream.
Seek my kin; claim their flame and return it to me. Together, marvels shall be achieved.
But don't fret small one. For this task you won't travel alone. My child shall guide you to the flame and gather within itself that burning essence.
Like you, the child plays key role in this task. Only with it by your side will the flame, and my kin, reveal themselves to you.

@nostor_10. used /npcs quest name: Grimm category: General dialogue: First Encounter

[paper mantle]

@whole holly "Fallowed by worm and root"

[whole holly]

i wonder if Grimm's chart serves similar purposes

[paper mantle]

Don't those patterns remind you of something?
Hint: It's in Kingdom Edge

[onyx pawn]

Idk, ancient nails?

[whole holly]

Vitruvian Grub? i don't know i think Vitruvian Grub is close? other than King's Brand i dont recall anything

[whole holly]

which suggests abandoned? neglected?

[onyx pawn]

-# btw, can Grub Care Instructions be used as reliable lore material?

[paper mantle]

Nop

[whole holly]

they can find their way home, omg

[paper mantle]

I'm referring to the markings present on the Wyrm's egg

[whole holly]

that explains it, they have similar sense to farsight!

[onyx pawn]

Is it just my bad memory, or when you take King's Brand, the thing glows with those symbols?

[paper mantle]

I said that because perhaps Grimm senses the presence of the kings.

[whole holly]

yea but we made lore discovery grubs are confirmed to be able to find their way home and markings are similar to Farsight, maybe it is connected!

[paper mantle]

Idk

[whole holly]

yea, i just wanted to speculate on it

[paper mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/nahdog-gif-17900380376959797190

[whole holly]

they have magical abilities though, why is this surprising, their song has healing properties, speaking of which is there Pale Grub Higher Being! i think there could be! potentially

[paper mantle]

I don't see a connection between the grubs, the farsight, and the egg markings.

[onyx pawn]

Ah, found it

[paper mantle]

Yes!

[paper mantle]

The farsight and this are very similar

Maybe the farsight is inspired in a wyrm?

[onyx pawn]

Btw, is it confirmed that the Palestag is fr a pale being?
-# too weak for one imo

[paper mantle]

Pale Grub Higher Being? What are you talking about?

[paper mantle]

Is a Pale Being

[whole holly]

i believe farsight might be similar to how some irl species can view electromagnetic field of the earth, but equivalent electromagnetic force in HK universe is related to Essence, Rhythm, Resonance and Soul, i my opinion

[whole holly]

imagine if there was one!

[whole holly]

i agree but we don't see fully accurate form of palestag

[paper mantle]

[whole holly]

Extrasensory abilities of different characters in HK and SS
Foresight
Silken Sight
Insight
The Sight
World Sense
Farsight

[onyx pawn]

Ah yes. Hornet even mentions in the journal "has it existed just like I've seen it?" or smth

[paper mantle]

Just in case, which real-world caterpillar most resembles the caterpillars in HK?

[whole holly]

marmu? there are pretty diverse caterpillar species so, all of them can kind of fit somewhere

[whole holly]

Steel Master's Gaze

[whole holly]

do you guys know more??

[paper mantle]

No, not Marmu

The others

[onyx pawn]

You counted Mask Maker's vision?

[whole holly]

yea, it is The Sight

[paper mantle]

Silken sight? Insight? The sight? I'm lost, what was that?

[onyx pawn]

Idk, Moss Druid's hallucinations about Karmelita, Khann and Nyleth

[whole holly]

silken sight- gms

[paper mantle]

Oh, right

[whole holly]

insight - eva upgrades

[paper mantle]

Right

[whole holly]

the sight -mm's ability to see our mask

[paper mantle]

.

[onyx pawn]

-# I still wonder what Memory Lockets are...

[paper mantle]

-_-

[whole holly]

there are grubs

[paper mantle]

Yes, but what would its equivalent in real life?

[whole holly]

a green caterpillar

[paper mantle]

Thank you

[foggy stratus]

They seem to be some kind of charm that can hold memories, likely via an essence imprint.

[onyx pawn]

Sounds probable

[heavy gyro]

Grimm's scarlet eyes

[whole holly]

wait what? is that mentioned in some quote??

brumm mentions it nevermind

[frank dove]

What is silken sight

[whole holly]

Grand Mother Silk's sight

[frank dove]

Because insight is given to weavers by fayforn

Does that mean fayforn helped built farsight 🤔

[whole holly]

Eva also has Insight

[frank dove]

Where does it say that

[whole holly]

there is insight prompt when she asks to peer into you, most players don't notice i guess

[frank dove]

I think that's what 'the sight' is too

That means spiral eyes though right?

Where does it mention the sight in-game

[whole holly]

Mask Maker calls it that, i believe or hornet, in dialogue

[twin dragon]

Insight is another word for knowledge

[whole holly]

in eva's case it is Crest Sight

[twin dragon]

where does eva mention insight

in her dialogues

[whole holly]

prompt mentions it also wiki does to, likely based on game prompt, which is visible if you refuse

[twin dragon]

yeah insight into her nature

[whole holly]

what else do i call it?

[twin dragon]

Its not that eva has insight, it's the fact that insight is the word used to describe the fact that you let her know about your nature

[twin dragon]

Crestsight idfk

[whole holly]

is insight not fitting? do you have issue with it

[whole holly]

okay

[frank dove]

Could be what bardoon does

If he sees into you and sees voidheart

That is basically a crest

[foggy stratus]

Insight might just be soul sight which is what Eva has.(soul as in the metaphysical construct not the substance)

[onyx pawn]

Idk why, but I feel like it contains a chunk of gms

[foggy stratus]

Dude what?

Wait Fayforn or Farsight?

[onyx pawn]

Idk, maybe World-Sense-like abilities require power of Higher Beings

[foggy stratus]

Oh yeah that makes more sense.

[whole holly]

i am surprised Radiance isn't stated to have something similar or Unn, Mister Mushroom has something like it but i don't remember the name of it

[frank dove]

The sight?

He has spiral eyes

You can just only see them in cutscenes bc they're so small

[frank dove]

Don't mask makers see into your soul too? I agree with what you're saying, that's what I meant

Considering that is kind of what crests are

[foggy stratus]

I dont now about Mask Makers. I think they're all suffering a severe case of Eldtricth Madness after gazing upon the Game's Code.

[frank dove]

Yeah probably

[whole holly]

what does game's code say?

[foggy stratus]

A bunch of 0s and 1s.

Or random words.

[twin dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/spaghetti-gif-24457079

[foggy stratus]

Its a head canon I have that I like.

[foggy stratus]

Yeah this.

[whole holly]

lol

[random harbor]

Brumm - Distant Village - Listening while already having three Flames

Mrmm. You came.
You have gathered the flame and so the time for the ritual's completion is upon us. All you must do now is return to the Master...
Thus it goes, as it ever has. We are like the notes in an old, old song. You and me. Mrmm.
And yet... It is not merely by fortune that we meet here, in the darkest, furthest reaches of the world, where my Master's scarlet eyes can not see us.
Mrmm. A song that never ends... is no song at all.
You take part in the Ritual, yet I sense you truly have no Master. Is it so? Perhaps together we can banish that livid flame and let this dead Kingdom rest in peace.
If you wish to silence the endless song... Mrmm, meet me where it began...

@nostor_10. used /npcs quest name: Brumm category: Distant Village dialogue: Listening while already having three Flames

[foggy stratus]

Basically its that Mask Maker(s) somehow managed to see into the games code and realized what it was and what it meant and have ever since been trying to re-see it via masks and their mind maintaining properties.

[paper mantle]

@whole holly Here, the Master's scarlet eye

[whole holly]

Weavers evaded Silken Sight, Brumm escaped Scarlet Eye, what is with Deepnest being so weird

[whole holly]

thank you

[whole holly]

it is dark

[paper mantle]

[frank dove]

It is far

Same reason for literally every weavenest

If you look at their locations

All far from citadel

[foggy stratus]

Murglin is probably the closest. Being just about a stones throw away from Exhaust Organ.

[frank dove]

Aha there is an answer to that

Muckmaggots eat the silk

Simple

[foggy stratus]

Which would also pose a problem for the Weavers.

[frank dove]

Just realized, but isn't that the weavenest where they made tools for 'when their silk waned'

Obv silkshot costs some silk but still prob not a coincidence

[foggy stratus]

"When" meaning in the future.

Also yes.

[frank dove]

I think it meant whenever

They don't infinitely generate it

[foggy stratus]

Still implies the future.

[paper mantle]

By the way, what do you think godly resonance is?

[foggy stratus]

In the Godseekers' sense?

[whole holly]

it seems to correlate with essence and rhythms(in retrospect to silksong)

[whole holly]

doesn't this look like marmu?

[foggy stratus]

Ok, now show us the real bug.

[whole holly]

??

[foggy stratus]

That's just Marmu.

[whole holly]

yea, true this is irl version!

[foggy stratus]

Yeah that looks like Mamru.

[paper mantle]

Yes

[foggy stratus]

I think its just the aura or essence given off by large or strong creatures.

[fading shard]

the real deal

[paper mantle]

I was referring to the other grubs
Those who are imprisoned by the Collector

[whole holly]

oh, hey, didn't expect to see you

[fading shard]

greetings nick

horf and nostos

[foggy stratus]

Hi Abhiker.

[void cargo]

How is hornet such a lil bitch in hollow knight when she slaps everyones shit in silksong

[fading shard]

because she faces the knight?

who's like the strongest being we know of

(at the end of the game where it beats the radiance at least)

[fading shard]

besides hornet isn't that powerful

[paper mantle]

Hi, Ab

[paper mantle]

Thanks

[frank dove]

Looks like Brumm's accordion

[foggy stratus]

Hornet only a little bitch compared to The Knight. Shes like a top tier fighter otherwise.

[void cargo]

If hornet was at her silk song power level she should have been like the third hardest boss in the game

[foggy stratus]

She wasnt. And again TK is just that powerful.

[void cargo]

So unless she got way stronger over the course of the game she was going easy

[foggy stratus]

She got stronger.

Way stronger.

Yet still weaker than TK.

[void cargo]

Do we think the mask shards and stuff are cannon?

[foggy stratus]

Also the hardest three bosses in Hollow Knight are an actually God, a part of a God and something trained by a God. Hornet is not stronger than Radiance, NKG or Pure Vessel.

[foggy stratus]

They're canon, yeah.

[void cargo]

Hmmm PV and hornet should be close

I would think

[foggy stratus]

Pure Vessel has powerful soul magic and Void on its side.

Hallownest is pound for pound stronger than Pharloom. Land of Gods and all that.

Having like 3-4 native Higher Beings, another one that comes to that land specifically to make a Kingdom and a final one that passed through compared to Pharloom's single one is kinda telling ngl.

[whole holly]

that is true if Gods of thunder and rain are more than 2 in land of storms it will be interesting

[foggy stratus]

Like the only thing Pharloom has over Hallownest is technology and metallurgy, but even then the Hive seemingly has some damned good steel.

[craggy smelt]

hallownest had attained golem tech just prior to its fall
I wonder if it had lived, if it would approach pharloom in terms of construct making

[whole holly]

yea, Pharloom seemingly existed far longer than Hallownest

[void cargo]

GM silk isnt a higher being?

[whole holly]

she is, as well as pale being

[foggy stratus]

What makes you say that?

[sinful nimbus]

🥹 ❤️‍🩹🌹

[foggy stratus]

I mean she's a fraud but she isnt that much of a fraud.

[spark valve]

Primal source of silk
Looks inside
Has to steal it back

[sinful nimbus]

Should GMS get a tuff statue

Shows her weaving lace and everything

[foggy stratus]

She should get a tuff design that doesn't look like a flea brew bottle with arms and hair.

[whole holly]

lol, how are you so right?

[foggy stratus]

I'm very good at what I do.

[whole holly]

i feel like she has her prime form we need to access

[foggy stratus]

Elegy of the Deep should be moved to Act 2 so you can use it during Silk and Soul to enter Absolute Mother Silk fight. TC should hire me.

[twin dragon]

To enter old pharloom*

and get 2 act 3s fr

[void cargo]

a question not a statement sorry

[foggy stratus]

My question still stands why you think that?

[fading shard]

she's literally stated to be a higher being in her journal entry, most questions are answered in the hunter's journal man

[void cargo]

No Im asking this chat wether or not she is

I thought she was

[fading shard]

she's literally called a famothless being and divine, and is talked about as one of the divine kind by mask maker

I just sent several messages that confirm that she is a higher being

[modern bloom]

gfhjfghj

[graceful grail]

Is turning soul into silk a learnable skill?? Diddnt Seamstress say something about that

[spark valve]

no and no

[foggy stratus]

She said it was a rare skill.

[graceful grail]

Higher Being is a Status, right? not a inherited trait.

[foggy stratus]

Correct.

Despite Hornet being the child of a Higher Being and being a higher being, she isnt a Higher Being. Ya know?

[paper mantle]

"Child of a higher being and being a higher being"
I understand that she's someone's daughter, but I didn't understand the second part.

[sick tinsel]

Petition to ban TC from looking at scorpions

[foggy stratus]

I use higher being to refer to beings with intelligence and strong wills. Higher Beings are gods. Difference is what I'm capitalizing.

[kindred ingot]

she's a being, and she's higher, but she isn't a Higher Being

[kindred ingot]

wait what happened to scorpions

[sick tinsel]

I saw videos of scorpions hunting prey and am terrified

And I expect something harder than radiant markoth

[kindred ingot]

I have a scorpion oc, so I should check that out to make them as accurate as possible

I beg your pardon?

scorpions are made of metal now, I guess

[ember river]

Bait used to be believable

[ember river]

Technically bones are primarily made of metal, too, since Calcium is a metal

[kindred ingot]

yeah but that's iron they were talking about

[ember river]

It's zinc

[kindred ingot]

also iron

and manganese

[ember river]

Wait, "the way rebar reinforced concrete works"?
Doing that with iron should not be something an animal can do

[kindred ingot]

this is the whole paragraph

[ember river]

Yeah the rebar part is misleading, they probably just make a compound with the metals, which isn't all that strange

[kindred ingot]

yeah, true, but the sentence "scorpions use metal to enhance their claws and stingers" is still kinda scary

[paper mantle]

Thanks

[paper mantle]

[void cargo]

everyone keeps misinterpreting that

[kindred ingot]

yes, GMS is a Higher Being

not a usual one, but still one

[craggy smelt]

what even is 'usual' for higher beings

a slug, a patchwork heart full of fire, a root lady

weird stuff

[paper mantle]

I think he mean pale being

[kindred ingot]

most Higher Beings have a significant connection to Essence

GMS is the only one with a "weaker" connection

[paper mantle]

And the Gods of Storm

[kindred ingot]

we're not even sure if those are Higher Beings

Godseeker is very generous with her definition of "God"

and even then, considering they have a connection with Godseeker who has a connection with Essence, they probably have something to do with Essence

[craggy smelt]

even that is difficult to ascertain - we don't see the usual dreamcatcher particles, but her abilities with silk and ensnaring minds into a whole is pretty Essence-y
related to minds, thoughts, memories, etc.

i think it's a safe bet she has something, the other pale beings do

[kindred ingot]

memories are basically dreams, and memories are made with Silk

[kindred ingot]

Palestag doesn't seem to have

[craggy smelt]

I was thinking more ones like PK and WL
I don't even think Palestag is a true pale being, the line 'stag touched pale' makes me think more like some creature that was somehow invested by some of their power
maybe similar to how pale ore has 'a connection with pale beings'

[exotic pendant]

chat is this confirmation that soul is dreams

[kindred ingot]

no

[exotic pendant]

I'm jk/

[kindred ingot]

that'd make sense, considering that there probably was another Pale Being in the first stages of Pharloom's history

[edgy nebula]

there isnt much of a reason for essence to appear in silksong cause hornet never acquires a dream nail and thus cant access dreams or essence

that doesnt mean gms outright doesnt have access to essence though

[paper mantle]

True

[calm roost]

Btw didnt God seeker come from the land of storm but passed through the top of pharloom on his way to hallanest because it the rare precent chance to see the godseeker memories we see a chest like thingy and him inna cave like structure and if you collect the thingy the dream ends this exact same cave can be found on the top of pharloom after doing the easy path of pain

[cyan hollow]

Path of minor inconvenience

[craggy smelt]

the two caves do like alike, but the surrounding area is completely different - there's no spikes in the Godseeker Memory area, for ex.
it's more likely that TC just used the Godseeker cave as a starting point for building Pharloom's surface to save time

(and drive many of us to madness with the implications)

[dire lynx]

look similar, but they are not the same

would be really funny if they were though, since it would mean that simply pk's afterglow was enough to drown out a living gms' own divinity

[ember river]

Memories are not made with silk

Also, Pale Beings hold much greater of a connection to soul than to essence, and that is also true for GMS

[naive pine]

Was Pharloom unaffected by the Radiance?

It seems like it wasn’t spread there

[stark ocean]

pharloom was too phar away from hallownest to be affected by the radiance

also by the time hornet got to pharloom the radiance is already dead

[naive pine]

Well yeah, she helps in the fight against the Hollow Knight

It’s kind of a given that the Radiance would be dead

[craggy smelt]

too phar for the Radiance to loom over it ha haaah~

[ember river]

The radiance's domain was Hallownest, the infection didn't go past it

[fading shard]

?

you're born divine though as a higher being

it's something in ones blood

[twin dragon]

Nope

Being a hb isnt hereditary

as far as we've seen

[fading shard]

nubbie with respect hornet is categorised as a pale being and as a higher being

[twin dragon]

pale being, not hb

Tk isnt a hb either till they obtain the voidheart

[fading shard]

they are literally said to be born of god and void

idk what you're talking about

[twin dragon]

But they aren't god themselves

💔

[fading shard]

she literally get's grouped up with higher beings by mask maker

as her being of the higher caste "the ancient beings"

to her divine blood

and no he wasn't referring to the weavers

because he mentions them seperately

and mentions that they were the ones that tried to do a rebellion against those of her ancient kind

so idk what you're talking about

[twin dragon]

She's also above mortal bugs but nowhere near higher being level

The weavers are also the "higher caste"

but they're obviously not hbs

No he was also referring with the weavers

enough for them to be considered also special

[fading shard]

no he wasn't?

he specifically seperated the weavers from those of the ancient kind

idk what you're talking about

[fading shard]

they pretend to be of higher caste

the entire point is that they pretended to be like their mother

while the truth was that they weren't divine

hornets mortal side is literally referred to her weaver side

so idk what you're saying

[twin dragon]

Brother finishes all of his points with "idk what you're saying"

[twin dragon]

yeah but they were still above the other bugs

[twin dragon]

Ancient kind are the wyrms and stuff

likely

Hornet is part wyrm and shares their desires

but that doesnt make her a hb

[fading shard]

he literally refers to gms as a ancient being

wdym

"Ha! As I'd have guessed! Your ancient kind aren't told to abide one another peaceably."

[twin dragon]

If he refers to gms why would he not mention weavers aswell

[fading shard]

he literally states that the weavers were the ones making a rebellion against her ancient kind

He literally seperates them nubbie T_T

"Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all."

he refers to her weaver side as her ancestors

and her higher being side as the ancient kind

[twin dragon]

yeah mask maker's talking about hbs as a whole

But that doesnt really make hornet a hb does it

[fading shard]

then why would he refer to her as one

[twin dragon]

Like you've got direct evidence that becoming a hb isnt something that happens at birth

[fading shard]

calling her oneo f them

[twin dragon]

She's as close to a hb as one can get but not rlly a hb

because yk part hb and stuff

Hornet isn't really comparable to any hb too

she cant do any crazys hit

[fading shard]

yes I am aware that she isn't anywhere close to a higher being in power

she can't even deal with ones essence or crest I guess

[twin dragon]

Yeah

if she binds gms, gms is basically reborn in part

[fading shard]

exactly

[fading shard]

she isn't a higher being because she's part mortal

the game acknowledges her mortal and divine parts

[twin dragon]

yeah

i agree

what are we arguing

[fading shard]

I actually don't know friend

o-o

[fading shard]

btw uhh isn't this more debating

I don't feel any hostilities for this to be a argument

also I do hope that when we engage in such discussions and disagree with one another that you don't form negative opinions on my person

[twin dragon]

No im js wondering what we're arguing

if we both know that hornet isnt really a hb

[fading shard]

that higher beings are divine by nature

and to become a higher being whilst not being one is something done in very specific particular situations

like greyroot

[twin dragon]

Greyroot is very ambiguous on that end but hornet becomes one in weaver queen

[fading shard]

agreed

[fading shard]

okay here's a thought how would silksong mask maker react to the pale king

[twin dragon]

He'd likely comment on his restraint

on just not nuking everyone

but at the same time scold him at the fact that he's still similar in nature and can't help himself to become a ruler

[fading shard]

what I'm most interested is how he'd react to the pale king being with the white lady

as the mask maker seems to believe that all higher beings have a nature of clashing with one another

[twin dragon]

I'd say thats part of his restraint

Pk also shares space with other hbs

[wet gull]

Sk lore is lore

[sick tinsel]

no way

[fading shard]

really?

[strange cipher]

Xd

[hard widget]

Haha

Hornet’s a silkwyrm

[odd iron]

Demigod

[kindred ingot]

technically she's a full god, more like a demi Higher Being

[odd iron]

Half wyrm(god) half weaver(not god) =half god?

[kindred ingot]

the term "god" means a different thing in HK

it basically means "something way more powerful than a normal bug"

[fading shard]

she's a demigod

[fading shard]

that's not the case sashimi

that's literally not the case

the term god always meant well what we deem "god"

the point of godhome

[kindred ingot]

according to Godseeker, it kinda is

[fading shard]

was them trying to find an actual god

[fading shard]

The entire point was that they were trying to find an actual god

they literally had a statue of a random vengefly in the backround of the hall of gods

and a regular gruzzmother

literally a sentry could them

[fading shard]

so this term doesn't make sense

when a trained soldier could take them down

[fading shard]

the entire point was that they were looking for proper gods

not that the massive mosscharger of gruzzmother were actual gods

They literally get called bugs

[fading shard]

in fact sashimi we literally get to pantheon 5 in which we actually have the godseeker speaking to proper gods

Unn, pale king, white lady, and then the radiance

there's like a whole very specific section of pantheon 5 dedicated for that exact purpose

[whole holly]

Father of the Flame is a god but not a Higher Being, it makes sense term is relative to bugs and beasts

[fading shard]

their literally called a totem

that was made

[kindred ingot]

then I was completely and utterly wrong

[fading shard]

I get they also mention it being totem and god

[whole holly]

Totem AND God

[fading shard]

But I'm pretty sure it's meant to be a makeshift god

[fading shard]

nick I already said that

here

I said this here nick

[fading shard]

you didn't have to type this out

[whole holly]

which aren't mutually exclusive in any way,nor does it change anything

[fading shard]

it's literally makeshift

[whole holly]

i still needed to empathize word 'AND'

[whole holly]

so what?

[fading shard]

"built and worshipped by the Burning Bugs."

it's literally said to contain the ashes of an aged bug

"The remains of an aged bug were housed at the pyre's heart. The structure suggested they wished for immolation"

[whole holly]

how does it change it's godhood status, it doesn't at all, it any way shape or form

[whole holly]

i know but it's irrelevant to godhood status, you are literally fighting the words game uses, Abhiker

[lone folio]

If this is a god then fourth chorus is the god of gods

[fading shard]

I am fighting the game

Because it's stupid

[whole holly]

sure, but you can't change it

[fading shard]

I will because it goes against everything we know about "gods"

we literally get told it's about divinity

and nature

[whole holly]

Fourth Chorus doesn't release magical flame that burns silk

[fading shard]

it's something they are born with

In ones nature

[fading shard]

we get this confirmed in both silksong and hollow knight

[fading shard]

so this thing just goes against the games message

[lone folio]

Fair enough

[whole holly]

Higher Being and God are separate but not mutually exclusive terms! God means "being with power", Higher Being means "being above all others" Abhiker

[fading shard]

I swear this game is so inconsistent with stuff

it uses higher beings for the kings pass lore tablets the use it by the term we use for god gods

[whole holly]

no, you just don't understand it

[whole holly]

God of Gods would be equivalent to Higher Being, also God is relative term, Higher Being can absolutely can be a God, Father of the Flame is called a god with lowercase g

[fading shard]

I didn't say god of gods

I said god gods as in like actual gods

[near jasper]

Whats the topic rn

[fading shard]

the knight is literally said to born of god and void and in that context

it's referring to actual godhood

and beings like the pale king

or the radiance

[whole holly]

i think others Gods(actually Higher Beings) are referred with uppercase G most of time, that i know of

[fading shard]

huh now that you mention it

[whole holly]

Abhiker, God and Higher Being as terms are mutually exclusive either

[lone folio]

Shade lord is called "god of gods" and it doesn't seem very equal to other higher beings

[whole holly]

wdym? equal? who said they all have to equal?

[whole holly]

i get that, God of Gods is still relevant term, Abhiker

[whole holly]

this wasn't necessary

[fading shard]

it is the strongest being that we know of

though I will keep pointing out that it's different and more complete like the masters or well the shade lord not void given focus

[hard widget]

Yeah the void is known as the force that will claim all things so the god of gods is naturally the one that will eventually subdue all others

[whole holly]

Abhiker, i am glad you realize!

[hard widget]

Yeah gods are merely entities worshipped by bugs (see godhome) while higher beings are eldritch forces that exist on a different level of power and cosmic knowledge from mortal bugs

[lone folio]

Yeah but nick said that a god of gods is something that's just equal to a higher being. Shade lord doesn't seem like much of an equal compared to the other higher beings, Nick said it as if that title describes something that is just as powerful as any other higher being

[hard widget]

Yeah that’s not true at all

The God of Gods would be the height of the godseeker’s pantheon

[fading shard]

no but seriously in the hall of gods all the non gods have a lowercase g while hornet and the nightmare heart get a big G

[fading shard]

but then there's entries like with great nail sage sly

[whole holly]

that's great, what about Knight in hall of gods? after beating every boss on attuned?

[fading shard]

where god get's a uppercase G

[lone folio]

Im going to have a seizure because of the godseekers

[fading shard]

idk why in the hall of gods they make such a detail

[hard widget]

Void given form and void given focus right?

[fading shard]

but then the hunter's journal that's just thrown out the window

[hard widget]

Wait which one

[fading shard]

great nail sage sly

[hard widget]

Like which entry

[fading shard]

that one has an upper case G

[whole holly]

that's for ascended and radiant difficulty

[fading shard]

also paint master sheo

[hard widget]

Yeah the first one is just the godseeker’s initial appraisal of the knight

[fading shard]

I mean it just states it's neither BUG, BEAST or GOD

[whole holly]

yea but is it uppercase or lowercase ??

[fading shard]

all of them are uppercase

in that instance

[whole holly]

you are right, Abhiker!

[fading shard]

but that's the case for void given form and void given focus as well

[whole holly]

i hope we get City of Steel DLC after Sea of Sorrows, i want beat shit out Lifeblood Beast, Gods of Thunder and Rain, Steel Masters!

Volt Filament should end them all!

[hard widget]

I’m terrified of a steel soul exclusive dlc

[void cargo]

What kind of bug are the conductors??

[fading shard]

the gods of thunder and rain are dead though

[whole holly]

Elegy of the Deep

[fading shard]

so we're going from pharloom to completely different "continents"

[whole holly]

it's unlikely to be steel soul exclusively

[hard widget]

That’s something they’d plan and be forced to throw out

[fading shard]

because the city of steel and land of storms

are in very distinct areas

soo yeah

[whole holly]

i assume/hope Land of Storms is right near Pharloom Bay

[hard widget]

It’s an easy enough assumption to make

[fading shard]

that's a very nice headcanon but what if it isn't

and it's like hallownest and pharloom it's own stronghold of life in between the long stretching wastes

[whole holly]

it doesn't matter too much

[fading shard]

Wouldn't hornet not be capable of going there if it was far away

because atp wouldn't she just make a visit to hallownest

I mean if we're going to the city of steel and land of storms might as well visit home

[hard widget]

She would need a reason to go home

[knotty prism]

that doesn't make sense to me

[hard widget]

If she encounters the land of storms it would be for some objective likely related to pharloom bay if the two are close

[knotty prism]

its implied that pharloom is way older than hallownest

[hard widget]

The city of steel seems to have some power over creatures like Hornet especially since they staked a weaver to service

[whole holly]

so what?

[knotty prism]

why couldnt the godseekers just seek the gods of pharloom

[whole holly]

she has no reason to

[hard widget]

Because they attuned to the pale kings beacon in the waste instead of slumbering silk

[knotty prism]

instead of going all the way to hallownest

[knotty prism]

i guess that makes sense

[fading shard]

there's literally just gms

[knotty prism]

ture but the consider the king vengeflys to be gods

[hard widget]

Well their definition of gods is just powerful beings, not just higher beings

[knotty prism]

so why not the savage beastfly

or etc.

[fading shard]

they specifically state that they were looking for beings such as the pale king

they literally were drawn in by the pale kings pure aura of power dragon ball z style

[knotty prism]

gruz mothers and king vengeflys are considered to be gods by them

even the fucking massive moss charger

[whole holly]

i assume because of leaked submarine Land of Storms and Pharloom aren't accessible through those locations

[knotty prism]

so i dont see why pharloom wouldn't be a good place for them to seek gods

and im pretty sure they use the memories of gods no?

[hard widget]

It makes sense why they went to hallownest over pharloom then because PK had been broadcasting his kingdom as a light in the dark while silk had been sealed

Also we don’t know what the wastes even look like so all of this could be irrelevant

[knotty prism]

so they could have atuned with the three old hearts

[fading shard]

I don't even think he was doing this intentionally

especially when it was his AFTEGLOW

that got their attention

[hard widget]

Well he’d been loooong dead

[fading shard]

like my god imagine how powerful that must have been while he was alive

[hard widget]

By the time the godseekers picked him up

[fading shard]

probably could sense his pure aura

[knotty prism]

i think it was

[fading shard]

from the edge of the universe

[knotty prism]

wyrms create civilizarions

[hard widget]

He was doing it intentionally but he died and his kingdom was fading but even then it was strong enough for godseeker to pick up

[knotty prism]

not to mention the ''pilgrim's way'' in hallownest

[whole holly]

likely because of Land of Storms and Pharloom aren't accessible through those locations, godseekers seemingly passed nameless village in tuner memory

[fading shard]

that's again pure speculation

[whole holly]

they look identical!!!!

[fading shard]

they don't

they literally don't

[knotty prism]

if you think about it, the entire world outside of hallownest and pharloom looks identical

just an endless desert

[whole holly]

they look like they share same unique markers down to details

[fading shard]

???

[knotty prism]

it just wouldnt make sense

[fading shard]

this?

they don't eve have the same color pallette for the stones

[fading shard]

you realize you can go further right

in that godseeker memory

which looks distinctly completely different

[fading shard]

like yes these two look nearly identical

but then you go right

[knotty prism]

they really dont

[fading shard]

and BAM

doesn't look aliek

[heavy gyro]

they do what

[knotty prism]

ughhh this a total mind fuck

[whole holly]

they both have identically shaped spikes, other differences can be explained by passage of time

[heavy gyro]

that place in particular is pretty much identical

the rest not so much

[knotty prism]

the thing that bothers me is....

[foggy stratus]

Or the process of settlement.

[whole holly]

i assume it is because of timeline

[fading shard]

that's the only location which looks simillar

the rest doesn't

[whole holly]

those are key locations, brochacho

[knotty prism]

why would they travel to hallownest instead of pharloom if they were right above it?

[heavy gyro]

PK has more aura than gms

[fading shard]

https://youtu.be/wETPiXZyOTU?si=B0L_abCgnI5TPVEe

look at what the right looks like

[heavy gyro]

And hallownest has like 5 higher beings

[fading shard]

different

it looks diffent

[heavy gyro]

Compared to pharloom's 1

[knotty prism]

but the godseekers arent just looking for higher beings

i mean

[fading shard]

stop ignoring the right side of the memory nika

[whole holly]

there are too much coincidences like Sea of Sorrows and land of storms, we see nautical and thunder theming which matches their gods

[fading shard]

they are looking for higher beings

they literally are

[knotty prism]

they literally consider the massive mosscharger to be a ''god''

[fading shard]

the entire point was that they were looking for higher beings like the pale king

and the radiance

[knotty prism]

this is a total mind fuck

[fading shard]

Watch this

[foggy stratus]

They smellt PK's lingering beacon and went towards it.

[whole holly]

i am not ignoring it they look similar to thumbnail!!

[knotty prism]

i think the one with the godtuner has a longer tunnel

[fading shard]

well then wtf is the rightside of it look so completely different to theese two

Literally

[knotty prism]

and there are no signs of the multiple discarded godtuners

[foggy stratus]

Passage of time and the process of Settlement can vastly alter a region.

[fading shard]

you do realize

horf

[knotty prism]

fuck it i give up

[whole holly]

their Gods of thunder and rain died and they couldn't attune their minds to it, tuner device is blocking one shortcut and Grand Mother Silk would be sealed then, and it makes sense if Godseeker's couldn't sense sleeping god as easily, when they were actively following Pale King's Beacon/Afterglow

[knotty prism]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/283680756159741953/1498459971610873937/v24044gl0000d7jutd7og65tts9mkg6g_1.gif

[heavy gyro]

Tbh the similarities gotta be intentional because why would TC reuse assets when they are known for taking as much time as needed and redesigning entire areas

[fading shard]

that literally doesn't add up

timeline wise

[knotty prism]

that actually makes sense

you make a valid point

[fading shard]

the godseekers were following the pale kings afterglow

that freaking settlement would have been long dead

especially since the needolin dialogue states

that they were all drawn down

[knotty prism]

pharloom is probably older than hallownest as well

[whole holly]

they aren't reusing assets though, they literally redrew same place with identical features and details

[fading shard]

you're literally coping by the fact that the place would have already been there

and would have been destroyed

They literally got seduced by the weaving ones quote on quote

to go down

[whole holly]

they are because Weavers escaped to Hallownest and Pale King unified Hallownest around the same time, Citadel was functioning far longer than Hallownest

[fading shard]

last I checked the pale kings after glow nika

[whole holly]

????

[knotty prism]

which is eactly why this cant be the same location

[fading shard]

was after the citadel was going to crap

[knotty prism]

surface village is older than pharloom

[fading shard]

that is actually true

[knotty prism]

which is older then hallownest

[fading shard]

are you telling me that the village just magically vanished nika when godseeker showed up

and then magically showed up again

the moment hornet appeared

are you telling me the very atoms reformed?

[knotty prism]

if the godseekers went looking after the pale kings death, the timeline completely shatters

[fading shard]

they did as it is his after glow that brought them there

[knotty prism]

yes

which is why it cant be the same location

it does not add up

[whole holly]

Surface Village is older than citadel! not Pharloom, Weavers lured residents! and they later escaped to Hallownest! Pale King established Hallownest as kingdom and when Godseeker's were following his Afterglow when Surface Village would have been empty, plus it is Godseeker's memory it doesn't have to be fully accurate and explorable, only specific details around tuner device in memory are relevant to lore! because team cherry redrew same details for Surface Village!

[fading shard]

............

you're just

ignoring key details here

and coping

[whole holly]

abhiker, you are being insulting and dismissive!

[heavy gyro]

You cant go far enough right to see where the settlements would be in godseeker memory

[fading shard]

the entile landscape

looks different in the godseekers memory

and the surface

[fading shard]

Watch this

and then this https://youtu.be/NdbnwaC6_yo?si=oe7BMn-laiLsDm1O

you can quite literally see that the terrain is completely different

[hard widget]

Yeah if anything the surface looks like kings pass

[fading shard]

it's around the same length

[whole holly]

a is still right it's dark and undetailed

[fading shard]

where are the gignatic spikes nika

there are spikes

[knotty prism]

which, obviously, cannot be true

[whole holly]

and not to mention this is pretty close to where device is!

not too far

[fading shard]

nika

[hard widget]

Pharloom surface does not equal kings pass but the surface of the world likely looks like that across most of the world

[knotty prism]

exactly

speaking of which

[whole holly]

erosion happens abhiker!!! key details match abhiker!!!!

[hard widget]

So pharloom bay and the land of storms arent necessarily the same area when one waste looks very similar to anh other waste

[knotty prism]

i heard a theory that the surface world is a dried up ocean

[whole holly]

Tuner Device matching is not coincidence!!!!

[fading shard]

ahuh yeah

actually let me crop that

[knotty prism]

oh thats the smoking gun

theres no way its the same area

the spikes are missing

[hard widget]

That’d be unsurprising. And actually gives a lot of credence to void being essentially crude oil lmao

[knotty prism]

that cant be true, due to the lack of the US military anywhere near hallownest or pharloom

[whole holly]

it's also not only memory of different time, but also memories don't always retain details like spikes, Coral area changed fast to Sands of Karak Abhiker!!! due to sand and wind!!!

[fading shard]

god I gotta remember to crop these

[knotty prism]

also, the amenite like shells in the walls everywhere provide more merit to this idea

[fading shard]

where's the elevation then?

We see distinctly a good elevation to it

[knotty prism]

the blue lake and the sea of sorrow could be remnants of that

[hard widget]

The pale king is symbolic of the United States of America because of how they harnessed void to maintain their kingdom despite the immense danger and questionable means

[fading shard]

while in the goddseeker memory

it's a very simple same cross road

[twin dragon]

Twin we're not interacting with the land of storms

tc forgot about it 466 years ago

[knotty prism]

like 2 showers ago

[whole holly]

erosion, abhiker, erosion can create elevation!!

[whole holly]

it's intensified to be spikes and elevation over time!!!

[knotty prism]

bruh

i feel like team cherry would have made it the same so we could make the connection

but they did not

[whole holly]

Coral Gorge literally changed to Sands of karak, how is this surprising! it also matches the direction wind and sands flow!

[whole holly]

they wanted subtle connection

[fading shard]

Quite the difference nika

[whole holly]

i already said erosion abhiker

[knotty prism]

theres also no entrance pillars in the god tuner memory

[whole holly]

Sands of karak and coral gorge are also quite different, abhiker!!

[fading shard]

thatm akes no sense

[fading shard]

yeah but this is the bloody surface nika

the wastes

[whole holly]

why there are different kinds of it!!!

[fading shard]

because of the water drying up

[whole holly]

doesn't mean it has to stay the same!!!

[fading shard]

there's no water in either of the two

[fading shard]

Do you see any water that got dried up nika no??

then no bloody correlation

[whole holly]

that's not only type of erosion abhiker! sands and wind can cause erosion

[whole holly]

water is not only thing that can cause erosion!

[knotty prism]

why am i reading this like some kind of high school anime conversation

[fading shard]

the sands of karak look the way they do because the water dried up

[whole holly]

idk, why are you?

[fading shard]

LITERALLY

[hard widget]

That’s what fandom servers are

[whole holly]

and wind and sand too! which is stated! abhiker you are fighting game logic at this point

[knotty prism]

i see

[hard widget]

A bunch of predominantly teenagers arguing over their opinions about a given piece of fiction

[knotty prism]

exclamartion points probably

[knotty prism]

anybody got that one truth nuke gif?

[whole holly]

i can't get it through his head

[fading shard]

now that's an insult

[hard widget]

https://tenor.com/view/truth-nuke-wojak-soyjak-soy-jak-truth-gif-10540901418861964264

[fading shard]

I never insulted your senses nika

[knotty prism]

i wanted the one with the walter white gif but this will do

[fading shard]

so idk why you have the gull to do the same

[whole holly]

how is that insult! i am just stating that i haven't been able to convince you

[fading shard]

then say that instead

[whole holly]

they mean same thing, though

[fading shard]

it just feels different yk ;-;

[knotty prism]

''h-how could you not understand that, baka!'' ahh chat

[hard widget]

Abhiker is notoriously hard to sway though I agree with him for this case

[fading shard]

?

[knotty prism]

https://tenor.com/view/truth-nuke-wojak-soyjak-soy-jak-truth-gif-10540901418861964264

[fading shard]

I've been swayed many times before

[fading shard]

micolouro we haven't conversed all that much before so I don't understand why you're stating it to be a truth nuke

[whole holly]

none of us has witnessed it in our lifetimes

[knotty prism]

i just wanted an excuse to use this

[hard widget]

Lmao

[fading shard]

it's been done by apple egg

[fading shard]

you haven't accomplished that a single time though

[calm roost]

There was a time spread because God seeker is likely very old and the evident could've very well changed i think there's a video on this so you can check that out

[whole holly]

he isn't here

[knotty prism]

jesus christ i feel like i stumbled onto a war zone

holy shit

[fading shard]

it's been accomplished by horf

[whole holly]

because that's not my goal? i only want to speculate and have fun

[knotty prism]

i uhh think we lost the plot

[fading shard]

I never said it was

[fading shard]

I was just responding to this

I apologies if I didn't make that clear enough

[knotty prism]

guys its just a theory discussion calm down

[whole holly]

then your statement is irrelevant and condescending for no reason : 'you haven't accomplished that a single time though'

[whole holly]

i wish everyone understood that, this is just lore channel, not anything serious

[fading shard]

man I really must suck at reading the room because I cannot see how we aren't being calm

[fading shard]

I'm being serious

I am notoriously terrible at it

[fading shard]

I just said that as to explain why you haven't seen it ;-;

I waasn't trying to be in anyway condescending or insulting

[whole holly]

this was dismissive, you didn't have to say anything like that, especially about lore

[fading shard]

I don't see how it is

[whole holly]

I get that you might not intend to be mean, but saying someone is 'ignoring details' and 'coping' is literally being dismissive. It stops being about the game and starts being about why you think my brain isn't working right.

[fading shard]

I never said your brain isn't working

you're an intelligient individual

[whole holly]

I know you didn't literally say that, but that's what 'coping' and 'ignoring details' mean in a debate. It’s a way of saying someone’s logic isn't valid without actually proving them wrong with facts.

[fading shard]

and you'd sooner see me dead then seeing me say something so insulting about ones intellect

[hard widget]

You called me media illiterate

[fading shard]

when

[fading shard]

oh you're wretcehd

[whole holly]

thanks, so are you! we just disagree sometimes, even in academic and intellectual circles it happens

[foggy stratus]

Are we still on Nameless Town=Godtuner memory thing? Or something different?

[hard widget]

Yeah the name is from an old pfp I had that I forgot to change

[whole holly]

i want to skip to something different! got a topic?

[fading shard]

"Media illiteracy is the inability to critically access, analyze, evaluate, and create media messages, often leading to the passive consumption of information without questioning" okay yeah I did not realize that's what it meant

that's on me

[fading shard]

I went to the dictionary

to check if I was in the wrong or not for saying so and yeah I was

[fading shard]

did not realize it meant that

[foggy stratus]

The Hunter would be an Old Heart if he settled down in an area.

[fading shard]

I was trying to say that it seemed that you struggled to get hollow knights story

[hard widget]

Yeah media illiterate doesn’t mean that I’m wrong becuase I disagree with you. It means I’d be wrong because I am unable to critically analyze the story

[whole holly]

interesting, can you elaborate on reasoning?

[fading shard]

nothing regarding you being incapable of critical thought or analysis

nothing regarding you being incapable of critical thought or analysis

[hard widget]

And I was saying that I disagree with the foundation of your interpretation of hollow knight’s story

[foggy stratus]

He seems to passively alter his surroundings, given the odd spike things near where we find him, he's be very intune with the environment regardless and he's already a fairly powerful mortal.

[fading shard]

didn't literally everybody agree with me

in that conversation

[fading shard]

even in the said screenshot

every single individual was arguing against you

I was just one of those said people

[whole holly]

i actually love old hearts, and your theory is interesting horf! hunter being one would be interesting, given that Karmelita was supposed to be hunter queen karm

[hard widget]

Yeah it was like 4v1 and we covered a lot of ground

I still think I’m right ofc

[foggy stratus]

What is it you think?

[hard widget]

We covered a lot of points in that convo

That screenshot is part of our discussion about the morality of the pale king

[fading shard]

like wasn't star, nubbie, apple egg, shadax and tanmo

[fading shard]

didn't people literally disprove your points

Like I'm not saying I did

[hard widget]

Some of them but that was more the Silksong act 3 stuff

[fading shard]

by any means

[hard widget]

Which I conceded

[fading shard]

But I'm pretty sure everybody were throwing a bunch of points how this and that isn't true about the pale king

[hard widget]

Wait yeah ur right

Here’s like the middle of the convo

[foggy stratus]

[fading shard]

oh no wretched I think horf is going to argue against you now

[hard widget]

And I’ve come around a bit. The pale king was better at using the carrot than the stick and generally got away with ruling all of hallownest without the same level of violent expansion silk did

[whole holly]

hornet seems to hate PK, fandom loves him, i am not sure if he is truly a good or bad guy, i assume he was neglectful to hornet and vessels but... i don't think he was bad king

[fading shard]

correction hornet hates the pale king, his wife and his subjects loved him

also foreignors

[foggy stratus]

There's no proof he ever subjagated anyone with any degree of violence.

[hard widget]

He’s not a bad king but he is still a king which is bad. That was the crux of my argument

[fading shard]

exactly

[foggy stratus]

King≠Bad

[fading shard]

if anything it's said he did the opposite

[whole holly]

how is it correction? that's additional information

[fading shard]

can't both be used

[kindred ingot]

what's the topic here?

[whole holly]

correction applies to incorrect info, i just didn't include wl and subjects

[whole holly]

idk, sashimi

[fading shard]

I may or may not have accidentally revived the tag team argument wretched was dealing with

[foggy stratus]

Imo it also applies to amending information.

[hard widget]

Same old ground really

[kindred ingot]

tag team argument?

[hard widget]

Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall till ages pass and kingdoms fall

[fading shard]

That's

[hard widget]

Mister mushroom

[fading shard]

that's because his light literally had bugs worship him

[kindred ingot]

Caps and shells may fall to dust but Mister Mushroom readjusts

[whole holly]

oh yeaaa, but isn't that uncommon definition? for clarified communication different word can be used like addition

[hard widget]

Semantics

[fading shard]

yeah those who he gave sapience towards joined him

[foggy stratus]

Its the definition i feel more inclined to have.

[fading shard]

but we actively see that almost every other tribe wanted nothing to do with him

and that was respected

we have the mosskin, hive, mantis lords, deepnest, snail shamans (technically) and the whole collosseum of fools

[whole holly]

okay, that can cause confusion, but your choice!

[kindred ingot]

the colosseum might have smth to do with him tho

[fading shard]

the lord fool ran it

[kindred ingot]

no, I mean, something to do with, not ruled by

[hard widget]

Notice how all of the people the pale king left alone are those he either took from significantly already (mosskin) or those with strength of arms enough to cause significant drain of resources compared to the gain of sacking the lands

[fading shard]

he didn't take anything from the mosskin

[kindred ingot]

they have a Shade Trap, which means Shades were common occurances there

[fading shard]

that was his wife

and the lore tablet does not mention him once

nor hallownest

[hard widget]

Queens gardens, fog canyon, the pilgrims road through greenpath

[fading shard]

queens gardens was said to be taken by the white lady and she get's called a pale being

and not the queen

[fading shard]

the pilgrims road wasn't taken

[hard widget]

They are the joint rulers of hallownest meaning anything she does is with his authority and vice versa

[foggy stratus]

Fog Canyon was Monomon, Queen's Gardens was WL and abandoned before hand, the road was consensual.

[hard widget]

They’re literally married 😭😭😭

[fading shard]

the lore tablet

identifies her at the time

as not the pale queen

or the white queen

nor mentions hallownest

nor mentions the king

nor mentions them together

[kindred ingot]

the Pilgrim's Way was a deal they made peacefully

[fading shard]

and in addition the pale king had to meet the white lady somewhere

[kindred ingot]

which tablet?

[fading shard]

and the queens garden is called the LATE queens personal sanctuary

[hard widget]

Ok so the white lady took the queens gardens from the mosskin and then married the pale king thus incorporating it into hallownest

[fading shard]

my guy the pale king could literally destroy the hive or mantis tribe if he wanted too

[hard widget]

It’s the same thing

[fading shard]

you realize that right

[fading shard]

how is that his fault

that's not the same thing

if I marry a criminal whos crimes i had nothing to do with nor was affiliated at the time

am I then also a criminal

[foggy stratus]

So if it married a murderer would I be complacent for their past crimes?

[hard widget]

If you actively add the stolen wealth to your own, in this case land, yes!

[fading shard]

what

[hard widget]

You now claim the stolen land as your own

[fading shard]

He didn't though

[hard widget]

The queens gardens are part of hallownest

[fading shard]

he didn't claim as his own it was still the white ladies sanctuary

[fading shard]

yeah but she did with it what she pleased

[hard widget]

There’s literally a giant fuck off statue of him in the middle of the area

[fading shard]

the old stag literally states

[fading shard]

She literally made that for ihm

because she loved him

[kindred ingot]

this tablet?

[fading shard]

Why do you think there was a massive statue of her love in her personal sanctuary

when there's basically no other statues in hallownest of the king

other then ancient basin

[foggy stratus]

Missing the fact that the lands were prior abandoned and as such the Mosskin didnt control them.

[kindred ingot]

"though once our lands"

they did control them

[foggy stratus]

At one point in the past.

[hard widget]

Yeah they were owned by the mosskin until a pale being, likely the queen, took them over.

Meaning, they were taken from the mosskin and put in the hands of a pale being

[fading shard]

the old stag literally states that basically nobody visited the queens gardens

it was just her place to be happy in

her personal sanctuary

[kindred ingot]

btw, I just noticed Greenpath doesn't have a single Hallownest lore tablet
all of the lore tablets are Mosskin tablets

[fading shard]

not the kings

[hard widget]

You are missing the point entirely holy shit.

[fading shard]

so basically the best you can criticize the pale king for is that he married a woman that stole some land

that's the best you can criticize him for

really?

[hard widget]

No, that’s one example of how pale beings take the land of others into their dominion

[fading shard]

When we see with grand mother silk that they can absolutely destroy mortals land as they please

[kindred ingot]

I mean, White Lady owning the Gardens before the White Wyrm arrived makes perfect sense

she had to be somewhere

[fading shard]

that's the only example relating to his wife

hate on the white lady not on him

The mosskin don't even show any distaste for him for it

[foggy stratus]

"Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead"->"Lands that we prior abandoned are now controlled by White Lady"

[hard widget]

Yeah, and I’m saying his method of dominating the lands that surround him are more peaceful and more admirable. This does not mean the process of dispossessing people of their lands to establish your own kingdom is good

[fading shard]

he didn't dominate others lands?

what lands did he have control over

that were others territories

the hive?

the hive was completely seperate

the mantis lords?

deepnest?

the ancestral grounds?

[fading shard]

greenpath is literally owned by the mosskin

they literally only ALLOW pilgrims safe passage on the roads

[hard widget]

He took direct control of basin, crossroads, city, peaks, ducts areas. He bargained control from the fungus, moths, sections of greenpath. He tried and failed to expand into Deepnest, ignored the hive, and made a truce with the mantises

[fading shard]

and state that if you strafe of them even a bit you are now under unns law

[fading shard]

what

[hard widget]

Those are the areas of hallownest the pale kjng established as his own kingdom

It’s the geopolitical state of hallownest

[kindred ingot]

Ancient Basin (part of the Abyss and therefore empty at that point in history), City of Tears (could have been occupied before him but we can't be sure), Crossroads (the Maggots), Crystal Peak (the Moth Tribe), Waterways (the Flukes), and Kingdom's Edge (maybe. In any case, no one else lives there)

[fading shard]

yeah and all of them other then a few weren't owned by anybody

[foggy stratus]

Most of those regions have no evidence of prior habitation by any civilization besides the long gone Ancient Civilization.

[hard widget]

Well a king who was believed to have created the world and everybody in it would likely go to great pains to hide the fact that his eternal kingdom used to be owned by other people, now would he?

This comes from lemm

[kindred ingot]

did he ever even claim that?

[fading shard]

the game literally talks about every single thing the pale king did wdym

[kindred ingot]

he just claimed his kingdom was the last

[hard widget]

No becuase he’s dead in game and besides the higher beings lore tablets all we have to work with ar what his followers say

[fading shard]

they'd mention other factions?

[kindred ingot]

and did any of his followers say that?

[fading shard]

They lireally tell us about every single faction and their relation to the pale king

[fading shard]

they did believe he created the world yes

[kindred ingot]

that's weird

[hard widget]

Like I said Lemm states that the bugs believed he created everything

Because they worship him as a god

[fading shard]

so you genuinely cannot use this as an argument

genuinely you can't

because that's going into conspiracies

you can't use stuff that nowhere is implied for evidence

[kindred ingot]

we can't be sure of that, there could be factions we're unaware of

[hard widget]

That is literally reasoning from Lemm, a historian

[fading shard]

he never states that these lands were stolen

[fading shard]

where does lemm state this land was stolen

[hard widget]

Most of what I have argued comes from lemm’s dialogue or the fact that pale beings seek domination and establish kingdoms

[kindred ingot]

we don't know anything about City of Tear's past, and we only know about the Maggots of Crossroads but there could be more

[fading shard]

The bugs of Hallownest believed that their King created this world and everything in it. For what purpose, I wonder? this is said by the hunter

[kindred ingot]

also Kingdom's Edge, that place is currently empty but the White Wyrm arrived there first, so it could have been way different

[fading shard]

no???

[hard widget]

Yeah the wyrm husk has smothered all life there except for the fools and the hoppers

[kindred ingot]

and the weird floating cows

[whole holly]

white lady also claimed Queen's Gardens

[kindred ingot]

and the Aspids

[hard widget]

Yeah that’s literally land claimed by her for her private retreat from other people

[kindred ingot]

that was probably before the White Wyrm arrived

and so it's not Pale King's fault

[whole holly]

it was taken away from mosskin

[fading shard]

""Another Hallownest Seal? Pass it over.
Ah. I enjoy collecting their like, but there's little information to be gleaned of each.
Mind you, they do keep a nice shine about them and there's nothing wrong with appreciating something purely on aesthetic merits."

[kindred ingot]

it's hard to be sure if Pale King owned the Gardens

[fading shard]

"Another Hallownest Seal?
Others have told me there's a statue out by the city's entrance depicting a large knightly figure. Could be one of the Kingdom's great five.
I'd have looked it over myself, but the gate's long been shut tight and it's too much hassle taking the long way round with all those blasted husks about."

[whole holly]

i mean Hallownest did incorporate Queen's Gardens in it's kingdom, instead of giving it back and paying reparations to mosskin

[fading shard]

"A King's Idol, eh?
Hallownest's king was an elusive figure, deified by the citizens. With the king rarely seen, worship was offered through these idols."

[kindred ingot]

are you seriously and unironically going to copy paste every instance of Lemm's dialogue?

[fading shard]

"A King's Idol?
If you look closely, each of these idols is subtly different. There are fine engravings about them that take some time to decipher.
I suspect each was tailored to the owner. A personalised symbol of the king's omnipotence."

[hard widget]

They’re a part of hallownest even if they’re not open to the public. In the same way poor people are often not allowed into rich people and nobility’s vacation houses

[fading shard]

"A King's Idol?
I've often wondered the true visage of the king. Depictions are of an imposing, gleaming figure and a fiercely horned crown."

[hard widget]

It’s like how the woods surrounding a castle were directly owned by the royals

[fading shard]

"A King's Idol?
With as many of these as you've delivered, the other Relic Seekers are like to think I've gone mad for the King!
Pah! Who am I kidding. They'll only be jealous of my collection. Find me more!"

[kindred ingot]

I see

[fading shard]

wretched where tf is this lemm dialogue

you speak off

[whole holly]

pale king was complicit in Queen's Gardens colonization!

[fading shard]

I just searched through every relic dialogue

[whole holly]

he marred colonizer!

[kindred ingot]

he IS a colonizer

[fading shard]

Since when

[kindred ingot]

he, uh... colonized the land we now call Hallownest

[fading shard]

Okay what does colonizer mean

I thought it meant individuals who stole others land

[fading shard]

So I have just sent basically everything to do with the pale king

that lemm talks about

do you want to tell me

where any of this gives you such an impression

[whole holly]

i meant that in different sense! as in annexation, not integration and establishing kingdom

[fading shard]

he literally talks about the pale kings omnipotence

[fading shard]

well then no he didn't colonize

he didn't send anybody to govern any COUNTRY