sk-lore

[whole holly]

yea, so is Unn and lavalug

[limpid summit]

Wanderers journal says Salubra is a slug

[whole holly]

Lavalug is higher being

[kindred ingot]

ngl she looks like nothing to me

[limpid summit]

Unn is probably not canonically a slug

She just looks like an irl slug

[whole holly]

game manual says Shape of Unn gives player shape of Slug, Unn = Slug

[limpid summit]

Well yeah it looks like a slug

PK is a Wyrm not a worm

[near jasper]

Silksong/hollow knight basically

[limpid summit]

Are lavalugs called slugs

Oh they’re called mollusks

Sure

[craggy smelt]

lugs not slugs

(bugs)

[whole holly]

Shape of Unn makes player become Speedy Slug

[kindred ingot]

anyway, not all slugs have soul powers

[near jasper]

To our knowledge

[paper mantle]

The slugs are relationed with snails?

[craggy smelt]

don't think so

[kindred ingot]

nop

[craggy smelt]

no overlap that I can recall

[whole holly]

irl yes, hk idk

[whole holly]

i hope we see half Pale Slug half Shaman species and becomes protagonist

[craggy smelt]

pray for sea slugs in Sea of Sorrow
they're neat

[paper mantle]

Salubra, Sylphean slug (pale), soul...

[craggy smelt]

and they join the grimm troupe and get hooked on lifeblood

(all the powers)

[near jasper]

If I had a nickel for every Indie game with a pink slug with Weird kinda speech that has a shop with permanent upgrades id have 2 nickels which isnt a lot but its weird that it happened twice

[whole holly]

you missed Pale Steel Weapons and Void

[whole holly]

which one is other one?

Nuu? i thought she was a kissing bug, it TC logic at least

[near jasper]

Nvm I misremembered it was a snail

[near jasper]

I only have one nickel 😔

[foggy stratus]

Don't forget regular essence and Old Heart magic.

[craggy smelt]

ah, hermit crabs
the snails of the sea

apart from the sea snails

[paper mantle]

I want see a Pale Shaman
How powerful would it be?

[whole holly]

as powerful as pale being as skilled as shaman(probably little more in both categories)

[whole holly]

aren't hermit crabs and barnacles supposed to debut in Sea of Sorrows, i want Snail of Sorrows

[near jasper]

They should add bison in sea of sorrow

[whole holly]

they didn't even add lions, though

[foggy stratus]

Lobster.

[whole holly]

to be honest i hope they add some kind of Sea-Silk produced by Sea Molluscs

[fierce narwhal]

mmmm moist silk

wonderful

[whole holly]

i kind of want new twist on it, or something

what species do you guys think will get added in Sea of Sorrows

[atomic haven]

Why do I want sea of sorrow to not have void silk in act three or no silk at all

Like

Cuz the bugs above cradle aren’t haunted

They just passive(except for garpede)

[craggy smelt]

barnacle bay...

[craggy smelt]

i hope for sea slugs, maybe seen as a gigantic creature in the distance during Submersible travel scenes

[whole holly]

I want to see aquatic themed Unn’s cooler sister

[whole holly]

You aren’t only one

[atomic haven]

lol

[whole holly]

But fact that barnacle is in memorium…

[craggy smelt]

I am interested in whether DLC will ever go beyond Act 3, but I'm not expecting that for SoS

I figure if void doesn't go into the Wormways, it won't reach the Sea

maybe Lifeblood will have something to do with it

I do wonder if there will be any changes in SoS content between Act 2 and 3, or whether the state of the Wormways will affect it

(I have prepared multiple saves for this reason)

[lethal kayak]

I hope it's between act 2 and 3 for the sole purpose of disrupting all the Speedrun routing lol. But good point about lifeblood seemingly preventing void in worm ways and that might mean SoS areas are also spared

[acoustic imp]

maybe the elusive sea is in a completely different area from pharloom?

after all it's not like hallownest was dying during act three

[cursive sinew]

"Spared"

SoS areas will definitely get taken over by lifeblood in act 3

Or at least the parts close to Lifeblood

[lethal kayak]

You mean like void spared the lifeblood areas?

[acoustic imp]

I always thought lifeblood was void-related, and the void takeover also made lifeblood take over the wormways.

[near jasper]

Every day I relate more and more to the hate lore tablet inside bilewater

[sinful nimbus]

Fill your hearts with hate, for power has now been claimed, and with it we shall punish 🗣️

[near jasper]

This isnt related to silksong im just mad at the YouTube company

[foggy stratus]

Same, my friend.

Hate? Let me tell you how much I've come to hate since I began to live...

[frank dove]

Every day I relate more and more to the lore tablet in the slab

[near jasper]

The Swallowing

[frank dove]

._.

Not even what I meant

I just meant being imprisoned

[calm chasm]

||Hornet: Some would argue that standing guard over a kingdom's corpse is a foolish task, empty of meaning. I wonder then, will you still hold true to your charge?|| gee i wonder how she knows that

[edgy sentinel]

truly it is a mystery

maybe the people in #hk-lore know?

[calm chasm]

surely its just empty dialogue and is in no way related to the first game

[twin dragon]

500 hornet parallels

[foggy stratus]

Someone give me a random enemy.

-# also I'm almost done with school:D

[foggy fractal]

Tormented Trobbio

[foggy stratus]

"Having resigned himself to the impending death of the world, he no longer performs to enliven Pharloom but instead to hasten it's demise, so it seems. Dramatic."-The Hunter

[echo vapor]

Time to do Bell Beast

[foggy stratus]

"A large, durable beast with a hardened shell. Seemingly rare as I've only encountered a handful of them. However, they make excellent hunts. They also seem loyal to those they befriend."-The Hunter

[echo vapor]

How do you think an encounter between them would go

[foggy stratus]

Hunter would probably kill them.

[echo vapor]

Oh man

Yeah thats true

[foggy stratus]

Juicy Bell Beast steak.

[echo vapor]

Metallic taste

[foggy stratus]

Off topic I think the Hunter eats his steaks blue rare.

[echo vapor]

Who knows lol 😭

I think he likes it raw

[foggy stratus]

Blue rare is basically raw from my understanding.

[echo vapor]

Oh well

[near jasper]

Hunter invents the fridge when he goes to hunt in steel city to keep meat fresh

[echo vapor]

That term is quite arcane for me since English is my second language

[foggy stratus]

Why do that when you can just hunt someone for fresh meat?

[echo vapor]

That will probably be his inventory system

Are there any relations between Pharloom and Hallownest (like in culture, influence or just the awareness that the other exists)

Aside from like Weavers

Not sure if they ever came back to Pharloom after the trip to Hallownest

To me the Farsight looks quite familiar

[near jasper]

Not really

[echo vapor]

It bears great resemblance to the Pale King

[echo vapor]

Yeah thats what i though

[echo vapor]

Even the ability to oversee the world is really a Pale King thing

[lone folio]

Eh

[echo vapor]

Um

I mean

Yeah ?

Like a little bit

[lone folio]

WOW GUYS LOOK

THE PALE KING

[lone folio]

He has some kind of future sight

[echo vapor]

Yeah i mean the sight

[lone folio]

And the farsight just sees far in space, not time

[echo vapor]

I just always thought it looked odd and tried to find a reasonable relation to it

Well uh you could tell it was lackluster

[lone folio]

It does look similar but not similar enough

[echo vapor]

True

Its too vague

No leg to stand on 😭

[lone folio]

I doubt they would of known about the pale king when they were making it

[echo vapor]

Maybe they went back to Pharloom

In the description of the Weaverlings charm

It said that the charm was made before the Weavers went back to their old home

So they could possibly have come back at some point

But eventually killed off or flee to another place

But i think The Weavers coming back doesnt make sense either

If GMS was hunting for them then why come back to Pharloom

[lone folio]

We dont really know what happened to the hallownest weavers

[echo vapor]

Walk right into the Lions Den

[echo vapor]

Yeah

Maybe its a retcon

[lone folio]

I would also think that the hallownest weavers were a part of the cyndril group that escaped pharloom

And it would make sense if they used the farsight to map out the world before heading of, just speculation.

[echo vapor]

The Weavenest in Far Fields had a map to point out the ways away from Pharloom

So there were obviously other groups too

[lone folio]

Yeah, that map needed to be made somehow

[echo vapor]

Was it made using Farsight ?

[lone folio]

Maybe

Trecking through the wastes is pretty dangerous for any bug so sending out weavers to map them out doesnt seem like the best idea

[echo vapor]

Yeah

So they had to map the Wasteland out somehow

With Farsight it might be possible

[foggy stratus]

Looks more like the desk thing in the Abyss where you get Void Tendrils entry in Hollow Knight.

[candid linden]

whys there no bellway in hunters march

[echo vapor]

The Citadel never went there

The Skarr were ferocious to outsiders

[coarse whale]

What room is this? I haven't seen it before

[covert night]

abyss in hk

[foggy fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prsqtXosWRY&source_ve_path=MTc4NDI0

[coarse whale]

Thanks!

[dire lynx]

hunter cant penetrate the garpede shell so i think the interaction would either lead to him taming one or just avoiding it

[foggy stratus]

Hornet was able to hurt Bell Beast.

Plus id imagine their underside is vulnerable.

So it's look like the Hunter flipping a Bell Beast and just gutting them.

[dire lynx]

she wasnt, her nail hits are seen as petting

she calmed it down lol

[foggy stratus]

Or she's purposely holding back on the force as to not actually hurt Bell Beast.

[cinder pebble]

the relaxation of a silkspear to the face 😌

[dire lynx]

why would she do that when its actively trying to kill her

[foggy stratus]

I mean after the fight.

[dire lynx]

im talking about during the fight

[foggy stratus]

Well then it is actually hurting Bell Beast as it not only causes her to enter a different, more aggressive phase as well as knocking her out for a short time.

And even if The Hunter couldn't harm her with his claws or teeth, there's nothing to say he couldn't just grab a fairly large bell and hammer away at a Bell Beast.

[dire lynx]

why would it just sit there, it would either fight back or flee

and it has both durability and strength over the hunter

[foggy stratus]

The Hunter could just wrestle that shit like a greased pig.

[foggy stratus]

The Hunter has thumbs tho. And likely has more battle intelligence.

[twin dragon]

True

but bell eater would mog the fuck out of hunter

its too big

[dire lynx]

it doesnt matter when the bell beast is just so much stronger lol

[twin dragon]

tbf the bell beast doesnt have much maneuravility if the hunter starts wrestling

but again its too strong likely

[dire lynx]

like, w hallownest glaze, but bell is just way more physically powerful

[twin dragon]

Now

the more fitting question

hunter vs gurr

[foggy stratus]

Hunter.

[twin dragon]

Likely hunter is too experienced for gurr

[dire lynx]

i feel like gurrs only wincon is an ambush

which can also be said of hunter

[foggy stratus]

Also hes physically larger iirc and doesn't rely on tools like a little bitch.

[twin dragon]

god forbid one uses tech to their advantatge

[foggy stratus]

He just copied Sting Shard smh.

Also doesn't The Hunter have claws? Or am I making shit up on accident?

[twin dragon]

Idk but he seems to have raw strength

[dire lynx]

slightly taller

[foggy stratus]

Hes much taller. Hes kneeling in the size comparison images.

[dire lynx]

but much slimmer

[twin dragon]

Damn the mantis lords are lil chopsticks lmao

[foggy stratus]

The Hunter is just going to rip Gurr's fucking head off.

[dire lynx]

pretty much, gurr doesnt seem to be much of an actual fighter

[foggy stratus]

Hydrogen Gorilla vs Coughing Man.

[sinful nimbus]

If its from HK it mogs its Silksong counterpart

[foggy stratus]

Stag mogs Bell Beast ig.

[sinful nimbus]

Surely

But PK mogs GMS and TK mogs Hornet and Shamans mog Weavers

Hunter no diffs Gurr

[foggy stratus]

Radiance also mogs GMS.

[dire lynx]

unn mogs nyleth

[foggy stratus]

And Shamans mogs Shamnas.

[sinful nimbus]

Isma also mogs Nyleth

[sinful nimbus]

As do all HK higher beings

Land of Gods indeed

[dire lynx]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExbWQ2MzAzM3NmMDdtcGZlNTV5b3lvZmJhamF6aDhpc3J5M3p5bnZvNiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/68AGjYHufzA9u984zF/giphy.gif

[foggy stratus]

Five Great Knights vs Sentinels gonna look like the Avengers vs The Guardians of the Globe.

[sinful nimbus]

Every day I wish we got a dung beetle guard for Nyleth

An actually tuff callback

[spark valve]

that might be a bit much

[sinful nimbus]

You could reuse Ogrim

Who knows how long SS takes place after HK

Maybe he moved on from Isma

[spark valve]

would undermine his arc to just attach himself to another plant lady

[sinful nimbus]

We remain children of hallownest 😌

[foggy stratus]

I need a version of this but it Hallownest instead of Unn tbh.

[craggy smelt]

hmm, what kind of bug is Seth?

maybe it's poop related~!

[whole holly]

sadly Vespa doesn't mog Karmelita

[ember river]

It'd be nice to theorize about that if we had info on anyone other than ogrim

[foggy stratus]

It'd probably be a fun fight tho.

[whole holly]

we know next to nothing about isma, if you said monomon mogs nyleth, then i would probably believe you

lord fool doesn't mog khann!

[ember river]

Karmelita is one of the strongest regular bugs in the series I'd say, not much stands above her

[foggy stratus]

I feel like Hegemol would do what Liberty Prime in Fallout 4 does to that one Super mutant Bohemith.

[ember river]

Oh wait we do have some info on Hegemol from the false knight fights

I forgot about that

[whole holly]

Old Hearts are most likely stronger than Five Great Knights, as they are mortal powers, they are also more relevant than Dreamers too

[whole holly]

i mean Lifeblood Beast mogs GMS too

[ember river]

Eh, other than Herrah the dreamers don't seem like particularly strong fighters

[foggy stratus]

Tiso mogs GMS trust.

[whole holly]

Old Hearts can match power of Higher Being together

[whole holly]

he needs to be alive for that to be true

[foggy stratus]

[ember river]

No they can't, all of them got overpowered and annihilated by a single HB, and probably while sleeping

[whole holly]

Shamans say so, together they are equal to gms in power

[ember river]

Isn't the shamans' comment on their power talking about the amount of power required for the red memory? Let me check the lines

[foggy stratus]

Just saying Infected Weaver mogs Widow trust

[ember river]

Well, probably

[whole holly]

doesn't infection give strength or something

[ember river]

Widow can't produce silk and if they got infected in a similar fashion as the traitor mantis then those weavers would be quite stronger

[foggy stratus]

They just can't use it. Their silk is bound in their shell.

[ember river]

Not much of a difference in this scenario

@whole holly I couldn't find the line where the shamans mention the hearts being comparable to a higher being, which one exactly did you mean?

They claim "equal maybe to that monarch" as the requirement for the Red Memory, and even then it completely drains all the shamans as well as the hearts

[whole holly]

under spell seeker for some reason

[twin dragon]

the hearts arent comparable to higher beings thats not what it says

They need 3 of them to draw the power even remotely close to the one gms has

[whole holly]

they didn't mention word "remotely close"

[twin dragon]

equal or wtvc

but it needs 3 of them

[craggy smelt]

one feat of power equivalent to a feat GMS can perform, I guess

[ember river]

So even if they were on the right and you required the output of a higher being to cast the Red Memory, the hearts would still not suffice by themselves, and they'd basically kill themselves to achieve, just for a moment, the raw power that a Higher Being outputs naturally

[whole holly]

that's claim i was making

[foggy stratus]

Would 4 Hearts allow for them to not need to kill themselves?

[whole holly]

i am glad we agree

[ember river]

Maybe? We still have no idea what the hearts really are when the old rulers still live

[craggy smelt]

maybe you could do like a team attack thing
many individual heroes working collectively to slay a mighty foe

like in Vox Machina

killing those dragons

[whole holly]

lol, i love vox machina

[ember river]

To me they seem like some sort of collection, like a battery of sorts born from the wishes and memories from those tribes

It's not the actual raw power that the rulers wielded all the time, even though they were strong by all metrics

[whole holly]

technically it is a battery

[ember river]

Yeah, but I mean that it's not just the strength from the rulers that goes in there, but of the entire tribe

[whole holly]

druid describes it as rhythm, maybe it is similar to godseeker's resonance and by extension of essence?

that would make sense, especially if they are linked to memories

[foggy stratus]

I feel like they give their bearers power. Khann's control of coral, Karmel's ability to repel GMS, Nylth making Shellwood, Green Prince... I dunno, not needing food??

[ember river]

Could be, still not the output at which the ancient rulers should be functioning in that case

[ember river]

Green Prince had his manservant hunt down and feed him muckroaches

[whole holly]

Old Hearts are mortal powers, God by Godseeker standard is being with power with godtuner description, maybe Godseeker's would be attuning to Old Heart's rhythm? if they had opportunity that is.

[ember river]

Ass Jim also cooked for him, he's royalty and deserved to be treated as such

[ember river]

Oh, most definetely. They are far above some of the creatures they called gods in Hallownest

[whole holly]

Nyleth controlled branches i think, Green Prince felled Palestag?

[ember river]

However, at the top of the pantheon the true monarch of Pharloom would reveal herself
Savage Beastfly Queen

[foggy stratus]

I figured out Green Prince's heart given power. His ability to just fucking float midair.

[whole holly]

i know i am trying to link resonance to rhythm, maybe it is essence-related, Old Hearts also likely have some soul power

[ember river]

Why would they control soul, that's not something they do

None of them have any soul attacks

[foggy stratus]

Nylth and Khann* can seemingly create life.

[whole holly]

i meant have more than average amount of soul, given that shamans used it for spell i did not mean soul manipulation

[whole holly]

Old Hearts seemingly also sustain life?

[foggy stratus]

And Green Prince materialized clovers upon his death.

[ember river]

Nyleth is a plant, some of the theories that I've liked take it as her growing to span most, if not all of Shellwood, hence it being her creation
And to my knowledge, Khann's subjects were just a regular bug species, just like Karmelita didn't create the Skarrs

[foggy stratus]

I mean the coral he just seemingly summons from the back rooms.

[ember river]

I doubt that the hearts' power comes from soul, since it's described as something else, but they are powerful nontheless

[whole holly]

which makes creatures like Father of the Flame, Greyroot, Palestag and Fayforn hard to categorize, personally i think Fayforn might be Old Heart, greyroot is a witch, Palestag is... touch pale and Father of the Flame is totem/god?

[ember river]

Fayforn is not an old heart

He's probably in the same category as Bardoon

[foggy stratus]

They're the Fell Heart of Frost.

[foggy stratus]

Put some respect on their Void damn name.

[whole holly]

sure, but during red memory soul particles were presented

[whole holly]

i think it might be, there is no reason to outright deny possibility, from what game presents it might be plausible

[ember river]

I'll only consider "old hearts" the ones that we actually get confirmation about

Because they had their rule and their subjects

[whole holly]

Nyleth wasn't a really a ruler, though

[ember river]

Fayforn had none, it was a rite of passage for the weavers

[ember river]

She was revered and worshipped as a minor deity

[whole holly]

so? Weavers kind of communed with Fayforn, Fayforn and Nyleth equally satisfy central-figure criteria

[foggy stratus]

Feyforn could be the mother to the wingmould stand ins(forgor the name). Wait the Driftlins thats it.

[whole holly]

they are likely, from needolin dialogue

[ember river]

Again, fayforn, although respected and sought after by the weavers, would have been considered as an equal at most if we take into acount how pissed off they get at the idea of anything being above them

[ember river]

I believe driftlins to be younger stages of a fayforn

And it's just a regular, albeit powerful, creature

[foggy stratus]

That's basically what Old Hearts are tbh.

[craggy smelt]

hrmm, if Fayforn is the source of Mt. Fay's frozen environment, maybe there's a magma-aligned old heart down in the laval flows below Deep Docks
that would be more interesting than boring old tectonic activity, like how our dumb world works

[whole holly]

we don't see forgehome which is near Pharloom so maybe!

[craggy smelt]

a forgeking would be neat

'Forefather'

(or foremother)

[ember river]

Yes and no, the hearts themselves are just recollections of Pharloom's ancient tribes and civilizations channeled through the rulers

That's why I'm very reluctant of calling the rulers themselves "hearts"

And to add fayforn to that list

[foggy stratus]

The magma is actually caused by left over heat from Zote's ego which, as we all know, needed so much energy to sustain it that it approached solar levels of temperatures.

[whole holly]

Shellwood doesn't have tribe in traditional sense, Nyleth is equally connected to all living being of shellwood, and hearts are also connected to flora and fauna of land, they are ones sustaining it

[humble moat]

Why cant you needolin bell beast?

Whats the difference between bugs you can mind read and ones you can't

[low oracle]

Bell Beast isn't sapient. There is "bug and beast" which likely refers to sapient and sentient beings.

[craggy smelt]

and the beasts that you can read are all haunted, the silk in them is responding to the needolin
unhaunted beasts like the skrill can't be read

[humble moat]

Huh interesting considering what bugs are sentient

[humble moat]

Oh makes more sense now thx

[low oracle]

Humans are sapient. Sentient means you are aware. Sapient is more advanced than that.

[low oracle]

This is proven by the Skrills I believe.

[bitter canyon]

Is there a video you guys recommend for catching up on the entire lore of the games?

I thought I had played the first game extensively and fully explored it, but apparently there's different endings related to the god seekers that I didn't know about >.>?

[dire lynx]

did you beat act three?

[craggy smelt]

mossbag's lore vids are the usual recommend
I also like Lorebarians, as they tend to take a more serious tone

[unique tangle]

Mossbag is fundamental for the lore and plot summary, and there’s this video by indie xplorer called silksong and the agony of motherhood for a great breakdown of the themes of silksong’s story

[near jasper]

Dont they run away before they get to react to the needolin

[robust wagon]

Well the godseekers aren't in silksong, so you might be in the wrong channel

[craggy smelt]

probably talking about elements from ETV that may or may not be present

[grave stream]

why i she called gms? is she the grand mother of silk? i thought she lied to the evolved, not born weavers that she was their mother

[low oracle]

I think they don't react at all, due to not having any silk in them (GMS is below them).

[foggy stratus]

She considered herself the Mother of the Weavers. And she's Lace's and Phantom's mother. She is the Grand Mother, and she's made of Silk. Or thats her actual name. Silk.

[grave stream]

what are the silk hearts

Bell beast has not much relation to silk, no?

[echo vapor]

Might be memories

[grave stream]

of who is the question

[echo vapor]

Not sure

But we can see the most with Lace i think

The reason why GMS created her

[grave stream]

I know why phantom was created but why lace?

[echo vapor]

Same with Phantom

To replace the defective Weavers

But Phantom was a failed creation

She couldnt sustain her silk

Unlike Lace

[grave stream]

i think it's the weavers talking in the silk hearts

[echo vapor]

Lace’s was GMS talking

I think i left some important details about silk hearts so i cant really explain it

[grave stream]

from our silk?
isn't GMS the silk

[echo vapor]

The Weavers didnt create her tho

Why would the Weavers talk about it

They left after finding out

Then Lace was created

[dire lynx]

neither can sustain their silk, thats why they are perfect childeren, they cant betray gms or they will die

[grave stream]

they say "from our silk a child born loyal"
which seems like the weavers saying that lace was made of the silk they used because of the word our, not my
but that really doesn't fit with the plot, no?

[echo vapor]

Wait so what was Phantom’s problem

Was she too weak

[dire lynx]

gms stopped feeding her silk

we dont know why

[plain ruin]

GMS uses the royal “our”

Grindle does as well

Our refers to a single person in this instance

[dire lynx]

perhaps she had the capacity to develop, unlike lace

[echo vapor]

She just wont put it as “From my silk”

Sounds dull

[grave stream]

fair

[echo vapor]

Do they have the ability to regenerate silk

If yes then that might be their difference

[dire lynx]

no

[echo vapor]

Alr

[dire lynx]

thats why shes all grey and falling apart

[near jasper]

Twelfth architect's singing kinda reminds me of the architect melody

[craggy smelt]

maybe her design was flawed, and she needed too much

[echo vapor]

It might be because..well architects

[near jasper]

A bit Weird considering theres dialogue whose only reason is to say they forgot the melody but cool

[echo vapor]

I think its still faintly engrained in their system

Since they are still the architect after all

[craggy smelt]

omg silksore is such a fucking mess graaaa~

[near jasper]

Why do we never see shakra in the citadel?

[craggy smelt]

she hates it and doesn't want to go there

[near jasper]

Except that one time She's Just chilling in high halls

[craggy smelt]

graaa~

[near jasper]

The citadel is so ass a woman that thoroughly explored bilewater thought it was too ugly

[echo vapor]

I’d love to see Shakra attempts the Mount Fay climb in full

[craggy smelt]

there are some actual lines to express her distaste for the place though

The haunted bugs have been defeated and the way forward is yours. Let us meet again soon, away from this dreadful Citadel.

I can't recall if there's a line where she specifically says she won't go there, but she definitely doesn't like it there

[echo vapor]

She vehemently hates the ventrica too

[near jasper]

The ventrica pins have a different color in the shop and in your map

This is a reference to how Hornet gets eye diseases upon spending rosaries

[echo vapor]

Colorblindness

[grave stream]

What really is greyroot? I know what Root is, but is she even related, where is she from, what is she?

[echo vapor]

Potential Higher Being

Or at least that one parasite

Twisted Bud

[oblique rampart]

She's the last of her kind, these witch parasites. And somehow through speculation she is related to white lady

[echo vapor]

They have some sort of relation

[grave stream]

grey root

that's the evidence!

[craggy smelt]

Hornet mentions that Greyroot is something quite different from a bug

[echo vapor]

Root

[oblique rampart]

I don't remember hornet saying that

[craggy smelt]

prepare to be sourced

Greyroot: Bug. A living bug.
Hornet: A bug I am, at least in part, but you are something quite different.

[grave stream]

Hornet: A bug I am, at least in part, but you are quite something different. I apologize if I have roused you from some deep slumber.

oh wait

you beat me to it

damn it

[craggy smelt]

snailed

🐌

[echo vapor]

Erudite people

[oblique rampart]

When does she say that? When you first meet greyroot?

[grave stream]

"hkss wiki greyroot -> dialogue -> expand"

[echo vapor]

Yeah

Shes obsessed with a “rite of rebirth”

I think its for herself to be reborn as a stronger being

Like binding herself to Hornet using the Twisted Bud

Then later GMS

[paper mantle]

Rebirth...

Mm...

It's not similar to Wyrm?

[echo vapor]

No

Her method is parasitic

I hope we get a journal detailing her after getting the Witch Crest

That would at least address something

[grave stream]

wdym journal

like a relic

or like wanderer's journal

[echo vapor]

A journal entry for the Hunter’s journal

[grave stream]

ah

[bitter canyon]

Yes. Even with the space fungus

[sick tinsel]

most likely

[echo vapor]

Her wish asserted that

[low oracle]

Maybe it's something like:
Greyroot isn't actually the thing we see, but rather an entity that is the source of all these roots. They body it has at first is just another root that they formed to look alive. When the entity's presence leaves the "body" via the Twisted Bud it becomes a simple root once again (though formed to imitate a bug).
There isn't an answer as to why the Twisted Bud is so far apart from Greyroot and such, or if it's an actual sole entity rather than a part of Greyroot. There are corpses of Pilgrims in the area you appear in afterwards, so there are two theories I know of so far:
-Greyroot tried utilizing Pilgrims for its purpose but they were to weak and faded
-Greyroot expands its roots and power with soul, hence establishing its domain inside of Shellwood by preying on Pilgrims. Therefore the Twisted Child ending happens, as the large access to soul (silk) gives the bud immense power
(I find this more plausible)

In the case that the Bud and Greyroot are separate beings, it'd imply a cycle of the Bud and Greyroot repeatedly taking over bugs. This doesn't make all too much sense though, as there wouldn't be any reason for the bud to be so far away. And how would the bud even come to exist if so?

In the Twisted Child ending, GMS and Hornet turn to the root substance, furthermore implying their soul was drained in a special way. Personally I just think Greyroot is the Twisted Child and that the entity is moreso a presence than limited to one specific physical body.

[half pawn]

So I basically somehow predicted the main silksong lore before it even came out.

[low oracle]

Technically that'd imply we could fight the Twisted Child in a sort of Godhome place, since technically it would be the prime form of Greyroot.
I don't think it'll happen though, considering a parasite can always have a stronger prime form depending on the being they overtook.

[half pawn]

Wdym ❔

[low oracle]

Silksong came out long before, in addition to this not being the lore.

[half pawn]

I sent that message on the 9th of may 2025

[low oracle]

The Choir Bugs worship the Weavers, not GMS. The Weavers pretended to be Higher Beings for the sake of the religion and keeping the cycle going. I don't even know what to say about the rest.

[low oracle]

Nevermind then, I didn't see the date. While close it still isn't how anything goes.

[half pawn]

Well they kinda sing to her to keep her asleep.

[low oracle]

Why was there a Silksong lore channel before release?

[echo vapor]

Same. I also think they are one large hivemind rather than individuals

Thats why i said “she bind herself to Hornet” and not “she bind Twisted Bud to Hornet”

[low oracle]

Btw, are there different kinds of Hiveminds? Like one being where there is only one mind playing the pieces like chess. But in a different one the creatures have individual thoughts being shared, while still acting on their own.

[echo vapor]

Radiance’s infection

[low oracle]

For example, the Radiance can take over individuals and act as them. But when that is not the case they return to their base instincts while infected.

[echo vapor]

Yeah that

[low oracle]

Meanwhile GMS expresses commands moreso as emotions, or at least it seems to be implied in Pavo's dialogue.

[echo vapor]

Yeah

Especially “From our silk, a child born loyal”

The our here is only GMS

But it has a royal vibe to it

[low oracle]

The Unravelled seems like the rage of the silk within the bugs of the Whiteward taking a presence.

[echo vapor]

👍

[whole holly]

i think Grand Mother Silk seems really powerful, we just don't witness her in prime form

[paper mantle]

Yeah

[paper mantle]

We never see her use Pale Nails

[pseudo narwhal]

Well GMS was surviving for at least days being submerged into the Void sea

[whole holly]

i feel like she would use Silklight or Rune as attack as well

[pseudo narwhal]

Thats pretty impressive

[foggy stratus]

Silklight? Like the rail gun attacks from Mt. Fay enemy and True Silkshot?

[paper mantle]

You think this is a crest corpse?

[foggy stratus]

Not on the floor.

[whole holly]

yea, Servitor attack

[paper mantle]

She is weakened by a silk song

[paper mantle]

Ah?

[foggy stratus]

[paper mantle]

Silklight?

[foggy stratus]

Every crest bug we see is lying on the floor.

[paper mantle]

Oh...

[whole holly]

Servitor Attack

[paper mantle]

Team Cherry, do something

[foggy stratus]

Last Silksong DLC is gonna be the Hallownest expansion, trust

[paper mantle]

[foggy stratus]

Large Weaver Servitors from Mt. Fay.

The ones with the railgun attack.

[paper mantle]

Ooh, that

No, I can't remember XD

You have images?

[whole holly]

do you think GMS is capable of this?

[foggy stratus]

I feel like it needs some kind of focusing lense/crystal to do, so no sadly not.

[paper mantle]

Thanks

[paper mantle]

A silk Kamehameha? Yeah, sure

[whole holly]

focusing lens???

[paper mantle]

True

[foggy stratus]

Its a focused beam of silklight.

[whole holly]

yea but lens part is where i am confused, they are made from shell and rune

[foggy stratus]

Typically for something to be focused you need something to, ya know, focus it.

[whole holly]

i mean GMS is higher being, maybe it requires precision/focus, not lens

...keep... IMPULSELOST...
...peak... ascent...
...REFORMINSTINCT...
...ENEMY...
...obey... LOSTORHIDDEN...
...WAKE... guard... WAKE...

[whole holly]

needolin dialogue of boran

[foggy stratus]

It looks like it has some kind of lense it keeps covered while dormant.

[whole holly]

servitor ignim and boran look mostly same

[foggy stratus]

And I'm not sure its possible to instil Focus into a machine.

[whole holly]

hunter's journal disagrees

[whole holly]

personally i think it could either be AC or Deepnest

[paper mantle]

Cuff, cuff Radiance

[foggy stratus]

What?

[whole holly]

servitor boran is machine that focuses silklight

[whole holly]

but it woud resembles radiance's attack at third phase

[foggy stratus]

Yeah with a some device to focus it, not Focus like TK or PV has.

We already see a device that can amplify light in the form of the reflecting dish in the Light House in Hollow Knight.

[paper mantle]

His mask and column remind me of SB
Probably is the king of Deepnest

[whole holly]

it's just runes

[whole holly]

yea

[paper mantle]

Not necessarily

[foggy stratus]

If it were just runes why is it so much larger than Servitor Ignim.

[whole holly]

larger body?

[foggy stratus]

Yeah to contain the focusing device.

[whole holly]

servitors already act as light beaming devices which is stated to be runes, Servitor Boran just has Haunting and more Runes as advantage to beam focused light

[rotund pulsar]

But when we get to her she just breaks out of her cocoon like it's nothing

Plus hasn't it been a long time since she woke up

Isn't that why the citadel soldiers were looking for weavers?

I think she had a long time to regain her strength

[foggy stratus]

The runes are just what activates them.
"Small construct built by Weavers past, brought to life through Silk runes threaded within."-Servitor Ignim description

[paper mantle]

At some point, she was going to get away.

[rotund pulsar]

I think she could have broken out anytime but just chose to chill in there and have her haunted minions do the work

Cuz she was already awake even before hornet got captured

[paper mantle]

Probably

[whole holly]

and light simultaneously

[rotund pulsar]

I mean, why work when someone can do it for you?

[foggy stratus]

It doesnt state that. And even if it was it still wouldn't make sense for Servitor Boron to have such a larger physical body if its just different runes making its Silklight stronger.

[paper mantle]

Typically of gods

[whole holly]

dude, silklight is inherently silk related, and they have been brought to life through Silk runes threaded within, ones that are decommissioned/inactive, your assumption that there is lens in there is more unsubstantiated than mine, you don't apply same evidence standards to your assumptions that you apply to my synthesis, both silk and soul produce light.

only difference is potency due to increased size and possibly increased silk access due to haunting

[frank dove]

Hornet was her alarm

The only reason anyone wakes up is to turn off their alarm

[rotund pulsar]

That's

Actually fair point

[paper mantle]

You think Twisted Child is a Higher Being?

[teal drift]

I think it is not until the ending at which point it becomes one.

[blissful harbor]

if not HB it’s a very powerful creature like say fayforn

[frank dove]

Yes it ate one and a half

[exotic pendant]

twisted child became a higher being ig

[frank dove]

If hornet binding gms made her a higher being, then twisted child consuming it made it one

[paper mantle]

Correct

[low oracle]

Twisted Child would logically be a Higher Being.

[paper mantle]

[sick tinsel]

can i eat twisted child

[paper mantle]

._.

[low oracle]

Literally wood

With life inside.

[sick tinsel]

some types of wood are edible so ill take that as a yes

[sick tinsel]

do you guys think that pale king and WL wouldve been good parents if it wasent for the radiance

[foggy stratus]

They likely wouldn't have children. But yeah probably.

Don't see why they wouldn't be.

[sick tinsel]

why not

[foggy stratus]

Why have children when you're an immortal God king and God queen?

[sick tinsel]

pale king shoulda knew hed die

[sick tinsel]

idk get bored

[solar gale]

WL has a desire to spread her seed

[solar gale]

Well i mean pale king was a good father

That's why the vessel was tarnished

[sick tinsel]

a

dont look at vessels on this one

look at hornet

[foggy stratus]

Hes immortal.

[foggy stratus]

He gave up on living.

Otherwise hes immortal.

[sick tinsel]

i dont believe personally that he died because of the void but if that happned that thing would be coming for him no matter what

[foggy stratus]

Yeah he didnt die from the Void.

[sick tinsel]

nothing would stop a rebellion tho

[foggy stratus]

What kind of rebellion?

[sick tinsel]

idk

[sinful nimbus]

Sharpe probably killed him for meddling with the void

[sick tinsel]

but i wont expect if the PK started making bad decisions after a while

[foggy stratus]

No. No joking rn. Only very serious discussion.

[sinful nimbus]

This is a serious possibility

[foggy stratus]

No.

[sinful nimbus]

The vassal is tarnished. They have touched the dark. By the Masters, they will now be hunted... no matter the distance fled

Sharpe mogs PK

[sick tinsel]

not sharpe

[foggy stratus]

Assuming they'd give a shit about someone in no way affiliated with them to the point of hunting them down and killing them doesn't make sense.

[sick tinsel]

sharpe was sent after hornet

we dont know if he was sent after PK

[sinful nimbus]

Read the message bro they kill people who use void

[sick tinsel]

but the chance that the masters coulve sent someone to slay the PK isnt impossible

[sinful nimbus]

That's also likely why he was sent to kill Hornet

Act 3 and all

[foggy stratus]

And tbh until we get more info on them I genuinely don't like the glaze on Sharpe and the Masters.

[foggy stratus]

They kill their servants who mess with it.

[sinful nimbus]

And why would they kill Hornet exactly

She is not their servant

[sick tinsel]

she can naturally produce silk

and shes child of pale king and a weaver

so

[sinful nimbus]

???

That would just be a repeat of GMS capturing Hornet

[blissful harbor]

seems like they enforce their rules on any and everything

Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher...

idk why they would stop at void, which is the msot dangerous thing

[whole holly]

maybe they assassinated Pale King /s

[blissful harbor]

i don’t like the idea
but it’s genuinely not impossible now

PK was compressed
that’s why he was “erased so completely” by the godseekers

but PK commiting suicide has a lot more narrative weight than being taken out by the silver gang

[stark ocean]

he looked like he passed from age or disease

[sinful nimbus]

narrative weight is dead

The Sharpe upscales are coming

[stark ocean]

wait not age

[blissful harbor]

nether of which would kill him

pretty shitty eternal god ruler if age and disease are road blocks

[stark ocean]

it just doesnt look like anyone physically beat him to death

[ember river]

Higher Beings can't be killed even by regular weapons, if some random bacteria could kill them it would be pretty dumb

[blissful harbor]

he killed himself

[ember river]

You can't "beat to death" a higher being from what we know

[stark ocean]

how tho

[sinful nimbus]

Sharpe could've choked him to death with his long nose

[stark ocean]

the knight did this to about 2 higher beings

[ember river]

The knight killed no higher being with its nail alone

[frank dove]

I mean they generate soul

But maybe you could just be better

[blissful harbor]

idk maybe he pulls a palpating and just died then and there of grief
maybe he poisoned himself somehow
i don’t think the how is what matters

[foggy stratus]

I always interpret it as those who defy that are under their service.

[ember river]

Grimm isn't the nightmare heart nor is the nightmare heart dead, and the Radiance needed to be absorbed into the void to die, that's why the Pale King didn't just go inside and fight her himself, or send an army of children to fight her all at once

[blissful harbor]

she’s talking about hornet refusing to work with them

[frank dove]

True true

[ember river]

The only thing we've seen that can kill HBs is either the Void, or fading over time

[sinful nimbus]

Grimm is the nightmareheart but yeah

[frank dove]

What even is binding

[ember river]

Grimm is an avatar of the nightmare heart

[frank dove]

How does that work lore-wise

[blissful harbor]

it’s like focus but silk themed

[ember river]

Not exactly the same but closely related

[stark ocean]

the nightmare heart still lives in our grimmchild

[ember river]

I'd say that it absorbs the essence of that creature into the weaver

[ember river]

Yeah, that's what the ritual's for

[sinful nimbus]

they're all considered the same entity this isn't really a line the game draws

[frank dove]

I think we should point out the shades didn't even confirmed kill radiance in dream no more

[sinful nimbus]

"all and one, clan and master" and all that

[ember river]

I mean, by what we see in silksong, Radiance's fucked

She got dragged down to the abyss and even if she didn't die then and there she's going to die soon enough

[frank dove]

But they can't do it on everything? Why not bind the void

[ember river]

Oh no not everything

[blissful harbor]

void has no soul

it’s a soul thing

[ember river]

Everything with soul I'd say

Or everything with silk

[frank dove]

Void eats soul so ig that makes sense

[blissful harbor]

she’s absorbing the experience in the soul
it’s like crest but in a different way

[frank dove]

Prob how pk died

[blissful harbor]

silk and soul are the same thing

[ember river]

Yeah that's my theory

[frank dove]

How does she heal by binding her own experience

[ember river]

Unless TC wants to make it so he shed his shell once more and fucked off elsewhere

[ember river]

She binds silk into her body, healing her wounds

[blissful harbor]

she heals by wrapping her wounds with magic bandages

bind doesn’t just mean one thing
like how focus doesn’t just mean one thing

[ember river]

Silk is basically soul that can be more easily used

[frank dove]

So they just have the same name??

[blissful harbor]

it can mean to heal or to absorb

[ember river]

The technique is the same, where and how she applies it varies

Silk skills are probably figments of the mind or something

[blissful harbor]

youre not healing when you focus a dreaming for instance
same way hornet isn’t healing when she binds a crest or whatever

[ember river]

And crests are something else entirely

So when she binds GMS for example, she's binding her nature onto her own, and ascending into a higher being herself

Same as Focusing was basically just "manipulating soul"

The Hollow Knight for instance does it during the PV fight to cast massive explosions around him, or summon daggers

[frank dove]

Does radiance do anything I wonder

Those orbs are prob just like soul master

And all attacks

ok nvm that was a stupid question

[paper mantle]

What about Greyroot Child?

[frank dove]

It also eats soul, similarly to void

[ember river]

Greyroot is a parasite, it just consumes Hornet and GMS and ascends itself as the Higher Being

[ember river]

It's not really like void I'd say

[blissful harbor]

didn’t really kill her
same as hornet in weaver queen it absorbed her

[ember river]

Soul master's orbs are actually pretty unique, they're a mix of soul and the infection

[frank dove]

Agreed, I just meant they both take your soul

[ember river]

Yeah, except void actually just erases it

[paper mantle]

[ember river]

I find it funny that the secret ending is the absolutely worst fate for everyone, even worse than Hornet just dying at the Abyss and the void annihilating Pharloom

[foggy stratus]

Zi also seemed to have been under the assumption that Hornet was working under the Masters. Seeing as they thought she was sent by them to Zi.

[frank dove]

Parasite is wl, who can time travel

It is canon because it lets hk happen

And silksong is sequel to hk

[ember river]

The cursed child ending being canon and the entire HK universe being a time loop that violates causality would be hilarious

Though sadly it doesn't make much sense since the White Lady kinda speaks to Hornet during Red Memory

[frank dove]

I still don't know if wl is actually in her head somehow or hornet is imagining the conversation

It def seems like they are actually talking to each other

[ember river]

I'd say she actually talks with her

[frank dove]

How

[ember river]

Dunno, probably the same way she can notice the Knight accessing her mind

Weaver memory magic

[frank dove]

What does wl have to do with weavers

[ember river]

Oh, I meant that the spell was detected by her somehow, I have no idea how it even works

[foggy stratus]

Shaman Memory Magic*

[ember river]

But she's a pale being, long range communication is probably within her reach

[ember river]

Oh yeah very true

[frank dove]

There are actually patterns in creatures that can resist/react to dream nail/singing

[ember river]

The weaver magic is only creating the object

[frank dove]

People say grayroot just chooses not to sing, but we should point out wl knows when you dream nail her too

[whole holly]

palestag also seems to be aware when they are in memory, hornet is aware as well, white lady too, we are missing PK and GMS confirmation, i would say GMS's memory manipulation counts as significant

[frank dove]

And nosk and skynx both have no dreamnail/needolin dialogue

[ember river]

The only creatures actually forced to sing are the ones with silk within them, pretty sure the others just sing because they're devoted pilgrims

[frank dove]

Bardoon and seer too but not sure about those

[foggy stratus]

Nosk has Dreamnail Dialogue, its just blank.

[ember river]

Nosk IIRC has no dreamnail dialogue because it mimics the thoughts of the Knight

[frank dove]

Yes ik

[ember river]

Which are empty (kind of)

[frank dove]

Winged nosk too though?

[whole holly]

yea, greyroot has no silk in her, or fayforn, greyroot saps the life force probably

[ember river]

That just carries over

[foggy stratus]

Same with Shadow Creepers.

[ember river]

Palestag?

[frank dove]

Interesting

[ember river]

Palestag HB defenders should go extinct with Verdania

Yeah basically anything with void has no readable thought

[whole holly]

well yea, needolin disappears when they are killed

[frank dove]

Does anything in abyss react to needoling in silksong

[foggy stratus]

Except Collector. And Kingsmolds.

[frosty gate]

No

[ember river]

Collector and kingsmoulds are edge cases

[frank dove]

Wait hornet knows when you dream nail her?

[frosty gate]

They've got soul so its kind of a cheat

[whole holly]

i am not conflating palestag with hb, where did you get that from but paleness/soul is associated with some memory awareness or manipulation

[whole holly]

i think in godhome

[blissful harbor]

she’s aware when she is dreaming, not of the dream nail

[ember river]

Kingsmoulds are constructs made by the Pale King, and their instructions seem to be engraved in their outer shells

[frank dove]

Ok

[frosty gate]

Not exactly, she just knows shes in a dream

[frank dove]

Does dream nailing nosk give soul

I assume yes

[ember river]

So do shades, and collector doesn't give you soul on hit

[frosty gate]

It should

[ember river]

If anything, I'd say that collector is a symptom about how void/soul creatures still have the potential to develop a mind under certain circumstances

[whole holly]

that's what i meant by memory/dream awareness, which is something

[foggy stratus]

Gargant Gloom gives the "..." when you needoline.

[ember river]

Because by no means should a shell-less kingsmould be able to operate on their own

[frank dove]

It kind of seems like the things that have any relation to soul know you are dream nailing/needolining them

Like void eats soul

[ember river]

Eh, mainly powerful enough creatures

[frank dove]

Parasite takes soul

[ember river]

Bardoon for example

[frosty gate]

Shades don't have soul, its in the name.

Its been talked here thst The Collector's mind is an imprint of the Key of Love bug

[ember river]

Void consumes everything

[frank dove]

And seer

[blissful harbor]

i mean
why not, the imprint is on the actual void part itself we see thst with with mould in the palace
as long as you’re careful, should just be a squishy body

[whole holly]

it seeks soul mostly

[frank dove]

Wait isn't their some relation between essence and soul

Or am I remembering wrong

[frosty gate]

It doesn't seek, it just takes

[whole holly]

Hornet dialogue with Shakra: "I know it well, that force, its nature. If it senses soul, it will drive voracious towards it."

[ember river]

They still have the glowy white eyes from the collector and wingsmoulds, though I guess they'd be the empty part of the Vessel, while the shell contains and produces soul

I do agree with the imprint part, I just meant that it could develop thought in specific cases instead of basically being a robot like regular Kingsmoulds are

[ember river]

Essence, too

[whole holly]

some yes, nothing too concrete, there is some overlap

[frosty gate]

Yeah but Soul has to be in the vicinity, to seek for Soul would be to roam around looking for it

[ember river]

The core forces of the world drive it

But if you throw a rock into the sea of void it will annihilate it all the same, probably more slowly but it gets consumed

[whole holly]

Essence?? is there statement like this made about essence : Hornet dialogue with Shakra: "I know it well, that force, its nature. If it senses soul, it will drive voracious towards it."

[frosty gate]

I'm half tempted to say thats just an artistic choice since it makes no sense for them to have soul

[frank dove]

Fayforn too

[ember river]

No, the entire first game is about the Pale King trying to use void to kill a god of essence

[foggy stratus]

What about Void?

[frank dove]

Wdym

[foggy stratus]

No, he uses Void to seal one.

[whole holly]

i didn't specify presence but i provided context for what i meant

[ember river]

Yeah, fair, same case for the collector then

[blissful harbor]

not because it interacts with essence the same way as soul

[frank dove]

I just meant has control over singing dialogue

[foggy stratus]

I meant Fayforn. Crossed wires between reading and typing stuff.

[frank dove]

Just throwing in another thing that doesn't have dialogue

Bell beast too

[blissful harbor]

void basically our rights consumes and destroys soul
it can destroy essence but that’s not what PK was using it for, he was using it for it’s (mostly) empty minded properties to try and seal her

[whole holly]

that's not void seeking soul like it does for soul : Hornet dialogue with Shakra: "I know it well, that force, its nature. If it senses soul, it will drive voracious towards it."

[ember river]

Aight, true

Two of the endings are about void destroying her anyways

[frank dove]

Void destroys void

[frosty gate]

Yeah, Collector only has Imprint which I guess lets it stay corporeal. The Moulds have soul tho, im pretty sure its the armor that gives soul

[blissful harbor]

yea

[frank dove]

Bardoon is white

[whole holly]

yea it is Rune-etched Pale Shell

[ember river]

I'm not quite sure of what an imprint is or isn't since Siblings are able to remain corporeal (and seemingly are immortal)
But yeah, the soul part of these things probably goes on the outer shell

[frank dove]

Is there a chance he is pale

[ember river]

No

[blissful harbor]

no

[frank dove]

ok

[blissful harbor]

pale and white aren’t the same

[frank dove]

Ik

[blissful harbor]

hes not even the right kind of white

too much grey

[ember river]

Nor are all beings of a pale colour pale beings

Like that fraud palestag

[whole holly]

i think they are just ancient and aware

[frank dove]

Well he is questionable to even exist

[foggy stratus]

Amazing quote.

[whole holly]

you mean stag touched pale

[ember river]

Verdfraudia propagandists strike once again

[frank dove]

I wonder if this 'awareness' is what makes all of them resist

[ember river]

Probably

[frosty gate]

The Imprint is what in BS books would be called "Intent".

Is kinda like their coding to do something

It's kinda made up by the community, but it makes sense

[frank dove]

Maybe what mask makers and mr mushroom have

[whole holly]

Palestag's existence in form we see it can be doubted, but i do think it was Pale touched and it did exist

[frank dove]

But all of those react to dream nail and needolin

[ember river]

Ah, yeah I get you

Kinda like vessels are still drawn back to Hallownest every so often

[whole holly]

some of them do have Extrasensory Awareness, Bardoon is weird in retrospect to silksong, because why does large bug randomly know more about us that we do?

[frosty gate]

Yeah. In the case of Shades they still linger because Rad is active

[frank dove]

But fayforn can supposedly give insight

Insight and a dress with feathers are not the same thing btw

[blissful harbor]

hes just old and has been around

[whole holly]

that doesn't explain him sensing Void Heart

[frosty gate]

Dont make me defend the Palestag, last time I was here I went from hating the thought of it being real to actually gaslighting myself into believing it is

[foggy stratus]

Hes magic. Been soaking up Wyrm radiation for years.

[ember river]

Doesn't Hornet notice it too?

[spark valve]

it existed just not in the way it does in the dream

[ember river]

Bardoon could just know where to look

[blissful harbor]

he senses the HBness of TK not VH itself

[whole holly]

hornet has more interesting linage to justify it

[whole holly]

they correlate

[frank dove]

Guys I Just realized

[ember river]

We literally know nothing about where Bardoon comes from or what he is

[frank dove]

Bardoon is an envoy

And/or puny penitent

[ember river]

If a Shaman knew it you wouldn't bat an eye

[blissful harbor]

they do but it’s a different enoticing someone has a god aura and noticing they have void
hes just a smart dude imo

[frank dove]

He has the same horns on his head

[blissful harbor]

[frosty gate]

That's what im saying, im tempted to think it did exist like that. That it WAS an actually mythical creature which controlled the forest

[whole holly]

because it actually makes sense for them as species

[frank dove]

He is probably haunted, that explains everything

[blissful harbor]

i mean we know nothing about caterpillars

[ember river]

We have NO IDEA about bardoon's species what are you talking about

[blissful harbor]

they could all be like thst yoi don’t know

hes called an old caterpillar

[frosty gate]

Does it?

[frank dove]

Caterpillars turn into moths or butterflies

[whole holly]

i am talking about fact that it makes sense for shaman species, just because i like pancakes doesn't mean i hate waffles

[blissful harbor]

in our world

[foggy stratus]

I think they were referring to the Shamans.

[frank dove]

So he is either going to turn into trobbio or radiance

[blissful harbor]

in HK butterflies are born butterflies and moths are made by god

[whole holly]

i was, thank you

[foggy stratus]

Magical soul snails? Yeah it does.

[ember river]

I know, I'm just saying that he shouldn't think Bardoon isn't on the level of Shamans, or even above

We know he can notice, so we build up what he can do from there and not the other way around

[whole holly]

we have options like Trobbio, Radiance, Marissa, Fayforn

[frosty gate]

This is about VH right?

[blissful harbor]

as in, youre saying it doesn’t make sense for barrooms species
when we have no reference for his species

[frank dove]

Sometimes I feel like we are trying to figure stuff out that is just a plot hole

[foggy stratus]

I thought it was about Dreamnail awareness.

[ember river]

Bardoon being the child of the Radiance just waiting to become a moth god is a hilarious idea

[frank dove]

That too, isn't the bug fayorn is based off a moth???

[blissful harbor]

fayforn looks like a wooly aphid to me

[foggy stratus]

Fucked up looking moth.

[whole holly]

i am not saying that? don't put words in my mouth...

[frank dove]

Agreed

[frosty gate]

I was pretty sure it was a VH, moving on

[blissful harbor]

i am saying what i took from that, that’s what the logic of your statement follows
“it’s makes sense for snails to kkow thst information” (in response to bardoon knows this and you wouldn’t bat an eye if a shaman did)
what is the difference when you wouldn’t know if caterpillars did
i’m just confused

[whole holly]

but bardoon is unknown species, people can find it weird that they know everything out of nowhere , they are basically there to tell us lore and everything

[ember river]

It's not weird precisely because he's of an unknown species

[whole holly]

people can have different opinions

[ember river]

It'd be weird if Emilitia suddenly came in teaching us how to do a void tendril attack like Pure Vessel or something because she's not really built to know about that

[whole holly]

we don't know anything about bardoon and he knows pretty much everything about tk, in retrospect to silksong i find it weirdly unfitting into worldbuilding which is my opinion that's not up for debate

[ember river]

Bardoon is set from the start as a very knowledgeable, old and sagely individual, it checks out that he knows about it

[blissful harbor]

the only thing bardoon knows is about wyrms, and likewise with wyrms likely all being HBs, hes able to sense TK’s newfound godliness

there is nothing strange about what he knows

[ember river]

In silksong we know nothing about a random root parasite that can take over higher beings and we just roll with it

[blissful harbor]

he doesn’t know about the inner working of the vessel project or anything

he knows surface level shit about TK

[whole holly]

because we know and we are introduce to their lifecycle as species

[ember river]

Yeah, so if it's that easy to assume it works, then why can't you assume Bardoon may have gathered enough knowledge over his lifespan

[whole holly]

Void Heart definitely isn't surface level, i would argue he knows more about TK after Void Heart than even White Lady does, as in sensing his nature

[ember river]

And I'm pretty sure there are several remarks about the Knight's nature throughout the game from different characters

Void Heart changes its entire nature

[blissful harbor]

he does not sense void heart he senses the godliness given off by it
there is a huge difference

he does not know what void heart is, he jst knows TK has risen above PK

[ember river]

It's a different feel in the aura the Knight expels, and it's probably different from pretty much every single living creature

Including HBs

[blissful harbor]

and again he doesn’t sense anything really hes just like wow thst quality, surely it could rival the wyrm
maybe surpass it

and that’s it

like it’s not something. crazy like you’re making it seem

[random harbor]

Bardoon - General - Reacting to Void Heart

Ohhhmmmm... Tiny thing... It evolves beyond that Wyrm. Such union in a single being. A strength before unseen. Would it too challenge nature? It could perhaps defeat it.

@lexmolten used /npcs misc name: Bardoon category: General dialogue: Reacting to Void Heart

[ember river]

Compare it to someone with a lot more insight in the White Lady, who actually fully recognizes the change between the Kingsoul and the Void Heart

[whole holly]

"Void Heart(referring to dialogue after obtaining it) definitely isn't surface level, i would argue he knows more about TK after Void Heart than even White Lady does(not referring to Void Heart directly but rather "godliness given off by it" in your own words), as in sensing his nature"

[ember river]

Bruh

[sinful nimbus]

"Such union in a single being"

Why is this channel slandering bardoon what happened

Bro has world sense or something

[ember river]

Nick basically says it makes no sense for bardoon to know things

[whole holly]

idk, he can sense whatever void heart changes about knight

[ember river]

Me when the sagely unique character is sagely and knows stuff

[ember river]

Anyone with a bit of insight can tell it changes things

And bardoon is clearly aware of several of the higher forces at play

[foggy stratus]

Bardoon has been soaking up Wyrm ash for who knows how long. He knows things.

[whole holly]

that's not what i am "basically saying", it is out of place that we get no more information about him and he stays are lore-teller

[sinful nimbus]

wyrm flakes...

[whole holly]

wyrm dandruff...

[ember river]

Why should we get more information, until Silksong the mask maker was just some random presenting lore that doesn't come up again

[sinful nimbus]

A wise old dude being magically inclined doesn't seem that out of place in a fantasy world

[whole holly]

i am saying that in retrospect to silksong

[ember river]

So we should have gotten a second bardoon exposing bardoon species lore you say?

[whole holly]

Mask Maker, Snail Shamans are faction that are unique in their abilities

[whole holly]

we should know as much about him as we know about greyroot, realistically

[spark valve]

the old forest hermit with a suspiciously pointed sagging hat telling you stuff about the nature of the universe? probably crazy

[ember river]

His.. reproductive cycle?

[whole holly]

i said as much, not same type of information

[ember river]

We know as much:
-He's pretty old and knowledgeable about the world
-He has a pretty keen sense and can detect certain changes that to most others are unnoticeable
-He's not a wyrm, but has seen enough of how they act, enough in fact to claim that they're extinct

[foggy stratus]

Because Wyrm forbid we have mysterious charecters.

[whole holly]

besides what is with people trying to change my opinions, if you don't find it out of place, that's good for you, it's not mandatory for everyone to share same opinion, idk why this channel thinks it is

[whole holly]

greyroot is mysterious, though

[ember river]

Again, how is greyroot any better than Bardoon

[foggy stratus]

I was referring to Bardoon.

[whole holly]

greyroot gets whole arc and stays mysterious

[ember river]

Also, it's not so much your opinion I have issue with but your double standards

And weak justifications

[ember river]

The arc is just being a parasite, that's all it adds

[whole holly]

so how would bardoon lose mysterious-ness if they had as much as information about greyroot?

[ember river]

We probably have more info about Bardoon than about Greyroot

[foggy stratus]

Why do you want more information on him? What about him irks you so unbelievably much you feel to justify his knowledgeable he requires as much if not more information about him as Greyroot? Who's literally just a God eating parasite.

[whole holly]

he is outlier when comparing to all species with similar abilities, he feels like part of story that will never be mentioned again and only serves purpose to tell us lore because protagonist can't talk in first game

[ember river]

It makes the world a lot smaller if the only creatures that are allowed to know about higher beings are like, 5

[whole holly]

i need to justify opinions? should i get a lawyer?

[foggy stratus]

Typically yeah. Or else it just feels weak.

[whole holly]

it's an opinion? not a lawsuit

[ember river]

When you're talking about narrative choices being good or bad, generally you do

"Oh yeah the Pale King being just a corpse is a bad decission in my opinion"
"Why though?"
"Me no likey"

[whole holly]

Even talking about narrative choices, it’s still subjective.

[whole holly]

even if person writes a paragraph, it is still subjective

[ember river]

I'm not sure "subjective" means what you think it means

[foggy stratus]

"I think this show sucks."
"Why?"
"Why are you asking for a reason? Its my opinion."

[whole holly]

It means I think the writing for Bardoon is a bit random, and you don't. That is literally the definition of a subjective take. We aren't solving a physics or math equation, we're talking about a bug's lore.

[ember river]

Objective means the reason is absolute and cannot be denied because it's an undisputable truth. Subjective stuff still needs a reason, a justification, but it varies from person to person

[whole holly]

i don't know why false equivalence is necessary? if you feel need to refute my reasons why should i provide them?

[ember river]

Because otherwise it just sounds like a shit take

[foggy stratus]

Because these channels are built for debating lore and we asked.

[whole holly]

Exactly. It literally varies from person to person. the justification feels weak to you, it feels fine to me. That’s the variation. You’re arguing against your own definition now.

[whole holly]

i did give my opinion, and this wasn't a good faith discussion

[ember river]

Bad faith = Didn't agree with me immediately and took issue with my claims

[foggy stratus]

Yet you dont give reasons from my recollection. And tbh it kinda feels like you either dont have reasons or you realize your reasons are bad and refuse to share them.

[whole holly]

ad hominem

[whole holly]

i have, scroll up?

[ember river]

Let me put it in another way
This channel discusses lore, worldbuilding, the story, etc.
You went and said Bardoon doesn't really make much sense in the worldbuilding
I asked why and presented you with a similar example of a character that you think makes more sense
"It's just an opinion no need to be like that"

God forbid a dicussion in the discussion channel

[foggy stratus]

Wyrm forbid*

[ember river]

Unn forbid

[paper mantle]

Soul premium

[ember river]

Soulspaghetti

[paper mantle]

Hahahahaha

XD

[whole holly]

only reason why people interacted with my opinion that's inherently subjective is so that they can "disprove it" and argue in bad faith, pedantic and ad hominems

[paper mantle]

It's so good

[ember river]

Lugoni's masterpiece was silk with muckroach sauce

[paper mantle]

Hi Nick, what questions from the first game would you have liked to see answered in Silksong?

[foggy stratus]

I love refusing to even consider changing my opinion despite people providing reasons why it's silly.

[whole holly]

There’s a difference between a discussion and literal interrogation. I gave you my reasons: I think he’s a narrative outlier and an exposition tool. You didn't like those reasons, so you pivoted to ad hominem, called my take 'shit,' and tried to lecture me on the dictionary.

[whole holly]

ad hominen

[foggy stratus]

Uh huh.

Even tho thats basically what you were doing.

[ember river]

You literally went into the lore discussion channel, threw a conflicting view on the lore and outright refused to acknowledge any possibility of debate, that's the difference between a regular discussion and this conversation

[whole holly]

when have i attacked your persona

[solar gale]

200th shitass debate in the lore channel

[foggy stratus]

When did i ever claim you did?

[ember river]

Fandom moment

[whole holly]

that's what ad hominem means

[ember river]

Yeah, you've thrown it around a few times and it's completely wrong lol

[whole holly]

I considered them though, I just didn't find them convincing. That’s how opinions work. If discussion to you means 'keep talking until Nick agrees with me, then it is bad faith discussion

[foggy stratus]

Yeah I know but when did I ever say that you had done it to me.

[ember river]

Ad homimen would be "your opinion is wrong, just look at his deltarune server tag"

[whole holly]

more than one type of ad hominem can exist? creating caricatures of person can fall under it

[foggy stratus]

I was referring to the whole opinion thing.

[ember river]

It would be a caricature if you didn't derail the entire conversation into opinion semantics. And no, that's not an opinion, that's an objective truth

[whole holly]

i saw that you responded to ad hominem comment and followed up with it

[whole holly]

you were semantic about my opinion? Calling your own interpretation of a video game character an 'objective truth' is the most delusional thing I've heard all day. There is no 'objective truth' about whether a narrative choice is good or bad, that is the literal definition of a subjective critique. You’re just proving my point.

[solar gale]

bro what are we even arguing about

[ember river]

He said that what you were doing was literally the thing you replied "ad hominem" to

[ember river]

He basically said Bardoon doesn't make much sense in the worldbuilding and we disagreed

[ember river]

The truth is that you derailed the conversation into opinion semantics

[foggy stratus]

Nick called Bardoon an outlier and seemingly has devolved into flinging terms around as a baseless defense of their character.

[ember river]

You know, the thing I said right before that phrase

[whole holly]

you are flinging insulting statements...

[foggy stratus]

But hey, its just my opinion so he can't argue it

[whole holly]

The only thing that derailed this was you trying to turn a preference into a logic puzzle

[solar gale]

Bardoon is the only character with a smackable ass so I think that's all we need to speak on him

[whole holly]

i shared my reasons for it, but you guys didn't engage with them, you started throwing ad hominems around

[foggy stratus]

Sure...

Anyways bye.

[ember river]

Going into the lore channel and randomly saying "this character doesn't really fit with the worldbuilding" then refusing to elaborate is not really something you can just wave away as "just an opinion"

Yeah this is pointless see ya

[whole holly]

"I think he’s a narrative outlier and an exposition tool."