sk-lore

[cyan blaze]

wait how does The Knight fit into that though like

they don't remember the Birthplace so its implied they don't have their memories either yet so unlike Quirrel why was only that lost

is it just the same thing as Hornet where being born to the Pale King and the White Lady in this case counts as sapience not given by the kingdom or

[fresh badger]

Iirc the explanation most people have come up with is just. Trauma repression or whatever, the Abyss is a big deal emotionally for The Knight based on Hornet and White Lady's dialogue

[limpid summit]

Yeah this

The imprinted void mind should still have natural sapience

[sick tinsel]

is there any chance we see hornets (actual hornets) in next updates or wasps ?

[swift needle]

Born of god and void

[visual glacier]

doubtful

maybe in a godmaster eqsue update we could get a vespa fight

[sick tinsel]

it would be peak

hornets hive

[visual glacier]

i dont think it would be that interesting

hornet is from a hive we've already visited

full of bees not hornets

[jagged sun]

I think that it might have protection like Quirrel's because of its parents being higher beings, but since they're a bit weird when it comes to normal things, vessels might just have less or something?

[unreal dew]

why does the conductor keeps doing his thing even though the GMS is already awaken?

[twin dragon]

he doesn't

Ballador is clinging on wtv life is left

[frank dove]

Also, gms doesn't wake up until the end of act 2, remember how at the start she says 'come witness our waking'

And in act 3 after gms is awake, he's dead

[unreal dew]

if she isn't awaken then how is she controlling the haunted bugs?

[twin dragon]

she's doing it while not entirely conscious

[echo prawn]

Guys is there any theory or lore for mask fragments distrubuted throughout the verse, like grub has collector and flea has caravan. So what's the reason for mask shard?

[frank dove]

She dreams about it like nubbie said

[ionic void]

why does the screen sometimes start shaking and some screams can be heard like the void is influencing the kingdom even more

[twin dragon]

not exactly, moreso her memories are tied to the haunted bugs

[twin dragon]

i assume you have fought gms

[ionic void]

i finished the game i js need to get 100%

[twin dragon]

you can figure it out yourself

whos in the void rn

[ionic void]

oh its hers screams?

[twin dragon]

yeah

[frank dove]

Ah ok

[sick tinsel]

should teamcherry add hornets so we get hornet vs hornet

[dapper willow]

hornet vs roaring knight

when will team cherry add roaring knight

[cursive sinew]

its literally called Pure Vessel

bro literally stabs the ground with his Nail too

[near jasper]

Lowkey the knight is absurdly fucked in that fight

[frank dove]

Hornet gets 1 shot, knight is the one with shade cloak (tk not roaring knight)

[candid linden]

is the grand gate elevator broken on purpose

[harsh lagoon]

If ur talking abt the hollow knight maybe but pure vessel ya hornet ain't surviving

Yes

[candid linden]

why does he get hurt she cant even take fall damage

[fading shard]

Okay ghost vs the roaring knight is a easy win for lil ghost, hornet vs the roaring knight is going to result in the death of hornet

[harsh lagoon]

Who?

[fading shard]

people genuinely overestimate hornet sometimes and forget how much weaker she is then practically all higher beings, and those who use her "beating" gms ignore the context of that being a loss for hornet as well

[fading shard]

the playable character of hollow knight is referred to as "ghost" by hornet another title some of the fanbase refer to IT as

[harsh lagoon]

Oh ya i was confused he was talking abt it

[frank dove]

He's talking about roaring knight

Character from deltarune

Another game

[dapper willow]

Woosh

The joke failed

[fading shard]

hornet dies miserably to the roaring knight or as some like to say "the roaring fraud"

[dapper willow]

I know absolutely nothing about the roaring knight but I believe in hornet
She can pull out a w

[fading shard]

she cannot, she is not that strong

[foggy stratus]

Yeah. The Knight on the other hand...

[fading shard]

Hornet is stronger then most mortals in hollow knights universe sure, but if she was to beat the roaring knight she'd have to be at the level somebody say the radiance or the pale king are in

[fading shard]

the knight makes the roaring fraud beg for mercy

The knight is genuinely gonna call upon the entire void to it's aid and summon a bunch of tendrils to hold the roaring knight down as it slaps them to death

[foggy stratus]

She'd have to be an actual Higher Being. Not just half Wyrm and half Muffet Weaver.

[dapper willow]

If you ask me can hornet beat goku
I say yes

[foggy stratus]

It gonna give TRK a reason to be roaring.

[fading shard]

exactly, we're literally showcased with gms, that she can't even BIND higher beings, because her personality and identity get's overriten and replaced that simillar to that of the higher being she binds

honestly she literally get's worried about binding eva for that reason yet in one of the endings she's bold enough to that to gms, and straight up loses in a different way

[frank dove]

I know absolutely nothing about goku but I believe in hornet
She can pull out a w

[foggy stratus]

In her defense, getting all crests may not be canon in Weaver Queen ending. But I have no proof for this.

[fading shard]

she's not even hornet anymore that's just gms with a few small differences left over

[fading shard]

okay that is true

[frank dove]

I think she has no other choice

Gms would just wake up?

Idk but she autogenerates soul

So she can heal herself constantly

[foggy stratus]

Unravel her and weave her into a very thin hospital gown.

[frank dove]

Good idea

Except the hospital gown would be growing

Hornet would have to increase her food consumption

[foggy stratus]

Have Lace absorb the excess Silk.

[fading shard]

okay gms is shown and said to not be anywhere close to the soul prowess of the pale kings, as her silk is said to be able to spun thin and needed to bind the whatever part weavers for their silk

[frank dove]

Then lace would get fat

[foggy stratus]

She burns the silk at the same rate she gains new silk from GMS.

[frank dove]

Maybe if she becomes fluffy she fits hornet's type better

[fading shard]

where as with kingsoul a charm literally called "KINGsoul" showcases that the pale king can just nigh infinitely regenerate it has basically the best showcase of soul power in universe, with him having nigh infinite of it and being able to pump a bunch of soul into some random totems

[frank dove]

Wait is that true

Or a joke

[foggy stratus]

Mostly true.

She needs a near constant stream of silk iirc.

[fading shard]

it's mostly true

[foggy stratus]

Part of how GMS kept her loyal.

[near jasper]

Whats the topic rn

[dapper willow]

I dont think hornet's personality gets overwritten in the normal ending

But there is nothing saying what that entails for her either way

[fading shard]

horf imagine the insanity the pale king could do with soul if we could get to see it live

[frank dove]

Wait where does it say that

It gets eaten by void

And phantom isn't being given silk

Gms is asleep too

[fading shard]

like does some crazy as hell stuff off screen with it and we know he is insane with just with the little info we got so seeing it live would be exciting

[near jasper]

We dont even know if gms was binding the weavers for silk

[foggy stratus]

GMS seeing a Soul beam thrice the size of PK's Wyrm form coming at her(she thought he was a fraud):

[frank dove]

She prolly just hated them

And wait how did she bind them when she was asleep

Where did they go

Wouldn't she have to wake up for that

[near jasper]

Oh yk

[fading shard]

true

[dapper willow]

Also i think normal ending hornet, or whatever she becomes is stronger than what gms would be at full power

Because while silk was being a bum sitting in her cocoon, hornet was out and about murdering everything that moves and growing her skills

[foggy stratus]

A small theory I have is that the weird silk cocoon things on the floor of the room GMS is in are the Weavers that got encased in it and slowly consumed like a Sarlack pit.

[limpid summit]

I like this theory

[frank dove]

Wait do you have an ss of that

[fading shard]

actually pretty cool theory

[limpid summit]

Crazy how we only get one line about why GMS actually wants Hornet it’s really simple and we don’t see it happen to any other Weaver

[foggy stratus]

No:(

But you can probably either go see it yourself or find an image of it.

[frank dove]

None on wiki

[candid linden]

does there being wings mold in the red dream mean hornet has been to the white palace

[foggy stratus]

Yes.

[candid linden]

how did she get in without dream nail

[dapper willow]

Why would anyone think she wasnt?

[foggy stratus]

It wasnt always in the Dream Realm.

[limpid summit]

She had been in the white palace before it was moved

[dapper willow]

Taking the elevator?
It wasnt always in the dream

Even if it was in the dream I think her dad would have let her in

[candid linden]

did the pale king care about her

[fading shard]

.........the white palace was placed in the pale kings space in the dream realm after the infection returned which happened after several generations of bugs worth of time passed

[foggy stratus]

Probably too an extent.

[near jasper]

Hornet had dream needle not dream nail

[frank dove]

I don't see any cocoons

Those are just silk draped on things

And rocks

[candid linden]

why did lost lace survive the void but not gormond

[frank dove]

Yeah they look like the rocks from other places

[candid linden]

also whats a silk heart

[dapper willow]

Luve debunking
A sad age for crack theories

[candid linden]

and why do we have laces

[near jasper]

Lace did not have It in her internal organs

[frank dove]

Bc garmond is unc

[candid linden]

huh

[near jasper]

It's

[limpid summit]

When it comes to blackthreading the micro silk inside bugs is voided tearing them apart

[frank dove]

Lace is a young child

[limpid summit]

So regular bugs are dead

[dapper willow]

Gaemond is an old guy half in the grave already

[limpid summit]

Lace has a different constitution cause she’s all silk

[near jasper]

Garmond slander

[fading shard]

The white palace wasn't always in the dream realm

[dapper willow]

More like glaze

Bro never gives up despite his age and presses on

[frank dove]

Don't disrespect garmond

[limpid summit]

Garmond slander

[frank dove]

He has the best voicelines in both games combined

[fading shard]

also I support what apple egg said

[fading shard]

grubs......

[frank dove]

Uh no

[foggy stratus]

Cornifer:

[frank dove]

Zanziboooooo

[sinful nimbus]

garmond pmo

[dapper willow]

Also i think if the pale king wanted to beat gms he would either send his kill squad at her or come up with a crazy invention

Shooting death beams would probably be a last resort. He a thinkerer not a fighter

[limpid summit]

“Wow you already built the town? Let me hole up and just sit there forever”

Pale king probably didn’t want to beat GMS

Well

As far as the Weavers knew GMS was still alive and kicking

[frank dove]

He'd just throw 1 saw blade at her

[sinful nimbus]

He was probably a fighter

[limpid summit]

Maybe if PV had been pure and PK had time to buddy up with the Weavers more they would have asked Hallownest to go kill GMS

[dapper willow]

https://tenor.com/view/noita-sawblade-disc-giga-disc-projectile-gif-19437630

[spark valve]

no he was probably a sorcerer

[sinful nimbus]

same thing

[limpid summit]

Probably a physical fighter too to an extent

[sinful nimbus]

you probably think Dryya taught PV how to use the nail

[limpid summit]

Mantises wouldn’t form a treaty with a dude who just teleported away and blasted

[fading shard]

we get several statements he would a beast though???

[near jasper]

How does garmond get to the citadel

[spark valve]

don't they literally use the same style of nail

[frank dove]

Bruh that made me realize act 3 is all lace's fault

Knight would've just saved hornet anyway

[limpid summit]

True…

[fading shard]

he's literally the second strongest higher being we know of

[frank dove]

Lace caused the problem by making gms care

[dapper willow]

That was his worm form

The king form is different

[sinful nimbus]

basically everyone uses the same style of nail 😭

[limpid summit]

Eh apparently TK isn’t directly attuned to void and has to zero in on it

[candid linden]

why would she even leave a hole in the coccoon?

[spark valve]

nuh uh

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[limpid summit]

To be fair I don’t mind LoS being nerfed because it makes TK less alien and it also explains VGFocus more

[near jasper]

For courier deliveries

[limpid summit]

Godseeker focus just allowed TK to control void with more precision and assume a larger form

[frank dove]

Plot convenience

[limpid summit]

Everbloom probably opened it up or something

Actually

[frank dove]

Who is 1st

[limpid summit]

Yeah plot convenience

[frank dove]

Nuu surely?

[dapper willow]

Maybe gms opened it up for hornet

Idk

[near jasper]

Me

[spark valve]

we aren't ready for the conversation about quirrel revek and thk sharing a teacher

[limpid summit]

Lord of shades is the strongest HB we know of

There’s no way Dryya taught Revek

[fading shard]

okay one, same thing and two I mean yeah he definitely was mainly a sorcerer given all his power statements are about his magical prowess and power not his skills with a blade

[near jasper]

I fuck With it

[limpid summit]

I don’t like that

[spark valve]

well revek is older he might've trained dryya and the style got passed down

[limpid summit]

Eh I could be convinced

Is Revek older??

I guess he might be

[spark valve]

bro he's in spirit's glade

[limpid summit]

Yeah the knights are all hella old too

What if he just died young

[frank dove]

Not wl?

[dapper willow]

I would say it more of an artificer

Blasting and inventing in one go

[spark valve]

then it's back to maybe shared a teacher

[limpid summit]

In combat but still

[frank dove]

Wl made the vessels if you think about it

[limpid summit]

WL has extremely potent powers

But like can she gift

Fight

Who knows

[dapper willow]

To some extent probably
Even Fraud Mother Silk can fight

[fallen zealot]

Am I the only one who hates Silksong's lore

[frank dove]

Yeah probably

[fading shard]

he literally trained the pure vessel in at the least it's spell usage, and we get several statements of his power feats and soul and light prowess to great magnitudes alongside seeing the insanity of how powerful his seals were and knowing he had bloody world sense

[spark valve]

it fumbles it in act 3 but otherwise it's pretty solid

[fallen zealot]

I'm gonna take you to court

[fading shard]

I call that being a very strong sorcerer

for what

[near jasper]

Why And when was spirits glade closed

[limpid summit]

It’s not as gripping as HK and as Tammo says act 3 is bad

But it’s like still a masterpiece

[fading shard]

we literally get mentions of him literally blindsighting people light the sun all by them looking at him (overexaggarating for joke)

[limpid summit]

Probably beginning of first wave

Half the warrior dreams have infection stories

None of the glade guys do

[frank dove]

Plot convenience episode 2

[spark valve]

[limpid summit]

Gameplay wise

Minus lost lace

[spark valve]

lost lace isn't even the worst boss

[limpid summit]

Man

[fallen zealot]

you Imma take you to court

[fading shard]

because the literal burieed deceased were being resurrected and the moths were being screwed over, at that point that place would be locked down

[limpid summit]

Have they released accessibility options yet

[limpid summit]

It’s only marginally worse than Bell Eater

TC nasty for that boss fight

[spark valve]

but it's a lot better than palestag, zango, ss, etc

[frank dove]

Ok

[dapper willow]

Bell eater hate is crazy
Its just an average fight

[fallen zealot]

Imma defend my case

[frank dove]

Get yourself a lawyer

[fallen zealot]

I am a lawyer

[frank dove]

I want to see if you can sue someone over saying a game's lore isn't bad

[spark valve]

you can't

[frank dove]

That explains your issue

[near jasper]

Team cherry deciding to make the equivalent of a deep sea leviathan in pharloom a mid fight that gets killed by the second boss

[limpid summit]

Who even fought Summoned Savior

[fallen zealot]

https://tenor.com/view/templehook-temple-hook-temple-certificate-undetected-gif-14970329888063230553

[spark valve]

bell eater is just a garpede and pharloom's power level is so low that that's a big deal

[fallen zealot]

heres my certificate

[fading shard]

actually this makes me wonder how did life even look for the royal retainers, and the pale court, did they all just build up an immunity or did they have to suffer through all their lives with feeling pain everytime time they saw their king

[limpid summit]

Bell Eater is a wyvern

[near jasper]

@tiem cherry give me Bellvein lore

[spark valve]

ur not him man

[limpid summit]

He is

Wyrms are dragons

[frank dove]

Bro got the animated diploma

[limpid summit]

Probably didn’t look at him too hard

[dapper willow]

They tried to not look at him straight

Or the pk probably could tone down his light level

[sinful nimbus]

lost lace made me cry idk

[fallen zealot]

just go with it and continue the gag

[limpid summit]

And he wasn’t like a servant oriented king he probably didn’t make them do a ton of personal stuff for him

[spark valve]

bell eater is coated in legs it's not a wyvern

[frank dove]

I am 😭

[limpid summit]

Okay fine

Behir

[near jasper]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1402002414630076607/1497049797226664016/RDT_20260409_0214224237683115478272182.gif

[near jasper]

Silksong lore

[fallen zealot]

so you start by defending sk lore

[frank dove]

sk lore is good because the slab has lore tablets

[candid linden]

where do normal weavers get their silk from

[fading shard]

that is absolutely true, but like the five great knights were around him at least a good amount

[sinful nimbus]

their own soul

[frank dove]

And I attempt to decipher them when everyone else says I am wrong

[dapper willow]

They make it in their bodies

[candid linden]

so what advantage does hornet have

[fading shard]

I can't imagine getting my eyes burned everytime I have to just look at my king, how does even do meetings with him

[sinful nimbus]

she can steal soul from other bugs

[candid linden]

is there a problem using your own soul

[foggy stratus]

He gives out sunglasses.

[sinful nimbus]

its limited

[spark valve]

you don't wanna use too much of it

[dapper willow]

Being a half higher being and premium level training and gear

Unlimited lifespan

Decades of experience

[candid linden]

can you replenish soul if youre not part pale?

[foggy stratus]

Yes. Its like using your own blood in blood magic.

[fallen zealot]

the slab is just an enslaved race of people that just try to work off there "sins"

[frank dove]

No they don't work them off

[spark valve]

you don't wanna open the door of evaluating the quality of ss's writing as it pertains to the slab

[frank dove]

They wait to die for their absolution

[near jasper]

Why do baby flies explode

[dapper willow]

Game design

[fallen zealot]

and why does hornet have a family little ghost deserves a family too

[limpid summit]

Gases in their stomach

[near jasper]

Hornet I dont care about your mein kampf fanfic tell me something about these flies

[dapper willow]

I refuse to talk about the quality of the lore

I have had my rounds back then and I had enough

[frank dove]

He does, even his relation to his parents is biologically questionable, other shades are called 'siblings' and another vessel is called 'lost kin'

[fading shard]

well no, in general soul usage shouldn't be a thing mortals should be capable of, the snail shamans are the only case of a species naturally being capable of manipulating soul everybody else either went against nature itself and did some horrid things to be capable of manipulating soul (and they can't even use their own source and need to take the souls of others, though the snail shamans do that too) or be the weavers who got gifted the ability to weave soul thanks to gms

[fallen zealot]

She has a gender a mother a father and worst offender DREAMS OF HER OWN

[near jasper]

Cant believe she broke precept 56

😔

https://tenor.com/view/my-goat-washed-my-goat-is-washed-washed-goat-your-goat-is-washed-mfw-my-goat-is-washed-gif-11435157539877774481

[dapper willow]

I think bugs can use their own soul for spells

Its just not a good idea

[fallen zealot]

I'm sorry I didn't memorized all the Zote Precepts

[frank dove]

Ok is that not a good thing for the lore?

[frank dove]

"Do not dream"

[fading shard]

they can't balaz

[tawdry flare]

why are you even in the lore channel

[near jasper]

Mods send them to the eternal ordeal

[foggy stratus]

Craw Menento should make all Craws neutral like how beating Mantis Lords make Mantsies neutral.

[fading shard]

the soul sanctum quite literally states as much

I'd agree but the craws are haunted

[frank dove]

I thought they could but it makes them inflate

[fallen zealot]

NOOOOOOOO NOT THE ETERNAL ORDEAL!!!

[frank dove]

Groal does

Soul sanctum if anything says they can

[dapper willow]

Nuh uh
But dont quote me on that

[frank dove]

Citadel bugs also use silk

[fading shard]

dude it's literally said and showcased that they had to go through agonizing and extreme experiments and tests to do so, and most of them weren't even capable of doing so and turned into mistakes

[fallen zealot]

Name me one sad occering thing in Hornet's life

[foggy stratus]

Herrah.

[frank dove]

Garmond dying

[fallen zealot]

by the way you're the Judge

[frank dove]

Herrah dying yeah ^

[near jasper]

4 parents dying lol

[fallen zealot]

she seems chill bout it

[fading shard]

yeah silk is quite different

[fallen zealot]

YOU ARE THE JUDGE

[frank dove]

Bro reminds me of annakin losing 5 limbs or something

[frank dove]

I disagree she said she deeply regretted it

[candid linden]

did hornet want to save lace or did she just want to defeat gms

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/tarantula-spider-boogie-dance-gif-1496542221627060498

[near jasper]

Both

[fading shard]

because of a snail shaman.........we literally see that he betrayed and did whatever the christ he did to the snail shaman to be capable of using soul

[dapper willow]

They turned into mistakes because of extensive soul usage and radiance influence probably

[candid linden]

what was hornets motivation the entire game

[near jasper]

Why can snail shamans use soul

[fading shard]

and the soul sanctum quite literally talked about how their attempts at using soul were failing and how much of a clear focus you needed

[candid linden]

was the soul master even able to fully control soul

[near jasper]

Getting to the citadel, killing gms, saving pharloom

[candid linden]

why did she wanna do this

[foggy stratus]

Natural aptitude.

[dapper willow]

I would take the soul sanctum peoples expertise with a grain of salt because they are lunatics influenced by a mad god

[candid linden]

she said she wants to see why she was kidnapped

[fading shard]

they had to put some crazy crystals on their heads, INJECT soul into themselves from others, kidnap a snail shaman for research and use a bunch of crazy devices, alongside most of their bodies not being capable of dealing with it and turning into follies and mistakes, so no mortals aren't supposed to be capable of using soul

[near jasper]

Why

[candid linden]

the knight is a mortal

[frank dove]

They use it though, it just harms them

The shaman groal ate is dead

He is using the power himself now

[harsh lagoon]

Cuz she saw her kindom get taken by the infection and also she has a mind to think

[dapper willow]

You are hitting rock bottom here

[near jasper]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1402002414630076607/1497049520461058098/rapidsave.com_68zzy6dhjvug1.gif

[fading shard]

yeah he had to use the power of a SNAIL SHAMN to do so '

[dapper willow]

Lore bedrock

[fading shard]

and the affects for the soul sanctum scholars is that they can literally hear whispers, have their minds ache, and swell from their deeds and more

[near jasper]

Dont snail shamans disprove mortals arent normally capabke of using soul

[fading shard]

I feel as though you guys need to look back at what happened to the soul sanctum and how hard it was for them to make it so even a few of them could manipulate soul and how much it costed them

[dapper willow]

Im pretty sure the shamans are mortal as well

[frank dove]

The point is they did

[fading shard]

tara I literally said the snail shamans are the exception

[frank dove]

You were saying they can't

[near jasper]

Oh I didnt see that

[frank dove]

Where am I misunderstanding

[dapper willow]

Hornet says in the groal entry that many people try to use the power of soul

[fading shard]

I said that they had to go against nature and go into extreme lengths to be capable of doing so

[frank dove]

Well yes I agree

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/immense-pain-bocchi-cy-gif-27342239

[dapper willow]

The citadel also puts souls into robots

[fading shard]

I didn't say it's impossible for mortals (other then the snail shamans) to manipulate soul I said that it's not something their mortal kind should be capable of doing and have to go to extreme lengths, experiments and conditions to be capable of doing so, and even then that still results in their bodies and minds having severe side affects

[near jasper]

Why did the citadel keep using silkflies for robots if they knew how to use normal soul for it like in cogwork dancers

[dapper willow]

Who knows

[fading shard]

because the weavers invented silkflies and used them for the sentinels and pimor so the conductors just sticked with that ig

[foggy stratus]

I think for them its more so the metaphysical soul instead of the substance soul.

[fading shard]

horf I just wanted to say you're goated and I appreciate you (I'm saying this just for the sake of showing appreciation)

[dapper willow]

Okay final thing on soul usage

Im gonna agree that its an extreme procedure or it requires ceuelty to do, but like the sanctum people were turbo crazy and probably shouldnt be taken as a baseline for soul usage problems

[fading shard]

........they are though

[foggy stratus]

Why thank you.

[dapper willow]

The ancient civilisation could use soul too

[foggy stratus]

They could contain it.

[near jasper]

Why does gms shed silk

[foggy stratus]

She's like a husky ig

[dapper willow]

They are like 1 of 3 examples of it and 1 of those examples is an exception

There is not a lot to go off from here

[fading shard]

no seriously their the main example groal was only capable of doing so by eating the snail shaman, and the weavers were gifted the gift of threading soul into silk by gms, and silk in general has such a stark diference to base soul

[fading shard]

you do realize that they came from a time and age, and have the possibility of even being divine themselves given a lore tablet where they call themselves higher

they literally come from an age where they could make their blades yearn to be wielded

all of them were the size of titans, I feel as though the ancient civilization should almost always not be included in most conversations for how specific they are

[fading shard]

and again groal had to consume a snail shaman to manipulate soul and fun fact hollow knight actually does give us some dialogue as to why they can naturally manipulate soul as apparently they have a "spiral focus" as said by a dream tree in the ancestral mound

something that the soul sanctum lore tablets states one need

s

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-silksong-grand-mother-silk-gms-true-gif-11350950982352894959

[foggy stratus]

Dehydrated Weavers. Fully drained dry.

Very small and brittle.

[foggy stratus]

Someone give me a random enemy.

[covert night]

lugoli

[foggy stratus]

"I've seen some do odd things with their food before eating. Long, seemingly difficult rituals for seemingly no end goal. Why waste so much time when you could just... eat it? The bugs of Pharlool truly are odd."-The Hunter

[near jasper]

Mnemoid

[foggy stratus]

"Hmmm... I've thought long and hard on what this odd thing is. The only conclusion I've come to is that I do not know. It lacks any organs or flesh and can return from near total destruction... I wonder if I would do the same after being shatteted?"-The Hunter

[covert night]

these would make a good hunters journal mod

just an idea

[foggy stratus]

I've been doing this for a little bit now.

Maybe if I knew how to mod.

[spark valve]

“What manner of prey lacks the dignity to remain hunted”

[foggy stratus]

Maybe that'd fit the birds more.

[cinder berry]

Lore:
Silksong hasn't released yet

[near jasper]

Lore: silksong

[near jasper]

[near jasper]

[echo prawn]

Guys the dead person near hunters soul. Are they related to pinstress? I thought they were a snail

[near jasper]

The guy in bilewater?

[formal loom]

spaghetti

[candid linden]

why does groal guard a soul

[naive compass]

he tortured a snail shaman to death to get soul power in order to at some point revolt against cytadel

[jagged sun]

Like the Snail Shaman that gives you ||Shade Soul|| in HK

[indigo gale]

Does the haunting like possess you and you are completely awake and aware of what you are being controlled to do?

[jagged sun]

From what I understand, the haunting possesses bugs and makes them continue what they did in life forever and also make them hostile

[echo prawn]

Yeah dead guy

[near jasper]

Not related to pinstresses

You're thinking of the wraith of purity corpse in ducts

[echo prawn]

Oh yeah. Sorry my bad. I got confused.

Did she fight against vog?

[near jasper]

Probably not

[echo prawn]

That scar on her face resembles their signature attack.

[jagged sun]

Ooh that's a cool theory I didn't notice that

It could be why that pinstress is dead

I like that I'm keeping it

[near jasper]

If the duct's pinstress' death was recent her baloon probably would not be as destroyed as we see

The needolin memory also suggests she was talking with one of her sisters which probably means shes been dead for a pretty long time

[echo prawn]

Maybe destroyed in a fight. Also does memory have to be recent one?

I mean phantom memory wasn't recent one i think

[near jasper]

Most likely

All corpses we see seem to have a memory of just before they died

[echo prawn]

I think phantom and lace had the convo long back. Atleast thats how it looked to me. Apart from them whose memory we see? I don't remember

[near jasper]

A lot of corpses

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Needolin_Locations

Im just gonna Guess memories from locations Are slightly different than memories from corpses ig

[echo prawn]

I wish snails to be villain in whatever upcoming game.

They seems to be always plotting something

[harsh lagoon]

i think the dude who gives the apostale key was the one who killed her

[frank dove]

Erm

Could you take an ss yourself

Idk if we're talking about the same thing

[frank dove]

It doesn't look like anyone specifically killed her, could be sickness

Wardenfly vs pinstress sister is not even remotely close

Even the peaceful one disabled fourth chorus

[near jasper]

yeah

her pin probably wouldnt just be stuck to the ground like that if she died in a battle

[spare meadow]

Why do people say we don't play as hornet in silksong

[near jasper]

???????

[sinful nimbus]

Its a joke on how you didn't play as the hollow knight in Hollow Knight

[spare meadow]

Oh

Because a guy said we play as a twin sis of hornet and I just saw a dialog of shakra calling us "hornet welding needle"

Just confused

[foggy stratus]

These things(I'm in Act 3 rn)

[near jasper]

i just noticed we never see a single person that works on cleaning the citadel outside the underoworks

[frank dove]

Hm I see what you mean now

Can anyone read file names?

[twin dragon]

they could be cradle bugs

[near jasper]

underoworks

[twin dragon]

Why would weavers be "dehydrated"

[foggy stratus]

All their silk got sucked out along with bodily fluids.

[twin dragon]

why

[near jasper]

to process into food like chips and cereal

[twin dragon]

they could've been just

sucked in

whole

[frank dove]

Their silk is eaten from them

[twin dragon]

into gms

thats what binding is

[foggy stratus]

GMS absorbed them while she slept.

[twin dragon]

yeah gms doesnt absorb bugs like that

what's also making you think they're weavers

they're just blobs covered with silk

weavers are also far larger and have a recognizable shape

[near jasper]

lace throwing a weaver body inside gms' cocoon to feed her

[twin dragon]

nah gms would lwk js pull it in

i dont see it being an issue

[foggy stratus]

GMS is unconscious and wouldn't be able to do much on her own, there's a distinct lack of Weaver bodies in the Cradle, these things are in abundance in the main room of the Cradle and nowhere else.

[twin dragon]

iirc there are also more of them than recorded weavers

[twin dragon]

she can pull shit enough

how would draining someone with string even work

they aren't feeding tubes

[foggy stratus]

There's a fuck ton of the cages in the Weaver Cage room.

[twin dragon]

Pilgrims were tasked with gazing upon the kingdom's heart so that's why they're in that specific room

[twin dragon]

there aren't more than 4 though

[near jasper]

theyre clearly the weavers from weavers den

[foggy stratus]

Look in the background of the room.

[frank dove]

And what about the living one

The infected one

[near jasper]

lugoli pickled them

[frank dove]

Hm ok

[near jasper]

and the citadel guys carrying the weaver

[twin dragon]

wtv the other cages were supposed to transport but the ones in the lore tablet room are matching with the weaver commandments

[foggy stratus]

There are also several commandment tablets in the cage room we don't get to read.

[twin dragon]

true, but that doesnt deny what i've mentioned beforehand

[unreal dew]

why doesnt GMS make one of those minotaur guys kill the conductor so that she wakes up faster is she stupid

[near jasper]

the what guys?

[unreal dew]

the high hp dudes in high halls

[near jasper]

the ones with the flies?

[foggy stratus]

Chiror Clapper?

[near jasper]

o

[unreal dew]

i dont remember their names but you fight two of them in the end of the gauntlet

[near jasper]

yeah the choir clappers

[sick tinsel]

hot take : the hive is absolutely cool

[candid linden]

how long could gms last in the void

[limpid summit]

A while

[candid linden]

could she have escaped

also why was she still haunting pharloom

[limpid summit]

Nope

[foggy stratus]

If she wasnt trying to sustain Lace probably a while.

[limpid summit]

The haunting comes from silk inside bugs

GMS being inside the void corrupts the silk from her that strings the silk inside them

She probably couldn’t/wouldnt unhaunt them

[fading shard]

I thought it was implied that if lace had not jumped in with gms, gms would have fell

wasn't that what the conversation hornet and the snail shamans had implied that

[candid linden]

huh

gms would've just let herself die?

imagine waking up just to instantly die

[sick tinsel]

yea i also thought about that

motherhood is a powerful force

[hard widget]

Really appreciating the pale Kings sewer design recently

That shit still runs clean

I guess it’s due to the rainfall but goddamn did them ducts putrify

[frank dove]

Well some became acidic did it not

[plain gazelle]

there probably aren't many people left to shit

[hard widget]

There’s enough for dung defender to make a cozy home

[plain gazelle]

he's scraped the rest of the sewers clean

[frank dove]

That's all his

[hard widget]

But it says in hunters journal in hk that the rain flushes the waste out of the drains regularly

Probably the only thing keeping the flukes in check

Unless the flukes also eat the shit

Which in that case let em loose in Bilewater they’ll have it cleaned up

[fading shard]

Yes the Pale king created and did a ton of great things for his kingdom and I could name over 20 things he did for his kingdom that made it as great as it was canonically back before the infection ruined everything

[hard widget]

I do like the implication in one of the underworker journal entry that Hornet reflected that she needed to peer into the foundations of her own kingdom more

Hallownest’s class disparity is way tamer than the citadel tho

[fading shard]

I am aware of that entry, and it's rather clear it's referring to the maggots

[fading shard]

every nation has a class disparity

[hard widget]

The maggots are the obvious place to go to, you can also draw parallels to the left side city

[fading shard]

that's kinda a thing in every single social group ever

[hard widget]

Yeah yeah we live in a society

[fading shard]

bro the left side of the city was great wdym??

[hard widget]

Compared to the opulence on the right?

[inner nacelle]

The pale king didn’t have enough clairvoyance to see that his civilization won’t be the last. He is not a Leto atraides character

[hard widget]

Bugs grown fat and decadent from excess wealth while the rest barely eeked out a living working to maintain the system?

[fading shard]

there was nothing suggesting nor implying that the poorer side of hallownest had it bad, in fact we're shown quite the opposite we literally seethat they had access to a ton of hallownests technology and got to live off still pretty well

honestly they had it off better then we do irl, the right side just has the classic sterotypical rich stuff that you'd expect, that's literally it

[hard widget]

It’s not that they had it bad per se, but they sure as hell had it worse than their rich “betters” on the opposite side on the fountain with the money and the restaurants and the pleasure house the fancy station

[fading shard]

I genuinely don't even know what the point here is meant to be

[hard widget]

One side of the city had all the amenities while the other had housing for workers

[fading shard]

the left side also had amenities though????

[hard widget]

Not to nearly the same extent

[fading shard]

again yeah obviously the rich side is going to have the rich stuff, idk why people even bring this up in the community, bloody wolf packs have a class disparity

[inner nacelle]

I also don’t think that if team cherry does plan for sequels like a steel city that we don’t learn the true history of the gods, abyss, etc

Some things are better left in the thoery bin

[fading shard]

again obviously???

[inner nacelle]

then again, Melina is the gloam eyed queen and the internet is bonkers for thinking otherwise

[hard widget]

I’m terrified of team cherry dropping a steel soul exclusive dlc

[fading shard]

every literal civilization and even social group will have this be the case, the entire point is to make it so the lesser class has it as good as possible

[hard widget]

Melina is the daughter of Marika who bore a vision of fire how could she be the gloam eyed queen

[fading shard]

something that the pale king did a great job at, so again whaty are you talking about

[inner nacelle]

Let’s see your pick

[limpid summit]

Wretched chud pilgrim

[inner nacelle]

https://tenor.com/view/hard-drive-paedo-paul-allen-patrick-bateman-american-psycho-gif-27329726

[hard widget]

It seems like you’re justifying exploitive class structures by saying “well the poors have it good so what’s the point of preventing the hoarding of wealth for the sake of wealth” like that didn’t directly contribute to the downfall of hallownest

[fading shard]

wretched genuinely you're just saying the baseline of any social group in general and framing it as a flaw of the pale kings kingdom when again WOLVES have the same thing going on, LIONS do, ants, bees etc

[limpid summit]

That did not contribute to the downfall of hallownest

[fading shard]

what exploitation?????????

I'm genuinely confused

[hard widget]

The hunter muses that the cowardly rich bugs barricaded themselves in the city while the kingdom fell or something it’s worth checking out

[limpid summit]

Yeah that was an effect not a cause

[fading shard]

no he didn't???

[limpid summit]

If I remember correctly

[fading shard]

he was commenting on how weak the rich were, something he was doing for the regular citizens as well

[limpid summit]

It seems the weakest, greediest members of Hallownest were also the ones who exerted the most influence. Truly a Kingdom that was always destined for ruin.

He says this but it’s just sort of him platituding because he doesn’t understand the actual reasons that Hallownest fell

[fading shard]

how is that line in anyway related to this my friend

[limpid summit]

PK wouldn’t let simple class structures destroy the eternal kingdom he meant to build

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance lashed out because she loved the poor and hated to see such inequality in Hallownest ❤️

[twin dragon]

Such bureaucracy that the pk created...💔

[fading shard]

this entry is just supposed to be a showcase of the hunter not understanding how civilizations or societies work

[limpid summit]

Radiance was a class conscious environmentalist whose children abandoned her for petty bourgeoise status

[sinful nimbus]

The cost of so much grandeur... Did I peer closely enough into the foundations of my own kingdom?

[hard widget]

I could write out an entire Marxist analysis of both games but I already have to write a Marxist analysis of real society for school so instead I’m going to go to bed

[fading shard]

what is happening

[fading shard]

I don't even know what point some of you guys are trying to make

[hard widget]

My point is what you dismiss as “normal society at work” is built upon the backs of ordinary working bugs who labor to keep the rich, rich. The pale king is a ruler, not a benevolent omnipotent capital G god, who values dominance and worship from his subjects even if the specific way he goes about it favors their wellbeing more than silk or the weavers

[fading shard]

that's how literally every civilization has worked ever

including other species on our planet

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a great system

[hard widget]

Isn’t the whole message of act 3 to move beyond the oppressive systems of the past that kept bugs tied into a fundamentally exploitative system and to live and work for their own benefit?

[sinful nimbus]

Its also true that the Pale King was like a god god though

[fading shard]

this isn't even a human thing, or a take on the flaws of society that's just how it works, there will always be classes in a society, the entire point of making a GOOD society is making it so the poorer classes have it as good as possible

[hard widget]

Dude the wolf and lion example had me dead most packs are like 2 families

Not akin to a whole civilization

[limpid summit]

He is a benevolent omnipotent capital G god

[hard widget]

This is a myth

[fading shard]

ants

[limpid summit]

The game drills this into your head

[hard widget]

That explains the giant pile of dead babies in his basement

Kind of like real god

[sinful nimbus]

HK fans when context

[hard widget]

Dig around long enough and the blood becomes unbearably deep

[fading shard]

that was literally to save his kingdom that literally gives brownie points to him as a king

[sinful nimbus]

PK didn't kill a bunch of babies out of malice it was a trolley problem lol

[fading shard]

this will be mean and I apologize in advance but do you possess media literacy

wretched

[twin dragon]

Pk believed in pseudoscience bs

ts cant be twin so undeducated

[sinful nimbus]

Like its true that how Hallownest worked was not great

[hard widget]

I have an English degree

[sinful nimbus]

But its also true that PK wasn't this cartoon supervillain or stand-in for corrupt politicians

[limpid summit]

Yeah the ones meant to save infinite generations of regular bugs who he didn’t know

[fading shard]

that was about pharloom, not hallownest, hallownest was said and shown throughout the enitre game to have been a marvel of a kingdom, this is supported several times over by different npcs

[limpid summit]

Per capita he’s the most moral person in the game

[sinful nimbus]

what's that copypasta

hold on

[fading shard]

dude he literally killed himself out of shame

[sinful nimbus]

oh ok. Well I have a job and a degree and a comfortable sense of self, and apparently a better sense of the outer political world than the chat in here, so this criticism doesn't really penetrate so deeply. Keep calling me names if you think it will help.

[fading shard]

and yes this is backed up a lot and I have over 4 sources supporting this

[sinful nimbus]

Top 10 #hk-disc moments

[hard widget]

He didn’t kill himself out of shame, his plan failed and he panicked and fled from the problems of his own making

He ended up dead at the hands of his own guards

[sinful nimbus]

He didn't create the infection lol

[limpid summit]

Lmao

Larp larp larp sahur

[hard widget]

No blazing kin. Only one light to stand against the darkness

He intentionally suppressed the radiance because he could not tolerate her worship as the ruler of hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah? That's about the infection

[limpid summit]

“Only one being to guard against the darkness of the mind, without unity or sapience”

[fading shard]

"my king your troubles let us" "the kings great shame" "that pit smth is only filled with regret, we will not go to that place no longer" "no cost to great........." "....."

[hard widget]

The only people the pale king didn’t violently subjugate were the ones too strong or wild to resist him fully

[limpid summit]

PK offers sapience at the cost of unity
Rad offers the opposite

[sinful nimbus]

OK but she only ruled the moth tribe who we are told followed him out of fickleness

[limpid summit]

She didn’t rule Hallownest only the moths and Seer states it was their fault

Snail

[sinful nimbus]

He's also totally chill with Unn and is even married to another deity 💀

[limpid summit]

I love explaining why PK is the best person in the game

It fills me with joy

Star I’m glad we could do this together

[fading shard]

also the nightmare heart literally gives praise to the pale king in drea nail dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

The tablet is about the infection it even goes on to say "eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed"

[limpid summit]

You too ab

[fading shard]

I just in general love talking with both of y'all, you guys are awesome

[spark valve]

But is it ethical to stop the zombie plague if it’s being caused by somebody and you have to take adverse action against them to do it

[limpid summit]

Thank you you as well

[limpid summit]

No he killed babies for no reason and Hunter knows more about running a kingdom than him

[fading shard]

yk I have learned the best thing to say to this, what was he supposed to do

no genuinely people who hate him never give actual alternatives other then "just give up"

either that or they mention stuff that he had no access to

[paper mantle]

Do you think the Masters are Pale Beings?

[sinful nimbus]

He should've hit the marxist literature instead of murdering babies all day

[fading shard]

even though he failed in the long run people forget he literally bought time for several generations of bug lives to pass

[sinful nimbus]

higher beings at the very least

[twin dragon]

chat is the message of this that pseudoscience works

truly a good narrative

10/10

[sinful nimbus]

possibly pale beings cuz Zi uses runes but eh

[hard widget]

I think the steel beings are something else entirely

The masters are stated to be different

Like the knight

Something unbound by destiny

Pale beings are destiny incarnate

[fading shard]

every single civilization that wanted no part in his kingdom were left alone, wtf are you on about

[spark valve]

That’s something people constantly just make up

[fading shard]

and the seer (who mind you is the last moth and the one who could actually give us proper info on what transpired) said it was the moths fault to the radiances abandonment so idk what you're trying to say

[hard widget]

Also don’t get me wrong the paleking is the best higher being we’ve seen for the most part. But that’s like being the best US president

[limpid summit]

Yeah

Abraham Lincoln

My goat

[twin dragon]

unn

unn mogs

unn did nothing wrong

[spark valve]

[sinful nimbus]

asoiaf and its consequences on fantasy kings or something idk I never read it

[twin dragon]

when will pk read the capital

[fading shard]

the hive: left alone, the mantis tribe: made a deal with them, the shrumals: outrightly said to have joined him for his foresight,

[twin dragon]

i want to see his reaction

[twin dragon]

(to then be consumed)

[spark valve]

Greenpath was also an accord

[fading shard]

the mosskin literally left alone, and what his wife did was prior to his arrival and unrelated to him or his kingdom

[sinful nimbus]

tbh Silk and Rad are the only really evil higher beings

tf did Unn do to deserve the slander of being a US president

[twin dragon]

Unn doesnt deserve to be called a politician

she my goat

[spark valve]

Assuming she even really did much there, unn’s not in a great state her domain may have been decaying naturally

[sinful nimbus]

Nightmare Heart just chills and roleplays all day 😭

[twin dragon]

larping as having audience

[sinful nimbus]

Oh White Lady is evil now too ig

[twin dragon]

prob the most original one tbf

[fading shard]

tammo the mosskin literally have control over all of their territory and the only influence the pale king had over them was him being allowed to build some roads on their land for the pilgrims way which as we see in greenpath they completely had domain over still

[twin dragon]

we better see good shit in the skong dlcs

for original hbs

[fading shard]

the nightmare heart is implied to be rather messed up in someways

[spark valve]

Yes if you leave the road you’re subject to their laws

[sinful nimbus]

does WL being evil make the king bad by association

[fading shard]

exactly tammo

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't really do anything other than attempt to live forever

[twin dragon]

the nightmare heart's the vulture of higher beings

[fading shard]

jiji and brumm beg to differ in someway

[twin dragon]

they pick up the remains

[sinful nimbus]

Like PK that's a character flaw but not evil

Jiji just says stranger danger Brumm takes issue with it trying to live forever

[fading shard]

his wife stopped doing heinous stuff after they became an item so if anything one could say he redeemed her XD

[sinful nimbus]

WL had a child soldier

Also a bad parent to Hornet

[twin dragon]

[sinful nimbus]

its called tough love ❤️‍🩹

[fading shard]

the white lady and pale king are just as bad when it comes to the kids

[twin dragon]

she wasnt even abusive you made it up

[sinful nimbus]

Read her dialogue

[fading shard]

though the pale king apparently felt a lot more bad about it then she did

[sinful nimbus]

If you cold and uncaring towards your kid you are abusive 🥀

I'm not saying she like hit Hornet

[twin dragon]

Thats how she thought hornet would perceive WL not really defining how she actually treated her 💔

[sinful nimbus]

Why would Hornet perceive her that way

[twin dragon]

and hornet wouldn't really be caring if her whole ass childhood was WL yelling and drill sargeanting on her ass

[sinful nimbus]

That could only be a result of her behaviour

[fading shard]

I mean hornet at least likes her, something her dad was not as fortunate in

[twin dragon]

Differing comforts of her past momma

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet and caring in the same sentence

If you laugh you go to hell

[twin dragon]

I mean the slab would've been well written if WL was truly abusive

amirite

[sinful nimbus]

Its not differing comfort WL like explicitly states she's gonna appear uncaring and distant

[fading shard]

on the more advanced "dnd character morality chart" she's a neutral immoral character

[spark valve]

WL being abusive is not the intended reading but it’s not a great sign of a healthy relationship or example of motherhood

[fading shard]

my question is where do you put the pale king in the dnd chart because I'm leaning towards moral neutral

[sinful nimbus]

the goodest option

[twin dragon]

Wtv she taught hornet apparently ended up serving her well

so she parented her well enough ig but we dont even know what she taught hornet

[sinful nimbus]

I mean like tammo said its not intentional

[sick tinsel]

pale king this white lady that give hallownest to zote instead

[sinful nimbus]

But uh its not great

So ofc Hornet ends up better for it

Tough love

[twin dragon]

Likely wl represents the rough parent

[fading shard]

because again he's for the (most part) a good person, with a lot of highs and very few but depressingly high lows

[sinful nimbus]

Also her only parent

[twin dragon]

i mean

eeeeh?

herrah ig was with hornet long enough

[sinful nimbus]

Also all her parents were in on the wish

[twin dragon]

and vespa just kicked ass

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet says it

[twin dragon]

what wish

[sinful nimbus]

son

[twin dragon]

The one for hornet to be strong n shit to face hardships

[sick tinsel]

vespa best ruler

vespa better than pale king

[twin dragon]

everything relevant vespa ever did is perish

[sinful nimbus]

Burn yourself free from our sad fate

[sick tinsel]

cap

the hive is still running perfectly

[twin dragon]

Ye its not explicitely bad

[fading shard]

shadax the hive is literally extinct

[twin dragon]

If you want to read it like that sure but the game openly states it was purely out of necessity

[fading shard]

hornet confirms this

[sinful nimbus]

What I'm saying is that even if the game portrays it as good parenting its not

[sick tinsel]

its just infected

too much infected

[sinful nimbus]

One of those dialogues you're just not supposed to think about

[sick tinsel]

but the infection only entered when vespa died

[twin dragon]

I always assumed this as an allegory to shit your parents teach you that you think are useless and a waste of time

[fading shard]

no I mean hornet literally tells a character that her blade was forged by a now extinct faction

[twin dragon]

not exactly abuse yk

[sick tinsel]

tbh i wouldent be surprised if there was actually some normal bees in the hive

not workers or soldiers

just bees

[fading shard]

what the white lady and her mentor did was just crappy parenting

[sinful nimbus]

doesn't exactly line up though

She doesn't say "You'll get it when your older" she's saying "Yeah we gonna seem like jerks that don't care about you"

[fading shard]

YK star are we sure we can't just move in to one of the cities in hallownests prime

[sinful nimbus]

wym

[fading shard]

honestly would be better living conditions then what we have irl, and a leader that actually cares

[twin dragon]

Following directly by "its out of necessity"

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah I know

[sick tinsel]

who

[sinful nimbus]

c'mon

[sick tinsel]

pk ?

[fading shard]

yes pk

he cares a lot

[twin dragon]

still calls to me as i've mentioned previously

[sick tinsel]

tbh

he killed his own children

just to save his kingdom

huge level of care

my bro needed therapy

after that

[twin dragon]

It is technically good parenting as the goal was achieved and hornet seemingly doesnt have any psychological trauma to bear and stuff, at least in the moral code of the hk verse

[sinful nimbus]

Its abusive behavior that is "out of necessity" but it actually uh isn't

[twin dragon]

Yeah but it kinda was

[sinful nimbus]

ts was not necessary its only portrayed as such because its not a well written scene

[hard widget]

I don’t think the three queens were abusive at all. They taught Hornet to follow her own path and to create a world as she saw fit

And armed her with the skills to do so

Yes I’m back

[sinful nimbus]

...For our ways you will think us harsh... You will think us uncaring, unrepentant...

[hard widget]

I made a hot chocolate and put my Jammies on

[fading shard]

the pale went with the opposite and chose suicide out of guilt instead

[twin dragon]

You're purposefully cherrypicking a single dialogue that doesn't exactly imply abuse

[sinful nimbus]

Their behaviour made them seem cold and distant which is not good parenting

[sinful nimbus]

Its not an implication

That's just an abusive parenting style like c'mon parents shouldn't seem uncaring towards their kids

[fading shard]

nubbie it isn't really an implication

[hard widget]

Hornet then immediately refuted this in the literal next line of dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

And if you portray that as good parenting like Silksong does its uh bad

[sinful nimbus]

Nope

She says she was aware of the wish

Not that she disagrees with it

Hornet: You are wrong, Lady...
Hornet: I knew the wish, and the price to achieve it. And now, across these many ages, I have only come to know it better...

[sick tinsel]

bet he had childhood trauma

[hard widget]

She says she’s aware of the wish, explains the wish, and understands the necessity of the means to achieve it

[sinful nimbus]

Which WL didn't intend or know

[hard widget]

She’s saying that it’s good parenting and she understands that after living her life for so long

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but its not good parenting this would never fly irl lmao

[fading shard]

I mean she kinda sucks and has a very weird mindset so

[sinful nimbus]

"The kid understood it was to make them stronger all along guys"

son

[twin dragon]

It did end up achievend the goals whereas usually actually abusive parents dont get anywhere

more of the opposite

[fading shard]

nubbie you already know my beef with her, and mostly even agreed with me on hornets flaws ;-;

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah and that's bad writing

[hard widget]

She was a grown ass woman albeit young by the time vespa and the white lady got around to her

At least in the red memory

From what we see

[sinful nimbus]

It shows an abusive parenting style working which is uh

Garbage writing icl

[twin dragon]

It isn't explicitely stated as to what exactly the WL did

[sinful nimbus]

Her mother was in on it too

[fading shard]

hollow knight is rather famous for bad parents though

[sick tinsel]

maybe vespa but i guess hornet was raised by wl

[hard widget]

Her mother only wanted Hornet to follow her own path 😭😭

[fading shard]

white lady is literally the person that raised hornet wretched

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet literally never had any good role models thats crazy

[hard widget]

The whole point of the red memory is that they raised a strong independent woman who has the desire and drive to save a kingdom and make it better than it was before

[twin dragon]

idk what to say atp

[fading shard]

and it's literally confirmed that herrah and hornet got to spend little time together

[sinful nimbus]

Through bad means

I'm aware of the point I'm just criticizing the sequence for portraying bad parenting as good

Ofc what the game wants you to think is that it was good and inspiring

[fading shard]

listen if we wanna speak about a strong independant woman look no further then shakra

shakra is cool

shakra is everything hornet wishes she was

[hard widget]

I always assumed shakra’s arc of her mentor and mother neatly paralleled hornets

[fading shard]

hornets character sucks, shakras doesn't so there's a big difference

[sinful nimbus]

[bad parenting] results in good kid so its actually good parenting all along

[hard widget]

Both endowed them with the skills and courage to survive and fight in an unforgiving wasteland

[fading shard]

the game ignores hornets flaws, the game doesn't for shakra, shakra get's character growth, hornet somehow get's worse in act 3

[hard widget]

Sigh

We treaded that ground the other day

[fading shard]

and people agreed with me

including sashimi and even nubbie to an extent

actually a lot of people did

[hard widget]

Whatever I’ll make a video essay about it once I have access to my proper pc again

[sinful nimbus]

she gets a lot of character growth if you ignore the violent racist rhetoric, ecological decimation, and random murder of an old woman/grieving widower

Sea of Sorrow please introduce a use for the 4th heart

[twin dragon]

Hornet ignoring stuff is moreso a character flaw

and yeah the game has shit writing for some things

related to hornet unfortunately

[fading shard]

yeah she's really biased

also she does heinous stuff for sport

that's another thing

[twin dragon]

Imo killing for sport is fine for her

but that leading to the collapse of ecosystems isnt

[hard widget]

The whole ecosystem thing really irks me cuz like karmelita is old and her voice has faded

She’s not long for this world

And if she’s the only thing sustaining the ecosystem then it’s bound to wither and fade anyways

[sick tinsel]

a true sharka fan does not speak ill of anyone

[twin dragon]

the heart could be passed down

[fading shard]

also the poor green prince and ignoring boundries

[hard widget]

All Hornet is doing is expediting the process

[twin dragon]

but hornet keeps it

[hard widget]

Then why weren’t khan’s or nuleth’s

[twin dragon]

Gp seemed fine enough to let hornet wander into his dream and didnt really mind her till she reached the throne room

[fading shard]

wretched the game actively says it's a bad thing

[twin dragon]

I'd say this is a character flaw

[hard widget]

Surely the watcher at the edge could’ve used it to rebuild the tower

[twin dragon]

since the game states its not something good

hornet kinda js mumbles some bullshit to gilly

[sinful nimbus]

Even if the ecosystem was actually doomed that's not an excuse for speeding it up

[hard widget]

Its doomed regardless if she doesn’t fight lace

[fading shard]

also can we talk about nyleth and seth

[hard widget]

Anyways it’s only doomed if you go out of your way to fight her after 3 hearts

[twin dragon]

no

[hard widget]

If you want to have the moral high ground than simply let her live in your playthrough

[twin dragon]

because nothing

[sinful nimbus]

Yes this is about choosing her as a 4th heart

[sinful nimbus]

Its not immoral for the player to do stuff in a game lol

[fading shard]

we're talking about a forth heart she takes for sport, not her getting the first three, that's kinda why peopled efend the pale kings kid genocide

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not saying you're a bad person for killing her as a 4th heart I did that in my first playthrough

But the player isn't even canon this is just bad characterization for Hornet

[fading shard]

seth

[hard widget]

And I don’t think it is at all because like. Who is that ecosystem even for? All of the skarr besides the mottled are dead

[twin dragon]

also nothing

[hard widget]

Let the next batch of bugs inherit the land and build their own

[fading shard]

listen people defend what happened to seth, and I agree it turned out forthe better but CONSENT is what matters here

[twin dragon]

seth was a fight out of necessity kinda

[hard widget]

Instead of letting a dying land persist for no reason other than the few who remain

[twin dragon]

to reach nyleth

as a 4th heart idfk man

[fading shard]

wretched you're coping to a sad level

[twin dragon]

hornet hunting for sport?

thats fine to me ig

[hard widget]

Whatever man

Ignore my takes since I have no media literacy

[fading shard]

again her doing any of the hearts to reach lace is completely justified, it's just a infantcide situation all over again

[hard widget]

The whole point with the hearts is to allow these lands choked by the citadel to pass on and to use the embers of what remains to save the kingdoms

There’s no outcomes where these lands are allowed to thrive again

Cuz the only options are weaver queen or void

[sinful nimbus]

who are the coral reefs for 🥀

[hard widget]

Nobody because they’re all dead

[fading shard]

You defend hornet to such an extent, yet you hate on the pale king over the smallest things

[hard widget]

Except one grey dude

[twin dragon]

infanticide was completely baseless on pk's side though

[sinful nimbus]

Is it OK to kill them because there's no one sapient living there

[hard widget]

That is because the pale king is more akin to silk as the ruler and pale being of the kingdom

[sinful nimbus]

And I mean like irl coral reefs

[fading shard]

what

[sinful nimbus]

Because this is like insane

[fading shard]

he literally mirrors hornet in a lot of ways

[sinful nimbus]

Anything but admitting Hornet is poorly written

[hard widget]

I like the way she’s written!

And I can defend it!

[twin dragon]

some aspects are ass

unfortunately

[fading shard]

she's not poorly written I like her character, it's just that in the FUTURE (Which they can absolutely do) the game should address her flaws

[twin dragon]

which is a real shame as the story holds much potential

[twin dragon]

grimm troupe brought tons of lore dialogues we can always hope

[sinful nimbus]

You can't defend killing an ecosystem just because no one sapient is living in it man

That's insane

[twin dragon]

deforestation is the moral thing you see

[hard widget]

The ecosystems are already dying because in the world of hollow knight they are tied to the sentient beings that live there

[sinful nimbus]

Skarr aren't even all dead

[sinful nimbus]

Karmelita is one of many bearers of the heart

[fading shard]

the pale king only has two valid flaws the discrimination the maggots have, and the infantcide that's it

[hard widget]

Yeah and khann’s ecosystem is fully dead and nyleth’s is being overrun by the splinters

[sinful nimbus]

Dying alone doesn't destroy the ecosystem unless say someone would remove the heart from its source and stick it on their wall

[twin dragon]

he kinda intruded on some wild territorry and forced bugs that didnt know any better and took sapience because of him into his regime

[hard widget]

Karmelita’s is just the one that is dying the slowest because the skarr succumbed to the haunting last

[sinful nimbus]

Also its not ok to accelerate the death of things just cuz they're gonna die one day anyways

Like are we thinking about what we're saying gng

[hard widget]

It’s that the ecosystem is already dying

[sinful nimbus]

Its not

[fading shard]

nubbie what

[hard widget]

Because of the haunting

[fading shard]

is that satire?

[sinful nimbus]

The haunting you end once you beat the game?

That haunting?

[twin dragon]

No like iirc he did do that

[hard widget]

Yes! that one!

[fading shard]

those who joined him did so out of their own volition we literally have several cases of people refusing to join him

[sinful nimbus]

Yea that's not an issue cuz you solve it at the end

[hard widget]

Most of the skarr that didn’t die to the haunting succumbed to the void their civilization is toast!!!

The civilization that is symbiotic with said ecosystem!!!

Just like real life the bugs are directly responsible for shaping their environments

[sinful nimbus]

There's an entire dialogue with Gilly about how Hornet is destroying something vital to an ecosystem and she tries justifying it, that wouldn't be there if it would die anyways

[hard widget]

The only ones that don’t do this that we’ve seen are the pale beings who create massive civilizations that defy the natural order

[sinful nimbus]

You also solve the issue of the void lmao

Play the game

[fading shard]

when?? We're literally shown that by all accounts he did make the kingdom in such a way that the flora and fauna of the regions could still flourish

[hard widget]

That doesn’t mean massive damage wasn’t already done

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but its not lethal to the entire ecosystem hence the Gilly dialogue

[hard widget]

The whole point of act 3 is saving what’s left so they can rebuild

[sinful nimbus]

If everything was already destroyed there would be no point

[fading shard]

like in pharloom we see that the enviroments and ecosystems are doing fine even when showed up, it wasn't a pharloom situation

[twin dragon]

i didnt remember right then

[hard widget]

Everything is not destroyed just the stuff that was snared directly by the haunting and the void

Like the majority of the skarr

[fading shard]

btw uh nubbie just wanted to say I appreciate you and think you're cool (also same applies to star)

[sinful nimbus]

also ants being vital for the ecosystem is kinda made up

[twin dragon]

thank thee much

[hard widget]

Depends on the ecosystem

[sinful nimbus]

There is nothing in the game saying that the far fields were already out the door and there is dialogue in the game saying Hornet is the one who brought its ruin

[sinful nimbus]

Provide proof

[hard widget]

Like irl?

[sinful nimbus]

No

[hard widget]

Ok karmelita’s heart

Karmelita’s heart is the lynchpin of the ecosystem

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[fading shard]

wretched with respect team cherry has stated that they just loosely base off their characters by the designs of irl bugs, they aren't supposed to be accurate

[sinful nimbus]

That's kinda why destroying it is bad actually

[hard widget]

Karmelita is a skarr who staved off the haunting with her power

[sinful nimbus]

The Heart isn't gone unless Hornet takes it

[hard widget]

When her power waned the skarr fell to the haunting and the ecosystem began to die

[sinful nimbus]

The ecosystem isn't dying what

[fading shard]

the ecosystem wasn't dying until act 3 though????

[sinful nimbus]

The heart is still there

[hard widget]

Then Hornet shows up and uses magic to go back into her memories and reclaim her heart as it was in her prime

[fading shard]

it's literally the only still somewhat flourishing are in pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

This giant, old ant... Her death seems recent, but her presence here...
Was it her? Could it be? The strength that sustained these caves? If so, what will happen now?
Hornet: They will wither and fade... And you may sadly know it was my needle that brought her end.
You, miss? But why? Why destroy something so vital?
Yeah surely the ecosystem was already dying guys

[hard widget]

This is because of the recency of the skarr’s fall to the haunting

[sinful nimbus]

I struggle to see why that would affect the ecosystem