sk-lore

[limpid summit]

That’s it

[near jasper]

Emo kid vs trained army men

[stray grove]

Lace is weak as shit

[whole holly]

she has hazard of void and also training on her side

[stray grove]

Lace only uses physical attacks and is very fragile

[whole holly]

that's why we have Lost Lace, actually

[near jasper]

Isma solos lace and shes litterally a tree

[stray grove]

One Ogrim shockwave and she’s toast

[glacial warren]

And then Void Given Focus is SSS+++ Tier.

[whole holly]

did you see her health bar?

[whole holly]

get Isma above Shadow Creeper tier first

[sinful nimbus]

HP isn't canon Ogrim would smoke LLace

[near jasper]

We arent even trying to kill her in that fight of course she can tank a lot of hits from hornet

[stray grove]

Lace is basically made of paper and doesn’t hit very hard

[glacial warren]

I mean. Lace is less so weak and more specifically fragile. She’s fast and hits like a freight train on steroids, but her delicate frame falls apart if something can actually land hits on her.

[stray grove]

“Hits like a freight train on steroids” 🥀

[spark valve]

none of those things are true

[acoustic imp]

erm actually she's made of silk

[stray grove]

She hits like paper mache

[whole holly]

okay she is sustained by GMS and has hazard of void, most five great knights won't survive void

[spark valve]

she doesn't hit that hard and she isn't that fast

[glacial warren]

To this end, it feels like Ogrim could win: He has a lot of wide AoE/Splash Damage Lace would find hard to dodge and his plethora of projectiles could box her in.

[stray grove]

Lace isn’t very strong canonically

[spark valve]

lace has one actually speedy move

[stray grove]

Like she is basically a coughing baby

[near jasper]

Lace loses to false knight

[whole holly]

what is Ogrim going to do, dive in void? i don't think so

Lost Garmond solos everyone

[spark valve]

she could probably make it to, like, soul master

[stray grove]

This matchup is literally coughing baby on life support vs thermonuclear bomb

[glacial warren]

Vs Lost Lace the matchup changes a fair bit but still winnable.

[near jasper]

Lost lace when I dont jump into the void (shes gonna die in 20 minutes eitherway)

[whole holly]

i mean, not a lot of characters endure void, hornet only does because of everbloom

[stray grove]

ONE dung ball and Lace is GONE

[acoustic imp]

zote would

[lone folio]

If lace fought hegamol I doubt she could even get through the armor

[glacial warren]

Still in a general matchup sense Ogrim can stand ground against her even when hopped-up on the silly.

[whole holly]

Ogrim is bum compared to Lost Garmond fight, he is easiest radiant bossfight after all

[stray grove]

That’s generous

[near jasper]

Lace cant beat markoth

[stray grove]

But she definitely stops at SM

[glacial warren]

Of course we all know one of the mightiest beings in canon is the Grey Prince.

[spark valve]

she could get past hornet defender

[whole holly]

i mean i was talking about Lost Lace,

[acoustic imp]

protector?

[stray grove]

Better question what’s the strongest boss she could beat

[near jasper]

Flukemarm

[spark valve]

uuuuuuuuh

[acoustic imp]

not gpz

[glacial warren]

She might be able to beat the Mantis Lords and/or Flukemarm, but trying to fight Soul Warrior or Ogrim likely ends her run.

[stray grove]

She is not beating MLs

[sinful nimbus]

is soul warrior above lords

[spark valve]

she could probably handle soul warrior

[whole holly]

if lace can't beat enemy, lost lace can probably can

[stray grove]

I’d say SW

Yeah

[glacial warren]

Soul Warrior is a significantly tougher fight. It’s the first real roadblock Hollow Knight throws at you.

[whole holly]

Lost Garmond is also really beefy, as well as Summoned Saviour

[stray grove]

Soul Warrior is not stronger than MLs tf

[whole holly]

Zango could beat Ogrim

[spark valve]

soul master she has a disadvantage, I think lost lace beats soul master probably not normal

[stray grove]

LL can make it to Ogrim

Then the run’s over

[blissful harbor]

lost lace loses to ogrim??

glaze much

[glacial warren]

Ye Lost Lace’s Void would sap out the Soul Warrior’s Soul it uses to Cast and Teleport.

[stray grove]

For sure

[near jasper]

Lost lace when I wash her in the waterways water and now she has no void anymore

[sinful nimbus]

tf is LLace gonna do when he tunnels through her void saws

[stray grove]

Lost Lace isn’t that much stronger than regular Lace who is pretty weak by Hallownest standards

[whole holly]

we know Zango beats Ogrim

[stray grove]

Whereas Ogrim is a heavy hitter

[blissful harbor]

what are you basing that off of

[spark valve]

and prime ogrim is crazy

[whole holly]

nothing because Ogrim drowns in void

[acoustic imp]

the first real roadblock is the hole in the middle of dirtmouth

[sinful nimbus]

He can hold his breath

[blissful harbor]

and anyways, lost lace is hitting ogrim with straight void
i don’t think hes durable enough to withstand that
even with how tough he is

[spark valve]

at least lace would murder elderbug

[whole holly]

void will eat his shell and drag him down

[glacial warren]

I meant in terms of facing an enemy that poses a legitimate threat.

[stray grove]

I mean the power level in Pharloom is canonically much lower

[spark valve]

the knight uses way stronger void and white defender is still a fight

[whole holly]

who said that?

[near jasper]

Lost lace when the eternal rain city has water (her void got washed off)

[stray grove]

Hornet mid diffs GMS and no diffs Lace like three times

[acoustic imp]

it would probably be hornet protecter because hornet vs. hornet means 50/50

[stray grove]

And Hornet is B tier in Hallownest

[whole holly]

that's just your headcanon

[glacial warren]

Hornet’s trying her best, man.

[acoustic imp]

our headcanon

[glacial warren]

She’s had a long couple of years.

[spark valve]

yeah her best is just ok

[whole holly]

Zango beats everyone in hallownest, including Mantis Traitor

[spark valve]

she's better than hunter at least

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is on par with the knights I think

[stray grove]

Maybe around that level but I think she’s a bit lower than them in their prime

[whole holly]

me too,star

[stray grove]

She might be a good match for Ogrim now

[spark valve]

hornet 2 vs wd it's not close sis

[stray grove]

But prime Ogrim smokes her

[whole holly]

who wins Lost Lace vs Zango??

[stray grove]

Like it’s not close

[sinful nimbus]

She takes on an Isma

[near jasper]

Me

[spark valve]

one without the kind of combat experience isma has

[whole holly]

really? she does?

[stray grove]

Nyleth is probably a lot weaker

[sinful nimbus]

Knotted Grove

[stray grove]

So true

[glacial warren]

Okay but like. The real question is: Could any Pharloom Boss other than the Grand Mother confront the Watcher Knights and live to tell the tale?

[spark valve]

karm probably

[sinful nimbus]

The hearts probably

[near jasper]

Bell eater

[stray grove]

Karm maybe

[stray grove]

Just Karm the others are bums

[paper mantle]

''How else could we hope to trap one of your pale kin? Or see her consumed with such insatiable efficiency?''

'' Don't play daft. You should well know our family's fixations. Surely you had a hunch?''

Is it possible that the shamans used the void to kill a HB before?

[glacial warren]

There’s just. Six of the damn things.

[stray grove]

No

[sinful nimbus]

The steel masters probably did

[whole holly]

Palestag

[spark valve]

me when I get you

[foggy fractal]

what do we think of fs

[acoustic imp]

tenna

wait that's not pharloom

[stray grove]

Oh yeah I forgot about FS

[acoustic imp]

damn it

[spark valve]

fs could do ok

[stray grove]

She’s probably the hardest enemy Hornet faces besides GMS

[spark valve]

she wouldn't be able to bind

[glacial warren]

First Sinner might do it but. Good god there’s so much revving.

[near jasper]

Bell eater solos the first 60% of hallownest

[stray grove]

I think S tier of Pharloom would be like Hornet GMS Karm FS

[whole holly]

so does Bell Beast

[near jasper]

Why not?

[spark valve]

bell eater is basically just a garpede

[whole holly]

Aknid solos Absolute Radiance, let's be honest

[glacial warren]

Like what do you do when you’re fighting 6 beefy lads that just. Curl up into living sawblades and bulldoze forwards at top velocity.

[spark valve]

watcher knights would hit her

[stray grove]

There are six of them

They’d just jump her

[acoustic imp]

theoretically, if she uses reserve bind and finds a good stone she can bind

[stray grove]

Actually there are a lot more than six but let’s say six

[glacial warren]

Again not to mention they curl up into living sawblades and proceed to rip and tear.

[near jasper]

Why would she need reserve bind 😭

[paper mantle]

[stray grove]

Even with reserve bind she’s cooked bruh the WKs are relentless

[whole holly]

guys we know Zango can beat them, he is such a tank, he will tank everything they give him

[stray grove]

They’re not gonna attack one at a time or two at a time

They’re just gonna go for it

[spark valve]

sly vs every sentinel all at once

[sinful nimbus]

Sly ofc

[stray grove]

Sly wins

[glacial warren]

Sly no diffs.

He’s the goddamn Nailsage.

[spark valve]

obviously sly wins it would just be fun and I'm inviting you to imagine it in your heads because it rocks

[stray grove]

What I’m imagining is Sly spamming cyclone slash

[whole holly]

i have genuine question

[near jasper]

Radiance vs 50 cogflies who wins

[glacial warren]

It would take him fighting Seth or Karmelita to finally face what would feel like a worthy opponent.

[stray grove]

No lol

[spark valve]

one side to side beam and they're all gone

[stray grove]

Sly no diffs both of those

Seth? Really?

[whole holly]

Broken Vessel vs Phantom? who wins

[stray grove]

He gets split in half INSTANTLY

[spark valve]

could ze'mer cleave a chorus in two with one stroke

[near jasper]

Phantom

[stray grove]

Karm maybe could put up a bit of a fight but Sly is faster and MUCH stronger

He’d blitz and bisect her

[glacial warren]

I mean Seth is pretty friggin’ tough all things considered. He single-handedly fought off god-knows how many waves of the Choir. In terms of a single mano-a-mano duel he’s one of the few in Pharloom who could compete with Sly’s Speed and combo ability.

[lone folio]

Phantom is way too fast for a dead corpse to catch up to her

[stray grove]

“Seth is so strong guys he killed literal civilians”

[spark valve]

or they'll simply recongize each others' affinity for spinning attacks and call it a day

[stray grove]

Yeah sorry killing unarmed grannies on their way to church is not a feat

[near jasper]

Seth vs 500 unarmed children who wins

[spark valve]

he literally does that in game

[glacial warren]

Not just civilians, the dude cut down trained soldiers, and in waves by the look of things.

[stray grove]

What trained soldiers

What were they doing there

[near jasper]

Smoking old heart weed

[glacial warren]

Most likely trying to colonize and expand the Citadel, as was the Citadel’s goal.

[stray grove]

Colonize WHERE

THEY BUILT THE SHRINE

[spark valve]

the shrine that they literally built

[whole holly]

which character from Hallownest can actually beat Zango?

[near jasper]

Zote

[foggy fractal]

maybe we need to replace lace age with seth/nyleth shrine discourse

[whole holly]

Zango just passes by and readjusts

[whole holly]

exactly, Andy, you get it

[glacial warren]

All I know is Seth proved a point of resistance and didn’t let them through. And in all the time he’s been sitting out there, no one’s ever gotten past.

[stray grove]

Yeah the only people TRYING to get past were literal PILGRIMS

[near jasper]

His nail is litterally called life ender he soloes the lifeblood man

[foggy fractal]

lace age is dying out 😔 can't be one of the big three anymore

[stray grove]

He was preventing people from using the shrine for its intended purpose

Nobody was attacking that place

The citadel weren’t sending soldiers to attack the shrine they themselves built 😭

[glacial warren]

No no, the corpses out there are Reeds, Bellbearers and such. Like, actual trained members of the Choir’s military force.

[stray grove]

Yeah maybe they wanted to go to church too

[near jasper]

Bell bearers are pilgrims

No?

[glacial warren]

Hell pretty sure there’s even a dead Memoria.

[stray grove]

Choir members are also former pilgrims

[glacial warren]

Ah right. I forget the name but they’re the ones with the tall bell-staffs.

[near jasper]

Envoys

[glacial warren]

Ah right, thank you.

[stray grove]

There is genuinely no reason for the citadel to send an armed force to attack the shrine

[glacial warren]

But yeah no those are the corpses of genuinely trained soldiers of the Citadel’s main force that Seth mowed down out there.

[stray grove]

WHY

[whole holly]

pre-haunting citadel or post-haunting one?

[near jasper]

They wanted to get old heart weed to smoke

[whole holly]

they should just gotten plasmium instead, way better

[stray grove]

Literally doesn’t matter because Seth says he’s always been doing ts

[glacial warren]

I’m not sure what their intentions were, but Nyleth felt threatened enough to pick out a new guardian. Seth took up his post and proceeded to mow down anyone who didn’t turn back when he offered them to.

[near jasper]

New?

What

[glacial warren]

Seth states he is the ‘Last’ guardian chosen to protect, implying there were others stationed before him.

[stray grove]

We'd heard the Citadel once made grudging accord with that creature, sent their servants in reverence, even built a shrine up there somewhere.

Here we honour the seed that sprung the wood.
By her grace may all bugs pass safe to join us and our song

Halt, stranger. I am charged forever to guard the sacred shrine beyond.
Any who wish to pass must cross their weapon with my own.

Some things may be hidden, but never forgotten. The shrine remains to remember the wood's first seed, her that once was and always is. I am the last bound to protect it. Sadly, in that service, many have fallen to my blade.

You may rest here in this sacred place, but know, if you choose to step further, you shall see my weapon raised.

Here you go this is literally all of the information about the shrine that exists read it carefully and you’ll see what the problem is

[near jasper]

They died he wasnt chosen to be the last guardian

[stray grove]

Seth isn’t exclusively attacking Haunted or whatever he attacks literally anyone who tries to pass and always has

He says this

[sinful nimbus]

Nyleth was not threatened because the Citadel wanted to do ??? to a shrine they built 😭

[stray grove]

The only people who have any reason to go to the shrine are those who planned on using it for its intended purpose

So yes he was killing unarmed grannies

[glacial warren]

Ye. So in essence his post is that he protects the Shrine. Anyone who wants in has to be strong enough to defeat him, though no one ever succeeded.

[whole holly]

in all honesty, why is Seth doing it though?

[spark valve]

ah yes the typical test of strength to go to church

[glacial warren]

He states he was ‘bound’ to protect it, so i’m guessing Nyleth selected him to uptake the mantle.

[stray grove]

Wouldn’t it be crazy if every time you wanted to go to church you had to fight a jacked strongman on steroids

[near jasper]

I mean it is typical in pharloom

[spark valve]

not really no in fact kind of the opposite

[foggy fractal]

ig nyleth really wants only those strong enough to enter the shrine huh

[spark valve]

pilgrims are barred from fighting and carrying weapons

[glacial warren]

Not just that but an immortal warrior or at least one with incredible longevity.

[stray grove]

So you see the problem

We'd heard the Citadel once made grudging accord with that creature, sent their servants in reverence, even built a shrine up there somewhere.

Here we honour the seed that sprung the wood.
By her grace may all bugs pass safe to join us and our song

[glacial warren]

Oh yeah fair point. Pilgrims wouldn’t have challenged Seth because they’d know it was a death with. They’re forbidden from being able to fight back, so the duel is unwinnable.

[spark valve]

nyleth is evil the shrine is a death trap designed to feed her the blood of the choir

[stray grove]

“By her grace may all bugs pass safe”

The humble pilgrim murdering bouncer she put there:

[spark valve]

yeah she lets those live so she gets fed other ones later

[near jasper]

Seth is litterally Warriorslop

[glacial warren]

So between the time of the Shrine’s creation and Hornet coming along, Nyleth had a reason to post a guardian at the doorstep, though we don’t yet know why this is.

[stray grove]

No this was always the case

[glacial warren]

We don’t know this.

[stray grove]

No Seth tells us this shit has been going on forever it’s a foundational duty

[glacial warren]

Seth only tells us he was the last guardian chosen for the task. We don’t know at what point Nyleth began selecting guardians.

[stray grove]

I posted the dialogue already

It doesn’t matter it’s a foundational duty with no end

[glacial warren]

Well again we don’t know when the practice started, that’s the crucial gap in time we’re missing.

[sinful nimbus]

we don't know yet why this is

[glacial warren]

Seth tells us he is the last one currently bound to the task, but we don’t know how many were picked before him and, most importantly, when the first guardian was chosen to be bound to that post and why that became necessary.

[stray grove]

That doesn’t matter exactly when it started if Seth presents it as a foundational duty

[whole holly]

i am glad Nyleth is better deity than Grand Mother Silk

[stray grove]

And it still doesn’t make sense

Why is Nyleth posting a guardian to protect a citadel shrine from the citadel

Why is the citadel attacking the shrine they themselves built

[glacial warren]

I wonder if we might get more lore for this in the DLC at some point.

[stray grove]

It’s stupid and nonsensical

[sinful nimbus]

why does he get amnesia

[glacial warren]

I mean. Somewhere along the line the Citadel fell to its own hubris and greed. And it is said they only ‘grudgingly’ built that Shrine for Nyleth.

[stray grove]

Like Seth was presumably there for a reason in an earlier draft then rewrite hell happened and they kept him there without elaborating on his or Nyleth’s lore

[foggy fractal]

so he can play minigames duh

[sinful nimbus]

what are they greedy for

[stray grove]

There’s no rationalizing it I’m sorry

[glacial warren]

So methinks they may have become hostile after their moral compass deteriorated.

[sinful nimbus]

there's nothing in that shrine 😭 🙏

[stray grove]

There is nothing of value in the shrine

[near jasper]

Old heart weed

[stray grove]

Nyleth has no reason to be attached to it

[foggy fractal]

maybe the citadel is just dumb and stupid

🤔

[glacial warren]

Eh, land, power, who knows? All we know is they’re hellbent on expansion and colonization.

[stray grove]

The citadel have no reason to attack it and if they were going to go against the accord then the shrine would serve no purpose and so protecting it would be meaningless

[glacial warren]

There has to be a reason she went to such lengths to defend the Shrine.

[stray grove]

There isn’t that’s the problem 😭

[glacial warren]

There is, we just don’t know that context yet.

[whole holly]

okay we sadly can only speculate about this, arguing is pointless

[spark valve]

it's where her memory lingers even if she isn't there nor is anything else important

[foggy fractal]

I mean given TC's trackrecord maybe they just forgot lmao

like have you seen what they said about their own lore

[stray grove]

Her memory lingers there because it’s where she was worshipped
She’s also been dead for a long time and you know what else has been happening for a long time that’s right Seth killing random pilgrims

[glacial warren]

Possibly.

[sinful nimbus]

dark science, cloning, secrets only the sith knew... 🗣️

[whole holly]

they have lore document, though

[foggy fractal]

and what did that amount to slab fly journal entries?

😭

[stray grove]

TC are just bad writers and didn’t think this through

[whole holly]

guys, do you think we will get City of Steel DLC

[stray grove]

Act 3 went though a lot of rewrites presumably

[glacial warren]

Well. Seth doesn’t kill indiscriminately: He offers whoever approaches a chance to turn back. If they accept to yield, he lets them go on their business. If they refuse, he puts them to the test. No one has ever passed the test until Hornet.

[whole holly]

they should let me write

[stray grove]

What test 😭

[sinful nimbus]

why's he do that tho

[stray grove]

Also no it’s a shrine people went there to worship her

Who wrote the inscription

[glacial warren]

To be worthy of entering the Shrine. No one proved tough enough to enter, so they were cut down.

[stray grove]

Why is there a test of strength 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Yes it fits with the alliteration of Silksong and Sea of Sorrow

[glacial warren]

Likely part of the duty Nyleth imported.

[whole holly]

i agree

[sinful nimbus]

Why tho

[stray grove]

What duty bruh she didn’t even build it

[foggy stratus]

Shrine is like holy ground and stuff. Don't want people dirtying it up with old newspapers and sticks.

[sinful nimbus]

there's just legit no reason to do this the only explanation given was "well the citadel is kinda evil idk"

[stray grove]

Why is she stopping the citadel from using the structure they built so their pilgrims could worship her for its intended purpose this is crazy

At some point you just have to give it up

[spark valve]

they're worshippers going there to honor nyleth they're not gonna be doing that

[whole holly]

also it holds her memory, which is important for her somehow

[sinful nimbus]

the point was to revere nyleth

[stray grove]

Also why would the penalty for that be death

[glacial warren]

Well. Due to what we know from Isamor the Citadel was once more morally sound, but their compass deteriorated across the generations, only getting worse with each new installment of leadership.

[stray grove]

Do you seriously think not a SINGLE pilgrim had ever set foot in the shrine until Hornet

[spark valve]

the citadel was never morally sound it was always a giant slavery engine

[stray grove]

Literally the whole premise

[glacial warren]

Well true but the Bugs themselves at least once had a more pure vision of the future and more care for their fellow Bugs.

[spark valve]

no they didn't

[stray grove]

🥀

[glacial warren]

By the time Hornet finds the place, they’ve turned their backs on the less fortunate and left them to rot.

[spark valve]

they always did that

[glacial warren]

Isamor would claim otherwise.

[spark valve]

isamor is literally propaganda you're baiting

[stray grove]

Literal propaganda 😭

[glacial warren]

He states that the original vision for the place was for them to help one another and reject excess and hubris.

[spark valve]

that's the lie being sold to naive pilgrims

[glacial warren]

It wasn’t a lie, it was how the Bugs once believed in their faith, truly believed in it, not just for their own self-gain. But now Isamor and the values they once stood for are left to collect dust in a sealed corner of the Vaults.

[spark valve]

media literacy is dead

[stray grove]

The entire citadel was founded on the idea that the Weavers could round up and enslave randos to keep GMS sealed instead of doing it themselves and eventually the system (web) grew to become self sustaining

Like the game shoves ts in your face everyone is a slave to the systems of power and wtv

[glacial warren]

Well yes but the Bugs who were recruited once held like. Actual goodwill towards one another and their fellow Pilgrims. That’s what Isamor states.

[stray grove]

Why are you repeatedly citing the literal propaganda 😭

[spark valve]

it's literally all about control and it was the entire time

[glacial warren]

They once believed in genuinely showing one another compassion and being equals in their service to their sleeping God.

[spark valve]

in all being slaves

[stray grove]

SERVICE TO THEIR SLEEPING GOD???????

[spark valve]

slaves to the weavers

[glacial warren]

Well true but they weren’t aware the Weavers were using them.

[spark valve]

this is ragebait nobody is this stupid

[stray grove]

It started as weaver slaves then the weavers realized they were also slaves and handed the slave crown to the conductors who kept the slave factory running and the citadel we see now is just the natural evolution of that

[glacial warren]

They just thought they were doing good honest holy work and worship, none the wiser to what they were actually serving.

[spark valve]

They still think that nothing changed but aesthetic

[glacial warren]

How is me quoting the game’s lore and history ‘ragebait?’

[stray grove]

You’re quoting propaganda

Like this is obviously propaganda in universe I genuinely can’t

[glacial warren]

No, i’m quoting the change in ideals that happened to the Citadel Bugs, the corruption and decline of their morality over the course of their service.

[stray grove]

What change in ideals it’s literally been like this since its inception it just grew in scale as these systems often do but fundamentally it was always about control

[glacial warren]

When Isamor had been around, the original Citadel was a place of humility, built ‘from simple stone’ and intended as a place where the Bugs were equal in their task of shared worship.

[stray grove]

The game is so in your face about this

[stray grove]

That was propaganda they were literally slaves to the weavers the game tells us this?????

[glacial warren]

Yes but the Bugs didn’t start off trying to control each other. The Weavers deceived them into worship but they had an actual sense of community and compassion for each other. That’s what changed as the generations wore on: The power went to their heads and it consumed them.

[sinful nimbus]

With weavers themselves being slaves to power

[stray grove]

Everyone’s a slave

The web ™

[glacial warren]

Ye. The Weavers faced abuse and mistreatment from their Goddess: The Choir faced abuse and mistreatment from the Weavers, and when the Weavers left, they began to abuse and mistreat each other.

[stray grove]

The oppressed become the oppressors???? 🤯

[spark valve]

So it’s exactly the same

Which is the point

Nothing changed the citadel didn’t get less moral

It just changed aesthetic everything was always about power

[glacial warren]

Well again they didn’t start off cruel to each other, the Choir Bugs, as stated by Isamor.

[spark valve]

Holy media literacy moment

[acoustic imp]

the oppressed becometh the oppressors and the oppressed

[stray grove]

Isamor is propaganda this is ragebait

You can’t you just can’t

[glacial warren]

But especially after the Weavers abandoned ship was when the Choir truly began to turn corrupted and their moral compass towards each other deteriorated.

[stray grove]

Yeah everything was great under the weavers everyone was nice to each other and nothing bad ever happened 😊

The Slab:

[glacial warren]

Isamor isn’t propaganda, he’s the last remnant of an era no one in the current-age Citadel cares to remember. He’s the faded relic containing the one surviving hint of evidence that they, as a community, weren’t always so vile and hedonistic.

[daring tendon]

everything wasn’t nice, that’s not the best way to put it imo

it’s more of the religion having a completely different, more “selfless” course if you know what i mean

hello everyone

[spark valve]

There’s nothing to do atp except point and laugh

[stray grove]

Blud would be a Pilgrim irl

[foggy fractal]

There is no slavery in the citadel

https://klipy.com/gifs/no-war-in-ba-sing-se-avatar--k01KPVSW900KHX3YYV0T0GV851C

[glacial warren]

Ye exactly this. Their original intentions had been pure, way back when.

[limpid summit]

Kirb

I was desperate for say that again

You didn’t even look in my direction

[daring tendon]

I still don’t fully agree with you

The intentions of who? The religion? The weavers? The citadel?

[spark valve]

That was sarcastic and the religion is still selfless because it’s about POWER the choir is still slaves as they always were nothing has changed

[glacial warren]

Back when all they knew was ‘The spiders told us to worship, and we shall gladly partake in this holy privilege!’

[spark valve]

There were no pure intentions

[limpid summit]

The weavers’ original intentions were to break themselves free from GMS’s eternal web

[daring tendon]

tone is difficult to understand in text mb

[limpid summit]

They had no regard for other bugs caught in it

[glacial warren]

Again, Isamor directly contradicts this.

[daring tendon]

but yeah totally

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think Isamor is reliable?

[stray grove]

This is like actually comical the pilgrims still believe that even though they just get funneled into the slave factories

[glacial warren]

Well yeah but i’m talking about the Choir/Citadel Bugs, less so the Weavers.

[limpid summit]

If you take Isamor at his word you are programmable

Irl

[stray grove]

Mf actually falling for the citadel propaganda 😭

I can’t

[spark valve]

isamor is a big sign saying we will give you nothing and you should accept and love it

[foggy fractal]

what does isamor even say lmaoooo I didn't read that shit

w larps

[limpid summit]

Y…p y…ap…ap yap

[daring tendon]

isamor jumpscared the hell out of me on my first playthrough

[sinful nimbus]

y'all read silksong dialogue?

[foggy fractal]

psh no?

[sinful nimbus]

i just read the wiki lowk

[foggy fractal]

tuff

[sinful nimbus]

what would we do without the timeline

[glacial warren]

Isamor’s dialogue is a bit choppy from age, but he quotes that the Citadel was a place of simple stone, where all pilgrims were joyously welcomed to partake in their task of worship. They shunned the idea of opulence and excess, so as to remain ‘pure’.

[spark valve]

which is arbitrary and was a doctrine created by weavers to enforce societal control

[daring tendon]

isamor isn’t a reliable narrator simply because he was built by the weavers

[spark valve]

it's no different from the conductors and their opulence

[limpid summit]

Yes that was presumably the Weaver era Citadel which was still a place where atrocities were committed

[spark valve]

it's the same

there's no moral decay it's the same thing

[stray grove]

No actually weaver citadel was great everyone was nice to one another and nothing bad ever happened

[limpid summit]

The creation of sikflies with the silk siphon (judging by Second Sentinel) etc

[daring tendon]

was there a citadel at all before the weavers?

[limpid summit]

No

[daring tendon]

i remember there being none

yeah

[limpid summit]

They made it

[glacial warren]

We do find proof of that original stone Citadel, though. Or at least, surviving bits and pieces, like the Putrified Ducts.

[limpid summit]

Yeah

And the Exhaust Organ

Agenda agenda agenda

[stray grove]

Isamor literally says “give your lives to the citadel in exchange for nothing”

[spark valve]

nobody is saying that the citadel didn't exist in that era people are reading isamor and identifying why it says what it says it's because it's weaver propaganda telling bugs how to behave

[stray grove]

“Be a good slave and do as you’re told”

[limpid summit]

Pharloom economic forum

[spark valve]

it may not even be weaver propaganda there's a good case to be made it's early conductor propaganda

[stray grove]

Whatever it is it’s very obviously propaganda so quoting it repeatedly is quite comical

[limpid summit]

Why did they even name the robot Pious Isamor

[spark valve]

but it doesn't really matter because fundamentally there isn't a difference

[glacial warren]

No, Isamor was pre-Conductor era, before the Citadel became mechanized.

[daring tendon]

to greet the new pilgrims

[spark valve]

'gild yourself in our holy metal to show your devotion' and 'wear nothing live in poverty to show your devotion' are both about showing your devotion not about the thing you do

[spark valve]

isamor itself is mechanized and it talks about the kingdom being bequeathed by the first children

[glacial warren]

He was around when the Citadel, back in its earliest stages, was just a large stone structure rather than the opulent gilded machine it’s become.

[limpid summit]

Stay vigilant always, for those wretched pilgrims who dare relent to their base desires, left unpunished within our pure chorus... their seductive sin... spread like flame...

The flies?

[stray grove]

The citadel being mechanized was a recent thing it wasn’t already mechanized when they took over as evidenced by the fact that their last edict pertains to its mechanization

[limpid summit]

Weavers always had robots and mechanics

[spark valve]

isamor is literally bronze has screws and is a voice recording

[limpid summit]

Servitors

[stray grove]

I don’t think that’s what they meant

By mechanized they’re referring to the core

[glacial warren]

Well yeah but he’s OLD, old as dirt. His copper form has eroded to being mostly green as he oxidized over the course of likely Centuries gathering dust in that Vault.

[limpid summit]

Statue of Piety

[stray grove]

It doesn’t matter how old he is there’s no timeline

[spark valve]

conductors have been in power for a long time it could be conductor propaganda but it doesn't matter because the entire point of the game is that there's no difference between them

[stray grove]

We don’t know when specifically the weavers passed on the burden but also the main theme of the game is literally that nothing has changed so it doesn’t matter

[glacial warren]

There is a very clear timeline for the Citadel and its phases.

[stray grove]

What I’m saying is there’s no way to determine what era Isamor was from

But again it does not matter in the slightest

[glacial warren]

But Isamor is proof that something did change, that it hadn’t always been this bad.

[spark valve]

no you just can't read

[stray grove]

No it’s proof to the contrary you just can’t read and are taking literal propaganda at face value

[spark valve]

it's always been that bad

[limpid summit]

Hollow knight fans can read

[stray grove]

Which is hilarious

[limpid summit]

But can’t analyze

Okay wait zero

[glacial warren]

He was the last sliver of evidence that the Choir Bugs once held some sense of goodwill and community towards each other.

[spark valve]

for great Pharloom, for the first-children who bequeath it to us...

[limpid summit]

Pilgrim!... Cast aside those many sinful hopes for rest and reward... remain pure... within our midst... ask for nothing!

This is classic “you will own nothing and be happy” rhetoric

“Accept your slavery and live without any possessions so we can work you to death”

Literally look at Loam he has the same philosophy

[spark valve]

it's exactly as monstrously demanding of subservience and sacrifice and devaluing of life as the modern citadel nothing is different

[stray grove]

I mean this doesn’t really tell us much

[glacial warren]

Well yeah the same sense of selflessness to the task is present, but the context between Isamor’s era and the era of the Conductors is wildly different.

[spark valve]

no it isn't

[limpid summit]

PK enslaved maggots but the Citadel didn’t do anything wrong

[stray grove]

The weavers were worshipped both during the weaver citadel and the conductor citadel

It’s propaganda

[spark valve]

the first children bequeathed the realm could imply they'd died out and granted rulership to the conductors

[stray grove]

I agree I just don’t think it’s conclusive

[spark valve]

it's not

[glacial warren]

Isamor states the Pilgrims should not fall victim to vices like their base desires, to shun opulence and excess. Conductor-era Citadel is the exact opposite of that image.

[spark valve]

it's the same

[limpid summit]

I would personally guess Pious Isamor was weaver era but like early conductor era is fine too

[spark valve]

.

[glacial warren]

It is literally the exact opposite.

[limpid summit]

Zero

[spark valve]

yeah because you don't understand the actual message the game is trying to convey

neither the fancy gold nor the stone are about the gold or the stone it's about creating a system of control

[glacial warren]

I understand the message perfectly well.

[limpid summit]

Destitution or opulence the point is both of the Citadel’s masters didn’t learn from their previous examples and continued subjugating bugs

[spark valve]

clearly you don't since you think one represents a state of moral decay

[stray grove]

It’s about the system itself

[glacial warren]

Well yes but the original point I was trying to make is that the Citadel Bugs didn’t used to always be this cruel to each other. There used to be some sense of genuine brotherhood and camaraderie before it all went to hell and they turned on each other.

[stray grove]

The masters who are also slaves to the system and are forced to keep it running

[limpid summit]

The point of Isamor is that the same message is espoused by the more recent Conductor era
It’s simply pivoted from “scarcity is devotion” to “extravagance is devotion”
The conductors did not meaningfully change the system

[limpid summit]

What

[spark valve]

you're just making up this idea that the choir turned on itself that didn't happen

[limpid summit]

Who turned on who

What are these groups

[lapis creek]

i feel like these are two different sentences

like sure there may have been a "sense" of camaraderie but this is the basis of the propaganda

[spark valve]

you're also just reading propaganda and assuming that that actually reflects the state of the citadel then

[limpid summit]

They buried the old Citadel but the old Citadel is the new Citadel with a different coat of paint

[spark valve]

(which we know it doesn't due to the slabflies btw)

[limpid summit]

Just like the Weavers were GMS

[lapis creek]

theres still underlying cruelty in that people are being exploited by the design of the system

[limpid summit]

Cheese let’s larp

[foggy fractal]

larp what

silksong?

[spark valve]

which is the same exact cruelty of the modern citadel

nothing has changed except the aesthetic

[stray grove]

It’s funny because the slab is literally ancient and existed since weaver citadel contrary to the claim that the weaver era was great and everyone respected and got along with one another actually

[limpid summit]

The sentinels are also (probably) weaver era and like “brought forced to serve the citadel”

[foggy fractal]

if only the game showed us this 😔 why did tc make weavers such assholes?

[stray grove]

I disagree

[spark valve]

because isamor is a con

[limpid summit]

You don’t think they are

?

[stray grove]

I think the sentinels are early conductor era yes but again it does not actually matter

[limpid summit]

The citadels

Second Citadel

[stray grove]

Sir a plane has hit the second citadel

[limpid summit]

No I know it doesn’t matter but that topic is more interesting than this one

What do you think

[foggy fractal]

😱

😨

😱

😱

[spark valve]

no no the sentinel says it was there to just keep them safe there's nothing untoward going on we can trust what the sentinel was programmed to say

[limpid summit]

Oh wait

I guess that’s the relevant aspect

Sure

[glacial warren]

Actually come to think of it, the fact of what Isamor says contradicts the Conductor’s current order in the Citadel might explain why he was buried so deep in the Vaults, to the point he was even sealed away behind the walls.

[limpid summit]

I meant as far as the timeline

Weaver or Conductor

[limpid summit]

Or they just don’t want a guy talking about excess is sin while they wear giant gold hats

Could be either

[stray grove]

I think it’s the former

[spark valve]

they did a rebrand

[floral quiver]

It does. Just a different set of morals than modern people.

The citadel once shunned excess and wealth, it called bugs to service knowing that they would stand without, that they would come to holy purpose with toil and little else given. The modern citadel claimed to its pilgrims wealth unending, glory and prosperity in its golden halls.

The old citadel was honest. It was work and toil. The modern citadel was dishonest, it claimed bugs would want for nothing while existing off the backs of the faithful.

There is moral decay, just moral decay in the mindset of the Citadel.

[lapis creek]

theres an incinerator like 5 meters away in one direction and a shredder like immediately below him why would they try to hide him away if he was a threat to their narrative

[limpid summit]

The old citadel was NOT honest

[stray grove]

Tammo vs illiteracy

[spark valve]

an endless battle

[lapis creek]

which, again, requires that the community continue to give of themselves for reasons

[stray grove]

Nah everyone got along great

[limpid summit]

Give all of yourself... for great Pharloom, for the first-children who bequeath it to us... for our salvation sure to come!

The pilgrims of the Weaver era were promised heaven not told they were sealing their rulers’ mother

[stray grove]

They were united in their genuine desire to do the right thing

[spark valve]

they were united in their desire to serve the holy citadel exactly like they still are now because nothing changed

[stray grove]

Everyone loved and cared for each other and it was a thriving utopia

[limpid summit]

Ai text to speech villain origin stories

“The weavers were a group of misunderstood sisters”

[stray grove]

But everything changed when the conductors lost sight of the dream we once held dear

[foggy fractal]

weavergpt

🤔

[glacial warren]

I mean if nothing else at least the worst they had to worry about was the Weavers’ mistreatment and putting a Goddess to bedtime ad infinitum.

[spark valve]

grokarn

[limpid summit]

Worst they had to worry about

[stray grove]

Grand mother silk was a washed up roadside higher being who beat up children and stole their silk credits

[spark valve]

the weavers literally established the slab

[lapis creek]

claudril

[stray grove]

I mentioned the slab like ten times

[glacial warren]

By the time the Conductors came into power, their religion became a full-stop scam just so a select few of the ‘most devout’ would live lives of opulence, comfort and luxury, while the less fortunate slave away down in the smog and dust.

[spark valve]

hey cindril didn't do nothin

[limpid summit]

Mfs were always slaving down in the smog and dust

[spark valve]

it was always a scam

[lapis creek]

TRUE

[spark valve]

isamor is pitching a scam

[limpid summit]

This is not real

[glacial warren]

Well true but at least originally they didn’t aim it at each other.

[spark valve]

they did to the exact same extent

[limpid summit]

By the grace of the Citadel, I am here as a penitent. Here, I can hide from the shame of my sins until they are withered away by time.
Leave this place...? Please! Strike me down dead before you speak such blasphemy again!

[glacial warren]

Not nearly to the same extent. Again, Isamor is proof of this.

[spark valve]

it really isn't

[floral quiver]

And they weren't lied to.

They were told they would enact their liturgy without opulence, for little to no material gain and it was so.

That their true reason was to hold a Goddess at bay matters little when the issue is how the citadel treated its members, subjects and neighbors.

The Citadel was more morally upright in the early days because it didn't lie to its members.

[lapis creek]

the existence of propaganda proves the propaganda is true

[stray grove]

Unfortunately one of their sisters had a horrible disease so the kind weavers worked hard to invent a new treatment for her so they could all live together happily

[glacial warren]

Like it wasn’t utopia or anything hut it wasn’t nearly to the extreme of horrors like the Underworks existing.

[spark valve]

it literally was they were slaves

[limpid summit]

Zero who do you think the higher being tablets are written for

[spark valve]

the slab existed

[floral quiver]

So members of a religious sect are slaves then?

[limpid summit]

And the flies were asking for it

[spark valve]

I can't believe anyone is this gullible about something you are spoon fed is bullshit

[limpid summit]

I like pancakes
So you hate waffles?

[lapis creek]

is the idea here that the underworks didnt exist in their current form until the weavers took over

[sinful nimbus]

silksong teaches us that some slaves are more deserving of sympathy than others maybe they were just using the bad slaves that didn't bathe

[stray grove]

this channel ain’t ready for that conversation

[floral quiver]

The idea is the Underworks didnt exist until the Conductors started automating things

[foggy fractal]

all roads lead back to slabfly journal entries I can't believe it

[limpid summit]

The underworks isn’t part of the Core

[stray grove]

But also like yes organized religion bad lmao

[limpid summit]

You have confessed a sin most grave and must by works cleanse yourself.
Return to your task and work off-cycle, neither eating nor supping until new-cycle begins.
By the grace of Pharloom eternal, may you never tire. Toil, and be forgiven.

[lapis creek]

sorry until the weavers left

misspoke

[glacial warren]

The Underworks is a truly dark, dark place.

[floral quiver]

The Underworks supports the modern citadel. The part built on top of the original stone building.

[spark valve]

how nice of the conductors to offer forgiveness! they're so kind

[limpid summit]

What

[sinful nimbus]

Lomm will tithe 10% of his income towards the chapel of the alchemist

[spark valve]

the messaging there is like identical to isamor btw

[stray grove]

Oh shit is that the budget for the dlc

[glacial warren]

It’s weird to think how corrupt most of the Conductors were but then by the time Hornet enters the picture, the only one left is Ballador but he’s also like. A genuinely polite guy.

[stray grove]

It’s almost like the conductors aren’t actually the problem or something idk

[lapis creek]

i mean

[glacial warren]

He greets her cordially despite her very clearly being an intruder and even apologizes for his bedridden state leaving him unable to rise to greet her formally.

[spark valve]

funny how though aesthetics change the messaging is basically the same it's almost like
it's almost like
it's almost like the point is that there's no difference

[sinful nimbus]

yoke

[floral quiver]

The major parts of the citadel in the modern era are later constructions. Not original. They are part of the machine built to automate the Song.

[stray grove]

yoke nonsense

[foggy fractal]

mmmmm

yoke

🤤

[lapis creek]

the haunting has turned everything over but he also continues to benefit from the system that has enslaved basically everyone outside of his caste

[stray grove]

The conductors are also slaves

Larp

[spark valve]

he's polite so he must be a good guy

[glacial warren]

I mean. Is ‘benefit’ really the right word, given his state?

[lapis creek]

idk the logistics of how he got the silk that is sustaining him but thats greymoor's economy right there

[stray grove]

The conductors are bad guys but it’s reductive to claim they’re the cause of all the citadel’s ills or whatever the argument here is

[glacial warren]

The guy can’t even get out of bed and he sounds like just continuing to live is an agonizing experience for him.

[lapis creek]

they certainly could do something about some of them though right

[stray grove]

Not really and it doesn’t matter

[lapis creek]

or could have done

[stray grove]

The citadel is fundamentally a slave factory and was always going to be one

[lapis creek]

the citadel isnt doing great at the time of the game

[stray grove]

Because of the haunting

[lapis creek]

yeah

[glacial warren]

Ye like the Conductors were definitely morally corrupt given they masterminded modern-era Citadel and all the horrors that came with it, though they’re also exceptionally tragic given how a Conductor comes to be.

[spark valve]

maybe but that isn't really the point and it would kind of be destructive to the larger themes if they did somehow magically fix everything

[spark valve]

they're not tragic

they just get the role

[lapis creek]

sure i agree with that

[spark valve]

and weavers are as morally corrupt as they were old citadel was just as bad

[glacial warren]

The cost of that role is excruciating, though.

[stray grove]

The conductors are a cog in the slave machine that is the citadel

[spark valve]

no it isn't

[limpid summit]

You could call the creation of the core somewhat good in a sense but they’re still bad people

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think TC kicks themselves in the shin for not thinking about the yoke not crown line when claiming King's Brand

[glacial warren]

The last surgery of Conductor Mizello:

[limpid summit]

That’s HIS fault

[spark valve]

is not about becoming a conductor

[floral quiver]

A major issue with the Conductors is zealotry.

Everything is to keep the Song going forever.

Nothing is beyond sacrifice.

[spark valve]

that's about gaining immortality

[limpid summit]

He wanted to become immortal

He was already a conductor

[foggy fractal]

no what you think they go back and think about their lore? they're too busy making dlcs for that

[spark valve]

conductors are in charge they're the ones who mandated the surgeries

[stray grove]

In HK TK actually accepts and overcomes that burden knowing the implications of it

[sinful nimbus]

truth nuke

[limpid summit]

You think they just asked makoto to say some bs on the mic

[glacial warren]

Ballador’s thoughts often drift to how the cost of taking up the mantle wears on him, on the cost of becoming a Conductor.

[spark valve]

it's about the burden of rule not about a surgery

literally can't read

[sinful nimbus]

that's why king's brand > the abyss sequence is so tuff fr

[stray grove]

Never compare the burden of my glorious king to the yoke of having to run the slave factory ever again

[glacial warren]

Not ‘a’ surgery. Multiple. Plural.

[stray grove]

What the fuck is this 😭

[spark valve]

the literacy crisis strikes again

[glacial warren]

God only knows how many trips to the Whiteward it takes before the Conductors are ‘finished’.

[limpid summit]

Yeah each conductor that wanted to become immortal had multiple surgeries over a period of time

They didn’t NEED to be immortal

[spark valve]

zero because that's not a thing

[limpid summit]

They got greedy later in their rule

[lapis creek]

ballador is ok with being in power he is actually just dying of sepsis

[stray grove]

How does one arrive at this conclusion

Genuinely

[limpid summit]

Conductors wear the masks because they’re heavily scarred underneath from all the surgeries they need to graciously accept rule

https://tenor.com/view/king-king-baldwin-king-baldwin-4-rikoamv-riko-amv-gif-8479237540916603760

[stray grove]

Is that the aura king

I’m actually dying man this is so funny

[glacial warren]

Well looking at Ballador’s thoughts, he laments the cost of becoming a Conductor. And the fact that the ‘last’ surgery of Conductor Mizello implies they have to undergo who even knows how many procedures.

[spark valve]

no it doesn't

[sinful nimbus]

The cost of the conductor is ruling the Citadel which is yoke not crown

[spark valve]

we know what the whiteward surgeries were for it's not for that

[limpid summit]

“The mantle of conductor weighs heavy. Had I known the cost before its bearing, would I have accepted the duty?”

The duty is the burden

[glacial warren]

We know what some of the surgeries were for, not all of them.

[limpid summit]

To keep GMS sealed is a daunting task

[stray grove]

“Damn if I knew the surgeon wasn’t going to sterilize his shit I wouldn’t be dying of sepsis right now huh”

[limpid summit]

Some of them were for silkflies some of them were for silk injection

[sinful nimbus]

Unravelled wears a conductor helmet its not that difficult to piece together

It was one of the silk surgeries for longevity like everything in whiteward

[stray grove]

Conductor Mizello the goat

[sinful nimbus]

You get the cylinder right after unravelled too

[limpid summit]

Is our state so bare, pilgrim?... "By the will of the Conductors," we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree.
But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.
What? No, I’m not talking about sealing Grand Mother Silk. I’m sick as hell

[limpid summit]

Mizello was a brave young man who always wanted to provide for the Citadel that had taken him in

[glacial warren]

Like. The main thing that really got me thinking about this is the realization that we don’t ever see signs of Conductors being born. We see the younger equivalents of the Judges and the Scrollreaders. They’re bred into their roles and grow into their later forms. But we never see this with the Conductors. So that begged the question of: How does one become a Conductor?

[limpid summit]

I presume there was no elevation to conductor

Maybe they lived very long or all tried to undergo the surgeries or both

[floral quiver]

Rising through the ranks of the Choir?

[glacial warren]

I know but still, the fact they’re all so unnaturally huge and leave their bodies fully obscured at all times.

[stray grove]

Ok can I just ask

[floral quiver]

Being stuffed with Silk.

[stray grove]

What is the point of these surgeries

[limpid summit]

Well it goes regular Choir then High Halls then like Clapper

[spark valve]

Everyone is forced to undergo the surgeries

[stray grove]

Like so what if the conductors are big

[spark valve]

It’s not a conductor thing it’s a citadel wide thing

Sickness and death are banned

[stray grove]

Why would they need to have choir members undergo surgery to make them bigger before becoming conductors

[limpid summit]

Bug that serves must never die could also just be becoming a silkfly too though

Whiteward’s intended purpose

[floral quiver]

Such that even high members of the sect are subject ro such things

[daring tendon]

I say that them becoming bigger is a thing closely related to/similar to how bugs that consume too much soul bloat

Might be the same with silk after numerous surgeries

[stray grove]

Everyone underwent those surgeries

[daring tendon]

Yeah but to a different scale though

[spark valve]

Not really

[daring tendon]

If I’m not hallucinating information

[stray grove]

That wouldn’t make sense

The objective was the same for everyone

[floral quiver]

Hell, the person that tells about sickness being a sin was the Fourth of The Fourth.

[stray grove]

The conductors are just fat they’re also not substantially bigger than a lot of choir members and shit like grand reeds and clappers exist

Haha clappers

[sinful nimbus]

IJBOL

[foggy fractal]

maybe conductors are just a different species idk

[limpid summit]

Clappers

Conductors are probably just Lugolis

[foggy fractal]

reed -> grand reed
lugoli -> grand lugoli

🤔

[stray grove]

Lugoli was a kind chef who always made food for the needy

[spark valve]

Nobody is ready for grand lugolis

[spark valve]

Made food of* the needy

[foggy stratus]

Ass Jim.

[spark valve]

Prepositions are hard it’s ok

[stray grove]

Isn’t it crazy how WE all glaze Hunter even though he literally eats people but when Lugoli does it he’s an evil monster even though that might actually be consensual

[limpid summit]

Hunter is barely even sapient

It’s okay

[floral quiver]

Who glazes Hunter?

[stray grove]

What are you talking about 😭

[floral quiver]

Why?

[spark valve]

Hunters mostly eating zombies and he’s more interesting than a good guy

[limpid summit]

Hunter is AWESOME

[sinful nimbus]

its me

[limpid summit]

HJ entries in HK have so much sauce compared to SS

[stray grove]

Me me me

[foggy fractal]

espeicially when you have stuff like the ss wingsmoulds and slabflies

💔

[limpid summit]

Would you rather have glazing GMS exposition or

The light, forgotten.
The plague, the infection, the madness that haunts the corpses of Hallownest... the light that screams out from the eyes of this dead Kingdom. What is the source? I suppose mere mortals like myself will never understand.

[stray grove]

He’d eat them even if they weren’t zombies and is a bit of a weirdo for that though if you deep it fr

But it’s ok WE still love him

[sinful nimbus]

he has a consistent moral framework

[stray grove]

But we should extend that to Lugoli too

[floral quiver]

Would I like to have purple prose?

Not necessarily.

[sinful nimbus]

hornet doesn't she doesn't stand for anything

[foggy fractal]

I'm sad that no one has made a hunter boss fight mod yet

[stray grove]

She stands for the extermination of flies

[spark valve]

Yeah but he’s also not meant to be a chill guy

[spark valve]

Deviator

[sinful nimbus]

Hunter boss was so tuff I wish it wasn't parryslop

That doesn't strike me as purple prose its pretty simple

[spark valve]

Lugoli is also potentially interesting but doesn’t really get enough opportunities to be

[stray grove]

Nah he’s p chill could you imagine popping open a couple vials of gulka venom and chatting about idk philosophy or some shi

[limpid summit]

Yeah good thing Silk “daughter of Hallownest” Song has none

[sinful nimbus]

there's one interesting description in there

[limpid summit]

Devotion or destruction is purple prose

HK doesn’t have much purple prose besides like Mask Maker

[stray grove]

I guess Hunter killed his dog for no reason and hopes TK will one day kill him maybe he’d just kill and eat me in this hypothetical

[sinful nimbus]

Even if only your shadow remains, to release your mother's grip my blade would see it slain.

[stray grove]

Then muse about it in his diary

[sinful nimbus]

Bro did she seriously rhyme mid convo

[spark valve]

He would

[spark valve]

She’s so lame

[stray grove]

Him killing his dog is actually so funny peak HK writing

[floral quiver]

HK doesnt have much prose in general.

[spark valve]

They should’ve written hornet like Leon Kennedy then the goofiness wouldn’t come off as unintentional and just cringe

[limpid summit]

No blazing kin.

Beacon tablet made me choke genuinely

It was so tuff

[sinful nimbus]

Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed went so hard

OK it wasn't that hard

[stray grove]

Ok let’s go top 10 HK characters with the most aura

[limpid summit]

Alr

[limpid summit]

It’s tha serious

Okay so let’s see

[stray grove]

Bro is doing tricks on it

[limpid summit]

PV is 1

[stray grove]

No

[limpid summit]

Yes

[stray grove]

PK is 1

[limpid summit]

Don’t say PK

Stop

[stray grove]

PK canonically had the most aura

Like genuinely

[spark valve]

Pk pv sly Ze’mer dryya uuh knight

[sinful nimbus]

PK then TK

[dusk garnet]

Fay forn for sure

[sinful nimbus]

Regular THK has slightly more aura

Why is Dryya over the knight

Why is Ze'mer over the knight she's not that tuff

Sly is true

[spark valve]

Look at her

[stray grove]

Dryya has so much aura be fr

She aura farmed on those mantis traitors

[spark valve]

Ze’mer also has a fuckin buster sword

[stray grove]

She’s also mysterious n shi

Mysterious wanderer with a giant sword is like prime aura farming

[spark valve]

Maybe she should get demerits for being connected to the stupid flowers

[sinful nimbus]

Ulll Waaaaii! Che's sacred, precious, one of its kind flower. Ruined. Che's love, denied her final gift. Such suffering for che'. Such misery. Che' thought she could bear no more.

...I suppose, che' does have one more flower though.
this was funny ngl

detracts from the aura though

drama queen

[limpid summit]

PK PV Sly Hunter TK Dryya Ze’mer Vespa Sheo NMH

[stray grove]

She has a sense of humor

[limpid summit]

I wonder how this looked to TK

[stray grove]

Imagine Nailsage aura

[spark valve]

Sheo actually has crazy aura

[stray grove]

Yeah

[sinful nimbus]

little grub

[spark valve]

The strongest nailmaster who turned away from his art but has never forgotten it

[sinful nimbus]

Mato better

[stray grove]

NArts are probably aura in universe

[limpid summit]

Hegemol meeting Sly

[stray grove]

Sheo canonically has aura

[sinful nimbus]

Great slash isn't that cool Cyclone def is

[limpid summit]

Great slash isn’t cool on us it’s cool on Sheo

[foggy fractal]

erm guys... this is SILKSONG discussion.... we need to talk about who has most aura in silksong instead!!!

[stray grove]

Nobody in SS has aura though

[sinful nimbus]

crawfather everyone already agrees

WATE close behind

[stray grove]

Except Crawdaddy

[limpid summit]

Sharpe is coming

[sinful nimbus]

Sharpe needs a lot of upscales to match up to the legend

[stray grove]

Sharpe is already going to say some edgy shit that’s gonna dilute all of his aura

[sinful nimbus]

I need him to wipe out the AC it would unironically be so funny

[spark valve]

meet potential contractual obligation to a backer that didn't even get notified

[sinful nimbus]

Then show us a compressed white lady

[foggy fractal]

crawfather was awesome one of the few bosses that I didn't get spoiled on
I was wondering in act1 if that door would actually open and it did suprisingly

[limpid summit]

Aura

[stray grove]

This fight has crazy aura

[limpid summit]

That would be awesome

I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment by (wrongly) thinking that the Steelhearts are HB wranglers

The masters had aura in HK

Now eh

[sinful nimbus]

We all know TC reads fanfic its gonna happen

[limpid summit]

They can still salvage

[sinful nimbus]

Lifeblood infection

[limpid summit]

Yeah maybe not

LBB has 0 aura

[stray grove]

Lace: Tch... Hahahaa. Marvelous! So the spider knows something of fathomless beings, and still it hopes to stand against one, a god...
Where do you hide this boundless strength you claim, spider? I've watched your struggle towards us. Yours was a painful, broken trek. One needs grace to stand before the divine.
Hornet: Then best you listen well, child. Your liege’s power is but a pale shadow beside the truly fathomless.
Hornet: The White Wyrm from whom I draw this boundless strength was no pretender scraping dominion from a shallow pond. He was a true god. One who, true to his title, ruled over a land of gods and bent them to his will.
Hornet: Measure your master against that, and tell me again who deserves the title of divine.

If Hornet said this instead I’d give her a pass to aura farm

[sinful nimbus]

PK being assassinated is probably gonna happen too

I mean with all the void stuff

[covert night]

that would be cool ngl

[sinful nimbus]

"pale shadow" is bad change that

[stray grove]

No it wouldn’t I would cry

[sinful nimbus]

nonsense

otherwise tuff

[stray grove]

Nah it works you don’t get the vision

[spark valve]

hornet being dismissive of gods in that dialogue is fine even if it's cheesy as hell how she says it

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/donut-glaze-satisfying-gif-13180530

[stray grove]

Yeah the dialogue is fine

[spark valve]

it applies to radiance who had been doing the same thing as gms it's a very 1:1 parallel

[stray grove]

But it was an opportunity to glaze PK

[sinful nimbus]

Its an aura loss for everyone involved

[stray grove]

TC decided to make her hate her dad for no reason

[sinful nimbus]

GMS loses aura cuz her glaze got immediately undercut and Hornet loses aura cuz she's corny

[stray grove]

Lace loses aura because she’s Lace

Actually what is the canonical reason for Hornet disliking PK there just isn’t one is there

[spark valve]

lace doesn't need aura

[foggy fractal]

Hornet is already in like a -1000 aura debt whats a few more points off y'know?

[sinful nimbus]

Lace has a ton of aura right here idk why they didn't do that in the Citadel

[stray grove]

Don’t say Vessel project because she’s besties with WL

[covert night]

immeasurable levels of pale king larp, i love it

[sinful nimbus]

she is not her kin, maker

[stray grove]

No larp whatsoever my goat deserves ALL the glaze

[stray grove]

What so does WL get a pass

[covert night]

tbh i think the citadel dialogue between lace and hornet is fine

[stray grove]

It is

[covert night]

though i dont remember most of them

[sinful nimbus]

The cost of so much grandeur... Did I peer closely enough into the foundations of my own kingdom?

[stray grove]

Genuinely what is she talking about here

[floral quiver]

Maggots

[stray grove]

Did TC actually intend for us to consider that Hallownest was built on slave labour

[drifting elbow]

bitch

[sinful nimbus]

White Lady was strong in mind, in care, in claw

[spark valve]

look if you just ignore the first game this line is fine

[limpid summit]

The problem with the game is that it can’t decide whether a rhetorical question means “yes this happened” or if it’s just Hornet musing

[floral quiver]

Yes otherwise why bring up forced menial labor?

[limpid summit]

See with Hunter he’s never on the money

Uoma entry

[sinful nimbus]

yea I remember the plotpoint where maggots got enslaved and built the entirety of the capital

[stray grove]

We’re just meant to smile and nod

[sinful nimbus]

white palace too

[stray grove]

The maggots weren’t even slaves

[limpid summit]

I loved it when failed champions ghost said “the history of all Hallownest has hitherto been the history of maggot struggles”

[stray grove]

There was no institutionalized slavery in Hallownest forced menial labour means them not getting good jobs n shit

[spark valve]

I mean in this case it's musing

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-nodding-yes-yea-gif-6093082880304835522

[stray grove]

Yeah but Hornet is presented as knowledgeable

She isn’t going to say completely inaccurate shit for no reason

[spark valve]

she doesn't

she muses

[stray grove]

The line is incoherent

[sinful nimbus]

Not an amusing question

[floral quiver]

She muses and compares a lot.

[spark valve]

it's fine in context

[sinful nimbus]

Uoma was better

[stray grove]

It’s the same with the wingmould entry the only way those work is if she literally wasn’t there

[sinful nimbus]

bro thought his ancestors were in fog canyon 😭

[stray grove]

Or has amnesia or something

[limpid summit]

Does this mean when Hornet asks “was FS the first to weave runes” we can say No

[spark valve]

hunter journal entries mog hers in every case

[stray grove]

The context is she sees a slave factory and wonders if Hallownest also had one of those bro

[limpid summit]

I hate slavery I said to myself

[sinful nimbus]

That's corroborated by other evidence tbf

[floral quiver]

Or she just genuinely doesnt like her father and has no reason to put him on a pedestal.

[limpid summit]

But why

[spark valve]

hornet hates slaves more than she hates slavery

[limpid summit]

She likes her mother

[sinful nimbus]

How could anyone ever genuinely dislike PK

Nonsense

[stray grove]

There’s a difference between not putting her father on a pedestal and just lying

[limpid summit]

He’s pretty cool once you get to know him

[stray grove]

Like in that particular entry she criticizes him for attempting something he was ultimately successful in

[sinful nimbus]

If she slandered her mother in entries it would be kinda true lowk

Queen's Gardens was built on the backs of child workers and child warriors

[stray grove]

Hornet has no reason to dislike the guy it’s just bad writing

[floral quiver]

By chance. He failed and died and only "won" when his kingdom was an empty shell.

[limpid summit]

She should have made more HK point and stare references

Actually the Groal one pmo

[stray grove]

I mean she has reasons to dislike him but those should also extend to WL

[sinful nimbus]

what about the hollow knight or kingsmoulds🥀

those did his bidding

[foggy fractal]

what about the wingsmoulds themselves

[stray grove]

But no she seems to understand and forgive WL since it was a necessary evil surely Hornet should know all about necessary evils given she was also killing Vessels for ages

[foggy fractal]

tf do they do

[stray grove]

But no PK sucks and is irredeemable and Hornet hates him even though he did the right thing ok

[limpid summit]

So you knew about the dude who destroyed the entire capital city and didn’t step to him

What a bum

[stray grove]

WL is an amazing loving mother

[sinful nimbus]

Seek your wonders, but know you may find someone waiting 🥶 🥶 🔥 🔥 🗣️ 🗣️ 💯 💯

[stray grove]

That one is acc tuff

[sinful nimbus]

No its not bro

Feels awkward

[limpid summit]

Aura off

[foggy fractal]

qurriel mogged

[stray grove]

This is aura loss

[sinful nimbus]

"Know you may find someone waiting" vaguepost king

[stray grove]

Quirrel mogged her

[limpid summit]

Who is she even talking about

Monomon?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[spark valve]

she recognizes the mask

[covert night]

"voilence" -1000 aura again

[limpid summit]

Why

Yeah I don’t like that

[foggy fractal]

that's on tc

[sinful nimbus]

does it actually say voilence 🥀

[limpid summit]

I didn’t even notice that wtf

[stray grove]

It’s tuff shut up

[limpid summit]

Dumbass Quirrel

[foggy fractal]

we should always blame it on tc

[limpid summit]

This is like the WL typos

[foggy fractal]

slabfly journals?

tc.

[stray grove]

Quirrel got hit with the WL can’t spell beam

[foggy fractal]

act 3?

tc.

[sinful nimbus]

why does WL not make typos in RM

retcon?

[foggy fractal]

yerah

[limpid summit]

Do we underestimate how powerful this mask was

[covert night]

Do I almost feel fear?

[limpid summit]

That was like one hit

[sinful nimbus]

its like mr mushroom

[stray grove]

Ok but seriously guys stop goofing around

[spark valve]

hornet's memory is imperfect

[stray grove]

Why does Hornet hate PK

[limpid summit]

Star do you think WL is annoying to talk to

[sinful nimbus]

Even if only your shadow remains, to release your mother's grip my blade would see it slain.

[limpid summit]

She arbitrarily switches from third to second person

All the time

[stray grove]

Is she just jealous of him

That’s like the only explanation I can accept

[limpid summit]

I thought it was just cause she didn’t see TK as human but she does it to Hornet too

[sinful nimbus]

That rabbit is not human bro

[stray grove]

The only way anyone could hate on PK is if they were genuinely stupid which Hornet is

[sinful nimbus]

Her HK dialogue was tuff ngl

[foggy fractal]

folk...

[floral quiver]

He didn't do the right thing. He sacrificed millions for his kingdom eternal.

He turned unborn children into near mindless weapons, raised one to be imprisoned forever holding a furious god.

That's not "right".

[sinful nimbus]

Its annoying when she has nothing to say though

[stray grove]

The thing is it didn’t feel like she hated him in HK

You’d think Hornet would understand what needed to be done given her role in that game and all

[limpid summit]

He sacrificed millions for what

Trillions

[stray grove]

She also forgives WL

[limpid summit]

We don’t even know how many Vessels there are

[foggy fractal]

at least 2

last time I checked

[sinful nimbus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

[limpid summit]

4

[foggy fractal]

???

[stray grove]

Actually an indefinite number of future generations

[foggy fractal]

there were 4???

man..

[stray grove]

In terms of numbers he was absolutely in the right it ain’t close

Even the failed vessel project was a net positive

[limpid summit]

Yeah but like I’m being generous and assuming some equally insurmountable disaster would have caused the fall of Hallownest anyway billions of years in the future

[covert night]

3 is fine but i draw the line at 4

[spark valve]

sure but not in ways he foresaw

[limpid summit]

I can’t believe we’re still doing “PK was unjustified” in the big 2026

[floral quiver]

Enough that the floor of their birthplace is covered in corpses such that the Knight walks on the pile rather than the floor itself.

[limpid summit]

People see a giant corpse pile and lose all comprehension