sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

"Gee Willikers where did Nyleth's statue go!"

Grindle's suspiciously Nyleth statue shaped hat:

[stray grove]

Why would Nyleth even care bruh

“shrine to her glory” the citadel built it

It’s part of their accord

If the citadel said fuck the accord what good would maintaining the shrine do

[near jasper]

Why are we assuming seth was originally appointed to kill all people that went there

[stray grove]

Why would she send some random guy to kill people attempting to get access

[spark valve]

why are we 'assuming' his job is what he says his job is 💀

[stray grove]

He literally tells Hornet that’s his job

[spark valve]

Halt, stranger. I am charged forever to guard the sacred shrine beyond.

Any who wish to pass must cross their weapon with my own.
this is not presented as a task that has or will ever change

in fact he says there used to be a lot more people doing the same thing he is which is even more stupid

[stray grove]

Rewrite hell

You love to see it

[near jasper]

Seth mightve just been a regular guard and had to start keeping it away from anyone after the haunting

[stray grove]

His ass was never a regular guard READ

[spark valve]

the way he presents it is as a foundational duty bruh

[stray grove]

Why would the haunted even attack the shrine none of this makes any sense
Why would the shrine need a guard in the first place why would Nyleth invest resources into protecting a shrine the citadel built that the citadel was now attacking

There’s nothing of value there it’s literally just a shrine

Anyway Seth says that there were a bunch of pilgrims going there before

Eternal defender of Shellwood Shrine. His pin and cymbal show many marks of their use.
This also calls him an eternal defender lol

[spark valve]

he even has the gall to pretend to be sad about it

like lol

'unfortunately I had to kill all those little old ladies headed to church'

[stray grove]

Why is his music sad

There’s no in universe reason for there to be anything sad about this guy

He’s just a straight up murderer maybe that’s why Hornet gets along with him so well

[spark valve]

if anything beating him means he gets to forget all the totally unnecessary bloodshed he's caused

[floral quiver]

It's a shrine to her built by her enemies because unlike so many others they could not conquer her.

It is valuable because it is both a representation of her glory and something the Citadel will have always needed to do because they could not win.

And there were a lot of pilgrins coming, some left and told others, many fell to his blade because people are not meant to see the shrine he guards.

[near jasper]

If you're building a shrine that will have a tomb of a basically deity you will want to have guarda , if suddenly a zombie outbreak starts your guard might start killing people who try to enter

[stray grove]

Actually just saying shit

[sinful nimbus]

No one was at any point ever threatening the shrine

Besides Hornet ofc

[floral quiver]

No. But they could.

Thus the guard.

[stray grove]

mf they built it

[sinful nimbus]

OK that's against the purpose of the shrine its also making up random characterization of Nyleth

[spark valve]

silksong must genuinely cause severe brain atrophy

[sinful nimbus]

Must be the amnesia inducing Shellwood waters

[floral quiver]

The citadel built it grudgingly and from Seth's dialogue people seeing it is sacrilege. Enough that he's duty bound to kill anyone who moves past a specific spot.

[stray grove]

Nyleth isn’t physically inside the shrine it’s a shrine not a tomb

[sinful nimbus]

i love the fight and design but my boy got rewritten so hard 🥹

"The Voice… has chosen me."
An eternal protector, waiting amidst tangled roots at the base of the Citadel. He guards a secret long forgotten and will attack any who stray too close.
Imbued with stamina and strength beyond a normal bug, he strikes up close or from a distance with blinding speed. With unwavering devotion, this ancient guardian will fight until the very end, and beyond.
Many of the Citadel's caste have fallen to this deadly warrior. Those who encounter him should turn back, or else prepare for a vicious battle.

[near jasper]

Where the fuck did the heart come from

[covert night]

why does the citadel make a deal with nyleth they could just destroy shelwood like verdania

[stray grove]

Also why does Nyleth need the citadel to build her a tomb

[spark valve]

because it's to their benefit to do so

[covert night]

why

[floral quiver]

She doesnt.

It's her cost for letting pilgrims pass freely.

[spark valve]

she oversees part of the pilgrimage

[stray grove]

It’s associated with her, Hornet uses the elegy of the deep to access her dream

This is how dreams work

[spark valve]

being allied with her means she protects pilgrims

[stray grove]

Similar principle to accessing Bretta’s mind through the GPZ statue

She’s not literally there

[covert night]

safer road for pilgrims

[spark valve]

Her presence would once have maintained the wood's fragile order, **allowing the safe passage of bugs across its branches. **

[covert night]

i see

[spark valve]

for instance she would've kept shit like sister splinter in line

[near jasper]

I dont think you would be able to enter the memory of a statue and take a heart from it

[stray grove]

A better explanation for Seth would be protecting pilgrims from shit like the splinter tribe but instead he just kills the pilgrims attempting to use the shrine for its intended purpose

But really there’s no way he fits into the current lore

[floral quiver]

What intended purpose? From all we know its purpose is to exist without anyone seeing it.

The Pilgrims payed reverence to Nyleth, but seemingly her shrine wasn't part of that. Her shrine was hidden and guarded and none should see it on pain of death.

[stray grove]

READ

We'd heard the Citadel once made grudging accord with that creature, sent their servants in reverence, even built a shrine up there somewhere.

[near jasper]

Maybe seth just kills the haunted and stopped questioniong people decades into the haunting when the shrine was functionally forgotten

[spark valve]

silksong fans can't read instance 802837

[floral quiver]

And nothing in that says the shrine is intended for pilgrimage or direct worship.

[stray grove]

[near jasper]

?

[floral quiver]

They sent their servants in reverence and also built a shrine. Those two things could connect, but given what we learn when interacting with Seth, they don't.

The reverence and shrine are seemingly two different things that eventually got Nyleth to open her woods to pilgrims

[near jasper]

Plus youd need guards because people in the underworks probably would steal stuff they could to sell

[spark valve]

no they wouldn't

that's not how rosaries work and there's nobody to sell shit to

[gentle aspen]

???

Why would you assume a shrine was built and not used for worship

[spark valve]

it's literally ragebait

[gentle aspen]

like why assume those are two separate things

[spark valve]

Here we honour the seed that sprung the wood.
By her grace may all bugs pass safe to join us and our song
and they go to honour her in reverence
obviously they do it there nobody genuinely would argue otherwise it's profoundly inane

[stray grove]

Little racist i

“Yeah of course she needed a guard those damn filthy underworks workers would just steal everything otherwise”

[near jasper]

Is there anything wrong with this theory? Excluding the thing I said after

[spark valve]

underworkers would also not be able to access the shrine

[stray grove]

There was nothing to steal also they’re literally slaves who wouldn’t be allowed to go there

[spark valve]

yes but it's already been said multiple times and you jsut ignored it so you'd ignore it if it was said again

[near jasper]

?

[spark valve]

you can read back or just literally recall the single interaction where he's doing his duty

[floral quiver]

Because not all shrines in the world are meant for public worship. And given Seth's dialogue it's not for people to worship at.

It's solitude is its sanctity, to have someone enter would break that.

(I believe this because this is how these kinds of shrines work in real life. They're built then never entered because entering them would mar their sanctity, it would be sacrilege)

[near jasper]

Can you give the link to the message

[spark valve]

just read back it won't be far because it's been said several times

[stray grove]

We'd heard the Citadel once made grudging accord with that creature, sent their servants in reverence, even built a shrine up there somewhere.

Here we honour the seed that sprung the wood.
By her grace may all bugs pass safe to join us and our song

Halt, stranger. I am charged forever to guard the sacred shrine beyond.
Any who wish to pass must cross their weapon with my own.

Some things may be hidden, but never forgotten. The shrine remains to remember the wood's first seed, her that once was and always is. I am the last bound to protect it. Sadly, in that service, many have fallen to my blade.

You may rest here in this sacred place, but know, if you choose to step further, you shall see my weapon raised.

Here you go this is literally all of the information about the shrine that exists

[spark valve]

or simply recall the fact that he attacks hornet who he knows isn't haunted lmao

[stray grove]

The guy has one interaction during which he mentions this four times

“Stop or I’ll kill you”
“Hey so I kill anyone who tries to enter”
“I’ve had to kill a lot of people attempting to enter the shrine”
“If you want to rest that’s ok but if you try to get closer to the shrine I’ll kill you”

Gee I wonder

[foggy stratus]

What's going on rn?

[midnight reef]

Not really?

Seth from day one was Nyleths gaurdian

[spark valve]

the thing that makes it weird is nyleth's relationship with the citadel

[floral quiver]

Begrudgingly diplomatic?

[midnight reef]

I feel like there was a time in the Citadels past where they more diplomatic

[near jasper]

There hasnt been anyone going to the shrine for any reason that he is meant to allow for decades, you wouldnt expect to allow anyone after no one should be allowed in years

[midnight reef]

Be it under the Weavers or the first conductors- I'd argue under the Weavers

[stray grove]

Oh my god bruh

[spark valve]

yes you would

[stray grove]

What are we even saying

[spark valve]

it's just yap

[stray grove]

“That he is meant to allow” yes because in his dialogue where he mentions FOUR SEPARATE TIMES that he won’t let anyone enter he makes it clear there’s exceptions to that

[floral quiver]

Less diplomatic and more "We'd love to burn this place to the ground and replace it with even more gold, but we can't so we'll make a deal (but we really hate this it's disgraceful)"

[sinful nimbus]

Yes but Nyleth now has nothing to do with voice there's no indication of Seth being imbued with the stamina and strength beyond a normal bug and describing Nyleth as a secret is odd

[stray grove]

Why are we just lying now

[sinful nimbus]

He's just The Guard™

[midnight reef]

The Weavers would've wanted to secure safe passage to the citadel
In the 2021 map, it'd be mostly placating Nyleth, the Green Princes, and Khann, which considering Nyleth has her shrine, the Coral Steps existing at all with their judges and citadel archectecture, and the Green Princes palace having a Weaver Burial Spire originally SEEMED to be what they were going for

the current lore screws with that, but it does that quite a bit

[near jasper]

Because theres no exception that is alive at the moment

[midnight reef]

Like not having the elevator between Shellwood and the Grand Gate

[spark valve]

and there never was you're just making that up when seth is pretty unambiguous

[midnight reef]

well, top of the Coral Steps right before the Grand Gate*

[stray grove]

There was NEVER any exception I literally posted ALL of the relevant dialogue )which is like four lines lmao) in one place and you still can’t be bothered to read it

[spark valve]

I mean those elevators are still there

just not usable in gameplay

[midnight reef]

Nah

There was a proper one able to carry Hornets cage

Like the one used to get that gets Hornet into Lace 2's arena

That size

[stray grove]

Yes the elevators can’t be interacted with but they’re… still there

[spark valve]

for the purposes of the pilgrimage there still are elevators which is the relevant context

[midnight reef]

Well yeah

Just none that can really bring Hornet with them lol

and the

[near jasper]

Im assuming there was an exception because people actually got there to worship at some point

[midnight reef]

I forgot the name of the group of guys

all the envoys?

idk

If you cant tell, I really like the 2021 map

[stray grove]

You know you can just accept it’s incoherent right you don’t have to make shit up in order to rationalize the explicit dialogue saying otherwise

[spark valve]

it sure sounds better than the one we got

[midnight reef]

Better?

idk

[near jasper]

It doesnt say otherwise

[midnight reef]

It was less thought out, less fleshed out, and unfinished

[spark valve]

it really does

[midnight reef]

I think it had TONS of interesting ideas, hence why I've got a project to remake it

[spark valve]

Halt, stranger. I am charged forever to guard the sacred shrine beyond.

Any who wish to pass must cross their weapon with my own.
gee I wonder if any who wish to pass must cross their weapons with his own

[plain ruin]

You mean a Full Chamber, the group sent to capture Hornet?

[midnight reef]

yeah

[floral quiver]

Because that's what "begrudgingly" means to a polity who has two known deals, one made Because they had to, the other a trick.

They'd probably rather conquer it, or make Nyleth bend the knee or destroy it like Verdania but for whatever reason they couldn't. So they made a deal begrudgingly.

[spark valve]

well probably like 20% of one

[midnight reef]

Yeah

[foggy fractal]

y'know if there was some sort of exception maybe he'd bring it up to Hornet

[midnight reef]

I do kinda wish I could pick Team Cherry's brain about the flow of the 2021 map

[foggy fractal]

Any who wish to pass must cross their weapon with my own... that or you win against me in a round of Tic Tac Toe!

[midnight reef]

of course, the broad strokes can be gotten from the current map

[stray grove]

Also uh

Halt, stranger. I am charged forever to guard the sacred shrine beyond.

I am the last bound to protect it. Sadly, in that service, many have fallen to my blade.

Eternal defender of Shellwood Shrine. His pin and cymbal show many marks of their use.

This is not a recent change lmao idk how in the hell you could claim that

[midnight reef]

Namely that you could do dashless through the Aspids to Shellwood, because that was the first part they made of the Wormways when the Aspids got cut

[near jasper]

Its not recent, the haunting has most likely been around for ages

[stray grove]

Seth has been doing ts literally forever it’s described as a foundational duty as was mentioned earlier but SS FANS CAN’T READ

[midnight reef]

I do question what the voice was, exactly?

Nyleths, I assume

[foggy fractal]

idk you'd have to ask TC

[midnight reef]

But I dont really know if she was alive in the 2021 lore

[plain ruin]

The voice was Ari Gibson

[foggy fractal]

no its William

[spark valve]

hatsune miku

[foggy fractal]

holy aura

[midnight reef]

nah the red one

maybe the yhellow

[plain ruin]

Wait a minute

[spark valve]

I know literally nothing about vocaloids other than the one name

[stray grove]

Sonic the Hedgehog

[floral quiver]

Not literally forever. At least since the deal was made, which was seemingly after the rise of the Citadel.

[near jasper]

Neru with a Voice comes out in silksong?!?!1?1!1!1?1!??

[midnight reef]

lol

[plain ruin]

That snapping sound that Seth makes when he wakes up, is that the same sound as the thorns of the Splinter tribe?

[midnight reef]

probably not

OH YEAH FUN FACT

[floral quiver]

And there were more guardians than him. He's just the last

[midnight reef]

When Summoned Savior roars, guess what roar it is!

[limpid summit]

Are the Skynx noises indicative of anything

[plain ruin]

HK’s

[near jasper]

Isnt that just the generic sound for roots and wood breaking that he uses

[limpid summit]

Or is it just reusing noises

[foggy fractal]

I haven't fought summoned saviour so I can't say

[plain ruin]

Oh wait no

[near jasper]

Idk man

[spark valve]

it's a nosk bro

[plain ruin]

It’s the big one

[midnight reef]

this is the exact file used ;3

[stray grove]

Mimicry

[sinful nimbus]

I believe all the old hearts, Nyleth included, were originally supposed to be song related

Karmelita still is in the final game
Khann's tower used to be "Choral tower" in a very early draft of the game (kinda more tenuous)
Nyleth was "The Voice"

Moss Druid still describes Old Hearts as the "rhythms of the land" and they all have unique pulses

[plain ruin]

It’s the Shade Lord’s roar yeah

[midnight reef]

Its the same as the Shadelords Roar

[limpid summit]

Thank you Tammo and Kirb

I was baiting

[midnight reef]

The "Choral" part of it was cut EXTREMELY early on

Like, instantly after that sketch

[foggy fractal]

right this one it also plays during that post p4 cutscene and when you defeat rad in p5

right

?

[limpid summit]

Green Prince such an afterthought bro

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah true

[plain ruin]

Think so

[limpid summit]

Looks like a bug fables character

[midnight reef]

The Old Hearts in general are a really new part of the game

[sinful nimbus]

Jcera do you know when Green Prince became an old heart or was he always that way

[midnight reef]

circa 2023

[stray grove]

They have the best lore of the old hearts but the bar is in hell

[limpid summit]

True

[midnight reef]

He was always planned to be important

[foggy fractal]

who has good lore

[limpid summit]

Well Khann is the coolest

[foggy fractal]

Shakra?

[sinful nimbus]

I mean kinda tracks they used to be just like bosses out and about

[foggy fractal]

I don't see anyone dissing Shakra

[limpid summit]

Shakra has good lore

[near jasper]

Michael

[limpid summit]

Sherma is a good character with a good story I don’t know if you’d call it good lore

[foggy fractal]

WHO

[spark valve]

nyleth gets a million points for being an isma and then negative half a million for seth but still wins

[foggy fractal]

IS

MICHEAL???

[sinful nimbus]

Isma mogs

[midnight reef]

All the Old Hearts were placed in progression like the First Sinner

originally

[near jasper]

*michael

[foggy fractal]

sorry Silksong only

WHO?

[midnight reef]

The problem is that we dont know how they were used

[stray grove]

I remember my first playthrough waiting for Seth to show up

[limpid summit]

First Sinner was ofc meant to be the final boss

[stray grove]

Agony

[foggy fractal]

I remember my first playthrough waiting for Karmelita to show up bro 💔

[limpid summit]

I remember waiting for THK to show up during Lost Lace

[midnight reef]

I'd love to ask Team Cherry that more than anything, I guess

[sinful nimbus]

I remember on my first playthrough waiting for literally everything I was excited for to show up maybe you should get a real struggle pal

[limpid summit]

I really sat through 5 void waves for TK

[near jasper]

How does binded beings becoming crests work

[sinful nimbus]

And Greymoor my goat that was fine fr

[stray grove]

Well ok that’s true as well but it wasn’t relevant to the discussion

[plain ruin]

Souls and memories are subsumed

[sinful nimbus]

Good area they did my boy justice

[stray grove]

My favorite area is still coral highlands

[midnight reef]

I have an idea™ to graft on the Old Hearts concept to their 2021 placement for an Act 3 in Silkoul

[sinful nimbus]

my honest reaction when I saw that Silksong brought in the scoutfly system 😍

[midnight reef]

Mostly because I refuse to believe that Act 3 wasnt planned in 2021, least the core of it

[stray grove]

I LOVE MONSTER HUNTER WORLD

[limpid summit]

Okay no Bellhart to Widow was genuinely peak

[spark valve]

sentenced to zorah magdaros

[sinful nimbus]

At least we have E33 for that coral itch

[near jasper]

Yeah but why do only some bugs specifically turn into crests

[limpid summit]

Entering Haunted Bellhart after seeing it in the trailers

Going through Shellwood

[midnight reef]

They werent actually put into acts until later XD

[limpid summit]

Then fighting a Weaver I was like HELL YEAH

“Is this one that returned”

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah Bellhart is good

[limpid summit]

Little did I know

[plain ruin]

Might have something to do with power or will

[midnight reef]

Bellhart and Widow my beloved

[spark valve]

surely that plot thread resolves

[sinful nimbus]

Widow is also the best boss

[midnight reef]

Wish they did more with the Bellvein

[stray grove]

Me waiting for the weavers to show up

[plain ruin]

Don’t know if it ever says anything about that

[stray grove]

Plot THREAD hahahaha get it

[midnight reef]

Whivch, I mean, they might down the road

[sinful nimbus]

Does Widow actually say that wtf

[plain ruin]

Not exactly

Unless it’s cut dialogue or something

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't y'all can't read

[spark valve]

atp I just have to assume the cindril weavers came back during the weaver reign in citadel it's like the least dumb option

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong fans

[limpid summit]

You know what

Red Memory should have had PK instead of WL

Imagine an actual conversation with PK

[plain ruin]

She says “spawn of those who dared to flee” tho

[midnight reef]

The Pale King wasnt involved in rasing Hornet

[stray grove]

Maybe the Cindril weavers aren’t actually from Pharloom and their old home is somewhere else

[midnight reef]

least, Hornet doesnt want to admit it

[sinful nimbus]

You just know they would sneak in a corny "No cost too great" drop bro

[near jasper]

Why does binding gms give masks more eyes when gms has less eyes than hornet

[spark valve]

I mean they basically do

[plain ruin]

“she has found her way home… at last”

[foggy fractal]

what do we think of last judge

[sinful nimbus]

Good fight no lore which is sad

[midnight reef]

Fun boss

[near jasper]

Cool

[sinful nimbus]

Wasted aura

[floral quiver]

Best boss

[foggy fractal]

😔 yeah

[stray grove]

Dude that would be insufferable he’d say no cost too great or some bullshit then Hornet would have her gotcha moment and call him a fool then he’d crash out before moving to the next scene

[spark valve]

it has as much lore as the judges in general which is uh
a bit

[plain ruin]

Cool boss but comically small hitbox iirc

[near jasper]

-# skill issue

[limpid summit]

No she could literally have said the same thing as to PK

What did WL think about Hallownest eternal actually

She doesn’t have the Wyrm drive

[sinful nimbus]

PK being abusive to Hornet while a frightened THK watches in the background

[floral quiver]

The Pale King would spend his dialogue being normal. In such a way that his mystique is washed away and all that remains is a bug who tried to hold onto forever.

[spark valve]

wl's literally abusive though

[near jasper]

How does binding gms give masks more eyes

[sinful nimbus]

I mean she has a child soldier

[spark valve]

..For our ways you will think us harsh... You will think us uncaring, unrepentant...
...And so we must seem, for such is the cost of our wish...
"We're hurting you because we love you"

[sinful nimbus]

Not sure what you expected

[stray grove]

“Only a fool would attempt to command the void to do his bidding”
“No cost too great”
“Experience tells me, even gods can fall”
“NO COST TOO GREAT”
“In the end, you really were a fool, father also Hallownest was built on slave labour just throwing that out there”
End scene

[sinful nimbus]

She's always been the evil scheming wife that lives in the shadow of her husband because Team Cherry lowk misogynistic fr fr on god

[foggy fractal]

w team cherry

[spark valve]

certainly a choice to have in there while trying to pivot to being about motherhood

[stray grove]

WL is actually just a bad person

[near jasper]

I wish the wish system was more relevant

[sinful nimbus]

Its called tough love bro

[stray grove]

Why is Vespa here

Who invited her bro

[spark valve]

vespa after brutally beating hornet

[near jasper]

Like its just a quest menu

[floral quiver]

Culturally destroyed indigenous Hornet is my favorite off beat interpretation.

[sinful nimbus]

GMS neglected Phantom and that's evil but Hornet's mother neglecting her is A-OK

[near jasper]

Phantom is weird

[sinful nimbus]

Vespa is a mentor so it wouldn't have as much weight and would kinda be funny characterization

[stray grove]

You don’t get it she had to sleep for the plan so she left her with the weavers she acknowledged were grooming her into something she didn’t want to be

[plain ruin]

Hornet’s mother was sealed in slumber soon after her birth, she didn’t have much of a choice

[sinful nimbus]

I mean White Lady

Herrah is just a colonizer not a bad mom

[spark valve]

wl is both

[stray grove]

It’s no surprise Hornet isn’t the most well adjusted individual considering everyone around her sucked

[sinful nimbus]

so true

[plain ruin]

How is Herrah a colonizer?

[stray grove]

The weavers suck WL sucks Vespa sucks Midwife sucks the only cool guy in her life would be PK and he wasn’t in her life

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong reveals that weavers thought they were divine and meanwhile in Hallownest we have Herrah getting all the natives to worship her 🤔

[plain ruin]

Herrah was the mate of the ruler of Deepnest

[sinful nimbus]

what midwife do

[floral quiver]

She married into the current royal line of Deepnest, honord her departed husband when he fell and was seemingly beloved by the common bugs of her new home.

[sinful nimbus]

she literally the daughter of a pale being (colonizer allegory)

[stray grove]

She’s a spider supremacist and she also repeatedly tries to eat this random guy she just met

[plain ruin]

She’s hungry

[stray grove]

Even when she’s not hungry

[spark valve]

pale savior complex

[plain ruin]

She’s always hungry

[sinful nimbus]

OK? That's normal Willoh does it too

Do you think Willoh is a bad person

What about Lugoli lmfao

[stray grove]

Yeah actually

[stray grove]

SHUT UP

[plain ruin]

Lugoli’s a cannibal by choice, that’s different

[near jasper]

She/her is an anagram of herrah, this is a reference to the cultural importance of the spiders in the Current civilization

[foggy stratus]

Who's that again?

[plain ruin]

Queen’s station giraffe

[near jasper]

Id trust lugoli to cook human meat for me he seems chill

[spark valve]

midwife and willoh definitely eat people without their consent
lugoli may have consent or may not but either way at worst he's the same as them

[foggy stratus]

Oh yeaaaaaah, Grimm Stag looking fucker. Yeah they're evil as shit.

[stray grove]

I also don’t think Lugoli’s decision making capacity is exactly intact

[foggy stratus]

When tf does Luigi eat people??? I thought they just made shit food?

[near jasper]

How the fuck did we arrive at the morality of eating humans with consent

[near jasper]

Silk soar in the arena

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but the tortured Grimm Troupe escapee and Herrah's brainwashed lackey are fine

[spark valve]

there's like jars with people in them

[foggy stratus]

O

[plain ruin]

Willoh eats a random dude, a bug that is clearly a very different species. Midwife also only eats Hallownest bugs, it seems. Lugoli just has jars full of preserved roachkeepers and pilgrims and shit

[stray grove]

Lugoli has an ideology

[floral quiver]

She was the daughter of a pals being who chose to flee her controlling mother, and rather than conquer her new home, she married their ruler, followed their custom, enough so that she was the last thing in her subjects dreams as they fell to the Infection.

And also, she did not flee when things got desperate. She stayed and became a martyr for her adopted homeland.

[near jasper]

He has roachkeepers?

[plain ruin]

And Lugoli is a roachkeeper bug

[stray grove]

They eat people it doesn’t matter what their “species” is

Those are people

[plain ruin]

Iirc there are some in there

[sinful nimbus]

MGRR fans

[near jasper]

I dont remember seeing them

[spark valve]

because lumping in the typical notion of cannibalism with something like endocannibalism which is in line with lugoli's ideologies sucks

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/tarantula-spider-boogie-dance-gif-1496542221627060498

[sinful nimbus]

Little Weavers were slaves btw

Not a single good weaver aside from Atla

[plain ruin]

Willoh’s a giraffe and Midwife is a spider-thing storyteller who tells stories in exchange for an arm or a leg

[foggy stratus]

Tf???

[plain ruin]

Lugoli’s just a chef who is of the Citadel and the Moor societies

[sinful nimbus]

What else would they be

[foggy stratus]

Local spiders who were experimented on by the Weavers.

[plain ruin]

Even Atla is questionable, we don’t know exactly how she was prior to being locked up

[foggy stratus]

Obviously.

[sinful nimbus]

Still messed up lowk

Not beating the colonizer allegations

[near jasper]

My girl murglin did nothing wrong

[floral quiver]

Where is this stated?

[sinful nimbus]

Gun owner

[plain ruin]

Murglin is the John Moses Browning of Pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

And manufacturer actually

[foggy stratus]

Abolsom didnt do nothing but play in the crude oil kiddy pool.

[plain ruin]

Absolom is the Marie Curie

[foggy stratus]

[spark valve]

every pharloom weaver other than cindril ones was probably involved in the citadel and therefore is immediately evil

[sinful nimbus]

What else would they be

[foggy stratus]

What I said.

[sinful nimbus]

Slaves or tortured experiments with silk (Whiteward)

[spark valve]

except for maybe fs who pushed back against the bogus theocracy weavers tried to impose

[near jasper]

My girl murglin did nothing wrong she wanted to just let someone die instead of trapping them eternally and forcing slaves to keep them locked up

[sinful nimbus]

Also Weavers have an innate desire for domination in their blood btw

[plain ruin]

Cindril group could’ve been formed as the other group was preparing to transfer rulership to the Conductors/become entombed in those spires

[sinful nimbus]

Not in a racist way or anything that's just what Hornet says to Caretaker

[spark valve]

no it couldn't have

[foggy stratus]

Uh huh sure.

[robust wagon]

😭

[plain ruin]

What makes this impossible?

[foggy stratus]

Isn't that about like Pale Beings? The whole "submit or die" shit?

[spark valve]

what weavenests are the rune harp in cindril the rune harp from ballador

[plain ruin]

Pardon?

[sinful nimbus]

Rune harp says it was an attempt to flee GMS yeah

[near jasper]

Theres no need to run if youve kept things under control

[sinful nimbus]

PK didn't do that tf

[plain ruin]

Ballador’s isn’t from any know Weavenest

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers also got them GMS genes though

[floral quiver]

Unknown.

[sinful nimbus]

Even FS is evil in your fanfiction

[spark valve]

yes because it was made during the citadel era where weavenests were abandoned because they were unnecessary

[foggy stratus]

Yeah but I just remember something along those lines. Frankly I don't believe it either tbh.

[plain ruin]

And Ballador’s harp could’ve been created right before the Weavers became entombed, which would have been after the Cindril group had left

[spark valve]

correct but this is about canon

[sinful nimbus]

I think you're thinking of Green Prince dialogue where Hornet says those are the only two possible outcomes of their rule

[foggy stratus]

Maybe I dunno.

[sinful nimbus]

But like its not an ultimatum they give or anything its just the downstream effects of their power

Weavers probably do give that ultimatum though because every one is evil apparently

[plain ruin]

What about Karn and Askar then?

[foggy fractal]

May I know more about this fanfiction 🤔

[sinful nimbus]

who tf is Askar

We making up new weavers

[plain ruin]

Karn seems to know of the plan to strengthen Hornet

[near jasper]

Weavenest from mt fay

[spark valve]

wouldn't have been used during the citadel era

[plain ruin]

Also Absolom

[near jasper]

On the file names

[spark valve]

not a weavenest

[sinful nimbus]

Y'all what about Weavenest Camlee

[near jasper]

What else do you want me to call it

[plain ruin]

Absolom and Karn have burial spires with Weavers who speak of becoming bound by Hornet

[spark valve]

the mt fay weaver structure doesn't have the door and isn't situated far outside gms's gaze because it was built during the citadel era when weavers believed gms was bound for good, something they continued to believe forever until their deaths

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't seem like their original purpose though

Absolom was studying void Karn was uh uhm uhh

[near jasper]

My girl murglin did nothing wrong

[foggy fractal]

studying sands

[spark valve]

because they see maintenance of the citadel as a new sort of bondage and want to be freed from that so they're hoping a weaver spawn who left with cindril before the citadel was even a thing will come home

even though cindril was pretty explicitly not planning to do that

[plain ruin]

What I mean is that Karn and Absolom are proof that the Weavenests weren’t just abanonded in the Citadel age, as you claimed earlier

If those weren’t abandoned, maybe Cindril wasn’t either

[spark valve]

some of them went back there when they died to wait but they were abandoned during the citadel age

[sinful nimbus]

I mean even if there were weavenests in use during the citadel Cindril wouldn't be among them

[near jasper]

Murglin is the only good weaver

[near jasper]

Wait

I think hornet fucked up repairing the silkshot

Why would the weapon for "when our silk has wained" use silk

Is she stupid

[foggy fractal]

yes

[floral quiver]

The Silkshot allows a Weaver to fire a powerful piercing runic array much like the Silkspear with only a small portion of the cost of doing the more traditional art.

(The Original Silkshot only uses a single part of silk, compared to the full spool of the Silkspear art)

[near jasper]

Idk it feels kinda weird

"strenght beyond our silk" says the memory in murglin weavenest

[floral quiver]

Yes. It takes a tiny amount of silk and turns it into a powerful runic railslug. Much stronger than a Weaver's runecraft alone.

[near jasper]

Maybe hornet missed a box with 400 pieces of ammo when she grabbed the ruined tool

[floral quiver]

The Silkshot actually does use physical ammunition alongside its silk. The cartridges it uses direct the silk, much like Hornet's needle does during Silkspear.

When the Silkshot is fired, the gun ejects the spent cartridge and another is loaded.

She didn't ignore ammo because she can craft her own cartridges.

[knotty prism]

do you guys think we will get an octopus or another type of mollusk in sea of sorrow? we already have barnacles and mollusks arent mammals or reptiles, i would say they are pretty similar to bugs in a weird way

[robust wagon]

Who knows

[floral quiver]

I wouldnt mind a cool mollusk fight

[near jasper]

If yes I think itll be adapted to be more bug like

But maybe, it would be cool

[knotty prism]

a nautilus would be sick

plus there are sea shells in the blue lake

[near jasper]

Do you think putrified ducts will get more lore in sos

And bilewater

[foggy fractal]

maybe a nautilus but not an octopus

[sinful nimbus]

I can think of a better sea creature to add

[foggy fractal]

which is?!?!

[sinful nimbus]

🦞

[robust wagon]

Omg yes the lobster lancer that was cut from hk

[near jasper]

the what

[foggy fractal]

original version of godtamer

[robust wagon]

The lobster lancer

[near jasper]

Why is the only person with real teleporting in silksong in a cage

Kinda ironic

[foggy fractal]

idk if she chould get out with all those runes

plus she's dead

[near jasper]

Skill issue

[void wolf]

hi

[near jasper]

Hi

[magic kernel]

Made a family tree from GMS and somehow got to grimmchild

[near jasper]

Show it

[magic kernel]

How do I post

[near jasper]

Oh you dont have image perms

[magic kernel]

Nope

[near jasper]

A

[magic kernel]

Had to Google weavers tbh

[near jasper]

You can dm it to me and ill post it for you

[foggy fractal]

you have to have enough messages to post images its one of the new bot/scam counters

[magic kernel]

Makes sense

[knotty prism]

i think the yagos are already meant to be lobster

lobsters

[fierce narwhal]

hi everypony

what we loring about this fine sunday

[wet walrus]

Did Hornet canonically inherit PK's foresight? (Not talking about respawns)

...Ignore them, daughter... their whispers
...Greater, grander... Weaver, guardian, queen... Those are their desires... not your own. Certainly not mine...
...Only if you resist them, you might see it, another hope... beyond...
Of all weavers only the half wyrm hornet could see the hope beyond. Hornet might have been bred not just for higher being strength but also some of pale king's powers. The most crucial one is his foresight which like other wyrms allowed him to create a kingdom that could last near eternity and only ever took an L to ti the inevitable doom (force of nature).
The Mushroom clan recognised him as a ruler as his foresight could shield them. Herrah might have also needed that foresight to be inherited so Hornet can foresee a way to reclaim pharloom.

[fierce narwhal]

oooo i like this idea, maybe she doesn't have foresight as the wyrms have, but maybe its like some sort of instinct, the feeling that she will survive and will succeed in saving pharloom in act 3

half determination half foresight if that makes sense

[wet walrus]

True, in one dialogue I forgot which one she is told that it is in her nature to act like a higher being

[stray grove]

Hornet may have foresight, but if she does, it serves no narrative purpose. First of all it’s not acknowledged even once (including by NPCs like MM) which would be very strange if it was actively (or even passively) influencing the decisions she was making. I could just stop here because the theory is baseless and can therefore be dismissed without evidence but I’ll nevertheless try to respond to the rest of this

It seems to me you’re kind of misunderstanding both why Herrah needed PK to give her a child and also why PK had those powers in the first place. For the former it’s because it is nearly impossible for Weavers to reproduce normally, described as a “curse”, and Hornet describes herself as “spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits” (Eva dialogue). For the latter, the entire point of PK’s foresight is that it was ultimately pointless, having foresight be the entire reason for SS would completely undermine this precedent and by extension the entirety of the last game’s narrative

The hope beyond quote doesn’t mean what you think either, Herrah is talking about Hornet finding her own way in the world rather than becoming what the Weavers want her to be which ties to the main themes of the game. Also nothing indicates the Hallownest Weavers ever had any plans of returning had the Vessel Project succeeded so this is kind of incoherent, they also wouldn’t have known what the status quo in Pharloom was like since they left while GMS was still in power. But even then, the Weavers who remained waited for the spawn of one of the Weavers who escaped to return and free them, not necessarily the child of a Wyrm so claiming foresight had anything to do with it is just a massive stretch

[twin dragon]

Foresight itself is vague and really doesnt add much

[spice cedar]

Phantom is a really odd character

Narratively I mean

Like they are quite literally Lace's singular (remaining) sibling and it's shown pretty clearly that the two of them actually spend time together and share together in the tragedy of their very crappy existence as Grand Mother Silk's children

And...

None of that really has a pay-off?

Phantom is slain in what is effectively yet another instance of "Suicide by Hornet" and we never really see much of a reaction from either GMS (which would make sense given that she had already abandoned them in the exhaust organ to literally pump out the garbage out of the citadel... Like, very on the nose ngl, ehehe) or Lace

And GOSH I WISH we had gotten a reaction or anything of the sort from her, like Phantom seemingly was the ONLY person in Lace's entire life that she seemed to be able to actually talk to and be herself

And now

They are gone..

Killed by Hornet no less

And yeah of course

There is some thematic precedent, that just like Phantom, Lace was very blatantly suicidal as shown in Act III, with her straight up plummeting herself into the abyss itself JUST to spite her mother in her act of rather murderous rebellion

The both of GMS' silk children literally had no hope in their very bleak and objectified existence as essentially Grand Mother Silk's cute little toys of very conditional affection

Anywho...

It's just sad to think about

And the fact that we never really see Lace learn that she is now truly alone in the world with Phantom's passing makes it all the harder :<

Also kinda fucked up that Phantom literally explodes into a bunch of threads upon their death, ngl

That's literally gore of my comfort character, chat

[stray grove]

I mean that’s kind of the point no

[spice cedar]

Oh yeah absolutely

My "issue" isn't that Phantom does that, as far as they knew Hornet had no hope of ever defeating GMS and or even if they did, they were still doomed to rot away slowly and probably very very painfully

It's that... Perhaps the singular character in the entire story that has seemingly spent time and known Lace is a very deep personal and familial manner is gone and there is never an aftermath or reaction from Lace

[stray grove]

tbf Lace may not even know she’s dead and Phantom is technically an optional boss

I think the lack of a pay off is part of the point

[spice cedar]

Most likely on the former, yeah.
Which means that it is in the ever fantastically realm of things that we can only imagine about as they happen after credits roll

[stray grove]

Phantom was discarded like trash and Lace knew she was probably on her way out

The one interaction they have is them lamenting that they were created in such a way

“She spun us to fade”

[spice cedar]

Yeaah...
And as far as we know, Lace has literally NOBODY else for who knows how long she has existed, between whatever toxic relationship she had with her yet cocooned mother, to the fact that despite fashioning herself as the "protector" of Pharloom, she quite literally had no affection or relationship with any of its inhabitants in the slightest

It's just really really depressing to think that the only important person in her life is gone like that and... That she perhaps doesn't even know it yet?

[wet walrus]

So did weavers, lace and phantom inherit GMS beastly nature?

[spice cedar]

Wydm by "beastly nature"?

[stray grove]

?

[spice cedar]

As in being a major asshole and terrible parent? Because I think that's learned behaviour rather than something "genetic"

[stray grove]

Pale beings do have evil genes but I wouldn’t describe that as a beastly nature

It manifests more as a desire for power/ to dominate “lesser” bugs, at least in Hornet’s case

If the question is whether the Weavers inherited this tendency from GMS the answer is probably yes

Since the main theme of the game is everyone was kind of doing the same thing, oppressed becoming the oppressors etc

[wet walrus]

Caretaker: It's feelin' almost time, eh, bellringer? You and her who waits up there. That fated meeting won't hold forever... Ready to make your play, to oust one ruler and claim her place?
Hornet: I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome... Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up top.
Hornet: And yet, another part resists... A part, over time, I find myself siding with more...
Hornet: That part wishes not to claim a monarch's mantle, rather it would see my freedom regained, and this kingdom's bugs unshackled from their pale chains.

[spice cedar]

They did very much have all those various effigies of their depicting them as a panteon of goddesses and such

[stray grove]

Yeah I figured, answer is above, I just hadn’t come across the term “beastly nature”

[wet walrus]

I believe they do have instincts like some other higher beings.
Wyrms do have instincts of pulling bugs to their thrall
WL probably have instinct of uhhh breeding?

[stray grove]

It’s described as a desire to dominate, it can manifest slightly differently depending on the HB in question ig

WL’s desire to “spread seeds upon the land” isn’t dissimilar

[wet walrus]

Regardless not all hbs are benevolent by nature
NMH sustains itself by putting its subjects to a never ending ritual cycle
Radiance most likely hardly any better before PK even came

[spice cedar]

She IS a literal root, spreading herself across the land seems like an obvious instinct to her

[stray grove]

But evidently it’s also not necessary to act upon those desires
Another theme is that this general desire for power/control is something felt by every bug, even the lowest slaves in the Underworks

Everyone tries to exert whatever power they have over those less powerful than them

HBs just happen to have this magnified since they “exist above all others”, and their offspring inherit that quality

[wet walrus]

True, this was the case even during pre infection hallownest

[stray grove]

So whether the Weavers inherited GMS’ nature or not is kind of besides the point, imo. Hornet did, but Hornet was the direct offspring of a HB. Ultimately regardless of the reasons they were in a position where they could control others and that’s what they did

But the existence of a genetic component (in Hornet’s case) is also undeniable, it’s just kind of weird and arguably pointless writing if you ask me

[wet walrus]

Maybe she inherited that indirectly by binding her pseudo-children

[stray grove]

No I think it’s a PK thing

[spice cedar]

To be fair, you don't really need any "conquest genes" for the desire to exist

[stray grove]

She had that hunger ever since she set foot in the kingdom

She mentions something to that effect

[spice cedar]

All of these higher beings quite simply can subjugate entire regions and form kingdoms whether through awe or force

And that's simply something they have to live for....forever

[wet walrus]

Weavers kind of weren't ascended by GMS. She basically shape pharlids into a shape of daughters and as a result giving them her own qualities.

[stray grove]

They were ascended

GMS imbued them with her own silk, which is her own lifeforce

[wet walrus]

Yeah but it was more like shaping them into daughter close to her image

[spice cedar]

Yeah, they are after all the only beings other than GMS that can produce silk, they are absolutely far beyond common bugs

[stray grove]

And whatever she did to them altered them on a genetic level

Since their powers can be inherited

[stray grove]

Yes she wanted daughters but that’s not different from saying she ascended them

She granted them sapience and magic powers by imbuing them with a measure of her own divine life force

[spice cedar]

Anywho, it's like for example... If you had the power of mind control.
Like you don't need an evil "conquer the world" gene to make you have the constant desire to literally brainwash people into whatever you want

[wet walrus]

I believe weavers inherit this nature of gms because gms intentionally wanted them to be like her daughters

[twin dragon]

No, weavers are like that because pharlids are described to be territorial

and yk, they ended up rebelling

[spice cedar]

It's just that at any time you can use said very immoral power and that it would make your life a whoole lot easier and solve many of your problems perhaps... And also make you superior to other people simply because you wield such overwhelming power over them.

[stray grove]

Yes that’s also part of it
Every bug seems to experience this base instinct at some level, so it’s not a surprise that it would be amplified in the most powerful (and therefore the most capable of subjugating others)

[spice cedar]

The White Lady for example COULD expand and grow into all directions without end... Bur she doesn't want to... But she could do it at any moment

[wet walrus]

Yeah bs, mantises in hk didn't go apeshit after infection like weavers did (except mantis traitors who became violently territorial)

[stray grove]

It doesn’t have to be one thing but GMS is also like that and the game explicitly mentions inheriting her nature

You can fight your nature

That’s kind of a main theme of the game

[twin dragon]

They didnt, they kept being territorial n greedy even after rebelling doe

[stray grove]

Well yeah no shit that’s what we’re talking about

They kept doing the same shit GMS was doing

[twin dragon]

what does that have to do with weavers

[spice cedar]

Even normal human beings have it, power corrupts in a very mundane and simple way. You don't say "no" once when it comes to abusing your power, rather you have to CONSTANTLY refuse to give into corruption and self-interest given that you simply have all of this power and nobody other than yourself is there to stop you if you ever wanted to abuse it

[stray grove]

I don’t know if I’d even describe it as territorial

[spice cedar]

It's fascinating honestly

[wet walrus]

Also Monomon describes pre-Hallownest bugs as savages driven by instincts. They return to this state only after infection. And that sapience was given by PK.

[stray grove]

The whole power corrupts and fighting your nature thing is literally the main theme of the game yea

[twin dragon]

It might've affected them in some way but they were obviously not perfectly crafted from gms like lace supposedly is, they kept their base behaviour in some way, they still liked cave-like environment

[twin dragon]

They like to keep shit

[stray grove]

I don’t know what it is you’re arguing

I’m telling you it doesn’t have to be any one thing, ultimately all that matters is the Weavers where in a position where they were the most powerful and they exploited that

[twin dragon]

that it doesn't come only from gms ascending them

[twin dragon]

yes

[stray grove]

A lot of people would have done the same irrespective of their heritage or base instincts or whatever it’s a generic trope
But the fact remains that Silksong does specifically mention that there’s a genetic component to it

[spice cedar]

Grand Mother Silk is not a perfect being of perfect morality that goes beyond human. She quite literally is fueled and has the exact same drives as normal mundane creatures, she wishes for daughters to worship her for her to show her conditional love towards to

[stray grove]

Is that pointless and kind of weird writing? Yeah but it’s still there

[granite yew]

So mid

[spice cedar]

The Weavers werent "imperfectly crafted", they're extremely intelligent and fully sapient beings, but they, JUST LIKE GMS are still subject to the insticts and desires of all living beings

[granite yew]

Spooder

[stray grove]

GMS is an example of a HB who succumbed to those desires

[twin dragon]

they are imperfectly crafted though

[spice cedar]

What does that mean?

[twin dragon]

They're flawed, like gms

[stray grove]

Well

[spice cedar]

Like what would a "perfect" version of them be?

[stray grove]

GMS says Lace is a child spun pure

[twin dragon]

Something like lace i guess?

they werent crafted to her liking, not entirely

[spice cedar]

I mean that would make them perfectly crafted if they were made in GMS' image? Whether intentional or not

[twin dragon]

To wtv gms sees fit

[stray grove]

But what she means by that is since Lace was spun from her own thread and designed to her specifications (to the point of being perpetually a child since that fit with her twisted view of motherhood) she wouldn’t rebel like the Weavers did

[twin dragon]

we dont know ball about phantom so we cant say

[stray grove]

That’s what child spun pure means

[spice cedar]

Wtv?

[twin dragon]

whatever

[stray grove]

And Lace evidently still had the desire to rebel

GMS was just wrong about that

[spice cedar]

Ah

[twin dragon]

Kinda yeah, but she yearned for her attention at the same time

[stray grove]

So did the Weavers

[twin dragon]

some of them

[stray grove]

No all of them did that

For a long time they were subservient to her, singing to her n shit

[twin dragon]

They ended up hating her and rebelling

[stray grove]

So did Lace

[twin dragon]

I dont think they liked that

[stray grove]

Neither did Lace

[spice cedar]

Yeah, Lace is "perfect" in that she is a perfect "doll" for GMS to play mom with and be praised by

[twin dragon]

while lace actively was seeking it out

[stray grove]

They both actively sought it out and ended up hating her and rebelling

[spiral birch]

What happened to Pure Vessel if he's supposed to be freed from the infection in the true ending of Hollow Knight?

[stray grove]

The point of Lace is that GMS thought it was the Weavers’ blood that caused them to rebel

[twin dragon]

did the weavers seek it out though?

[stray grove]

In reality it was her treatment of them

[stray grove]

And so even her pure perfect doll still rebels

Because the Weavers were never the problem it was HER

[spice cedar]

Which is done by making Lace literally required constant maintenance by GMS (Which in turn makes her incapable of living independent of her), whiich would infact be a glaring major flaw... If it weren't completely intentional

It's why i find the term "imperfectly crafted" rather silly, since the Weavers ARE incredible beings, it's just that they weren't what GMS wanted since they eventually grew up and she didn't wish to give them autonomy

Leading to the conflict that starts the story

[stray grove]

GMS was always the problem

But she can’t admit that so she assumes there was something fundamentally wrong with the Weavers

Lace is created in her twisted image of a perfect child, incapable of rebellion

But Lace still rebels, because ultimately the issue was GMS

[twin dragon]

The weavers themselves were greedy as hell though

[stray grove]

Not inherently

It’s the trope of the oppressed becoming the oppressors

[twin dragon]

I know, but theres also a lack on info on how gms treated them at all

[spice cedar]

There's also Phantom who she literally discards and abandons seemingly because they too "grew up" and gained and identified of their own separate of GMS

[stray grove]

Well from what we’re told and shown GMS treated them like absolute garbage

They were fucking terrified of her

[twin dragon]

I guess, but those are still semi vague

[stray grove]

She was literally watching them 24/7

[twin dragon]

it would be nice to see old pharloom...

[stray grove]

They had to hide underground away from her silken sight to have any sense of autonomy

The writing is literally on the wall

[spice cedar]

Absolutely nobody is arguing that they were morally good, they literally created the entire trap that is the citadel to have someone ELSE keep GMS asleep while they went off to do their own thing

[twin dragon]

Aside from that, we dont know how gms ruled and how the old kingdoms fell, aside from a few ones

[stray grove]

The Weavers weren’t good but that wasn’t because of an innate genetic flaw or imperfect design or whatever

They were treated like shit so once they were the ones in power they treated others like shit

[spice cedar]

Yeah kinda robs them of agency and depth if you treat them as essentially faulty automata rather than actually living people

[twin dragon]

Yeah they inherited that from her

Not genetically

[stray grove]

Ironically what GMS was doing

[twin dragon]

that's what she wanted them for

Chat did lace begin hating gms when she found out about phantom?

i can't really know how else she got to know her own origins

[spice cedar]

Honestly we don't know what their relationship even is... Like how did Lace interact with GMS if she was STILL in that cocoon?

[stray grove]

Lace hated herself and eventually hated GMS for making her that way

[twin dragon]

yeah

[spice cedar]

Heck, how did she even create her to begin with?

[twin dragon]

Though how did she discover that

if not for phantom

i doubt gms had any agency at all when creating both

[twin dragon]

difk

idfk

[spice cedar]

Yeah absolutely

[twin dragon]

maybe similar to how she does the haunting

really expressing her desires unconsciously

[stray grove]

Doesn’t really matter how, that’s not the only reason for her self loathing

[stray grove]

Well

We don’t know when they were created

[twin dragon]

Im asking for that specific thing

[twin dragon]

I would assume post citadel

[stray grove]

Not necessarily

Could’ve been pre citadel, GMS was kinda done with the Weavers

[twin dragon]

was she?

I mean where would phantom n lace be

at that point

[stray grove]

They rebelled before she could replace them but yeah GMS could’ve reasonably made Phantom and Lace after the Cindril Weavers left or something

And that they were around wouldn’t necessarily require them to be active even

[spice cedar]

That sounds kinda silly?
Like she accidentally created an entire gaggle of silk-born creatures that we see in the mist and eventually perfected it in the creation of both Phantom and Lace?

[stray grove]

We just don’t know

[twin dragon]

Not accidentally

[stray grove]

Phantom made those actually

The wraiths

[twin dragon]

Somehow yeah

[spice cedar]

Wdym?

[twin dragon]

I'd think the weavers would do something with them

unless they were hidden somewhere

[stray grove]

Not a bug but a projection of another's will cast in smog and Silk.

[spice cedar]

Phantom is incapable of mending their own form, I severely doubt they were the one to create the silk-born wraiths

[twin dragon]

I always interpreted as one of the reasons why phantom is so frayed

[spice cedar]

Unlike the weavers, Phantom and Lace don't actually have the ability to produce silk

[twin dragon]

kinda like a metaphore that her job was eating her away

Yeah they're part of herself

[spice cedar]

I sincerely doubt that Phantom held anywhere close to enough of loyalty into the citadel to actually sacrifice their own health for their work

They are literally downright suicidal when Hornet finds them

[twin dragon]

I mean, was it really intentional?

the citadel likely enslaved her aswell

[spice cedar]

What

[twin dragon]

The wraiths dont have to be something intentional

[spice cedar]

Yes they have to??

[twin dragon]

whys that

[spice cedar]

You don't accidentally create an army of ethereal spirits from your own body

How do you do that "unintentionally"?

[twin dragon]

What i mentioned previously, her job was literally eating her away

Also why would gms create clones of an already frayed phantom

that are in the mist

for some ungodly reason

[spice cedar]

No, that's the poetic assumption BASED on the idea that Phantom created them.
Phantom's job was literally to manage the Citadel's waste and garbage

[twin dragon]

Why would she willingly create spirits otherwise

its also interesting to look at their needolin dialogues

[spice cedar]

Because they are not clones of Phantom? And they are certainly nowhere near the same level of being frayed or dirty like Phantom, they are incomplete and yet fully ethereal and shining beings of thread that instinctually seek out thread

[spice cedar]

Because they didn't create them?
Like we literally fight phantom, they have no actual ability that imply that they could be able to do that

Their skills are fully needle-based

No magical silk magic

[stray grove]

They’re just projections, it doesn’t make a huge amount of sense for GMS to make them and they also resemble her

[twin dragon]

described to be projections of will

[twin dragon]

They literally want anyone stepping into the mist gone

they act on phantom's want

[spice cedar]

Literally every single enemy in Silksong is a puppet controlled by a projection of GMS' will

[stray grove]

Sure but this is different

[twin dragon]

Not the same?

[spice cedar]

That's her thing

[stray grove]

These are literally projections

[spice cedar]

And yet we see no such projections in Phantom's fight

They showcase no magical aptitude or capacity of weilding their silk

Same with Lace

Only GMS and the Weavers could do that

[stray grove]

Because they’re cast in smog and silk which is outside
And I’m not really sure that matters

[spice cedar]

And what does that mean exactly?

[stray grove]

You are not wanted here!
Nothing for you... here...
Begone, begone!
Leave this place...
Those who wander... will die...
You will be lost...
This is the Wraiths’ Needolin dialogue btw

Does this sound like GMS

That’s like the opposite of what GMS would want

[spice cedar]

I am not saying that the Wraiths are literally GMS, I am saying they are direct creations of GMS like Phantom and Lace

Like prototype versions of them

[stray grove]

Yeah but they’re described as projections

Not a bug but a projection of another's will cast in smog and Silk.

[twin dragon]

Im arguing in favour of these projections being part of herself, and part of the reason why shes so frayed

[stray grove]

It’s a projection of another’s will

Lace Phantom and GMS have their own wills

More likely Phantom is just projecting her will in the smog and silk which is outside the Organ
The Wraiths also resemble her

[spice cedar]

Okie screw it, the mist runs on some weirder magic and I am just gonna say that the reason that they don't appear in Phantom's fight is because they... Idk they need to play their organ or concentrate or whatever

[stray grove]

I mean it wouldn’t make sense for them to manifest inside there’s no smog and silk

Also adds are annoying

[spice cedar]

Pollution Ghosts

[stray grove]

Especially these adds

Phantom wanted to go out in a blaze of glory

Jumping Hornet with 50 adds doesn’t really make sense

[spice cedar]

I meant that as in Phantom using magic similar to the one that would've lead to things like the wraiths

As I've said, their fight has them exclusively use their needle

[stray grove]

I mean they’re just projections of her will idk how else that could manifest

[spice cedar]

Even the skill we get from them is needlebased

[spice cedar]

I am just gonna chalk it up to magical organ

The power of the Silk Song™ or something

[stray grove]

I’m just sayin there are plenty of other reasons for her to exclusively use her needle

[twin dragon]

Its also obvious that she wanted to go out in a blaze of glory

[stray grove]

She’s more skilled in that, she’s concentrating, she wanted an honorable duel, she wanted to die, it’s the most suited to fighting Hornet, she couldn’t summon them inside, TC thought it would make for a shitty boss

[twin dragon]

she poses and sings and does shit

she doesnt just want to die

[stray grove]

Already mentioned this but yeah

[spice cedar]

And I am saying that Phantom having silk manipulation or creation skills completely contradicts the very concept of their character as a being of silk that's slowly falling apart due to a lack of maintenance

[stray grove]

.

The silk is already there it’s just a projection of her will

[twin dragon]

It couldn't have been voluntary aswell

[stray grove]

There’s plenty of smog and silk surrounding the organ

Silk is in the air

[spice cedar]

I love them so muuuuch

[twin dragon]

Or yeah this could be

[whole holly]

i don't think that's silk manipulation but phenomenon that phantom has indirect influence over

[twin dragon]

But yk, im vouching more for the fact that parts of her went through the organ

[whole holly]

that's interesting

[spice cedar]

Yeah honestly feels the most correct

[twin dragon]

It also would be poetic but im not sure how that would work

[stray grove]

That’s what I’ve been sayin

It’s just a projection of her will

[whole holly]

i worded it differently i guess

[twin dragon]

I dont think she has any influence, beyond being a projection

[spice cedar]

Extremely terrifying to think that even the tiny fibers of silk that they lose from everyday wear and tear are still connected to them... Like, being consciously aware of where your dead skin are scattered around in the air

[twin dragon]

I mean, is that really the case?

the wraiths seem automated, not directed

[spice cedar]

Ngl, that's somehow even worse

[stray grove]

She probably has a vague awareness of them

[spice cedar]

Since that means that they do not depend on Phantom to be around

[twin dragon]

Somewhat of a bastardized imprint of your mind

or your want

[stray grove]

They probably do disappear once she dies

[spice cedar]

AKA even if Phantom dies... The threads still remain there

[stray grove]

The wraiths I mean

[twin dragon]

since they also want to whoever comes near to go away

[twin dragon]

The entire mist does

[stray grove]

I think that’s more of a gameplay thing

[twin dragon]

I guess

But since phantom stopped pumping smoke into what is likely the main area of pollution it went away

why didnt hornet get lung cancer

[spice cedar]

Something something higher being deluxe air purifier organs

[spice cedar]

Yeah pretty much my guess as well

[twin dragon]

They do

[twin dragon]

Hornet doesnt need to breathe

she balls holding her breath or smt

[dapper willow]

Guys
Who do you think made the pillars

The blasted step pillars
They are all across pharloom but most prominent in the steps

[twin dragon]

Likely the citadel's foundation

It has to stand on smt yk

[dapper willow]

I think its pre citadel

Because you find them in places they have no business being

They might even be pre kingom things

before karak and verdania

[twin dragon]

theyre similar and they all point up

what purpose would they serve otherwise

[twin dragon]

like?

[dapper willow]

Sands of karak
Verdania
Nyleth's memory
there is some even in far fields I believe

they also don't really look like the citadel architecture

[twin dragon]

verdania?

where

[twin dragon]

Old citadel maybe

Sands of karak's pillars are likely just built in the bsteps

and are seen through them

nyleth did exist when the citadel made its deal with her

[dapper willow]

its possible that the weavers or the citadel made them but I don't think thats the case

wait

no way I don't have image perms

i just found an image where the pillars are visible in verdania

My point is that the citadel was enemies with the ancient kingdoms from day 1 so I don't think its possible they built the pillars

The game's lore might be deeper than I thought

Or team cherry is messing with me

[knotty prism]

The details are very foggy but the one thing we know for sure is that the weavers were the ones who built the citadel

[dapper willow]

I know
Im talking about the mistery pillars, not the citadel

[knotty prism]

what pillars

could you dm me a photo?

[dapper willow]

yeah

[whole holly]

Found this on twitter

[dapper willow]

this doesn't look very lore rich

silkpost

[whole holly]

This is lore, wdym

Hollow Knight: Shadesong was great honestly, Grand Master Steel is better than Grand Mother Silk, imo

[robust wagon]

🫩

[balmy vortex]

personally i think they shouldve added more abilities for hollow knight

though i love the brute force playstyle the hollow knight offers compared to hornet which is more of a fast damage dealer

[twin dragon]

True ending boss steel overseer zhrui solos

[twin dragon]

Not always really

they pacted w nyleth and verdania

[dapper willow]

thats true

but still

[twin dragon]

What else could identical, up-leading pillars be for

[dapper willow]

who knows

all pillars are up leading tho

[twin dragon]

Well i'd say thats the most plausible hypothesis

[twin dragon]

I mean they dont appear in any of the citadels areas

or upper areas

[dapper willow]

yeah

wait
Wouldn't they appear in the citadel somewhere if it was them who made it, be it the weavers or the conductors?

[twin dragon]

They're the foundational pillars

to the citadel

why would they be inside of it

[twin dragon]

Likely weavers

because of their stony design

[dapper willow]

they are not inside the citadel tho
And they can be found far from its foundations as well

[twin dragon]

the citadel is massive

and it occupies a very large part of the kingdomç

[twin dragon]

They're foundational pillars

the foundation of a building

thats what those pillars are presumably

[dapper willow]

why are they in karak tho
And in mount fay

[twin dragon]

to support the slab n the citadel

i answered that already

[ionic basalt]

Massive?

[twin dragon]

💔

[dapper willow]

I sure do love pouring concret ein my neighbours yard to build the foundation of my house

[twin dragon]

I sure do not think the citadel is invasive in any way!

[dapper willow]

I rest my case

[dapper willow]

https://youtu.be/o5BDWeyiRsg?si=YRImRImDfHoot1x3
Intetesting theory

[finite wind]

Hey guys

Are the first lines of dialogue of the mask maker the same ones are the mask maker from HK?

Because when I first met him I got my pants wet thinking they were

But I never checked

And I'm too lazy to do it rn

So if anyone can, thanks

[finite wind]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1sjb6et/a_terrible_realisation_about_the_terrible_tyrant/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[frank dove]

I feel like every so often you see a video with actually reasonable solutions to things you thought would never make sense

[finite wind]

Cool theory

[frank dove]

This too, I never even considered that, but it's like 90% intentional

[dapper willow]

Yeah

Although i dont think feyforn is a hb unlike the video maker

[frank dove]

Why not?

[twin dragon]

Why would it be a hb

what indicators are there that its a hb

[frank dove]

Well I feel like we don't have a clear definition of higher beings, it feels similar to unn imo

Idk, there's not really evidence pointing either way

[foggy stratus]

Unn actually does shit that a Higher Being does. And she also gets a break spot in P5, which only Higher Beings get.

[frank dove]

Yeah there are no break spots in silksong

What does unn do that higher beings do

[foggy stratus]

The entirety of Greenpath from her dreams.

And made the Mosskins in a manner similar to Radiance and the Moths.

[stray fog]

Bro cooked better than walter white

[near jasper]

And queens garden and the rest of the greenpathy places

[stray fog]

Fayforn higher being discussion?

[frank dove]

Fayforn has driftlins

And the area is named after it

[foggy stratus]

Is there proof of it?

[whole holly]

i watched it, and other similar video

[frank dove]

Yeah

[stray fog]

Do we know that it isn't the other way around

[foggy stratus]

Or its named after the area.

[frank dove]

Design and singing dialogue

[whole holly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiYRXQW_31Y

[stray fog]

The aether vivarium posted again

W

[frank dove]

Idk if we have any way of knowing

Weavenest was built for the fayforn right?

[stray fog]

Probably

[frank dove]

So it was there before weavers

[stray fog]

For the climb

[foggy stratus]

Or it showed up after the Weavers and they took interest in it.

[whole holly]

i don't know why Weavers would take interest in Fayforn? i don't think they would need faydown if they aren't in mount fay so, what is actual use

[frank dove]

Ok so if it is called fayforn

Why would the weavers named the mountain mount fay

When there is nothing there

[near jasper]

Feathers

[frank dove]

There particles there are from fayforn's feathers or are related, correct?

[foggy stratus]

People can just make up names you know.

[near jasper]

Because they didnt feel like silksoaring above every ledge

[whole holly]

they wouldn't need said feathers unless they are in mount fay anyways

[frank dove]

I feel like we aren't sure whether fayforn is hb or not, but idk why we have to question everything to this degree

That is a possibility, but why would team cherry do that

[stray fog]

It chooses what gift to grant

[whole holly]

does gifts differ based on weaver it meets?

Mask Maker is seemingly wearing Faydown too

[frank dove]

It seems to be based on character yes

[stray fog]

Thats what Im inferring from this dialogue

[whole holly]

what else could fayforn even give?

[frank dove]

Death

[foggy stratus]

Insight.

[stray fog]

Insight
according to the Weavers

[whole holly]

i think that refers to deadliness of climb

[near jasper]

Fayforn deciding to give mr mushroom literally nothing for shits and giggles

[frank dove]

Upon that summit gained, and creature hailed, know it shall choose what gift to grant, with death as likely as insight.

[whole holly]

i was going to comment on that, Insight is also same thing Eva gives us

[stray fog]

He didn't make the climb

He cheated using his flight abilities

[frank dove]

It says it grants the death

[whole holly]

similar to Mask Maker's Sight

[near jasper]

Wait how the hell can they even understand mr mushroom

Does fayforn have sporeshroom

[frank dove]

Mr mushroom too?

[stray fog]

Yes

[whole holly]

??

[stray fog]

Fayforn doesnt have those eyes though

[foggy stratus]

They're pretending to understand.

[dapper willow]

can a weaver not take interest in anything for the sake of it

[frank dove]

He has swirly eyes

[stray fog]

The spiral eyes

[whole holly]

performative philosophy

[frank dove]

You can only see in ending cutscenes

[near jasper]

Let girl have hobbies smh

[frank dove]

Bc they're so small

[whole holly]

i get it but i was comparing eva, fayforn and mask maker

[stray fog]

Fayforn doesnt have those eyes

So she probably doesn't have that sight

[frank dove]

Question, does mr mushroom's dialogue actually have any relevance to where he is

[dapper willow]

soft magic system strikes again

[twilit storm]

That’s a good question

[near jasper]

Yea I think

[frank dove]

Like can we assume his dialogue at mount fay is related to fayforn

[foggy stratus]

[stray fog]

It doesn't have relevance to anything at all lowkey 😭

[dapper willow]

I think his dialouges are meta references??

I'M not sure

[twilit storm]

How did Mr mushroom get to pharloom and why is he there?

[frank dove]

"...One can visit the past, but then memories become contradictory...
...When the call rings out again, will you let your previous actions cloud your vision?
...By claw, by voice... History always rises to meet us...
...Oh. Excuse me."

[stray fog]

By flying

Or launching

Whatever its called

[whole holly]

i was talking about Insight, something Eva and Fayforn seem to share, which i noted to be similar to mask maker's sight, that's all

[twilit storm]

Makes sense

[dapper willow]

that world sight ability is so strange and it also should be hella op

[stray fog]

Oh

[frank dove]

So IF IT IS RELEVANT we can maybe guess that the 'call' could be like hornet calling with tuning fork and needolin

[stray fog]

World sight (the one that zee, hornet, and tk have) is different from the mask maker type of sight

[whole holly]

she is connected to memories, the fayforn

[near jasper]

I think most of mister mushroom's Silksong dialogue is about the pilgrims

[frank dove]

Going into wild speculation, maybe fayforn killed a lot of weavers because they were all turning bad but now when new people show up she still has to judge fairly

[dapper willow]

does hornet actually have that
And doesn't mister mushroom have something like that too

[frank dove]

How do we know

[whole holly]

Insight, Farsight, The Sight, there are so many of them it is hard to keep up

[stray fog]

She gets that after using the farsight

[foggy stratus]

Don't forget Silken Sight.

[stray fog]

Mr mushroom has mask maker like eyes
So he has the mask maker sight I think

[stray fog]

Mnemonic rocks in mt fay

[whole holly]

she is called fell heart of the frost, said frost in Mount Fay is Coldshard which has Mnemonic Forces said in Memory Crystal and Mnemonid Hunter's Journal Description

[foggy stratus]

The frost could also just refer to the freezing temperatures of the region.

[frank dove]

Good point

[near jasper]

Its weird how irrelevant the Wish system is