sk-lore

[frank dove]

I've seen people say a petal is missing

But never realized it's actually fading just like silksong

Probably because it starts right as cutscene is ending

[sick tinsel]

Yeah because that petal absorbed the godseeker and the void inside it

The fading part is prob the void fighting back

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think absorbed is the right word

it did…something

[floral quiver]

Silk is more powerful than Radiance cause she lasts 5 minutes. 😄 :joking:

[sick tinsel]

Maybe resist

[frank dove]

I feel like a lot is pointing at plants in future dlc/game

[sick tinsel]

The radiance survived void tentacles, mother silk didn't 🤑

[frank dove]

With white lady, greyroot, grey mourner, everbloom, etc

[sick tinsel]

This reminds me of something I thought about

Queens garden would probably become full of Everbloom flowers after the ending

[frank dove]

Somewhere said zemer was from another land

[floral quiver]

Isnt the everbloom a foreign plant?

[blissful harbor]

yes but we see it spread when planting the fire ttime

[sick tinsel]

Yeah but it spreads when you give it to the mantis lover

You can return there later and get an Everbloom flower

If U missed giving it to other bugs

[frank dove]

Ok it seems overlooked that white lady knew about it but zemer was the only one who had it

[sick tinsel]

Lands serene

[sick tinsel]

Maybe the white lady also came from lands serene ?

It's never stated if the white lady is native to hallownest or foreign

[blissful harbor]

i mean WL denies any relation to the flower

i doubt it

[frank dove]

Ccmaci's 'white lady conspiracy' video seemed not believable but interesting, however it seems like white lady and zemer are working together

And related

[frank dove]

She says it was their backup plan type thing

[floral quiver]

She came to Hallownest if I recall?

I'm pretty sure she's not native to Hallownest, much like the King.

I need to lore dive

[frank dove]

Don't we all 😭

[sick tinsel]

Yea

I love the fact that she lost the ability to move freely

[floral quiver]

Gave it up in fact. Because if she could move she'd instinctively conquer when conquest is not needed

[sick tinsel]

Also could the white lady in pantheon 5 foreshadow some post game lore ?

[frank dove]

Unrelated, but when you have delicate flower white lady also says, "To hold it so close, one must surely be unaware of its nature..."

[sick tinsel]

I kinda find it logical that the WL grown so much to an unbound form

[frank dove]

Seems like missed hint at void-repellent properties

A lot of people thought it was teleporting or something before silksong

[sick tinsel]

It's viewed on silksong that she had the ability to move, we don't see any roots attacked to the ground

And she kinda conquered queens garden

[floral quiver]

No I mean, by the time of the game. She could move before

[floral quiver]

And intentionally stayed there. Basically imprisoned herself

[blissful harbor]

yea she’s wondering why TK is holding the equivalent of a nuke in its hands

[sick tinsel]

After hallownest fall yeah

[frank dove]

Greyroot feels kind of constrained too

She doesn't move

[floral quiver]

She knows her nature, her instinct to birth and conquer and is very much keeping herself from doing so.

Very galadriel

[floral quiver]

She's spread throughout Shellwood

If you pay attention to the background Greyroot is in a lot of Shellwood

[blissful harbor]

she reaches bilewater

[floral quiver]

That root is big

[blissful harbor]

or wherever the twisted bud is found i’m pretty sure it’s bilewater

[sick tinsel]

Maybe the Everbloom is way stronger than we think

[sick tinsel]

Bilewater

[frank dove]

And bilewater...

[sick tinsel]

Who, WL ?

[floral quiver]

Yeah

[frank dove]

Yeah that's kind of disturbing to think she stretches that far

But wait

[floral quiver]

She's intentionally restraining herself

[sick tinsel]

Pretty sure WL arrived after the pale king and chosed to marry instead of war

And as I said earlier she got land for herself after

[frank dove]

If we assume all root species are from the lands serene, possibility of the lands serene just being northeast of pharloom

[sick tinsel]

No I don't agree on this

[blissful harbor]

what makes you think they’re from the lands serene

[sick tinsel]

If lands serene was close to pharloom the Everbloom would've grown there

[frank dove]

So greyroot actually stretches

[floral quiver]

I don't think roots "come from" a specific place

[sick tinsel]

And the greyroot is clearly not from there

[floral quiver]

They're just something that exists

[frank dove]

White lady and zemer both came from a different place

[sick tinsel]

Probably the consequences of soul and pollution

[frank dove]

Why

Because she isn't serene?

[floral quiver]

Yes. I meant the species

[sick tinsel]

If greyroot is a witch she should have some ability to control soul

[blissful harbor]

i mean her parasite can mess with soul

[floral quiver]

Because it's very planet of hats to assume that this species is from this specific place and nowhere else?

[sick tinsel]

Yeah

[frank dove]

What is the glowing thing in her house

[blissful harbor]

it can petrify things, and eva doesn’t want it near so it won’t “claim her soul”

[sick tinsel]

Idk

[floral quiver]

It very much can do things with soul.

[blissful harbor]

her lamp?

[frank dove]

Good point, but so far all weavers have been from same place, all moths, etc

[frank dove]

Is there a silkfly in it

[blissful harbor]

i mean not all shamans are from the same place

[sick tinsel]

Hear me out on this one, the entire purpose of the greyroot is to give birth to a higher being

[frank dove]

Good point

[blissful harbor]

those the species yoi mentioned were created

unless we assume roots were created

[floral quiver]

Yes but those are purposed organisms to use a term from a different search action game

[sick tinsel]

They seem natural

[blissful harbor]

peak world mentioned

[frank dove]

Well white lady is higher being so I think you have made me realize they are not

Unless she is from a parasite too

[sick tinsel]

Idk

[sick tinsel]

I find it interesting how all snail shamans master soul

Just like moths mastered with essence

[graceful grail]

Does anybody have a picture of the taxidermied blue aquatic bug in the memoriom

[sick tinsel]

Lemme search

[graceful grail]

Im trying to find out where groal got this mask from

He must be using it to focus like the soul sanctum scholars use gems to

[graceful grail]

I cant find it 😭

[whole holly]

Shamans also use Skulls for weird reason

[graceful grail]

Has bro been to Pharloom?

[whole holly]

i think it is just generic skull/exoskeleton

[graceful grail]

It somehow looks very close for some reason

[whole holly]

i hope we get to know more about Shamans as species

other then them being fixated on void...

weird thing to get fixated on considering results but okay...

[sick tinsel]

Sorry I couldent

[graceful grail]

Someone had it on a short i saw, one sec

[sick tinsel]

What was the room like

[graceful grail]

Its the one to the left of the materium location

Found it.

If the tenticals were carved off it would be very similar.

But its like groal to cut a part of a bug off for his personal use.

Since he is using a bloatroaches back for its wings

[glacial warren]

Honestly for how bothersome they are ingame, you kind of have to feel bad for Groal and the Stilkin.

They only became monsters because the Citadel chose to turn their home into their personal landfill.

[flint python]

The Citadel clearly pissed off a LOT of bugs in Pharloom. No wonder civil wars happened in the kingdom in the past.

[frank dove]

I wonder if it has any effect on him

Bc its so small

[foggy stratus]

A quick list of all I can think of:
Skarrs
Verdania
Weavers
Karak
Stillkin
Pinstresses
Shamans(maybe)
GMS
Hallownest(maybe?)
The Knight(after SotV ending)
Underworks bugs(half count)
If I'm missing any please tell.

[frank dove]

Gms!

[flint python]

That and maybe Hallownest, since they kidnapped Hornet, (Hallownest's princess)

[foggy stratus]

Probably no one in Hallownest knows.

Except maybe WL.

Oh and probably TK.

[flint python]

Or Hollow if they live. (if Doing Godmaster ending)

Hollow (being THK)

[frank dove]

Well this all depends on whether wl is actually real in red memory

Instead of just hornet's manifestation of her

[foggy stratus]

Would underworks bugs count?

[frank dove]

Well partly yes but in some way they still think they are being given a noble holy duty

[flint python]

It's between not liking them but needing to survive, so they bite their tounges to not say anything or they actually like them and think they're working to enter the holy citadel.

[late goblet]

Is Nyleth the life force of Shellwood in the exact same way like Karmelita is w Far Fields and the Skarr, or in a different way? If it's the same, does that mean she's not actually dead when we fight her?

[lyric rose]

Also the muckmaggot thing was literally creating a problem to solve a problem

Wow! Now we have food!

and we can never grow anything else ever again

[floral quiver]

Well why would they, Greymoor is about silk dreging not food growing, always been that way. /s

[graceful grail]

Wut? It used to be a farm. It was repourpoused to get silk dregs. (i’m guessing this is post citadel because the silk dregs come from the cremated bodies of whiteward)

Also, Graymour being repurposed led to the remaining inhabitants breeding muckroaches because there was no food coming from the Moores anymore.

[foggy stratus]

The wiki mentions it being old farmland.

[floral quiver]

Yes. Thus the sarcasm tag. One of the characters finds it ludicrous to believe that Greymoor used to be about farming because it's been about silk dregs for so long.

I was being sarcasticly humorous by imitating them on the assumption that people would remember the character and recognize my non seriousness.

[foggy stratus]

There are better ways to express sarcasm than "/s". Try ""

[floral quiver]

Or I can continue to use /s, like I have without people not recognizing it for decades.

Maybe /sarc would be better.

(I'm being petulant mostly cause I think that emoji is ugly as sin)

[near jasper]

/

[grave stream]

topic?

[floral quiver]

Like, in general or specifically involving the last few posts?

[grave stream]

the latter

eh i guess both?

idk

whatcha talking about

[grave stream]

/this is a sarcastic statement purely for engagement of the person viewing this message

there we go

perfect (/this is a sarcastic statement purely for engagement of the person viewing this message )

[floral quiver]

I made a sarcastic quip to an earlier post and my sarcasm tag wasnt recognized so multiple posters felt the need to explain the lore to me.

I then broke down that I was being sarcastic and why I assumed people would recognize the sarcasm, which lead to one of the posters telling me that /s wasnt a good sarcasm indicator and using an ugly as sin emoji would be better.

[grave stream]

theres no emoji with you in it?

[floral quiver]

I just hate that particular emoji on sight 😆

[grave stream]

[floral quiver]

Just awful.

Blegh!

[grave stream]

[floral quiver]

Bleeegh, I say!

[grave stream]

i will now ping you at random times with the emoji until you block me @floral quiver

[floral quiver]

Okay have fun?

You do you

[cold peak]

My sawblade senses are tingling

[limpid summit]

Yes

Pretty much yes

Sister Splinter says “Other other sleeping deep”

[lyric rose]

IM TALKING ABOUT SINNERS ROAD AND BILEWATER

[floral quiver]

Yes?

Sinner's road was the replacement food supplier after Greymoor was switched from agriculture to silk harvesting, along with being a minor prison.

Is there a reason you virtually shouted?

[lyric rose]

I can’t physically shout on discord

lol

[candid linden]

where does radiance get her swords and where does gms get her needles from

[neon hound]

The game

[flint python]

She is a goddess of dreams, she can manfest the weapons herself in her realm.

[stark ocean]

probably just a part of her body

for gms

or the choir made it for her

[twin dragon]

i wouldnt say she "controls" them but moreso ties them to her

[graceful grail]

One thing we know silk does is Bind things (Makes them One)

[twin dragon]

She can bind stuff but like

she doesnt do that to pilgrims

and assumedly so since we only see her bind in a cut ending

[modest trail]

is the radiance a male

[dire lynx]

no

shes a she

[modest trail]

oh okay

[silver prawn]

No, the Radiance is she

"The Radiance is a higher being of light similar to Essence, and as such, opposed to the Void, her ancient enemy. The Moth Tribe is born from her light and in return revered her." - credit to HKWiki

[opaque sable]

hi

did you guys ever notice colossal backbones on the background of areas such as bonebottom and the slopes at mount fay?

do yall think these are from wyrms?

[silver prawn]

Could be plausible as they traveled a lot, but we have no actual proof to indicate that's the case

Keep in mind there are a lot of skeletal remains of once majestic bugs

[twin dragon]

hkwiki's kinda unreliable on lore

The radiance being an "ancient enemy" of the void is never elaborated upon

[silver prawn]

It's not

And as I always say

[twin dragon]

Nope, the entirety of the lowlands would be covered in ash otherwise

[silver prawn]

The lore is open to interpretation

[twin dragon]

Yeah

That's in part why

usually hkwiki also doesnt go in depth

[silver prawn]

It shouldn't

It's strictly informative

[dire lynx]

i mean, she calls the void that in dn dialogue, no?

[twin dragon]

yeah thats about it

it could be referring to the vessels n all

but

wouldnt that be PK's fault

[dire lynx]

vessels are not ancient to the radiance gng

[silver prawn]

No? The Void and Radiance existed before the PK reached Hallownest?

[twin dragon]

Its really just a loose claim

[silver prawn]

So the ancient enemy is the Void

The Shade Lord if you want to say it

[twin dragon]

its never elaborated upon

[dire lynx]

plus pk lore tablets where he calls radiance his blazing kin and the void the power opposed

[twin dragon]

the shade lord isnt a thing till tk gets the voidheart

[silver prawn]

That's your interpretation

[twin dragon]

You tell me how the fuck can that exist

The void has always been represented as a chaotic and uncontrollable force

[dire lynx]

if you mean the being that appears in the godhome ending, then no

that only exists with the focus of the godseekers

[twin dragon]

the shade lord is actually dream no more knight i think

the thing in etv's void entity or void given focus im pretty sure

[dire lynx]

file name for void given focus is shade lord

[silver prawn]

I did specify the Void first

What else could it be?

[twin dragon]

what

[dire lynx]

could what be?

[silver prawn]

I won't bother explaining something I mentioned a bit above. Please backread

[twin dragon]

The void was never a single united entity until tk obtained the voidheart

nor ever controllable

[near jasper]

Whats the topic rn

[twin dragon]

death

[dire lynx]

the knight is the lord of shades, regardless of their physical form, but the entity at the end of godhome doesnt exist naturally

[twin dragon]

They mention some kind of older shade lord

[silver prawn]

Great, I can agree with this one

[twin dragon]

i think

[whole holly]

i am pretty sure shade lord is just lord of shades, which has three forms, Ghost, Void Given Focus and Void given Form

[low oracle]

Then how does it come forth in Silksong? If it can't exist naturally.

[twin dragon]

Yeah but that didn't exist till tk obtained the vh

[twin dragon]

Its flashed specifically to provoke ambiguity

[whole holly]

❓

[twin dragon]

if it was there i dont think the forms would fucking change at lightspeed

[twin dragon]

The void was never unified under anything till tk came forth

[dire lynx]

the statue you get shade cloak at calls you lord of shades after getting the void heart, before that it says "...Void... Power... Without unity..."

[whole holly]

yea obviously, we know that

[low oracle]

My guess is that it only appeared as the Knight so to give the siblings their individual forms and not terrify Hornet (she literally never saw that thing beforehand).

[twin dragon]

Yeah it calls YOU

[dire lynx]

split timeline imo

[twin dragon]

I mean you can argue that but like, is it really realistic that the forms are switched that fast

[low oracle]

I thought it didn't have dialogue before. Or do you need the 1800 Dreamnail?

[twin dragon]

i see the ambiguity more plausible

[dire lynx]

yeah, upgraded dn

[silver prawn]

You need the 1800 Dreamnail

[low oracle]

Which is the reason that they left THK out of SS. Schrödingers Hollow Knight or something.

[silver prawn]

If you try it with a regular Dreamnail you get a barrier

[twin dragon]

Yeah

Literally 50/50 ass ending

[near jasper]

I cant tell if thk is alive or dead until i open the hallownest
"..."
Shut up

[low oracle]

Don't forget that this is the Shade Lord / Lord of Shades at its very peak in its very own element. Equivalent to ABSRAD.

It's true though. There is no one true ending because each ending has a timeline. Some lead into silksong timelines, while others don't.

HOLLOW KNIGHT:

Hollow Knight > Silksong

Dream No More > Silksong Act3

Sealed Siblings > End

Embrace the Void > Silksong Act3

Embrace the Void (Flower) > Unresolved

SILKSONG:

Weaver Queen < Any (not Sealed Siblings)

Twisted Child < Any (not Sealed Siblings)

Sister of the Void < Embrace the Void, Dream No More

[foggy stratus]

Technically any ending but Sealed Siblings could lead to Act 3. Its just that Hornet would die in the Void after Everbloom breaks. Or turn into some weird Weaver Vessel thing.(which would require dying ig)

[wet walrus]

The vessels and Hornet may have confirmed foresights though not in a way useful for combat.
At the beginning TK returns to Hallownest most likely without any memories. He seeks to undo the seals. Somehow before tk even starts the quest to do so Hornet says

Come no closer, ghost.
I've seen you, creeping through the undergrowth, stalking me.
This old kingdom... A terrible thing awakens. I can smell it in the air...
I know what you are. I know what you'd try to do. I can't allow it.
After she is beaten in greenpath and get the cloak the dreamers appear to confront tk
Would it seek to break the Seals?
They cannot be undone.

They must be undone.

Let us sleep little shadow.
Return to your darkness.
Allow us our peace.

Now the question now is "huh, the dreamers also know that, it is self contradictory"
Seer also knows what TK tries to do and hands him the dusty dream nail and tells him even the dreamers aren't safe from this weapon.
What's important is TK already knows the only way to save Hallownest (or at least his trapped brother thk) is to undo everything PK has done to seal the infection including breaking the seals. This type of foresight also belongs to wyrms. Pale King made a kingdom that lasted for very very long time that it is measured by ages. He only ever took an L to the inevitable doom of hallownest meaning his foresight could also help him see through possibilities, decisions and their outcomes. Since I mentioned that this is another line Hornet says.

Ghost. I see you've faced the place of your birth, and now drape yourself in the substance of its shadow.
Though our strength is born of similar source, that part of you, that crucial emptiness, I do not share.
Funny then, that such darkness gives me hope. Within it, I see the chance of change.
A difficult journey you would face, but a choice it can create. Prolong our world's stasis or face the heart of its infection.

Since TC stated that all endings in Hollow Knight games are valid and have no intention of a "true ending", it is safe to say Hornet did foresee Sealed Siblings and Dream No More outcomes, a fate that is at the hands of TK.

I forgot to mention Herrah also tells Hornet only if she resists the weavers desires she could find the hope beyond and that's when she was a toddler

So Hornet could have a foresight that gives her a superior understanding over other bugs just like wyrms

[foggy stratus]

Vessels are basically just shell suits for the Shade within. Not the same as the original children so I doubt they'd have foresight, assuming its even is genetic in the firstplace. And Hornet's would probably be rather shitty given she's only half Wyrm. Again, assuming it even is genetically passed down.

[dire lynx]

there isnt any actual evidence to support foresight in any of the kings offspring

[fading shard]

I mean if it was genetic wouldn't hornet have light capabilities and world sense?

it doesn't seem she inherited any of the Pale kings abilities

doesn't even have any seal or dream related powers either

[lone folio]

She has some kind of light I think

[fading shard]

not even teleportation

[lone folio]

but its not a very good light

[fading shard]

her having any light capabilities and powers is never mentioned or shown

[idle mesa]

hornet did inherit something from pale king

idk what it is but she did

she IS a pale offspring

[fading shard]

she inherited some dragon ball random "strong power"

[idle mesa]

otherwise the weavers wouldve used any other weaver

[idle mesa]

exactly

[lone folio]

I mean in game theres a little light source coming from hornet

[dire lynx]

crest absorbtion and soul mastery

[idle mesa]

she got pale kings short ass build

[idle mesa]

true...

[fading shard]

She has silk mastery

She got that from her mom

[idle mesa]

see now

[fading shard]

given what's said in a relic

[wet walrus]

Though our strength is born of similar source, that part of you, that crucial emptiness, I do not share.
Ok idk what she means but considering Hornet was literally bred to be powerful enough to reclaim pharloom. So the wyrm genes could be the source of her power and so could be the wisdom. Also Herrah says only she can find hope beyond opposed to what weavers seek. So her superior thinking is also most likely inherited

[lone folio]

Could be purely gameplay but like the first hollow knight didnt have that so.... 🤷‍♂️ (the first game needed an item for the light)

[idle mesa]

i think the silk used in hk

has soul in some way

i think this is widely agreed

[fading shard]

well yes

[dire lynx]

the ability to convert external sources of soul into silk is unique to hornet, it comes from her father

[fading shard]

it's stated that silk is soul threaded into a more solid form

[idle mesa]

so like

thats soul control

[fading shard]

No??

Silk is in general said to come from soul

that's the items descriptions

not something relating to her

just silks natural nature

that's why Gms is still a pale being while only using silk and not soul

[dire lynx]

im aware, but only hornet can channel soul from external sources, the other weavers can only use their own

[idle mesa]

natrual nature

[fading shard]

because silk is said to be soul woven into silk

[fading shard]

😔

[wet walrus]

I won't let this meme die

I can't let it

[idle mesa]

i will not be forgotten!!!

[fading shard]

https://tenor.com/view/plankton-spongebob-you-weak-minded-gif-24832290

[fading shard]

I'm a fool

I probably would say chai tea

[wet walrus]

The dawn will break!
Light will not be consumed

[idle mesa]

i ran out of diologue

[dire lynx]

hornet is the only weaver to have an unlimited amount of soul because she can use the soul of others

[idle mesa]

unlimited soul?

[wet walrus]

Can't she produce them passively?

[fading shard]

Gms is showcased to be capable of the same thing though

she's shown to be able at the very least absorb other beings

[dire lynx]

gms isnt a weaver

i said WEAVER

[fading shard]

okay yeah fair

[idle mesa]

mhm

[fading shard]

I know I just wanted to technically point that out

;-;

[dire lynx]

pale being and god of silk has infinite silk, who coulda seen that coming

[idle mesa]

i mean

[foggy stratus]

Not me, I don't got eyes.

[fading shard]

From what we've seen the Pale king seems to have the most soul prowess

[idle mesa]

so you have

no eyes?

[foggy stratus]

[idle mesa]

dude ari i have a crazy boss idea lets remove her fucking eyes

[foggy stratus]

No actually. They're Orbs of Soul driven into my head to serve as eyes.

[fading shard]

oh damn

[idle mesa]

and her entire gimmick is bullet hell with not a care in the world

[fading shard]

we obviously don't get to see him do anything ALIVE

[dire lynx]

goated backer, sad that TC cut so much of her OG lore

[idle mesa]

mhm

[fading shard]

Honestly surprising they even cut so much of it

given they have tackled far darker topics before

I get they stated, that it mortified them or something along those lines but still

[dire lynx]

also heres the line for other weavers having limited silk, showing that hornets level of mastery over silk is from the kings side

Sister, spider, sat between salt and stone,
Build those tools of brilliant mind imagined,
Aid us when our Silk has waned.

[fading shard]

I'm aware of that lore statement

[idle mesa]

mhm

[fading shard]

believe me I know ;-;

[foggy stratus]

I always interpreted it as when their silk isnt enough to fight. Especially given that's the tablet from where you get Silkshot, aka the rail gun that uses silk.

[idle mesa]

silk

[dire lynx]

aid us when our silk has waned

they acknowledge it as something inevitable held by the future

[fading shard]

"showing that hornets level of mastery over silk is from the kings side" I mean I get what you're trying to say but from what we're made aware of he has the capability of generating infinite soul from his own body and has a near nigh infinite supply stored up given the soul totems of his

hornet is not so lucky

Like she technically can do the same

but nowhere close to his level

[dire lynx]

well of course, shes only half pale after all

[fading shard]

I am a bit salty he taught the pure vessel how to teleport

but not hornet

Listen the freaking soul sanctum scholars got to learn teleportation

[idle mesa]

pure vessel isnt teleporting tk js blacks out for 1 second while pv moves to the new position

[fading shard]

while Hornet has to resort to ugh silk soar

[fading shard]

that's actually what happens for all the radiance too

[idle mesa]

mhm

[fading shard]

the soul scholars and radiance don't know teleportation

we just hallucinate

[idle mesa]

yep

[fading shard]

though in all seriousness the pale king is like the second?? strongest higher being we know of

if not tied to first

[idle mesa]

i mean

[fading shard]

(ignoring the knight)

[idle mesa]

waht feat has the pale king himself done

[fading shard]

I am not acknowledging the knight

[fading shard]

he get's a bunch of crazy power statements

[dire lynx]

i would say so, only the lord of shades above him

[idle mesa]

like

[fading shard]

Like the one that it hurts to look at him

because of how powerful his light is?

[idle mesa]

ah

[fading shard]

the fact that his dead corpses after glow

[idle mesa]

pk aura

[fading shard]

was enough to bring people to hallownest

the fact that apperently bugs got overwhelmed being next to the pale king

because of how much power he radiated

[idle mesa]

this will always be funny to me

[fading shard]

the fact emilitia can even notice similarities of the Pale kings and everblooms light?

[fading shard]

She's biased asf

but the fact she can even notice similarities in the twos light

is impressive enough

[idle mesa]

mhm

[fading shard]

to notice similarities to the Pale kings and FIRST LIGHTS light

Besides the steel masters have an interest in him

given what jinn states

[dire lynx]

i would say

1. Lord of Shade
2. Pale King
3. Radiance
4. Grand Mother Silk

[fading shard]

I agree

other then gms

I'd say 5. gms
and 4. nmh

the nightmare heart

is said to be the deepest power of the nightmare realm

and the white lady knows of it

and it seems to be a somewhat big shot in of itself

[low oracle]

She wouldn*t turn into a vessel in any way, but you're right otherwise.

[fading shard]

not trying to demean grand mother silk

it's just the crazy statements of the nightmare heart

also the fact that the "fight" we have with it

isn't even a fight

it's a performence that at the end AIDS the nightmare heart

the best we can do is just banish it from hallownest

just saying

[foggy stratus]

Void kills her, scoops out her insides and replaces them with Void.

[stark ocean]

then she wouldnt be able to talk during skong

[dire lynx]

the heart hasnt really done much, whereas gms fought off the void for an extremley impressive amount of time, especially when considering she was just dropped smack in the middle of it with no warning

[foggy stratus]

It would only in theory happen at the end of Act 3 if it follows a none DNM/ETV ending.

[fading shard]

it's not as impressive as we make it out to be since the void is just a substance and she just made a silk caccoon to hide herself from the fragments of void

[low oracle]

Void never replaced anyones insides, it just replaced the power of life that vessels ran on. Instead they know run on what is basically anti-life / negative life force. Also, I gotta go, I can discuss a bit more later perhaps.

[fading shard]

that mindlessly thrath around

[fading shard]

THe void canonically killed the vessels

[stark ocean]

is this about sealed siblings somehow leading to silkong

[fading shard]

as said by white lady

they got killed and then born again

[idle mesa]

dont trust this user

[foggy stratus]

[fading shard]

bye have a good one

[dire lynx]

void actively seeks out and attacks soul, and is described by the pale king as the power opposed

[fading shard]

it is the power opposed yes

I'm aware

I can show the lore tablet

[dire lynx]

the fact she is holding back the void sea with just her own soul is a more impressive feat than anything the heart has actually shown or been stated to have

[fading shard]

"VOID, yours is the power opposed.
But yours is potential, eternity potential"

[fading shard]

we actively see that the void still seeped in

it wasn't like she kept the void out

she just made a protective caccoon from most of it

besides the void is literally just a substance, kinda easy outsmarting something that's just angry water

[fading shard]

no seriously it's funny to think about but void can be described as just extra dangerous water

[dire lynx]

she still held back most of it, and was able to hold it back for an extensive time

[dire lynx]

and again, void activley seeks out and attacks soul

...It is the void, stretched up into this world and its husks. I know it well, that force, its nature. If it senses soul, it will drive voracious towards it.

[fading shard]

I know

but

still not that hard to outsmart

[dire lynx]

thats irrelevant

[fading shard]

Idk it's just hard not to take the "deepest power of the nightmare realm"

and use that statement alone as something that just barely outranks gms

[fading shard]

especially since it doesn't even try to atack or invade

and even then we get statements of it's power

[dire lynx]

as far as we know its the only higher being in that realm, its like saying "biggest land predator in australia"

it sounds impressive until you realise its just a dog, because everything else is tiny

[fading shard]

I'm pretty sure it's still meant to be taken a bit impressively

[dire lynx]

for sure, but its still featless

i would probably put it at 5 or 6

[fading shard]

I mean we don't ever get to hurt it

(I am not disagreeing with you atp I just thought to bring some other stuff about the nightmare heart so please don't take this as me being ignorant)

[fading shard]

but yeah you've made a really good point

[whole holly]

that's the topic

[crimson patio]

I mean
Idk
GMS lost to a battle of attrition

Feels kinda auraless

[stark ocean]

no gms has a plenty of aura

well more of a demigod in that universe

[crimson patio]

Even with all her silk she could not pull herself and lace out of the void

Just laying there
Waiting to die

Tbf
Steel soul is probably the canon route

[fading shard]

that's not canonical

[crimson patio]

Death is death

[fading shard]

it's like saying the knight loses to a tick

[crimson patio]

Hornet doesn’t respawn

[fading shard]

it's like saying Frisk from undertale who canonically is a universal threat power house is as weak as a froggit

[crimson patio]

No they exist

The service was never used, tho

[stark ocean]

jinn mentions jiji

[crimson patio]

They do

Exists after the vessels die

[fading shard]

she didn't even win that fight though, that battle resulted at best in a draw

given that hornet still technically loses

as her body couldn't withstand absorbing a higher being

[stark ocean]

didnt she withstood it

she becomes next weaver queen

[fading shard]

If you bind gms instead of doing act 3

[fading shard]

she loses her sense of self

and her body completely transforms, transforming her into a gms clone

all endings are canon

[stark ocean]

i think thats for the deleted ending

[fading shard]

the deleted ending is gms binding hornet

and getting a power boost

The weaver queen ending is hornet getting overwhelmed by gms power

she out right states such a thing is possible with eva

[crimson patio]

Hornet binding GMS: Becomes like GMS

GMS binding Hornet: Still GMS

Conclusion: Hornet’s sense of self cannot override GMS’s self

[fading shard]

so yeah, the best hornet can do is end such a fight in a draw

[whole holly]

only parasite can override both, which is bizarre

[fading shard]

the parasite doesn't override both, she just......kills them

[fading shard]

kinda?

I'm not even sure what I'd classify that ending as

[crimson patio]

She couldn’t have if GMS didn’t give her all the silk left in her

[whole holly]

i mean parasite saps their strength and they become host/energy source of new parasite

[fading shard]

I mean yeah but the same applies to leeches?

[whole holly]

hornet says parasite saps the strength of her, to shams

[fading shard]

or any parasitic being

[crimson patio]

And even then Hornet still didnt escape the void

Without TK’s help she was cooked asf

[whole holly]

exactly, people don't get it

[crimson patio]

Conclusion: nothing is stronger than the void

[near jasper]

Lamp

[whole holly]

yarnaby would cure base knight's emptiness

[near jasper]

The light house in the abyss

[fading shard]

Parasites in general act in such a manner

I referenced leeches as they also yk do something similar irl

one was a memory copy

[crimson patio]

I don’t doubt that the unified void can finally overwhelm that lighthouse

Ununified void couldnt cuz it lacks purpose
Never had a reason to attack the lighthouse

[fading shard]

the other was the real deal

[near jasper]

Delicate flower is old and everbloom was being cared for by a glowing god root

[whole holly]

i mean in parasites case it inhibits silk usage, such as binding

[near jasper]

White lady

[crimson patio]

Everbloom is the perfected prime version of the flower from how Hornet remembers it

Not the fragile one Ze’mer gave TK

[fading shard]

the ununified void doesn't even have a mind or will

so yeah

As stated in multiple lore entries

with the void being united to the knight

it's literally stateed

that it comes from lands serene

[crimson patio]

It came from another place

[fading shard]

hallownest isn't the home of the everbloom

the lands serene are

Which given the little information we know about that place

is a place of great significance

also ze'mer looks like a anime girl without arms

[near jasper]

Lands serene is the lore bible team cherry has in a vault

[crimson patio]

How did you come to that conclusion

[near jasper]

Ze'mer is from there

[fading shard]

where was that suggested

[crimson patio]

Why does being a foreigner mean you can’t be loyal

[fading shard]

I mean if we take the cut kings brand dialogue

(ik not usable but to give us a idea still)

[crimson patio]

I’m sure it’s a cut content for a reason

[fading shard]

she seemed to show care for the pale king

no she just mentions the Pale kings stress

which isn't even cut from the game

we still have the "great shame mention" from mask maker

the troubles he had that his retainers noticed

and a lot of examples showcasing that yes he did feel bad about the vessel creation

[crimson patio]

Anyway
The five great knights didnt become great knights for being disloyal

[fading shard]

so jojo is just wrong about him not feeling bad about it

[fading shard]

Hegemol is genuinely legendary

Hegemol is the one we know the most about whilst not even meeting him

[crimson patio]

So legendary we haven’t even seen bro in person

[fading shard]

actually the defenders crest was given to ogrim by the pale king

for being such a loyal knight

[stark ocean]

he wasnt weak, the knight is just stronger

[fading shard]

He get's a statue, he get's the key to the city capital, he's apparently the most famous and belovedo f the five great knights by the citizens and supposedly one of the strongest mortal characters we know of, and we don't see him

...............Why

[crimson patio]

I mean
He’s also been living in the sewers for how many years

Might have gone a little rusty

[fading shard]

Why does team cherry hype hegemol up

just for us not to even see his corpse

We at least get the dignity of seeing dryass corpse why can't we meet hegemol

[stark ocean]

hes obviously the most cool looking great knight

[fading shard]

Dryaa was fierce and had a hard front

basically a tsundere

[near jasper]

Isma was not a lesbian

[crimson patio]

Isma is kind
That’s basically it

[fading shard]

She in fact is not a lesbian yes

[crimson patio]

We have no idea what she’s like in life, why she died

Like nothing

[fading shard]

a lot of people believe she had romantic tentions with ogrim

[crimson patio]

Not confirmed so imma leave that out

[fading shard]

it is indeed not confirmed

[stark ocean]

ogrims dialogue talks sweet of isma

[fading shard]

but it is a very popular belief

[fading shard]

he misses her

I mean her own dream nail dialogue is about ogrim

[crimson patio]

Yea and it’s a very popular belief that the hollow knight failed because it loves its father

When the game didn’t confirm that either

[fading shard]

"Isma... I miss.. I miss you..."

[stark ocean]

its essentially confirmed from pop end cutscene

[fading shard]

it's basically confirmed given what we see with the path of pain and the idea instilled

[dire lynx]

...Ogrim... there's no time...

[fading shard]

we get info about an idea instilled

[near jasper]

I mean pop cutscene+cut dream nail dialogue

[crimson patio]

You can try to bring it into #hk-lore and people will cook you to hell

Cuz what’s to say that’s what did it and not an amalgamation of multiple factors/experience

and don’t bring the cut contents in here it’s not canon

[fading shard]

I mean a lot of stuff got cut that's still canon

[crimson patio]

Like what

Cut contents arent canon

[fading shard]

the lore tablet talking about the pale kings disapearence in city of tears that got cut

and that is still canon

just without a lore tablet

[crimson patio]

Well the lore tablet talking about that is not canon
Cuz it’s a cut content

What else could it possibly mean

[fading shard]

The topic regarding it is canon though?

We know the pale king dipped

it's straight out confirmed by different sources just instead of a cool lore tablet in the city of tears

we get it said somewhere else

[crimson patio]

People had asked TC why the dream nail dialogues for THK was cut and they just said it doesn’t fit

So that’s that
Cut contents don’t make it into the game cuz they don’t align with the vision of the devs

[near jasper]

I feel like if the only emotion we see from thk before being infected is love for its father you can assume it had love for its father

[near jasper]

It doesnt fit because its giving too much emotion to a vessel that was nearly perfect

[crimson patio]

Assumption yet not outright stated

Headcanon

[crimson patio]

THK is very infected at that point, why wouldnt it have one when infected enemies all do? Cuz it doesn’t align with the devs’ vision

[near jasper]

Broken vessel

[crimson patio]

Broken vessel is
Dead dead

Not even its shade is there anymore

[near jasper]

Its infected and has no dream nail dialogue

[crimson patio]

Just the shell animated by infection blobs

[near jasper]

And the shadow creepers

[fading shard]

pretty sure team cherry just envisioned the vessels to have no dream nail dialogue

[crimson patio]

True that seems to be the intention

Regardless
I cannot say the reason THK failed is solely because of love it felt for its father

We don’t know what its life was like, or which idea instilled was the one that did it in

PoP cutscene shows the King’s feelings towards it but doesn’t really confirm that’s what corrupted THK

[near jasper]

Void stuff doesnt have dream nail dialogue, except collector And kingsmoulds which were most likely made with a mind

[stark ocean]

the pop thing could be just one of the things that corrupted thk

its perhaps more symbolic than literally meaning that was the one event that instilled an idea in thk

[fading shard]

I feel as though it's rather clear that the memory is supposed to represent the affection and love the Pale king possessed for the hollow knight even though he tried desperately not to

and given that the Pale king went out of his way to do such a crazy feat as sealing a metaphyiscal memory away with a lore tablet calling it a deep secret of his

it's clear it means a lot to him

so honestly the pop cutscene still holds weight even if it's not the reason the hollow knight wasn't pure

[crimson patio]

Right
And since it’s the king’s secret
It reflects the king’s mind and not THK’s

[near jasper]

It reflects the king's relation with thk

[fading shard]

listen I personally believe that the pale kings love and affection was what made the hollow knight unpure just as you do

but I'm not going to deny that there's other possibilities

and given that the pop cutscene is just confirmed to be a deep secret of the Pale kings that has to do with his affection and love to the hollow knight (no matter in what context)

[crimson patio]

In headcanon, I believe it just as much as the next guy
But there really isn’t much canon evidence to support it

[fading shard]

it still holds value either way

[fading shard]

also random silksong thing lore bit sal;fgmbazzg: The weavers

am I the only one who thinks Hornet should have adressed the weavers crimes

she is so trigger happy when it comes to her god lineage but she never once talks about what the weavers did

and I checked

even when the mask maker talked about them

she then just changed the topic to the citadel

[crimson patio]

Her mom is a weaver she has bias ok

[fading shard]

and her dad is the pale king

who canonically created the greatest kingdom in hollow knights universe

(there's several things suggeting this to be true)

and yet she likes to hate on him every chance she gets

[stark ocean]

what

[crimson patio]

He’s also god

[stark ocean]

we only know deeply about 2 kingdoms

(major ones)

[fading shard]

we know of pharloom, lands of storms, lands serene and city of steel

and those other ones are large terrains as well

[crimson patio]

Hornet probably have the rights to be critical about a god being more than a mortal

[fading shard]

and with respect hallownest is by many considered a fairy tale

[whole holly]

we don't know about quality of life of lands of storms, lands serene and city of steel

[fading shard]

yeah and the weavers locked up the weaver that spoke the truth that they aren't gods

[fading shard]

Every single faction knows of hallownest though

and all of them know of the pale king

hallownest was even said to have had a ton of immigrants and tourists

[whole holly]

so, that's pretty weak point

[near jasper]

Yeah do you know the uk and king of england

[whole holly]

same for pharloom

[fading shard]

???

are you talking about the pilgrims?

[near jasper]

Where do you think pilgrims come from

[whole holly]

Pilgrims visit pharloom

[crimson patio]

Hornet seems to have a certain degree of grievance with the “colonizer” instincts given to her by the pale lineage

Seems that’s more of a threat to her freedom as a person than whatever the weavers did

[fading shard]

I mean the pale king showed restrained to those instincts as well

so I don't get her issues

and by restraint I mean him not trying to take over other landmarks by force

given that the hive, mosskin, mantis tribe who rejected the Pale kings rule were doing just fine

[crimson patio]

Her issues is he gave her that gene and now she also has to constantly suppress it

[fading shard]

she shows the white lady a lot of grace unlike with him

[crimson patio]

Alongside all the shit he did like thinking he can use the void for his purposes

[fading shard]

even though she's the one that took over queens garden

[near jasper]

Already in their territory btw

[crimson patio]

Maybe cuz WL didn’t contribute to her genes

[fading shard]

The white lady stole the queens gardens by force before hallownest was even a thing (given the phrasing of the lore tablet)

[whole holly]

i would say Verdania was best kingdom during it's prime, culture seems most non-violent, with them mostly being defensive, while skarr are xenophobic, and karak are militarist/social darwinists

[crimson patio]

She has beef with her father specifically cuz she was born to him

And thus carry the pale instincts from him

[fading shard]

he did succesfully do that though

like some of his constructs failed

but we do know some worked to this day

besides he's the only person who succesfully created void life

sula tried and only had mindless void possessing a bunch of corpses

whilst he actually created loyal wingsmoulds

and the vessels

[near jasper]

I mean lifeblood can sustain itself in the abyss

[near jasper]

And shadow creepers and gloomsacs

[whole holly]

also void life is naturally created too

[whole holly]

Gargantuan Gloom and Shadow Charger too

[fading shard]

void life as is creatures made out of void

[fading shard]

that's........that's not void life

they aren't the collector

[crimson patio]

Look I appreciate the pale king glaze but I believe that Hornet has some degree of “I understand why you had to do what you did, doesn’t mean I approve of them” with PK when it comes to using the void/creating the vessels

It’s playing god, trying to make nature bend to your will

After all
She did consider the vessels her siblings

[whole holly]

you mentioned vague word, void life isn't solely used to describe what you mean

[fading shard]

life composed of void instead of one that was capable of living near it

and using it to a degree to it's own devices

[whole holly]

well he is only one that attempted to do such a thing with vessels and his moulds, Sula created void-possesed being which is more like Void Mass and Lost Lace/Garmond anyways

[fading shard]

my point exactly

and he succeeded

the hollow knight was loyal to him till the end

[twin dragon]

anything living near the void is probably barely alive

[fading shard]

and a bunch of the constructs didn't break

[whole holly]

we can't compare him at all if we don't know ones that failed... though

[twin dragon]

if its in contact with it

[crimson patio]

I’m not sure if that’s because it was void or something else

[near jasper]

1 kingsmould in basin

And the vessels

[fading shard]

the kingsmoulds and wingsmoulds existed?

to a far larger margin though

[near jasper]

They broke

[fading shard]

we see several wingsmoulds

in the white palace

[crimson patio]

3 functional kingsmoulds in the dream

[near jasper]

In a dream

[crimson patio]

(The rest of them are lwk dead)

[whole holly]

point is we don't know of unsuccessful attempts to create beings are comprised of Void

[fading shard]

the white palace in the dream realm is the real white palace

it's talked about how he transferred his most loyal subjects and his palace somewhere

by both the hunter's journal

[crimson patio]

I still think there’s some kind of time discrepancy in the dream realm cuz there’s no shot the palace attendants lived this long

[fading shard]

and some other mentions

[fading shard]

I do agree

[whole holly]

that's false

[fading shard]

we see a ton of wingsmoulds

existing

[near jasper]

We dont know how long theyve been there and this is a memory/dream so its not like they would break if you waited in there enough

[whole holly]

i mean fact that they didn't break is false for vessels and kingsmoulds, not sure how wingsmoulds change that...

[fading shard]

can you please elaborate nika

Because I do wanna reply to your message but I want to make sure I'm at the same page as you

[near jasper]

Vessels didnt work in the first place and every kingsmould left outside the Dream Is dead

[whole holly]

you made false statement about pale king's constructs not breaking

[fading shard]

the vessels weren't fully hollow yes

but by all intents and purposes they were still succesful void entities

[whole holly]

exactly, i wonder why absolom didn't create Servitors using void, probably because void isn't as good as pale king leads you to believe

[near jasper]

You can put void in a shell and itll live

[whole holly]

what are their intents and purposes, because i would argue being truly hollow is one of them

[near jasper]

Thats not too impressive

[fading shard]

I feel as though it was rather obvious that they knew not as much regarding void

[whole holly]

i consider crystal golems and cogwork bugs more impressive

[whole holly]

i mean Absolom stored void in jars, Shamans are fixated it, pale king is only one that created something from it, Steel masters seem to control it's usage altogether, i think there is lesson to be learned here

[fading shard]

do you consider some of the kingsmoulds dying as them breaking

[near jasper]

How did absoloms mummy keep soul inside it with two massive cracks and a void ocean right near it

[fading shard]

I didn't say there weren't some that wee rejects

[whole holly]

what did you consider them breaking, in your words?

[near jasper]

I dont think constructs are meant to die of old age

[fading shard]

the collector

[whole holly]

it's weird right??

[fading shard]

what

[whole holly]

lol, Collector simply seems to be escaped void being

[whole holly]

what are you confused about???

[fading shard]

the collector is clearly a failed kingsmould

he has the same build

[fading shard]

we have been showcased that there are no natural void beings

[near jasper]

Theres nothing wrong with him we can pinpoint

[whole holly]

we see unfinished void construct, it could have been collector, who knows

[near jasper]

Shadow charger

[fading shard]

that's not a void being

[whole holly]

it's useless to argue about this, but Void given form/void tendrils are natural

[near jasper]

What is it

[fading shard]

"Bulky worm of the deepest depths. Lives in tight crevices and uses its weighty body to batter."

it's a worm

[near jasper]

A bug that doesnt eat or sleep and spills out void when killed

Awfully void beingny dont you think?

[fading shard]

"They seem such simple bugs."

[near jasper]

Yes

They look simple

[fading shard]

"bugs"

[near jasper]

Seem

And whats said right after

[whole holly]

this absolutely is void being, since it contains void inside it's body : https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Gargant_Gloom

[whole holly]

this is simply wrong

[crimson patio]

I’m personally choosing to believe that creatures in the void are just normal bugs that adapted to live near void, so far removed from its closest ancestors

[fading shard]

aren't they stated to be such

[crimson patio]

Not outright

[near jasper]

Not really

[whole holly]

what about Void tendrils?

[crimson patio]

Those are just straight up void

[whole holly]

i mean yeah but they are still void beings in a way

[fading shard]

no they aren'

[whole holly]

gargant gloom also contains void straight up

[fading shard]

tthey are said not to be beings

[near jasper]

Where?

[fading shard]

"ashing fragments of pure darkness, shaped into sharpened tentacles."

[whole holly]

wiki disagrees and has evidences : https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Void#Void_beings_without_exterior

[crimson patio]

Idk if it’s any more “being” than the void itself

[near jasper]

Thats not saying its not a Being

[whole holly]

what is being and what disqualifies void, though

[crimson patio]

Just the void in a different shape

[whole holly]

void has fragmented will it seems

[near jasper]

Void tendrils also can react to sound so theyre very much alive

[fading shard]

that's no???

[fading shard]

that's literally not the case T_T

void senses things with soul

and attacks it

hornet states as such

that's the void reacting to beings comprised of soul

[whole holly]

i am referring to it's nature, without being unified, wdym?

[near jasper]

"Void Tendrils will become agitated and begin thrashing for varying durations in response to various things:
[...]
If Hornet hard lands near to them."

[fading shard]

because they can sense her soul

the game literally states that it's because the void senses soul

[near jasper]

Where

[fading shard]

give me 30 seconds

[near jasper]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1402002414630076607/1489516443245744249/rapidsave.com_sj6kixskkssg1.gif

[whole holly]

i kinda wish we got tribe that existed near void, sentient tribe that still exists today

[fading shard]

"...It is the void, stretched up into this world and its husks. I know it well, that force, its nature. If it senses soul, it will drive voracious towards it."

[near jasper]

I feel like sensing things is also a sign of being alive

[fading shard]

void is said not to be alive

literally

wdym T_T

it's the power opposed to soul

it's literally said the ancient civilization worshipped no power or lord

and they even said no sense no will shade

not "void squirming alive

[crimson patio]

Well
In any case.

I personally believe that void creatures are things adapted to living near void

And things made of void are “void beings”

So tendrils falls into the void being category

[fading shard]

thank you

[fading shard]

it's not a void being though

[crimson patio]

And thus, yes, is natural

[fading shard]

it's literally just a void fragment

it's not alive

[crimson patio]

It’s the form the void chose to take

[fading shard]

it's the voids reaction to soul

it's not alive

[near jasper]

It reacts to the Knight with void tendrils

[crimson patio]

Idk what to tell you when the void chose to have that tendril shape

[fading shard]

"They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself.""

[crimson patio]

That’s a decision

[fading shard]

cause it has soul

the shell has soul

it's literally been showcased that's the case

[near jasper]

Theres void in the shell

If there was soul it would have been consumed

[fading shard]

"...No will... No self... Shade...""

[fading shard]

this is a arcane egg descriptions

about freaking void

what more direct "it has no will" do you need

if it's said the ancient civilization who worshipped the void, worshipped no thing

and they state it has no self or will

[crimson patio]

Ok in this regard, I think the pale shell is what keeps the void inside at bay
So the soul and void in the vessels continuously oppose each other to stabilize their form

[whole holly]

will has many meanings

[whole holly]

knight is also stated to have no soul

[fading shard]

you just said that void has fragmentso f will

[fading shard]

when

we know the hollow knight has soul

in it's shell

[crimson patio]

Anyway.

Void tendrils is a form it chose to take

[whole holly]

i don't remember somewhere

[fading shard]

I gave sources whre they state my claims

I expect you do the same

[crimson patio]

The void isn’t without will as PK thought it was
PK’s misunderstanding of the void is what led to his plan failing in the first place

No vessels can be pure because the void itself isn’t

[fading shard]

he ancient civilization

states it has no will

[whole holly]

don't be hostile i am trying to find it... but it is stated

[fading shard]

not the pk

there's literal lore tablet

where teh ancient civilization states to cleanse them

and remove their self

wdym balwkwy

[near jasper]

And they went extinct

[crimson patio]

Yea and him going off of the misinformation that some ancient bugs said also make his understanding of it flawed

[fading shard]

"Erase our fear,
Eliminate our desire,
To suffer no more,
Void, cleanse us."

[crimson patio]

Why did you think the plan failed
What is the moral of this story

There is no hollow knight

[fading shard]

.......Are we trying to argue that the one sentient civilization next to the void is wrong

[crimson patio]

Yea

It knows as much about the void as we do

It cannot communicate to the void directly

[fading shard]

then why are assuming the void doesn't have a lord in that case

[crimson patio]

It just knows the void erases everything and it wanted to be cleansed of everything

[fading shard]

if we're going to ignore the in game statements

the game states the void had no lord

if we're going to argue otherwise

[crimson patio]

Yea the void has no lord

[fading shard]

to the in game statements

[crimson patio]

It’s a thing

[fading shard]

It clearly does

since the game lies to us

[crimson patio]

Not in history it didnt

[fading shard]

apparently

[crimson patio]

Not until the knight came and unite it

[fading shard]

apparently the game just lies to us with relics

[fading shard]

clearly the void had more lords

[near jasper]

The void has no lord because we see its first lord be created

[fading shard]

since you're arguing against the game itsel

and a relic

you're arguing against a relic that's supposed to give us info

[whole holly]

if it actually did that and was accurate shades wouldn't have fragmented will

[fading shard]

Yes the shades have some will

they are literal failures

[crimson patio]

Yea the void idols are just what ancient bugs used to worship the void

Void has no form
So it is common for worshippers to make idols of things they don’t know the shape of by making it tf up from their own shape

[fading shard]

deemed by the pale king

[fading shard]

we literally see in the abyss they know of the void tendrals

[near jasper]

All of them

[fading shard]

wdym

[whole holly]

so, void's nature is overestimated then and misrepresented and disproves tablets

[crimson patio]

See: whatever the pale king’s idol is

They rarely see him in person so they made it to worship him
And ofc got it wrong

[crimson patio]

I mean the shape of the void idols

Does not depict a “lord of shade”
Contrary to what I’ve seen some people say

[stray fog]

Yeah void has a will

[whole holly]

Steel Soul Jinn state it : ...Is It... here, waking Jinn?..

Observed... Small. Dull. No Soul. Long shadow... It is blank, but brave...
Does it bring offering?
Jinn, has only many small, shiny things... useless to Jinn, but will trade for wonderful gift.

[fading shard]

alright fair enough

[whole holly]

thank you, i would describe it as traits or nature since game likes that

[whole holly]

thank you for accepting evidence i guess

[near jasper]

Unrelated

[whole holly]

??

[stray fog]

Void tendrils are the form that void itself chooses
So a will seems to be a characteristic of all void

[near jasper]

But its weird how much soul is just left by the void masses when you enter styx's room in act 3

[whole holly]

well yeah

[fading shard]

hornet states that

so what the ancient civilization states is wrong

but what hornet states is right?

Why are we pick and choosing different statements and what we should say is false

we literally ignore entire relics

and statements by the ancient civilization

[stray fog]

It could be outdated

They wrote the tablet
Then they became shades
Now shades can't update the knowledge on the tablets

[crimson patio]

Well
The PK followed AC’s knowledge on the void and his plan failed
So it’s kinda hard to believe they were correct about the void either

Like sure they def knows things about the void, but not all of it, just like PK did

[fading shard]

if that's what you guys believe then okay

[stray fog]

The game itself also mentioned void having a will
(like the coidheart item description)

[fading shard]

no

it says that the bearers will

unites the void

not that the void has a will

the game states that the charm allows the bearers will to unite the void

it's supposed to serve as evidence that the knight isn't hollow

[stray fog]

True

[stray grove]

No? PK did his own research and arrived at a similar but different conclusion

[near jasper]

There Are relics that Are wrong

"And lo, is eternity sustained. By Architect's claw, we welcome that final form, of dial and rotor, and soul gladly given.

The perfect, unfaltering voice."

[stray fog]

Then we could also say that the AC's tablets about "no will" are about shades, and not void itself

[near jasper]

Ancient civilization

[stray grove]

Shades didn’t exist in AC times

[near jasper]

The people who worshipped void

[stray fog]

They wrote a tablet about shades

[stray grove]

But that doesn’t refer to the HK Shades

[near jasper]

Yeah

And pharloom

[stray grove]

Shade is just a description of Void, which is often described using terms like shadow, darkness, absence etc

[near jasper]

And everyone basically

[fading shard]

anyhow I said my piece if you guys want to disagree with the lore tablets, relics and hunter's journals statements and only choose a select few that go along your narrative then that's fine so I'll just say let's agree to disagree

[near jasper]

We dont know but probably not

[fading shard]

and agree that we're all cool people, and one anothers opinions don't change our views on one another but we still disagree

[stray grove]

AC were advanced

[whole holly]

dude i provided you evidence but with your own logic and evidence you provided are proven wrong in real like, AC's and PK's conclusion is disproved by Vessels not being truly hollow, and having will as well as mind, also even Shades having will, so yeah

[stray fog]

The shadow cloak statue also talks about a "lord of shades"
So it has to know what a shade is

[near jasper]

Ac is probably not as advanced as either kingdom we meet considering only a single building and a few tablets survived the test of time

[stray grove]

Shade is just a description of Void, which is often described using terms like shadow, darkness, absence etc
HK Shades are the Void component of Vessels, Vessels did not exist in AC times so Shades did not exist

[near jasper]

Idk man

[near jasper]

One ancient of time

[fading shard]

shade is also used a term for just the void itself

they also use the term such as shadow and the darkness itself

[stray fog]

If it was describing darkness with the word "shade", why would it say "shades" plural

Lord of darknesses

[stray grove]

:/

[fading shard]

I feel as though saying lord of shade

doesn't sound as cool as lord of shades

[limpid summit]

Return of the king talking nonsense what else is new

[stray grove]

It’s obviously also a meta reference

[whole holly]

lol, you are guilty of that too sometimes

[near jasper]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1402002414630076607/1489516443245744249/rapidsave.com_sj6kixskkssg1.gif

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/lebron-james-scared-scary-flop-gif-8576938341887257950

[stray fog]

Why is everyone beefing

[whole holly]

well we all are

[limpid summit]

Well me and rotk are very good friends

[crimson patio]

Well
The AC statue is able to update itself
So I imagine it has knowledge of the current time
Where shades exist

[fading shard]

I feel as though saying that is if though you and others aren't guilty of that too isn't fair, especially since it can be subjective based onwhat one believes

[whole holly]

i was trying to make a harmless joke but it didn't land

[stray fog]

Oh

[fading shard]

I did not read this

[whole holly]

i did say that we all are

[crimson patio]

Yea you saw some floating around in the abyss trying to cook you

[whole holly]

it's okay, all of our experiences are subjective

[near jasper]

Its weird how much silk is still on styx's room after 2 void masses start trying to consume silk

[stray fog]

True

[fading shard]

those were of our siblings

[limpid summit]

“Shades” as imprints might have exists in AC time in some shape fashion or form but it’s probably as dhruv said just something to sound cool

[fading shard]

specifically a pale king creation

[stray fog]

Someone else said that actually

[crimson patio]

Well
Yea

What is the point again

[near jasper]

What void tastes like

👍

[whole holly]

it's probably like petroleum

[stray fog]

Tasteless cold sharp

[whole holly]

duality of man:

[stray grove]

AC had a pretty advanced knowledge of Soul having crafted shit like the Soul Totems, Ancient Masks, Soul Vessels etc.
They also managed to rule over the entire region for a significant length of time which would have required them to be pretty stable and even spread into distant kingdoms like Pharloom
Their architecture is complex and includes Shade Gates
They could manipulate the Void to some degree, a notable example being Sharp Shadow
They also had the means to create mental barriers like the one seen on the Shade Beast
They also had an advanced metalworking scene (not as advanced as Pharloom’s) given the existence of the Ancient Nailsmith
The list can go on

[stray fog]

They also had advanced storage tech (arcane eggs)

[stray grove]

Really if it’s a question of who was “more” advanced there’s not really an obvious answer Pharloom Hallownest and AC were all advanced in different ways

[whole holly]

they also created some spell in abyss shriek room that merged with our own spell

[crimson patio]

Hornet when she knew about 2 entities who used the void’s power and died out: yea no snail shaman can you not

[stray grove]

But AC definitely had a pretty high tech level and a lot of their knowledge hasn’t been reverse engineered yet

[whole holly]

yeah, quality of life is probably best measurement, which hallownest wins

[stray grove]

Most of their knowledge is also inaccessible

[foggy stratus]

AC had some fancy soul and Void stuff, Pharloom had clankers and Hallownest had a functioning society.

[limpid summit]

A void seal is something major that no one else has ever done

[crimson patio]

Wasn’t the only thing reverse engineered the soul totems

[stray fog]

Is qol a good measure of technology?

[stray grove]

We don’t really know how that works

[whole holly]

how it impacts general population, maybe yeah, in my opinion

[stray grove]

But PK was able to move Shade Gates and reverse engineered (or independently created) Soul Totems