sk-lore

[floral quiver]

I would've loved that fight

[light verge]

I wont say what not to take with a grain of salt, but it’s down to personal preference. I wasn’t convinced by your argument is all, not something I’d put in a lore YouTube video

[limpid summit]

Same way the Rad fight was a fight between two higher beings but Rad shoots slow lasers at us for gameplay

[spark valve]

is chat struggling with the concept of fantasy swordfighting

[limpid summit]

G-a-m-e-play

[cedar topaz]

Is that the part that's in A major? (idk if you know music, the part that's in a different key signature)

[foggy stratus]

Dude, your entire argument is based solely off of one animation. It is beyond flimsy especially when text in game can be used against it.

[limpid summit]

Pure vessel is a bad sword fighter because it winds up as an attack window before it swings leaving itself open

[spark valve]

oh so just ragebait

nobody is that stupid

[limpid summit]

True

It’s working though

I like PV

[eternal gazelle]

I'm gonna assume yes?

[cedar topaz]

The part of the song that starts right after the void tidal waves or whatever they're called

[eternal gazelle]

yes

[floral quiver]

It's not the windup. It's the animation used for the windup.

That's my problem. Because it takes a fighter that's supposed to be badass and makes them less so.

To me specifically.

[lyric rose]

But it’s so fast that you still get hit by it

[foggy stratus]

Yet you defend two other sword fighters who are meant to be super skilled who have big wind ups and own who's actively said to use their nail like a fucking clu.

[gentle aspen]

😐

can we drop this

its clearly not lore

[limpid summit]

That’s fair, but game devs have to make sacrifices to ensure good gameplay. Trust the dialogue, watch fan animations, have fun playing

Yes we can drop it

[floral quiver]

They don't. Their windups are faster than the PV's. And their windups also involve them not leaving their guards open in their animations.

That they don't move to intercept is immaterial to my preference because them having good positioning implies they could.

[foggy stratus]

Yet they don't. Their animations leave them open. As such they're not good sword users by your logic. But wanna know something? Its just game design! That's why! PV isnt a bad sword user over one single animation.

[spark valve]

no serious person needs to be told that practical swordfighting in a fantasy game isn't necessary to be diegetically hypercompetent

but joker said to drop it

[sinful nimbus]

OK but PV should've used a spear

[spark valve]

well yeah

spears are cool

[foggy stratus]

Or had a shield.

[sinful nimbus]

Because spears are 100% better than swords all the time not a single exception no one used swords back in the day

[spark valve]

no they could be used as sidearms if you lose your spear

hornet's form is actually comically bad

it's like tc didn't consult with ANY HEMA experts for their silly bug game

[gentle aspen]

well in magic HK land nail lances are for frauds

[limpid summit]

Considering Hornet Sentinel it’s crazy that Hornet considers Vespa a good teacher

Is that it

[spark valve]

bro is throwing shade at mantis lords for some reason

[foggy stratus]

Except Mantis Lords, my goats.

[lyric rose]

That nail feels like a spear sometimes

[foggy stratus]

[half horizon]

Yo, what kind of thing is Skynx? He doesn't have a shell, and he eats or uses silk eaters. He is clearly not a normal bug

[near jasper]

Nosk

Prob

[light verge]

It’s kinda impossible to tell, we don’t have really anything on the guy other than he doesn’t have needolin dialogue (in game)

I’d take a peak at the wiki, he does have cut needolin dialogue though

[near jasper]

"I shall not be?...
No more me?...
Sweet little thingssss...
To feed... To swell...
To cleanssse."

[light verge]

it’s real interesting that stynx seems to take characteristics from other bugs, like his reused voice lines or the fact he has the same elongated s’ pronunciations like styx

[near jasper]

Why does he keep a speech quirk into needolin dialogue

No one else does

[light verge]

Does styx?

[near jasper]

No

[light verge]

it might be because it’s cut

I wouldn’t take stynx dialogue whole heartedly

[near jasper]

They had to know their own rules by the middle of steel soul development right?

[light verge]

It could of been a late change to not have the characters use their pronunciations

too speculative to know imo

[near jasper]

I wish we got the 2nd silkeater farm upgrade I want more styx lore

[light verge]

Savin it for hard mode DLC ofc ofc

[half horizon]

I mean, Skynx's dialogue is to vague and dry to give us enough information to infer anything about them, and I can't see how they would include lore about them in the upcoming dlc, but I assume he might be related to the huntress and Styx

[near jasper]

Styx and huntress arent that related outside the mask

[light verge]

I think there’s an argument to be made about their shells outside of the mask

[half horizon]

I mean, yeah, but it looks like they are the same species

[near jasper]

Have you seen the mask room?

[half horizon]

Mask room? Where is that? I can't recall a place like that in silk song

[light verge]

we also don’t know who the father (or if there is one) to Huntress’ brood. This would need some more thinking gone into it but the runt’s appearance has some semblance to Styx imo

[near jasper]

Silk soar into styx

[half horizon]

Yo I didn't know you could do that 😭

[near jasper]

-# skill issue

[light verge]

Huntress also has elongated ssssss right?

[half horizon]

Yo, I think I haven't been there since I started act 3 in my steel soul run 💀

[near jasper]

Yes

[half horizon]

Yes

[marble oasis]

The faces are similar but the horns are quite different

[near jasper]

Styx and huntress arent the same species

[near jasper]

Also the wing/cloak

[light verge]

I was thinking more the body of the runt being similar to styx’

[half horizon]

Sexual dimorphism?

[near jasper]

And styx has a larger neck

[light verge]

runt has this neckpiece thing that styx has

[near jasper]

And a full extra pair of limbs

[half horizon]

And they have the same shell pattern

[half horizon]

Maybe she lost a pair of limbs idk

[near jasper]

Play the needolin there :)

If we rule out the mask since styx can change them, all thats really left of the similarities is a segmented body

[half horizon]

Yo ngl I can imagine a huge human hand dismembering the huntress just for fun

[near jasper]

Which is also slightly different in the segmentation

As huntress's segments arent divided by straight lines

And ig the claws

[floral quiver]

Okay I have to admit that Huntress and Styx just coincidentally looking similar but not actually being related amuses me and is now headcanon.

[near jasper]

And they look up while singing

Which is not that rare

[half horizon]

I think almost every bug does that

[near jasper]

Yeah basically

[floral quiver]

Hold on. Runt and Styx have similar necks

They both have the kind of mantle looking thing

[near jasper]

Im pretty sure styx's are wings

[half horizon]

Yea

But we could argue styx is naked while the huntress is not

[floral quiver]

We also could consider sexual dimorphism

[half horizon]

The huntress is also in a very precarious state when we meet her for the first time

[half horizon]

That's one of the things I mentioned earlier as well

[floral quiver]

Also, do we ever see Styx's front or Huntress's back?

[half horizon]

Btw she is literally resting on a pile of corpses, how tf is she out of food for her offspring 😭

[near jasper]

Yes

[floral quiver]

Gotcha!

[floral quiver]

The shells have been cleaned out

[floral quiver]

There's no meat inside

Much obliged!

I remembered the corpse just not if it was prone or supine

[near jasper]

Also one thing about the sexual dimorphism thing , runt is a girl if assuming the translators are correct

[floral quiver]

I'm almost positive they're intended to be the same species.

[floral quiver]

Huh, neat!

[near jasper]

Which i assume is probably right since every translation agrees on it

[light verge]

wait what the heck is up with that sprite

[near jasper]

Which?

[floral quiver]

The corpse?

[light verge]

The corpse, I know you can’t see it in game but where’s his neck

[floral quiver]

Gone

[near jasper]

Skynx ate it

[light verge]

it just goes to his mask

“Mask”

[near jasper]

Skynx took the mask

[low moon]

Hmm

U might have a point

[light verge]

Doesn’t he have multiple of that one or am I hallucinating

[floral quiver]

And the head under

[near jasper]

Yes

[near jasper]

Lemme check

[floral quiver]

He does

[low moon]

Wait is skynx the capitalist bum in steel soul

[floral quiver]

Has a whole secret room

[near jasper]

Yes

[near jasper]

Yes

[low moon]

Is that the guy

Ok

[near jasper]

Styx's mask is probably from huntress' species

[swift needle]

SKYX IS NOSK THEORY

[near jasper]

Prob

[swift needle]

I was then shot 47 times

[floral quiver]

Pretty common theory

Probably true

[near jasper]

Prob

[floral quiver]

I like that Styx's mask becomes a spooky ghost when worn upside down in the dark behind a rock.

[marble oasis]

Broke: Skynx is a Nosk
Woke: Styx is a Nosk
Bespoke: Huntress is a Nosk

[swift needle]

Upside down... upside down knight mask... OMG ITS ALL CONNECTED SILKSONGS A SEQUEL TO HOLLOW KNIGHT 🥺 🥺 🥺

[near jasper]

:)

[swift needle]

WAIT

YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE THIS SOUNDS SIMILAR TO

NOSK SCREAMING

😱

[near jasper]

Muckroach

Skynx is styx's child with even worse mental illnesses

I wish they kept the original queens egg quest(s) so I could have more styx and silkeater lore

[floral quiver]

Skynx is actually the size of Runt, but is just sitting on a high ledge.

[near jasper]

Skynx is clearly void

[foggy stratus]

Godly neck strength.

[floral quiver]

Nah, see, the little thing uses the horns as bracing legs

[near jasper]

Silkeaters are weird

[foggy stratus]

Nah, really?

[near jasper]

How do they form colonies in an enviroment that doesnt naturally exist outside gms' house

How can they just eat soul Without issues

Why is the silk outside the cocoons in their rooms soulless

[near jasper]

This also goes for styx who eats them

[foggy stratus]

They're like cows with like 17 stomachs.

[marble oasis]

Soul is in everything you eat

[near jasper]

Widow checking for silkeaters in lace's hair like a mom checking for lice

[marble oasis]

Hunter loves the taste of meat with Soul still in it

[foggy stratus]

Only if its fresh iirc.

[marble oasis]

Who’s eating old meat

[foggy stratus]

A lot of people.

[near jasper]

Except the crest corpses but theyre also kinda weird

[foggy stratus]

Beef jerky.

[near jasper]

Is binding living people a warcrime

[foggy stratus]

I don't think so?

I don't have the geneva convention memorized.

And I'm the local war criminal.

[near jasper]

Last judge's door nearly fully complies with osha except a single thing

[marble oasis]

In the HK universe fool

[near jasper]

This is to reflect the citadels great ethics

[foggy stratus]

I still stand by beef jerky.

[near jasper]

Roach jerky

[marble oasis]

If it’s reprehensible, it’s just a regular crime against humanity

Since Hornet is not at war

[marble oasis]

bugkind

[near jasper]

Hornet is a war

[foggy stratus]

And clearly the Hunter has eaten old meat to know fresh meat tastes better.

[floral quiver]

As the last living monarch of Hallownest and Deepnest, Hornet can be at war whenever and with whoever she damn well pleases. 🙂

[marble oasis]

Yeah but I mean you don’t eat old meat if you can help it

[foggy stratus]

WL is still alive.

[marble oasis]

1. not how that works
2. she’s not queen of hallownest

she very explicitly declined the role

[foggy stratus]

Technically TK is alive and Technically would be king via the King's Brand.

[near jasper]

Zote has a very high chance of being the next person to get kings brand from the knights shell

[marble oasis]

The Brand is only on its Shell, which it discarded

[foggy stratus]

If i got a tattoo saying I'm king and then I shed my skin would I no longer be king?

[floral quiver]

1 depends on if Hallownest has a parliament that can constrain the monarchs ability to declare war.

And true! She's much happier as a wandering hero anyway

[near jasper]

Why didnt hornet just take kings brand from the shell, Are she stupid s?

[marble oasis]

When she goes to fight in Pharloom the beasts of Deepnest don’t follow her

personal beef from the ruler does not constitute a war

They are at war with the Mantises though

[floral quiver]

She doesnt want to rule, and she's the kind of person who would take the Kingsbrand seriously as a sign of rulership

[floral quiver]

It does in most medieval monarchies.

Personal beef is how the big wars between England and France happened.

Now if a king's nobles didn't follow them to war, then they'd be at a big disadvantage, but there was not much stopping a king (or at least an English king) from saying "I'm at war, send your money and soldiers".

At least until parliament was created, and that didn't stop a king directly so much as say "If you go to war, we aren't paying for it!"

[near jasper]

Kings brand might also be slightly magical which she does not want to deal with

[floral quiver]

This too yes

[marble oasis]

It’s possible that it only recognises Vessels, but I personally doubt that

She says “the mark it would grant to one like you”

but i read that as vessels can get it not only vessels can get it

[floral quiver]

Looking at the dialogue, can't find this.

[marble oasis]

city of tears

[random harbor]

Hornet - General - City of Tears

Again we meet little ghost.
I'm normally quite perceptive. You I underestimated, though I've since guessed the truth.
You've seen beyond this kingdom's bounds. Yours is resilience born of two voids.
It's no surprise then you've managed to reach the heart of this world. In so doing, you shall know the sacrifice that keeps it standing.
If, knowing that truth, you'd still attempt a role in Hallownest's perpetuation, seek the Grave in Ash and the mark it would grant to one like you.

@zorinus used /npcs wanderers name: Hornet category: General dialogue: City of Tears

[floral quiver]

Aah, thanks

[near jasper]

Wait I just noticed something

[floral quiver]

Hollow Knight is just way more... Soulsy than Silksong.

Like, in the sense that the Knight is a very specific thing, like the Tarnished or the Chosen Undead.

Hornet in Silksong is way more of a classical hero, by which I mean her being the hero was basically coincidence.

[near jasper]

Techinically zote hasnt failed any precepts when fighting us

[robust wagon]

"One foe one blow"
"Do not let them laugh at you"

[near jasper]

Techinically he never does damage so 0 blows

[robust wagon]

But he does hit you

[foggy stratus]

Each strike is a blow.

[near jasper]

If you push someone is that a blow

[foggy stratus]

Yes.

[floral quiver]

Technically, yeah

[foggy stratus]

He smacks you.

[near jasper]

Zote actually identified the knight has no weak points, like himself, and thus did not give a true attempt at the fight

Trust

:)

[narrow horizon]

I feel like letting yourself act weak to an opponent is against a precept

and he still breaks "do not let them laugh at you"

[near jasper]

We dont know what zote did to the colloseum audience before leaving to dirtmouth

[narrow horizon]

the same audience is still there after the fact, and he does absolutely nothing to them in the moment, even after waiting a while

[near jasper]

We dont know if he did anything to them after the match ends

[limpid summit]

Imo that’s like

It’s a brand

I feel like it would burn a normal bugs face off

Pale shell strong

[marble oasis]

Hornet has a pale shell

[limpid summit]

Yeah but she wouldn’t take it

It’s a metaphorical burden too

Honestly like

Is it just supposed to be the burden of knowing the sacrifice

That was always weird to me

Not like TK is actually ruling

[near jasper]

The burden is now random rich people will mistake you for ok for 2 seconds

[floral quiver]

Neat thing: The Citadel controls 64% of the land visited in Pharloom, whether directly, through diplomacy, through conquest or by fealty.

[trim flame]

Pharloom is kinda like a very big city state

[floral quiver]

Mhm.

[trim flame]

What lore are you cooking

[floral quiver]

The places the Citadel doesnt control are places like Hunter's March, the Wisp thicket, Bilewater (at least by the point of game start) and Mount Fay. Basically the border regions and relatively small parts of Pharloom without things the Citadel would find useful.

[trim flame]

Hunter march is under the hauntings influence

No?

[floral quiver]

It's very different from Hallownest where there was a solid distinction between what was "Hallownest proper/the Kingdom of Hallownest" and "kingdoms that were seperate but neighbors to Hallownest"

[floral quiver]

It is, but the ants of the Marches didn't pledge fealty to the Citadel like Greymoor and Deep Docks do as examples.

[trim flame]

So basically like deepnest

[floral quiver]

Yes, but looking at the positioning of the Marches and how the Far Fields seem to have been under nominal Citadel control, the Skarr, while still an extent polity, seem to have been contained.

[floral quiver]

Hallownest the kingdom only controlled 17% of Hallownest the physical collection of kingdoms. 23% depending on if the Forgotten Crossroads are considered "Part of Hallownest the kingdom" or as is implied by the name, a border region between the different kingdoms. I could see it either way, though the use of "Kingdom" when talking about a region with multiple extent and culturally distinct polities is a bit annoying.

[dire lynx]

peaks, resting grounds, waterways, city of tears, ancient basin, crossroads, queens gardens, fog canyon

[marble oasis]

are we talking area or number of locations

[floral quiver]

Number of locations.

[marble oasis]

so that’s kind of a silly metric and also you miscounted

[floral quiver]

What'd I miss?

[marble oasis]

11/16 if you don’t count KE

[marble oasis]

Cliffs, dirtmouth, crossroads, peak, canyon, gardens, city, grounds, waterways, basin, abyss

If you consider dirtmouth part of FC and abyss part of Basin I guess it’s 9/14

plus treaties with the shrooms, mantises, mosskin, and weavers i.e. every other group

[floral quiver]

My thing comparing Hallownest and Pharloom is that large parts of Pharloom's map were directly controlled by or have fealty to the Citadel, while the kingdoms of Hallownest are actively seperate polities both culturally and politically and I find the difference neat.

I was attempting to use the nominal direct control both polities have over their maps to illustrate this.

[dire lynx]

everything we listed follow the same culture and laws as the rest of the pale kings kingdom

[floral quiver]

I don't contest that?

[dire lynx]

then what are you trying to say? this means pretty much nothing

[floral quiver]

That a large chunk of Pharloom owed fealty or was controlled by the Citadel, it lacks extent neighboring polities, while Hallownest does have polities it has made war and treaty with. Hallownest's neighbors didn't owe fealty to the City of Tears as they were seperate polities.

And I find that neat

[dire lynx]

pharloom still had the craws, thicket, shellwood and hunters march/far fields, as well as the wild areas like the marrow and mt fay

[marble oasis]

The Citadel is not comparable to the City alone

You have things like the Vaults which are not for public eyes, making them the same as the Archives

[dire lynx]

the pale kings hallownest is alot more than city of tears

[floral quiver]

I counted the Citadel as one point, rather than use the sub areas of the Citadel as seperate areas.

[marble oasis]

Then the Citadel is equivalent to the executive “State” of Hallownest

We are comparing apples to oranges

[dire lynx]

hallownest had greenpath, the hive, the shrooms, mantises and deepnest as its neighbours

they are much the same

[marble oasis]

Deep Docks is the Peak, Crossroads is the Pilgrim’s Way, the City is the Chambers, the Palace is the Cradle

[dire lynx]

pilgrims way?

isnt that the name of the path from dirtmouth to city through fungal and greenpath?

[floral quiver]

The difference is that the areas that the Citadel doesnt control are mostly frontier regions, rather than other kingdoms. The Citadel has two neighbors that could charitably be called polities, that being the Stiltkin of Bilewater and the Skarr of Hunter's March.

Compare that to Deepnest, The Hive, Greenpath, and The Mantis's

[marble oasis]

What do we call the path the pilgrims take up to the citadel then

You’re right but I can’t remember the silksong one

[dire lynx]

could we call it pharlooms ascent?

[marble oasis]

Karak? Verdania? Shellwood is like almost 1:1 with Greenpath in that they reached an agreement with the local god to let people pass through

[floral quiver]

Karak and Verdania have been long dead. Why would I include them?

[dire lynx]

i would call neither of those polities of the citadel, they activley resist/dispise it

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[dire lynx]

its also stilkin, not stiltkin

[floral quiver]

I specifically didnt include them because they're anti-Citadel.

[dire lynx]

misread

mb

[floral quiver]

It's cool!

[dire lynx]

but there is also still shellwood and the craws which you ignored

[floral quiver]

The Craws are a seperate group, but they're in a territory that owes fealty to the Citadel, and called out as scavengers rather than a polity like Deepnest or the Mantis.

Shellwood is one of the places the Citadel effectively won through bargaining. It's similar to Greenpath but distinct in that Greenpath is a kingdom and has a distinct culture, Greenpathers write things to each other, while Shellwood is less a polity and more a direct extension of Nyleth.

[dire lynx]

the splinters control shellwood and have a seperate culture

and the craw lake is still a separate part of greymoor, its like saying the mantises serve the mushrooms simply becuase they are in the wastes

[floral quiver]

Have we seen writing from them?

Genuinely curious

[dire lynx]

does a culture need to write to own territory?

no

[floral quiver]

Well, no, but I'm confused why you're giving culture to Sister Splinter and her brood, when there's not all that to imply such, unlike the bugs of Greenpath who do have an implied culture.

[dire lynx]

sister splinter
"Children, children, hide and strike!
This land is ours, now!
By our claws, none but us now!
Sisters, sisters, so long gone!
Other, other, sleeping deep...
Creeping, creaking..."

regular splinters
"Brother, brother, time to play!
Sister, sister, your dismay!"

[floral quiver]

Cool! Thank you! Rescinded!

Thats needolin dialogue I'm assuming?

[dire lynx]

yes

they seem to see each other as an extended family, which is neat

[floral quiver]

Neat!

[dire lynx]

parallel with the weavers

[floral quiver]

Totally!

[marble oasis]

The entirety of Hallownest is long dead are we really splitting hairs

[floral quiver]

Well, yes. Hallownest's neighbors were still extent by the time of its fall. By the time of the Citadel falling to the Haunting, both Karak and Verdania were either long dead or somewhat less long dead (depending on exactly how ones assumed Pharloom timeline pans out).

Both were caused by the Citadel but that's kinda my point. The Citadel doesnt have neighbors because it either makes them bend the knee of fealty, crushes them, or drives them into places such that they aren't considered a threat, effectively destroying them as polities.

And I find that an interesting contrast to Hallownest.

[trim flame]

How come weavers were beasts in deepnest but smarter and more capable in pharloom

[floral quiver]

Because the Weavers being cunning magitech geniuses wasn't as locked down in Hollow Knight compared to Silksong (they were very magically adept, but not the railgun making, robot designing, secret bunker building savants of Silksong).

And lorewise, because the Weavers of Deepnest were basically a refugee colony that had just fled their ancient and more deeply settled homeland and walked almost immediately into a slowburn apocalypse.

I'm sure that, with time (and Silksong added retrospect) and a lack of apocalypse the Weavers of Deepnest would've built and designed things on par with their magitech in Pharloom.

[craggy smelt]

the one Weaver we see in Hallownest seems alright

she isn't infected and bails as soon as she sees us

[marble oasis]

They weren’t

[craggy smelt]

everything else is infected, so probably not at their sharpest

[marble oasis]

Weavers were the intelligentsia of deepnest

[craggy smelt]

they were aligned with the native Beast tribe, but those are different from just beasts/animalistic bugs

[floral quiver]

A lot of Hallownest's later magical advances are implied to come directly from the Weavers even in Hollow Knight.

[craggy smelt]

i wonder if they had anything to do with the mining golems...

[floral quiver]

With Silksong's additions to lore I'm almost certain. And the other constructs.

Like, the Kingsmoulds and such use almost the same process of design and construction as Weaver and later Citadel robotics, just replace silken runes and silkflies with soul and Void as a CPU and power source.

[craggy smelt]

both the servitors of the weavers and the Void constructs are implied to use runes

servitors have silk runes threaded within

wingmoulds have a 'rune-etched' shell

and there was silk in the king's workshop, so it was probably used to make the runes

I wonder if silk is used to make a more 'permanent' rune, as opposed to temporary runes like the ones that explode during Pure Vessel's attack

seals and similar also seem like permanent runes, even if they aren't silk, but maybe those are harder to make

[twin dragon]

Fs has exploding runes too

Both are made out of nearly identical materials i doubt theres much difference

[craggy smelt]

yes, and I think it's the same spell as Pure Vessel, but hers are explicitly said to be woven from Silk
PV seems to make the same runes with just Soul

[twin dragon]

Well yeah i don't think there'd be much difference

[marble oasis]

silk is just a conduit for the soul i doubt there’s any significant difference in the finished product

[fading shard]

silk isn't even a conduit

it's just a threaded version of soul

as the description states

soul threaded into silk

[marble oasis]

conduit is not quite the right word

silk is their manifestation of soul

[whole holly]

derivative, i think

[marble oasis]

not that either

[whole holly]

?? how so? do you know something i don't?

[marble oasis]

the word i was looking for

[whole holly]

personally i resonate with variation/derivative, it is all-encompassing

[marble oasis]

Conduit best describes it, the Silk contains the Soul, which is the part that actually does the magic

[whole holly]

off-topic but i wanted to say how much Lost Lace parallels the Roaring Knight

even possibly lore-wise

[whole holly]

derivative as term also encompasses that, i guess it depends on personal preference

[dapper willow]

Do you guys think its possible that the shrines were a leftover cultural artifact from pre citadel pharloom?

What other things could have been assimilated into the current culture of the pilgrims

[fresh badger]

No, the shrines are pretty clearly a Weaver creation since we see a prototype shrine bell in the atla workshop

And its tied into the citadel gate system

But the pilgrims do have culture with like the minishrines at each bench

[dapper willow]

I mean the chapels

Just forgot they were chapels

Seeing more pre citadel stuff would be goated

[candid linden]

does hornet think the knight died in dream no more

[twin dragon]

Seems like it yeah

[candid linden]

so like

idk

she didnt feel suprised

at the end of act 3

I mean she was barely conscious

[twin dragon]

Something something lost lace journal entry

[frank dove]

What does that have to do with the knight

Here are the entries from the wiki

"Silk-spun child possessed by the void."

"To quell the mother's rage, and see this kingdom saved, I will claim her back. This one... the dark shall not take."

I don't see what that has to do with the knight

[frank dove]

Not all at least, snail chapel could be different but for example reapers that harvested silk did not start until after citadel

To farm the silk falling from above

[twin dragon]

This one... the dark shall not take

[frank dove]

Ah. I thought that was about Garmond tbh

And all other enemies 💀

[twin dragon]

I mean

now that you say it maybe

but

it fits tk well enough

[frank dove]

But I feel like the knight was void all along

So it doesn't make much sense

[jagged sun]

It was

[twin dragon]

Yeah but yk, her seeing tk's cracked shell

[jagged sun]

She probably thinks its shade was assimilated into the void too

[twin dragon]

she didnt see what went in thk's mind

[frank dove]

Yes true

She also saw it a lot when she killed you in her fight

[jagged sun]

She just saw tk dream nail THK and then immediately explode into void

[twin dragon]

even if tk ended up being a shade it's state as the shade is probably different as the sibling's

[frank dove]

Wait does time not pass in dream?

[twin dragon]

as tk kept its will

[jagged sun]

I assume not

[frank dove]

I feel like it did with dreamers and seer

[twin dragon]

Hornet was knocked out

[jagged sun]

Oh yeah good point

Seer says that TK woke up

[frank dove]

Well then she didn't see void explosion either

Hear me out hear me out

Sealed siblings is canon

Because then she never has to worry about that

[jagged sun]

It is, just not canon in the Silksong timeline

[twin dragon]

sealed siblings is canon and hornets dreaming shit

[frank dove]

Oh wait is that how that works

[twin dragon]

If silksong's part of the canon timeline

it cant be canon

[frank dove]

But dream no more and embrace the void are both canon?

[twin dragon]

the timeline is one thing you cant just fucking

split it

[near jasper]

Whats the topic

[twin dragon]

ambiguous

though some argue etv

[frank dove]

We are debating what is canon and whether hornet thinks the knight died

[frank dove]

Well is it possible for shade lord to exist at the same time as non shade lord knight?

[jagged sun]

Probably

[austere crest]

yes the kngiht can switch forms
we don't know if the knight can control this switching

[jagged sun]

Void Given Focus is TK plus the Siblings plus the Void

[twin dragon]

i dont think it can

not as quickly at least

[austere crest]

hey explain what human thing you were talking about in discussions

[twin dragon]

the void isnt fucking lightspeed

[twin dragon]

no.

[austere crest]

can't what?

[austere crest]

damn you i will send zote to your location

[jagged sun]

Have you read the previous messages?

[marble oasis]

darkspeed

[craggy smelt]

faster than light

[twin dragon]

switch forms, not this fast

[frank dove]

So why would he flash from knight to shade lord then back again so fast

[craggy smelt]

it can always get out of light's way

[austere crest]

my message has two different cans

[jagged sun]

Sorry, could you rephrase that? I don't understand

[twin dragon]

tc implied ambiguity

[austere crest]

he definitely can switch
also it isn't lightspeed traveling its just innervoid excaping

[twin dragon]

god tc should NEVER do this again because tc fans take literally everything literally

[twin dragon]

it is fucking lightspeed

[frank dove]

fr 😭

[austere crest]

edited it

[frank dove]

darkspeed

[twin dragon]

it happens in an instant

[twin dragon]

alr blud

[jagged sun]

I meant what do you mean by cans?

[austere crest]

light travels buddy
here it is just switching forms

[frank dove]

Ok guys let's talk about something more productive and less ambiguous

Such as what are the different numbered classes of pharloom

And what do their first numbers mean

[austere crest]

can 1: can the knight switch forms to shade lord
can 2: can the knight control this switching

[frank dove]

All the info we have are slab lore tablets

And a few boss names

[austere crest]

what

[twin dragon]

yeah if the form's made out of void, it cant be this fucking fast

[jagged sun]

Ooh yeah that makes sense now thanks

[austere crest]

1 word is more than enough

[twin dragon]

prisoners

[near jasper]

The numbers means theyre that number

[twin dragon]

in the slab

[near jasper]

First sinner is the first sinner

[austere crest]

sorry if i gave you a headache trying to read that
cough @twin dragon cough

[near jasper]

4th chorus is the 4th chorus

[austere crest]

she seems chill asf

[near jasper]

Twelth architect is the 12th architect

[twin dragon]

Yeah its ambiguous

[austere crest]

last judge is the last judge

[austere crest]

blud did not get the joke

[frank dove]

Penitent, Eighth of the Twelfth.
Guilty of the sin of irreverence.
Penance by chaining.
Absolution granted after death.
Penitent, Second of the Fourth.
Guilty of the sin of dissonance.
Penance by silencing.
Absolution granted after death.

Penitent, Fourth of the Fourth.
Guilty of the sins of infirmity, sickness.
Penance by swallowing.
Absolution granted after death.
Penitent, Twelfth of the First.
Guilty of an unnamed sin.
Penance by casting.
Absolution not granted.

Penitent, First of the First.
Guilty of the sin of apostasy.
Penance by constriction.
Absolution denied.

[twin dragon]

i did

but its still ambiguous

[austere crest]

damn nerd

[frank dove]

Bro I copied straight from wiki

[near jasper]

Maybe it just means the position of their cell

[twin dragon]

fym nerd he copied it from the wiki

💔

[frank dove]

Um I don't think so

[austere crest]

how did you find it on the wiki

[frank dove]

Bc first sinner is first of the first

And widow is 12th of the first?

[frank dove]

I searched 'lore tablets' then clicked 'slab'

[near jasper]

We dont know that

[austere crest]

again first sinner seems like a chill ass guy/girl

[jagged sun]

All weavers are female

[frank dove]

A lot of people were debating it the other day

[frank dove]

Grimm is male

[whole holly]

guys to me Deep Docks, Greymoor and Mt.Fay history is somewhat mysterious, what do we know about them

[jagged sun]

Since when is Grimm a weaver

[austere crest]

cuz female spiders EAT MALE SPIDERS

[jagged sun]

Grimm is the vessel for the Nightmare Heart

[near jasper]

Deep docks is a citadel (weaver era) mining operation

[frank dove]

Ok so what does 'penance by swallowing' mean

[near jasper]

Greymoor is repurposed farm land to get silk dregs

[frank dove]

Because remember he has similar moveset to hornet

So they are siblings

Or grimm is her uncle

[whole holly]

what do we know about it's pre-citadel history, are forge bugs different species, because i doubt Forge Daughter is a Pilgrim

[jagged sun]

The Reaper's Crest is just a reference

[foggy stratus]

Grimm can turn into a fucking Pufferfish and a swarm of bat like creatures.

[near jasper]

We know nothing

:)

[whole holly]

i mean yea but i mean history

[whole holly]

sad but yeah

[frank dove]

Nuh uh grimm is a reaper

So in sea of sorrows when we can swim now

[near jasper]

They like that one spike design from sinners road

[frank dove]

We will go under craw lake

And find grimm's parents

And backstory

Trust 🙏

[austere crest]

for mt fay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2CKTPXOK10

[whole holly]

guys it seems that outside of shamans and weavers, memory is also prevalent outside of it

[austere crest]

we dive under the pale lake
my guess

[whole holly]

Nyleth is somewhat linked to memory considering seth's needolin dialogue

[jagged sun]

CrimsonAntelope, please stop spewing bs

[whole holly]

i hope Seth gets better arc in sea of sorrows and Pinstress too

[jagged sun]

That you have no proof for

[frank dove]

Why can she jump in literal void ocean that likely is below the entire planet but not small ponds

[twin dragon]

son this is literally and very obviously a joke

[jagged sun]

Everbloom

[frank dove]

Just has to pick a flower from her brain first yeah

[near jasper]

She doesnt feel like it

[frank dove]

Grimm was def a joke but sorry

[whole holly]

gotta fight drowned plasmified lost infected haunted lace

[austere crest]

are u fucking apologizing for just a joke

[jagged sun]

It's fine, it's just that the rules of the lore channels are that it's more in-depth and without low effort/ memes

[frank dove]

Well it is off kind off topic from lore

[jagged sun]

Otherwise its fine in any other channel

[austere crest]

fair enough

[frank dove]

We're still supposed to be talking about what 'penance by swallowing' means

[whole holly]

how you guys think seth will get more content in Sea of Sorrows?

[near jasper]

Torture

[near jasper]

Maybe, iirc the place he sits on in fleatopia got changed for some reason

[frank dove]

Are they getting swallowed or are they swallowing something

[jagged sun]

A new bench got added to the Pale Lake before the flea caravan arrives there in the latest patch

[whole holly]

what happened to Seth is pretty similar to Brumm/Nymm and Quirrel fate i guess

[austere crest]

no evidence anymore

[jagged sun]

Evidence of what?

[near jasper]

1 hour of being inside unravelled swallowed

[austere crest]

we are diving under pale lake i'm so sure

[jagged sun]

Almost 100% chance

[austere crest]

stop making it worse

[whole holly]

probably getting swallowed, symbolism fits torture more, if this is serous question, there is probably a pit somewhere

i feel like they throw penitents in hostile environments such as pits

[austere crest]

what would a pithave to do with swallowing

[jagged sun]

Figuratively getting swallowed (by flames, cold, or other things that can kill someone by covering them)

Probably

[whole holly]

it does, person being thrown in it is swallowed by the pit, i think, i have heard it somewhere

[austere crest]

oh makes sense but tc knew what they were doing with that phrasing

[austere crest]

oh makes sense

[whole holly]

so do you guys think Seth will have journey with us, especially if we will enter Sea of Sorrows through Pale Lake?

[frank dove]

This is a serious question, I was not the one making it dirty minded. I figured if we know what swallowed them we might have a better way of figuring out what the 'of the fourth' class is

[austere crest]

please don't seth will outclass us in every way

[jagged sun]

Oh shoot goobers but with an N instead of a B is banned lol

Oops

[austere crest]

what could be the context to that in lore channel

[floral quiver]

Swallowing silk. Remember that silk doesnt always succeed at keeping people alive.

[near jasper]

Maybe the class is just the time they were taken

[whole holly]

i mean we don't have to fight him, it should be kind of like Quirrel's journey in hallownest but in reverse

[jagged sun]

But yeah TC know that a part of the fandom are weird and still chose to go ahead with showing Hornet without a cloak

[near jasper]

First of the first and twelth of the first for widow and fs

[whole holly]

interesting insight

[frank dove]

Hm

[frank dove]

But yeah this seems to go against that ^

[austere crest]

the slaps in game were a direct jab at those weak-minded, pathetic individuals

[near jasper]

Why?

[jagged sun]

Or maybe the first number is the order in which they were taken and the second number is the species

Like the first could be weavers

[jagged sun]

The ones who got slapped absolutely deserved it too

Obv

[near jasper]

The slab flies take a lot of people at once, the second number might Just be numbering the fly kidnapping spree they were taken in

[frank dove]

I was agreeing with you, if second number was the time they were punished it seems a coincidence both weavers are first

[near jasper]

?

[whole holly]

will we see another Weaver spire in Sea of Sorrows in your opinion, personally i think we will get new tool and silk skill

[frank dove]

That's what I was thinking

[jagged sun]

Bye people I'll check in on the convo outcome tomorrow

[austere crest]

except yarnaby
she wasn't weird
she was just trying to make hornet feel more as she should for how she treated the clover prince

[floral quiver]

Basically, they're guilty of getting sick at a point where Silk use is supposed to keep that from happening, so you get the penitent to swallow silk until it either works, absolving them of the sin of infirmary or they die, upon which event the sect is magnanimous enough to absolve the penitent of the sin as an act of benevolence and mercy.

[frank dove]

Maybe a weavenest

[near jasper]

Isnt yarnaby a girl

[whole holly]

interesting, i am inclined to agree

[austere crest]

there will be like 100 convo's

[frank dove]

If we have like submarinish technology maybe weavers built it

[floral quiver]

Or the Citadel did.

[austere crest]

shh

[frank dove]

Or xylotols master

[floral quiver]

Their technology is around the level where submarines start being a possibility

[near jasper]

Or michael

[frank dove]

Or natives

Or seth

[floral quiver]

I'm being serious

[frank dove]

Yeah it looks pretty similar too

[floral quiver]

Submarine technology isn't modern, is my point

[whole holly]

Bay bugs better not be crustacean, also i want Weavers to be one with Architecture because it would suggest weaver activity as seach for solution, also i want Weaver to be experimenting with plasmium out of desparation and giving up like Absolom did

[floral quiver]

Like; the first very basic submarines were created in the 1700s

[near jasper]

Absolom didnt give up she just died lol

[frank dove]

Eh actually it looks a little more like native or something when I look at the most recent trailer

[floral quiver]

They were mostly just *is watertight and has access to oxygen" but they went underwater

[whole holly]

she constricted herself so not like we can tell

[frank dove]

The leaked animation looks a lot like citadel

[near jasper]

The what

[frank dove]

But the thing behind hornet in the trailer looks kind of unique

[frank dove]

Haven't you seen it?

[near jasper]

No

[solar gale]

Hello chat what are we on about on this fine evening

[whole holly]

what is weavenest codename for broken weavenest in mt.fay?

[near jasper]

Sos speculation

[frank dove]

Looks like fast travel animation of a submarine underwater

[near jasper]

Michael

[solar gale]

mmm sea

[whole holly]

i am being serious, please

[solar gale]

https://tenor.com/view/kuiil-have-spoken-mandalorian-star-wars-gif-15566834

[floral quiver]

There is an animation going around of a submarine travel much like Bell Beast

[near jasper]

We dont know

[near jasper]

Can you show it?

[whole holly]

it is in filenames guys, i am asking for people who do know

[austere crest]

looks mid tbh

[near jasper]

I dont think its real

[floral quiver]

Okay.

Just posting it like you asked

[austere crest]

still looks mid asf

[frank dove]

I think it's real but was made a while ago

Don't think it's polished

They decided to move pharloom bay to dlc so they paused it

[near jasper]

The silk flies imply its post citadel but it doesnt match anything from the citadel

[whole holly]

in Sea of Sorrows we will probably get another weavenest, since all weaver names have different linguistic root, i will headcanon that upcoming weavenest name might be Weavenest Thalassa

[near jasper]

They harp-y front is just weird

[frank dove]

Oh damn I completely missed the silk flies

Wait coral tower doesn't use silkfly light right?

[near jasper]

No

[floral quiver]

Camora, seemingly.

[frank dove]

What is in those lamps

[whole holly]

it's actually askar, i went to see trivia in mount fay page

[floral quiver]

Gotcha

[near jasper]

Just white orbs

[frank dove]

I feel like the ones in the foreground look different from ones in the background

Does anyone have unblur mod

[graceful grail]

This is a very tentative theory I have,

could widow be one of the Weavers that returned from Hallownest. She almost seems to recognize hornet.

[frank dove]

||Would look cool too||

[frank dove]

I thought she stayed loyal and never left Pharloom

[floral quiver]

Makes sense as Askar is soldier

Like, the word

[graceful grail]

Me too, especially since her dream sequence only has Weaver‘s leaving her.

I mean, every weaver dips as soon as when hornet gets close

[frank dove]

Yeah and she talks about how loyal she is or something like that

[whole holly]

most of names have germanic, herbrew and gaelic linguistic roots, also they have pattern too with naming with consonants they feature, i am excluding name hornet for obvious reasons

[floral quiver]

Askar is a direct lift from Arabic

[whole holly]

pattern is clear : Karn, Murglin, Absolom, Alta, Cindril, Keelal, Camora, Askar, Herrah

[frank dove]

And a lot of people think she was punished in the slab before weavers left, she would have had to pharloom without silk or mask

[whole holly]

oh, i didn't check Askar individually, thanks

[floral quiver]

Mhn

[graceful grail]

How come GMS only wakes up after a hornet gets to her?

Does she just really like her nap?

As far as I know, she never gets up for then

[whole holly]

i think that Sea of Sorrows Weavenest might have Greek roots and be connected to sea, so Thallora is my pick, personally, but team cherry's creativity can't be predicted

[floral quiver]

Technically nowadays "askar" is "army" while "askari" is "individual soldier", but that's me pulling from someone else's words

[near jasper]

She got hungry

[floral quiver]

Drama

[near jasper]

Silksong biological classification video part 2 released

[whole holly]

murglin is apparently is associated with swamp/marsh

[graceful grail]

Also, judging by first sinners power level, you would think that every weaver combined would be able to take on GMS. But I think that GMS has some sort of special control over the first GEN Weavers because they have her direct silk in them.

[floral quiver]

Note that she doesn't recognize Hornet herself, so much as "The Weaverkin who should have been in the Cradle by now and escaped"

[whole holly]

kind of fitting

[near jasper]

Or she just flew off

[floral quiver]

Weaver naming conventions are neat!

[whole holly]

well yes, even Herrah and Cut weaver name Askar fits said convention/pattern

[floral quiver]

Attempting to physically fight Silk seems to have been a considered possibility given the Silkshot project. It just didnt pan out over the Citadel plan.

[near jasper]

Atla was kinda stupid making the snare setter to fight something that flies ngl

[whole holly]

Silk/Rune Bazooka would have been better

[floral quiver]

I mean, it was a prototype

And being a trap, I'm confident trickery would have been involved

[graceful grail]

Also, is the Dies Idre melody the actual power?

It seems when hornet plays it on her needolin it’s sort of wrestles the control from silk for a time.

[floral quiver]

Yes. Song has explicit magical power.

You can weave spells into music.

[near jasper]

"hey mom"-weaver on suspiciously runey floor

[floral quiver]

"So we built you this monument! Cool, huh? Now if you could just lie down in this specially made sleeping chamber"

[whole holly]

that's why sherma didn't get haunted

[floral quiver]

Very much so

Note that Sherma's song can also affect the Haunted

[graceful grail]

Well, one thing that’s been troubling me is Trobbio.

He seems to be trying to use his own song to free pharloom.

Which is Melody is the dies idre minus one note.

[floral quiver]

As he keeps a Haunted pilgrim docile

[near jasper]

-# who?

The cogwork dancers room is kind of weird

Why do you have so much defense for a normal part of the pilgrimage according to the elevator machines

[foggy stratus]

Fuck them pilgrims.

[near jasper]

Ok ballador

[fading shard]

horf vessel I miss quirrel, I miss him a lot........at least we have Shakra ig

[whole holly]

we have Seth too

[floral quiver]

The whole threefold melody, cogwork Core thing isn't a regular part of the pilgrimage. Or rather, every member of the Citadel never stops being a pilgrim even when they're the rare few who are allowed to go up to the Cradle.

Plus we can assume that those who are chosen to ascend to the Cradle wouldn't need to fight the Cogwork Dancers, as they would most likely have special permission to do the rite

Unlike Hornet

[graceful grail]

People who have been around for the first hollowknight DLC’s, did you have to start a new playthrough be able to access the new stuff?

[floral quiver]

Hmm, honestly can't remember on that

[whole holly]

i don't know why hidden dreams would need new save files, all of the bosses are dream boss fights

[floral quiver]

Yeah, that's my thought process. Most of the DLC are additive rather than changing the base game

Just can't remember

[graceful grail]

When i first played hollow knight. I had just finished P5 the Night Silksong Released. I missed the 8 year drama

[floral quiver]

Or rather, the "DLC" are just updates

[whole holly]

Sea of Sorrows will introduce new area, it is clearly as big as godseeker ending

[near jasper]

Do we think that ledge in the coral tower room that leads to nothing will become useful in sos

[whole holly]

not really, ledges will be probably removed

[foggy fractal]

iirc the only case you would have to start a new playthrough would be if you banished the grimm troupe and wanted to fight nightmare king grimm that or vice versa you fought nightmare king grimm but want carefree melody instead

also maybe hive knight would be missing if you already got hiveblood? don't quote me on it though

wait no theres also the zote stuff

can't access gpz fight if he's dead

[heavy gyro]

Was the charm menu half empty

[whole holly]

i am still frustrated about fact that Lifeblood DLC wasn't about Lifeblood

[foggy fractal]

don't worry that's why we have sea of sorrow

[dapper willow]

which will be about lifeblood instead of about the sea...

/jk

[foggy fractal]

less dense but definitely not half empty

[main dirge]

How come in hollow knight it's called lifeblood but in silksong it's called plasmium?

[whole holly]

different bugs call it different names

also are Seals and Runes same? are they also same thing with different names?

[main dirge]

Idk I'm not even that far into silksong so idk what u mean

I did beat silksong but I only completed like 45% of the actual game

[near jasper]

Slightly different

[whole holly]

it's okay

[whole holly]

i mean yeah, but they only seem different in applications? it's weird how similar they are

[floral quiver]

Seals grew out of runes

The Weavers are acknowledged as masters of sealing, one of the reasons the Pale King made a deal with them

[main dirge]

I did come back tho and I'm trying to get to act 3 and the only thing I know is that I have to complete almost every wish/promise, I have to find every flea in the game, and there's a specific dialogue that leads me into act 3

[whole holly]

i wish Moths were as elaborated on as Weavers are, Mosskin too, so many of their history is extinct, there is no last of their tribe anyways in events of silksong at least most likely

Moth and Mosskin seem to be engineered to be dependent on their progenitor, weavers too and bug's mind expanded by beacon in a way

all of the bugs created or gifted by higher beings seem to depend on them

[near jasper]

Except pk Offspring

[main dirge]

And incase u didn't know, theres a flea member you can add to the caravan and it can be found in the Putrified ducts and once you find him in the caravan you can buy the locations of all the fleas for a surprisingly low price

[whole holly]

i mean Vessels are unique in that they are conceived children of two higher beings inheriting their physiology with added effects of abyss's influence

[whole holly]

i do know that, they are my favorite flea, i wish we got to fight them

[main dirge]

I know it's like a flea version of cloth

[floral quiver]

Vog is a lady, I'm pretty sure?

[main dirge]

Idk lemme check

[whole holly]

what? i didn't know that

[floral quiver]

Yeah

[near jasper]

Why did the citadel put a flea on the bird part of the memorium

[floral quiver]

Fleas have wings

[whole holly]

they couldn't get fayforn or craws because they are too strong, so they chose off-brand fayforn, a flea

[floral quiver]

Note that Craws may not havs been around when the Memorium was active

[whole holly]

i swear to higher being, if we don't get Palestag lore in Sea of Sorrows i am going to be mad

[near jasper]

The crawfather sent a single juror to the memorium and thats why only 3 memoria still exist

[floral quiver]

They're scavengers

[main dirge]

Idk I used Google and it said that half the ppl think they are a female and others think they are male

[near jasper]

Theyre in the memorium

[foggy stratus]

Then what's up with all the craw nesting stuff?

[whole holly]

i edited it, what now?

[heavy gyro]

Whoever took that picture never took off compass

[floral quiver]

Cool.

[whole holly]

i never take off my compass either in any game

[main dirge]

I only unequip my compass if I know where I'm going

[floral quiver]

I put the compass in the Vesticrest

[foggy stratus]

I haven't used compass consistently in any of my SK steel soul run.

[near jasper]

They did get craws

[whole holly]

or if i really need some charm combination

[whole holly]

they broke out quickly didn't they, Craws are only ones to go against citadel and win? what the...

[main dirge]

Yea

[foggy stratus]

Not using any maps really helps out your sense of direction in Skong.

[near jasper]

Theres like 20 dead craws in the aviarium cages

[whole holly]

true but i keep it because i am loyal to compass

[whole holly]

yeah but that's just typical in battle, these things happen

[near jasper]

Craw glaze

[floral quiver]

They didn't win so much as not be a nuisance enough to be wiped out.

Though survival is victory in a situation like pharloom

[whole holly]

yeah i agree, they largely maintained their presence and stability

[floral quiver]

Also how long the Craws have held their part of Greymoor is a big unknown

I wouldn't be surprised if they're a relatively recent part of Greymoor, coming in after the Haunting basically stopped the Citadel from patrolling and maintaining its territory

[main dirge]

Source: Hollow Knight Wiki https://share.google/nHemWMqx9wB7JTE6u just use this

[near jasper]

Ew fandom wiki

[main dirge]

It helped me

[near jasper]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Hollow_Knight_Wiki

[whole holly]

we need more Mossmir content, beautiful life that's evolving and developing beat is interesting

[near jasper]

Use this wiki, the other one only exists for vandalizing

[main dirge]

Oh

[near jasper]

The entire page for weaver skills is just silkspear

Lace has 1 piece of dialogue

[foggy fractal]

how many pieces?

[foggy stratus]

[floral quiver]

The best part of the "officialish" wiki is it's dialogue archive.

To not have that for a major character is just poor.

[fading shard]

the pale king has been showcased to be rather good at sealing capabilities too

honestly to some degree even better then what they accomplished to some degree

as while yes they to a great degree aided the pale king in creating the seal binding the black egg temple

that was the main extent of their help

[fading shard]

?

[fading shard]

I do wish we got a far more interesting history on the moths and mosskin

the two groups have a lot of promise

in backstory

especially the rough past the white lady and mosskin had

[whole holly]

if you mean sealing the infection/radiance, it is way more complex as Dreamers themselves acting as seals and seal of binding playing part of it, as well as Black Egg Temple

[fading shard]

I was referring to a few things actually

[whole holly]

we don't even get moth-spawn or mosskin-spawn character that could realistically survive the infection

[whole holly]

kind of like we did with hornet

[whole holly]

Seal of Binding was developed by weavers too, Pale King seems to have used Weaver silk and possibly knowledge for his projects

[fading shard]

1. the dreamer seals

2. the great and really powerful seal he put for entering the white palace in the dream realm

3. the seal enchanted chains in the black egg temple that have been shown to be capable of completely Immobilizing the hollow knight and the great gateway he created for the abyss

[fading shard]

I was not referring to the seal of binding for the black egg temple

as it's showcased that the weavers aided him in that specific seal

[whole holly]

1. agree that was probably PK 2.seems like different seal than typical one, Grimm can do it too 3. well weavers also did that with First Sinner so who knows maybe they helped too

also we don't know how mothkin became extinct, did they need to be sustained by light and couldn't bask in it or did they die from infection or what???

[fading shard]

2. was clearly done by him

3. Nothing suggests the weavers were part of it and I think we shouldn't theorize that they did

we've been shown that various beings can have their own versions

of different spells

without needing the knowledge of others

the weavers were shown to have helped with the seal of binding

but that's it

andi t makes sense that they aided in that specific seal

[floral quiver]

Seals are made from collections of runes, Weavers are creators and masters of runic development.

The Pale King made diplomacy with the Weavers to get silk, sealing expertise and a Dreamer

[whole holly]

i don't disagree with that being done by him, but i was just pointing out immobilizing seals are also done by weavers and not exclusive to pale king, so using it to make weavers seem inferior rather, when they have THK seals too for First Sinner is pretty bad point

[fading shard]

okay yeah fair point

okay that's a fair statement

[whole holly]

but White Lady also did something similar to Dreamer seal, she but seal or bindings as she calls it around herself

[fading shard]

I was about to mention her doing the same

[whole holly]

they seem similar in structure, weaver seals/runes look rather different

[whole holly]

also powerscaling weavers and pale beings is pretty needless argument since it has obvious outcome

[floral quiver]

I honestly like the Pale King not just being a generic multidisciplinary magic scientist, but one who took others magiscience and iterated on it with his own ideas

Like, the Pale King didn't start out knowing runes or seals, but interacting with the Weavers gave him insight.

[whole holly]

Wingsmoulds having Rune etched shells seems to be improvements from Servitors being also made from rune/silk and shell, pale king also added essence and soul seemingly

[floral quiver]

Exactly

[fading shard]

wingsmoulds and kingsmoulds have existed long before the weaver partnership though??

[whole holly]

???

[floral quiver]

No?

[fading shard]

wdym no?

[floral quiver]

They're relatively late inventions

[fading shard]

where was that suggested

[whole holly]

do we even have timeline

[whole holly]

where was that suggested?

[fading shard]

he's already been showcased to be that either way

[floral quiver]

No, but I'm working off the assumption that void research was relatively late in Hallownest's existance, as a reaction to the 2nd infection wave and the Hollow Knight plan.

[fading shard]

he literally has more powers and capabilities then any other character

[whole holly]

also Weaver diaspora is really old, only Herrah/Dreamer collaboration seems relatively recent

[whole holly]

that's rather logical

[fading shard]

that he just has by his out metric

[floral quiver]

He has more implication. The Pale King was more scientist and inventor than powerful magic user

[swift needle]

why not both

[fading shard]

we literally get weird power scaling mentions of his power

idk what you're talking about

[whole holly]

Weavers diaspora in Hallownest is older than Second Wave of Infection, but don't know about first wave though

[foggy stratus]

Hey, someone had to teach PV its spell craft and it sure as shit wasn't Soul Master. And for all the Shamans are, they arent that powerful.

[floral quiver]

Because one is directly shown and the other requires taking his subjects beliefs at their word

[swift needle]

hes still a pale being tho

[floral quiver]

So?

[fading shard]

the pale king was clearly the one that trained it

it's the most likely answer

[swift needle]

pale beings are shown to posses magical powers like gms

[fading shard]

His soul and light capabilities are literally mentioned multiple times bro

[whole holly]

he uses his powers for science reasons, we don't really see him in battle or using his powers, only inventions, so logically that's where he put his efforts towards, nobody is saying that pale king is weak as power user or something

[swift needle]

pale king AND weavers maybe cuz it has rune attacks like first sinner

[fading shard]

the rune atack the pure vessel does has no similarities to the first sinners

[foggy stratus]

At the same time someone had to phase shift WP into the Dream Realm and given his state at the time he likely wouldn't want to see anyone.

[whole holly]

maybe Five Great Knights too, there are many possible groups that could have trained it

[floral quiver]

And that's not discreet "powers and capabilities"

That's implication

[swift needle]

wdym no similarities

[foggy stratus]

Rune Rage is stated to be a forgotten technique tho.

[whole holly]

we do we feel need to reduce PV's training to one person

[floral quiver]

No? Hornet recognizes them

[fading shard]

it's literally said to be a forgotten technique

[foggy stratus]

It is a forgotten technique.

Its in the damn description.

[fading shard]

the hunter's journal

[whole holly]

even with that i doubt Rune usage itself was, PV could have very well have learned it from Weavers

[swift needle]

maybe forgotten js means super old

and no weaver uses it now

[whole holly]

or it was phased out for different techniques

[fading shard]

look at the rune rage the pale king made and first sinners

it's a completely different design

[foggy stratus]

If they had it why not teach it to Hornet?

[whole holly]

Pale King made rune rage?

[swift needle]

do you think the pv is going to use the EXACT same rune rage?

[fading shard]

pure vessel

[swift needle]

the rune rage we use is silk

pv uses soul

its gonna be diff

[whole holly]

it clearly is different weaver technique although not rune

[floral quiver]

Hornet kinda lacks many silk skills in Hollow Knight.

Like, she has the moves but lacks the silk runes that make them powerful

[foggy stratus]

I feel that its more of a case of two different people or groups making something similar despite being separated.

[whole holly]

it doesn't fit Pale King or Vessels otherwise though, we never see rune attack usage outside Weavers and PV

[floral quiver]

Yeah, there's an obvious intended visual connection

[fading shard]

you realize there are several repeating techniques different powerful characters use right?

like teleportation

are we going to suggest the pure vessel was taught teleportation by the weavers or radiance

or radiance

or maybe light atacks

[foggy stratus]

GMS doesn't teleport.

[fading shard]

or soul daggers

[whole holly]

only runes PK uses are rune-etched shell in wingsmoulds , even that is also present in Servitors

[floral quiver]

The Weavers never teleport bit the Soul Masters do

[fading shard]

I meant radiance

[foggy stratus]

FS does.

[fading shard]

first sinner does

[swift needle]

first sinner teleports...

[fading shard]

how did you forget about the first sinner bro

[foggy fractal]

too many sinners to keep track of

[whole holly]

teleportation is lot more universal with soul users and unique beings, but Rune is a technique that needs to be taught

[floral quiver]

Because I don't know if she can teleport because weaver skill or because she's basically a ghost

[fading shard]

what about the soul daggers the pure vessel uses

[whole holly]

Palestag teleports

[swift needle]

she weaves in and out of the screen

[fading shard]

other characters use other variants of that

[swift needle]

PALESTAG TAUGHT THE PVVV!!!!

i was then shot 47 times

[whole holly]

that's somewhat unnecessary discussion

[floral quiver]

Hornet does even.

[fading shard]

what about the floor spikes

[whole holly]

istg...

[fading shard]

are we going to suggest that grimm taught it that

[swift needle]

ragebait

[whole holly]

yeah

[swift needle]

🥺

[whole holly]

no obviously it was nyleth...

[fading shard]

No I'm just pointing out that just because two different characters use capabilities similar to one another

doesn't mean that one specifically knows that techniquew

especially since runes aren't specific to just the weavers

or seals

[floral quiver]

Like, not everything the Pure Vessel uses is visually connected to the Weavers, but its Rune rage and soul daggers very much are.

[fading shard]

We see others are capable of it too

[foggy stratus]

Fym the soul daggers are?

[fading shard]

are you actually going to say the soul daggers are too

TF

First sinner doesn't even use them

she doesn't even create something like that

she uses pins in the area

Are we being serious

[swift needle]

3 fold pin...

jk

🥺

[whole holly]

but there is more depth that you are ignoring though, seemingly on purpose to make weak point, Grimm's techniques differ too much to the point that they aren't even Soul-based, so it is really weak comparison, and bad counterpoint

[swift needle]

CRESTS

crests

and crests

[limpid summit]

The first sinner journal entry talks about weaving Silk into blazing runes. PV’s runes are not Silk

Weavers didn’t need to teach it that

PK would have

[fading shard]

thank you apple egg

[limpid summit]

He can naturally make seals and runes

[floral quiver]

Like, I dont think so?

[whole holly]

technique of weaving runes was weaver invention and influence, even in hallownest

[fading shard]

you mean these

[floral quiver]

Pale nails

[limpid summit]

There’s a seal on his actual egg

He was literally born with one

[fading shard]

that's......gms technique

that is very specifically gms technique what are we even saying atp

[floral quiver]

There's a aeal now

[limpid summit]

You think weavers put that there?

[swift needle]

🥺

[limpid summit]

Ancient civilization guy has a soul-void seal on him

[floral quiver]

No. I think the King put it there after learning rune and seal craft from the Weavers

[whole holly]

Seals yea, but Runes are weaver invention and influence, they brought it to hallownest, weavers used to creater servitors and even Eva, Wingsmoulds and Kingsmoulds were seemingly influenced by Weaver techniques

[limpid summit]

Why would he need to do that

[floral quiver]

Because I'm not assuming he knew everything ever from the beginning.

[limpid summit]

Kingsmoulds likely came before Vessels as early Void experiments and it doesn’t make sense for the Weavers and Deepnest at large to sign on with PK before the Vessel project happened

So no

[whole holly]

Seal and Runes are separate, you don't need to explain it to them, they are being purposefully obtuse about runes being weaver influence and countering by obviously different seals

[floral quiver]

Seals are made out of runes

[whole holly]

i mean there are different types of seals

[floral quiver]

Like the seal of binding is a collection of runes

[limpid summit]

Seals are runes

[fading shard]

How is this in any way related to the weavers wtf

[limpid summit]

Seals are a type of rune

[fading shard]

weavers have been showcased to be incapable of doing anything similar to this

the best they do is picking up pins and using silk runes on them

[floral quiver]

No?

Theyre very visibly large collections of runes making a whole "image"

[fading shard]

as shown with the first sinner

[whole holly]

not really, Seals are broader category, look at Shade Beast's Sealed Mind, also Seal on Grimm if dream nailed without grimmchild

[limpid summit]

Yes that’s a seal with an Essence medium

Most seals have a soul medium

[fading shard]

so you're saying that other beings can have seals but the pale king can't?

we're shown that others have capabilities of seal magic without the weavers

[whole holly]

Runes as application of silk/soul usage are weaver influence, especially rune attacks

[limpid summit]

There’s no evidence that PV who has distinct non Weaver spells was given that capability by Weavers

[floral quiver]

What spells?

[limpid summit]

This one's husk held a masterful talent, to weave Silk into blazing runes. Throughout my life, I have seen runes woven for many tasks. Was she the first to hone such skills?

This is what is important here

[whole holly]

where? other one Essence and Void seals, i just want to know

[floral quiver]

What distinct spells does the King have?

[limpid summit]

Silk is just soul spun a certain way by GMS

[whole holly]

we only see rune attacks in PV and Weavers dude

[floral quiver]

Like, the Pale King is shown to be a technical guy more than a spellcaster

His whole deal is magitech

[whole holly]

yeah, exactly

[fading shard]

out of curiosity if we get a pale king boss fight

and he uses a bunch of various spells

are you going to suggest the weavers taught him that

I'm not asking to be spiteful

[floral quiver]

No.

[fading shard]

I'm just curious how you would react

[limpid summit]

We only see essence seals in moths and Grimm dude

Wow two things

[sinful nimbus]

@powderedwater

[fading shard]

if he showcased in a hypothetical boss fight spell casting capabilities

would you just say the weavers taught him that

that he isn't a magic caster

because I feel as though we've been told enough about the pale king

to know he has a lot of magical prowess and a wide variety of powers

[whole holly]

and? those aren't equivalent, Rune is advanced contruct pioneered by weavers, we only see shamans, weaver and pv use it

[floral quiver]

If he's shown to use spells I'd assume their his own.

But he doesn't and all of his shown capability has a lot of implied or directly shown Weaver connections

[limpid summit]

Shamans?