sk-lore

[near jasper]

I like how team cherry stylized the text of verdania and karak to be different from the citadel

[random aspen]

ive never used any crest other than hunter but at least im not limiting myself with only the needle

without trying anything else

[lyric rose]

You are right, it is weird

And terrible for Bilewater, most likely

And honestly I feel like claw mirrors kinda does what it does but bigger but I mean

Double the claw mirrors

Double the fun

[drifting whale]

makes sense, as far as I know you can only heal yourself if you damage another enemy during the animation, which is pretty useless in bilewater

[lyric rose]

At least with beast you can space yourself out away from an enemy on the initial bind and then slam them to pieces

[drifting whale]

maybe, idk never used beast creast

[near jasper]

Why does bell beast not have needolin dialogue

[wide lintel]

Bell beast void creature confirmed?

[near jasper]

True

[drifting whale]

Maybe he's just smart enough to not answer to songs

[near jasper]

It does answer to songs

You can call it to a bellway with needolin

And it also sings

[drifting whale]

oh sry your talking to bellbeast, I thought you were talking to bell eater

[near jasper]

Bell eater has needolin dialogue

[drifting whale]

oh

[near jasper]

Which implies theres multiple bell eaters

:)

[floral quiver]

Tools don't do enough immediately to make them feel necessary compared to just getting good at fighting.

Like, yeah they help, and allow you to do what was shown, but just getting better at reading and reacting to bosses and enemies feels more immediately rewarding than learning to do what was shown.

I know that was about the usability of clawline in combat, but "someone doesnt use tools" seemingly being implied to be "unfun play" irked me a bit.

[foggy stratus]

Reminds me of AnyRad fights.

[near jasper]

Why does skynx not have needolin dialogue

[limpid summit]

Who knows

Leading theory is that it’s a Nosk and it can mask its thoughts just like Nosk in HK

[foggy stratus]

Not a thought behind they eyes.

[drifting whale]

There is a theory that skynx is the same speciec as nosk

[limpid summit]

Upside down face (not evidence, but meant to be evocative) with some manner of mimicry and thought obfuscation

It isn’t exactly shown shapeshifting but Hornet would totally know what a Nosk is

And if it could read minds it would see that

[limpid summit]

Gameplay, to not mess with Beastling’s Call

[drifting whale]

In hollow Knight the dream dialog of the corpses just beyond of nosks arena tells that nosk can read the mind of others and even transform into the loved ones of the opposing bugs

[sinful nimbus]

forgot about skynx nosk

[limpid summit]

I know same

It’s because no one’s disputing it anymore

It’s just part of the zeitgeist

[sinful nimbus]

❤️‍🩹

[limpid summit]

Yeah and if Hornet saw Herrah’s head sticking out of a cave she’s just going to kill the thing

[near jasper]

How does that mess with beastling call?

[limpid summit]

It would be confusing

[dire lynx]

(hes not)

[sinful nimbus]

fym

next you'll say Nyleth isn't an Isma

[limpid summit]

Next you’ll say Nuu isn’t an Unn

[drifting whale]

Yes, but also being traumatized asf, maybe she couldnt even continue anymore

[dire lynx]

nah this one is true 100%

[sinful nimbus]

salubra isn't a sylphean slug 🥀

[limpid summit]

I don’t think Hornet could get traumatized

She’s too stoic

[near jasper]

How does getting a crest actually work in universe

[limpid summit]

But she is careful around people from her past

She probably treats Greyroot with so much respect because she looks like WL

[drifting whale]

It would kinda make sense, sure stynx is behaving weird for that, but other than that I don't see much difference

[limpid summit]

Crests are like your nature

[sinful nimbus]

If its not a nosk its a related species imo

[limpid summit]

Hornet’s nature is malleable because she’s a Wyrm

[sinful nimbus]

Mimicry through an upside down mask is kinda telling

[craggy smelt]

we don't know what an uninfected nosk would be like
what they'd get up to

[limpid summit]

And at that point what’s the point lmao there is good reasons why a Nosk wouldn’t reveal itself to Hornet

[dire lynx]

no mindreading, no shapeshifting, different biota and location

[limpid summit]

How would we know if it was mindreading

💔

[sinful nimbus]

we just making upo words now

[craggy smelt]

'location' bwuh, fancy word-talking for 'place'

[near jasper]

There is some cut needolin dialogue that show what are probably styx's thoughts in skynx

[limpid summit]

Snail Shamans are in both kingdoms huh

[craggy smelt]

at least two

[limpid summit]

There is?

[near jasper]

Yeah

[sinful nimbus]

cut content isn't canon but this fits the agenda 🗣️

[near jasper]

"I shall not be?...
No more me?...
Sweet little thingssss...
To feed... To swell...
To cleanssse."

[limpid summit]

To feed... To swell...
To cleanssse...

Obv not canon but I think Skynx’s thought process is pretty clear here. It’s not seasoned like Nosk and it doesn’t have a giant lair. It’s farming east blue Silkeaters until it can get big and become an apex predator

[near jasper]

Dont ask why theres a speech quirk in that needolin dialogue

[limpid summit]

That’s why it doesn’t shapeshift

[near jasper]

Its weird

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t want to present itself as a threat to Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

My headcanon is still that it can't produce silk on its own to string up prey so it gathers it from the silkeaters

[limpid summit]

It wears Styx’s mask because that’s less conspicuous compared to shapeshifting into someone else

[limpid summit]

Do you think Nosk hunted Devouts and Weavers similarly

[near jasper]

Plus its not like people were meant to see it

[sinful nimbus]

idk if it could go for a weaver

[near jasper]

Its actively hiding

[random aspen]

was talking about clawlin

[limpid summit]

Bro last judge probably packed up like 10

Uninfected Nosk for sure

[sinful nimbus]

They lost to fayforn 💔

But yeah sure but the silk is kinda distinct visually

[drifting whale]

It read the mind of Styx and became Stynx

[dire lynx]

decapitated body next door, suspicious weirdo with upside-down head:

[limpid summit]

Have I told you my Fayforn theory

[sinful nimbus]

no send

[limpid summit]

Hornet has never seen the guy

For all she knows Styx could have been a violent criminal

And Skynx an altruistic hero

[dire lynx]

no, it ripped his head off and wears it

[limpid summit]

She’s actually very amicable and only chooses to kill Weavers because they murder 20 of her kids trying to get up the mountain

Doesn’t matter anymore in Hornet’s case since they’re haunted zombies

[near jasper]

Yk whats a funny thing

[drifting whale]

It killed him and then mimics him, pretty sure he still has his mask when dead

[limpid summit]

No his face is ripped off

Skynx is wearing his mask

[dire lynx]

wrong

[near jasper]

Shakra canonically goes through the entire citadel and didnt even bother mapping any of it

[limpid summit]

But that’s not mutually exclusive as far as Skynx being a Nosk it’s not some sort of gotcha

I already explained why Skynx would not shapeshift

[floral quiver]

I know.

My post was in reaction to the implication that not using tools and silk skills to their "fullest" or at all is inherently less fun. Which is why I made the post right below that one acknowledging that I wasn't attempting to continue the clawline conversation but was reacting to your post on its own.

[limpid summit]

Probably an affront to her

Maybe it’s harder to map actual buildings

[near jasper]

"this place so ass I aint gonna waste my time mapping this"

[random aspen]

i dont use red tools

and i called him boring for ragebait

[drifting whale]

alr nvm, i was wrong ig

[limpid summit]

Actually though like where is this on this

[random aspen]

the what

the neck?

[floral quiver]

Well okay then. I didn't know that.

[near jasper]

How does styx have so much silk

[limpid summit]

Oh shit it’s a full side view

I thought it was like side and back

Man I was tripping

[floral quiver]

A bit

[drifting whale]

Hes a giant ass spider

[limpid summit]

Anyway

The Skynx Nosk pipeline goes

acknowledge the clear thematic similarities -> acknowledge the reasons why overt similarities aren’t portrayed -> become a truther

[floral quiver]

I like that whatever Skynx is didnt just take the mask, but seemingly Styx's entire head clean off.

[limpid summit]

Well that’s where the meat is

The mask is just another one of his masks

Probably his favorite one though

[dire lynx]

people slime me for drawing greyroot - WL connections for only having visual similarites and then are like yeah skynx is a nosk

[limpid summit]

Why not both?

Skynx is a Nosk and WL/Greyroot are undeniably connected in some way

[floral quiver]

The connection is much less tenuous than a lot of "obviously objectively true" assertions around here

[random aspen]

skynx doesnt act like a nosk

[near jasper]

Not like the nosk we see

[random aspen]

if it was a nosk wouldnt it be imitating hornet

[near jasper]

It is?

[floral quiver]

It mimicks her

[limpid summit]

If it was a Nosk imitating Hornet it would die

[floral quiver]

Or at least does echolalea

[near jasper]

Silkeaters are weird creatures

[random aspen]

its like related to nosk but not exactly like nosk

but knowing tc its probably just nosk

[limpid summit]

It’s more strategic for a Nosk to physically adopt the characteristics of a local if it’s trying to hide than risk setting off Hornet by shapeshifting

[dire lynx]

skynx also just sounds nothing like nosk

[limpid summit]

Caretaker sounds nothing like ancestral mound shaman

[near jasper]

Doesnt nosk use the generic roaring sounds

[shut palm]

What would the "pantheons" or pharloom be called (and how would it tie into lore)

[near jasper]

No one knows

[dire lynx]

it recycles marrowmaw roar if you attack it

[limpid summit]

No idea

Might be similar to red memory where she visits her own subconscious

But we can only speculate

[shut palm]

Ya

[random aspen]

whys skynx tweaking but suddenly locks in here

[shut palm]

So what do u guys think abt it

[limpid summit]

He’s boutta eat

[dire lynx]

but when it speaks it has a unique voice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Eo3jqXXtM

[limpid summit]

Again if Skynx sounded like Nosk Hornet would KILL it

[dire lynx]

based on what?

[limpid summit]

Actually that might be a stretch

Never mind

It’s just the shapeshifting that would set her off

But overt Nosk similarities would raise questions about why Hornet just let a violent ambush predator pounce around

Is this another apathetic Hornet moment

Pharloom shall soon know the curse of this Nosk

[near jasper]

Skynx's claws we see look pretty close to nosk's claws near the knight thingy

[limpid summit]

That’s true but it’s not like those jointed claws are unique to Nosk

I like your spirit

[floral quiver]

I mean, Hornet herself is a violent ambush predator. 🙂

[dire lynx]

at least she isnt the other kind of predator tho, as much as some people want that

[near jasper]

How is styx not haunted

[limpid summit]

Some bugs just don’t get haunted

It’s inconsistent

TC wanted to have their cake by making haunting a physical affliction unlike Infection and eat it too by making you resist it with a strong will or something just like Infection

[near jasper]

The guy living in silk isnt haunted but garmond gets haunted for being too tired

[half horizon]

Yo, what kind of thing is Skynx? He doesn't have a shell, and he eats or uses silk eaters. He is clearly not a normal bug

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-gif-13956224

[craggy smelt]

don't worry about him, he's just my friend

[graceful grail]

https://music.apple.com/us/album/its-raining-somewhere-else/1528217465?i=1528217858

Toby Fox was on the Dies Idre way before TC

[graceful grail]

Everyone forgets that Nosk is INFECTED. Nosks species may be a shapeshift species, but that dosent always mean completely hostile.

[dire lynx]

nobody is forgetting that nosk is infected

[tawdry flare]

everyone and their MOM was on Dies Irae back in the day

[heavy path]

Which song does hornet play with silk with the hollow knight?

[idle mesa]

lets larp just this once

[foggy fractal]

the silksong presumably

[sick tinsel]

as if nosk isnt cute enough

[fading shard]

given the corpses I'd say nosk is probably just like that

[foggy stratus]

Why the fuck do people keep saying Larp in this context?

[idle mesa]

hello jane juliet lets larp

[foggy stratus]

What does this even mean???

[idle mesa]

red judas vs blue judas

[foggy stratus]

No i know it means Role playing but why did he say it in this none role playing context?

[dire lynx]

larp in this kind of context is calling someone out for not actually knowing the media/pretending to be a fan of it. they are roleplaying/posing as fans of a certain piece of media without having actually consumed it

[foggy fractal]

have y'all seen hk or hkss larpers 🤔

[heavy gyro]

The knight is the pale king

[dire lynx]

examples would be stuff like people calling Subaru "stairs guy" without having read the light novel/web novel up to the part the stair scene is in, or saying "she's literally me" when talking about tomoko when they havent actually watched the anime

[foggy stratus]

Get the FUCK OUT OF MY LORE CHANNEL!!!

[dire lynx]

or yeah, people who watched matpats video and are now spouting "the knight is PK" without actually having played the game and knowing what happens in it

[foggy stratus]

Isn't Subaru like a car brand tho?

[dire lynx]

subaru is a japanese name for a star cluster

[foggy stratus]

Huh.

[dire lynx]

the Pleiades cluster, or seven sisters

[dire lynx]

the car brand is named for the star cluster

and the subaru i was talking about is a character from my favourite anime who was also named for that cluster

[sick tinsel]

you can literally stand with the pale king ingame and its mandatory...

[lofty beacon]

That's js a game theory

[sinful nimbus]

TK becomes PK in a sense if you think about it

[foggy stratus]

They become a pale king, to a degree.

[low oracle]

Please stop the Matshat ragebait.

[low oracle]

That's like saying you are your father to a degree, which I suppose is true, but not really in that specific context and meaning. Neither did they take on the role, nor did it gain the Pale King's mind.

[twin dragon]

fym

its literally true

[foggy stratus]

No, they're pale(their shell is) and they're a king(king's brand), hence they're technically a pale king.

[stray fog]

Bro made a joke in the lore channel

You will be beheaded now /j

[low oracle]

King's brand doesn't make them a king since:
-non-binary (unless it's the title king >)
-(title king >) little ghost isn't a ruler

Their shell is pale:
-is Hornet a king now?

[foggy fractal]

Hornet is the pale king...

[random harbor]

Inventory item: King's Brand

Marks the bearer as King.
Hallownest's ancient places shall open before it.

@lexmolten used /inventory category: Item item: King's Brand

[low oracle]

Oh my god, he wanted him dead!!!
Nevermind, luckily he added a /j.
Jeez, I almost thought you were going to kill him.

[stray fog]

🔥

I wanted to indicate that Im not against making jokes in the lore channel

With the /j

[foggy stratus]

It literally marks them as king. That's what it do.

[low oracle]

But they really should be good jokes. Not blatantly saying random, false crap. More like speculating about Karmelita's fleshy dress.

[stray fog]

Yeah

[solar gale]

what

[lofty beacon]

I am the pale king
-matpat

[foggy fractal]

holy aura

[low oracle]

I guess, but also no. They don't really rule, aren't seen as the king and aren't even bearer of that shell beyond the game.

[solar gale]

okay but the knight is still the king of hallownest now due to the brand

[low oracle]

Theoretically they are king and should be king, technically they still aren't. A leader isn't one because of their title, a leader is a leader because of the people they lead (as a leader that leads).

[solar gale]

gang

It isnt that deep

[twin dragon]

everyone in hallownest is fucking DEAD

[foggy stratus]

It still marks them as king and as we see with THK, shades maintain the state of the Vessel's shell so if it was branded onto TK's shell, it's shade would retain the mark.

[lofty beacon]

But his products kinda suck

[solar gale]

what products

The knight isnt a seller

[low oracle]

I think you forgot the rose emoji, the skull emoji, the crying emoji, the "gng", the "ts", etc.

[solar gale]

[low oracle]

Rancid Eggs. Come on, it's literally in the name that they're RANCID.

[low oracle]

Not really. The void and infection are opposites, yes? THK has void as its life energy, as all vessels do. Just like soul, the void is inside of it (btw the black body isn't void, just black. same with Hornet, Tiso and such). The infection is also contained inside of it, not literally inside the mortal body but inside in a way unexplained (dream gate prison stuff). The infection bursting out from inside caused severe damage to the shade, to the point it's received a scar. Basically it was being burned from the inside outwards.
The King's brand explicitely is stated to have marked the shell, which also includes the black body. It isn't stated where it is located, but it definitely didn't burn through the shell, reaching the shade and injuring it enough to form a scar.

[modest trail]

does father of the flame have any cool lore? I thought it was a fun fight, no voice tho, what is its lore?

[foggy fractal]

we don't know much about it besides its a big totem meant to be a god that the burning bugs worship
inside it theres also a remains of a bug which wished to be set on fire which y'know happens during the fight
iirc after the fight the burning bugs also start lighting themselves on fire? heres a picture of burning buh

I feel like I'm missing something

[modest trail]

i liked that boss

but every other boss had some cool unkind lore that was shatter throughout the game

like gurr or karmelita

khan

[glacial warren]

I think the fact the Father and the Burning Bugs’ Lore remains obscure is intentional. The mystery adds to the spooky factor of their existence.

[modest trail]

Wisp thicket has the wisps and the cultists, the 2 worst enemys in the whole game imo

[glacial warren]

They’re this little group camping out right under the Citadel and above Bellhart, totally unnoticed and off everyone’s radars. It feels almost like no one was ever intended to find the Thicket, and it’s possible few Bugs know that place even exists.

[modest trail]

its a cool way to get to act 3

sorry 2

[stray fog]

Isnt the thicket what greymoor looked like in its prime

Dont ask me for a source

I dont have one
(I just heard this somewhere)

[glacial warren]

The Thicket is a little tiny sliver of bamboo forest above Greymoor. It’s largely wild, untamed natural land save for the presence of the Burning Bugs and their cult.

[modest trail]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-bravos-gif-24067547

[glacial warren]

The bamboo structures are seen in Greymoor and Sinner’s Road, so it is possible the Thicket is a glimpse into what the land was like before the Bugs came in and began settling here on the mountain.

[modest trail]

but why do the wisps exist, greymoor is pretty damp imo

[glacial warren]

The Wisps are conjured into existence by the Burning Bugs, like living Spells.

So those things and the Lanterns producing them are unique to the cult.

[modest trail]

of the lamb

[dire lynx]

no the whisps existed first

[glacial warren]

Might also be why they set up shop in the Thicket. It’s dry and secluded, tucked away in this little corner of the world no one cares about or notices.

[twin dragon]

The bugs "coexisted" with them

[lofty beacon]

And then hornet comes through and murders them all

Hi!

[glacial warren]

H o r n.

[dire lynx]

"These ones somehow learnt to call and guide the scorching Wisps that share their thicket. Whether through dominance or reverence is unclear."
-Burning bug journal entry

[glacial warren]

Ah, so the Thicket is just the Wisps’ habitat.

Likely why no one goes there, considering they risk being immolated and reduced to ash.

[twin dragon]

Some weird naturally occuring phenomenon

[edgy nebula]

more farmland-y

[twin dragon]

They seem to be alive aswell

[edgy nebula]

probably had heaps of bamboo though

[glacial warren]

Although it is odd to consider the Memorium has a Voltnest exhibit.

[dire lynx]

my thought is that it was a full bamboo forest like we see in the thicket, that was then cut down for farmland and housing, before being fully cleared out during dreg harvesting age

[glacial warren]

Like that’s a really tucked-away, off the beaten path location.

[twin dragon]

Verdania could also be

[edgy nebula]

possible

[twin dragon]

part of what graymoor was

lush cave

and yk its connected

But since we see it only in prince's dream, it's possibly an idealized version

[glacial warren]

Verdania was once a thriving, vast marshland, though it seems much of it had caved in and collapsed.

Reducing it all to that narrow tunnel.

Though clovers start growing again after the Prince is defeated, so it’s possible the environment will regenerate and recover.

[twin dragon]

The hearts power is gone so there's space for a new ecosystem

[glacial warren]

I think it might be recovering because of the death of its Heart. It will begin anew and sprout a new Heart somewhere down the line.

A shame neither he nor his love were able to see the proof that their land wasn’t totally lost.

[twin dragon]

The power seems to be permanently lost

Unless the ecosystem always lingers on

even if the heart isn't present

ecosystems can exist without them after all

[glacial warren]

The power will return as the ecosystem does. It will select a new entity, a leader figure to serve as the Heart of that domain.

[twin dragon]

Would far fields recover without karmelita's heart

[glacial warren]

The Fields will keep trucking, uncaring. The ants will recover eventually and a new Queen will be born at some point.

[twin dragon]

The heart was passed on for generations by that point though

[glacial warren]

Shellwood keeps sustaining even without Nyleth since it’s essentially an extension of her.

[twin dragon]

Her influence is fading

and its likely shellwood will rot away after we take her heart

[glacial warren]

Not fading, but there have been some hostile takeovers from parasitic plant-forms in the form of Sister Splinter and her Bramble minions, and the Greyroot.

[twin dragon]

Yeah

because nyleth's influence is fading

I think needolin dialogues talk about this

[glacial warren]

But nonetheless, the pale flowers keep growing and regenerating from all form of harm. Nyleth’s children will persist so long as the forest itself does.

[twin dragon]

Now that we've taken her heart though

[glacial warren]

Since the forest as a whole is an extension of Nyleth herself.

[twin dragon]

we know the hearts are tied to their ecosystem

[glacial warren]

Eh to an extent.

[twin dragon]

Her not having a heart makes this worse

[stray fog]

The plants are very different

[glacial warren]

The Heart is essentially an entity with a deep, natural bond to their ecosystem, to the nature of their habitat, and serves as a leader, a ruler or master of this domain.

[stray fog]

In greymoor and vedrania

[twin dragon]

Verdania is likely an idealized version of what real verdania was

[twin dragon]

How do you know this?

[glacial warren]

The loss of a Heart isn’t the end of the world for that location, as it’ll keep trucking and eventually a new Heart will come into power. The rule may change, but the domain itself sustains.

[twin dragon]

I dont think its explicitely stated

[stray fog]

Still, clovers and bamboos are very different

[twin dragon]

And yk, the plants are adequate for a lush cave

[stray fog]

The prince wouldn't have changed plant types or anything in his ideal version

[twin dragon]

We dont also see the point of transition between both

[twin dragon]

Ik

[stray fog]

True

[stray fog]

I wonder why hallownest didn't have hearts like that (as far as we know)

[glacial warren]

It seems to be the trend of how ‘Hearts’ work. Khann is the king of Karak and controls the coral crust itself. Karmelita is the Queen of the Skarr tribe and is a natural inhabitant of the Far Fields. Nyleth is unique since rather than being born of her ecosystem, her ecosystem is born from her, being an extension of Nyleth herself. The Clover Dancers were natural inhabitants of Verdania and its ruling Princes.

[stray fog]

There is a line about there being predecessors to the current hearts

[glacial warren]

In terms of what entities might be identifiable as ‘Hearts’ in Hallownest, Vespa would likely be viable. The entirety of the Hive is made by her workers and is essentially an extension of herself.

[stray fog]

Yeah if a queen ant is a heart then a queen bee could also be one

[twin dragon]

I guess ecosystems can exist without a heart

at one point it could develop

[glacial warren]

Most other leader figures can’t really qualify since most of them aren’t native to their domain’s ecosystem, a lot of them, I.E. Monomon and the White Lady, are external intrusions, foreigners.

[twin dragon]

the druid coming in clutch

[stray fog]

Like the moss grotto

[twin dragon]

Though hornet does mention how taking a heart ravages the ecosystem

when you take karmelita's

[glacial warren]

Ye it’ll upset the balance of power and leave a vacant metaphorical ‘throne’ that a new being will seek to fill.

[stray fog]

Live gilly reaction:

[glacial warren]

But the ecosystem itself will likely keep trucking.

So long as it’s not irrevocably converted or destroyed in full.

Like, Herrah can’t really be considered the Heart of Deepnest, as she’s not native to it. Nosk would likely qualify, being the master of that place.

[stray fog]

What about the sire of deepnest

[glacial warren]

True but that figure is ded by the time the game rolls in. Vacant seat of power has to be filled.

Plus Nosk is bar nothing the toughest predator in all of Deepnest, if not all of Hallownest itself.

[stray fog]

Almost everyone is dead by that time lol

[dire lynx]

This giant, old ant... Her death seems recent, but her presence here...
Was it her? Could it be? The strength that sustained these caves? If so, what will happen now?
Hornet: They will wither and fade... And you may sadly know it was my needle that brought her end.

[glacial warren]

Ye. Herrah is technically alive but in her forever sleep. And again she can’t really qualify as a Heart since she’s foreign to Deepnest.

[stray fog]

Would mr mushroom qualify as a heart for the fungal wastes?

Is he even native to hallownest though

[glacial warren]

Not sure. The Mantis Lords might qualify as a Heart, as they’re natives to the Wastes.

[stray fog]

Or that huge dead mushroom with the dialogue about foresight

[glacial warren]

The Mushroom Deity might have qualified, though it’s ded by the time we encounter it.

[stray fog]

Overall, hallownest probably didn't have old hearts imo

[solar gale]

What's up chat

What are we loreing about

[stray fog]

Did hallownest have old hearts

If so, who were they

[solar gale]

Hallownest only had one surviving civilisation after the collapse, that is the mantis tribe. Everything else fell to the infection, so idts

WL could be a heart?

[stray fog]

She isn't really connected to the local ecosystem like nyleth, khann, karmelita

[solar gale]

True

I mean we literally ripped out two of the four hearts from distant memories

Hmm

Oh wait

Unn

[stray fog]

True

[solar gale]

Yeah

[modest trail]

design teir list, not everyone is here

some stuff is in the wrong spot as you can tell

[sinful nimbus]

lace 1 is good but lace 2 isn't 😭

[modest trail]

ik ik

trobio is in wrong spot as well

[stray fog]

Pale stag should be higher lowkey

If we're ranking according to lore

[modest trail]

its design to lore

how the design fits the lore

[stray fog]

Oh

[dire lynx]

why is watcher so low, then?

and crawfather

and almost every other kinda hate it tiered character

[modest trail]

because its lazy

the craw father is a lazy design

also Im dogshit at teirlist

i dont follow my own rules somethings

[foggy stratus]

Watcher at the Edge and Torbio deserve more love.

[foggy stratus]

Isn't it strictly mortal powers only, so no Higher Beings?

[foggy stratus]

Unknown, but if they did i think the best candidates would be Vespa and The Mantis Lords.

[stray fog]

We don't know if that's a requirement

[heavy gyro]

I said that to demonstrate larping 😭

[foggy stratus]

I swear on the Nine that was said somewhere. I'm trying to find the dialoge rn.

It is said to be mortal power specifically by Chapel Maid

As well as all of the Old Hearts we see easily able to die, age or have their territory taken by another.

[stray fog]

Oh

[foggy stratus]

'Oh' indeed.

[chrome geode]

wait guys

i may be stupid for not realising this earlier

but

PHANTOM LOOKS LIKE SILK

well

looked

is this lore??

i think it is

[chrome geode]

to present my case

in case there are any doubters

when we bind silk, she begins unravelling and her silk "hair" fades

she's left with the same kind of frayed scalp as phantom

and phantom has unravelled and frayed over time

so silk may not be the worst mother of all time

[lyric rose]

there are worse mothers in fiction

cough cough, odalia blight, cough cough, rainflower, cough cough, the other mother, cough cough

[chrome geode]

yesyes

[floral quiver]

I genuinely feel the need to ask if this is a bit.

[severe abyss]

How long do you think Silksong takes in-world?
I’ve seen people say weeks, month, and even upwards of a year.
My personal theory is that a purely completed 100% save, including everything that doesn’t add to the percentage, takes about three to three and a half years time in-world.
But idk. Am I crazy? It feels like time passes a lot around you while you’re playing.

[floral quiver]

Curious about your reasoning.

Genuinely

[chrome geode]

oh was it that bad

[floral quiver]

Less "bad" more I can't tell if you just reached Phantom for the first time or genuinely didn't notice the intentional similarities until now.

[chrome geode]

i'm at the final boss 😭

[floral quiver]

Aaah

My apologies!

[chrome geode]

no it's bc i didn't pay attention while binding gms

[narrow horizon]

Phantom is a Silk construct, like Lace

[floral quiver]

Yes, the similarities between the two are intentional

[chrome geode]

and also i've seen people ask why phantom doesn't look like lace and gms

[floral quiver]

They are "biological" Mother and daughter

[severe abyss]

Mainly just how much happens while your away. Especially with Bellheart.
While all the repairs could 100% have been done within a few months if they were speeding it, I don’t feel like they were.
Also some of the more subtle things. Like how characters move to different places, and how many different people you see in Songclave.
Again. It’s all easily explained with a few months, but I do like the feeling of time passing.

[chrome geode]

i know they're intentional and i know that silk created phantom it's mainly just the people who ask why they don't look alike

[narrow horizon]

no it's a few hours trust they're just really fast

[floral quiver]

Same. I cant see more than a year passing myself

[narrow horizon]

cuz phantom has a special interest in phantom of the opera and is a total dork

[foggy stratus]

Phantom is old and frayed. Iirc while you're binding GMS she starts to look more like Phantom.

[narrow horizon]

she kinda just turns into a little armless legless turd

[floral quiver]

Though multiple years passing does make Hornet's whole "My new bellhome is temporary, I swear" dialogue even funnier to me.

[severe abyss]

Precisely the plan >:)

[hasty tiger]

its definitely canon that hornet carries around a lucky knight and pure vessel plushie

[modest trail]

does phantom canically go by they them

ive seen many call them/her that

[severe abyss]

I think they still go by “sister” and that confuses people. But they seem to canonically go by they/them.

[modest trail]

how do we know tho

[tawdry flare]

they’re only ever referred to as “they” in game

[modest trail]

oh okay

thanks

[chrome geode]

I do like the thought of the pilgrimage being a multiple year long thing that takes so long only for them to be killed at the grand gate

Well

Lore wise

[severe abyss]

Exactly!

There’s no way the pilgrimage is only a couple months long. Not with how all of the pilgrim characters talk about it.

[sinful nimbus]

Worth noting Phantom is only called they by the journal which repeatedly does that even to gendered characters

Such as Garmond Last Judge or Sister Splinter

Queer rep would be nice ofc but imo its pretty tenuous

[chrome geode]

and tc is a little more obvious when it comes to queer rep (ze'mer, GP, even the vessels can be considered)

[fading shard]

exactly

[sick sequoia]

So comparing the two places, how much of Hallownest would be needed to overtake Pharloom

Because based on lore alone I’m pretty sure just the Pale King and either The Knight/Pure Vessel could do it themselves, no need for the army

The only being that feels like they could pose a reasonable threat is GMS and all of her danger comes from everyone in Pharloom having silk in their shells, which the Hallownest people don’t

[fading shard]

gms would be asleep and no haunting

so no problem

I personally don't get why in hallonest vs pharloom debates they keep mentioning gms, nobody is even an ally of hers in pharloom

and for a debate for the two kingdoms in their primes you literally have to take gms out of the equation because she caused the haunting

it's when people bring up Hornet or the vessels when they only exist because of the dire situation the infection caused

Prime hallownest doesn't have them

[sick sequoia]

I only bring her up because she’s like… the only thing that comes close to the power level of Hallownest’s beings lol

[fading shard]

she's not even that strong

The pale king, radiance, nightmare heart are far stronger then her

[sick sequoia]

Exactly my point lol

[fading shard]

the only reason why the haunting even happened as said in some dialogue

is because of the idiocy of the citadel and them using her silk

they literally plagued the entire enviroment and ecosystem with silk

giving her a bunch of free minds to take over whilst asleep

[floral quiver]

Prove that the Radiance or Pale King are stronger.

The power of Gods in Hollow Knight's universe is nebulous at best.

[fading shard]

I feel as though the fact that looking at the pale king hurts you because of his radiance is proof enough

or the fact that his dead corpse outputted so much power that the godseekers could trackdown hallownest

thanks to his afterglow of power

or maybe the fact that he get's compared to the everbloom by emilitia

the fact that he has been shown to have insane sealing capabilities

stuff regarding the dream realm

training the pure vessel, etc

[floral quiver]

The pure vessel is terrible, though. Like actively bad at nailfighting.

[fading shard]

that's rage baiting right?

[lyric rose]

B I g n a i l

[idle mesa]

i mean

[floral quiver]

No.

[fading shard]

The pure vessel is supposed to be incredibly powerful wdym T_T

[idle mesa]

i dont think the priority of the pv was nail art

considering their purpose is

locked up

[floral quiver]

Also, the Pure Vessel isnt real.

[lyric rose]

PV swings a nail the size of a mantis like it’s a knife

[idle mesa]

your dreaming pv was never real

[fading shard]

that's quite literally supposed to be what the hollow knight looked like before getting sealed wdym

[floral quiver]

Like, the whole point of Godhome is that they're imprints on the Godseeker's mind bases on ideals, not reality.

[idle mesa]

this

[fading shard]

what

[idle mesa]

pv is the godhomes intepretation of thk at his peak

their*

[floral quiver]

And it swings it badly

[idle mesa]

whoops

[lyric rose]

Wields it better than Oro and Mari

[fading shard]

It's stated to be the hollow knight trained and raised to prime form

[floral quiver]

Like, even its ideal isn't good at technical nailfighting

[fading shard]

T_T

[idle mesa]

yeah

according to godseekers

[floral quiver]

And its prime form sucks at using the nail

[fading shard]

no according to the unbiased journal entry

the note below it states the godseekers opinion

[idle mesa]

yes but

idk

wait whats the point

[fading shard]

that'sIt's been proven plenty of times that the top part of the journal is the "universal truth of information about them"

[idle mesa]

also i have never heard this

but i havent read journal lore since void idol so yk

who knows

[fading shard]

The top part of the journal literally gives information that the narrators below it don't even know about such as with the hunter

[lyric rose]

Well it states pretty true info much of the time

Like saying what insert enemy here attacks with

[idle mesa]

dude i gotta see this what

[lyric rose]

“Attacks by spitting acid” cue enemy spitting something or other

[lofty beacon]

Proboscis

[fading shard]

top part: Forgotten champion of the Colosseum, drawn away by strange obsessions.

This odd creature is unaffected by and unaware of the disease drifting through the caverns. Its madness is all its own

hunter's narration

this is for the pale lurker

it's been a given and showcased that the top part of the journal is one that gives us unbiased information

[lyric rose]

One of the bottom notes is “Extremely Amusing Creature”

[lofty beacon]

Bro was starting to give up

[floral quiver]

Like, I'm not impressed with the Nailmasters either, but they wield their blades with much more visible finesse than the Pure Vessel. Its swings are open, wide and barely controlled while theirs are tightly controlled and lack any unnecessary motion.

[lyric rose]

Oro wields his nail like a club

Sly says so and he’s the Great Nailsage

[floral quiver]

See, the thing about Sly is that, being the generic wise sword master no matter how technically proficient his former students are with their blades he's going to say that.

I don't take his words as objective truth because I can see how Oro fights with my eyes.

(And to be completely honest, Sly swings his oversized nail more like a club than his students do)

[lyric rose]

Pure vessel can parry, something otherwise only found in hornet in Hollow Knight

[foggy stratus]

What's going on rn?

[lyric rose]

Gadget says PV is a terrible nail fighter

[floral quiver]

Mhm!

[foggy stratus]

Gadget is wrong.

[floral quiver]

Just visibly bad at using a nail

[foggy stratus]

And who's to say that's not how a nail is meant to be wielded?

[floral quiver]

Mostly because its moveset is based on the Hollow Knight

[lyric rose]

That’s the thing

Except for Pure Vessel it’s faster, and more powerful

Due to better physical strength

[floral quiver]

The Nailmasters not fighting with wild barely controlled swings that start with a wind up that leaves them wide open?

[floral quiver]

And that doesn't make it better at fighting with a nail. All that does is shore up it's technical ineptitude.

[lyric rose]

It’s harder to communicate skill with a weapon in two dimensions

[floral quiver]

Silksong does it extremely well.

[lyric rose]

Because you can’t see the arcs of a weapon as well

[candid linden]

gadget loves comparing the animating of a 10 year old game vs a 2026 game

[lyric rose]

Technical and artistic improvement

[foggy stratus]

They actually do seem to start with a very large wind up.

[lyric rose]

Basically a longer version of Watcher Knight’s basic attack

[foggy stratus]

And they do kinda just swing it around with abandon.

like a club

And they stop after each slash to wind up their next one.

[lyric rose]

Sheo shows much more talent despite, or perhaps because, of using a brush

[foggy stratus]

He also was like the most skilled one as well.

[lyric rose]

Yeah. He was.

[floral quiver]

Not as bad a wind up as the Hollow Knight or Pure Vessel.

The PVs windup just leaves them entirely open.

[foggy stratus]

Imo it is as bad as PV's. As well as them stopping after each slash instead of going straight into the next one.

Something PV does seem to do.

But then again PV uses reverse grip which is a sin in it of itself.

[lyric rose]

Oro and Mato slam their nails into the ground for the second hit like it were a club

[foggy stratus]

Bro.

That's honestly worse than reverse grip.

[floral quiver]

Oro and Meto's windups come out of a guard position rather than holding their blades behind their heads leaving them open if an enemy chooses to interrupt their strike

[foggy stratus]

They're gonna dull and chip the nail super fast.

[lyric rose]

Yeah

[foggy stratus]

The "guard" position also seems to be holding it up to their head.

[floral quiver]

Except they very much don't?

They do a vertical strike but their blades never touch the ground. Even their aerial slam doesnt end with their blades hitting the earth.

[floral quiver]

No. Their opening strike starts from a downward guard position each time. Their second strike starts with their blades off the line of their bodies, but the way they hold it during the transition between strikes means that if a person were to strike they could easily move to defend.

[foggy stratus]

Which they just don't. Ever.

And from what I see its up to their head. I just need to figure out how to screen shot on this new phone.

[floral quiver]

I'm watching the fight as I duscuss this with you.

I can see how they fight.

[foggy stratus]

I also am.

And from what I see before the first of their two slash combo they start it up to their head and hold it their for a solid like 1/2 ,second

[floral quiver]

They move from their standard position to a downward guard position, then start their strike.

It's a very visible animation.

The Pure Vessel doesnt have guard positions built into its striking animations, its position before striking leaves it entirely open and vulnerable.

[marble oasis]

It’s because of his learning to use a brush, but if he swapped back to a nail he’d be even better

[near jasper]

Noticed something

The top of the lace 1 arena looks like a silk soar spot a bit

[limpid summit]

PV is not a bad nail user

It was trained to fight defensively because any major injury means Rad leaks out

Every strike is careful and deliberate

It’s not going to try and blitz you and leave itself open in the process

[foggy stratus]

Also it might be a more spell reliant fighter than a nail reliant fighter.

Using the nail as more of a secondary accent tool than its primary.

[near jasper]

Plus the other 2 arenas are silk soar spots

And lace 1 has a weirdly tall arena too

[floral quiver]

It doesnt fight defensively, though. Its defense is one of its major visible weaknesses swordplaywise.

[limpid summit]

Well a boss in a 2D game that parries all the time is bad boss design

[foggy stratus]

PV/THK's biggest sword fighting sin is using reverse grip.

That's it basically.

[graceful grail]

Just use Beast Crest to go thru blocks. Or attack during her attack animation. Or dont.

[marble oasis]

The glaze is insane bruh oh my god

[lunar wing]

diego brando, is that you? can you be come scary for proof?

[floral quiver]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-30-2024/31vwls.gif

[craggy smelt]

Hollow Knight returns for DLC boss

i mean it

[lunar wing]

quadruple damage, 10x speed, 10,000hp

[limpid summit]

Well it was trained by the best

[floral quiver]

I'm not talking mechanically, although good mechanical design doesn't hurt. I'm talking about the animations used.

Hollow Knight's and Pure Vessel's attack animations show poor form and leave them open to attack.

The only reason it doesnt affect anything is because Hollow Knight lacks the mechanical ability to interrupt attacks.

[limpid summit]

Why doesn’t Radiance just fly slightly up outside of our reach and bombard us with constant lasers

She must be weak and stupid

[floral quiver]

Not a similar consideration. Other characters are shown to be visibly proficient swordfighters in Hollow Knight (using guard positions in their animations, keeping movement controlled etc.)

The Pure Vessel's animations don't include those things.

[limpid summit]

I don’t see no one else doing PV’s dash slash

[fallen tulip]

is this not sk lore

[limpid summit]

PV is too cool

And idk, nail users in Silksong to compare it to

[floral quiver]

Basically anyone who uses a swordlike weapon. One of Silksong's big improvements is that enemies are both animated and mechanically designed to be visually proficient at the combat style they're said to be trained in.

[limpid summit]

No I didn’t mean that

As in, they exist

For the purpose of grounding

Anyways I see what you mean

Neat how PV is the strongest non HB without formal weapon training

[floral quiver]

I'm not confident in it being the strongest.

Mostly because "strength" in Hollow Knight is nebulous.

I think that Hornet could beat the Pure Vessel in a straight fight.

Now it wouldn't be a wash thanks to its spellcraft, but I'm confident she could win.

[floral quiver]

And what do you mean by grounding if I may ask?

I think I get what you mean, but I'd like to make sure I'm not misinterpreting

[limpid summit]

Sorry

Not having HK convos in here

[limpid summit]

Full power Hornet (by her own admission) is treated as an obstacle mid-game TK must overcome in order to stand a change against weakened THK

It’s not like she becomes massively stronger in SS

She would not win

[grave stream]

Knight wins

[floral quiver]

She very much is though?

Like, in her fights with the Knight she doesnt even use runes when attacking.

Her "silk spear" is just throwing her needle without the runic spell that makes it powerful, dangerous and fast.

[grave stream]

Knight is more agile close-up

[floral quiver]

If she is intended to be the same between games then she spent her fights sandbagging

[grave stream]

i don't think she's the same inbetween games

she does probably get stronger with SK

[limpid summit]

Yes she gets weaver spells

PK spells are stronger

[floral quiver]

Unquantifiable

[limpid summit]

Spells from being that exists above all others vs Weaver spells

Deductive reasoning

[floral quiver]

It fires more spells, but how strong they are can't really be determined unless one assumes "bigger is better"

[limpid summit]

PK is better

[floral quiver]

Again, an unquantifiable assumption.

[limpid summit]

Pale nails! Save me!

[limpid summit]

He is

It’s quantifiable

[floral quiver]

Hornet's runic abilities are numerous and diverse. Pure Vessel can do two.

[limpid summit]

He presumably has limitless soul

[floral quiver]

Then quantify it.

[limpid summit]

Probably knows a few things

[floral quiver]

"Presumably". The knight doesnt have infinite soul, and they're literal siblings.

[limpid summit]

Not PV

Notice I said He

Pale King would have taught PV the spells

[floral quiver]

Oooh. Sorry.

[floral quiver]

And?

[limpid summit]

And PV would use the spells

[floral quiver]

You act like PK being a god means he is automatically more skilled in spellcraft and swordplay than anyone else when that's not an assumption one can confidently make because the Pale King has very little known about him or his abilities.

Having more in the tank says nothing about technical ability

Or ability to teach.

[limpid summit]

PV was raised and trained to prime form

Meant to be the last line of defense against anyone strong enough to break the seals

But nah Hornet would win

Even if he simply gave the spells to PV without ensuring they were used at their peak (which would have been weird) they would still be massively strong

I can accept they might not win best nail user

Competition is steep

But PV is the strongest vessel in history

With the knight the strongest of today

Probably beats post SS Hornet high diff

[floral quiver]

Prove it.

Bigness (of spells or otherwise) doesnt equal strength.

[limpid summit]

Size of spells is not my evidence

Nor size of vessel

[floral quiver]

Then what is?

What is your evidence?

[limpid summit]

The vessel raised and trained to prime form meant to defend itself against anyone who might break the impenetrable seals endowed with god spells is stronger than Hornet who was trained by Vespa and has Weaver spells?

[floral quiver]

That's not evidence. That's an assumption.

[limpid summit]

These are things the game tells us

I’m saying two things and making an educated assumption

Should have learned to silk teleport like FS

[gentle aspen]

PV fucking sucks and would get mid diffed by soul warrior

[floral quiver]

And just watching the Vessel fight says otherwise.

"It was trained to prime form so it must be the most powerful thing that isnt a god" isn't an educated assumption, considering that it's shown abilities aren't more quantifiably powerful than anything else.

[lunar wing]

Someone's angry because sbr ep2 hasn't dropped yet

[gentle aspen]

anyways if this is a nonsensical powerscaling argument between characters there’s literally no way to measure that in any meaningful manner just based on what we see

[floral quiver]

Visible blade skill is what I was measuring.

It's a terrible nailfighter

[limpid summit]

I don’t think we should downplay characters based on gameplay attack windows

That’s a slippery slope

Again, Radiance

[floral quiver]

I'm not. I'm downplaying it based directly off of its animation

[lone folio]

Are we arguing about PV's power level?

[floral quiver]

That and skill yes.

I'm of the opinion it's "powerful but nebulous" and not "the most powerful thing in existence outside gods"

[limpid summit]

No character slashes faster with a blade as large I’m not sure what you mean

Obviously it’s not hindered by the grip

[lone folio]

He's an alright spell user with some pretty good nail skills but that's it 🤷‍♂️ he does also have void spells which is a nice bonus ig

[floral quiver]

Its form is terrible. It leaves itself open to attack every time it prepares to strike.

[lone folio]

Honestly he's probably on nightmare king Grimms power level

[floral quiver]

It's just that Hollow Knight lacks the ability to interrupt attack animations

So it can't be taken advantage of

[lone folio]

Though Grimm probably doesn't have as much experience

[floral quiver]

Beyond damaging it, I mean. You can damage it when its spinning up its strike, but it will still launch the attack

[marble oasis]

Binding vow

[limpid summit]

Heavenly aura restriction

[floral quiver]

The Pure Vessel doesnt have any experience, to be clear. Training isn't experience. Or rather experience hardens training.

[foggy stratus]

So does Oro and Mato.

[limpid summit]

The great nailsage leaves himself open

In battles of the nail sometimes you have to sacrifice for a nuke attack

[floral quiver]

No they don't animation wise. Their opener starts with them moving into a down guard position before striking

[foggy stratus]

And being in a "guard" doesn't fucking matter if you don't move to block any attack coming at you.

[floral quiver]

It does when considering implied skill.

The Nailmasters are visually shown going into guard before their attacks, Pure Vessel is not.

[foggy stratus]

And then there's their atrocious second slash.

[floral quiver]

Pure Vessel's strikes are fast but its opener leaves it badly open for an enemy

[foggy stratus]

Also they swing their nail mroe like a club, especially with that over head strike.

[floral quiver]

You mean the one where they could move from strike position to a guard near instantly?

[foggy stratus]

And who's to say PV can't do the same by just adjusting its nail grip?

[limpid summit]

Lol why does Sly even use Cyclone Slash at all

Bum nailsage

No strategic advantage there

[lone folio]

"Oro you oaf.... You wield your nail... like a club..."

[foggy stratus]

Exactly!

[floral quiver]

Because it doesn't

Both positions taken by the Nailsages during their two hit combo are ones where their defense isn't visibly broken, that they don't is mechanics. The Pure Vessel's animation lacks that consideration

[limpid summit]

TC who put the animation in game to show PV is going to slash forward:

[swift needle]

Wt are we discussing

[floral quiver]

Pure Vessel nail skill compared to other characters

[limpid summit]

Either PV’s training was somehow incomplete or it’s a simple gameplay indicator that has little bearing on its actual skill

If you get in front to attempt to to exploit a weak point it would slash you three times with a large nail

In a real fight it might teleport away where’s the gameplay

[swift needle]

I mean it's only gameplay wise that he has openings

Lore wise he is specially trained by the pk

And outgrew it's siblings

Due to this training

[floral quiver]

That doesnt mean anything, though.

It's visible skill shows the training was bad!

[swift needle]

?

[swift needle]

Visible skill as in gameplay

[gentle aspen]

it’s a boss fight though

[floral quiver]

The Pure Vessel constantly leaves itself open in its animation.

[gentle aspen]

You’re like, saying a boss is leaving itself open during animations

of course that’s gonna happen

[floral quiver]

Animation is the key point because other bosses dont

[gentle aspen]

they do, though?

[swift needle]

This is the same as saying the strongest pokemon in the pokedex is weak gameplay wise

[floral quiver]

The Nailmasters are constantly in guard positions during their strikes.

[swift needle]

Arceus is the god of Pokemon

[foggy stratus]

I'm just going to point out that this is a memory from probably very, very long ago. Memories can warp, distort and change over time.

[foggy stratus]

Except that time they aren't but "they could easily move into one almost instantly".

[swift needle]

But that doesnt mean he's gonna be good gameplay wise

[gentle aspen]

no? Often times they have large windups and leave themselves wide open after or before attacking iirc?

[foggy stratus]

[floral quiver]

My literal memory or the imprint of the Vessel in game?

[foggy stratus]

In game.

[swift needle]

The devs have to make bosses actually playable and fair

[limpid summit]

Gadget why does Rad make a slow moving beam of light cross the screen during a desperate fight for her life

[swift needle]

Ya

[floral quiver]

They dont. Having watched them their windup is much quicker than the Vessel and their positions are always on guard animationwise

[limpid summit]

Second most powerful being in the game

[gentle aspen]

What exactly do you mean by “on guard”

[marble oasis]

The Knight is just FTL

[gentle aspen]

massively faster than light even

[marble oasis]

You’re doing powerscaling like a chump apple

[swift needle]

How is he FTL

[gentle aspen]

erm
rad is a light

ergo she’s light speed

[swift needle]

Son💔

[gentle aspen]

we dodge light speed attacks

duh

[foggy stratus]

Wrong one oops.

[swift needle]

Making stuff up now💔

[floral quiver]

Okay. In swordplay being "on guard" means being in such a position with body and sword that, if an enemy attempts a strike, you can quickly and easily move your blade to intercept theirs.

What I mean by the Nailmasters being on guard in their animation is that the positions they take before their strikes are such that they would be able to guard themselves if someone were to strike at them.

[foggy stratus]

TK is light speed jsut like how all force users are light speed

[swift needle]

😭 ✌️

[gentle aspen]

why is pv not in this position? Because they’re holding their weapon in reverse grip?

[foggy stratus]

Then why tf don't they? If they're on guard give a reasonable in lore reason why they don't block TK's swings.

[gentle aspen]

I mean they literally show that they can transition to a parrying state at a moment’s notice and they have moves that make it impossible to approach

so like

why is that even an issue

[swift needle]

It's js gameplay vro

💔

[gentle aspen]

I can’t lie this feels like a bit of a nitpick to say that THK is unskilled/lacking with a nail

[swift needle]

Would you rather fight boundless infinity or any radiance 2💔

[floral quiver]

The Vessel isn't on guard. Its position is such that its blade wouldn't be able to successfully defend itself from a strike.

And yes the reverse grip is a big part. Also that its windup involves it stretching its blade arm out behind itself for a second or two.

[swift needle]

Would you rather fight boundless infinity pure vessel 💔

[limpid summit]

I’mh literally the biggest MMHB defender

He’s outerversal

[swift needle]

It's js gameplay

Tc had to make it playable somehow

So they naturally had to give pv openings

[floral quiver]

I'd rather its animation show more skill rather than just being the Hollow Knight but faster

[swift needle]

That's called good boss designs

[floral quiver]

No?

The boss is fine

Mechanically it's a fine boss

[gentle aspen]

but it does transition from that to another state in which they can seamlessly, and like again, you’re just looking at a single animation to claim they’re not that skilled

when we know that animations often don’t show the skill of characters

BV is canonically skilled with a nail but it looks like it waves that thing around wildly

so again

what is the purpose of this

[marble oasis]

massive moss higher being?

[gentle aspen]

mister mushroom you daft man

[floral quiver]

... yes they do because two sword using characters have more visible technical skill.

[floral quiver]

BV?

[swift needle]

💔

[gentle aspen]

okay you’re just being obtuse at this point bye

[marble oasis]

yeah probably should have got that one actually

[foggy stratus]

Said two charecters look like theyre swinging their nails like a club. One of which canonically does swing his nail around like a club.

[swift needle]

Your argument has no basis gadget😭

And what point are we tryna prove🥺

That the pv is unskilled?

[foggy stratus]

"This one animation has them open for attacks so they arent skilled" like dude its one animation and you're basing their entire skill level off it.

[marble oasis]

Fraud vessel is crazy

[swift needle]

Sealed fraud

[gentle aspen]

most vessels have fraudulent sword skills

[floral quiver]

Because outside "they were trained to their peak" thats all we have

[foggy stratus]

It is crazy. Ungodly so.

[limpid summit]

Why doesnt Hornet jump high or target enemies with her midair needle dashes anymore? Is she nerfed?

[swift needle]

The other vessels were NOT 💔

Only the pv

Had special training

[foggy stratus]

From the fucking meta text. That's like arguing with TC themselves.

They are skilled. Go cry about your one animation of them being open.

[marble oasis]

“Its full potential” and it’s still ahh 💔

[floral quiver]

Then they should have actually done something with its animation rather than just using the Hollow Knights!

[limpid summit]

Prove yourself ready to face it. I'll not hold back. My needle is lethal and I'd feel no sadness in a weakling's demise.

[swift needle]

SON😭 😭 😭

[limpid summit]

Lmaoooo 😐😐😐

[gentle aspen]

you do know TC are people who don’t know everything about sword combat and the vast majority of people don’t know what optimal swordplay is?

[limpid summit]

Can you not trust the text and in-game implications rather than attempting to analyze a window for dumb players

Explain why Radiance doesn’t just fill the screen with lasers please

[foggy stratus]

From a gameplay perspective it is just a buffed THK. That's what it is. TC doesn't want a boss at the end of a fairly difficult boss rush to be obscenely hard.

[swift needle]

This gotta be rage bait

[gentle aspen]

The bulk of my knowledge comes from sellsword arts and you’re just nitpicking an animation and using that as a basis when the devs aren’t even like, hema fencers or anything

of course they’re not gonna split hairs over proper guard techniques or grips

[limpid summit]

Yeah okay joker I know big words too

[foggy stratus]

-# that's also where most of my sword knowledge comes from

[marble oasis]

Do you

[limpid summit]

Spaghetti

[gentle aspen]

these BUMS can’t even make a good sequel

[limpid summit]

Would you say you researched the sword art online

[marble oasis]

It’s spelt spagedy

[gentle aspen]

This js why she left you

[foggy stratus]

No, its pasghetti

[limpid summit]

☹️

[limpid summit]

Thank you zorinus

Because, um, there’s Zor in all of us

[floral quiver]

But two of their characters who are supposed to be skilled swordsmen do use sensible positioning!

That's my issue!

They already have characters that show they know the basics of swordplay and I'm not going to just go "Oh the Pure Vessel is actually a skilled fighter, I'll ignore its animations" when there are examples in the same game that showed better technique. I'm going to assume the Pure Vessel's just not that good a swordsman and relies mostly on spellcraft.

[gentle aspen]

if you actually read what folks have been saying you’d know that one of these supposed skilled swordsman wields their weapon like a club and gets criticized for it

you have two examples of proper technique and then assume everyone must also follow this

[marble oasis]

Also they did just reuse THK’s animations and its body is actively falling apart so

[gentle aspen]

bro tc animates shit to be cool and also be a decent fight

[floral quiver]

And I don't believe them because I can see otherwise!

[foggy stratus]

Yes. Value the gameplay over the actual in game information.

Galaxy brain over here everyone.

[gentle aspen]

“I don’t believe a person who trained the person I’m complimenting because it doesn’t fit my agenda”

Genuine JJK type argumentation

this mf takes oda as a source

[foggy stratus]

Let's all agree Gadget is wrong and call it a night.

[limpid summit]

You know Joker

[floral quiver]

... I don't believe the poster who thinks they swing their swords like clubs.

[limpid summit]

Can I go off topic for a second

[limpid summit]

The great nailsage?

[floral quiver]

No.

[gentle aspen]

it’s literally verbatim what Sly says about Oro

which they have been SAYING

[floral quiver]

And he as a fictional character can believe what he wants.

I think he's actively incorrect and hyper critical of his students but whatever, fictional wise old master.

[foggy stratus]

Yeah I'm going to trust the actual teacher over your interpretation of an animation.

And for the record it looks like Oro and Mato swing their nails like clubs in the fight.

[limpid summit]

PV’s nail techniques are bad, I would no. What? No of course I don’t believe the highest authority of nail users why would I

[gentle aspen]

😐

[foggy stratus]

As well as Oro having the most brute force reliant nail art of tbe three.

[gentle aspen]

yeah

[floral quiver]

Because he's visibly incorrect!

[foggy stratus]

More than likely using more momentum than structure in its damage.

[foggy stratus]

He isnt.

[marble oasis]

If he’s not as good as his students why is he head of a higher Pantheon

[floral quiver]

Did I say that?

[marble oasis]

Sly must be better than his students

So his estimation of their abilities must be correct

[limpid summit]

Oro says Sheo far outshined him

He understands his own shortcomings

Why can’t we

[gentle aspen]

this reminds me of mihawk slander

[limpid summit]

Do you think Sly is stronger than VH TK because it has a nail

[floral quiver]

Or they're extremely critical because that's his character

He's the generic wise old master that will always find fault of his students no matter how technically skilled they are.

[gentle aspen]

I don’t know why you’re ascribing traits to Sly that aren’t really supported by his dialogue

[limpid summit]

It was stated in CFYOW

[floral quiver]

... because i can recognize stock characters when I see them.

[foggy stratus]

Sure you can.

[limpid summit]

Gadget when you get to the point of ignoring in-game evidence (not gameplay) to make assumptions based on attack animations (gameplay)

[gentle aspen]

he’s not though

[limpid summit]

fails to recognize The Strongest

[gentle aspen]

You’re just saying this because he shares traits with other older master characters

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[limpid summit]

Do you think sly eats slop and shit just because like idk Yoda does

[gentle aspen]

sharing traits, ie being an old master doesn’t mean he shares every trait with them lmao

Especially when he literally doesn’t ever show some weird excessive criticism nor is he implied to be wrong

You decided as such because muh boss animations

[floral quiver]

One of the traits he does share is downplaying his students despite them being acknowledged masters of their craft

[gentle aspen]

“Downplaying”
alright

you genuinely just making shit up for the love of the game here

[foggy stratus]

So I can say my swim coach down plays my accomplishments because he said I need to kick more?

[floral quiver]

"Oro swings his nail like a club"

boss fight shows Oro making precise sword strikes and having solid positioning.

[gentle aspen]

there’s no limit to the glaze

[limpid summit]

Silksong Hornet doesn’t jump this high or dash with such direction. We should use her animation to say she is in fact less acrobatic and dynamic than in HK.

[foggy stratus]

He does seem to swing his nail like a fucking club.

[marble oasis]

You don’t want to play this game with gadget lmao

[limpid summit]

So she loses to PV who can overwhelm her with AoE attacks

Thanks gadget

[limpid summit]

Oh I Gad (get) all day

[marble oasis]

But Fayforn is very fast and can freeze her opponents

[limpid summit]

This is true

Mister Mushroom acknowledges her power

Stand proud Fayforn

Joker do you think Sharpe will be a well written antagonist

[gentle aspen]

if we’re gonna do this level of hair splitting over animations then his strikes aren’t precise at all, they’re lumbering and take way too much time to come out.

If you’re gonna go with skill based on animations, by the time either Oro or Mato would’ve completed a swing, THK would have already done three. The way they wield their weapon shows that the nails they use are simply too heavy for them to manipulate with any sort of deftness

[limpid summit]

See you pretend you hate this sort of thing

But you have fun

I see you

[gentle aspen]

also I don’t think oro or mato have a parry skill like hornet or pv does

which I would assume shows the ability to properly handle attacks from enemies

[floral quiver]

They do

It's one of their second phase moves

[limpid summit]

They don’t

They block they don’t parry

[foggy stratus]

Making shit up at this point

[gentle aspen]

don’t they only do this when the other is preparing a nail art

As opposed to whenever the fuck pv feels like it

[marble oasis]

I don’t “block”, I don’t “parry”, I don’t “riposte”, I don’t “dodge”, I TAKE THE HIT and if I don’t hit back harder, I don’t WIN

[floral quiver]

Yes. One takes up a defense while the other charges their ability. If you attach the defending one they retaliate with one of their standard moves.

[floral quiver]

By that wording, neither does the Pure Vessel. It just blocks then retaliates.

[limpid summit]

You seem to be avoiding a few of my messages

[floral quiver]

Which ones?

[limpid summit]

This

[limpid summit]

This, which also applies to stuff like being trained to prime form and PV’s general placement as the final safeguard

[limpid summit]

And this, to explain PV’s poor form

[floral quiver]

"Being trained to prime form" doesnt actually mean amything.

It just means that it's the best it could be, but the best it could be doesn't require it to be the best fighter ever.

[limpid summit]

It literally does

The preservation of the entire kingdom hinges on its performance

There’s actually no greater requirement lol

[floral quiver]

No it doesn't. Like, something being trained to the best of its potential doesn't intrinsically lead to it being exceptional or the best ever at what it's trained in.

[swift needle]

I came back from dinner JUST to see this again

Why is this argument a thing vro💔

[limpid summit]

Of course not, but a Higher Being who wishes to preserve his eternal kingdom literally forever would certainly spare nothing in pursuit of training the one thing that is supposed to beat all threats

[civic elm]

Where did hornet see the delicste flower

[limpid summit]

Ze’mer probably had them

In the white palace

[swift needle]

The pure vessel IS perfect tho

[floral quiver]

And seemingly that training went to waste, at least where nails are concerned.

[swift needle]

Huh

[civic elm]

And when did she see the void before skong

[swift needle]

Kingsmoulds

And those platform thingya

[foggy stratus]

Basing its ENTIRE SKILL WITH A NAIL OFF ONE ANIMATION IS UTTERLY STUPID!

You are wrong.

[civic elm]

She says she saw the void errupts

[foggy stratus]

[civic elm]

Like in pharloom

[limpid summit]

PV’s nail windup is gameplay. It’s not meant to actually denote relative strength when we’re already told it was trained to prime form for an ultimate purpose so it must be the strongest around

Arguing against this is pointless really

[swift needle]

Prolly near the lighthouse

[civic elm]

What lighthouse

[swift needle]

The big one in the basin

[civic elm]

She neveer enter the void

The abyss

[swift needle]

Wha

[civic elm]

So that dosnt explain

[wheat locust]

whats the topic?
Hornet and the Void or?

[civic elm]

There is the lighthouse in the abyss

[swift needle]

She does

[civic elm]

No

[swift needle]

When we get the kings brand

[civic elm]

She stays on the door

She stays on the door

[light verge]

it’s important not to take gameplay too seriously when it comes to lore, obvious ones like the shade and cocoon being physical in game. Obviously neither exist in the actual world like that. It’s just gameplay

[swift needle]

She could've explored

[civic elm]

She didnt

[limpid summit]

So TRUE shal

[wheat locust]

That doesn't mean she can't see it, She doesn't have tunnel vision 😭
She can look down and see a bright light

[civic elm]

How can you see in a place so dark as the void

I mwan abyss

[wheat locust]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1345286242698264652/1353406099943981157/cot.gif

[swift needle]

[civic elm]

Oh ok

[wheat locust]

Ragebait?

[civic elm]

But still my point stands

[wheat locust]

Just because the Void is there does not mean "Too dark can't see anything"

She literally fucking sees in the Abyss in Silksong

[cedar topaz]

Is the main Lace melody in the Lost Lace theme at all?, because I just can't hear it at all

[eternal gazelle]

is is, in the second half that starts at phase 3

it's in a different time signature and the arrangement is very different so it's hard to clock if you're not looking for it

[floral quiver]

So I should ignore visuals and just assume that the Pure Vessel fight was actually a skillful showing of expert swordplay that I didn't get to partake in, then?

[limpid summit]

Like genuinely yeah