sk-lore

[kindred ingot]

That don't have a society

And the Weavers (who won)?

[sick tinsel]

he tried to settle there, not fight

[dire lynx]

in front of a still unbound white lady

[kindred ingot]

Those are just the Weavers. The things that Hallownest was protecting itself against were actual beasts like the Dirt Carver (is that it's name? I forgor)

[silver prawn]

Exactly
He could have gone into a war but all we have is Deepnest rejecting his trams system and killing one warrior that ventured there on his own accord

[kindred ingot]

Okay, yeah, and Hornet is just one person (who struggled against a bunch of politicians from Pharloom)

[dire lynx]

mantises and mosskin were on fairly good terms with hallownest, and seeing what the citadel is they would certainly see it in their best interests to destroy the citadel

[silver prawn]

Bro said struggled 🥀

[sick tinsel]

and its not worth it, im not gonna fight some creatures that could manipulate other bugs just for a wastelands full of beasts

[kindred ingot]

Well, in any case, when compared to the Citadel, they're basically meaningless
Like, a bunch of bushes and tribal warriors versus an army that rivals the Coral Gorge

[silver prawn]

The Mantises are good fighters tho?

What you on?

[dire lynx]

took a full chamber to take her down and all that was left were some envoys, also the only reason they were able to beat her was a surprise rune cage

[kindred ingot]

And Pharloom has guns

[dire lynx]

they dont

[silver prawn]

Pharloom is more divided than Hallownest is

[kindred ingot]

I'm considering just the Citadel

[silver prawn]

Then Hallownest clears

[dire lynx]

hallownest stops

[kindred ingot]

And also just the Kingdom of Hallownest, not everything in the first game

[silver prawn]

Still clears

We gonna forget the Pale King like that 🥀

The Great Knights

[kindred ingot]

Did Hallownest even have an army?

[dire lynx]

the sentries

[sick tinsel]

tbh just send the pure vessel and wait

[kindred ingot]

What's that?

[dire lynx]

and all the hired knights

[kindred ingot]

Those are 5 people

[sick tinsel]

hallownest solos

[silver prawn]

It had scholars that were pretty adept at wielding soul

[kindred ingot]

"Yeah, I have this army of these 5 dudes with swords"

[kindred ingot]

The scholars from Soul Sanctum don't fight wars

[silver prawn]

Calling Hegemol just a dude with a sword is insane

[kindred ingot]

They're scholars

Hallownest doesn't have anything a dead fetus with Void can't no-hit

[sick tinsel]

one could fight the void, one is a literal source of life, one is built like a tank and the other fought until her last breath (and one loves poop)

hegemol alone can beat the choir army dude

[dire lynx]

most powerful being in the verse btw

[silver prawn]

Great Sentrys and most of the regular Citadel bugs are cooked

[kindred ingot]

Oh yeah those things
You think those things have a chance against the immortal army of Silk-filled warriors of Pharloom?

[silver prawn]

We talk about prime

PRIME

[kindred ingot]

Choir Clapper no diffs

[kindred ingot]

Yeah me too

[silver prawn]

You don't 😭

[sick tinsel]

nah

[silver prawn]

The moment you said silk filled warriors you moved to a different era

[kindred ingot]

Hallownest isn't known for its great army that killed kingdoms

[sick tinsel]

the only scenario pharlooùm could win in is if we included weavers

[dire lynx]

also add sly and the three nailmasters

[kindred ingot]

The Citadel used Silk to enhance their soldiers way before the Haunting

[silver prawn]

Getting slimed by paint is funny 😭

[kindred ingot]

4 people

Against an army

[silver prawn]

Masters of nail arts

[kindred ingot]

The best swordsman against an army

[sick tinsel]

sly is by far the strongest mortal bug in both games

[fading shard]

Pharloom or more accurately the citadel in this case: The citadel never had to worry about facing other nations and had their "infantry" be focused on subjugating and oppressing their own people, with the example sashimi gave being a fight Khann and gms had not the citadel (as stated in needolin dialogue) the worst the citadel faced was the stillkin being upset over the pollution of their territory, and even then they posed no threat to them.

Their main lines of defence were the "choir" who were even higher elites of the citadels caste. Alongside them they had the Four choruses and the sentinels, impressive machines for oppressing and "kidnapping" bugs to serve the citadel but when faced when any skillful bug they fall with some difficulty as shown with the fourth chorus and the seamstress.

Hallownest on the other hand was said by Ogrim to have had several glories and battles in it's time of existence, Having the great five greats who from we've been seen are among the top 10 strongest mortal bugs we know of, their capabilities are outstanding with Dryaa being showcased to have taken down canonically dozens of infection boosted mantises to such a degree that they were forced to retreat before falling to her wounds, Ze'mer was a legendary warrior that came from the lands serene the home of the first light, Isma was apparently had some connection with the acid we see in hallownest, and has shown tremendous plant magic capabilities by her grove alone. Not to mention oh mighty Hegemol, a legend in hallownest and seemingly the strongest of the five great knights, so legendary that he was entrusted a key to the city capital and was given his own dedicated statue, with the only reason for his fall being him getting caught off guard whilst "asleep"

But now that's not even close to the end of hallownests protectors there were also the great nail masters, incredibly skilled warriors that could be compared to the sentinels (goddamn it I reached the word limit)

[dire lynx]

four more highly skilled and powerful warriors to add to the pile of other super powerful warriors we already listed

[fading shard]

You guys take a moment to read this

[silver prawn]

I will, rn

[fading shard]

because I'm not done yet

[kindred ingot]

Okay, like, a dozen people versus an army

[sick tinsel]

in short, hallownest had quality pharloom had quantity

[silver prawn]

Ogrim himself could stand his ground in his prime

[fading shard]

actually no

as I haven't even gottent o mention the pale court

or the sentries

let alone the Pale kings personal experiments

I have a lot more to mention

[silver prawn]

Kingsmolds 🙏

[fading shard]

so give me a moment

[fading shard]

Give me a moment ;-;

[silver prawn]

Alr

[sick tinsel]

i mean the pure vessel alone is way stronger than every single creature on pharloom

[kindred ingot]

Reminder that the Citadel army is canonically forbidden from dying, and that they used vast amounts of Silk to keep that from happening, which means each and every bug of Pharloom is extremely resistant to everything

[silver prawn]

If the PK would march against GMS and end her reign, those bugs would be useless

[kindred ingot]

Personal experiments don't fight armies

[silver prawn]

[kindred ingot]

Wdym

[silver prawn]

Bro really thinks the Citadel can fight a WYRM THAT IS ALSO A PALE BEING ALONGSIDE HIS ALREADY GREAT KINGDOM

[kindred ingot]

"Yeah the army is useless in a war"

[silver prawn]

Hornet was enough to end them all bruh

What you on?

[fading shard]

let me finish about the infantry before tackling the pale king

PLEASE

[kindred ingot]

Pale King is just some shiny dude

[fading shard]

okay fine I'm going to copy pasta the pale kings stuff

I have a whole google doc

[silver prawn]

This dude is ragebaiting

He's gotta be

[sick tinsel]

no thats not the case thier souls was turned into lumaflies that got put into robots

[fading shard]

The pale king is a pale wyrm seemingly the only one of his kind given all powerful beings noting his pale nature as a wyrm. His power is so magnitude and grand that even after his death his presence is enough as beacon for someone like the godseeker and others to find Hallownest, he has a lot of mind related abilities such as foresight the capability of seeing into the future (to what extent is unknown), world sense a ability seen to be used by few, it allows one to sense the world around them and the worlds state and what's happening, alongside feeling those around him (so far that it would span around hallownest), and lastly with his mind related powers, the capability of expanding the minds of bugs that do not hold human level intelligience, with the cost that the affect only lasts if one is within his sphere of influence otherwise that precious gift is lost.

He also has soul capabilities, the most impressive ones we've seen in fact, being the one training the Pure vessel he too is capable of teleportation, his own soul varation of rune rage, soul daggers, soul magic spikes. IN fact he is so grand with soul that he can generate his own and has a near infinite amount to the point that his mimicry design of soul totems of that of the ancient civilization are filled by him with so much soul that they are nearly infinite, showcasing how much soul and power he has.

He also has light capabilities, some so grand that they are compared to the everbloom by one of the npcs, and so powerful that the moths turned their backs on the radiance for preferring his light, which is apparently magnitude in power, his light is also multiple times mentioned by other npcs and just how powerful it is, seemingly being capable of thwarting and resisting void (given his lights simillar power to the everbloom) .

Seals, he has the capability of creating various seals, both ones to chains and dreams, having the power to make some of the strongest seals seen that few can breach

[kindred ingot]

I just don't see why the fact Pale King is a wyrm (which were never stated to be physically strong) completely nullifies the giant army of silk-filled warriors of the Citadel

[fading shard]

one of his seal related showcases is with the chains, capable of containing the hollow knight, and only being able to be broken by an outsider intruding into the black egg, another is how he put a protective seal on a kingsmould mind from allowing anybody to enter with dream related powers, to the point you would need a fully in power dream nail ( a powerful artifact) to breach it, and lastly he has one in the dream realm where he sealed a METAPHYSICAL MEMORY, in the dream realm, casting a powerful seal and magic on it

He did something no other creature was capable of outputting regarding the dream realm, with his dream realm power only being comparable to the radiance, as he was capable of physically moving his entire palace and servants into the dream realm, not only that he created his own SUBSPACE in the dream realm as the dream realm is more like a massive sea or galaxy, with different zones (that being shown by different essence, pink being the normal dream essence, yellow for the radiance, green for unn, and pale WHITE, for the pale king), and he was capable of creating an entire subspace and a gigantic one at that in the dream realm owned and perfectly created by himself, that would house a physical form of himself and his palace, he even was capable of combining his seal and dream abilities together to seal a MEMORY in the dream realm, something nowhere else shown

[sick tinsel]

your comparing dying ants to a hypernova dude

[kindred ingot]

? Yeah that also happened but they ALSO put silk in the regular bugs

Who were still alive

To keep them alive

[fading shard]

okay for real last thing regarding the pale king, he is the only being shown in the entire hollow knight universe capable of creating void life, and that's no joke, as the ancient civilization lore is pointed out the void during their time had no lord, no power, no creator to worship only the substance itself, and the void tendrals that we see in silksong and hollow knight are stated to be only void taken shape of thrashing tendrals, no mind or will powering it, but the void just taking shape, even sula wasn't capable of creating void life, instead sula was capable of reanimating corpses of dead pilgrims with void. The pale king is the ONLY shown capable of creating void life, and making ones loyal to him too, as the wingsmoulds and kingsmoulds (while some defected) that still exist are to this day loyal to him and only think of protecting the palace and the king, he's also responcible for the shade lord being a thing so yeah. That's everything about him

[dire lynx]

you keep acting like its only one thing we are bringing up, its all this stuff in conjunction

[fading shard]

.........He was

[sick tinsel]

they would turn into mindless husks that attack randomly

look at the whiteward

[fading shard]

It's stated his corpse spread so much aura of power

that people could track down hallownest

purely by sensing his pure strength

with his AFTER GLOW

[kindred ingot]

Those are the ones that went wrong

[dire lynx]

to keep them alive preventing natural causes mate, not death by injury

[sick tinsel]

no thats all of them

[kindred ingot]

Grand Reed
Choir Clapper

[sick tinsel]

what would happen when you put molten lava in a glass jar

it would shatter

[dire lynx]

what of them?

[sick tinsel]

you dont expect to put soul infested silk into normal bugs

[fading shard]

Yk how insane it is when team cherry does the dragon ball power scaling

[sick tinsel]

and nothing will happen

[kindred ingot]

Do you really think the Whiteward bugs are the only ones with silk?

[fading shard]

of saying that the pale king radiates power

Yk how bad that is

it's even stated that it hurt to look at him

IT HURTS TO LOOK AT HIM

[silver prawn]

ALL of the bugs that got silk in their bodies and succumbed to the Haunting ended up mad

[sick tinsel]

bugs uses silk for weapons not inject them inside thierselves

[fading shard]

because of how much power he has

[fading shard]

literally

that's actual dialogue

[dire lynx]

@sick tinsel @fading shard please stop and let sashimi reply

[kindred ingot]

That's literally what happened tho
Grand Reeds were enhanced with Silk, the Conductors used Silk to stay alive

[sick tinsel]

okay

[fading shard]

"he was a glorious bug to behold, bright and radiant in visage, so much so it hurt to look at him."

"How bright it must have been to mortal bug stood before it."

"Even long departed, We feel the afterglow of the God-power that sat this throne... It lays heavy upon this kingdom.
That lingering power alone was beacon enough to draw Us to Hallownest"

[dire lynx]

a) grand reed are not silk enhanced

b) the conductors use of silk (like every other instance in whiteward) was used to extend natural life, not resurrect the dead

[fading shard]

"What a curious specimen. Hah! Though even its pure aura is no match for the light of our dear King."

[terse warren]

"You have been mod pinged.

I am not a bot. I am a Volunteer HKmain mini-Moderator. I do not have mod powers but my reports are taken seriously and those who get on my bad side tend to get banned in under 24 hours."

Ahhh

[fading shard]

dialogue about the everbloom and pale king

[silver prawn]

Lmfao 😭🙏

[sick tinsel]

and the conductors used it in small amounts, not huge

[dire lynx]

how constructive

[terse warren]

You don't even know the copypasta

Are you even a real hkmain user

[dire lynx]

no

[terse warren]

Lowkey ban worthy

[dire lynx]

i havent participated in the community outside of this channel and a bite of maskbearer

[marble oasis]

Is this joker

[terse warren]

No

[silver prawn]

The verdict overall is that, with all of the evidence we have gathered, Hallownest CLEARS Pharloom in the prime war

[fading shard]

let me mention the sentries

[kindred ingot]

One second I have something to say

[silver prawn]

...

[fading shard]

Now hallownests military, unlike the choir, you can find the sentries everywhere in hallownest territory, if that's ancient basin, resting grounds, some parts of fungal wastes, etc while to us they might not seem that impressive but in the hunter journal entries their skill is pointed to be rather impressive the regular sentry is rather nimble with fast and well skilled strikes, the heavy sentry has powerful blows and even in their infected state they are still capable of retaining some of their skills as a loyal sentry of hallownest, and the great sentries are stated to be a genuine threat even to rather skilled bugs, and they have been shown to have FAR bigger numbers then what we've been shown with the choir

[fading shard]

And unlike the choir the sentries were part of various conflicts in hallownests history, and they are well trained and skilled in their ways as said by the hunter's journal entries

(seriously instead of giving us some lore the hunter journal entries for them is just talking about their skills and how not get beaten up by them)

[sick tinsel]

he said they are a threat but not that he got beat up by them

they are still strong compared to choir bugs tho

[fading shard]

I worded it wrong

[sick tinsel]

choir bugs dosent seem to be as trained as city guards

[fading shard]

the hunters journal entries actually give the player tips and advice as to how to deal with them

[silver prawn]

"An extremely rare thing, a bug of Hallownest that actually poses a threat. Watch them carefully, as they can lash out quickly with devastating strikes." - Hunter's Journal note

[fading shard]

the other journal entries for the sentries also mention their skills

[silver prawn]

"Animated remains of a Great Sentry, the most elite of the city's guards. Wields a greatnail and shell. Its powerful attacks cause heavy damage." - first note of Great Sentries

[silver prawn]

Wait

[fading shard]

"Surprisingly quick-witted for a corpse. It will try to catch you if you leap over it and can chase you if you flee. Enjoyable to hunt, but beware them in packs."

Animated remains of a large Hallownest Sentry. One of few in Hallownest strong enough to wield a greatnail.

More skilled at combat than most bugs of Hallownest, they are nimble but lightly armoured. Keep the pressure on them.

[silver prawn]

"More skilled at combat than most bugs of Hallownest, they are nimble but lightly armoured." Regular Sentry

[fading shard]

This devious foe will often keep its distance and try to pick you off with its thrown weapons. When it charges at you, leap up and strike it down.

[sick tinsel]

actually they have better armour than choir army

[silver prawn]

Compare this to Citadel bugs

[fading shard]

I do wanna point out that the reason this is said is because he includes the regular folk of hallownest

[kindred ingot]

First of all, we're talking about a WAR. Not a fight, a war. Which means the Army of the Kingdom of Hallownest is fighting the Army of the Citadel of Pharloom. Bugs like the Nailmasters, the Pure Vessel, the Soul Twisters, the Vaultkeepers, and the Weavers most probably wouldn't be included, as they most probably didn't fight in wars. It's a fight between armies, not just "who has the strongest bugs"
Hallownest's army was mainly composed of Sentries, which are strong, but they're limited by the fact that they're mortal bugs which no enhancements. One could argue the Kingsmoulds were also soldiers, which would mean Hallownest also has the power of the Void constructs, which does affect the result. Their main soldiers were the Five Great Knights, which were strong and have some grand feats.
The Citadel, however, has a very specific power: Silk. They used Silk on everything: their weapons, their Cogwork mechanisms, their medicine, and mostly their people. They injected Silk into bugs to make them stronger, more resistant, and practically immortal, creating an army of enhanced warriors with magical weapons. Those soldiers were also probably very well-trained and ordered, as they were indoctrinated to obey and serve since birth.
That said, Citadel sweeps.

[sick tinsel]

the only way pharloom could win is when we dont include pure vessel and other skilled fighter in hallownest side

or if pharloom includes weavers

in short

[kindred ingot]

Which is a valid exclusion, since it's a war, not a competition of which has the strongest bugs

[silver prawn]

In a war, everyone is deployed

[sick tinsel]

if ur just talking about choir bugs they are NOT winning

[silver prawn]

Safe for the women and children

[sick tinsel]

sly alone can be compared to skarrsinger karmelita

[silver prawn]

Everyone else is included

[fading shard]

no he can't

[silver prawn]

Your assumption has no logical sense in a real war

[fading shard]

that'd more so be hegemol

[kindred ingot]

Neither of them would fight in a war between Citadel and Hallownest

[fading shard]

karmelita is a old heart

[sick tinsel]

he can

sly is by far the strongest mortal bug ingame we know of

but hes retired

[kindred ingot]

Even civilians? Even people who are not even part of the kingdom?

[fading shard]

yes he would

he's not even a civillian

he only recently became a merchant

[silver prawn]

It's like irl

[fading shard]

anyway I will gone for a few hours

[kindred ingot]

He's just some guy who's very good at using a nail

[fading shard]

??

[silver prawn]

That's an understatement

[sick tinsel]

and hes the great nailsage for a reason

[kindred ingot]

I mean, he's not a soldier

He's not royalty

He's just some dude

[fading shard]

is it okay with y'all if I engage in this topic later

[silver prawn]

He is THE very good guy at using a nail

[fading shard]

he's the great nail sage?

he had great status before hallownests decline

[silver prawn]

Pharloom would have the pinstresses maximum as an equivalent

[fading shard]

the pinstresses got betrayed remember

[kindred ingot]

What I mean is: he's not royalty, or a soldier, or anyone who would be part of an army

[silver prawn]

Yes

Which means they wouldn't fight

So the Citadel lost

[kindred ingot]

The Pinstresses are NOT part of the Citadel anymore

[sick tinsel]

they never was they just made a deal with them ?

[silver prawn]

A shame then because they wouldn't hold their ground against Hallownest

The Citadel would lose

[sick tinsel]

even if pintresses were in they wouldent win

if the choir bugs was able to murder most of them why hallownest wouldent

[unique tangle]

If Hornet by herself can take down like 30 guys alone in some fuckass gauntlet then I’d say the citadel couldn’t have been that tough…

[sick tinsel]

depends if shakra help/garmond is canon or no

but hornet could take a literal god so it dosent matter

[unique tangle]

Doesn’t change the fact that she can

Also like only one side has a higher being here…

[silver prawn]

Yeah but Hornet is very skilled

Even if she wasn't the main character in her own game

She still remains a threat

[unique tangle]

You have god and his demigod children and his army

Vs a bunch of bugs

[silver prawn]

I'm imagining it as a coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb scenario

[unique tangle]

I think it’s no contest here

[silver prawn]

Even if we were to include ALL of Pharloom to make it fair

Pharloom before the Citadel had multiple independent factions that were destroyed

So why would they all side with the Citadel and not help Hallownest instead?

Given that the Pale King would find a compromise

[sick tinsel]

if we include all of pharloom then we have to include all of hallownest

[dire lynx]

silk does not make people stronger, or grant physical immortality.
it extends natural lifespan

[sick tinsel]

so we make it easier for hallownest

actually radiance alone is stronger than all of pharloom

including GMS

[silver prawn]

I'll say that even if Pharloom would have Khann or Karmelita, they wouldn't fight for the Citadel

The talk is all about Prime

But I cannot pinpoint Pharloom's prime that well

[sick tinsel]

karmelita could since she didnt have reasons to hate the citadel before the haunting

but i dont think so

low chance

[silver prawn]

Let's say she joins in

Then what?

Ah, she is gonna fight the Mantis Lords?

Could we include all 4 of them?

[sick tinsel]

sisters of battle alone seems to cmpete with karmelita ngl

[dire lynx]

yeah, id say they are on par

with traitor lord, leaning solidly in their favour

[silver prawn]

With Karmelita sorted out, I feel like adding Khann, the Green Dancers and Nyleth would be out of place

[sick tinsel]

i feel like the traitor lord wouldve been stronger if he wasent infected since when infected hes fighting on pure instinct

[austere crest]

yes hallownest is stronger

the haunting is gms's silk infection
void can also infect in a different way
look at :
lost lace
lost garmond😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

[austere crest]

traitor would be as strong as the other patheticly weak 3 mantis lords without the infection

[foggy stratus]

The Traitor Mantises allowed the infection into them specifically to become stronger. Its also what the colo bugs did.

[foggy stratus]

What do you mean you 'lost Garmond'? Go find him.

[austere crest]

are we deadass

[foggy stratus]

[austere crest]

i have never seen this emoji

[foggy stratus]

[austere crest]

[austere crest]

i did find him. lost

[sick tinsel]

would that strength matter if your running just on instinct with no strategy in battle ?

[foggy stratus]

Yeah. Also the Fools aren't just going off instinct. The Mantises might also not be going off instinct.

[sick tinsel]

mantises arent infected and the fools are fighting for the sake of fighting

[foggy stratus]

Traitor Mantises are infected. Also the Fools are infact infected.

[solar gale]

Traitor mantises embraced the infection rather than having it take over them

So they still retain their autonomy (for a bit)

[sick tinsel]

yea but traitor mantises are still going on pure instinct

[solar gale]

no

[foggy stratus]

Instinct that drove them to the Queen's Gardens to find and kill WL while also taking the area over for themselves.

[sick tinsel]

the radiance infection in hunter journal is said to return bugs to thier primal instincts

[foggy stratus]

Clearly its not a universal thing given that the Fools aren't reverted to their basic instincts.

[sick tinsel]

hmm

[sick tinsel]

mantises in the game seem to be highly social creatures

this can be rooted in thier own nature

[solar gale]

Mantises are intelligent creatures

They can resist the radiance but they can also let the infection in to strengthen themselves

[sick tinsel]

this isnt always the case tho

i dont think they ever wanted to try and kill the white lady

the radiance is clearly controlling them

[solar gale]

Traitor lord did that, so it's safe to assume mantises did too

[sick tinsel]

how do we know

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Traitor Lord

Description:
Deposed Lord of the Mantis tribe. Embraced the infection and turned against his sisters.

Hunter's notes:
I have felt that desire. The desire to take the infection into myself. To become stronger, more powerful... these thoughts haunt my dreams during the darkest times. A false hope, but it can burn so brilliantly in one's mind.

Dream Nail:
...Outcast...Survive...Kill...
...Intruder...Destroy...
Our lands now...

@mebaconcraft used /journal name: Traitor Lord text: Full Text

[sick tinsel]

oh

i thought ur talking about him trying to kill WL

[solar gale]

Okay nevermind mantis traitors are not intelligent

They are reduced to instinct

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Mantis Traitor

Description:
Once a member of the Mantis tribe, now cast out and driven mad by infection.

Hunter's notes:
Belonging to a tribe, or not belonging. I don't really understand what the difference is, or how it works. I have no tribe of my own.

Dream Nail:
...Outcast...Survive...Kill...
...Intruder...Destroy...
Our lands now...

@mebaconcraft used /journal name: Mantis Traitor text: Full Text

[sick tinsel]

thier dream nail dialogue says everything

they are clearly on instinct

surely thier physical strength is more but they seem to be alot dumber

[frank dove]

Oh cutscenes

Forgot about cutscenes

And circular parts of signs spin/fall over when you hit them right?

Yes I come back a day later and realize the game is 3d

However I think their earth is flat

[fading shard]

btw I do wanna give context that the journal in holow knight and silksong are quite different

The hunter states such bold statements because of the easy life the regular citizens of hallownest possess, as shown with maggots, various husks, the rich caste

He deemed their easy going lives as a sign of weakness

"These "civilised" bugs of Hallownest were weak in life and now they are equally weak in death."

"he bugs of old Hallownest did not hunt their own food, they had it brought to them. That's why they were so weak. That's why their kingdom crumbled into dust and faded away!"

"Softened by generations of luxury, these bugs lack claws or armour or venom."

"The bugs of Hallownest are so pathetic that being infected by poisonous fungi actually increases their chances of survival!"

This is all dialogue on the REGULAR bugs of hallownest

that''s why the hunter deems the great sentries as a "rare thing" of a threat

same goes for the other sentries

Hornet on the other hand doesn't have dialogue talking about ones weakness

she shows signs of respect to those with great strength but she doesn't disrespect those such as the pilgrims with such harsh wording as the hunter does

So while yes that dialogue intitially be interpreted as a statement on hallownests strength, when you actually think about it a little bit longer to realize that the hunter was referring to the regular citizens of hallownest, not the sentries and guards

in fact as shown he doesn't actually degrade them in any shape or form and with some even show some signs of respect

to their mindless corpses mind you!!

[foggy stratus]

He's a hunter, he respects strength.

[fading shard]

So just these statements by the hunter should be taken as a sign of the sentries competance and well trained skill

[fading shard]

if HE of all people actually shows some signs of respect towards them

when he normally degrades hallownests citizens

it should showcase that the sentries at the very least are well trained and strong soldiers of Hallownest

[foggy stratus]

What are we talking about rn?

[fading shard]

uh the strength of the sentries

and them being a competent and well put together army

[foggy stratus]

Compared to The Citadel's?

[fading shard]

just in general

[fading shard]

but yes that too

[fading shard]

I've read every single hunter's journal statement on the choir bugs

and based on what's said and shown

they seem to have a similar level of skill

both sides being compared to be far stronger then normal bug

both having their strength be talked about, etc

"Their use of a pin shows hard training. Their use of Silk, unfurled from a spool held close, shows skill far beyond standard bugs."

"More skilled at combat than most bugs of Hallownest, they are nimble but lightly armoured."

"A form well suited for combat, lithe and fast. No surprise it seems to rank so high amongst its cult."

"Animated remains of a large Hallownest Sentry. One of few in Hallownest strong enough to wield a greatnail."

"Surprisingly quick-witted for a corpse. It will try to catch you if you leap over it and can chase you if you flee. Enjoyable to hunt, but beware them in packs."

you get my point

both sides get similar journal entries

[fading shard]

do you perchance disagree

or have any quarrels to my statement if so do share :>

[graceful grail]

Who do we think was made first, Eva or Phantom??

I Eva was made before GMS was put to speep. We know this because she was made in weavenest Alta far enough down to escape GMS sight.

But would GMS had made phantom before eva and thats what made the weavers try to make a silk being like gms but from their own silk??

Please discuss if you have any insight.

[maiden meteor]

tbh I think that Weavers got idea of silk life from GMS

so it's probably Phantom first

[graceful grail]

That’s what I was thinking. But then I thought WHY would GMS try and make more children unless she had children who betrayed her.

That’s what I thought was the purpose between phantom and lace. GMS trying to make children that would be dependent on her, never betray her.

[maiden meteor]

Maybe weavers even subdued Phantom and forced them into servitude and as research subject?

their vat in Organ seems to be a bit too advanced tech for GMS to build using zombies

[maiden meteor]

Lace was clearly design with intent of being forever-child

basically a glorified plaything for GMS to stroke her ego

Phantom was likely more "normal" person

But also now that I think about it, there's a slight chance Phantom was also weaver project???

I mean she has personal life support vat and is also working for Citadel (which COULD have happened after GMS got into power but also could happen before that)

Maybe they were a proof-of-concept for silk life

[sick tinsel]

phantom was a prototype of lace

basically

[maiden meteor]

but when they tried to make it divine Eva happened

[sick tinsel]

if phantom wasent fragile GMS wouldve never discarded her

[maiden meteor]

im honestly being a bit of crackhead theorist rn but like

only evidence we have of Phantom being created by GMS is one referring to other as "sister" WHICH could also allude to simply them having similar nature

[lyric widget]

the full needolin dialogue in that scene confirms they're both spun by GMS:
"She spun us to fade...
She spun us to break...
Why us, sister?
Why us?"

[maiden meteor]

ohhhh

I forgot that

yeah makes sense then

[limpid summit]

I think you’re right about Eva

Imo Phantom was created after, in GMS’s sleep during the Weaver era before she stirred

This explains not only why she was discarded but straight up not mentioned

GMS didn’t even know she existed

[graceful grail]

I’m pretty sure Phantom mentions that GMS made both them and lace to eventually fade

[near jasper]

Or lace depending on how you interpret that memory

[limpid summit]

That’s not her talking about a deliberate reason for creating them though

It’s like a lament

“What’s the point of us living if we fade and die”

Would be the same thing as saying we were spun to break

[near jasper]

Phantom doesnt actually exist hornet is just high from the silk gumes

[fading shard]

isn't that lace speaing

sounds like lace

given the scene

[near jasper]

Idk man probably maybe

[limpid summit]

Likely lace

[floral quiver]

I'm almost certain that if Lace and Phantom were created during the time the Weavers were still active in Pharloom and the Weavers knew about it, they wouldn't be enslaved or anything. They'd be killed.

True Spawn of their hated, lying "Mother"? To let them live would be an insult to the whole point of the rebellion (fron the perspective of the cunning, vicious spiderfolk)

[floral quiver]

Better a child spun mad... than none...
...Better a child spun frail... than none...
...Better a child spun pure... than them...
...One to wish our waking...

...From our Silk... A child born loyal...

[limpid summit]

Yeah but I think throwing her into the landfill of the citadel made to perpetuate the song that traps their mother also seems like a Weaver punishment

Exhaust organ is stone citadel era

[fading shard]

btw man happy april fools day

[limpid summit]

You too abhiker

[floral quiver]

Not from the Stone era, built over a Stone era part of the Citadel I think.

One of the neat artistic things about the Citadel is that many rooms in different parts of the building, both old and modern, were visibly being gutted in order to expand the Clockwork Core and its support infrastructure.

[drowsy marsh]

slavery

[floral quiver]

?

What does the Exhaust Organ potentially being from the Industrialization era of the Citadel have to do with slavery?

[sick tinsel]

this contradicts the fact that phantom was put in charge of exhaust organ by the citadel

[floral quiver]

Not a fact. There is nothing that says that.

And of course it contradicts it. It assumes that the Weavers would kill them

It doesnt take game era Phantom into consideration because it assumes they'd be long dead by then.

[sick tinsel]

exhaust organ was built to direct toxic gases from the citadel to bilewater, which indicates it was built by the time the citadel was at its peak in, not early on

[floral quiver]

Yes?

That's what I believe.

I just don't believe that Phantom was there from the beginning.

[sick tinsel]

which means that phantom existed with the weavers and they know about it

[floral quiver]

No?

That doesnt follow

[plain ruin]

There’s no way that Phantom and Lace existed while the Weavers were still in Pharloom

[floral quiver]

I think that Phantom and Lace are relatively recent creations in the long, long history of Pharloom

Like, pretty deep into the Conductor's rule.

[plain ruin]

Probably created some time around the beginning of the Haunting, yeah

[floral quiver]

Basically, a lot of the Citadel related NPCs and known events were pretty bunched up in the last waning days of the Citadel, as the Haunting was either about to start, or slowly gaining ground.

It's just that even those last days were extremely long by the reckoning of most bugs.

Like, the Haunting was a fast process when compared to the sheer age of the Citadel, but the Citadel is almost old beyond reckoning, such that a blip in its history is still centuries of time.

[sick tinsel]

then how the GMS was able to create them in the first place

[sick tinsel]

GMS was unable to do anything because she was trapped

[plain ruin]

She’s been trapped in that slumber ever since the Weavers betrayed her, and she created Phantom and Lace because the Weavers betrayed her

Also she’s able to haunt bugs and communicate with Hornet despite being trapped

[sick tinsel]

she clearly wasent able to do anything while in the cocoon

[sick tinsel]

thats because the choir song stopped ?

[plain ruin]

So she’s clearly capable of doing some things, mainly things involving silk and stringing it

[plain ruin]

If that’s the case, they must have existed after the Weavers left

Because the song didn’t stop until long after they all left

So that further proves that they didn’t coexist with the Weavers

[floral quiver]

Silk being able to do things despite being asleep is an important part of the game's story

[sick tinsel]

it shoul be the case, the quest for the citadel is called "seek the silent halls"

the song clearly stopped from playing

and GMS abused that so she haunt bugs

[plain ruin]

How does any of that indicate that Phantom and Lace were created while the Weavers were still in Pharloom

[floral quiver]

Yes. But that doesn't imply what you seem to think it does

[sick tinsel]

idk how this shifted

but i belive GMS wasent able to do that

while shes in a cocoon

[floral quiver]

Why?

Why do you think this?

[plain ruin]

Ok, so she created Phantom and Lace before entering the cocoon then?

[sick tinsel]

so weavers was still there

why the weavers would kill phantom and lace anyways ?

[plain ruin]

But they were created because of the Weavers betraying her. She tells us that Lace was created for this specific reason. It stands to reason that she created Phantom for the same reason.

[floral quiver]

Because they are children actually born directly of Silk.

They are what Silk claimed the Weavers were. Divine children.

To let them live would spit in the eye of the rebellion.

[sick tinsel]

why would the weavers still want them tho

[floral quiver]

They wouldnt

[sick tinsel]

the weavers rejected the fact they arent divine

[floral quiver]

They would kill them

[sick tinsel]

and further more to back up my claim, phantom is a discarded child, so she couldve been spared, and lace is able to defend herself against weavers

[plain ruin]

The only Weaver who realistically could have known about Lace and Phantom is Widow, and there’s no way in hell she would kill them

[floral quiver]

That's not backing up your claim because just because she could doesnt mean she ever had to.

[sick tinsel]

maybe

but lace seems to have survived alot

[floral quiver]

Phantom being a discarded child says nothing about when they were discarded

Only that they were

[sick tinsel]

she hates GMS and possibly share same interests with the weavers

[floral quiver]

So?

[sick tinsel]

they dont have a reason to kill her

[floral quiver]

They would have. She is what Silk said they were.

She is a slap in the face. An insult

She is an obvious replacement

[sick tinsel]

an insult that hates its own creator ?

[plain ruin]

Phantom wants to die in a decisive battle. They would probably just attack the Weavers on sight if they somehow interacted at any point in time

They’re not full of hate, they’re full of depression

[floral quiver]

Phantom and Lace werent born hating their mother

That was caused by her neglect

[sick tinsel]

i think she got depressed over time for being alone in the exhaust organ

[floral quiver]

Yes.

[plain ruin]

I mean sure but I imagine they were still pretty damn distraught from the beginning

[sick tinsel]

true but phantom still was discarded

[floral quiver]

Yes.

But that says nothing to imply they were pre Citadel

At all

[sick tinsel]

maybe

anyone woul feel the same if he was discarded for being something he didnt chose

[sick tinsel]

nothing is against that

[floral quiver]

But you've been trying to give arguments that back up your assertion that Lace and Phantom are pre-rebellion?

[sick tinsel]

maybe at the same time of the rebellion

i didnt say pre rebellion

i said pre citadel

the weavers CLEARLY existed by the time the citadel started

[floral quiver]

Why though? The rebellion was a secret. The silken children were created as a replacement for the Weavers, not as kin.

Better a child spun mad... than none...
...Better a child spun frail... than none...
...Better a child spun pure... than them...
...One to wish our waking...

...From our Silk... A child born loyal...

[sick tinsel]

grandmother silk probably knew about what was going behind her back

[floral quiver]

... no?

If she did and let it happen she's stupid and the Weavers lose their cunning.

[sick tinsel]

some weavers surely stayed loyal to the silk mother

[floral quiver]

Very little implies that. The Weavers sheer fear and hate of their progenitor and her lies is the cornerstone of what little we know of them and their part in the narrative.

[sick tinsel]

if widow is one example, there are surely others

[floral quiver]

If. If is carrying a lot there.

[sick tinsel]

and we know that even after that the weavers refused the fact they arent divine

[floral quiver]

I for one don't believe that Widow was loyal.

[floral quiver]

The Weavers never claim divinity in their internal lore. They just don't stop common bugs from venerating them.

[sick tinsel]

why

[floral quiver]

Hell, we dont even know when common bugs started worshipping and praying to and creating effigies of the Weavers as saintly figures.

[floral quiver]

Because the arguments I was given weren't convincing enough to change my mind.

[sick tinsel]

she couldve snitched, anyone could

[floral quiver]

And because "Rebellios daughter tortured into unconditional love and service , but driven mad by it" is more compelling in the overall narrative to me

[floral quiver]

Yes, but I dont believe she was loyal. Any possibilities that arise from her loyalty arent considered because I dont believe she was loyal

[sick tinsel]

could u elaborate i dont understand this

[floral quiver]

Widow enters the story a madwoman. Upon defeat, it is revealed that she was tortured, pins driven into her spinnerettes and her mask forcibly removed.

I believe that this being done on the sleeping orders of Silk in order to punish a wayward daughter and make her unconditionally loyal and loving as she should have been in Silk's eyes, is more compelling, and fits just as well with what little lore we have on the character than her being loyal from the start and tortured by the Weavers after the rebellion.

Because it heightens the potential fate of Hornet if captured and feeds into Silk's characterization as a capricious, uncaring mother who expects unconditional love and loyalty from her children as a law of existence she is willing to force rather than something earned through care and returned affection.

[sick tinsel]

or she was tortured by her own sisters after them winning against GMS for betrayal, and i believe she accepted the haunting after it spread, and if hornet was captured GMS wouldve probably used hornet unique nature for her own benifets, possibly absorbs her just like in "string to serve" cut ending

[floral quiver]

And I find that less compelling.

That is a boring twist.

That's the kind of generic twist I'd expect from a lesser story.

[sick tinsel]

maybe

i kinda feel like most of stuff were arguing about here is false since we dont have dlc's to confirm stuff

[edgy nebula]

hornet is the reincarnation of matpat from game theory

[floral quiver]

Well yeah. The game locks down basically nothing and even the stuff it does lock down is vague to the extreme.

There is very little objective truth in the lore of Pharloom

[sick tinsel]

true

[floral quiver]

There is an implied sequence of events, but when specific things happened is up in the air

[marsh maple]

Is the haunting more of a mind control or more of the bugs bending to grandmother Silks will?

[floral quiver]

Both.

[limpid summit]

That is literally what it says

She was tasked alone with the ordeal

Which would have been a system at the beginning of the citadel

[floral quiver]

She can puppet bugs as seen by Haunted Pilgrims, but she can also subtly influence bugs that have her Silk.

[limpid summit]

Everyone needs a trash chute

[floral quiver]

The exhaust organ is not a trash chute. It's a device to pump out toxic fumes and smog.

Toxic fumes and smog caused by industrialization

[floral quiver]

When she was tasked is a massive unknown.

[limpid summit]

The refuse is mostly silk dregs that fall onto Greymoor

Which aren’t new

And the citadel was industrialized for a while before the Conductors they just made it outwardly new and shining (Sentinels, etc)

[floral quiver]

... yes they are. The silk dregs only started to fall when the silk experiments began. Before then it was a breadbasket where food was grown

[limpid summit]

Could have been at any point but fair

[floral quiver]

No it wasn't. Being able to build individual robots doesnt require large scale industry. Being able to build a lot of robots requires large scale industry.

Note that the Weavers built their robots in secret without an industrial complex

[limpid summit]

Refuse would have still existed

[floral quiver]

So?

Burn pits exist. Landfills exist. Having refuse at all doesnt lead to the massive undertaking that is the Exhaust Organ, a thing that is the size of a sky scraper and stretches deep into Bilewater.

[limpid summit]

Weavers have built bigger

Eh anyway

[lyric rose]

They built the citadel after all

A structure so huge it can’t even fit in one zone so underworks gets to be its own area

[floral quiver]

Note that what is the original Citadel is much smaller than the modern Citadel. The "Stone era" Citadel is basically the Underworks and the room taken up by the Exhaust Engine proper (the area listed as Exhaust Engine)

[lyric rose]

Perhaps she stays in the cradle because she is, ultimately, receiving a form of worship.

She’s trapped but she’s not attempting to break out

[lyric rose]

Exhaust Organ

[floral quiver]

The Exhaust Organ isn't original Citadel make. It is a later addition that happened to be built in an older part of the Citadel.

[lyric rose]

You said exhaust engine, not organ

[floral quiver]

Oh

Apologies. 😆

[lyric rose]

Accepted

[floral quiver]

But yeah, a lot of "Citadel stuff" is much younger than the Citadel as a concept or even as a Conductor run state.

[near jasper]

Whats the topic rn

[lyric rose]

Gramma Silk

Meemaw Silky

[floral quiver]

There was a point where the Exhaust Organ and the Choral Chambers and the High Halls and the Whispering Vaults and the Memorium did not exist even though the Citadel and Conductors did.

[near jasper]

Why did they even make the exhaust organ a one person job

[floral quiver]

Because one person being able to control the removal of industrial pollutants is more efficient than needing multiple people

[lyric rose]

And why did they pick the problem child instead of somebody involved with the conductors

[near jasper]

I mean it is pretty easy to enslave silk beings

[floral quiver]

Because Phantom is being punished by their mother. Still technically in the Citadel, but as far from the Cradle as possible and entirely alone.

[floral quiver]

You give the Citadel too much control over their actions.

[near jasper]

I wish Phantom and last judge were more impactful than just "guy before the citadel and 1 lore spot"

[floral quiver]

Last Judge does their role well. At least to me.

Their narrative intent is to be a final challenge on Hornet's pilgrimage. A final duel, a show of worth in sacred combat as she earns her way past the Grand Gate.

They don't need to be more than that, and trying to make them more dilutes their narrative and thematic purpose.

[near jasper]

Phantom dying should have more impact on the game

[floral quiver]

This I agree with.

Unlike the Last Judge that has narrative and thematic weight in spades, Phantom, narratively, might as well not exist.

[near jasper]

The only personality trait we have of phantom is "suicidal"

[floral quiver]

And confused.

Like, Phantom very much has a lot of potential. The narrative just doesnt acknowledge them.

[glacial warren]

Phantom is generally very theatrical and flamboyant, posing dramatically throughout her fight and making curt taunts at Hornet as she fizzles in and out of visibility amidst the smog.

[floral quiver]

Well yeah. Phantom of The Opera expry

[glacial warren]

So on some level, we know where Lace got her sense of dramatics from.

Since she poses similarly to her sister.

[floral quiver]

Depends on who we assume is the "eldest" in their weird as heck familial dynamic.

[random aspen]

holy words

[floral quiver]

Lace could have easily been the "Elder sister"

[near jasper]

Vaultkeepers be like

[random aspen]

like every character talks like this in hk

spinderous spiderling

[glacial warren]

Phantom is the older sister. She's MUCH older and has faded grey in her disrepair, and seems to have a more matured air about her. Lace is more childish and juvenile in both mannerisms and in speech.

[edgy nebula]

would be one bad older sister since she’s a child

[near jasper]

I still have to check how they translated that to other languages

[random aspen]

phantom also just sounds older

[glacial warren]

In essence, Phantom was the 'prototype' for Lace. Discarded once the 'finished version' was made.

[edgy nebula]

calamitous criminal

[near jasper]

Why does crawfather Just make up words

[floral quiver]

Again. Who is eldest is an unknown. Phantoms time as sole operator of the Exhaust Organ could have aged her before her time, while Lace stayed pristine and "young" in Silk's "good graces".

It's probably as you say but we don't know.

[random aspen]

cus hes the father of craws

[near jasper]

"what should I put for the crawfather needolin dialogue?"
"Just make some shit up lol"

[random aspen]

court of craws shouldve been called court of murders

[floral quiver]

To sound "legally"?

[glacial warren]

We do know Phantom was made first. Again she was essentially the 'prototype' for what became Lace. Once the Grand Mother had her 'better' daughter, the aging and frail Phantom was thrown away like trash.

[floral quiver]

Yeah, reading it, it's obviously to sound smart and "judgelike"

And the words arent made up.

They're just old fashioned. Again to fit the "Judge" themeing.

[glacial warren]

The Crawfather is essentially the 'Skarrsinger' to the Craws. He's the judge and executioner portion, whereas the Court as a whole is the jury.

[floral quiver]

We don't know. There is no lore that says who was made first.

[near jasper]

Im very sure they're made up

[random aspen]

lowk lace couldve been made first

[floral quiver]

Phantom being "Grey with age" doesn't say that she's older than Lace. Her Needolin dialogue gives no words on when she was made, just that at the time of the duel she was physically wearing down, which given her current situation is just obvious

[random aspen]

lace is just a immature brat

[floral quiver]

Intentionally so even!

An eternal child, loyal forever

[random aspen]

whys phantom in this chamber thing while lace isnt, does gms need that to create fully silk creatures unless phantom is in there for some other reason

and i think because phantom is in the chamber lace is probably the one saying "she spun us to fade"

but then again the phantom in that chamber looks pretty deformed like after she was abandoned

but we dont know what she used to look like anyways

maybe she just turned gray nothing else

[floral quiver]

Gotta make your NPCs recognizable

If they used an entirely different design I guarantee someone would be postulating some kind of "Third silken child we just never see and is only mentioned in one missable part but here's all their deep lore!"

At least with the design used, it's recognizable as Phantom

[random aspen]

so when are we getting prime phantom

[near jasper]

Pantheon 2

[random aspen]

pantheon of the uhh

pantheon of the opera

[floral quiver]

Pantheon of Silk

[random aspen]

i feel like that would be p3 of p4

and we fight lace 4

if we get another lace fight in any shape or form im doing horrendous things

especially if its phantom and lace fight

[lone folio]

Only acceptable way to do it

Otherwise another lace fight will make me tear everything else on the pantheons apart limb by limb

[floral quiver]

Redesign their movesets to be complimentary to each other!

[lone folio]

Yes!

[near jasper]

Phantom fight but wraiths Spawn

[lone folio]

Oh and lost grandmother silk would be awesome

[floral quiver]

Covering each other's weaknesses

[lone folio]

Or just a stronger silk

I want a stronger gms

[near jasper]

:3

That took 30 seconds to send 😭

[lone folio]

Your internet is not doing too hot

[lone folio]

And I will only accept a lost version if she's more unique then the normal boss

Like none of those stupid basic void attacks

Unless they are used in an interesting way

Lost Lace fight did it alright

[near jasper]

My internet is 4th lace fight

[random aspen]

worst shit ever

instead of prime phantom (peak) we get lace 4 only carried by phantom

[random aspen]

this would be awesome if she uses it like conchflies and is more of a killable attack than ads

[lone folio]

Oh prime phantom fight isn't a half bad idea aswell

[random aspen]

its the best idea fym

[lone folio]

Or yk Trobbio 3 would also be nice....

[random aspen]

trobbio 3 only works if we get a grimm troupe dlc

[floral quiver]

I like Lace.

Her fighting style is fun to watch. But then I've always been a fencing dork

[lone folio]

Get out 😭

[random aspen]

yeah but we dont need 4 😭

[near jasper]

Trobbio 3 in sos

[floral quiver]

Oh no.

[random aspen]

he wears the mask, becomes bigger like brumm and does 2 masks contact damage

it makes the most sense bro

and trobbio would beg to join the troupe

[floral quiver]

I honestly think that a "pantheon" is a terrible idea.

[random aspen]

what else would trobbio even do

become blue

[lone folio]

Why?

[floral quiver]

Because I'm not a fan of boss rushes in general and I think that adding one would hurt the relatively tight narrative that already exists while trying to fit one into it.

[near jasper]

I wanna know more pharloom geography

[floral quiver]

Luckily for you Sea of Sorrow is coming!

[near jasper]

Pharloom was basically an island at one point being covered in water on both sides

[drifting whale]

after Hornet defeated his purple form he either becomes good or he becomes a Emo

[swift needle]

plasmified trobbio

he takes drugs now

[drifting whale]

plasmism is basically a drug in Hollow Knight so I'm not surprised if he would take like a big amount of that to make him a third trobio boss

[lone folio]

Do we ever get a mention of lifeblood making people happy?

If we want to consider it as a drug that Trobbio would want to use it would need to have at least one mention of bringing positive mental affects

[drifting whale]

IDK, I know from that one NPC in hollow knight who gives you one of the weakest lifeblood charms that while its illegal its still great or smh.

[random harbor]

Salubra - Goods - Lifeblood Heart

Have you ever drunk that bright blue liquid, 'lifeblood'? It's a bit of a taboo, but it makes you feel much healthier doesn't it?
This charm seeps lifeblood and will certainly improve your constitution!

@lexmolten used /npcs merchants name: Salubra category: Goods dialogue: Lifeblood Heart

[lone folio]

Yeah because I doubt trobbio would put healing juice into his veins for no reason

[drifting whale]

Kinda like irl drugs, you think their healty, but their not

[lone folio]

I mean I guess that's somewhat what I'm looking for but still it only makes you feel healthy, doubt that's something trobbio needs

They remind me of steroids if anything. A drug that produces a (if in the right doses) positive effect in the body

[foggy stratus]

Yeah Hunter says it makes you stronger. Shits just fucking steroids with organ liquifying side effects.

[drifting whale]

kinda, but they also give a blue screen if taken, so Ill say they're making you stronger as well giving you a positive effect

[lone folio]

I feel like if you don't take as much lifeblood it will make you less liquefied

But no bug in both games has ever taken a healthy amount

[foggy stratus]

In smol doses its fine. Hell, Hunter has taken it and not gotten liquefied.

[foggy stratus]

Hunter has.

[lone folio]

Actually I'm wrong mb

[random aspen]

im joni

[lone folio]

I forgot about hunter and maybe salubra

[lone folio]

Salubra says "makes you feel healthier doesn't it?" As if she tried it before, or she just heard of how it works and decided to roll with that

[drifting whale]

I mean the hunter is OP, I'm pretty sure the hunter could beat ghost and Hornet at the same time.

[foggy stratus]

Uh huh.

[lone folio]

Overestimation of his strength

[drifting whale]

Maybe not ghost when i think about it, but definetly hornet

[lone folio]

Hornet got a jab at him before he had time to react

[random aspen]

pre or post silksong

[lone folio]

Hunter is a powerful bug but against someone like ghost hell no he's not beating him

[random aspen]

anything void hunter cant do jack

[lone folio]

I would love to see him try and fight back against a spellcasting higher being corpse filled with god killer juice

[lone folio]

Doesn't really matter, before silksong she got a jab at him before he could react

[random aspen]

did it do any damage though

[lone folio]

Clearly she's fast enough to strike him a few times

[random aspen]

mf calls it a stinger 💔

it probably didnt hurt that much bro

[drifting whale]

while his hunter journal does say he couldn't catch her because she stabbed her, if she wouldn't stabbed last second she would be devoured by him so Ill say pre silksong

[random aspen]

post silksong hunter is not standing a chance

[drifting whale]

I would say like a 40% chance

[shut palm]

Well depends on which ending

[random aspen]

only talking about sotv

[shut palm]

???

[random aspen]

sister of the void

😐

[shut palm]

a

[drifting whale]

sure, she got the upper hand then, but the hunter still has alot of experience, so my 40% winning chance for him still stand

[random aspen]

hornet is likely way older

he also only knows his way around hallownest while hornet can adapt

[near jasper]

Hunter loses because he's from hallownest and thus doesnt do double damage

[drifting whale]

but she was most of her life guarding a dead kingdom, the Hunter on the other hand was studying it and everything it has to offer.

[random aspen]

hunter is doing 2 masks if he was a boss bro ✌️

[drifting whale]

if he was a boss then yes, maybe one attack would do 3 masks, like gms

[near jasper]

Nah

[random aspen]

hunter has 0 combat knowledge 💔

he just lunges at things and tries to eat them

hornet was trained by vespa and shit

[near jasper]

That works doesnt it?

[random aspen]

if theyre stupid creatures

and its confirmed hornet is faster than him

[near jasper]

Like the player !

[random aspen]

like at some point hornet will just adapt to his constant lunging and biting

[drifting whale]

Doesnt that also counts as combat? besides, he also beaten larger foes like the elite guardians.

[random aspen]

its predictable

it was only effective for hunter cus 99% of the shit he hunted were non sentient animal creatures or infected brainless husks

[random aspen]

the guys in city of tears?

[floral quiver]

Hunter hasn't technically beaten anything.

[drifting whale]

in my knowledge, he also maneged to hunt down alot of bees, and they were not infected

[random aspen]

the bees are all infected

is it stated that he hunted them before the infection

[drifting whale]

yes, the big red guys in the right area in city of tears

[random aspen]

and you think hornet cant take one of those

[drifting whale]

they were all isolated, how the hell would they be infected?

[near jasper]

Bees are infected

[random aspen]

they spew orange stuff when you hit them bro 💔

[drifting whale]

Does that really matter?

[random aspen]

hive knight is omega infected he starts vomiting bees

[near jasper]

The husk enemies in the hive have orange eyes

[random aspen]

yeah cus hunter beating one of those is irrelevant when comparing hunter and hornet cus hornet can easily take on of those guarsd anyway

[near jasper]

The hive is infected

[random aspen]

forgot about those eww

ari gibson fetish

[drifting whale]

ok, that makes sense then, but it also doesn't make sense on how they get infected

[random aspen]

because the hive is just some honeycombs

thats not gonna block the radiance

also vespa dead as hell so they have no guidance

[near jasper]

How does it not make Sense?

[drifting whale]

does guidance really matter? like Im sure that the mantises would not care if their leaders would die

[random aspen]

they would instantly be infected

look what happened to ants in silksong, ik infection and haunting are different but its the same idea

[near jasper]

It does against the haunting so it probably matters against the infection

[drifting whale]

They were always isolated from the kingdom since the Pale king appeared, how did they then get infected?

[near jasper]

Theyre inside hallownest?

Radiance took everything she could not the people pk liked

[random aspen]

the radiance infects random shadow creepers in the abyss

ofc its gonna infect a bunch of bees

[drifting whale]

but the Mantises also didnt like the Pale king

[near jasper]

Yes

They didnt get infected not because of that

[random aspen]

the mantises arent infected because the mantis lords exist

and these mantises clearly look for guidance since some of them left to follow traitor lord

[near jasper]

Emilitia nearly praises you for just having kings brand she likes pk and is not infected

[drifting whale]

pretty sure that doesnt matter, the traitor mantises only exists because they choose to be infected after all

[random aspen]

because of traitor lord 😭

[drifting whale]

yeah, traitor lord choose the infection and so did many others

[random aspen]

because he guided them

[near jasper]

Your opinion on pk doesnt matter when getting infected

[random aspen]

yeah cus theres 0 chance fluke hermit has any opinion on pk

[drifting whale]

You literally just said she would take everything except the people pk liked

[near jasper]

Nope

[drifting whale]

then what the hell does that mean?

[near jasper]

This but in different wording

[random aspen]

also random ass travelers like cloth cornifer tuk

none of them get infected

[drifting whale]

No I'm pretty sure those two statements are completely different

[random aspen]

and none of them knew who pk was

[near jasper]

Im just shit at wording stuff

[drifting whale]

Well cornifer just arrived, also he's based so obvs he didn't get infected

[random aspen]

the radiance took everything she can, she didnt take the creatures pale king liked

a creature liking pale king wouldnt get you infected

you dont get infected if you have a strong mind or some goal

a strong drive ig

[near jasper]

Or zote

[random aspen]

or just have a massive ego

[drifting whale]

most common bugs liked the pale king, so what happened with them?

[near jasper]

Got infected

[random aspen]

they got infected because pale king gave up

see guidance matters

also why the hive is infected since vespa died

all the devouts and weaver kids in deepnest are infected cus herrah is asleep

mantises are good cus mantis lords are good

[near jasper]

Except midwife

[drifting whale]

What does that have to do with anything? As long as they don't give up what does the PK matter?

[random aspen]

midwife has a strong mind and wisdom or something

[near jasper]

She ate the infection

[random aspen]

also shes really hungry

[random aspen]

because pale king is the king?? 😭

he told them what to do

he gave them all sapience

[drifting whale]

But if only hunger is in Midwifes mind shouldnt she also get infected?

[random aspen]

why would they be glazing him if the bugs can jsut do everythig themselves

midwife is an exception and also irrelevant

but also midwife is aware when you dream nail her, so she clearly has some sort of stronger mind that helps her not get infected

[drifting whale]

So? The dung Defender, who's Pale Kings number 1 fan, dint got infected, so the other could also find their own way

[random aspen]

either that or the dream nail dialogue is her telling the radiance to get out which also works

dung defender has a strong mind

despite everything hes positive

he also protects the waterways

[karmic ferry]

silksong lore btw

🥶🥶

[graceful grail]

Yes, even his actual dreams dont have the radiance. He is always thinking of the glory days.

[drifting whale]

hollow knight lore is the prequel of silksong lore so its te same thing technically

[random aspen]

kinda stupid to hve 2 lore channels tbh

like its the same franchise

[graceful grail]

Some people havent got thru silksong is probably the thought process

[random aspen]

if youre talking about one youre eventually gonna mention the other

[drifting whale]

pretty sure the hive knight was also thinking positive the entire time, yet he got still infected?

[random aspen]

again vespa died

his only guidance was vespa and his own purpose was to protect vespa

and the only thing attacking the hive is the radiance

[drifting whale]

And pale king died, yet Dung defender is still sane without guidance

[random aspen]

so he had nothing to protect when the radiance arrived cus he cant do anything against the radiance

[random aspen]

because he has a strong mind what do you not get bro

not once in his dream is the radiance mentioned

[near jasper]

He is still protecting something

[random aspen]

also yeah he protects the waterways

[near jasper]

And isma

[graceful grail]

DD is the only of his kind in hallownest is also something thats been bothering me. None of the five knights seem to be local residents.

[random aspen]

my headcanon is isma was made by unn 🥀

[drifting whale]

And the hive Knight haven't? He's still proctecting the queens, wich should giving him a sane mindeseet by that standards

[near jasper]

The queen is dead

[random aspen]

he was only protect vespa

[drifting whale]

IRK? all the other ones are dead, except one but she doesn't care at all, and he's the only one still fulfilling his duty, yet he's still sane

[random aspen]

his sole purpose was to protect vespa and the hive

isnt grey mourner dead

like she cant pass in peace

thats why she disintigrates when we do the quest

[drifting whale]

Depends if you do her quest

I'm gonna be honest rn, I kinda forgot how this argument started again, can anybody enlighten me?

[near jasper]

Hunter powerscaling

[drifting whale]

ah yeah

he still can beat hornet pre silksong

[random aspen]

sure

i was just confirming hunter has 0 chance against hornet post silksong

not 40%

[lyric rose]

Honestly idk where Hunter scales

[near jasper]

Hunter is outerversal

[lyric rose]

Above most of Hallownest but like, where’s the cutoff?

Hornet?

Maybe a little lower like Mantis Lords?

[drifting whale]

ok how about 30% cance? he's still very skilled after all?

[lyric rose]

The Hollow Knight?

He can’t beat the radiance obv

[floral quiver]

Silksong's lore only has tangential connections to Hollow Knight's

You can easily play Silksong with no prior experience with Hollow Knight and not feel like you've missed much at all. Thus separating the lore channels allows focused discussion of Pharloom lore in one and Hallownest lore in the other.

[lyric rose]

He doesn’t even really know what radiance is

[random aspen]

his hunting style is like a wild animal

[lyric rose]

Until act 3

[random aspen]

i dont think hornet is falling for that, and she didnt in hk

[drifting whale]

So? A wild animal can still beat many stuff

[random aspen]

void

[random aspen]

hornet is like a person with a gun and hunter is like a big tiger

[floral quiver]

Well yes, but even then it's highly focused on Hornet's backstory rather than the kind of lore focused on in a lore channel.

[random aspen]

the knight appears in the ending

silksong only player: who tf is that

[lyric rose]

Someone’s gonna die

[random aspen]

she just has more tools

whats hunter gonna do when she uses cross stitch on his ass

[floral quiver]

What are most things in Hallownest gonna do, really.

[near jasper]

What are most things gonna do, really.

[lyric rose]

Maybe Hunter killed most of the Mawleks. I dunno what else would be killing them.

I dunno, just random thought

[random aspen]

the infection

[floral quiver]

Very few things in Hallownest are as fast as Hornet doing a Cross Stitch counter

I'd even say none

[lyric rose]

But the Mawleks get infected pretty normally in ancient basin

[lyric rose]

One of them is Watcher at the Edge

[drifting whale]

So? I watched the movie the Fox and the Hound and the hunter had a gun and still couldnt do anything against the bear, so as long as the suprising factor and the tactis are there, Hornet cant just cheese against the hunter

[lyric rose]

But he’s in Pharloom

[lyric rose]

Oh my god

The bear

[random aspen]

https://tenor.com/view/pugsley-pugsley-agenda-pugsley-addams-addams-family-wednesday-gif-16065940998367853919

[lyric rose]

https://tenor.com/view/the-fox-and-the-hound-bear-disney-frustrated-come-at-me-bro-gif-20897052

[near jasper]

People be calling Hunter a wild animal like they didnt lose to savage beastfly

[lyric rose]

That bear hijacks the movie at the end

[drifting whale]

ye, that bear Im talking about

[lyric rose]

That’s no normal bear, that thing was like 6 feet tall ON ALL FOURS

[floral quiver]

Basically, I believe that Hornet was sandbagging hard throughout Hollow Knight. Her attacks even lack runic combat magic!

[lyric rose]

That’s a fehking Arctotherium!

[random aspen]

a person with a triple barrel flaming shotgun in a tank vs big tiger

[drifting whale]

And the hk hunter was no normal hunter, he was like 10 times larger than the mc

[lyric rose]

He’s taller than the hollow knight!

[near jasper]

Bell eater is weird

[drifting whale]

tru, it apereas out of nowhere with no lore and it get killed instantly

[near jasper]

Like yeah theres wyrm sized centipedes in the bellways dont worry about it

[random aspen]

hunter doing jack to gms

nothing to karmelita

[near jasper]

Someone should calculate the amount of bells in the bell veins :)

[random aspen]

bum ass khann can probably take him

[lyric rose]

And in bellhart

[random aspen]

whats the red stuff bell eater shits out

[lyric rose]

You can see bellhart’s true scope from the edge of Shellwood

[drifting whale]

There's to many to calculate that

[lyric rose]

Blood probably

[near jasper]

@lyric rose pfp

[drifting whale]

His Shit obv

[lyric rose]

My PFP? I’m

[near jasper]

Bellhart is part of the bellveins

[random aspen]

i mean hk also had a random ass gigantic creature

except bardoon was chill

[drifting whale]

Nah bro, while glaze king khann, hunter can obv beat him in a 1v1

[lyric rose]

It was me scribbling an image of Fecto Forgo from Kirby and the Forgotten Land over a picture of some random dudes face

[random aspen]

outside of coral gorge yeah

[drifting whale]

and inside it too

[lyric rose]

Khann’s whole thing is that he aurafarms

And the coral around him is so impressed it fights for him

[random aspen]

really whats huner gonna do when he starts spamming spiky coral attacks

he has no ranged attack and hes also too big

[near jasper]

Khann when Hunter drinks the water

[lyric rose]

Is Hunter a giant mosscreep?

[drifting whale]

Destroying the coral and spamming his attacks on khann

[near jasper]

Khanm when you just fucking eat his Head off

[drifting whale]

Hornet also has no ranged attacks and can beat him with only her needle

[random aspen]

shes tiny

[near jasper]

Clawline

[random aspen]

also hornet has ranged attacks fym

[lyric rose]

Toolspam

[drifting whale]

So? Even a better reason why hunter beats khann

[lyric rose]

Silk spear

[random aspen]

hunter is big

and gets hit easier

[lyric rose]

Pale Nails

[drifting whale]

Thats meant for obstacles, not combat

[random aspen]

coral attack is big

[lyric rose]

Shaman crest

[lyric rose]

Ummm

[near jasper]

Skill issue

[lyric rose]

Someone hasn’t been using clawline enough in combat

[drifting whale]

but do he can also destroy the coral easier

[random aspen]

https://tenor.com/view/gaongenre-spongebob-patrick-stupid-idiot-gif-4545793449574515217

[lyric rose]

The point of clawline is to close distance on enemies

Dealing damage in the process

[random aspen]

coral is hard like rock

[lyric rose]

And getting in range for follow up needle hits

[drifting whale]

I never found a way to beat enemies with clawline, I only beat the to death with the needle

[random aspen]

yeah cus the obstacle only ability recharges your silk when you hit an enemy with it 🤪

[near jasper]

Skill issue

[random aspen]

let me guess you hate nyleth

[drifting whale]

wdy? I beat the game 100% only with needle, wheres the skill issuEß

[random aspen]

hardest part of 100% silksong is some flea games ✌️

[near jasper]

Anyways hunter just bites khanns head of when he does the roar when starting the fight

[drifting whale]

nah, the boss was actually pretty fun

[drifting whale]

also no, they were pretty easy

[random aspen]

so was anything hard

[drifting whale]

Yes sir, Hunter just solos khann

[random aspen]

khann isnt coming without his army anyways

[drifting whale]

His arms are his main weapon, if they're gone he's fucked

[random aspen]

the coral he summons: yoooo

[near jasper]

Hunter would leave karak alone because theyre too hard to crack when he can just grab some crustnut for the same flavor but better

[lyric rose]

Nyleth’s pollen storm is the games way of saying “use Clawline or get out”

Because a normal dash doesn’t give that level of horizontal distance

[drifting whale]

I just use down attack with hunter crest and thats how I beat the boss

And if she use the pollen shit i just dashed away

[random aspen]

js use clawline atp

[drifting whale]

Clawline is useless in combat

[random aspen]

says the guy who has never used it

[drifting whale]

I have used it in obstacles, but in combat its usless

[lyric rose]

Then why is there a tool that increases clawline damage?

[random aspen]

because you have never used it in combat

[drifting whale]

No idea, I guess that one of the only errors of Team Cherry for making this game

[drifting whale]

I tried, but it never brought to anything

[random aspen]

because youre bad at using it

swing needle... needle sharp.. needle stab needle good

thats your thought process when fighting bosses

[near jasper]

Throw needle

Needle good

👍

[random aspen]

limiting yourself for the sake of limiting yourself

play the game however you want but dont call something useless just cus you yourself didnt use it

[drifting whale]

I mean thats all you need to know when fighting bosses

[near jasper]

Ok Hunter

[drifting whale]

I never saw anybody using the clawline for combat, that also why I say its useless in combat

[random aspen]

maybe look a bit harder

bro looked at 2 first time playthroughs of some random youtuber

[near jasper]

I like how team cherry made the writing system for lore tablets in silksong

[drifting whale]

I looked at like 6, not only first playthroughs, and nobody knows how to use it in combat

[random aspen]

https://tenor.com/view/average-witch-crest-speed-kill-gif-16326558384304353968

do that

[drifting whale]

He used mods obv

[random aspen]

no 💔

[near jasper]

Yes thats how you get health bars

[random aspen]

thats just what clawline sawtooth circlet slop looks like

[drifting whale]

then where the hell did that health bar poped out?

[random aspen]

im sure you can figure that out yourself

i wont underestimate your intelligence

[near jasper]

Clawline is good in combat

[drifting whale]

Oh I know, he got that per mods, like how he got that clawline boost.

[random aspen]

the gif is slightly sped up

but sure bro

also clawline gives you iframes i forgot about that

kinda neat to do in combat when youre about get rammed in the face

[drifting whale]

I've never sawn anybody use a clawline in combat effectivity, why should I trust a random gif you just posted me?

[random aspen]

clawline is really good in beastfly 2

[random aspen]

6

[near jasper]

Beastfly 2 is an easy cheese

[near jasper]

Lol

[drifting whale]

Never saw that either. besides, all you have to do is attack him and his lava spitting minions in his fight and hes dead

[random aspen]

just give up

[near jasper]

"attack the boss and he'll die"

[random aspen]

dodge to not get hit

[drifting whale]

ye, That's how I killed every boss

[random aspen]

how boring

[near jasper]

🤯

[drifting whale]

Its the normal way, how's that boring

[random aspen]

youre boring

[drifting whale]

How?

[lyric rose]

https://tenor.com/view/ss-silksong-hollow-knight-hk-skong-gif-16335370890033522618

[drifting whale]

witch crest is weird tbh, I only used hunter