sk-lore

[twin dragon]

They had another thing to keep track of

[sick tinsel]

we know that the ruling class was corrupt so it would make more sense for them to chase riches of others

[floral quiver]

We can assume that they're corrupt. The only living leader we meet is upstanding and pious.

[sick tinsel]

and he expressed regret about exploited pharloom bugs

[floral quiver]

He regrets his sect's failure and death.

[twin dragon]

Only upstading in front of someone, who he may assume, is of ruling class since yk, they're there

hes blatantly unaware

[sick tinsel]

death ?

[floral quiver]

He assumes Hornet is a pilgrim.

[floral quiver]

The Citadel is effectively dead by game start.

[limpid summit]

He’s only calm because he’s dying and has realized the futility of his rule

His dialogue is all about how the conductors were greedy and had fatal hubris

Ballador a not a great guy

[sick tinsel]

but his song is a hidden gem 🌹 ❤️‍🩹

[limpid summit]

True

[twin dragon]

"devout"

[sick tinsel]

atleast he regret it

[twin dragon]

we're uh

defending the citadel rulers now?

"Upstanding and pious"

yeah hitler could've had an upstanding and pious convo with someone he likes one on one

[sick tinsel]

i kinda felt empathy for ballador

seeing him on life support

[twin dragon]

💔

Is it over for hk fans

[sick tinsel]

i felt empathy for ballador but never for the pale king 💔

[floral quiver]

Same!

[lone folio]

Honestly I saw ballador crushed and then I went "and darn he's de- HOLY SHIT LORE ITEM NO TIME FOR GRIEF I NEED TO GO"

[sick tinsel]

after all, ballador was no more than a part of a system he didnt create

[floral quiver]

Very much so

And his sect, to him and his fellows, had a sacred and terrible purpose to hide and contain a dread god while also attempting to be what amounts to heaven on earth.

[limpid summit]

And they did that

Until after cogwork core where they had their work cut out for them but decided to become immortal because they were greedy

[floral quiver]

Less greed more "immortality would mean our terrible purpose will be able to be fulfilled eternally and our purpose goes above anything"

The bugs of the Citadel take their purpose very seriously fron all we see.

[sick tinsel]

atp even those who know the citadel purpose are driven mad by thier own thoughts

[floral quiver]

Mhm. It's a burden that breaks bugs.

[limpid summit]

No I wouldn’t say so

Architects and Vaultkeepers were successive

The present caste of Conductors were simply greedy

Cogwork Core was their last edict the Citadel would have been fine if they didn’t merge silk straight from GMS with the silk in bugs

[floral quiver]

Greedy for what? They mint and control the currency. Nearly all of their interactions with the outside world was in relation to finishing automating the Song.

[sick tinsel]

yes but dont forget that they knew well that the whole religion system is wrong and they are just exploiting weak bugs

they theemselves thought that they are doing something great by that

[limpid summit]

"By the will of the Conductors," we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree.
But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.

They were greedy for rule

[floral quiver]

Their whole religious system was correct?

The song kept a dread goddess asleep. That the lower ranks and outsiders didn't know why they were singing doesn't make their sect wrong.

Because the Song did what it was designed to do.

[limpid summit]

They were initially greedy, took the burden, hid it, created the Core which I guess was sort of just but they also like subjugated Verdania and stuff and perpetuated the poor quality of life found in the Citadel and bleak promise of safety

Then after they created the Core they got greedy again and attempted to become immortal

Causing the Haunting

So they’re not great

[sick tinsel]

dunno

[sinful nimbus]

Go easy on the upper class ruling is yoke not crown

[limpid summit]

Won’t somebody think of the gigantic dudes covered all in gold

[twin dragon]

yeah im not gonna engage

[twin dragon]

verdania's fall was because of the haunting

[twin dragon]

Star can you believe this

[sinful nimbus]

Its kinda true to some extent

[limpid summit]

I mean like

Sure?

But killing half the power of the land probably didn’t help

[twin dragon]

The ruling class did perpetuate the cycle and worsened it for literally everyone doe

[twin dragon]

Old hearts = batteries now

[sinful nimbus]

yeah ofc

[twin dragon]

I wouldnt have empathy for ballador unless there wasnt an overly generous rosary deposit right next to him

[plain ruin]

I wish Ballador had more dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah he's cool

Love his voice

[twin dragon]

blissfully ignorant

[plain ruin]

Of what?

[twin dragon]

everything below him

[plain ruin]

He’s aware that the Citadel has fallen quiet

[sick tinsel]

ive been brainwashed by citadel propaganda

[floral quiver]

My issue is that it wasn't greed that drove the Citadel to enact its terrible evils. It was zealotry and a sense of purpose.

They werent in it for the money as a sect. They were driven by the idea that not doing what they did would have consequences.

Which is as bad but not the same

[twin dragon]

I guessed as much

[limpid summit]

Greed doesn’t have to be money

No one’s talking about money

[plain ruin]

He’s surely aware of the Underworks and the daunting journey of the Pilgrims

[twin dragon]

Yes those massive cascades of temperate water is indeed not a sign of greed

[twin dragon]

Won't take accountability for it

fuck ballador

[plain ruin]

Definitely, he sees it all as necessary for the Citadel to be as grand as it is

[sick tinsel]

keep in mind that the benches are literally paid

[twin dragon]

(But it actually isn't and that's my point)

[sick tinsel]

they profit off pilgrims even in thier way to the citadel

[twin dragon]

Having a currency that doubles as the prayer bead is indeed, not greed

[spark valve]

TC really got rich then said not all billionaires

[floral quiver]

I mean, is it not?

How do you power something like the Citadel and create everything it needs and uses?

[limpid summit]

Whatever the process it probably doesn’t involve stuffing silk into yourself

Bravo Mizello

Bravissimo

[floral quiver]

Well no, but that's seperate from what I was questioning.

[spark valve]

I mean at least they didn’t hoard the immortality arguably that’s better in some ways

[limpid summit]

Yeah because it barely worked it just killed everyone

[spark valve]

It killed some folks don’t really know what the success rate was

[floral quiver]

I was questioning the assumption that the Underworks are unnecessary for the Citadel's operation

[limpid summit]

The cogwork core probably required the murder of countless pilgrims but if you wanted to be generous (glazing) you could say the Weavers just turned them all into silkflies during their era and the Conductors just collected them

[plain ruin]

Probably only killed after repeated surgeries

[limpid summit]

I don’t think anyone but a Conductor could afford a silk drip

[spark valve]

The conductors have a whole ass edict about people getting silkflied

[limpid summit]

True

[floral quiver]

Brave martyrs who give their souls to continue the Song and Pharlooms glory even after death.

[limpid summit]

I’m just saying that because Sentinels have silkflies in them

[spark valve]

I mean yeah they’re copying weavers through and through

[limpid summit]

Long live PK! A beautiful society where no one has to die to perpetuate

[sick tinsel]

brave souls that beared the pain of eternal labour and suffering 💔

[plain ruin]

This is Poggy Thorax erasure he died so that Hallownest could live smh

[sick tinsel]

except his own children

[foggy stratus]

That was actually necessary.

[sick tinsel]

keeping GMS asleep is also necessary

[floral quiver]

Truly their sacrifice shall be remembered by their brothers and sisters even on down the millennia

[twin dragon]

Because it doesnt need the big flowing cascades and wtv high halls is

[twin dragon]

Some might be an understatement honestly

[foggy stratus]

Instead of using Pilgrims to power it, why not use silk or electricity to power the Citadel? Clearly they have access to both.

[spark valve]

They use both

Not really electricity but steam power

[sick tinsel]

instead of using your own children to absorb the radiance, why not use the power of soul and trap it

[twin dragon]

Keeping the underworkers, yk, enslaved isnt also a necessity

[sick tinsel]

the soul sanctum seemed to close to a pure focus

[foggy stratus]

That's not how Soul works.

[foggy stratus]

The Soul Sanctum were a bunch of Soul addicts.

[twin dragon]

Soul sanctum were a bunch of idiots

[sick tinsel]

thinking about it they are basically pharloom ruling class

would whiteward workers get along with soul sanctum scientists

[plain ruin]

Definitely

[twin dragon]

Pk had enough decency to deny the soul master

[foggy stratus]

Dunno. Its always been my personal belief the Soul Sanctum would think that Whiteward is super fcuked up.

[floral quiver]

Whether they were enslaved or not is unknown.

We don't know if they were there forever or if it was a ritualistic purification through work to support their future fellow sect members.

All we have are Hornet's opinions which are not objective as she doesnt have enough context to be a reliable source.

[sick tinsel]

they are literally doing the EXACT same expermients on bugs 🥀

[foggy stratus]

Not the same. They were taking soul out of other buts and stuffing it into themselves.

[twin dragon]

it doesnt seem very ritualistic as they were forced to spend wtv little they earned on rest

without counting other possible expenses

I think the benches alone show you everything you need to know

[sick tinsel]

and others were stuffing it into machines

whiteward seems more humane than the sanctum

[floral quiver]

25 per rest out of a potentially 576 rosary payout?

[twin dragon]

This is an implied payout of one specific kind of job

thats also not always consistent

and it requires backbreaking work to reach that payout

[floral quiver]

And? That gives precedent considering the job is dirt simple.

[twin dragon]

Like we deadass defending very obviously bad shit like this

[twin dragon]

Even loam can't seem to get out mate

[limpid summit]

Soul sanctum probably killed more heads lowkey

Or

[twin dragon]

loam runs on 4 treadmills at once row

[limpid summit]

Eh

[twin dragon]

on 4

[foggy stratus]

Running full sprint for literal hours straight?

[limpid summit]

You could argue either

[floral quiver]

Yes. Like, backbreaking labor was the standard before machine automation made the actual difficult and repetitive jobs of factory work being done by humans obsolete.

And 60 currency per hour, given the price of things we see, is fairly solid compensation.

[twin dragon]

Exploitation was never necessary and 60 rosaries per hour is literally nothing

when they have to be working the full hour and paying nearly half for a momentary rest

[sinful nimbus]

they're loaded with cash bruh

They could probably make some extra cash by selling their shellshards too

[floral quiver]

Yeah, the amount held not matching the amount directly given is my entire issue.

I think the work that is able to be done by Hornet gives too much money.

[midnight reef]

I'm a bit surprised nobody buys Shell Shards

Maybe something I'll add in Silksoul?

[twin dragon]

Or theyre just.. not conditioned for that kind of work, having their lungs rival the ones of a 40 year old smoker

And whatever they earn isnt enough

Loams there and does 4x the work simulatenously

[graceful grail]

I think lost lace wasn’t originally intended to be the final boss.

I say this because her music doesn’t have her motif at all.

It has grandmother silks motif, and the beginning of hornets motif mixed together.

Am I wrong for thinking this???

[floral quiver]

You are correct

[twin dragon]

It doesnt have laces motif?

[floral quiver]

Act three is a relatively late addition.

[twin dragon]

Late is 2020 ish

[floral quiver]

Yeah, relatively

[swift needle]

Lost lace is a very thematically fitting last boss

[foggy stratus]

Its just a third Lace fight. Me no likey.

[twin dragon]

I mean the ost was composed when everything else was done presumably

The fact that it might not have laces motif def isnt because of time constraints

Im gonna be checking that tomorrow

[graceful grail]

Sure, time constraints

[swift needle]

The dlcs prolly gonna give us a boss which can rival the significance and impact of the radiance

[twin dragon]

Time constraints of having to train the violinst to pull that shit off

[twin dragon]

Lost lace already does

[near jasper]

I feel like gms does that

[swift needle]

Js saying this for people who don't like her as a final boss

[twin dragon]

Give them flashy slop

[graceful grail]

It could just have been grandmother silk protecting lace just as much as lace fighting for herself.

I was saying the musical motif that lace has isn’t in the lost lace piece at all.

And lace’s music is in 5/4 timing and sometimes 3/4 timing.

Whereas lost lace is in 4/4 timing with three measure phrases

[twin dragon]

Are you completely sure that it doesnt have laces motif?

[swift needle]

Subtle glare effect

[sick tinsel]

city of steel masters ?

or some plasmium god or smth

[swift needle]

Smthing flashy i guess

Cuz people say lost lace is underwhelming or smthing

Which is js wrong

[sick tinsel]

lost lace is NOWHERE close to radiance level

lost lace is basically strong because the fight is on the midle of the abyss

and if hornet couldve won with a needle why cant a literal god win

[graceful grail]

I only don’t like her because every single one of her attacks can be avoided with a simple hop.

(Except for a single attack, which punishes when you jump on it.)

[twin dragon]

A simple hop

By herself sure, but the combination of zoning stuff forces you to move around

[graceful grail]

It was recorded in a different studio than strive and lace.

Which tells me it might’ve been recorded much later

You can rly tell if you’ve recorded something before.

[floral quiver]

That's another pertinate consideration.

Like, I get the thematics. I get the intent. But these kinds of questions directly affect if it was oppressive in universe.

This happens a lot where the obvious intent was to show oppression, but if you get into the weeds you sometimes find that the oppression is mostly aesthetic and visual identifiers of oppression rather than, like oppression.

Like, it's oppression if they can't eventually leave and join the Citadel, which we don't actually have info on one way or another.

If they can't then it's extremely oppressive and enslavement under false pretenses.

If they can, then it's an admittedly harsh bit of purification through work from a culture that treats effort and work as sacred and holy rites in and of themselves and what right do I have to denigrate their deeply held beliefs, to act like I know better and my beliefs are inherently worth more than theirs?

[twin dragon]

I mean yeah? Strive n lace were the first ones

[twin dragon]

I dont think they can

Some of them are straight up bred for their jobs n no pilgrims that seem to be in the citadel were inside of the uw once

It would be very unfitting if the oppressive religious regime could just let em.. finish their work (that also pays them literal grains of sand and exposes to the most lethal kinds of machinery) walk out and bathe in their glory

[near jasper]

There also just full on slaves like phantom

And the confessional machine tells you to not eat until the next cycle everytime

[floral quiver]

Phantom is a weird case. We dont know if that's a Citadel thing or a Silk thing.

[near jasper]

They are working a part of the underworks I think we should count her

[floral quiver]

Yes, but if it's done on Silk's relatively direct orders blaming the Citadel is kinda disingenuous

[twin dragon]

I doubt silk would just

Let contribute towards her slumber

[near jasper]

I feel like silk doesnt care that much about keeping the citadel clean

Half the place is covered by dusty silk dregs if you look closely

[twin dragon]

Shes aiding her own cage which wouldnt make much sense

[floral quiver]

The cage that she has almost entirely subverted even before "actually" waking up.

[twin dragon]

Yeah but shes gonna keep herself asleep further

[near jasper]

Wait I just noticed something

Gms wants us to be brought to the cradle so she can bind us

[twin dragon]

Most of the citadels also "sleeping" before hornet arrives there

[floral quiver]

The music box doesnt work. The Core doesn't successfully automate the Song.

[twin dragon]

And the pilgrims STILL sing which would imply silk doesnt have direct control over the bugs

[near jasper]

But she blocks the only conductor left with the melody that would make us get to the cradle

[twin dragon]

You also want her to somehow about this specific place thats also hella hidden away in the citadel?

[graceful grail]

Maybe the conductors were trying to get out of there too, and pass off the torch to something else.

[floral quiver]

We dont know that. I'm almost certain that exactly what Silk wants with Weaverkin is never elucidated on.

[graceful grail]

Also, why is GMS so humanoid looking?

[near jasper]

Sex appeal

[twin dragon]

If she had more arms it would be better

Tbf

Like visible at any time

[floral quiver]

Note that her legs aren't part of her body. They're later additions.

[near jasper]

-# she has legs?

[floral quiver]

From everything shown, the big plan was to turn the Citadel into what amounts to a giant music box maintained by machines, because bugs are inherently fallible.

[floral quiver]

Yes?

Metal ones.

See

[kindred ingot]

That's a leg and a half

[graceful grail]

Her arms??

[near jasper]

Thats more of leg but ok sure

[kindred ingot]

What kind of bug even is GMS

[twin dragon]

Her design looks very akward without it

[plain ruin]

really fuckin' big one

[floral quiver]

Those arent connected to her arms. Theyre connected to her lower body

[kindred ingot]

She's still smaller than most Marrow corpses

[near jasper]

"Fat ball of soul"

Or pale being if you like that name more

[floral quiver]

My point is that unlike her arms, her lower appendages arent naturally part of her body, which I find neat

[kindred ingot]

No, she's still something even when you take out the silk

[twin dragon]

Man shes ugly without the leg doe

[kindred ingot]

Also, White Lady is basically just a fat ball of soul too but she's still something

A root

GMS is nothing

[floral quiver]

Well yeah.

She's designed to have legs

[twin dragon]

Gms doesnt fly btw, she uses her hair as grappling hooks

[near jasper]

Gms is a crab

[kindred ingot]

Then how come her hair be always pointing down?

And never up

Like what a grappling hook would be doing

[foggy stratus]

Have you ever seen a Malicous Face from ULTRAKILL?

[twin dragon]

Alike to tendrils not a grappling hook mb

[kindred ingot]

No

[graceful grail]

She looks like Phantom after you take away most of the silk, is 100% silk

[twin dragon]

And i did make that up but imagine how that would look like

[kindred ingot]

Yeah but she's obviously NOT a silk construct

[foggy stratus]

Oh. Well they appear to float but actually have leg like appendages that they use as legs.

[near jasper]

Phantom had hair like lace before but she ate it to stay alive

[graceful grail]

U sure

[kindred ingot]

She's the one who makes the silk constructs

She's naturally occuring

[floral quiver]

Silk is the silk. The black is inanimate matter she uses because silk threads lack ability to affect things like a body does.

Effectively her internals are an artificial skeleton! 😄

(Entirely headcanon)

[kindred ingot]

That'd be like saying Unn is actually the acid lake and the snail is just a body Unn controls

[near jasper]

What do you think silk tastes like

[kindred ingot]

Like... uh...

Silk

Silk is a thing that exists

[near jasper]

What does soul taste like

[graceful grail]

Phantom has one of those coat tails that you flap behind you when you’re sitting on the piano bench.

[kindred ingot]

My guess is that it tastes like a cold liquid that makes you warmer inside

Like alcohol

But less bitter

[near jasper]

I feel like soul tastes salty

[floral quiver]

No?

Silk is silk. She doesnt just control it, she is it.

Unn is a snail, Silk is silk, all soulsilk in Pharloom.

What I was headcanoning is like a slime creature using an articulated statue as a "body" so it can punch things

[kindred ingot]

I think it would make more sense for GMS to be an entity that controls silk than the silk itself

Cuz like, other things can make silk

Weavers can make silk

[near jasper]

Not a great example when gms made them

[kindred ingot]

Pharlids might be able to make silk

[kindred ingot]

Yeah but the silk they use isn't itself GMS

[near jasper]

Styx probably makes silk

[graceful grail]

One thing we know about soul is that it’s very light. Just having enough of it in you makes you able to fly.

[kindred ingot]

Styx's Queen probably does, not him

[graceful grail]

Nah, he squeezes it out of the silk eaters

[kindred ingot]

The Queen from the egg

[near jasper]

He has a silk nest

[floral quiver]

And the Unraveled?

That is literally the silk in the room, with the Conductor corpse being a puppet

[kindred ingot]

Silkeaters seem to both make silk and eat it

[graceful grail]

Enough silk can make a silk heart. When you get all the silk out of Bell beast, it makes one.

Perhaps a silk eaters eventually make silk hearts

[kindred ingot]

...what about it?
The Unravelled is a bunch of corpses being controlled by GMS
Cuz that's what she does
She controls silk

[near jasper]

"Fragile egg containing a young Silkeater Queen. Though the Queen cannot gather Silk itself[...]"

[kindred ingot]

New DLC where we can fight Styx to get a fourth silk heart

[kindred ingot]

Oh
...what's the rest?

I'm curious

[near jasper]

Why would they need to sense silk over a distance if they make it on their own

[near jasper]

"Fragile egg containing a young Silkeater Queen. Though the Queen cannot gather Silk itself, with time and care it could be raised to breed more Silkeaters."

[kindred ingot]

Oh, ok
So, the Queen can't do anything with silk, but the Silkeaters can

[graceful grail]

Eww

[near jasper]

The skynx fight in steel soul will be really hard

[kindred ingot]

Also, the existence of Silkeaters implies that GMS has been a problem for so long that some bugs evolved to take advantage from her

[graceful grail]

We don’t need hornet more powerful. Unlimited silk skills is two OP.

[kindred ingot]

Weavelight:

[near jasper]

Skynx's cut needolin dialogue is weird

[kindred ingot]

What is it?

[near jasper]

I shall not be?...
No more me?...
Sweet little thingssss...
To feed... To swell...
To cleanssse.

[kindred ingot]

Sounds like it just copied Styx's dying thoughts

More evidence of Nosk

[near jasper]

Yeah but like

[near jasper]

How the hell is that its thoughts

Also needolin dialogue doesnt even keep the ssss speech quirk like it Removes every other speech quirk

Why does It get a speech quirk

[kindred ingot]

"Am I dying? Is it the end of me? What about my morsels? Who will feed them? Who will cleanse them?"

[near jasper]

How is that what skynx is thinking

[kindred ingot]

My guess? TC forgor to take the speech quirk off

[near jasper]

Didnt happen anywhere else in the game

I feel like they shouldve known by the time to develop steel soul

[kindred ingot]

Skynx is a Nosk, or some other kind of mimic (other options include Void and something else entirely, but I'm 99% sure it is not Void)
So, it did what mimics do

It mimicked

If it IS a Nosk, it makes it easier to understand, cuz Nosks can read minds

[near jasper]

The needolin makes people Sing what theyre thinking, why would skynx be thinking styx's thoughts on dying to know what to copy

[kindred ingot]

...now I would have a PERFECT explanation for that, but it works if and only if Skynx is Void

Which I'm pretty sure it isn't

[near jasper]

I dont think its void

It has a will

And a Voice to cry suffering

[kindred ingot]

So the best I can do is... well, it doesn't have anything better to think about, so it's just remembering what Styx thought

Or it's true thoughts are hidden like Nosk's were

[graceful grail]

Blue tool trade-off makes it OK

[kindred ingot]

Void can have a will
It imprints on the will of others

[kindred ingot]

So does The Collector

[near jasper]

I dont see why there would just be a creature of the abyss chilling in a hole in sinners road

[kindred ingot]

Steel Soul does have a reputation of messing with Void

Also, I didn't say "creature of the Abyss", I said straight up Void construct

Like the Collector

[near jasper]

Hell Nah

[kindred ingot]

Why it's there? Idk, Absolom messed up or smth

It would make way more sense if Skynx was Act 3 locked

[graceful grail]

It specifically inprints depending on its shell. And mask

Naturally void only seeks soul. But the vessels shell and mask make them want to contain the radiance.

That’s why when the hollow Knights seal begins to break the vessels returned to hallownest. Because they are willed to contain the radiance.

[kindred ingot]

My theory is that it's not the Vessel's will that they imprinted on (newborn babies have no will), it's the Pale King's (no mind to think, no will to break, ect)

Void just desperately clings to any will it can find, that's why it's so hard to make a pure vessel

And why it's so easy to make Void Constructs that follow orders well

Like, Pale King made Wingsmoulds in bulk, and none of them failrd

[graceful grail]

We’re forgetting the emphasis that team cherry puts on masks and how they define you

[kindred ingot]

Cuz Void is the easiest thing to program

[graceful grail]

And you program it by getting it a mask which inPrints a will on them

[kindred ingot]

Just give it one order, and it will follow

[kindred ingot]

Yeah
That's probably what PK did with the Kingsmoulds

[graceful grail]

Yes

[kindred ingot]

But it's not the only way

The Void from the Black Threads imprinted directly on GMS's will, with no masks involved

[graceful grail]

It’s just using the threads to climb up to pharloom because it wants the soul there.

[kindred ingot]

Her will to live, to keep her daughter alive, and to kill Hornet, the first one and the last one manifesting as the Black Threads

[kindred ingot]

If that were the case, Black-Threaded bugs wouldn't be aggressive

[graceful grail]

What are you talking about, a voided bug would naturally be averted to anything with soul in it. Just like it normally does in the abyss. It thrashes around as soon as hornet gets close.

[kindred ingot]

Then why didn't Lost Garmond try to kill Zaza?

[graceful grail]

He probably did

[kindred ingot]

He was perfectly still until Hornet and only Hornet got close

Cuz GMS wants to kill Hornet, and the Void imprinted on that

GMS has no beef with Zaza

[graceful grail]

Zaza is literally hiding in the background

[floral quiver]

The Unraveled isn't corpses being puppeted by Silk. Its whole deal is that it's effectively a miniature hive-mind of souls trapped in the dregs left over from the silk infusion experiments. If the souls of the dead can be imprinted onto silk hard enough that they persist long after their bodies deaths, why can't Silk be silk rather than a creature affecting it?

[graceful grail]

GMS is not controlling the void in anyway. Or has influenced the void in anyway.

[kindred ingot]

I mean he only gets aggressive when Hornet specifically appears, and only to Hornet

[graceful grail]

You’re making a bad argument here

For gameplay reasons, obviously he isn’t going to be already charging at you

And Zaza comes for hornets help for a reason

[kindred ingot]

Yeah, cuz his best friend is acting weird
But up until Hornet appears, Garmond never attacks anything

[graceful grail]

There’s nothing around him to attack really

[kindred ingot]

And he continues to not attack anything other than Hornet

[sick tinsel]

friend spider, hunter in red, hurry hurry

[kindred ingot]

There's Zaza

[sick tinsel]

we ALL shoul agree that zaza needolin dialogue is the saddest

[kindred ingot]

The Void imprints on wills, including GMS's
GMS isn't controlling the Void nor has she started the Black Threads on purpose, but the Void was influenced by GMS's will

Cuz that's what it does

At least that's my theory, but I don't see a reason why it would be wrong

[terse warren]

Never was it stated Void imprints on wills

The void just consumes

Bugs with high enough strength and willpower can resist the Black Thread the same way they could resist the Haunting

But the Black Thread is stronger so Garmond falls behind a bit

[graceful grail]

The void would do the same thing whether or not it was influenced by that will.

Things that cannot be proven, unfortunately cannot be affirmed as fact, untill proven otherwise

[terse warren]

Aside from him not attacking Zaza for gameplay purposes, it's also possible that Garmond, being a strong willed individual, was able to at least restrain himself from attacking his closest friend

[kindred ingot]

It is heavily implied

[terse warren]

Where

[kindred ingot]

At least from my point of view

[kindred ingot]

By the lore of the entire first game and the continuation of it in the second

Where Void imprinting on a will is the cause of the conflict

[floral quiver]

Yeah I'm confused about the Void being manipulatible by will.

[graceful grail]

I will can be imposed on void by stuffing it in a shell. But that’s pretty much the only known way other than collector being an exception.

[floral quiver]

What?

[kindred ingot]

Pure Vessel getting impure

[foggy stratus]

It started off impure.

[sick tinsel]

he never was pure

infact no vessel is pure

[terse warren]

Mfs gonna be asked to provide a source and their reply gonna be "play the game" 🥀

[floral quiver]

There's no such thing as a pure vessel

[sick tinsel]

play the game

[kindred ingot]

Also the Love key Bug talks about them and Collector being "like one" now, which implies that the Collector is either part of them (probably not) or exactly like them (Void imprinted on a will)

[graceful grail]

Purity was never even an option really because it wasn’t possible.

The only real way to deal with the radiance was to destroy it.

But there was no known way of doing that at the time so they were doing what they knew to do and prayed.

[floral quiver]

That there could be was a mistaken belief of the King

[kindred ingot]

Yeah cuz they all imprinted on the will of the Pale King when he said the "no cost too great" speech

[sick tinsel]

guess the pale king didnt know about dream nail

[foggy fractal]

idk maybe once you play the game enough you'll understand

[foggy stratus]

He probably didn't actually.

[kindred ingot]

Dream Nail doesn't even work on THK

[terse warren]

You know this guy played the game because he randomly connected the Abyss speech to No Cost Too Great, two things that aren't even said close to each other

[floral quiver]

Thats not how that works.

The Mask is what gives the vessels direction.

[sick tinsel]

if he did we wouldnt have gotten our beloved bug game

[foggy stratus]

[kindred ingot]

Wha
The speech starts with "no cost too great"
It's the part that rhymes with "no will to break"

[floral quiver]

Effectively, a vessels mask is a programmable thing onto which instructions can be put.

[kindred ingot]

No cost too great, no mind to think, no will to break, no voice to cry suffering, born of god and void

[floral quiver]

Just like the runes inscribed on Citadel robots

[kindred ingot]

Vessels are corpses of dead children, not constructs

[terse warren]

[kindred ingot]

Im honestly confused

[graceful grail]

That’s probably why there’s so many different shells in the abyss. PK probably knew what he was looking for and that’s probably why he picked PV over the others

[terse warren]

Nah I'm just ragebaiting now

Mb

[floral quiver]

They are constructs built from the corpses of dead children

[kindred ingot]

Oh, then fuck you

[kindred ingot]

...what

[foggy fractal]

L ragebait, where are the mods???

[kindred ingot]

No

They're just dead children

[terse warren]

We need higher quality ragebait asap

[kindred ingot]

Pale King probably didn't even bother looking at most of the Vessels

[terse warren]

I'm pretty sure everyone in this Convo is wrong but I genuinely should sleep

[kindred ingot]

He just yelled the speech down there to give them direction and waited

[graceful grail]

They’re empty husks. Hollowed out bodies which purpose was to be filled with void. They might never have been alive.

[foggy fractal]

aye how about me

[kindred ingot]

They're literally Pale King's children

Pale King had kids

[graceful grail]

That doesn’t mean they were ever alive

[kindred ingot]

Live kids

On eggs

[floral quiver]

Vessels arent the dead children. The dead children are effectively containers and conveyance for the void powered masks that hold the instructions given to a vessel

[kindred ingot]

That he threw in the Abyss

[sick tinsel]

because thats sk lore not hk

[terse warren]

The eggs even are corrupted by Void they were never born

[kindred ingot]

So he just had a bunch of miscarriages?

[terse warren]

That too

Move to #hk-lore

[terse warren]

Yes actually

[graceful grail]

Purposeful miscarriages

[foggy stratus]

They're children of the PK and WL who before they hatched got chucked into the Abyss to be Hollowed out by Void.

[terse warren]

They were all stillborn

[foggy stratus]

Spawn killed.

[terse warren]

You're not in the Convo and also you could never be wrong so you were implicitly removed

[kindred ingot]

Industrial scale abortion

[terse warren]

Yes that's what it was

[floral quiver]

Yes.

[terse warren]

I'm unsure how to make this more clear

[floral quiver]

To be used to make a void based construct powered by a forsaken child

[kindred ingot]

I was just confused cuz someone said hat Vessels were constructs

[floral quiver]

They are

Just magical ones

[kindred ingot]

They're dead children chucked into the Abyss, not constructs

[floral quiver]

Effectively they are magical machines

[kindred ingot]

Unless you could children as constructs

[terse warren]

Well, no they aren't machines

[sick tinsel]

why people have to make this exact topic complex its basically void infested babies

[terse warren]

I'm also unsure where you got the idea that their shell is programmed?

[foggy fractal]

insert all might raising his arm gif

[terse warren]

They were "born" with it

[terse warren]

True

[terse warren]

Well no because they were never born

Which I feel makes PK's actions a bit less gruesome

[sick tinsel]

true

[graceful grail]

Their mask is what imprint the will on them.

[floral quiver]

Because thats the point of masks. Masks are identity. A vessels mask tells it what to do

[sick tinsel]

dosent change the fact the ones that hatched still rottedin the abyss

[floral quiver]

Thus they are constructs

[terse warren]

Holy dream reference

[foggy fractal]

Thats what the mask is as some would say

[floral quiver]

Made from biological material and void

[terse warren]

They were born with it though

It's their exoskeleton

[sick tinsel]

its thier skull bro

[terse warren]

Yeahg

[sick tinsel]

masks are the ones on bugs like quirrel

if vessels have masks then also the pale king

[graceful grail]

They have natural, organic masks. Hornet has a mask. Mask maker says so.

[floral quiver]

The Mask is what keeps them from just being void creatures. It's what gives them purpose and direction.

But it is effectively artificial

[sick tinsel]

mask maker isnt some godly creature to know everything, hornet in red memory seems to be born with the mask

[floral quiver]

Because the entire vessel is artificial. A created thing that happens to use biological parts.

[graceful grail]

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. She has a natural mask.

[terse warren]

"A created thing" it's a kid

[floral quiver]

No. Its a vessel

[sick tinsel]

then tbh thats more of a skull than a mask

[floral quiver]

The kid died and its body was used to make the Vessels.

[graceful grail]

Yes, a vessels definition is something that’s made to hold something else.

[floral quiver]

It's not like the eggs hatched and the kids were born void. Vessels arent Tenno.

[sick tinsel]

[floral quiver]

Thus they are constructs.

Not natural beings

[sick tinsel]

nah

[graceful grail]

How they are formed is definitely influenced in someway by PK.

[floral quiver]

Yes. Intentionally so

[sick tinsel]

thier shells are still natural

its only thier insides

[graceful grail]

We know that a shell can be greatly altered by known means.

For example, PV.

Also, herras body was altered so that she be able to have kids.

[floral quiver]

Yes.

Which is my point.

Or at least part of my point.

[sick tinsel]

i think that herrah looked closer to widow than other weavers but thats just a theory

[foggy fractal]

🤔 a silksong theory...

[floral quiver]

The vessels arent naturally born children, they're purpose built things designed and created for a very specific purpose that happen to use the Pale King and White Lady's unhatched young as a basic part. They are constructs

[terse warren]

"Herrah's body was altered so that she was able to have kids" my source is that I made it the fuck up?

[foggy fractal]

no no its the other one

revealed in a dream

[terse warren]

I see

[foggy fractal]

wait a second... dreams... radiance... uh oh

[terse warren]

Ruh roh

[sick tinsel]

they arent robots...

being made for a purpose yeah

but they arent kingsmolds

[terse warren]

Comparing the Vessels who have emotions to constructs such as Wingsmoulds or Kingsmoulds is kinda silly

[sick tinsel]

they are children of pale king infested with void

[sick tinsel]

well gadget is saying vessels are constructs and im saying that

[floral quiver]

I mean, this isnt the worst theory. Like there's no overt evidence but Herrah being altered so that she could get pregnant thanks to the Pale King is a perfectly reasonable explanation considering the other is "the Pale King was just so divinely virile that he could impregnate a creature who's major physiological quirk is an extreme difficulty concieving."

[terse warren]

Others Weavers have also birthed though

[floral quiver]

Yes, and it's said to be an extremely painful one in a million thing.

[terse warren]

Plus Team Cherry un-fattened Herrah anyways

She looks way more like a normal Weaver in Red Memory

[foggy stratus]

Painful?

[terse warren]

The only difference is the horns but that could be caused by having had her mask removed

[sick tinsel]

red widow

[foggy fractal]

Hey wdym by "normal" Weaver hm?

cancelled.

[sick tinsel]

or maybe herrah is just built diff

[floral quiver]

I was born within this space. To leave would be my death, an uninspired end, though one I've sometimes wished would come.
I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.

[terse warren]

I dislike the theory of Herrah being a chosen one

[foggy stratus]

Hornet inherited her mask so I imagine its just her actual head.

[terse warren]

Well no like

She had to take off the Weaver mask to get the dreamer one

[sick tinsel]

if there was a chosen weaver its probably first sinner

[terse warren]

It's also just possible that her genetics carried over her actual face rather than her mask

She's the complete opposite actually

[foggy fractal]

why can't she just wear two masks smh

[floral quiver]

I do find "natural masks" kinda dumb

[sick tinsel]

natural masks are skulls

we dont see any creatures with natural masks other than pale king and his kids

[floral quiver]

And I find that dumb

[sinful nimbus]

PK upscale

[floral quiver]

That's a part of the lore I find silly

[sinful nimbus]

If GMS could mess her reproductive systems up with soul PK can undo it with soul

[sick tinsel]

i mean they arent really masks

[terse warren]

GMS needs upscales not pk

[graceful grail]

No huh

[foggy stratus]

Weaver "masks" seem to be their shells from back when they were Pharlids.

[sick tinsel]

yes

[sinful nimbus]

Why would you upscale GMS instead of a well written character

[sick tinsel]

seems removable

[graceful grail]

If I wasn’t in the middle of work right now, I’d send you 100 pictures of bugs with organic, natural masks

[foggy stratus]

Forcefully removed.

[floral quiver]

Then how can Widow have hers removed and live?

[foggy stratus]

Like a skull.

[terse warren]

To turn GMS into a well written character

[floral quiver]

Skulls cant be removed.

[sick tinsel]

there isnt any other

[floral quiver]

They're skulls

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe true

[floral quiver]

An integral part of creatures who have them

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a skull its more akin to a shell

[foggy stratus]

Pharlid shells have a giant hole in the top. Ain't nothing going on in there.

[graceful grail]

Masks

Masks

[sick tinsel]

uh oh

[graceful grail]

And you know how important masks are? Phantom for their whole fight is shoving one on their face the whole time. Wonder why

[sick tinsel]

probably beause phantom is a fragile creature that cant live without a mask

[gritty void]

insecurities?

[foggy stratus]

She doesn't have it on before her fight.

Its off to the side on the organ.

[sick tinsel]

she isnt actively moving

[foggy stratus]

She's playing the organ. That is movement.

[sick tinsel]

not heavy movements

you can move a glass of water a little bit without the water spilling

[floral quiver]

Very Phantom of the Opera, that

[plain gazelle]

i see it more as her desperately clutching to her preferred identity as a warrior when she fights, she's alright letting it hang out in an unfocused fugue state while she's just eternally playing the organ. but in general the degree to which masks have a metaphorical versus literal effect and in which circumstances is vague

[floral quiver]

Its even a half mask like the theatrical version

Or I guess technically three quarters mask

[gritty void]

i think on one looking at her face at that time is the more imp point

[floral quiver]

Phantom is one of those bosses that people can project whatever they believe thanks to the lack of locked down anything about them.

[plain gazelle]

absolutely

[sick tinsel]

atleast we know phantom sings better than lace

[foggy stratus]

And is a better boss fight.

[sick tinsel]

and voicelines

[floral quiver]

Hey, gotta have something over the favorite.

[foggy stratus]

And in general everything.

[sick tinsel]

fragile but dosent need silk to survive

[graceful grail]

Why didn’t GMS like phantom? I’ve always wondered.

What did Phantom do?

[terse warren]

It's possible Phantom decided to side with the Weavers

[sick tinsel]

high chance

[floral quiver]

I do find it funny that Silk does just play favorites. Some rando kills the unwanted child, ain't nothing done even when we know she could. The favorite's about to die and she sacrifices herself so Lace can live.

Phantom deserves a better mom.

[sick tinsel]

i dont know if harpoon is exclusive to weavers but phantom is clearly capable of it

[terse warren]

While it is true that Team Cherry did a very job at characterizing GMS, I don't think she'd just abandon a child like that

[terse warren]

I mean yeah she didn't do anything cause she cast her away

[floral quiver]

What's exclusive is the silkrune magic.

[sick tinsel]

alright

[terse warren]

Mfw I throw away the trash and some random on the street takes it to the dump themselves

Like, they just did me a favor

[floral quiver]

Basically all of Hornet's Silk Skills are backed up by Weaver runic magic

[foggy stratus]

Huh, I just looked at Phantom's Needolin dialoge and apparently she, and likely inturn GMS and Lace, have shells. Weird.

[floral quiver]

Yeah, what is a shell is kinda vague

[foggy stratus]

But cross stich and Pale Nails.

[graceful grail]

I think GMS was putting all her cards on the daughter she thought would not betray her. Basically everyone else did.

[sick tinsel]

phantom has all rights to hate both lace and GMS

[graceful grail]

Do we know if Phantom was strung before gms was put to sleep?

[floral quiver]

Well yeah. Both of those are learned from creatures not versed in Weaver runic magic. In fact Weaver runes are some of the things kept secret from Silk

[terse warren]

Phantom and Lace were assumedly made at the same time, imo Phantom must've done something to anger GMS

[graceful grail]

To me, it looked like Phantom was looking out for lace telling her that stuff.

[terse warren]

Okay so I'm pretty sure both silk children were made like, before the being put to sleep?

Like right after the betrayal

[floral quiver]

?

[terse warren]

As she was being put to sleep she made em

[sick tinsel]

i mean lace dosent seem to care about phantom at all, but we cant just say

[terse warren]

The timeline is very complicated but we know for a fact they were made before the Haunting

[floral quiver]

We got locked down lore for this?

[plain gazelle]

there's basically no indication for the timeframe of when either lace or phantom were made other than them not being present in events before the haunting

[floral quiver]

Gotcha

[terse warren]

Well Phantom was "put in charge" of conducting waste through the Organ, and

1. I highly doubt Phantom would listen to what the Chorus had to say

2. It can't be after the Haunting cause who the fuck would've put her in charge then

I think there's a couple other things but it's 1 AM I don't remember em

[floral quiver]

Cause like, if I was a Weaver and my hated goddess who i made a railgun to try and kill spawned, I'd kill them without hesitation

[floral quiver]

Silk. Silk would

Because even asleep silk is capricious and mean

[terse warren]

Why would GMS give a shit about moving the waste away from the Citadel

[graceful grail]

Imo. GMS had no reason to make any other children until the Weaver‘s betrayed her. That would spark want for children that wouldn’t betray her.

Which is why she would make phantom. But when Phantom grew up anf wasn’t what GMS exactly wanted and she made the perfect daughter who would always stay young and be dependent on her. And this dependence is the thing that lace hates most.

[sick tinsel]

def

and she was probably inslaved just like the pilgrims

[plain gazelle]

GMS probably has every intention to continue to use the citadel system, she just doesn't want people to sing the sleepy song. all the haunted people are still doing their jobs after all

[terse warren]

I think they were just made at the same time, but one rebelled while the other didn't

[floral quiver]

She doesnt. It's an insulting punishment that puts Phantom as far away from her mother and sister as its possible to be while still being "in the Citadel"

[terse warren]

Just different personalities

[terse warren]

Meh

[terse warren]

That's because until GMS controls them to attack they revert to their instincts, which is directly stated

[floral quiver]

She's very much using it throughout the game. Who do you think ordered Weaverkin hunted down?

[terse warren]

Anyways I'm going to sleep, don't reply ping cause I won't see

[floral quiver]

The Citadel bugs are dead, friend. That's why the entire place is silent until Silk activates it when Hornet arrives.

Like, they're not sleeping

[plain gazelle]

plus unravelled silk heart dialogue is easy to read as GMS being pro-citadel structure

[floral quiver]

Those bugs that get up from the ground and attack when Hornet gets nearby

[terse warren]

It's literally stated that the husks revert to their instincts, also again stop pinging me I'm trying to sleep

[plain gazelle]

"raise them up to devote eternal"

[sick tinsel]

not everyone

a majority yes

the cogwork heart and some pilgrims still run the citadel

[floral quiver]

The Citadel structure is a tool. A very effective tool. Why would She not want it?

[plain gazelle]

yeah

[sick tinsel]

and also would be a free place to operate in

[plain gazelle]

personally i'm even of the take that GMS actively ok'd or even originated the idea of the citadel, the weavers just secretly co-opted it during construction to put her to sleep

[floral quiver]

Me too!

[plain gazelle]

it fits well with the description of it as a "web" that it was basically a trap they sprung

[floral quiver]

"Oh Great And Glorious Mother, look upon our works! We have built it in your worship, 'tis it not worthy of Your name? Stout and strong, as only you truly are! And listen, Goodly Mother, for we have made a song for you, that you may be sumptuously entertained as you take your rest!"

[plain gazelle]

"zzz"

[sick tinsel]

i think it was built after gms was trapped ngl

[sick tinsel]

wheres this dialogue

[floral quiver]

Nowhere.

I made it up a few days ago to show why my "Weavers built the Citadel 'for' Silk while she was awake and tricked her into being put to sleep" interpretation was cool and makes the Weavers cunning and smart and tricksy

[sick tinsel]

this actually may be canon

[floral quiver]

Because how and when the Citadel was built is a mystery thst can be interpreted multiple ways.

Oh?

[dire lynx]

no?

[floral quiver]

It's my interpretation of the lore so if you have something substantial I'd like to here it

[sick tinsel]

after all didnt grandmother silk create the weavers to worship her

[floral quiver]

Yes.

But there's no info on the very early Citadel

[sick tinsel]

it woul make sense they would built civilization wont it ?

[floral quiver]

Well yes

But there's nothing locking that interpretation down

Because there's not a lot locking any of the myriad lore tidbits of the Citadel down

[sick tinsel]

after all the citadel is also the city of song

[floral quiver]

It's why we get into regular fights over Citadel lore

[lone folio]

Yeah good thing act 3 destroys the place and adds depressed Trobbio

[sick tinsel]

oh

[blissful harbor]

? mask maker tells us pretty directly the weavers built it

[lone folio]

Fixes the entire situation

[sick tinsel]

loam is dead :(

[lone folio]

One less issue to worry about

[floral quiver]

Yes? But when and how is never stated

[sick tinsel]

[floral quiver]

The Weavers designed the Citadel for a purpose, but thats all The Mask Maker's says

He doesnt give dates or if it was before or after Silk slept

He just says "The Weavers built the Citadel as a trap"

[blissful harbor]

he says they built it to put her to sleep, so it had to have been before

[sick tinsel]

i think as you said, the citadel couldve been built before the weavers rebelled, since mother silk wanted to rule, she would have to build civilization, which probably got them to fight the order of kerak

[blissful harbor]

A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[floral quiver]

Note the Weavers rebelled in secret

They didnt fight Silk directly

The Citadel could have been built during the rebellion

[sick tinsel]

but we DONT know when they rebelled exactly

and the shouldve been weavers that stayed loyal to mother silk

[floral quiver]

No we dont.

[floral quiver]

Why?

[dire lynx]

widow

[floral quiver]

To add character?

To make things more lore complex?

[sick tinsel]

if you were told your a higher being your whole life, would you accept it when someone ranomly comes and say your just an elevated creature

[blissful harbor]

well some weavers believed silk
that they were divine

[blissful harbor]

exactly

it’s why first sinner was imprisoned

[floral quiver]

We dont know this and the only one who is actively on Silks side is mad

[blissful harbor]

we do know that
first sinner wouldn’t be imprisoned for apostasy if not

[floral quiver]

Note that First Sinner's grave was seemingly moved into that cell from somewhere else

[sick tinsel]

yea

[blissful harbor]

what makes you think that

[sick tinsel]

and tbh, it seems that even weavers that rebelled refused the fact that they are just elevated creatures

thats why they probably kept first sinner imprisonned

[blissful harbor]

they imprisoned her because she was screaming treason and sacrilege

[floral quiver]

The big old screws put in the sides of her grave, shaped to be hauled by chains.

Noticed them as I was looking at the wiki gallery

See on the sides there?

[blissful harbor]

we have no clue what those are
i see them but that’s a huge assumption

what she died and they decided to cage her dead body just because??

[sick tinsel]

unlikely

am against the idea that FS died and were fighting a memory

[floral quiver]

It's said to be a memory when you use certain menues

[blissful harbor]

well she is dead

[sick tinsel]

certain menues ?

[dire lynx]

she is absolutely dead, you can see her petrified corpse right there

[floral quiver]

And she goes from alive to a long dead corpse

[blissful harbor]

but she either was killed in the cage or died there

[floral quiver]

Proof?

[sick tinsel]

could be the same case with the watcher at the edge

he also seems dea

[blissful harbor]

she was imprisoned
you don’t imprison a corpse bro

it’s literal common sense

it’s not a burial it’s a cage with seals on it

[limpid summit]

Her corpse was moved though

[dire lynx]

watcher isnt petrified, but in stasis, that is also a unique quirk of karaka biology, so not applicable to weavers

[limpid summit]

It’s just her she isn’t in a spire

[floral quiver]

Oh you very much do when they enacted apostasy.

You prove your dominance over their beliefs and insult them

[sick tinsel]

same case with judges in blasted steps

[floral quiver]

By metaphorically imprisoning them

Much like courts in the middle ages to early modern period would try dead bodies

Cause those bodies did such heinous acts that letting them just die wasnt good enough

[dire lynx]

judges are just standing at attention, you can see that their bodies are not in fact turned to stone

[floral quiver]

Like, no, we don't do such silly things now, but we did in the past

[floral quiver]

One judge died at their post.

[sick tinsel]

still they are getting petrified

[floral quiver]

No.

Theyre just not moving.

[dire lynx]

no? they are just standing still

[sick tinsel]

could be the same case with fs

it may sound wierd but

[dire lynx]

no, we can see first sinner is stone

[sick tinsel]

what woul u do when ur imprisoned for a long period except standing still

[floral quiver]

Buddy. We see her long dead corpse just like all the other long dead weaver corpses

[dire lynx]

the body is still the same just a little sandy

vs one being stone instead of chiton and flesh

[floral quiver]

Considering she is in what remains of a Weaver burial Spire's body storage area?

Be dead.

[sick tinsel]

idk atp

[floral quiver]

What?

[dire lynx]

the only one who is actually dead of the judges is very visually distinct compared to both resting and active judges

[floral quiver]

Like, that stone surrounding her corpse didn't just sprout from the ground

[sick tinsel]

stuff can get petrified by time

[floral quiver]

Her corpse was taken from her spire and dragged into that cell

[sick tinsel]

we dont know for how much the fs was imprisoned

[sick tinsel]

if thats the case where could her sprire possibly be

[floral quiver]

Not long enough for her corpse to gain what looks like a Weaver burial Spires body receptical surrounding it.

That takes a considerable amount of time to build up.

[sick tinsel]

yea i give up on my claim

[limpid summit]

Could Fayforn beat a Weaver outside of Mount Fay

[floral quiver]

Hmm.

[lone folio]

I would say yeah

[dire lynx]

yes

[floral quiver]

I would say probably. It depends on if what kills is pure physical effort or some metaphysical magic godling stuff

[lone folio]

She is called "fell" in the context of being aggressive so clearly there's some kind of danger to her, not to mention shed massive and flies very fast and she is really wise

[sick tinsel]

yea

[dire lynx]

being buddy-buddy with mr. mushroom is also rather alarming

[lone folio]

That's because she's just that smart

[floral quiver]

Oh certainly. I could just see a Weaver being able to fight her off.

Though the question is "could she kill one at all", I guess,which well of course, she's a giant bird bug godling thing

[sick tinsel]

something interesting how does hornet understand mr mushroom

[dire lynx]

she says early on that she knows many languages, and since the mushrooms are allies to hallownest, im not surprised

[floral quiver]

Huh, does she?

Neat

[sick tinsel]

common W hornet

[floral quiver]

Might have missed that dialogue

[dire lynx]

"Rkraha. Uohk kha!
Hornet: My apologies, sir. Though I can grasp the language of many bugs, your words are unfamiliar even to me.
Kha... kha mauak. Noku... gri?
Hornet: These items you have collected. These are the wares of a warrior. Do you wish to trade?
Noku... noku!"

[limpid summit]

PK and WL probably learned their language for the treaty and stuff

[floral quiver]

Aaah

[lone folio]

Fight her off with difficulty certainly, and there is no way for a weaver to run away. She's fast as fuck

[dire lynx]

Mottled scarr and hornet

[sick tinsel]

hornet lived in hallownest not pharloom

[dire lynx]

im aware

[floral quiver]

Right. I forgot that bit. Only just got their stuff for the first time in my current playthrough

[dire lynx]

i missed him for my entire first playthrough until act 3 where he was already dead 😭

so i searched the dialogue up to make sure i didnt miss any lore

[floral quiver]

The wiki having all the dialogue is honestly the best part of it.

[dire lynx]

on

god

[lone folio]

Mottled skarr is my favorite npc in the game

He's the goat

[floral quiver]

It's way easier to keep track of random dialogue when you can look it up on character pages

[lone folio]

My first playthrough wouldn't have been the same without him

[dire lynx]

carried by fractured mask 🥀

[lone folio]

I did use it alot

I bought it from him and then after using it for that long I came back to see what else awesome he had to offer

[swift needle]

[floral quiver]

I mostly don't use tools. I honestly forget I have them most of the time

[lone folio]

Let's just say I was devestated and declared war on the citadel

[floral quiver]

I fight with needle alone like a true warrior! :joking:

[swift needle]

“I must never use a game mechanic because I’m just sooo cooollll”

Oh

Mb I didn’t see the joking

[lone folio]

Ngl I have that with spells in HK

[floral quiver]

You're cool. 😆

[swift needle]

[lone folio]

In most fights I never use them, exceptions being desolate dive for invincibility frames and shriek for flukemarm because she sucks

[dire lynx]

spam ddark and scream

[floral quiver]

See, if I know I can win with the needle what's the point of tools?

The combat system and enemy/boss design are solid enough that using tools isnt a necessity

[dire lynx]

but how can you be hornet without spamming traps across the battlefield? after i got it the sting shard never left me

[floral quiver]

By being hornet with constant aerial dominance. Enemies cant hurt me if I'm striking from above until a whole room is dead!

[dire lynx]

hornet-knight impersonation!!

[floral quiver]

Hunter 4 lyfe

[floral quiver]

There's a bit of a different feeling between the two, I think. Enemies feel like they're designed to be vulnerable to the aerial stab.

Like, the Craws are particularly so, with at least one maneuver per enemy that leaves them open for an aerial downstab.

[foggy stratus]

Then there's the fuck ass Deep Docks workers.

[floral quiver]

And once you get one good stab, you can just do it again off the bounce

[floral quiver]

Mhm. There are a few enemies intentionally made to mitigate Hornet's normally dominating aerial advantage and the Deep workers are some of them

[grave stream]

If hornet didn't want to be the role of protector to a dying kingdom again why didn't she just dip when she got to blasted steps or was she just lying about the protector thing

[dire lynx]

she literally has dialogue on why :/

[grave stream]

I trust you guys more than google

Why?

I can't play the game rn

[dire lynx]

Hornet: These sands mark the edge of Pharloom's territory. I was brought to this land through the caverns beyond.
Hornet: Something at this kingdom's height still hungers for me. Were I to flee now, I would again be pursued.
Hornet: Until I find the source of that hunger, and slay it, I will not be free.

[grave stream]

Thank you

[dire lynx]

act 3:

Hornet: If I chose to head beyond, I would abandon Pharloom to a collapse of my making.
Hornet: While I live, and still possess the strength to act, I will not allow that end to come to pass.

[grave stream]

Also why is it lost garmond if I found him

He's right there

[floral quiver]

Hornet wants to be a heroic knight and to protect and save people because she enjoys helping people. She spends the game in heavy denial of this trait and want.

[dire lynx]

denial*

[floral quiver]

Thanks

[limpid summit]

I have already stood sentinel for one dying land. That role... I will never play again.

This dialogue?

You’re right she initially was a bit of an idgafer but here she means she won’t play that role in the sense that she actively wants to save the kingdom

[floral quiver]

But yeah, Hornet is a classic noble hero who likes heroing, so she stays because people need help and she likes helping. Getting her to admit this is like pulling teeth.

She has a lot of "reasonable but obviously bullshit if you follow her character arc" excuses to not leave Pharloom and for why she's helping people for barely any personal gain.

[swift needle]

Because it’s what Himmel the hero would’ve done

[floral quiver]

Her constant excuses amuse me.

"No, I'm totally a black hearted mercenary only in it for my own self interes- Wait, the town needs money to rebuild? Here you go! 😄 Now, as I was saying, I'm only in it for what you can do for me."

Spends the next few hours doing odd jobs and helping people while buying nice comfy furniture for her cute bellhouse that's totally temporary.

[modest trail]

quick question, how does silk work in silksong? is it created by hurting others or is just something you can pick up? also can grandmommy silk control all silk? because you can use clawline and silk skills in her fight

[foggy stratus]

Silk is Soul that's somehow woven in the shell of Hornet. Weavers can also do this. When Hornet strikes an enemy she harvests their soul, like how TK harvests soul in Hollow Knight, and turns it into Silk in her shell. Yes, GMS can control alsmot all Silk but seemingly not Silk she didnt directly create.

[modest trail]

oh okay

and were all weavers formerly other things before becoming weavers?

[floral quiver]

She also pulls silk dregs from her enemies.

[floral quiver]

Yes

Which is their big issue

[modest trail]

one more q

are all weavers female? the hunter looks like a weaver. Is GMS sexist?

[floral quiver]

Seemingly

All the Weavers known are female

The Hunter is not a Weaver

[foggy stratus]

Hunter isn't a Weaver. Yes all Weavers are women. Maybe GMS is sexist.

She seemingly has a thing for having daughters at least.

[modest trail]

she grew up playing with barbies, thats where her parenting comes from

[floral quiver]

Extensions of herself. Like every abusive mother with daughters ever

(Okay not every one, but a large enough number to be a stereotype)

[modest trail]

Its fucked up that Hornets aunts try to kill her constantly

and her grandma goes into void hell

[floral quiver]

It keeps her sharp. :joking:

I could easily see "regularly try to kill your child cause if they can't survive you how can they survive outside the den?" as a Weaver parenting move.

[modest trail]

new headcannon: Aunts beat the shit out of hornet when she was young, now shes older, and they suddenly want to be friends

[merry vault]

Silksong lore is trash ong (April fools guys)

[slate nymph]

i mean she has no second thoughts taking lumbles last rosaries and dice and telling him "thats no luck im just better than you"

[floral quiver]

Well see that's gambling, totally different. 🙂

(Hornet's penchant for gambling is fun)

[slate nymph]

she tells him she won with skill, not luck

[floral quiver]

Lumbles totally knew what he signed up for.

[slate nymph]

but i do think youre right, its hilarious when she tells mooshka she'll only play to hone her skills when she clearly enjoys the fleas company

[floral quiver]

Game Of Skill, as they say. 🙂

[austere crest]

in hk and sk
we know there are 3 mind controlling things
the infection
the void
the haunting
which of these are the strongest?

i'm akin to say the infection because hallownest is cannonically stronger than pharloom
but void might be the strongest because lost lace

the haunting is without a doubt the weakest

[pliant meadow]

The void doesn't really count, since it only works how it does in silksong because of the haunting (the threads that possess the bugs are drowned in void)

[pliant meadow]

Also Hallownest is not canonically stronger than Pharloom 🥀

[dire lynx]

i mean, it is tho

[pliant meadow]

How

[dire lynx]

unn, pale king, white lady

[pliant meadow]

Unn doesn't really work for Hallownest :/

[dire lynx]

wait qwhoops

read their statement wrong

[pliant meadow]

lol

[dire lynx]

wai

no i read it right

[pliant meadow]

Oh ok

[dire lynx]

also even without unn, hallownest still has the hollow knight and hornet

and unn is still allied with hallownest, an opponent like the citadel would pose a threat to everyone neighbouring hallownest and im certain it wouldnt take much to convince those neighbours that its worth allying to take down the oppressive and evil threat that is the citadel

[pliant meadow]

4 choruses :D

[fading shard]

you're joking right

[pliant meadow]

:P

[fading shard]

do I need to give a bunch of reasons why hallownest beats the christ out of pharloom?

[pliant meadow]

Ok

I'm not gonna make u lol

[fading shard]

Because if we're talking prime pharloom and hallownest then that means no gms, no lace, no phantom, in the cost of no vessels and hornet

since the infection retroactively are the reasons why the vessels and hornet exist

and gms is a enemy of pharloom and the citadel

[fading shard]

Hallownests defences are comprised of the various sentries, kingsmoulds, heroes of hallownests, five great knights and nail masters where as pharlooms "citadel"
has the sentinels choir and four choruses

you might think that the four choruses would easily destroy hallownest but as shown with a pinstress being capable of taking down one of them they are not as impressive as they seem to be

with their necks being their weakspots and mind you hallownest has a LOT of aerial enemies and the five great knights are FAR stronger then the pinstresses

[pliant meadow]

The sentinels, cogwork soldiers, 4 choruses, pintresses, the entire choir, an industrialised kingdom...

[fading shard]

you either have sentinels or pinstresses

you can't have both

[pliant meadow]

Lmao why not

[fading shard]

the pintresses were betrayed by the citadel

and had them replaced by the sentinels that's why cheesed

[pliant meadow]

And 4 of the five great knights died

[fading shard]

the sentinels were made to copy the pinstresses moves

[fading shard]

one died facing dozens of infected impowered mantises, the other died in his sleep, and the last one might not even be dead but in some weird state

[fading shard]

that happened also after the infection

and if you want to go by that logic then the order of the sentinels are gone

and so are most of the atuomatons

and automation of the kingdom is dead so don't go with that logic

[pliant meadow]

Oh you wanna do that? Hornet beats tk

[fading shard]

Hornets literally the daughter of hallownest

Wdym

[pliant meadow]

If we're doing them as they are in game Hornet is on team Pharloom

[fading shard]

No she's not lmao

[pliant meadow]

She is tho :P

[fading shard]

she states she shall forever be the daughter of hallownest

she literally hates the citadel and gms wdym T_T

that's like saying that the soul sanctum would be on team hallownest when they actively hate the pale king

that makes no sense

[fading shard]

She's not even a fan of pharloom she multiple times states how sickening the citadel is

[pliant meadow]

Ok maybe not as they are in game... Hallownest wins that bc both of the protagonists are from there

[fading shard]

and saying that hornet beats the knight is laughable when she can't even absorb a higher being

[pliant meadow]

She does tho

[fading shard]

when she does so, she literally get's overwhelmed by their power

[fading shard]

she literally get's overwhelmed by the energy of that said WEAKENED higher being

and loses herself

and we know that's the case as she was worried that would happen when absorbing eva

[pliant meadow]

The knight doesn't absorb a higher being

Sure, hornet can't, but neither can tk

[fading shard]

The knight can kill a higher being

and the second strongest one we've seen

[pliant meadow]

With the help of their siblings

The hollow knight has to open up the radiance

[fading shard]

with humble respect that's literally just a lie

them using the void as aid is a literal power they obtained

[pliant meadow]

???

[fading shard]

after gaining void heart

they unified the void to their whim

literally stated by the void heart entry

they even get called the lord of shades by the ancient corpse

[pliant meadow]

Aren't we doing a 1v1?

[fading shard]

and are the strongest character in the hollow knight universe

[pliant meadow]

Lord of shades has literally 1 feat

[fading shard]

they have the entire void unified under their whim wdym T_T

THe void is literally stated by hornet to be everywhere in the universe

in the deepest parts of it

[pliant meadow]

Obviously not all of it, since the void tendrils in SOTV almost kill hornet

[fading shard]

and the knight literally becomes the shade lord

[pliant meadow]

TK has to stop them

[fading shard]

feel as though that just downgrades hornets abilities don't they?

[pliant meadow]

I thought we were talking about the shade lord?

[twin dragon]

Tk literally shits on the verse

[fading shard]

we literally see it calling upon void tendrals in dream no more

[pliant meadow]

Nah I'm ragebaiting too much (even tho I do actually believe this) I gtg 😭

[fading shard]

also again pharloom vs hallownest would mean no hornet, knight, gms, lace or phantom

[twin dragon]

Js the infantry alone

[fading shard]

well no the Pale king, white lady and I guess the conductors would be part of it, it's just that the characters I mention could only be part of such a debate if the kingdoms already fell to ruin

[kindred ingot]

What's the topic?

[dire lynx]

hallownest vs pharloom (easy hallownest sweep)

[kindred ingot]

Like, in their peak or rn?

[dire lynx]

obviously peak

[kindred ingot]

Probably Pharloom

[dire lynx]

current hallownest has the god of gods, hardly a fair matchup

[kindred ingot]

Hallownest didn't have any real physical enemies, so they wouldn't have invested on military

[kindred ingot]

Shade Lord is in the Abyss, which is not in any kingdom

[candid linden]

I think an absolute gms could pose a pretty good challenge

[kindred ingot]

Pharloom had lots of enemies tho, and we see in game that they had a really big army, which could probably destroy Hallownest

[dire lynx]

prime hallownest has the hollow knight, hornet, the 5 great knights, the sentry force, many other knights (for example Xero and Galien), the pale king, white lady, the crystal peak golems, kingsmoulds, as well as all their allies such as the shrooms, mantises and mosskin

half of pharloom would also be willing to join hallownests cause against the citadel

[sick tinsel]

hallownest isnt focused on expanding like pharloom is

[kindred ingot]

The Hollow Knight is one bug
Hornet was an infant back then
The 5 Great Knights would probably be somewhat of a problem
Idk what the sentry force is
The Crystal Peak golems probably didn't fight
Kingsmoulds were Pale King's personal defense and not used for wars
Pale King and White Lady don't fight
Mantises are not Hallownest's allies, they just have a deal
Shrooms are shrooms
The Mosskin is also not allied to Hallownest, they just have a deal

[sick tinsel]

pale king DID fight actually

[kindred ingot]

Pharloom has: the Sentinels, the Choruses, and an actual army

[kindred ingot]

Wait fr?

When is that stated?

[sick tinsel]

white defender fight

he was clearly standing with his five knights

[silver prawn]

There was a video regarding this topic.
Hallownest wins in both prime and ruined state

[kindred ingot]

I think that's just like symbolic
The Knights stood for Pale King

[fading shard]

are we being serious?

[kindred ingot]

He didn't actually fight

[kindred ingot]

Yes

[fading shard]

okay all of y'all giv me a good few minutes alright

[sick tinsel]

not really

pale king did clearly fight in the battle of blackwyrm

[kindred ingot]

Hallownest's biggest problem was Deepnest, as in, a bunch of beasts

[dire lynx]

what does that have to do with what i said?

[kindred ingot]

Pharloom had to fight the Karak Army

[silver prawn]

The PK never tried to subjugate Deepnest tho?

[sick tinsel]

idk i am just saying

[kindred ingot]

You mean the bunch of beasts?

[dire lynx]

hornet is an adult at this time, we see her wearing the gown of the pale court

[fading shard]

can you guys please give me a minute T_T

[silver prawn]

Unless you would consider the trams

[silver prawn]

Intelligent beasts