sk-lore

[midnight reef]

. ;3

"learn" is a strong word, Unity is pretty easy to understand

Just takes a bunch of time to setup Silksong working in it

"working"

[random aspen]

sounds easy

also would make it easier for you to add stuff later

guys idk

just repurpose the area instead of scrapping it entirely and replacing it with a single lame gauntlet tower

old khann arena looked way better

[dire lynx]

draw all the assets and then come back to us and show the results, im sure it will be awesome!

[random aspen]

ari gibson drawing 5 billion assets just for it to all get scrapped or blurred

[random aspen]

you know as little as i do

and either way they had all the time in the world none of this matters

[midnight reef]

they

they did

[random aspen]

they could take 1 month and a day to do that and nothing would change

[midnight reef]

they litterally did

if you didnt read it, the Coral Gorge got repurposed

...its called the Blasted Steps and Sands of Karak

[random aspen]

to be sands of karak and blasted steps

no siht

nooo hit bro

i know

[midnight reef]

they didnt want to do it twice, so they didnt.

[random aspen]

im saying they couldve used the old area

in khanns memory

the old old area

[midnight reef]

that they already repurposed once into the Blasted Steps and Sands of Karak

Lost Verdania works because Verdania got cut

Thats why its the only "full" memory area

[random aspen]

so they dont want us to see sands of karak in its prime

[midnight reef]

Yes

[random aspen]

which is why its stupid

and why a lot of people not just me

didnt like that it got scrapped

they have like 20 coral gorge enemies in the gauntlet

and still chose to make it a single tower instead of the whole area

[marble oasis]

i would be fine with a reskin

[midnight reef]

and Team Cherry wasnt

its just that simple

[random aspen]

and thats why people are disappointed 😭

its just that simple

imagien climbing up the coral gorge to finally meet khann at the tower

[midnight reef]

yes

hence why instead of imagining it Im doing something, rather than hoping that Team Cherry does it instead

(Because I have a feeling they wont)

[random aspen]

at least we'll get sharpe

[river lily]

Mangas(men)writing women:waaa waaah waaah I'm usseles and have to wait for the men to rescue me
TC(men) writing women:I will not stand a sentinel of a dying land no longer.I will always remain a daughter of hallownest

[spark valve]

trash vs garbage

[river lily]

I'm crine

[midnight reef]

oh yeah, another funny thing I found when looking in the files of Silksong

Hornet_Inv_crest_icon_small__0002_hunter_01

Hornet_Inv_crest_icon_small__0003_hunter_02

Noteable, those both are the Hunters Crest, an early itteration of it

But, Hornet_Inv_crest_icon_small__0001_hunter_00 is missing

...but we have the first stages full res version.

The Wyrm Crest sprite leftover? Was Evo 0 of the Hunters Crest originally

[midnight reef]

You can see it in Evo 1

Which makes me think that part of Hornets arc in the earlier versions of the game was going to be her more explictly moving beyond the role of the gaurdian of Hallownests Corpse

[floral quiver]

That would've been neat!

[midnight reef]

Im going to poke KAdala if they want to do the sprites for it, would be cool

[foggy fractal]

son... im crine 😭 😭

[foggy fractal]

cousin 😭 😭

[river lily]

Aunt😭😭

I'm crine

[marble oasis]

kin 😭

[foggy fractal]

vessel 😭

[covert night]

pilgrim 😭😭😭

[vivid kernel]

companion 😭

[limpid summit]

worm 😭😭

[gritty raft]

Alright Skonk lorekeepers I have a question for you

Me and my friend are discussing the Moss Druid, specifically the stew.

What causes the vision, the Stew itself of the fumes caused after the stirring?

[dire lynx]

its the toxins in the berries, so probably both

[gritty raft]

That makes sense

[austere crest]

hornet is a side character in sk

[heavy gyro]

yeah the real main character is silksong

[whole holly]

Its seeds are toxic to most creatures. not whole berries

[whole holly]

no it's Sherma

[obsidian granite]

What does the true ending of silksong mean for the canon ending of hk? It has to be EtV right?

[swift needle]

Good morning

[whole holly]

good morning

[austere crest]

i was going for
the knight

[austere crest]

goodmorning

[whole holly]

i made third volume of lost memory theory yes!

it's not really a theory but rather material analysis aimed at connecting the dots that are spread throughout both games

[swift needle]

Is there a google doc of this I really wanna see

[whole holly]

i made it in apple notes, so we got two choices 1.textwall 2.google docs(will take some time to share)

[swift needle]

Text wall🥺

[whole holly]

alright

[whole holly]

it's part three and textwall might be worse experience than three google docs

[swift needle]

It’s ALR

alr*

[whole holly]

this is first volume https://docs.google.com/document/d/16L48JpgjvIoMeCT58fB0HAB4-L9JthT2mOB-dPQsnow/edit?usp=sharing

it is generally about hearts and memories

this is second volume https://docs.google.com/document/d/14_zdtxC4sjIhQ9fUa1eh3V5bqD0wyqWOrcZqr5ptKK4/edit?usp=sharing

this is the third: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LgKKOYtlpveJ3kYS6pIMpHb0jk_FDnjKY6HCd9Rx0PA/edit?usp=sharing

i got bolder with third one honestly, first one is most substantiated and borderline confirmed in my opinion

[robust wagon]

Either that or dream no more

[swift needle]

I find it interesting how both the god seekers tuning mechanism and Rayford tuning thingy have a similar description

[brittle robin]

It could also if you go on the etv route be the df ending

[swift needle]

Also I’m what if what if

The white lady

Was a root from the beginning

Like grey root

And doesn’t wanna reveal that side of her to the godseekers

She wants her identity to be a pale being

Maybe

[whole holly]

it is likely intentional, they are meant to tune to beings with power

[swift needle]

Ya

[obsidian granite]

How would DnM work?

[whole holly]

you gave me great idea, thanks, i should write about Forgotten Memory, generally more too

[whole holly]

memories do serve same purpose as dreams and are likely connected to essence as well, but Coldshard seems to act opposite of crystals and hinder access to it?

[twin dragon]

Memories vanish yeah

They can do that

Hearts probably contain the memories of their rulers

And memories seem to phase into reality through specific means

Physical bodies can exist within them as shown by the white palace i think

Id have to look at it more

[twin dragon]

Left ambiguous on purpose

Dnm fits perfectly though

[obsidian granite]

How does DnM fit when we see VgF?

[stark ocean]

we see the knights dnm form too

the flashing between the forms is team cherry telling us that both hk endings can lead to silksong ending

[whole holly]

what do you think about rhythmic memory and frozen memory analysis, though?

[twin dragon]

Narratively its much better and tks form cant just flash between one to the other in miliseconds

[twin dragon]

Is this about that one blue tool?

[whole holly]

have you read the the google docs of them?

it's not just that

[sour sleet]

were the guys bringing hornet to shellwood at the start of the game? they were going right

[twin dragon]

Cant do it rn, asking for the basis

[twin dragon]

To the citadel, they fell off the bridge between shellwood and blasted steps

[whole holly]

okay, read it later if you can i guess basis is coldshard and much more than that such as needolin interactions

[trim flame]

Is the unravelled conductor mizello or a bunch of bodies together

[twin dragon]

the conductor cloak thingy has to be his

and he's probably in the dregs somewhere

[trim flame]

What happened to mizello? And if he is in there shouldn't the unravelled be larger

[twin dragon]

the unravelled is already quite a bit larger than conductors are supposed to be i think

and mizello likely died in the operation judging by the fact that his implied cloak is down there

[trim flame]

Also his helmet

[twin dragon]

well yeah thats what im calling cloak

[trim flame]

But what happened there

[twin dragon]

operation failed most likely

[trim flame]

I know they injected silk to make the workers immortal and the lumaflies are a fragment of their soul

[twin dragon]

Well obv not everyone survived or was successful

there are lots of dregs

and the cremators are a thing yk

[trim flame]

Where is the room with the bodies

[twin dragon]

the unravelled's arena

[trim flame]

O

[sour sleet]

if u go there in game, steps are leftward and shellwood was the direction of movement i think

[twin dragon]

Yeah this could be an inconsistency

we see them cross the bridge in shellwod's direction like ???

wyd

[heavy gyro]

They were going to an elevator

[twin dragon]

which one

[blissful harbor]

theres a bell station in shellwood isn’t there?

they were probably headed for thst

[twin dragon]

the beast was trapped by the time

the only, singular beast

im pretty sure

the other ones didnt answer the calls

[whole holly]

what's the topic?

[blissful harbor]

it’s said somewhere the bell ways used to be filled with golden carriages
the bell beast being used for travel is a new thing (or it used to draw the carriages)

[near jasper]

How were ventricas more unsafe than carriages in shaky bell tunnels with wild animals in them

[foggy stratus]

Have you seen and heard how the Ventricas work? You're getting launched around by air pressure in a tube. It's sounds unsafe when used.

The fact that Hornet doesn't get hurt is a small miracle tbh.

[near jasper]

Same for bellways

[foggy stratus]

There aren't that many things in the Bellways. Hornet only finds Bell Beast and Bell Eater.

[near jasper]

And she just prays she never gets hit by bells and die

[foggy stratus]

She is the child of a higher being so I'd imagine she'd have like +2d8 on praying.

[near jasper]

Good point

That actually explains a lot

[fierce narwhal]

i love this enigmatic stupid thing

[near jasper]

White brocolli of mystery and inquiry

[fierce narwhal]

hate fighting it but i do like the idea of beings touched pale

[whole ridge]

[twin dragon]

actually

yeah

id buy that

do we know why or how the bellways are made

[graceful grail]

Why is green prince a prince? Shouldn’t he be green king?

[whole holly]

i wrote lot about it

[whole holly]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16L48JpgjvIoMeCT58fB0HAB4-L9JthT2mOB-dPQsnow/edit?usp=sharing

it is about palestag's memory being lost

[foggy stratus]

Verdania probably had Prince as their term for leader. Or he preferred being called a Prince over King.

[whole holly]

i should more write things about it, because wdym being touched pale exists and nobody even is sure if it does exist

[foggy stratus]

White Lady got to the Pale Stag

[fierce narwhal]

ooooo

[whole holly]

obviously, only she would do random side quests like that, but but i actually think that it could be related to everbloom somehow

[graceful grail]

Also, I noticed that the Lost Verdena OST has 1 beat missing every other measure. I bet this is supposed to represent the two princes, and one of them missing something.

It switches between 7/4 and 8/4 timeing

[whole holly]

anyone find it weird that Karmelita, Green Prince and Nyleth all have statue and Khann doesn't almost like he doesn't deserve it...

[twin dragon]

maybe because his kingdom went out with him...

[foggy stratus]

He had one, it just eroded away.

[whole holly]

they could have built statue during it's prime or something

[whole holly]

what? where?

[twin dragon]

well current verdania doesnt have a gp statue soo

[foggy stratus]

Sand.

[twin dragon]

nyleth's statue was constructed by the citadel

[whole holly]

yeah but we have knowledge that it existed

[fierce narwhal]

maybe in his mind, his conquest was more of a testament of his rule than a statue could ever be

[foggy stratus]

-# I have no proof for this

[whole holly]

this could be THE reason, rather than just sand eroding it away

[fierce narwhal]

like why would you need a statue if im right here type of deal

[whole holly]

truth nuke

[twin dragon]

sigh

what if we could access old pharloom and gotten this question solved

but oh well

[foggy stratus]

He is the statue. Like no actually he is, just look at his still ass.

[fierce narwhal]

this

[whole holly]

we have no statue of him even in memory, though

[twin dragon]

theres only 5 rooms in his memory

[whole holly]

yeah, his own body petrified

[whole holly]

blame tc, not me

[foggy stratus]

Hes just firsty.

[fierce narwhal]

fuck that #glorytothecitadel #nobodycaresbtyourrivers

[swift needle]

We waited so long for silk song that the coral forge dried up

[fierce narwhal]

the fun that tc was talking about was them taking huge straws and draining all the rivers

coral flavored water

[foggy stratus]

Tastes like chicken.

[whole holly]

Khann has to be lamest old heart imo

[near jasper]

the karak are one of the better tasting sentient pharloom bugs

lugoli should get on that

[fierce narwhal]

that's why there's a craw lake... they put all the water there,..

[foggy stratus]

I think hes the least elaborated on one imo.

[whole holly]

i bet sea of sorrows will introduce his cooler brother

[fierce narwhal]

oh also i wanted to say i love the doc its so well written

[whole holly]

i mean yeah, that is accurate, but all of old hearts suffered from cut content, in a way that can't be brought back

[whole holly]

thanks, it is just first volume out of three

[fierce narwhal]

the elusive nyleth shrine shellwood shortcut

[foggy stratus]

Khann got like major hosed. We get to see all of the Old Hearts' things rather early, but we see nothing of Khann until late act 2. Its sad. He was the last against the Pale Light, he should have gotten more.

[twin dragon]

we dont even know if it was the citadel who dried up karak

[whole holly]

we all see old hearts things rather early? how so?

[twin dragon]

or gms's influence took over karak and that somehow affected the gorge

[fierce narwhal]

tru... that's why i subscribe to the team cherry drank all the rivers dry theory

[twin dragon]

this is how terribly unclear some events are

[whole holly]

yeah, it is just implied to be sand and wind, which assumes that it wasn't present before..? like wdym

[twin dragon]

and yet

[near jasper]

their areas

[twin dragon]

some fuckasses

argue

we dont need old pharloom expansion

[twin dragon]

"Last one against the pale light smt smt yap yap"

[whole holly]

oh yeah, i meant actual statues connected to them khann is only one we can see without entering act 3

[whole holly]

more like last one against sand and time

[fierce narwhal]

i wouldn't say we dont need it but i just dont see it happening in the cards sadly

[twin dragon]

It could be referring to gms herself or the haunting

but we dont know

[twin dragon]

Yeah

but

its necessary

old hearts fascinate me i want more

[whole holly]

i think we will get small things about their lore, down the line

[twin dragon]

i really hope so

[foggy stratus]

We see the Skarrs as like the second-ish enemy type and Hunters March is like the third potential area to enter, we see Nyleth's flower stuff and all of Shellwood and lastly we just straight up see Green Prince in Sinners Road. Khann is exclusively Act 2(i know i worded the first message poorly)

[near jasper]

maybe pk accidentally ate coral gorge while going to hallownest as a wyrm

[fierce narwhal]

im content with what we have now i like the mystery and unknownness abt them it makes it fun to theorize

[fierce narwhal]

my only wish was that the act 3 far fields area was still categorized as hunters match and was more red

[twin dragon]

Yeah but unfortunately we cant get to a conclusion

[whole holly]

i get you now but we can see Green Prince in act 1 or 2 and Khann straight up in Act 2

[fluid vale]

hello lookin for some insight not as familiar w ss lore

for the green prince's lover that agreed to be sacrificed to create the cogwork dancers, who would have been in charge of pharloom at the time/who would've made him agree to it? did the weavers or grandmother silk have a part in it or would it have just been choir and members of the citadel?

[floral quiver]

Conductors

[fierce narwhal]

conductors

[foggy stratus]

You first meet Green Prince in Sinners Road, an act 1 area.

[fluid vale]

huge thank u 🙇‍♂️

[fierce narwhal]

yw!!!

[whole holly]

yeah like is she heart of the hunter's march or the Far Feilds, it is inconsistent but i guess haunting affected that somehow

[whole holly]

yeah but still

we better kelp characters or central figure in sea of sorrows

[near jasper]

meet potential old heart:
0 feats
0 relevance
7 gauntlets

[fierce narwhal]

weaver named murglin save us

[foggy stratus]

Khann does actually have a feat, he's an Earth Bender.

[fierce narwhal]

wish you could have just one of them in your bellhome i think they're so cute

[near jasper]

how did karn get a weavenest in what was presumably karak territory at the time

[whole holly]

i hope we get another weavenest in pharloom bay, because weaver lore is as dry as Khann literally and figuratively

[whole holly]

i assume weavers weren't neccesarily at odds with old heart, besides what is khann gonna do? open it?

[foggy stratus]

Give me a full sized laser one as a chandelier.

[fierce narwhal]

sharpdart is secretly super strong against coral and water this is what the government doesn't want u to know about

[foggy stratus]

Throw Choral at it. Or dig around.

[whole holly]

weaver structures are sturdy, i don't think khann can do anything against petrified weaver anyways

[fierce narwhal]

karn took a darpshart in the rivers of karak thats why it dried out

[near jasper]

"so sad we'll have no water soon"-earthbender directly below snowiest place in entire game series

[foggy stratus]

He's going to throw coral at the Weaver. Its prolly not gonna do anything tho.

[whole holly]

Weavers, Shamans, Old Hearts, Stilkin all collectively hated GMS but couldn't unite or at least think of better plan against her bs haunting, if absolom took a shaman with her they could actually have built a better weapon prolly or achieved more

Stilkin were so dumb to kill that Shaman, istg they have no concept of planning

[near jasper]

murglin couldve shot gms to death if they had a bit more prep time

[foggy stratus]

I'd imagine if they tried to work together it'd look like the Skyrim peace council if you didnt do the civil war quest line but like 27× worse.

[fierce narwhal]

weavenest herrah save us

[whole holly]

murglin could have built Higher Being-killer Armour

[foggy stratus]

Or a cod lobby.

[whole holly]

lol, yeah but at least if some cooperated with each other as form of united resistance

[whole holly]

i forgot about Order of Pinstresses, wow

[foggy stratus]

We all did

[near jasper]

yk

[whole holly]

yeah

[near jasper]

stiltkin are kinda stupid ngl

[fierce narwhal]

murglin made machine gun filled with void/bile infused pins

[foggy stratus]

"The fuck you mean you trained them?!?!"-Khann

[near jasper]

you never found the organ to turn it off but you mastered your enviroment huh?

sure dude sure

skill issue

[whole holly]

void, bile, wisp, mossberry stew and lot more

[foggy stratus]

Voltnest is in Karak territory so it seems. You know what that means?

[whole holly]

also why didn't they just help pinstress, she could have been ally as well as shaman, why are they so dumb, istg Groal is just dumber Soul Master

[whole holly]

random bullsilk go

[near jasper]

why didnt memorium flood when the stuff to keep the karak enclosure alive broke down with the rest of the area

[whole holly]

i hope Sea of Sorrows introduces something so i can complain about it in this channel

[foggy stratus]

So ungodly

[whole holly]

they were rationing water, clearly

[foggy fractal]

why we got loads of things to complain about already!

[near jasper]

how old are the bellvein tunnels

[foggy stratus]

"Shit its all breaking down."
"Just turn the fucking water off, we're dumb not stupid."

[whole holly]

like what? i just ran out of reasons

[foggy fractal]

y'know the classics: lace age, slabfly and retcons

[near jasper]

why is the entire waste system of the citadel a random slave they got

[whole holly]

oh yeah, i actually haven't really discussed them except retcons, slabfly needs to be retconned itslef

[foggy fractal]

w retcon

[foggy stratus]

What about wtf Loam does?

Like honestly what is his purpose?

[near jasper]

he turns 4 cogs

thats it

[whole holly]

works infinitely so gms can watch him suffer

[near jasper]

songclave should get a wish in act 3 where sherma goes to free the slab prisoners so hornet can have somewhere to reedem herself with the slab flies

[foggy stratus]

Alt ending to the wish where Hornet caves the Slab in.

[near jasper]

act 3 shouldve had more wishes

pavo let gilly loosing her doll on the wishboard but not helping the 20 homeless people in town square

[foggy stratus]

Fuck the homeless.

[whole holly]

that barnacle hermit guy in trailer better not be dull in sos dlc, if they turned coral forest colourless, they should add color to barnacle bay/pharloom bay

[foggy fractal]

I mean given how tc turned the saturation up everywhere its probably gonna be more colourful anyway

[swift needle]

Pharloom bay,main trade route between other kingdoms.I bet itll be beautiful.Im just wating for the spring reaks to start.If only team cherry released it by spring break.Dream come true.Honestly i wont be surprised if itll be the best dlc weve gotten from them so far.It certainly is the biggest.The wait must go longer,FOR GLAZING SILKSONG IS WHY THIS HEART STILL BEATS.

Man

silksong and hollow kngiht just feel SO alive

they FEEL real

the care and love they put into these games

is impeccable

silksong and hk WILL be the face of 2d games for a while

https://tenor.com/view/teyquerisi-boxymunch185-kurourushi-jjk-jjk-season-3-gif-8156775490687958234

[twin dragon]

Unfortunately they're flawed

[swift needle]

If they do end up fixing the flaws

it WILL be one of the games of all times

[uncut relic]

guys how do i get to the bottom left of the ||underwords||

its one of the only places not explored on my map (I think)

[foggy stratus]

#sk-help

[uncut relic]

oops sorry

[floral quiver]

A thought I've had is that actually leaving the Underworks only takes 80 rosaries. This seems like a lot considering the paltry amounts of rosaries on the Underworkers, but doing the only job that Hornet can do pays 1 Roaary a minute without the Silkspeed Anklets. One rosary a minute is 60 rosaries for an hour of work, an average factory shift amount of work (9.6 hours per shift) would end up with 576 rosaries in a workers pockets by shift end. More than enough for regular rest, food and leaving the Underworks into the Citadel proper with only a days worth of effort.

Like, I get the thematics and such, but calculating that out kinda made me go "these workers are paid shockingly well for their sacred service" and kinda lessened the impact of the Underworks after my first harrowing experience.

[foggy stratus]

I'd imagine guards used to be stationed to ensure none of them did that.

And chances are the actual pay outs were fewer and farther between for the general worker, seeing as most of them don't have a proper work station. And if that worked, I'd imagine they'd have done it.

[blissful harbor]

i mean, the one rosary a minute is not guaranteed
hornet can run the gauge up to full and jst now get shit as a reward

[floral quiver]

Like I said, I get the thematics.

Just lessened the feel upon realizing that these bugs get paid substantially better than a "good/well payed job" today.

[floral quiver]

True, though my assumption even on my first playthrough was unintended damage rather than "sometimes the pay machine just poofs out nothing intentionally"

[near jasper]

I mean it does take 8 legs running to even start moving the bar for the payment its not that good a job

Also the underworkers arent fed properly

"Return to your task and work off-cycle, neither eating nor supping until new-cycle begins."

[floral quiver]

True!

[frosty beacon]

not help channel

[unreal dew]

mb

[quaint kraken]

Silksong

[twin dragon]

You arent gonna be running hours upon hours though

And yk, resting costs money

[twin dragon]

I dont think its intended for it to be a place you can leave

[floral quiver]

Thematically, yes.

But those lowest ranking Choral members have to come from somewhere.

[twin dragon]

This is like considering a 500 buck pay per month good money without considering any of the expenses

[twin dragon]

Pilgrims

I dont assume everyone goes through the underworks

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[twin dragon]

How tf did sherma get there unscathed otherwise

And yk, some of them are just born there

[floral quiver]

Sherma is entirely and completely sinless as part of his character. He doesnt have any relatively minor sins to purify through work.

[twin dragon]

The way sins are categorized seem arbitrary

And yk, other pilgrims couldve been just like him

Jubilana doesnt talk about the underworks either

Im assuming the ones that do get there, arent allowed to know about the underworks

[floral quiver]

Are they? Or is that an assumption Hornet makes? I'm gonna have to read the Journal entries on the underworkers.

[twin dragon]

In the choir i mean

Caretaker mentions generations of bugs

[floral quiver]

Only because we have very little info on Citadel orthodoxy.

[twin dragon]

We do know its often bs

[floral quiver]

The generations he mentions are pilgrims outside the Citadel, in relation to the Citadel's silk experiments effectively permanently contaminating the entire population of Pharloom.

[floral quiver]

Why? Because it's not brought up by anyone before the twist?

[floral quiver]

I mean, it works. Hell, the biggest reason it's not still working is the Citadel bugs effectively poisoning themselves and their entire land with mind controlling/altering silk which gave Silk a direct vector of control.

Their orthodoxy is broken, yeah. But the thematic reasons this is so (a critique of religious zealotry and indoctrination) isn't the same as the literal, in universe reasons when given context (The Citadel leadership, in a bout of either zealotry or greed depending on how charitable you want to be poisoned their ecosystem with mind control silk in a bid for immortality for everybug)

Like, yeah, it's a charitable read of the situation and I acknowledge it's unintentional, but it is a read of the situation that takes what lore is available into consideration.

Just one that starts with "The Citadel is a religious sect that takes itself seriously and is actively trying to enact its remit and doctrine rather than be intentionally malicious"

[midnight reef]

its important to note (as it is something that I missed) that the Citadels silk polution wasnt just limited to shoving it into the shells of mortal bugs- its ended up everywhere, like the air and water of Pharloom

[floral quiver]

Yes

Thet's what I attempted to say?

[candid linden]

then why didnt you say it

[midnight reef]

because people forgor to say all their thoughts sometimes XD

[floral quiver]

Because I assumed that directly mentioning the environmental contamination would be unnecessary because how else would an entire, very large population be contaminated with something over the generations when the ones originally doing it are a relatively closed off populations?

[candid linden]

the radiance

[floral quiver]

The Radiance is a god who's infection is metaphysical. The silk contamination is something that bugs have to in some way do to each other.

Like, that's one of the big differences between the Infection and the Haunting.

The Haunting requiring a physical vector is part of its whole deal. It's not metaphysical but a physicaly caused disease.

[candid linden]

you just said its physical and then not physical bro what

[floral quiver]

Okay. If a bug lacks physical silk in their system, they cannot be Haunted because the Haunting has a physical vector. No Silk contamination, no Haunting.

The Infection is metaphysical. There is no physical thing that is necessary to be in the body in order to become Infected without which a bug is unable to be infected.

Basically, any creature is susceptible to the Radiance's Infection no matter what because it's requirements are "be a thinking entity relatively nearby to the Radiance".

The Haunting's requirements are "Have silk in the body, the more silk, the easier Silk can use you". A person with no silk in their body cannot be affected by Silk.

[twin dragon]

You would interact by jubilana presumably after seeing the underworks and she's seemingly unaware of that

[twin dragon]

The poisoning isn't really intentional

It's a byproduct of the experiments that they believed are beneficial

[floral quiver]

Well yes. I never denied that?

[twin dragon]

And thematically having a broken orthodoxy is preferable

if that's what you want to argue

[twin dragon]

clearly states to be referring to the generations of citadel bugs

[floral quiver]

Yes, but the generations born of the Citadel aren't what's important was my misspoken point.

That conversation is attempting to get across the sheer scale of the Silk contamination, that it's not just the Citadel bugs, but everyone everywhere.

I mispoke while trying to articulate my broader point

[twin dragon]

Well yeah

But this implies that the citadel bugs did indeed reproduce

inside of the citadel

[tardy marten]

where do bugs lay their eggs in pharloom

[twin dragon]

[tardy marten]

oh

[floral quiver]

And a broken orthodoxy is thematically preferable.

My consideration is on when it was broken

It being broken from the very beginning takes a bit away from the slow collapse of Citadel ethics and morals over the centuries that is the cornerstone of my personal interpretation of the Citadel.

Industrialization and the hunt for immortality and the imperialism and environmental destruction caused by that steadily eroded the Citadel's standing until it was what we see in-game.

[twin dragon]

I do agree that the orthodoxy slowly decayed after the conductors took over

in part, because that's kinda what caused the collapse of everything

[floral quiver]

Yes.

[tardy marten]

Does Silksong have as much lore as the 1st hollow knight game or does it all happen in the events of the game as we play it?

[twin dragon]

it has like 4 to 5 bibles of more convoluted lore

[tardy marten]

ok

[floral quiver]

My interpretation involves the Citadel being a religious sect that actually believed its own orthodoxy and took it seriously.

It's an orthodoxy of purification through struggle. In that kind of doctrine and mindset having Pilgrims who where Judged worthy to cross the Grand Gate, but still required some purification through work in the Underworks to support their future brothers and sisters until they too can walk the halls is just and understandable and reasonable thing in the mindset that purity comes through effort.

It's bad ethically/morally at the time the game takes place in because it doesn't stop.

[twin dragon]

Imo that really doesn't add up because we see the terrible greed of the ministers and the fact that the citadel is divided in castes, the underworkers were never meant to see the citadel's glory, the whole concept of rosary being both currency AND prayer bead's a good demonstration of how internally corrupted the citadel, despite being worse off right now, has always been, Ballador is seemingly unaware of anything that happens below, and no mention of the underworks is made

And there was a point that the constant effort of the pilgrims in the underworks was a necessity

not a "necessity", but something the ruling class deemed necessary to keep themselves afloat

It all went down once they discovered that silk could increase their lifespans

[dull moss]

It seems rather evident that the Citadel believes it’s own dogma, no?

[twin dragon]

The ruler class seems to have a different vision on it

[dire lynx]

the nasty weavers and their successors knew the truth

[dull moss]

Only Ballador, and he believed it once

[twin dragon]

He doesn't seem to take accountability for their own failures

and remembers the citadel as grand, not the shithole that it actually was

even in his last moments he counldn't get to realize or admit that the fall was a product of their own green

[floral quiver]

Yes. Which is why I'm trying not to preconceive that the bad things that happened were like that from the beginning, but rather a slow and steady decline.

The Underworks starting out as both a tool for ritual purification and an engine that supports the rest of the Citadel, then degrading as zealotry and Silk's influence grew is something I find more believable when it comes to a religious sect that takes its doctrine and orthodoxy as seriously as the Citadel is shown and implied to, rather than it just being slavery with another name from the beginning.

[dire lynx]

Romino literally wrote a poem about how their role was a lie

[twin dragon]

Thing is

the whole citadel

was slavery with another name

even with the weaver rule

[twin dragon]

Maybe that's why he's not present..

theories used to circulate how he fled pharloom but that's just throwing shit at a monument

My fucking guy can't even believe it himself

[dull moss]

Ok true, I forgot about that

[floral quiver]

No? It was and is a religious sect that people joined (relatively) willingly.

That it was devised by the Weavers/was a lie doesnt make it slavery, it just makes it a religion founded on an assumed untruth (even though its liturgy actually did help contain a sleeping god rather than it being just entirely bullshit and made up.)

[twin dragon]

It was advertised as THE grand place of pharloom though

and yk, the weavers needed numbers

[twin dragon]

Im pretty sure the weavers knew that the melody that was sung by the pilgrims did help contain gms

It would most likely be the same one they used

[floral quiver]

And it became so with effort and faith (and imperialism).

Those gilded halls and nice robes didnt pop out if the eather.

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[twin dragon]

Even when the luxury was apparently not present

Unless you mean something else

[dull moss]

Pious Isamor actually took pride in the Citadel’s austerity. At least in the beginning it was meant to be an unadorned place of worship

[twin dragon]

Yeah i dont disagree

it must've been popular for it to work at all though

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[twin dragon]

Isamor also kinda describes how the pilgrims lives would be dedicated to one thing

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[twin dragon]

I would call it a brotherhood but we don't know how optional it was to be there

[floral quiver]

It's a religious sect. Open to both males and females

Just call it a sect

[twin dragon]

That's what i meant yes

[dull moss]

It still is popular by the time Hornet arrives. The pilgrims desire salvation, not pomp, though the latter is obviously proof of the former for them

[floral quiver]

The bugs of Pharloom seem to be pious and religious as a big part of their culture and mindset even without any prompting from silk

[twin dragon]

Im curious how they managed to draw in pilgrims

That mindset couldntve popped out of nowhere

[floral quiver]

Why?

Its not like a faithful and religious mindset is uncommon

Today or in the past

[twin dragon]

It mustve been cultivated through time i guess

[floral quiver]

People like to believe

[twin dragon]

If only we knew how the old pharloom was.

[twin dragon]

Usually there is a root cause for it

[dull moss]

We know the Weavers started attracting pilgrims. I assume they used their great powers to present themselves as divine emissaries

[twin dragon]

I guess

[floral quiver]

You're assuming that it's an abberation caused by some outside force when the people of Pharloom could just be a very religious people from the off.

Like lots of cultures among humanity

[twin dragon]

We dont know the cause of why theyre very religious

people usually arent religious from the off

unless instructed as such

[twin dragon]

True

eventually it shifted into the worship of silk

or the citadel itself

[dull moss]

Iirc the Weavers always presented Silk as a goddess

[twin dragon]

not gms

the material itself

as most of the citadel werent aware of what their actions led to

Nor of the one above

[dull moss]

Oh. Well they don’t worship it, but they do view it as a divine material

[twin dragon]

Im inclined to believe it was part of the things they worshipped

The choirbugs apparently fight for it

needolin dialogue

[floral quiver]

Now.

They fight for it now.

[twin dragon]

Usually needolin dialogues arent what silk thinks

[floral quiver]

We don't know if that's not a change in mindset caused by the Haunting

[twin dragon]

it probably reflects the state of that bug before the haunting

And yk, even then, they're fighting for the material, not the deity

[dire lynx]

is it sending now

finallyyyyyyy

[dull moss]

Fighting over silk doesn’t mean they worship it. They don’t pray to it or anthropomorphize it. But it is absolutely important for them

[twin dragon]

Yeah ive been thinking the fact that they think it is a byproduct of the citadel

and they think of it as a gift

[floral quiver]

The Haunting also actively changes mindsets subtly. That's one of the ways Silk controls the Citadel. She orders something done and the enactors of her will assume it's their idea.

[twin dragon]

Yeah but no needolin dialogue reflects on silk's will

[floral quiver]

How do you know?

[twin dragon]

Because uh

there's no needolin dialogue

that reflects on silk's will

its usually about what the bug thinks and what it has been doing

Plus, what sense would it make for the choirbug to fight for its sacred material now? instead of the deity

[dull moss]

I think it’s fair to assume they understand the connection between Weavers and silk. So yeah, a gift from the Weavers

[twin dragon]

The weavers were long gone though

Also not talking just about the sacred silk

[dull moss]

They are still venerated as saints though

[twin dragon]

The vaultkeepers are aware that they're gone and openly despises them

idk about the rest of the citadel

[dire lynx]

someone doesnt need to be around for people to still worship them

[floral quiver]

A single Vaultkeeper who openly despises seemingly anyone who interrupts his quest for knowledge.

Hornet isnt special in this regard in that I'm certain Cardinius would say anyone should have just died out rather than interrupt his learning.

I'm disenclined to take Vaultkeeper Cardinius as an exemplar of Vaultkeeper doctrine and beliefs, just as I'm disenclined to assume Ballador is the be all end all if Conductors

[dull moss]

He specifically criticizes their viciousness and disrespect for knowledge

[floral quiver]

Yes? Him having reasons doesn't imply that all Vaultkeepers were like him and hating Weavers was a common belief among his caste

Just that he hates them.

And again, I'm certain if you put some other bugs in Hornets place he'd have just as harsh and assholish opinions about them and their ancestors

[marble oasis]

What are you talking about

[dull moss]

Yes I agree that he doesn’t represent Vaultkeepers as a whole. But he dislikes Weavers distinctly from outsiders in general

[floral quiver]

The Haunting manipulates minds subtly. In that the Haunted bugs of the Citadel are doing the actions ordered by Silk (capturing Weaverkin etc) not because they would do so normally but because the idea to do so was put in their heads through silk. Thats why the Citadel still has paperwork and bureaucracy, because those actions aren't directly told, but rather put into the Choral leadership heads and enacted like any other operation.

Silk rules through subtle manipulation. At least in the Citadel.

[marble oasis]

Not necessarily

They harvest silk off her cocoon so they could have independently started sacrificing weavers to her

[sick tinsel]

what are you guys talking about

[floral quiver]

I don't think so. From his characterization, Hornet's Weaverdom is one of the reasons he hates her specifically, but I don't think he somehow hates them quantifiably more than any other species. It's just that a Weaverkin was in front of him at that moment so that's what he was focused on.

[floral quiver]

Could have. I don't believe so considering that one of the things about the Citadel is that its a dead place and had been a relatively dead place for a long while, until Hornet arriving effectively causes it to activate.

Like, the whole "dark and quiet mausoleum filled with corpses thrown into activity by silk threads spreading everywhere" kinda says a lot about who's in control of the place.

[sick tinsel]

i think some character stated that the citadel have been reactivated with the sole purpose to kill hornet

[low oracle]

Why though? His first words are insults already, her heritage pretty much irrelevant from the very start. He does follow her orders because of it, but is an asshole either way. Until obtaining eight cylinders at least.

[floral quiver]

Exactly my point.

The idea I'm arguing against is that the Vaultkeepers as a group having some special hatred for the Weavers is the cause of his ire.

I think he's just a hateful jerk who'd react the same way to anyone.

[low oracle]

They very likely had no hatred for Weavers as a group, that'd contradict their entire logic of preaching the citadel's religion (idk if I said that right). It's just survivorship bias at best, since he's the last sane vaultkeeper pre-act3 ending.

[floral quiver]

Yes exactly!

[low oracle]

Because the Weavers are gods he can't defy. Even if he hates them, his role still requires the following of orders.

[floral quiver]

Less that and more "I hate you, but you're a Weaver and my doctrine says I have to help you even if I really don't want to"

Which, you know, he very obviously would rather be doing anything but helping this random, disrespectful Weaverkin who interrupted his sacred work.

But he has to.

[dull moss]

I’m not arguing for it. I think Cardinius as an individual has a dislike of Weavers despite the respect he must give them. He says:

Horrid she! What fool dares strike a holy Vaultkeeper! It has knowledge! Insight! As much as any could possibly retain in our fallen age. Would she cast it all aside just to create more death? If so, she is Weaver to the core!
Apparently he views casting aside knowledge as something Weavers do/did. This is a grievance born of past events. I can’t see him saying this about any other random ancestry

[terse warren]

Something something First Sinner something something lying

[candid linden]

guys

theres like a thing you talk to in holllowknight in kings pass

and it calls hallowest the last and only civilization

so whats pharloom

[narrow horizon]

That is what it was believed to be by lore of the people who lived there

It isn't true

[low oracle]

I think it says last and only eternal civilisation? Which could mean that the Pale King was the last Wyrm.

Or it's just the meme.

[foggy stratus]

Its "the last and only civilization, the eternal Kingdom. Hallownest"

[low oracle]

Idk then.

[foggy stratus]

He could be right in the case that there aren't anymore living kingdoms in the world of HK, which we won't know until we get more content potentially involving places like the City of Steel.

[limpid summit]

It’s written for travelers in the far future

He’s intending for his kingdom to survive to be the last

[frank dove]

Actually pharloom is canonically to the right

And world is 2 dimensional so

There is a 0% chance the writing is on the back of the sign

[low oracle]

The world is 3D, both in-game and lore-wise.

[frank dove]

Nope nope

Then why is the map 2d 🤯

[foggy stratus]

We see TK and Hornet walk into openings behind them several times.

Like TK with Sly's hut.

[frank dove]

Obviously if you are going to make a game canonically 3d you must have a 3d map like rain world

[frank dove]

Just clips into another layer of reality

Wait wasn't the game actually only made made in layers

[low oracle]

The map is literally 3D in the engine.

Silly...

[frank dove]

Just flat planes though

I was joking but now that I think about it

It is only made of flat one sided panels

[low oracle]

Is Paper 2D?

Even if you stack it.

[foggy stratus]

I say no.

[frank dove]

If you only draw/write on one side

Then the contents are 2d

If you try to make it look 3d

That is what we call 2.5d

[low oracle]

The layers aren't 2D either.

[frank dove]

HA 2.5

[low oracle]

Either way, this is to stupid for me to discuss.

[frank dove]

I agree

[sick tinsel]

if the river that gave khann army strength never dried, wuoldve they won the war against the citadel

[foggy stratus]

Hard to say. I'd imagine it would be a difficult fight on both sides, severly weakening them both potentially letting other Citadel hating groups to jump the Citadel.

But then again Khann did say they were alone against the Pale Light so

[sick tinsel]

tbh i think kerak was the only anti citadel

[foggy stratus]

Pinstresses, Stillkin, Shamans.

[sick tinsel]

verdania is far and hunter march probably couldent care more

[sick tinsel]

there are only 2 pinstresses in pharloom

actually 3

but 1 is dead

[foggy stratus]

Used to be way more. Until the Citadel killed them all.

[sick tinsel]

fair

the shamans dosent seem to hate citadel tho

and for the stillkin, the citadel probably didnt fight them

[foggy stratus]

One of them went to Bilewater to try and work with the Stillkin.

[sick tinsel]

thier homes was already wastelands

[sick tinsel]

and they killed them

[foggy stratus]

The Stillkin outright hate the Citadel.

[sick tinsel]

yes but do they have to power to fight the citadel

[foggy stratus]

The Exhaust Organ turned their home into maggot infested Bile hell scape.

[foggy stratus]

I mean yeah. Maybe not to win but to fight.

[sick tinsel]

maybe

khann army was the only one capable

[foggy stratus]

Karmalitta also hates GMS at least. So likely her and the Skarr would have no issues with fighting the Citadel.

[sick tinsel]

we dont have proof that the skarrs fought the citadel

hate yes

but fight nah

[floral quiver]

What about all of the background elements that show there is stuff beyond the 2d plane? Like the aquaducts in the background of Bilewater, or the bridges that lead to other parts of the Citadel that we never see?

Or the fact that the Citadel is shown directly in cutscenes to be a massive three dimensional building?

[plain ruin]

Cutscenes are proof that the world is 3D, yeah

Also the Vaults entry gauntlet, and the Forum, and Khann, and Karm…

[sick tinsel]

the game itself is 3D

it uses layers to appear 2D

so ofc the lore is also in 3D

[floral quiver]

I mean technically yeah

The game is build using a 3d engine, but it's very much a "2d" game design and aestheticwise.

Lots of old games built on dedicated 2d engines implied greater 3d universes through visual tricks like Silksong does. In fact layering has been a known thing since the 80's.

[sick tinsel]

lets get back to lore wise i did not mean to make this a topic

[floral quiver]

I mean, Khanns army is one of two that decisively lost along with Verdania.

[sick tinsel]

whats the second one

stillkins ?

[floral quiver]

Verdania

[sick tinsel]

i dont think verdania fought

[floral quiver]

Well no, because it would have lost

[sick tinsel]

prob end up like bilewater

[floral quiver]

You don't pull a desperate gambit like the Princes did if you're even a little confident in potential victory.

[sick tinsel]

im surprised that the citadel cared more about verdania then hunter march

[floral quiver]

We know how it ended up. Gone.

I'm certain the Verdanians didnt just lay down and die after their desperation play failed

[sick tinsel]

they prob got murdered by the citadel

[floral quiver]

Verdania was a well maintained kingdom with resources.

The Skarr are effectively just a rather large bandit clan easily (for a state the scale of the Citadel) contained to their own territory. One with little to use by the Citadel it seems

[sick tinsel]

i mean if the defeated the skarrs, wouldent they have access to larger parts of far fields

[floral quiver]

They already have as much of Far Fields as they want.

They effectively controlled the main artery of travel between Deep Docks and Greymoor. The rest is frontier country.

Basically, over 3 quarters of the map were either directly or indirectly controlled by the Citadel when it was active, either through political deals, direct fealty, or "the Citadel sends soldiers to clear out animals every few months"

[glacial warren]

I think the Skarr also couldn’t really trespass into Greymoor on account of the Moorwing, and they likely aren’t comfortable around the Deep Docks’ machinery and high temps.

Oh right plus Greymoor is home to an opposing clan/tribe, on account of the Craws. The Skarr don’t venture up there because they likely don’t want to draw the ire of the Court and the Crawfather.

[sick tinsel]

there was probably alot of moorwings roaming around

[floral quiver]

The Moorwing is dangerous but not that dangerous.

[sick tinsel]

because skarrs seem to be skilled in combat they could take 1 moorwing

maybe the craws was citadel allies ?

[glacial warren]

It killed everyone and everything in its path once the Haunting meant it got loose.

[foggy stratus]

I mean they do have tunnels that lead into the heart for Greymoor.

[glacial warren]

Not likely. The Craws keep to themselves and the Citadel Bugs and Pilgrims are notably absent once you go a certain point too far east into Greymoor.

[floral quiver]

Yeah, a bunch of untrained civilians with tools for weapons.

[sick tinsel]

so they are they own civilization ?

[glacial warren]

True but also in the interim, it’s been hunting Greymoor ever since and preying on anyone and anything unfortunate enough to stumble too far west.

[floral quiver]

Theyre their own thing yeah. And relatively recent too

[glacial warren]

Most likely. They’re their own separate tribe/clan and no one really messes with them, for obvious reasons.

Hell even Shakra says to be wary of them, as she’s gotten her fair share of new scars from her bouts with the birds.

Granted Shakra’s not too tough of a fighter so that’s to be expected.

[floral quiver]

Well yeah, I just don't think it would stand up to a band of Skarr warriors considering only one Hornet can kick its ass.

[sick tinsel]

i find it interesting how they are still intelligent and able to work on thier own while being haunted

[floral quiver]

And while Hornet is very very badass, Skarr warriors arent that far below her.

[glacial warren]

Hornet is a Demigod, mind you. The Skarr are tough but they’re still mortal Bugs.

[floral quiver]

And I've gotten my teeth handed to me enough to respect the training and deadliness of the Skarr

[glacial warren]

For them to challenge the Moorwing, they’d likely need a Skarrgard, a Last Claw, or possibly the aid of Karmelita herself to oppose the huge avian.

Though Karmelita’s out of commission in modern day, so she’s unable to provide aid.

[foggy stratus]

Bro its just a fucking bird.

[floral quiver]

No. I very much dont believe that.

Like, the Moorwing isn't difficult.

[foggy stratus]

They have entire tools designed to take out flying creatures.

[glacial warren]

It’s a gargantuan bird that moves blisteringly fast and fires rotary blades that cover a very wide AoE. It could cut down the lesser Skarr troops in droves given how much range it covers.

[foggy stratus]

Bro it moves about as fast as Hornet with dash.

A little faster.

[floral quiver]

It doesnt move blistering fast though. It moves fairly slow and telegraphs like its it's job

It's dive is simple to dodge

[foggy stratus]

The magentite brooch moves rosaries blistering fast if Moorwing does so.

[glacial warren]

Like the thing is tough, durable, and extremely persistent despite being Blind. The Curvesickles are great but it’s clear the Skarr are only used to hunting smaller aerial prey native to the Fields.

It’s likely the combined danger of the Moorwing and the Craws that pose the most serious hazard to the ants if they tried to expand too far into Greymoor.

[sick tinsel]

hornet says in the journal if they would be stronger if they werent haunted

[floral quiver]

No?

Like, the Craw aren't as dangerous as a band of Skarr warriors.

I can punk on Craw all day but I have to concentrate when fighting Skarr.

[sick tinsel]

the big skarr guy is as large as moorwing

[foggy stratus]

Or the Skarrs understand the dangers of over extending and dont want their territories to become too costly to hold.

[glacial warren]

Though granted the Moorwing is tough but still slim pickings compared to the Craws. Mostly since the Moorwing is but one creature, whereas the Craws have a tribe of trained, lethal warriors plus their council of elites led by the Crawfather.

[sick tinsel]

maybe they dont have a reason to expand

[floral quiver]

Not as lethal. Not as well trained.

[glacial warren]

Possibly this as well. They dominate the Far Fields as the top of its food chain, much as the Craws dominate Greymoor and the Stilkin dominate Bilewater. They’re comfortable being in their element.

[foggy stratus]

The Skarrs are to Silksong what the Mantisies were to Hollow Knight.

[sick tinsel]

i think of them more like bees in the hive

[glacial warren]

The Craws were vicious enough that Shakra essentially says ‘turn back or die’ when approaching their half of Greymoor, and that she’s got several new scars from confronting them.

[sick tinsel]

they all have specific roles and they are loyal to thier queen

and they seem isolated from the rest of the kingdom

[glacial warren]

Actually wait come to think of it, the Craws being such tough opponents makes perfect sense. They’re birds. Birds are natural predators to arthropods/bugs.

[floral quiver]

And?

She's very obviously overstating their danger because they are nowhere near as dangerous as the Skarr.

[floral quiver]

The Craw arent birds.

They're bugs.

[glacial warren]

She’s from a full-on warrior tribe and a lethally trained, expert veteran of combat who mows down most of Pharloom’s dangers and can even stand on her own versus the Voided Bugs. It’s kind of imperative she knows when she’s outmatched.

[sick tinsel]

real

[foggy stratus]

Craws used scavenged tools and pins and frankly don't seem too skilled with the pins.

[floral quiver]

And in this case she is just wrong. The Craw don't in any way match up to their lethal reputation.

[sick tinsel]

shakra is still mortal

she isnt a god tier bug

[glacial warren]

Like Shakra says the ‘red-shells’ are a delight to face and enjoys fighting a real, honest challenge. Of the Craws, she essentially says ‘don’t go any further unless you’re utterly sure you’re prepared. My shell will forever bear the score of their Pins.’

[foggy stratus]

Shakra could have just gotten swarmed.

[glacial warren]

The Skarr use very similar zerg rush tactics. She still found them significantly easier foes to face.

[floral quiver]

Theyre skilled in that they obviously know how to fight, but also a lot of their attacks are frustrated flailing.

[glacial warren]

The Craws seem more comfortable fighting at range than at Melee combat.

Like they have truly impressive, long-distance swoops, dives, lunges, and the Sauatcraws boasting their triple Throwing Pins which makes any fight feel claustrophobic.

[sick tinsel]

maybe because the skarrs dosent seem to be more agile than craws, craws can both fly and dash, skarrs mainly rely on direct combat and tanking hits

[floral quiver]

That's still melee combat.

Sauatcraws are the only ranged combatant you mentioned

[glacial warren]

Also it is interesting to note that the Skarr and the Craws are kind of an inversion of each other’s tactics. The Skarr tunnel underground to relocate and prefer Melee combat to Ranged. The Craws dominate the sky and prefer Ranged combat to the Melee.

[floral quiver]

Hell, the Craws diving is one of the things that makes them a sinch to fight

[floral quiver]

Again. Flying doesnt equate to ranged combat. They still have to meet pin or claw in order to do damage.

[glacial warren]

The Craws seem to indeed rely on dexterity to fight. They zip in and out, always staying just out of reach, whereas the Skarr have a proper Damage Sponge in the form of the Skarrgard.

[sick tinsel]

and dont forget they rely more on numbers

[floral quiver]

Them having to actually hit hornet with their weapons is what makes them unthreatening. Just wait for them to dive or land, then strike them untill they die.

[glacial warren]

Both of them do indeed rely on zerg rush tactics. They prefer to fight in large groups or outright swarms.

With the exception of the Skarrgard, as it needs no army. The creature itself is an army.

[sick tinsel]

the skarrs seem more capable in 1v1s than craws

[glacial warren]

To an extent though it’s rare to find any of them alone. Or if they seem alone, they often summon reinforcements.

[floral quiver]

At most three. The first Craw gauntlet never has more than three enemies on screen at once. Might even be two on screen. Been a bit since my last fight in that gauntlet

[sick tinsel]

at most they are on groups of 2

[floral quiver]

Otherwise most Craw you can fight are alone and can be kept alone

Not a horde or swarm faction

[floral quiver]

And those groups of two are very complimentary to each other

[glacial warren]

Ye. The Skarr and the Craws are pretty tough. And then there’s the Stilkin, who are on an entirely different level.

[sick tinsel]

they rely on traps

[glacial warren]

They’re in the walls. They’re in the goddamn walls.

[floral quiver]

One skarr warrior controls the ground, the other keeps Hornet from fully claiming the sky

[sick tinsel]

i wonder what they hunt considering nothing on bilewater seems safe to eat

[glacial warren]

They likely hunt the Slubberlugs/Roaches, and they seem to collect large tubs of Muckmaggots as a food source.

[floral quiver]

Probably just have measurably shorter lifespans

[glacial warren]

Then again they can hunt anything and everything given nothing has the power to truly challenge them. Either they kill trespassers directly or they succumb to the utter, relentless hazard that is Bilewater.

[sick tinsel]

maybe

[floral quiver]

"Unsafe to eat" doesnt generally immediately kill you

[sick tinsel]

unless they feed on muck maggots

[glacial warren]

Ye they have whole tubs of them in Bilehaven.

Possibly might also hunt the Slubberlugs that’re bred in the water.

[foggy stratus]

They boil or pickle the muck maggots.

[floral quiver]

Note that around half of Bilewater was Citadel held territory before they went quiet.

[sick tinsel]

maybe they do the same as the chef guy

[glacial warren]

That’s something unique to a certain chef.

[sick tinsel]

i fought him in act 3 🥀

[glacial warren]

They held a sliver of it but. The Stilkin are vicious hunters and prove to be extremely difficult to hurt in a way that matters.

[floral quiver]

There's a sharp divide between "once Citadel territory" and "actual Stilkin claimed territory'

[foggy stratus]

I mean just because Luigi is famous for it doesn't mean other people don't do it.

[glacial warren]

But the Stilkin still stalk most portions of Bilewater even outside of the strict area that marks the heart of their tribe.

[sick tinsel]

if hes famous for it then the recipe should be also famous

[floral quiver]

Well yeah, the Citadel no longer defends what was its territory thanks to the Haunting.

[sick tinsel]

if grandmother silk returned it would probably do that

[floral quiver]

Most definitely

[glacial warren]

They couldn’t defend it to begin with. They’re no match for the Stilkin, or Bilewater in general given how inhospitable it is.

The entire location is one giant deathtrap to anyone or anything stupid enough to wander in.

[floral quiver]

That's an assumption. We don't know how what was Citadel territory was "lost"

[sick tinsel]

i dont think the citadel would want bilewater anyways

its called bilewater for a reason

[glacial warren]

The Silk-eating pools of Muckmaggots, the pens of Slubberlugs, the Stilkin zipping in and out of the sludge to shoot their explosive darts, all the self-destructing Bugs that serve as living bombs…

[floral quiver]

And?

It's dangerous. Danger means nothing when your army will fight and die happy they did their sacred duty.

[glacial warren]

Hell even the sludge bubbles are also a hazard as they self-destruct when popped. Everything’s bombs.

[glacial warren]

Then they’ll waste their entire army and gain not one sliver of ground. They’d be throwing themselves into a meat grinder.

[sick tinsel]

why would the citadel be interested in the first place

[foggy stratus]

Bug Vietnam.

[glacial warren]

The friggin’ bushmen.

[floral quiver]

They controlled half of Bilewater! They built major infrastructure there!

[floral quiver]

Unknown but they did enough for their architecture to be prominent.

[glacial warren]

They controlled some small sliver, but how many did they lose before they had to call it quits? Not just to the Stilkin, but to all the rampant pollution Phantom was belching out from the Organ.

[sick tinsel]

only exhaust organ and bellways

the rest was probably prebuilt by the stillkins

since they existed as a tribe before the citadel

[glacial warren]

Ye the Lore states that Bilewater, before its corruption, was strictly the Stilkin’s territory. Once Phantom started spreading the smog, they became extremely hostile to everything and anything that dared trespass.

[sick tinsel]

dont blame phantom bro she was forced to do that

blame the citadel

[glacial warren]

Not blaming her, just stating that she is in fact in charge of the Organ and its operation. She’s the one in charge of bellowing out the pollutive smog.

[sick tinsel]

okay

[floral quiver]

The points where Citadel architecture ends and Stilkin architecture actively begins.

"A small sliver"

[glacial warren]

Though yeah she was more or less unceremoniously dumped into this position and left to rot.

[floral quiver]

Gold is former Citadel territory, black is the start of stilkin architecture

[sick tinsel]

feels inaccurate

[glacial warren]

Actually come to think of it, the stone structure here implies this place may have once been part of the original Citadel, similar to the Putrefied Ducts up above.

Since Isamor states the original structure was of ‘humble stone’.

Though it’s been long since abandoned and due to the Organ became the Citadel’s dumping ground/landfill.

[floral quiver]

Yes. What is now Bilewater is filled with Citadel architecture from different eras

[sick tinsel]

maybe the putrified ducts also belonged to the stillkins

since both regions are known as the "bilelands"

[floral quiver]

No?

The putrified ducts are former aquaducts.

[glacial warren]

The Ducts are strictly of Citadel connection and make. Likely part of the original Citadel from way back when.

Back when they used stone rather than metal.

[floral quiver]

You can see the sheer expanse of them throughout Bilewater

[sick tinsel]

yea but anyone could use stone

[floral quiver]

The former aquaduct network is massive

[sick tinsel]

i dont have proof to back my claim anyways

[glacial warren]

The Stilkin seem to moreso use wood than stone. A lot of their structures are made using whittled bamboo.

And then out of all the external factions, there’s also the fact that the Burning Bugs were a thing.

[sick tinsel]

isnt the burning bugs more of a recent thing

[glacial warren]

They just. Quietly built up under the Citadel’s noses and no one was the wiser.

[floral quiver]

Do we know that?

How old do you think they are?

[glacial warren]

And it’s outright freaky that the room where they built their totem/effigy/god is right above Bellhart.

[obtuse pivot]

Aw man i forgot to do huntress quest

[sick tinsel]

yea me too

[glacial warren]

Not sure exactly in what era they set up shop. All I know is they’re spoopy.

[sick tinsel]

considering that we still can see father of the flame body burning its not that old

[glacial warren]

Like just. There’s a suicidal fire murder cult just casually there doing their worship of their giant totem and no one is aware they exist.

It’s extremely unsettling to consider such a danger existed and it was right under everyone’s noses.

[floral quiver]

Or Noone cares.

[sick tinsel]

not even the grandmother silk atp

[floral quiver]

It's a singular weird cult that stays by itself

[obtuse pivot]

Anyways, yall know that cage room from the cradle

[sick tinsel]

yeah

[glacial warren]

Either this or whatever few unlucky Bugs who stumbled in didn’t live to tell the tale. Last thing they see is a blob of sentient flame hurtling itself at them.

[obtuse pivot]

I think its hinting the dlcs

[sick tinsel]

yes i agree

i find the city of steel intersting

who are those masters

and why they want hornet

we know that city of steel may be more advanced than pharloom

[floral quiver]

Yeah?

Still not actually dangerous enough to do anything about. They're a tiny cult in a part of the world no-one wants

[sick tinsel]

and they probably relied on soul instead of silk

which could explain why they want hornet

[floral quiver]

?

[sick tinsel]

maybe they have some ability to extract soul out of silk ?

[floral quiver]

Aah

[glacial warren]

They can control living fire and worship a giant Totem that also controls living fire, one would think this’d be a deep concern if they were ever discovered.

[obtuse pivot]

For me city of steel and Blackbarrens also interesting

[sick tinsel]

black barrens ?

[obtuse pivot]

Yeah, i want some story of the black wyrm

[sick tinsel]

the blackwyrm is probably a location name

[obtuse pivot]

With also some parts of the war

[sick tinsel]

not another wyrm

[floral quiver]

No?

That's just bumpkin hedge magic.

Ooh, they control flames! (A chamber of soldiers crushes them and their tree)

[sick tinsel]

maybe its the wyrm that rules the black barrens

maybe

and they went to war with hallownest

[obtuse pivot]

That's what i was gonna say

[blissful harbor]

if another wyrm fought against hallownest
you’d think that would be way more documented

[floral quiver]

It would be deeply concerning if they were evangelical and expansionist

[sick tinsel]

hallownest is already dead and rotting

[floral quiver]

Which they dont seem to be

[sick tinsel]

what do you wanna find bro

and bugs in hallownest used silk to write stuff which decayed over time

[blissful harbor]

there are tons of characters we speak too what even is this point
you’d think Dung defender would mention it besides a throwaway line in the Journal
you’d think Lemm, the historian of hallownest, would mention it somewhere

you’d think the resident wyrm expert would maybe know something about that

[floral quiver]

Why?

[sick tinsel]

lemm dosent even know much about the hollow knight

[obtuse pivot]

I also wanna know who rules city of steel

[sick tinsel]

he clearly dosent know much

[blissful harbor]

i’m saying there would be documentation

[sick tinsel]

the masters

[blissful harbor]

there are tons of idols are journals

someone would’ve mentioned a war

with another wyrm

[floral quiver]

Documentation either lost or destroyed

[obtuse pivot]

It would be cool seing city of steel on a normal gameplay out of being steel soul mode exclusive

[sick tinsel]

maybe it was a secret

[obtuse pivot]

The exclusive could be other things there

[sick tinsel]

maybe hallownest was the agressor

[floral quiver]

And the ones that mentioned it are gone. Simple

[limpid summit]

Bardoon would likely mention it

Honestly

[blissful harbor]

sure if you wanna stretch we can pull out alk the maybes

[sick tinsel]

i mean only 6 people participated on it

not a whole kingdom

[sick tinsel]

bardoon didnt exist before hallownest

[blissful harbor]

it was a battle with his five protectors of the kingdom
thst was his military wdym
he sent his best warriors
that’s like me saying “oh it’s just the avengers like 7 guys not the whole of America”

[floral quiver]

It's not a stretch. Hallownests history being a patchwork with more holes than fabric is an important part of its character

[blissful harbor]

was referring to this

context clues

[sick tinsel]

this would mean normal bugs wouldent know about it ?

[floral quiver]

What context clues?

[blissful harbor]

“we can pull out all the maybes” i was talking to the person who was doing so

[limpid summit]

You could also say that Radiance had a giant war with Unn but all mention of it was stamped out

That would be as substantiated

[obtuse pivot]

Also delicate flower's real name is everbloom?

[sick tinsel]

unlikely

unn dosent seem to be into this stuff

she basically accepted pale king rule

and being forgotten

[limpid summit]

After a gigantic battle she was forced to

[sick tinsel]

why would she fight the radiance

[limpid summit]

You see what I’m getting at

[sick tinsel]

maybe

[floral quiver]

Tolerated. Not accepted. There is a difference.

A chunk of her territory was taken and she couldnt stop that. Her children then warned off their kin and others because of this theft.

[blissful harbor]

my question is all those battles are victories
how the hell did the five knights take down a wyrm

[floral quiver]

Violence

[limpid summit]

There was a sixth knight

[floral quiver]

Wyrms arent unkillable.

[blissful harbor]

yes i’m sure throwing shit and flowers at a god will work wonders

[limpid summit]

PK certainly was

[blissful harbor]

they’re still very powerful

[floral quiver]

So?

[blissful harbor]

wdym so

[limpid summit]

Blackwyrm could have been a place or even a battle tactic

[floral quiver]

Do enough violence and they die

[limpid summit]

Literally those things are entirely as likely

Battle of the _

[blissful harbor]

“enough violence” sure but again they are fighting a god
they aren’t like Hornets and TK with special powers (well isma and maybe zemer i guess)

they’re just strong bugs

[floral quiver]

Wyrms being powerful means all of nothing considering the one Wyrm we do know of is very dead

[blissful harbor]

who likely killed himself

not like someone killed him

[solar gale]

The one wyrm we know of died of grief and regret

Not any physical injury

[limpid summit]

TK packs up a Knight in his prime

PK was likely way stronger than base TK

[sick tinsel]

guys hear me out on this

serene lands is prob the only civilization that could resist the void

the land that grey mourner came from

[blissful harbor]

lands serene is gonna be some BS like the orgin of pale beings or something

being the origin of the “first light”

[sick tinsel]

nah

[limpid summit]

Man I hate everbloom

[sick tinsel]

we know that bugs used to be massive in hollow knight history and they got smaller by time

maybe pale beings are the ones that didnt shrink

[foggy stratus]

Or its going to be unimaginably boring.

[sinful nimbus]

lands serene is evil

[floral quiver]

They very much are like the Hornets of the world. There is nothing that says that a Wyrm can't be killed. Just assumptions based on their claimed godhood.

Many gods can be killed.

[sinful nimbus]

devotion and destruction also its at the top of the world because void is at the bottom

team cherry hire me

[floral quiver]

In general?

[blissful harbor]

yes gods can be killed
not by normal means, thst has been the consistent factor of each and every single HB death

and wym they are like Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah its infinite

[blissful harbor]

i don’t see them having a god parent and wielding soul

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think the pale king had any powers

[blissful harbor]

go away powdered

[sinful nimbus]

The reason he's considered godlike is because of his supreme intellect

[sick tinsel]

they would break mid air

[blissful harbor]

youre banned

[foggy stratus]

You're opinion is sucking.

[sinful nimbus]

Your*

[floral quiver]

He seems to have had a large reserve of Soul compared to common bugs. And prescience.

[foggy stratus]

I meant what I said.

[blissful harbor]

if PK had no powers
where did the soul shit come from in vessels and hornet
riddle me this atheists

[floral quiver]

Literally could see the future

[sick tinsel]

he clearly can fly and use soul abilities

[sinful nimbus]

Its cuz they're zombvies

[sinful nimbus]

Bro can fly 🥀

[blissful harbor]

hornet isn’t a zombie

[sinful nimbus]

maskfly level

[sick tinsel]

monarch wings

also him at white defender bossfight

[sinful nimbus]

She's half weaver

[floral quiver]

Hell, him trying to defy the future in an act of supreme hubris is what got his kingdom into its mess in the first place

[blissful harbor]

great quality

[sinful nimbus]

yup he can fly

[sick tinsel]

[sinful nimbus]

well

He can double jump idk about flying

[blissful harbor]

he can fly
TK only double jumps cause monarch wings only revives their wings for a second

[sinful nimbus]

Who's to say he didn't rely on monarchflies

[blissful harbor]

he is the monarchfly

[sick tinsel]

would hornet return to hallownest post silksong

what yall think

[near jasper]

Maybe but shes probably staying in pharloom for a while

Not like theres much reason anyone would go to hallownest anymore

[floral quiver]

Not much there. I think if she didnt stay in Pharloom for the foreseeable future, she's probably gonna become a knight errant, wandering the world helping people, righting wrongs and fighting the good fight.

Hornet is a curious and adventurous spirit that was held back by her self imposed duty to guard a tomb

[sick tinsel]

tbh i think hallownest would stay as it is

and it would be just forgotten crossroads ancient basin and city of tears

since i dont think anyone would be able to reclaim the other parts

even if the infection is gone

[near jasper]

And waterways

[sick tinsel]

yea

white lady is probably gonna rule hallownest

despite being blind

[near jasper]

Why would she rule hallownest everyone is deas

[floral quiver]

Not much to rule

[near jasper]

Just let yourself be retired if someone wants to be king kings Brand is on the knights corpse

[sick tinsel]

there should be some loyal people left

atleast rule whats left

[floral quiver]

Corpses and tomb robbers

[sick tinsel]

city guards would not be infected anymore post game tho

[floral quiver]

They're dead

Husks

[near jasper]

Wait

Zote will probably become the new king of hallownest

[blissful harbor]

mantises could expand

[foggy stratus]

He's dead in Greenpath.

[near jasper]

Fake zote to show off not following precepts

[floral quiver]

Their old rival is dead now. 🙂

Soon the "City of Tears" will be a Mantis settlement! :glory

[near jasper]

How long did hornet stay in hallownest before she got captured

[foggy stratus]

[near jasper]

What even is the point of staying there after the infection

[foggy stratus]

Where else would she go?

[near jasper]

Idk man

[sick tinsel]

i think husks mean that they are mindless

not that they are dead

[sick tinsel]

mantis superiority

[near jasper]

Its a miracle if crossroads doesnt collapse now that the infection globs in it suddenly dissapeared

[blissful harbor]

husks are dead

[foggy stratus]

They're dead.

[limpid summit]

Mantises expand, peaceful Flukes repopulate the waterways

[blissful harbor]

they are reanimated corpses

[sick tinsel]

fah

[foggy stratus]

Hunter says so in his wandering husk notes.

[sick tinsel]

can we burn royal waterways so flukes dont repopulate they jumped me on my first run so hard

[twin dragon]

The citadel seemed to move on, there's also a lack of weaver imagery around the citadel as whole, they seem to focus on the construct/their source of silk more

I loved when radagon of the golden order met with v2 and yi to overtake the healing church and crisanta in dark souls 6

[sick tinsel]

if the haunting never happned, wouldve the citadel expanded FAR beyond pharloom, maybe all the way to hallownest (we can clearly se ALOT of silk spools in the hidden station and deepnest

[twin dragon]

It's weaver or spider silk

[sick tinsel]

its still useful

[twin dragon]

And the citadel is in a vicious cycle to prevent gms from waking up

Their religion is also something that could halt their progress

[sick tinsel]

but they cared alot about expanding

[twin dragon]

did they?

[sick tinsel]

yea

[floral quiver]

They expanded entirely to build the Citadel into a massive music box

[frosty lily]

Would it fit with the lore to make a Crow mother? ( i can't post an image but i am drawing one)

[floral quiver]

Not for more traditional expansion reasons

[sick tinsel]

not only that but the more of bugs that gets brainwashed into the religion the safer it is to keep grandmother silk trapped

[floral quiver]

Not if their automation plan works