sk-lore

[floral quiver]

No. My assumption is "Bugs have sapience outside the Pale King, thus his claims of giving sapience are suspect. Especially considering him giving sapience would be very useful in building a kingdom from nothing because bugs would be grateful."

I dont trust the monarch who comes in and builds a kingdom and wants it to last forever.

[whole holly]

i still have this question? how can we verify that bugs have been uplifted?

[sinful nimbus]

Why does that make the claim suspicious

That's just not logical

You can give people something other people already have

[dull moss]

It was useful in making bugs grateful. That’s why he did it

[marble oasis]

You’re missing the fact that the bugs in question would fucking know if it was a lie or not

[glacial warren]

Infection less reverses the effects of the King specifically and moreso kills Bugs as Radiance backdoors into their minds, and then re-animates the resulting corpse, making them go utterly feral as they feel her rage and hatred for themselves.

[whole holly]

with infection going on in HK how do we know bugs who have been uplifted, can we identify them, "Theirs is a different kind of unity. Rejection of the Wyrm's attempt at order.
I resist the light's allure. Union it may offer, but also a mind bereft of thought... To instinct alone a bug is reduced...Hrrm... "

[floral quiver]

No they wouldn't. That's the whole point of propaganda. To make people believe untruths.

[whole holly]

"I resist the light's allure. Union it may offer, but also a mind bereft of thought... To instinct alone a bug is reduced...Hrrm... " if infection reverses the effects of beacon, how can we verify if bug is uplifted?

[sinful nimbus]

By the fact that they built a civilization

Animals can't do that

They also don't write in journals or whatever

[marble oasis]

Bossman told me he gave me a brain but I remember the time before he came here so how’s that work then

[glacial warren]

Again it does not reverse specifically the King’s effects. Radiance can hijack any mind so long as a creature has some form of mental presence.

[whole holly]

we can't make distinction who built what anyways, sapience existed regardless of beacon so what now, but how can we tell now, that's my point

[whole holly]

"but also a mind bereft of thought... To instinct alone a bug is reduced" isn't opposite of Mind Expanding beacon?

[whole holly]

do rest of you guys agree with this??

[sinful nimbus]

I agree

The infection and the beacon are repeatedly contrasted

[marble oasis]

Like “I actually created the whole world” would probably be an easier sell to the first citizens

[glacial warren]

Every Bug was afflicted, not just the King’s Higher Beings. The Mantises who embraced it willingly, the Mosskin, the Weavers, the Mushrooms, even just the tiny feral Bugs who wandered the outer edges of the land were not protected from it.

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't really change the fact that we see multiple examples of uplifted bugs and bugs who lost their expanded mind after leaving Hallownest

[whole holly]

but infection doesn't reverse effects of beacon...?

[sinful nimbus]

It does

To an extent

[glacial warren]

It does not. It applies to everything with a mind.

[sinful nimbus]

Bugs still retain a bit of their old minds

[whole holly]

why did you agree to question said it doesn't?

[sinful nimbus]

I agree that it reverses the beacons effects to some extent I mean

[dull moss]

Moss Prophet even believes the Infection will lead to the rebirth of Hallownest

Oooohhh radiant being, we are blessed. Your rays touch us. Your warmth fills us.
Hallownest is born again, united in your blazing image. Oohhh...

[whole holly]

it can reduce sapience, even if amount of sapience is low

[glacial warren]

The Infection isn’t specifically a ‘counter’ to the King’s influence, it contaminates any creature with an ability to think and feel. Even artificial constructs like the Jellyforms were not immune.

[floral quiver]

The people who would remember are dead. Basically all of Hallownest's history is subjective beyond some very basic things.

How the King actually came to rule is one of those subjective things because anyone who would know is dead or inherently untrustworthy because talking themselves up is what kings do.

The Pale King and his loyal retainers and his wife are inherently untrustworthy when it comes to their kingdom and its history because they have a vested interest in seeing it in the best light possible.

[sinful nimbus]

The analogy mask maker seems to use is actually the infection (mask) obscuring the beacon/original mind (the face) however

Do you not trust Seer

tf did she do

[whole holly]

bardoon disagrees : For quiet retreat did I climb up here, away from spitting creatures. Ormmph... Yes. High up. Away from simple minds, lost to light.

Theirs is a different kind of unity. Rejection of the Wyrm's attempt at order.
I resist the light's allure. Union it may offer, but also a** mind bereft of thought... To instinct alone a bug is reduced...Hrrm...**

[sinful nimbus]

Why is TC putting in a bunch of exposition dumping NPCs/tablets which repeatedly lie to the player

[whole holly]

so we can argue for hours on end, duhh

[sinful nimbus]

Like you kinda have to assume they are interested in coherent and well written storytelling which this isn't by any means

[glacial warren]

Again it does not specifically counter the King’s power. Its affect on a mind is a unanimous influence that applies to all living creatures, and even many dead creatures are not safe from being mentally intruded upon and overridden by the angry goddess.

[sinful nimbus]

"Everything which disagrees with me is actually an in universe lie"

You can do this with everything

[whole holly]

somebody is with infection not reversing beacon

[floral quiver]

Because the histories of kingdoms are built on biases not truth.

What Hallownest was is different depending on who you talk to.

[sinful nimbus]

Well except the personal tablet in which the Pale King also claims to expand minds but you hand waved that away too

[dull moss]

All NPCs are actually professional gaslighters working to mislead the player

[sinful nimbus]

Word salad

[marble oasis]

I still don’t get how you think “Idk” is a more satisfactory explanation for how the cliffs bugs died

[whole holly]

just because infection is universal doesn't mean it doesn't reverse beacon, that's not how it works

[sinful nimbus]

There is legit zero reason to doubt any of these claims other than not liking the Pale King

[whole holly]

or you know, be frustrated with them unreliable lore tablets, more like myth tablets

[floral quiver]

Because that's all I have. There isn't a definite answer.

[sinful nimbus]

They're unreliable in the sense that they communicate the idea that Hallownest is the last kingdom but the game makes that very clear

[glacial warren]

It does not reverse the King’s influence so much as it is a complete override of the Bug’s sense of self and individuality. Their thoughts become Radiance’s thoughts, and their emotions are overridden by her hatred and rage.

[sinful nimbus]

Ozymandias type beat

[marble oasis]

There is but you don’t like it

[whole holly]

what do you guys think about this? are you guys on zeros side that infection doesn't reverse beacon?

[marble oasis]

This coming from the very same tablet he calls radiance his kin btw

Why the fuck would he admit that if he wanted to look good

[sinful nimbus]

Also talking about the top secret vessel project

[glacial warren]

It’s less a reversal and moreso Radiance overrides them. They become extensions of her.

[sinful nimbus]

The only explanation given was that he was lying to himself, really?

[whole holly]

no blazing kin means no citizen/kin of mine is going to experience blazing light's disease

[sinful nimbus]

Which relies on the assumption that its a lie in the first place despite there being no evidence of that being the case

[whole holly]

overriding effects are total opposite of beacon's effect, thus reversing it, i don't think many agree with you on this, even bardoon disagrees

[floral quiver]

Well yeah. I don't.

I think it takes the monarch of an expansivist and imperialist state that actively did imperialistic things at his word. I don't take imperialist rulers claims at their word.

[marble oasis]

The citizens are absolutely not his kin

[glacial warren]

Well. Believe what you want to believe, I suppose.

[whole holly]

i believe in what bardoon says

[marble oasis]

I feel like it would probably be knowledge that THK was his child

[glacial warren]

I presented the facts as they stood and the truth was rejected, so. Not much point in continuing.

[marble oasis]

Just not the extent of the project

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah THK was well known

[marble oasis]

As his child though I wonder

[sinful nimbus]

Other vessels and presumably the fact that they were his progeny was a secret (even to the great knights)

Except to uhhh Mask Maker

[whole holly]

i mean weren't you guys saying that he expanded minds of bugs and even royal retainers believed Pale King created them too, so not really unwarranted to play into creator/father belief himself

[whole holly]

Bardoon proves your "facts" wrong...

[marble oasis]

God != father

[glacial warren]

How so? No one says the Infection, specifically, reverses the King’s effects.

[marble oasis]

And NH but he’s not a citizen

[glacial warren]

It just more or less is a total wipe of that Bug’s mind as Radiance takes over and makes them an extension of herself.

[whole holly]

what do you think Light's allure means? it is infection : "For quiet retreat did I climb up here, away from spitting creatures. Ormmph... Yes. High up. Away from simple minds, lost to light.

Theirs is a different kind of unity. Rejection of the Wyrm's attempt at order.
I resist the light's allure. Union it may offer, but also a mind bereft of thought... To instinct alone a bug is reduced...Hrrm... ", Infection reduces mind, beacon expands it, effects are stated to be reverse, quite literally

[glacial warren]

Exactly. You’ve just proven me correct.

[whole holly]

Light = reduce, Beacon = Expand, Reduce is reverse of Expand

[glacial warren]

Infection does not reverse a mind, but unifies it. They’re not made dumber, they’re assimilated, becoming extensions of Radiance’s will.

It’s as I said, the Infection operates by basically superimposing Radiance’s mental willpower over that of the victim/host, causing them to lose their sense of self and become extensions of her.

[whole holly]

they are made dumber: "but also a mind bereft of thought..." how do you interpret this? or this "To instinct alone a bug is reduced...Hrrm... "

[glacial warren]

They’re bereft of thought because their thoughts are no longer their own. Their thoughts become Radiance’s thoughts. They’re reduced to Radiance’s base instincts, which at this point consists solely of rage and hatred. Sheer, utter hostility towards anything not already part of her.

In fact, Dream Nailing Myla further confirms this as being what happens. You can see Radiance’s thoughts beginning to superimpose over Myla’s own as she’s being assimilated into the collective.

[whole holly]

bardoon state that bug's mind is reduced is Addition to being united

[marble oasis]

Untrue

[whole holly]

thank you

[marble oasis]

Almost every infected bug’s thoughts is like IT FUCKING BURNS OH GOD IT HURTS

[floral quiver]

Yeah thats an odd opinion even to me

[glacial warren]

Well yes they experience pain but also ‘KILL THE EMPTY ONE.’

[floral quiver]

And you know my odd opinions 😆

[marble oasis]

Boy do I

[whole holly]

no opinion is odd here, they are just opinions ,some hold less weight than others but still

[glacial warren]

Like some sliver of their conscience is there experiences agony of Radiance overriding them, but in the end their mind and body have ceased being their own.

[marble oasis]

yeah

but the part about being reduced to Radiance’s base instincts isn’t true either

[whole holly]

bardoon literally says that bugs get dumber in addition to their minds being united in infection hivemind, not because of loss of self

he says "But also"

[glacial warren]

It is. They lash out to anything uninfected on-sight.

[marble oasis]

You have brave husks, cowardly husks, etc in the city

[slender hare]

that could just be bardoon’s understanding of it though?

[whole holly]

he is most reliable narrator that i can even think of

[slender hare]

he’s not all knowing. it’s good to get his perspective, like how he’s perceiving it, but ultimately unreliable

[marble oasis]

You have bugs who punch and bugs who throw things and bugs who flee etc

[slender hare]

he’s an important piece, but i don’t think the end all be all

[whole holly]

unreliable? how so?

[slender hare]

not unreliable like he’s lying, unreliable as in he’s not all knowing

[marble oasis]

You actually can’t trust anyone in this game

If anyone makes a statement we take the opposite

[whole holly]

lol

[floral quiver]

You have bugs who still march patrol routes.

[glacial warren]

Ye but they all ultimately share the same traits. Trying to kill and assimilate any life they find not already assimilated. The Cowardly Husk is a unique exception.

[slender hare]

he himself isn’t infected and doesn’t know the radiance so he could just be perceiving their behavior as “lesser” thought

not to say that interpretation is wrong! but just that bardoon’s words shouldn’t be taken as absolute fact

[glacial warren]

Although the Cowardly Husk kind of flips between sometimes fleeing from you and sometimes charging at you to attack, so it’s sort of a coin flip on whether its instinct of fear overpowers Radiance’s instinct of ‘commence slaughter.’

[whole holly]

He senses our nature when we acquire void heart, he could also sense infection, he is intended to be reliable narrator

[slender hare]

hmmm i agree to that

[dull moss]

Bugs definitely do become more thoughtless as the Infection worsens. See for example Myla’s dialogue

[slender hare]

whether it be that they’re dumber or now just a hive mind or just slaves to their instincts, the end result is the same anyway

they’re being dominated by the radiance within their mind no matter what

[glacial warren]

Less ‘thoughtless’ and moreso Radiance’s will overrides and superimposes itself over theirs, until all that’s left is them being in an unending state of agony and rage.

[whole holly]

Not really, No, at least not according to Bardoon’s dialogue

[glacial warren]

Like as Myla progresses, her thoughts are being more and more intercepted by blocks of Radiance’s dialogue.

[whole holly]

He literally says mind is reduced

Idk what else to say when facts are ignored

[glacial warren]

He’s not Omniscient, lad. You shouldn’t treat what he says as a be-all end-all of irrefutable fact.

[whole holly]

Mind bereft of though is fact

[marble oasis]

Except they’re not totally bereft of thought

[marble oasis]

.

[glacial warren]

Again Myla’s Dream Nail dialogue more clearly shows what happens to a Bug succumbing to the Infection. It’s not a reduction of intellect so much as it’s an angry goddess barging into their heads and superimposing her will over theirs until she blots them out.

[whole holly]

And you are?

[glacial warren]

Nope. Just a guy with a very intricate knowledge of Lore.

[whole holly]

I mean he might have meant that in relative sense

[whole holly]

More than Bardoon clearly

[dull moss]

I don’t see the difference. At the extreme stages of the Infection a bug’s mind is almost totally gone because of the Radiance’s influence

[glacial warren]

Exactly. Bardoon’s information still isn’t 100% accurate. He’s still only going off of what he’s seen, externally, the Infection does.

[glacial warren]

Gone, yes, because hers replaces it. They become extensions of her.

[whole holly]

He can sense internal nature as evidenced with void heart

[marble oasis]

Bereft means to completely lack not just to have less of

[dull moss]

So they are in fact mindless. What are you arguing for?

[whole holly]

Could be a hyperbole/exaggerated but still accurate

[marble oasis]

maybe

[slender hare]

my question too. i don’t get what the distinction we’re trying to make is

[glacial warren]

But he can’t peer into things’ thoughts like the Knight can. We’ve seen what being Infected truly entails.

[marble oasis]

I guess it fucking hurts is a “thought” that a non-sapient creature would still have

[whole holly]

We are trying to conclude if infections effects reverse beacon

[glacial warren]

Nika argues that Infected bugs suffer a loss of intellect. I argue that it’s less a reduction of what’s there and moreso Radiance superimposing herself over it as she assimilates them.

[whole holly]

Instinct based reactions

[dull moss]

...Light...Danger...
...Safe...Dark...

[whole holly]

So intellectual wow

[marble oasis]

these are literally thoughts that a sea snail would have

[whole holly]

This is less intelligent than radiance

[marble oasis]

this was the driving motivation behind the development of the eye

[dull moss]

Yes, exactly. I wasn’t disagreeing

[whole holly]

Certainly not equal

[marble oasis]

ah alright

[worn stone]

but arent there a handful of bugs that are infected that have intellectual thoughts, like the moss knight waitiing for unn and hearing her call?

[glacial warren]

Well yes it’s not 100% Infected yet. The stare of what amount a Bug’s self is assimilated seems to vary from case to case. The Bugs in Infected Crossroads have progressed to the point that they’re basically extensions of her.

[swift needle]

Infected bugs don't lose sentience entirely imo there js being brainwashed

[whole holly]

It seems to defend on stages

[glacial warren]

It might also be because Radiance’s influence is being muffled by her containment inside the Hollow Knight and the Dreamer’s Seals on top of that.

So the assimilation isn’t 100% accurate yet.

[slender hare]

i think this person is onto something with this argument in general. the beacon of intellect thing that higher beings supposedly give lesser bugs may not even be a thing, or at the very least is greatly exaggerated

[dull moss]

Yeah. It starts as dreams and then thoughts of light start becoming more and more omnipresent

[swift needle]

FREE AT LAST

[glacial warren]

She can’t utterly and totally superimpose herself over them just yet, but she can still override enough that they react with hostility to anything not Infected.

[dull moss]

How did Godseeker follow something that doesn’t exist?

[whole holly]

Some infected bugs thought are less intelligent that radiances , which wouldn’t be case with her imposing her will

[slender hare]

the gods certainly are giving off an energy, but that energy doesn’t necessarily mean it’s giving lesser bugs higher thought

[glacial warren]

Depends on how much original intellect the host had before she backdoors into their heads.

[slender hare]

the mantis tribe don’t worship any higher being but they were intelligent anyway

[swift needle]

I think the intelligence thingy is a characteristic only wyrms have

[whole holly]

We know that it wasn’t universal

He only gave some bugs intellect

[slender hare]

then i would say that there’s an argument that it doesn’t exist at all, rather it was used as a way to future deify the pale king

[dull moss]

GMS verifiably has the ability

[slender hare]

like how irl, civilizations emerge from collective religion. this doesn’t prove the religion correct, but that people gather and grow from the faith itself

[glacial warren]

But we see direct evidence of the King having elevated Bugs. The City of Tears, the advanced technology in the Peaks.

[slender hare]

like i said above, this doesn’t prove that the pale king gave it directly. it very well could be the bugs evolving on their own, with something to follow and believe in

[swift needle]

The civilization before the king was prolly like a cult with the radiance being the centre

[glacial warren]

He’s not just a King or a Prophet, he’s a God.

[slender hare]

they were the moth tribe, i don’t really see that as cult like

[swift needle]

True

[slender hare]

“higher being” “pale being”, which we know very little of what that even means

[dull moss]

There’s no proof that divinity is a real thing

[swift needle]

HIGHER being

[slender hare]

is the void a god? unn?

[whole holly]

Infected bugs are clearly less intelligent than Beacon Bugs

[glacial warren]

It essentially translation for him being a Deity, in terms of species.

[swift needle]

Beacon bug sounds cool

[glacial warren]

Void is not a God. Unn is.

[whole holly]

God just means being with power at least to godseekers

[slender hare]

but what is a god?

[worn stone]

dang i didnt know massive moss charger is a god

[dull moss]

Godhood is socially constructed by bugs

[slender hare]

so the void wouldn’t be a god? even though the pale king saw it as all powerful? and he was inevitably defeated by it?

[slender hare]

yes! that’s my point

[glacial warren]

Currently confirmed Deities: Pale King, Radiance, Unn, White Lady, the Nightmare Heart, whatever entity the Lifeblood stems from, and the Grand Mother Silk.

[swift needle]

Something which has the capability to forge civilizations by themselves i guess

[floral quiver]

The maggot who started wearing the Armor of one of the Knight's is a god to the Godseeker

That says things about her interpretation of divinity

[whole holly]

Lifeblood Creature is sadly not confirmed

[swift needle]

How did WE forget massive moss charger

[dull moss]

These are Higher Beings, not necessarily gods

[slender hare]

yes, which doesn’t confirm that they have the power to grant intellect. just influence bugs to grow as a civilization, like irl religion does

[whole holly]

Well they were desperate for god

[glacial warren]

They are Deities in terms of species. They’re Gods/Goddesses in the full sense.

[slender hare]

you speak so definitively, but there’s nowhere in the game that specifically groups all these higher beings together cohesively. it’s all vibes

[dull moss]

No. They’re great beings which construct religions around themselves

[whole holly]

Thank you

[swift needle]

They are certainly higher than the common bug tho and all we know is that they are the "gods"of the hk universe

[floral quiver]

They are moths spiders and Wyrms in terms of species

[glacial warren]

Well yes that’s what a Deity is.

[slender hare]

you’re working on your own definition and understanding and treat it as if it’s said in the game. it’s not. that’s where the disconnect is here

[glacial warren]

I speak because I am using the most literal definition.

[slender hare]

that’s not proof or confirmation. that’s your own understanding and biases

[glacial warren]

I don’t really know how to put it in simpler terms than I already have.

[glacial warren]

It isn’t. I am using the most direct, literal, universal definition I can manage.

[slender hare]

oh no i understand plainly what you mean. but understand that it’s your own interpretation

[swift needle]

We base the word god in our terms which is a literal GOD of something which has complete control over it.Maybe in the hk universe god simply means a higher being?

[glacial warren]

You very obviously don’t.

[slender hare]

i understand what you mean by a deity. but is that how the game is using it? there is more than one way to interpret “higher being”

[dull moss]

No we don’t. That’s a very reductive definition of god which excludes many beings worshipped irl

[slender hare]

being the most “literal” doesn’t mean correct.

[glacial warren]

I am not going off of my interpretation or my bias. I am going off of what information the game itself presents to us as a whole.

[slender hare]

i mean, you’re not. the game doesn’t explicitly say any of what you’re positing

[glacial warren]

That is how the game is using it. It’s kind of impossible to miss.

[swift needle]

I was tryna say smthing like a Greek god or smthing

[whole holly]

Game presents us that Father of the Flame is a god

[glacial warren]

Have you perhaps tried to read the context clues present? There’s kind of a lot of them.

[glacial warren]

Yes.

[whole holly]

But it’s not a higher being

[slender hare]

you’re coming to a westernized conclusion of deity

[floral quiver]

They have. they just disagree with you on the interpretation

[glacial warren]

Not fully ascended, but a God nonetheless.

[glacial warren]

I’m just coming to a logical conclusion of Deity.

[whole holly]

Higher being and god isn’t same

[glacial warren]

They clearly have not if they keep pretending it doesn’t exist.

[dull moss]

What is ascension in Hollow Knight lore?

[slender hare]

the logical conclusion of deity varies across so many cultures. which culture is apparently the most logical to you?

[swift needle]

Going from one state of bug to another like the weavers

[worn stone]

also the whole point of silksong is to show even tho the weavers are worshiped like deities where pilgrims will carry effigies with them and later revealed that the weavers are simply just manipulating the masses and using religion as a tool to control. like the term deity, higher beings, etc. are used quite loosely in the game

[slender hare]

yes! exactly!

[whole holly]

Team Cherry is trying to be as vague as possible, he speaks about lore like he wrote it

[glacial warren]

Ascension is a being transcending into a full Deific state, essentially becoming a being like the Wyrm/Root/Radiance/Et cetera.

[slender hare]

i absolutely agree!

[dull moss]

Weavers are not Higher Beings but worshipped as gods nonetheless

[floral quiver]

Mhm

[swift needle]

Ya

The void was worshipped by the AC right?

[whole holly]

Yea

[worn stone]

i would also argue the father of flames is not a higher being but worshipped like a god nonetheless. i think there is so many stuff in pharloom like that. i think thats the beauty of the game to show how easy the bugs can be manipulated

[glacial warren]

The Void is a unique case, given its power transcends Godhood. It is to the Gods what the Gods are to mortal Bugs.

[floral quiver]

Well if we take the name of their effigies in the files, more like saints with specific purview than gods

[whole holly]

Exactly

[slender hare]

so it’s not so logical if it has caveats?

[dull moss]

Higher Being, sure. But the existence of a “Deific state” is not proven in Hollow Knight

[swift needle]

God of gods

[glacial warren]

Have you perchance seen the Radiance? Or the White Lady? Or the Nightmare Heart?

[swift needle]

So the void is a force similar to dream essence and soul right

[whole holly]

Yes

[dull moss]

Eh, the line is blurry. But you’re right

[slender hare]

there is no one definition of deity even within the games themselves. you yourself just said that the void is unique. that’s the point.

[whole holly]

Grey Prince Zote is ascended but not a higher being

[glacial warren]

The Void is not a deity, which is what makes it unique. It predates the Gods and transcends them.

[slender hare]

but it’s powerful, pulls bugs into its thrall, and grants power in some way

[glacial warren]

He’s not an ascended figure, but a thought construct conjured by Bretta.

[swift needle]

Where the AC worshipping the idea of void or where they worshipping smthing which represented void

[whole holly]

Which proves there is no universal logic that applies to gods or higher beings

[swift needle]

Like the shade lord

[slender hare]

yes!!

[glacial warren]

It’s still not a God. The Void is something older than that, more Primordial.

[floral quiver]

Personal interpretation

[dull moss]

Them being worshipped/venerated does not prove the existence of divinity

[glacial warren]

No, facts.

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/son-im-crine-son-im-crine-gif-5176045023480767429

[floral quiver]

No quite literally personal interpretation

[slender hare]

literally

[whole holly]

Definition of god is being with power, void is exactly that although it is not a higher being by itself

[glacial warren]

No no, you don’t grasp what I am saying here. The Void is beyond Godhood or any relation to it. It is something the divine forces in the Hollow Knight world openly dread and are wary of.

[slender hare]

faith in the divine isn’t factual irl. how would you apply real world “facts” to this game when there isn’t even one irl?

[floral quiver]

Personal interpretation again

[glacial warren]

Well. Keep clinging to your denial, I suppose. Nothing I can do to stop you.

[marble oasis]

Only the light based ones

Unn don’t gaf ‼️

[whole holly]

You are only one denying, though

[slender hare]

very good point!!

[swift needle]

That's what I was tryna say earlier since you can't apply the meaning of "god" in real life into a fictitious world like hk

[dull moss]

Beings of light like PK can suppress the void just fine. How’s that beyond Godhood?

[glacial warren]

In small pieces, yes.

[slender hare]

is the pale flower a deity since it can repel void?

[dull moss]

Lighthouse

[swift needle]

Light

[glacial warren]

The full entity, Void Given Focus, is a force nothing is able to match or oppose. It pubstomped the Radiance with no effort whatsoever.

[slender hare]

yet it’s completely suppressed by the pale flower

[swift needle]

That's js a vessel🥺

[marble oasis]

its not like innately more powerful it’s more ancient, unknowable, and with infinite potential

[whole holly]

Point is that irl logic doesn’t apply to hk world

[marble oasis]

its primordial Chaos

[floral quiver]

That the Void can kill powerful things doesnt make it beyond gods in some metaphysical way.

It's just something that can hurt them.

A rock can hurt me but it's not "beyond" me

[slender hare]

yes. point being that there is no one definition of deity

[glacial warren]

It hadn’t escaped the Godseeker’s mind yet, likely why it was able to be contained. Though there’s no guarantee that prison will hold forever.

[glacial warren]

There’s no one definition of a Deity, but there are Deities present in these games.

Beings like the Wyrm, the Root, the Nightmare Heart, are very clearly beyond just an ordinary Bug.

[floral quiver]

There are beings that claim or are claimed to be divine.

[whole holly]

There is no definition of deity in hk game either

[slender hare]

well duh. the point is that there is no one power structure that ties these deities together, thus we can’t definitively say that they can do things like grant higher thought

[floral quiver]

That doesnt mean its true

[glacial warren]

They’re similar in terms of presence and magnitude, and they do on some level seem cognizant of each other’s existences.

[swift needle]

Something which comes close to a definition is a old heart which is still mortal

[glacial warren]

And yet the game proves you wrong, again. What a surprise.

[dull moss]

They are deities in game in the sense that they are the center of a religion. That doesn’t grant divine powers though

[slender hare]

yes. that’s not the argument though. the argument is if they have the power to grant higher thought at all.

[glacial warren]

You literally see them wielding large-scale Magics and incredible feats of power.

[whole holly]

It doesn’t, higher beings are completely different from each other

[slender hare]

the title of “divine” doesn’t actually prove any sort of power to “grant higher thought”

[swift needle]

Is father of the flame a god vro💔

[worn stone]

what feats?

to lie?

[dull moss]

Not because of their perceived divinity, but because of their existence as Higher Beings

[floral quiver]

That a being can know the existence of other powerful beings doesnt mean they're divine or have a hierarchy

[glacial warren]

It depends from Deity to Deity. Giving higher intellect and ingenuity to Bugs is a talent specific to the ‘Pale’ Deities: The Root, the Wyrm, and the Grand Mother Silk.

[dull moss]

You just made that up

[swift needle]

The root?

[whole holly]

Root never did such a thing

[swift needle]

Huh

[slender hare]

but it’s not a proven fact that they gave these bugs higher thought

[slender hare]

they just say they did. and that could just be religious propaganda

[worn stone]

when did the root ever give anybody more intelligence?

[swift needle]

WHEN did white lady do ts

[glacial warren]

The City of Tears and Crystal Peaks would have a word with you.

[slender hare]

??

[floral quiver]

A city and a mine?

[dull moss]

GMS transforms bugs on screen

[worn stone]

names locations but doesnt give proper explanations

[swift needle]

What does this even mean💔

[floral quiver]

Those dont need divine potency to build

[glacial warren]

They are proof the King did, in fact, elevate certain Bugs into his ‘Higher Beings’. All the complex machinery, the full-on mining golems.

[floral quiver]

Theyre buildings and holes in the ground

[worn stone]

bilewater and mossy grotto has a word with you too

[floral quiver]

No they arent.

Theyre buildings and big holes

[swift needle]

I mean that's um at the start of the game🥺

[floral quiver]

Anyone can build buildings and dig big holes

[glacial warren]

Mining Golems.

[slender hare]

not proof at all. i argue that just him as a being to believe in helped the bugs organize and grow as a civilization. yknow, like irl humans did

[midnight reef]

Those lore tablets seem to use "Higher Beings" in a different context to how its generally used in discussion

[floral quiver]

Anyone can build big robots too.

[midnight reef]

To those tablets, "Higher Beings" refers to bugs with a mind

[floral quiver]

The Citadel built big robots and they're bugs

[glacial warren]

Yes but the Wyrm is not a standard Bug. He’s a God.

[midnight reef]

For the rest of the game, "Higher Beings" refer to gods, beings like GMS, The Pale King, White Lady, and Radience

[slender hare]

yes, but that doesn’t inherently give it the power to give bugs intellect

you’re using circular logic here

[glacial warren]

He didn’t just help them along, he gifted many of them a heightened state of logic and critical thinking, which appears to be his niche of ‘elevation’ as a Pale Being.

[whole holly]

I have to go you guys

[worn stone]

take care nika

[slender hare]

there is no concrete proof of this

[floral quiver]

Personal interpretation the third

[swift needle]

Cya

[slender hare]

like it’s getting crazy

[glacial warren]

Again, the world you step into within Hallownest is all the evidence proving this wrong.

[floral quiver]

No it isnt

[slender hare]

lol are we doing creationism in hollow knight? i’m dead

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/an-iq-too-high-raven-crow-tiktok-gif-3869671553367641450

[glacial warren]

Common Bugs couldn’t have done all this complex mechanical wizardry by themselves.

[slender hare]

the world existed before the pale king molted and became the pale king

[worn stone]

why not???

[slender hare]

there were thriving civilizations before him

[dull moss]

Unn and Radiance created lifeforms

[floral quiver]

They did in Pharloom

Hallownest bugs are weak and stupid

[sinful nimbus]

No one was claiming otherwise afaik

[glacial warren]

Yes but none to the mechanical extent we see in the City of Tears and the Peaks. Hell, he even helped them invent the Tramways.

[floral quiver]

Prove it.

[slender hare]

i bring it up because it gives less credence to pale king giving higher though to hallownest

[glacial warren]

The proof lies in the architecture, the scale of it.

[sinful nimbus]

non sequitur

[swift needle]

Under works,high halls,deep docks,the entire citadel etc

[floral quiver]

Bugs built the Citadel which is grander than the King's hovel

[glacial warren]

The mechanical complexity here is far too in depth and complex and intricate to have been performed by Bugs before the King gave them his intelligence buff.

[dull moss]

The Cogwork Core is technologically beyond anything in Hallownest

[slender hare]

it’s pretty relevant bc if plenty of other bugs had higher thought with no deity, then the bugs before pale king didn’t get it from him

[floral quiver]

Prove it

[swift needle]

Ancient civilization 💔

[glacial warren]

Not really? It’s mostly just robots powered by the souls of dead Bugs.

[sinful nimbus]

You can give something to a group of people that do not have it while there are other groups of people who do

Think of how GMS uplifted the weavers from Pharlids to Weavers without altering the ENTIRE region of Pharloom

[swift needle]

SON🥺

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway to reiterate since this convo has been going on for a while, we have an example in the howling cliffs of a bug losing sapience after leaving the kingdom so what the Pale King says is demonstrably true (although there was no reason to doubt him in the first place)

[floral quiver]

It's a mechanical music box the size of a mountain

[swift needle]

COG work CORE

[glacial warren]

Ah ye also this.

[dull moss]

You’re right. It can’t compete with the advanced art of moving a cabin on a track

[sinful nimbus]

This is how silkflies work yea

[swift needle]

THERE ARE LIKE MULTIPLE BIG ROBOTS

[worn stone]

thats wild to say, when the citadel has robots doinging engineering work. we got bugs making bugs to make bug

[slender hare]

but quirell kept his intellect after he left

[sinful nimbus]

All the robots are powered by silkflies though

[floral quiver]

Your point?

[sinful nimbus]

He's protected by a magical mask but even then he loses all his memory

[floral quiver]

They have a power source and cpu

[glacial warren]

It’s implied Monomon’s Mask protected him, due to the enchantment she placed upon it, as part of her failsafe backup.

[slender hare]

monomon isn’t a higher being

[sinful nimbus]

Those are the souls of bugs

[floral quiver]

So?

[sinful nimbus]

I don't fully agree with ZeroTwo's argument but that detail is true

[floral quiver]

That somehow makes them less advanced?

[swift needle]

It still takes a brain to create a hulking robotic hulkbuster tho

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not trying to make a point

I'm just pointing out that that observation was correct

They are in fact powered by the souls of dead bugs

[floral quiver]

Yes.

[swift needle]

[floral quiver]

But that doesnt somehow make them unadvanced

[sinful nimbus]

Bro what

Hollow Knight fans can't read bruh

[floral quiver]

Which was zero's attempted point

[sinful nimbus]

Never said Monomon was a higher being never implied that either

[slender hare]

she’s not a higher being, the entire argument here is that higher beings grant higher thought

that’s the discussion??

[glacial warren]

Like the main thing is the Pale King did elevate certain Bugs into what he calls his ‘Higher Beings’, being the ‘civilized’ populace of the City of Tears and those we see in the Crossroads, though by the time we encounter them they’ve all died and been assimilated by the Infection.

[sinful nimbus]

GMS and PK do

[floral quiver]

That theyre "just" robots and unimpressive

[sinful nimbus]

I'm just arguing that PK does because that's disputed for some reason

[glacial warren]

The Pale King and the Grand Mother so far have proven to be able to ‘elevate’ Bugs, I agree entirely.

[floral quiver]

There's nothing that definitively proves this.

Definite is the key here

There's evidence but not definite proof

[slender hare]

exactly

[sinful nimbus]

If explicit text and a (formerly) living isn't proof then what is

[slender hare]

what’s the explicit proof

[sinful nimbus]

This feels like confirmation bias

[glacial warren]

There is. Quite a lot, if you look around. Again, the sheer scope and scale of the City, the Mines, the extremely advanced technology and architecture, the Dream Nail Dialogue from the corpse at the Cliffs.

[slender hare]

this is not explicit proof

[floral quiver]

Bugs can do that

As we see in the Citadel

[slender hare]

bc we see that pharloom is also capable of technological feats

[glacial warren]

Under tutelage of Elevated Bugs, yes. Bugs Elevated by a Pale Being.

[slender hare]

it doesn’t matter if you think it’s not as impressive as the tram, the point is that they did it anyway

[floral quiver]

Hallownes pales in comparison to the grandeur that is Pharloom

[swift needle]

Primary sources are often very biased and secondary sources are too vague to use as we see with the lore tablets built by the king himself so we don't really know if the pk DID elevate those bugs or was this js pure glazing himself

[floral quiver]

The Bugs built the Citadel on their own

[slender hare]

the engineering kept improving in leagues even well after the weavers left

[glacial warren]

Eh somewhat. By the opulence, yes. By the quality of its people? No.

[midnight reef]

I think at one point in its past Hallownest would've rivaled it

[dull moss]

GMS isn’t noted to be technologically gifted. The Weavers discovered those things on their own

[floral quiver]

By its scale and technologies

[midnight reef]

as it stands now, Hallownest is a tomb, and Pharloom is crumbling under the weight of its past

[glacial warren]

But the Weavers introduced it. They invented it.

[floral quiver]

Prove it

[slender hare]

but the pharloom bugs made it work infinitely better, without their help or influence

by the time hornet is there, they are at the point where they have automated the song, something the weavers literally fled to escape from

[glacial warren]

All i’m saying is every grand technological structure we’ve seen so far came from the result of a Pale Being elevating the minds of certain Bugs. The King did it with his citizens, and the Grand Mother did it with the Weavers.

[worn stone]

also just becuase these technologies are being built "under the tutelage" of a higher being doesnt mean the higher being granted intellegence to the bugs its more of a sign of the bugs being manipulated or forced to do so, i.e many bug workers in the underworks and deep docks, or the robot bugs being forced to make and continue the technology of the citadel, and so on. if anything "higher beings" have a pattern of lying or trying to give themselves an air of supority to manipulate more bugs into doing their bidding.

[slender hare]

“lesser” bugs can do these things without divine influence, hence why the argument that the pale king definitely gave them higher thought isn’t a strong one

[swift needle]

Thank you conductors

[midnight reef]

The Chourus are just an incredible feat of engineering- and the Weavers had to no involvment in their creation
they're clearly part of the Architects work, though I guess to be fair, the Architects are probably of Weaver make

[floral quiver]

Citadel make

[glacial warren]

In fact why are you all so opposed to the idea the Wyrm did what the Grand Mother did?

[slender hare]

yes! the only definitive thing is that these gods are influential over bugs, very much like how religion is influential to people irl. this is not proof of their power

it’s not proof that they got their intellect from PK

[glacial warren]

We’ve seen a Pale Being succeed at elevating Bugs, why would another falter in the same task?

[floral quiver]

Just because technology is lost doesnt make it right to proclaim some lost precursors did it

[swift needle]

We never said ts vro🥺

[slender hare]

this isn’t definitive proof. your interpretation, yes, but not explicitly said. that’s the point

[glacial warren]

Gadget and Persephone’s entire argument has hinged on this.

[slender hare]

not at all

[glacial warren]

Have you read your own posts for the last hour.

[swift needle]

It was about higher beings not this

[glacial warren]

Everything you’ve said has been in an effort to prove the King did not succeed at gifting intelligence to Bugs.

[dull moss]

There’s very strong evidence that PK made some bugs sapient with his beacon

[slender hare]

but not explicitly said in game

that’s the point

[dull moss]

Sure

[glacial warren]

Granted i’ve debunked all your points by now, as have other members of the chat, but hey! It’s your hill to die on.

[slender hare]

you haven’t, though

[glacial warren]

I just spent the last hour doing so.

[swift needle]

Glazing the pale king is why this heart still beats!!!

[floral quiver]

Evidence is not definite proof

Its evidence

[slender hare]

you have just shown that you just believe what the lore tablets left behind by PK himself as ultimate truth l

[floral quiver]

Which is our point

[slender hare]

as if that man didn’t shroud himself in lies and deceit in many other ways

[swift needle]

Well he is making an educated guess tho right

[slender hare]

yes and that’s fine, but he’s speaking as if it’s straight up fact

[glacial warren]

I’m not glazing him, i’m just going off of what the game presents to us. All evidence points to he on some level ‘elevated’ Bugs into a more complex form of intellectual ability due to him being a Pale Being.

[sinful nimbus]

I'm glazing him

[glacial warren]

It’s the same stunt we see the Grand Mother pull with the Pharlids.

[slender hare]

but there’s other points that contradict that these bugs needed PK to give them higher thought

[swift needle]

Ya as I said sometimes primary sources can be biased

[floral quiver]

By your personal interpretation. Not definite proof

[slender hare]

agree!

[sinful nimbus]

Not all bugs did but its pretty clear a lot of them do

[glacial warren]

No, there really isn’t.

[sinful nimbus]

Mantes are an example of bugs that don't the average husk is an example of ones that probably do

[floral quiver]

Pretty clear is not definite

[swift needle]

The hive didn't even need the pk to function tho am i right?

[glacial warren]

This is not my ‘interpretation’, this is me giving a logically sound deduction based on context clues from the game.

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it is

[slender hare]

yup, neither did the AC or the mantises

[floral quiver]

Thats what personal interpretation is

[sinful nimbus]

Something something HK fans can't read I'm tired boss that literally means its true 🥀

[glacial warren]

My source of information is Hollow Knight itself. You’re spitballing with nothing but an echo chamber of confirmation biases.

[slender hare]

you’re believing PK propaganda lol

[dull moss]

What do you say to this?

...Strong…
...No king… No mind… Release…
Master… my role… apart from you… apart from kin. It pains me so.

[floral quiver]

No. Definite is impossible to argue against. Literally said with no potential for interpretation

[sinful nimbus]

Its quite literally objective there is no other correct way to interpret the game and I know indie communities like to place a lot of emphasis on vague lore and personal interpretation which is neat and all but sometimes its quite literally just a story with real events that we can learn about

[random aspen]

dear... grim...

[glacial warren]

Not propaganda, no. There’s a lot about him that his people exaggerate, yes, but his power is not entirely mythologized.

[slender hare]

but the power to grant higher thought isn’t explicit, just stated by himself

[sinful nimbus]

That's explicit

[slender hare]

it’s not

[sinful nimbus]

No reason to doubt him

[slender hare]

there is, he lies

[sinful nimbus]

Unless you say start with the conclusion that he's untrustworthy but why?

Why would you doubt him the game never calls this into question

[floral quiver]

He's a monarch.

[sinful nimbus]

When

[sinful nimbus]

OK? So is Aragorn

[floral quiver]

I doubt the word of kings

[dull moss]

The dying thoughts of a dead bug in Cliffs are about their loss of mind

[glacial warren]

Actually why would he be untrustworthy? All we know is he’s a reclusive God-King who builds Void robots in his spare time.

[floral quiver]

And I wouldn't trust him either

[sinful nimbus]

Bruh what

[swift needle]

Zhou dynasty 💔

[slender hare]

most basic thing being that he shows himself as much bigger and grander than his real self, to grant this illusion of ultimate power to his subjects

[sinful nimbus]

OK but he writes this in his personal record and its demonstrated to be true with like an actual example you can see for yourself

[glacial warren]

No. His people do that to him. There’s not even any evidence he was aware of this occurring given his reclusive nature.

[floral quiver]

Aragorn is a king who has a vested interest in his own glory.

Id trust him as far as I could throw him

[sinful nimbus]

Its true that he's hubristic but that doesn't mean he's like outright maliciously lying lmao

[floral quiver]

Prove it

[sinful nimbus]

You're the ones claiming he's lying the burden of proof isn't on me

[slender hare]

now this is another “open to interpretation” thing. the statues and idols came from his court, were they not under his orders?

[glacial warren]

Like. The King just did what he could for his land and his people, but his existence is wildly speculative because so much of who and what he is was left to interpretation because no one ever saw him in person and could ask him for confirmation or denial on the rumor mill.

[dull moss]

I’d love an answer as to why this bug is losing their mind…

...Strong…
...No king… No mind… Release…
Master… my role… apart from you… apart from kin. It pains me so.

[sinful nimbus]

What is the last one from

I've never seen that ngl

[floral quiver]

That doesnt definitely say thats what's happening

[slender hare]

where is this said again?

[sinful nimbus]

king's idols? those are made by worshippers according to Lemm

[floral quiver]

The bug believes royal propaganda and died believing it

[dull moss]

Corpse in Howling Cliffs

[sinful nimbus]

Gadget what do you consider definitive

[slender hare]

oh yes

[sinful nimbus]

It really seems like there's like legit nothing that could convince you of this

[floral quiver]

Directly stated by a reliable source with no potential for bias or interpretation.

[glacial warren]

He’s a God, worship comes with the territory. But he’s a reclusive hermit so rather than doing things like social interaction, he had the Idols made so his people could worship him remotely without having to seek him out. He liked to keep to himself, from what we know of him. He was a very private man.

[swift needle]

White palace💔

[floral quiver]

I don't count the King as reliable

[dull moss]

Is this bug imagining it or what?

[slender hare]

oh no to be clear i’m not saying it’s impossible that PK granted higher thought. but i more personally lean towards that being propaganda to boost his image. to me, both of these interpretations are fine. but we shouldn’t take either of them as explicit fact

[sinful nimbus]

Why is the Pale King not considered reliable

He's a king yes but that's a common fantasy trope

There are good kings in fantasy even if that's not really accurate irl

[glacial warren]

Which is guarded by Void robots and a large array of traps fashioned into a gauntlet.

[slender hare]

he’s a monarch wanting an everlasting kingdom, he refused to admit weakness until his kingdom was already in ruin

[floral quiver]

Because he's a monarch with a vested interest in proclaiming his own glory

[glacial warren]

It’s clear the King did not want anyone bothering him.

[dull moss]

It’s strongly implied he did it to create a kingdom dependent on him

[swift needle]

The entire point of "no one ever saw him" is broken cuz of the kingsmoulds

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah and this manifests with him saying his kingdom is the last and only one in the world etc etc how does him claiming that he uplifted the bugs of the region (and believing it himself) play into this

[slender hare]

yes, but as i’ve said, he could achieve that by simply helping these bugs organize into a civilization via believing in him, without actually physically giving them higher thought

[glacial warren]

Well yes but those aren’t people.

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans can't read

[slender hare]

lore tablets aren’t literal gospel, funnily enough

[swift needle]

[spark valve]

exhibit a

[floral quiver]

And that's another reason he's untrustworthy.

It'a very convenient that he literally gave minds to his subjects and they cant leave ever.

[slender hare]

the concept of these tablets being unreliable narrators actually is very interesting for the story no?

[sinful nimbus]

Are physical corpses gospel

[dull moss]

Yeah, but boosting his image is not a stated goal. His goal is absolute dependence on him

[glacial warren]

The Kingsmoulds are artificial constructs lacking a mind or self, being essentially the prototypes for the Vessel project.

[slender hare]

guy reads smthn and goes “i guess bc it was written down it’s true” cmon man

[sinful nimbus]

If it was just a tablet and the Pale King was characterized as being more prone to actual disinformation I would agree

[swift needle]

Mossbag IS gospel

[sinful nimbus]

But he isn't and it isn't just a tablet

[spark valve]

you're deliberately ignoring the context of the tablet because you don't like it

[slender hare]

what’s the context?

[dull moss]

That’s the point. He made it that way on purpose

[sinful nimbus]

The full tablet is a personal record of his talking about the history of his kingdom and his dreams for an everlasting civilization

[floral quiver]

And I dont think so.

I think him granting sentience is grandstanding bullshit

[spark valve]

it's for himself

[sinful nimbus]

He also talks about Radiance and the vessels

[slender hare]

how do you figure?

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans don't play the game

[glacial warren]

Not that they can’t leave, but there’s essentially a warning that they’ll lose the mental upgrade he gave them if they go out of bounds of his kingdom.

[sinful nimbus]

Do you know where the tablet is

[slender hare]

i want to hear your thoughts

[sinful nimbus]

Its hidden in his throne room

[slender hare]

i’m not trying to get a gotcha, like i do want to hear your interpretations

[floral quiver]

Yes.

And I think he lied.

[dull moss]

We know the ability exists and the dying thoughts of a bug reveal that the range of the beacon is true

[spark valve]

pk's beacon is real cope and cry about it

[glacial warren]

He did not. A corpse at the Cliffs’s outer edge has Dream Dialogue pertaining to losing its mental self as it drew too close to the edge of the Kingdom.

[slender hare]

it doesn’t really prove that it’s real, but proves that the bug believed in it

[floral quiver]

It very much doesnt.

That bugs dying thoughts are majorly interpretive

[sinful nimbus]

The bug is dead

[slender hare]

so what i was saying of the whole PK’s influence as a power to believe in is the power, not physically giving them real life

[swift needle]

Something something ccmani video about runes cough cough beacon rune on lore tablet

[glacial warren]

My guess is the King either willfully ‘recalls’ his mental upgrade once a Bug crosses a certain threshold, or his ability might have some kind of range limitation in how far he can maintain its effects.

[spark valve]

ccmaci is like comically unreliable

[sinful nimbus]

You have a bug believing that its gonna lose its mind and its... right. It did actually do that

[floral quiver]

Prove that that bug lost his self considering that all dream nails are like that

[spark valve]

it's a range limitation shit is still happening after his death

[slender hare]

we don’t know if it lost its mind or simply died of exposure

[dull moss]

It’s a ranged effect as it persisted beyond his death

[floral quiver]

Prove it

[sinful nimbus]

That's just environmental storytelling man it comes right after the tablet telling you about bugs losing their minds and the beacon

[sinful nimbus]

Play the game? Its dead

[sinful nimbus]

Exposure to what

[plain ruin]

Isn't Boon proof that the Pale King expands minds?

[floral quiver]

Yes, and?

[slender hare]

we know it’s dead. we don’t know how explicitly it died

[sinful nimbus]

We have its own thoughts on how it died lmao

[glacial warren]

Ah yeah true. It seems to have outlived him.

[spark valve]

no

[slender hare]

it could have just believed that as it died of exposure, bc it had faith in the PK

[sinful nimbus]

Its only unknown how it died if you start with the conclusion that the beacon isn't real

[floral quiver]

No we dont. We have its thoughts as it died

[sinful nimbus]

Which is confirmation bias

[slender hare]

it doesn’t prove that it’s real. it just proves that the bug believed it

[sinful nimbus]

If you just take in the evidence as is we kno how it died

[slender hare]

someone believing in god doesn’t make god real

[floral quiver]

Yes. With your interpretation

[slender hare]

the bug believing PK gave it thought doesn’t make it true

[floral quiver]

Not hard facts

[dull moss]

Exposure to what. The Wastes are traversable

[sinful nimbus]

If you found my corpse charred and read my final thoughts about how god is gonna smoke me for not being a believer and this was a story where there's a poem about how god smokes down non believers right next to my corpse you'd probably believe in god though

[glacial warren]

Well. I don’t think it’s proof of how the Bug died. Others have left Hallownest and lost the mind buff without perishing, but it is proof that the King’s effect on minds is a real force that exists, though it is limited by range.

[spark valve]

also if this happened in a magic fantasy setting where that god did actually demonstrably exist

[slender hare]

not to all, for example the capital bugs are very weak

[slender hare]

existence of them doesn’t explicitly prove their powers

[sinful nimbus]

and he's stated by the developers to be godlike

Maybe PK didn't have any powers though

[glacial warren]

True. The King demonstrably exists, granted he is a reclusive hermit who’d rather build Void robots in his spare time than socialize.

[spark valve]

[floral quiver]

No?

[dire lynx]

and we've seen his kin do the same

[floral quiver]

I'd believe you believed so

[sinful nimbus]

When Powdered left he fractured into 3 new regulars

[spark valve]

but hollow knight fans can't read

[glacial warren]

This as well.

[sinful nimbus]

Dawg what

[limpid summit]

You wouldn’t?

[floral quiver]

But taking your dead word would be stupid

[sinful nimbus]

Zero capacity to understand inferences or media in general 😭

[dull moss]

Maybe the existence of PK is propaganda…
There’s no proof for him, only evidence 😆

[slender hare]

oh sure. doesn’t prove he gave higher thought tho

[floral quiver]

I understand inference. I just dont agree with yours

[spark valve]

yeah it's not like we see his direct offspring or corpse or anything those can't be proved to exist

[floral quiver]

My inference is different

[midnight reef]

Oh yeah

A really funny thing from the ACMI sketchbooks, lemme find it

[floral quiver]

Well we technically dont. We see it in a memory/dream

[limpid summit]

If you saw a corpse in a game with the note that said “Final journal entry. I hope God places an apple tree on my corpse when I die, as I have always believed would happen” and an apple tree was sprouting from it

[spark valve]

dawg this is obvious ragebait just ignore them

either it's ragebait or just firmly not worth engaging with

[limpid summit]

I just got here it hasn’t set in

I’m in an engaging mindset

[dull moss]

If a bug’s thoughts are apparently fake PK himself isn’t much of a leap 😆

[limpid summit]

Occam’s razor: PK has no powers and the howling cliffs corpse was just severely mentally ill

[spark valve]

all of hk takes place in a dream actually

[slender hare]

disagreement and heated discussion isn’t ragebait

[glacial warren]

I think it’s less ragebait and moreso they’ve built an echo chamber around each other. The two of them keep acting as enablers to their own confirmation bias and making a feedback loop of proving themselves ‘correct.’

[dull moss]

Have fun arguing folks, I’m going to bed. It’s super late

[midnight reef]

The page where Ari was doing work on The Green Prince/Cogwork Dancers
"Hornet-Hive Secret Room"
IDK if we're getting that still, but it seems like they've been planning to do the HK updates when they were actively working on Silksong before release

[glacial warren]

I’m probably also going to head out, as i’ve got gaming to commence.

[midnight reef]

If I had to guess, Daughter of Three Queens was decided on being Hornets "true" lore quite early onto Silksongs development

If it wasnt just the idea from the start

[limpid summit]

What does that even say

Grim imitation of the green prince’s (?)

Oh partner

[glacial warren]

The heck you mean true lore?

[slender hare]

i did have fun discussing this w yall, no hard feelings!!

[spark valve]

ancient partner

[midnight reef]

Back before Silksong released, Team Cherry only mentioned daughter of Three Queens as an idea they had in passing about Hornets lore
Silksong confirmed it to be the case

[glacial warren]

Ah yeah. I wouldn’t say it’s her ‘true’ lore, though. Just an extension of what we currently know.

[slender hare]

oh yes i remember reading abt this

[midnight reef]

I know me and Tammo ended up agreeing on Herrah not being a Weaver, and Hornet being raised mostly within Deepnest by the court there and the Weavers, but clearly Team Cherry had other ideas

(Not that I mind- I quite like Daughter of Three Queens)

[sinful nimbus]

RIP to the random guy who posted the funniest #hk-lore message and then got struck down by the cruel mods 😔

[slender hare]

LOLLL

[midnight reef]

The entire old heart lore in Silksong is so fucking weird though, especially when looking back at the 2021 map

[limpid summit]

Red memory doesn’t even have midwife

[spark valve]

retconsong strikes again

[midnight reef]

Because Khann and Karm were alive and well in the 2021 lore, Nyleth we dont know, though out've all the old hearts she is the last one to be added

The Green Prince was likely around, same with the Cogwork Dancers, but Grovehome was originally built over a Weaver Burial Spire

[spark valve]

seth's backstory got completely obliterated there were probably some rewrites

[limpid summit]

Tammo question

[midnight reef]

Which just confuses me

[random aspen]

what does seth even do

[midnight reef]

Seth defends the Shrine of Nyleth

[spark valve]

kills people for going to worship at the shrine they built to honor nyleth

[limpid summit]

Do you think “pale monarch’s will” in the Shaman dialogue refers to the GMS era rather than the Haunting

[midnight reef]

hence his title, Shrine Guardian Seth

[random aspen]

is that all

[spark valve]

what was the context

[random aspen]

yeah i played the game

[sinful nimbus]

He's kinda like that one guy at your local church who's job is to kill everyone visiting on Sunday

[limpid summit]

“In her youth, her voice united the wild tribes. Gave them the strength to resist the pale monarch’s will…longer than most at least.”

I think

[random aspen]

like why does he get amnesia

[spark valve]

probably gms era

[limpid summit]

I feel like it does she’s visibly withering and I don’t think she’s meant to be an Elderbug character

[slender hare]

yeah i’d say gms era for sure

[spark valve]

because he does

[limpid summit]

GP would be way older than her

[sinful nimbus]

Brain eating amoeba in the water

[limpid summit]

Is that why we have to pay Vog for the maps

[midnight reef]

(Im currently in the early stages of remaking the Aspids as a mod for SIlksong)
Which leads me to a question
When Grovehome was built around a Burial Spire, what came first- Grovehome, or the Spire?

[limpid summit]

Probably the spire

[midnight reef]

Because both can work

[limpid summit]

The pilgrimage was bigger in the conductor era and that’s where a lot of pilgrim infrastructure comes from

[midnight reef]

One is the Weavers came to the Princes and requested to make it, which does seem to happen like with Nyleth, and later their relation with the Citadel soured as the Weavers left and Conductors took over

[limpid summit]

Wait really

I thought it was like

Weavers made accord with Nyleth

Conductors tried to go back on it and stamp out paganism

That’s why all the corpses are choir

[floral quiver]

?

[midnight reef]

thats why I think Seth is so defensive of the Shrine

[floral quiver]

The Citadel made the accord?

[midnight reef]

After the Weavers left the Conductors became far more hostile to the old hearts, namely Nyleth, Khann, and the Green Princes

[limpid summit]

Yes

The snails say that

[floral quiver]

Yes

[limpid summit]

Yeah

[floral quiver]

The weavers had nothing to do with it

[limpid summit]

Oh well who knows what the Weavers and Khann did

Cause GMS fought Khann

But the conductors were worse

[limpid summit]

Huh

The citadel was run by weavers

[midnight reef]

Orignally, yes

then they left

[limpid summit]

Yes

Why would the Conductors build a shrine to Nyleth

[midnight reef]

They didnt

[random aspen]

the weavers are the most evil

[floral quiver]

And how long they "ruled" is unknown

[midnight reef]

The Weavers could've, or it could've been done really early into the Conductors Rule

[floral quiver]

As payment for not killing pilgrims

[random aspen]

the shrine was probably made by some random pilgrims

[spark valve]

they died*

[floral quiver]

Both

[midnight reef]

Yeah, both XD

[spark valve]

no

died

[floral quiver]

?

[midnight reef]

Some Weavers got away

[limpid summit]

No weavers got away

[spark valve]

no they didn't

[limpid summit]

The ones who left left during the GMS era

Silken sight describes a time where she wasn’t asleep

[floral quiver]

Thats who the Deepnest Weavers are

[dire lynx]

deepnest weavers are cindril

[spark valve]

who had nothing to do with the citadel

[random aspen]

wtf are these words

[midnight reef]

I doubt that the Weavers were so fractured in their efforts to get away from GMS

[limpid summit]

“Escape her gaze” - weavers leave
“This low her gaze escaped” - Atla, where they made Eva, snare setter, then the Citadel

[spark valve]

they very much were

[slender hare]

some weavers left, some weavers died, right?

[spark valve]

cindril literally has a text begging other weavers to abandon their efforts they were obviously fractured

[limpid summit]

Why would the weavers who stayed to die hold out for a Weaver messiah who literally just left a second ago

[midnight reef]

I'd think it'd need to be a consorted and collective effort, though they ended up working on different methods to try and do it

[limpid summit]

Rather than one who left ages ago

[spark valve]

and one group decided to just leave

and they left

[floral quiver]

That text doesn't say that they were fractured.

[limpid summit]

This also provides a convenient explanation for why Hornet didn’t know about the Citadel or anything and also Herrah isn’t a bad person for perpetuating the citadel because it went down after she left

Son 💔

[floral quiver]

Only that fleeing was a major concern at some late point in the Weavers time in Pharloom

[limpid summit]

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

The service is to her, the silken sight is her being awake

[dire lynx]

the text doesnt say it was late

[spark valve]

it in fact indicates the opposite since gms is awake and an issue

[floral quiver]

Yes?

That doesnt imply fracture. That implies that the Weavers took flight very seriously.

[limpid summit]

We can’t read!

[slender hare]

well it definitely does imply fracture, also considering that there’s weavers in all different parts of the world implies this too

[limpid summit]

Sorry that was harsh

[slender hare]

yes not definitive but definitely strongly implied

[limpid summit]

There was fracture because some left and some didn’t

[slender hare]

we also see dissent in the form of widow’s character

[random aspen]

ive been reading and i undersand nothing what exactly are we arguing about

[slender hare]

we have solid proof of at least ONE weaver apart from the rest, this lends credence that the weavers were disjointed in their haste to leave

[floral quiver]

Or that at the point when the words were written flight was extremely important.

[slender hare]

i can see this interpretation as well for sure

[limpid summit]

Yes because she was alive and awake and could kill them lol

[random aspen]

https://tenor.com/view/pugsley-pugsley-agenda-pugsley-addams-addams-family-wednesday-gif-16065940998367853919

[floral quiver]

Only if you assume that Widow originally dissented.

[slender hare]

but i think with widow and even first sinner, there’s evidence that the weavers were not all cohesive

[limpid summit]

Gadget what is your evidence for the alternative

[slender hare]

not to get into first sinner lol what a can of worms that is lore wise

[plain ruin]

First Sinner is actually Herrah

[slender hare]

LOL

[limpid summit]

First sinner uhh

[random aspen]

idk if this is important to anything you guys are talking about but the captured weavers we read in the cradel are all 4th weavers 8th weavers so that probably means full weavers are too hard to catch

[spark valve]

they're all dead

[dire lynx]

full weavers are all dead

[limpid summit]

Interpretation that makes the most sense to me is she was locked up by the weavers for fear of their “divinity” being undermined post Citadel founding

[slender hare]

that or even after leaving, they perished from something else

like how the weavers in hallownest died from the infection

[spark valve]

much like the weavers in pharloom the weavers abroad all died out

[random aspen]

how did they make all them kids then

[worn stone]

it could also be full blooded weavers have died and the only ones left are 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8th related

[spark valve]

before dying

[limpid summit]

“Oh boy I can’t wait to see living weavers in Silksong when it comes out”

[random aspen]

how did thy die

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-last-judge-death-gif-10261273771146646774

[spark valve]

tc can't remember their plot hooks

[spark valve]

age, stabbing, disease, all the things that can kill you

[plain ruin]

Only living Weaver we see other than Widow and Herrah is the one that leaves after picking up Weaversong, but Weaver lore in HK is a mess so

[dire lynx]

"how are your parents alive if your great grandparents are dead" ahh question

[limpid summit]

Fading away, they probably exerted themselves more than Hallownest weavers ever did in their effort to keep GMS sealed

[random aspen]

those arent 100% tho

[spark valve]

all the part weavers are the last of their line

which means

the rest of their line is dead

[floral quiver]

I have a different interpretation of Widow's cutscene and lore.

I believe that the cutscene shows Widow's perspective hunting other weavers in the relatively recent past and her getting taken to be broken under Silks orders

[random aspen]

so the weavers just died

from living

[spark valve]

yes much like the ones in pharloom

[random aspen]

not from anything else

they just died naturally

thats kinda lame

[slender hare]

how long can weavers live for? we have no idea

[random aspen]

widow is still alive

thats what confuses me

[limpid summit]

Which one the one where the weavers are playing harps?

[slender hare]

same

[dire lynx]

the only weaver who cant use silk...

[random aspen]

how is widow still alive but everyone else isnt

[limpid summit]

“For her light…eternal…our song sustains”

This is likely the service eternal the weavers attempted to escape

[random aspen]

is she like kept alive by silk

[limpid summit]

They’re well dressed

[random aspen]

what does that change

[floral quiver]

Yes.

[random aspen]

does using silk shorten your lifespan or something

[limpid summit]

Her silk is rendered inert by the pins she probably hasn’t used too much of her own

[spark valve]

silk is their life force so that's very possible

[floral quiver]

I believe that Widow was forced into service by Silk

[random aspen]

ig every weaver ever was just unlucky and died before widow

[slender hare]

this is supported by the bindings on her

[slender hare]

maybe it was that she’s so close to GMS that it’s sustaining her that way

[random aspen]

and im not even gonna try to get into the one we saw in deepnest

[dire lynx]

Fine thread spun from the soul of its creator. Highly coveted for its remarkable strength and mystical properties. Used to heal wounds, extend life, and weave powerful runes.

Sister, spider, sat between salt and stone,
Build those tools of brilliant mind imagined,
Aid us when our Silk has waned.

[random aspen]

those pins on her back are actually lifeblood syringes

[plain ruin]

Could've been killed while trying to integrate into societies they found, could've picked a bad route out of Pharloom and stumbled upon the Evil Land of Death and Pain

[random aspen]

also how do the citadel dudes confirm these 8th waevers are last of their line

[plain ruin]

Could've died trying to birth a child

[floral quiver]

Silk makes one long lived. Now Widow must rely on Silk's to do anything.

[slender hare]

yeah, we at the very least know that the infection wiped out the hallownest weavers. anything could have happened to the others

[plain ruin]

Or died while birthing a child

[limpid summit]

Probably checking if they have kids

Couldn’t hurt to ask

[random aspen]

isnt this implying they knew the parents of that weaver

[limpid summit]

Uhh

I guess?

[plain ruin]

GMS can probably sense it somehow

[limpid summit]

Maybe they just mean in terms of descendants

[random aspen]

wait its not this deep theres no way tc thought of all this 😭 ✌️

[dire lynx]

If sinner can do it GMS can absolutley

[slender hare]

everything is that deep!! don’t lose your whimsy!

[worn stone]

from the way shakra describes the weavers as viscious makes me personaly believe that other bugs in different kingdoms may have not liked the weavers as much as the citizens of pharloom and that could have lead to violent ends for some groups of weavers. this is all speculation tho on the different ways weavers may have died beside hallowenest infection and natural causes.

[spark valve]

the citizens of pharloom are the ones most exposed to how vicious they are. Shakra is from pharloom and the vaultkeeper also hates the weavers (but has to defer to them because they enslaved his kind)

[floral quiver]

He hates Hornet specifically because she interrupted his learning.

[marble oasis]

judging by hallownest i would guess that a majority of them at least sought sanctuary with other spider tribes

which would all be similarly vicious

[worn stone]

i thought shakara was not from pharloom? she says stuff like "in my land this is way we greet each other" and in these lands names are given freely or ive been making maps of these lands. talking like she isnt part of pharloom

[marble oasis]

tribe of pharloom’s edge

[floral quiver]

She isnt a native

[marble oasis]

Warrior cartographer of a tribe from Pharloom's edge

[dire lynx]

lion village

[slender hare]

that begs the question then of how wide stretching was the weaver influence, were they deeply known throughout ALL of pharloom, or more better known within the citadel and known as rumors at the edge?

[sinful nimbus]

you can feel them making stuff up on the spot sometimes i'm ngl

[plain ruin]

Shakra's tribe knew of the Weavers

[slender hare]

yes, but how much?

[plain ruin]

They were also known by the bugs of the Nameless town

[floral quiver]

I think everyone with some relationship with Pharloom knew of the Weavers

[plain ruin]

Enough to know of their vicious nature, their disappearance, and their burial spires

[floral quiver]

At least as peerless and vicious killers

Powerful and deadly

[slender hare]

this all definitely makes it more unbelievable that they’re all dead lol

[limpid summit]

Probably pretty far reaching if a little bit less than Conductor era Citadel but they died out a hot minute ago

So we don’t see a ton of NPCs commenting on it

[floral quiver]

They probably arent

[slender hare]

right?

it also brings up the question then of why only mixed weavers were getting scooped up. it makes the most sense that it would be them if the pure weavers all died, but damn, they ALL are dead?

[dire lynx]

yeah, it sure seems he loves weavers!
"Bleg! Dead! Dead, your vicious kind are meant to be. Better methinks to stay as such..."

[floral quiver]

In relation to history, yeah. It's still been a long time since the Citadel went silent

[worn stone]

you think there may have been weavers that did escape fully and dont have the eye of pharloom looming over them. cause the cradel notes does give off of them just finding out distant relatives of weavers. the whole found this 1/8th weaver in this kingdom, found this 1/4th weaver in x kingdom. so they are just hunting weavers but dont know if there is any full 100% weavers or anything like that still out there

[slender hare]

yeah, maybe mixed weavers are far enough removed from their weaver kind that they don’t know the importance of hiding themselves from GMS

[floral quiver]

Yes. My point is that saying why he hates them is an impossiblity.

[slender hare]

hornet had no idea about any of this stuff

well, not the full scope of it at least

[floral quiver]

He has a general distaste for most things seemingly

[floral quiver]

One of the reasons I dont think Hornet was some weapon.

She would know these things. Or at least what the Weavers of Deepnest thought of it.

She knows Weavers exist. She knows what a burial spire looks like. Everything else is unknown at the beginning

[random aspen]

so she probably died by the events of silksong right

[floral quiver]

Potentially

[midnight reef]

I guess so

[floral quiver]

Her fate is unknown

[limpid summit]

Tc forgot

[midnight reef]

IDK

Originally, (read, 2019 trailers) the Weavers in Pharloom were less... entombed?

They still had their white masks and red cloaks

no baring on the current convo tho

I just noticed that awhile ago and I thought it was cool

[floral quiver]

Yeah a lot of things changed. Like, the entire story shifted between trailers

[midnight reef]

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

the broad strokes of the story are the same between 21 and now

ignoring Act 3

Beacause the Act 3 we have is radically different from whatever Team Cherry was planning for 2021

Which they never got to start on as they never finished the Gloom

[random aspen]

act 3 couldve been triple the length of act 2 and every old heart couldve had a whole area like verdania

khann: do my gauntlets

[midnight reef]

the old hearts are litterally just Team Cherry not wanting to cut bosses they had made

Khann and the Coral Tower were likely prepared well in advance

Same with Karm

Lost Verdania is reused from Verdania, a normal area in 2022, which itself is a re-asset and reused from the Aspids

[random aspen]

why couldnt they js repurpose coral gorge to be khanns memory realm 😭

[midnight reef]

because the Gorge was repurposed

[random aspen]

to be dry asf right

sand of karak and blasted steps

[midnight reef]

99.9% of the rooms in the Blasted Steps and Sands of Karak ARE Coral Gorge rooms

[random aspen]

yeahhh and they shouldve made that whole area not dry in khanns memory

[midnight reef]

Hell, look hard enough in some of them and you find leftovers, like the elevators in the Gorge still having parts leftover (hidden) in the Blasted Steps

The Slab has some hidden Coral assets

[random aspen]

we wouldve seen more of the ant tribe in its prime

what if far fields were originally completely overran by the ants

[midnight reef]

A bunch of those rooms got reused in right side/upper Far Fields

[random aspen]

nope heres a single arena

[midnight reef]

Though even in 2021, Karms Operahouse was in the Far Fields

[random aspen]

just use them again in the memory area

and nyleth idrc cus i dont think shellwood changed that much

[midnight reef]

it did

They cut some really cool stuff from it D:

and moved about stuff

Like

The Shellwood Bell and Bell Bench got swapped

[random aspen]

not as major as a whole ass area

[midnight reef]

Most of upper Shellwood got redone

[random aspen]

ts pmo

[midnight reef]

the only rooms not touched massively between Shellwood in 2021 and now are the rooms between Bellhart and the Weaver Burial Spire

that'd you go through*

The rest was pretty different

[midnight reef]

And when the Bell Bench was in upper Shellwood, you'd pogo off the bells and use Cling Grip to get into the Mask Shard room

[random aspen]

cant think of 1 reason this was cut instead of being khanns memory area

[midnight reef]

well, for one

that had already LOOONNNG been cut by 2021

The Gorge of 2019 was entirely dropped by 21

And then they proceeded to, and get this... reuse all the rooms for something else already, and they didnt want to rehash it again

[floral quiver]

Plus im certain they'll pull stuff like that into the new DLC areas

[random aspen]

just repurpose it instead of a lame ass gauntlet

[floral quiver]

It is a seaborn place

[random aspen]

instead of the whole sea of karak we just got the fucking tower

[midnight reef]

Red Coral Gorge*

The Area was the Red Coral Gorge

[random aspen]

same thing

[midnight reef]

seperated into the Coral River, and Coral Steps

[random aspen]

theyre all coral

[midnight reef]

Coral River got mostly reused into the Sands of Karak (Hence why in Silksoul it'll be titled the River of Karak)

And the Coral Steps mostly became the Blasted Steps

[random aspen]

like just remove the judges

[floral quiver]

I do love that they reused things in a wildly different context

[midnight reef]

its not so simple

just look at the screenshot

If you dont see it- theres a TON of citadel architecture there also

[random aspen]

infinite time infinite money

[floral quiver]

The lamps for one

[midnight reef]

the golden platofrms

the railings

[floral quiver]

Mhm

[dire lynx]

chains

[midnight reef]

chians too

[floral quiver]

The pillars

[midnight reef]

The pillars are older though

[random aspen]

will not take more than a month

[midnight reef]

If your so sure, learn Unity, and help decorate Scenes for Silksoul

;3

[random aspen]

removing those things wouldve resulted in a cooler and differnt area as well

[floral quiver]

Older than the modern Citadel. Still Citadel

[dire lynx]

whats silksoul

[midnight reef]

My 2021 map mod recreation

[dire lynx]

oh cool

[midnight reef]

Originally it'd have been a hybrid map thing, but as I sat on it more, its just going to be easier to do the 2021 map first, and deal with all that later

[random aspen]

you remove assets in a single area

[midnight reef]

you have to then add new ones in their place

[random aspen]

you never specified

[midnight reef]

because it was implied.

[random aspen]

just said removing the citadel stuff

which i cant see taking that long

[dire lynx]

remove citadel stuff and leave massive gaps in the background and foreground