sk-lore

[wet walrus]

We only really know they had ages meaning bugs have achived great technological advancements that progressed until what we have now

Or new eras

[supple fjord]

Ok so I’ve noticed something

We know that higher beings can create bugs right

[edgy nebula]

yeah

some can

not sure about all

[supple fjord]

Every instance of this has used the dream realm

[edgy nebula]

not weavers

[supple fjord]

Ehhhh weavers are debatable

I wouldn’t call them higher beings entirely

But speaking of them

[edgy nebula]

gms didnt create weavers via the dream realm

thats what i mean

[supple fjord]

We’ve never seen pale beings create bugs

[edgy nebula]

gms

well, gms in a way

[supple fjord]

We’ve only seen them enhance bugs

So I wonder

Pale beings are supposedly stronger variants of higher beings right?

Are they or am I misinformed?

[edgy nebula]

pale beings are a subsect of powerful bugs

you can be a pale being and not a higher being

[supple fjord]

I see

[edgy nebula]

pbs are pretty mysterious so far

[edgy nebula]

pale higher beings are the ones we see doing the cool stuff, normal pale beings are lame by comparison

[supple fjord]

So basically, what makes something a pale being and what makes something a higher being is completely separate

[supple fjord]

How many pale beings do we know of? Prolly like 3-4?

[edgy nebula]

yeah iirc

[supple fjord]

4 if you count palestag

[edgy nebula]

pale king, hornet, gms, maybe tk? white lady, and some i might be forgetting

[supple fjord]

Oh yeah Hornet

Yeah that’s like 4-5

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[supple fjord]

I forget who tk is

[edgy nebula]

the knight

[supple fjord]

Oh right

[edgy nebula]

tk has a pale shell but im not sure if they could be considered a pale being

[supple fjord]

But yeah, pale beings seem to be unable to create bugs

Unlike higher beings such as the radiance and unn

Or maybe creation isn’t tied to higher beings, just higher beings connected to the dream realm

[edgy nebula]

that is pretty weird i havent seen anyone point that out

[supple fjord]

Pale beings can also figure out dream realm stuff though sooooo

[edgy nebula]

you might be able to consider lace and phantom as bugs

[supple fjord]

Oh wait

I completely forgot about them

Yeah nevermind pale beings can create bugs

That said

It is still weird that we’ve never seen a pale being create a bug using the dream realm

Just physically

So does that mean pale beings are gods more connected to the physical world while other higher beings might be more connected to the dream realm?

Because that seems to be a trend

Even though there’s rare cases of overlap

[supple fjord]

Now I have to wonder if their creation is more of an asexual reproduction thing than a divine creation thing

[wet walrus]

Because that is what essance being do. Radiance, Nightmares Heart and Unn does it

[supple fjord]

Ok that clears things up more

[supple fjord]

Do we know of any higher beings who are neither essence beings or pale beings?

[floral quiver]

Divine creation if their narrative position is considered important.

Lace and Phantom are of the same divine stuff (silk) as Silk, unlike her first children who were at first wild animals unrelated to the Goddess.

[supple fjord]

Thinking more about it

The way the moths were created by the radiance is probably very similar to how lace was created by GMS

[wet walrus]

Higher being is referred as a being that exist above others according to creator. So based off that you can consider shade lord a higher being.

[supple fjord]

Chat

Do y’all think the radiance literally shed its essence to make the moths?

Similar to how GMS used its own silk to make lace

[blissful harbor]

or the moths were made how the weavers were
Rad took a lumafly and elevated it

[floral quiver]

Could easily be so!

[supple fjord]

Then I have to wonder what Unn elevated

Did he elevate like

Plants

[floral quiver]

Unlike Silk and the Weavers, the Moth tribe didnt claim direct divine heritage at one time

[supple fjord]

I think that basically splits higher beings into 3 categories then

Essence beings, pale beings, and whatever the hell void is

[floral quiver]

Unn, much like Nyleth, elevated and connected their entire kingdom. Greenpath was a kind of interconnected place that found the stark individualness of outsiders weird and unsettling.

[supple fjord]

Nyleth is a higher being?

I thought Nyleth was more of a warden

[floral quiver]

Still mortal. But "ability to age and die" doesnt stop one from being a god

[wet walrus]

Hbs are very unique though. Can't really categorise them.
Hbs of the same essance can be associated with different things. For pale beings we know are associated with different things. PK associated with civilisation, WL with fertility and GMS...
Uhh idk. Not all hbs have innocent nature. Gms is beastly by her nature as much as she covers it up with her beauty. NMH trapped its followers in an endless loop to feed itself.

[whole holly]

Unn, Radiance and Nightmare Heart aren't ever implied to be immortal, they need to be sustained in different ways

[whole holly]

none of non-Pale Higher Beings we know of are functionally immortal, they can fade or wane or cease to exist if their lives aren't prolonged, Radiance needed to be remembered which is only death that matters, Unn's power waned when she called out mosskin and they couldn't hear her voice and Nightmare's Heart needs ritual to be prolonged, none of those suggest immortality, which seems to be case for Pale Beings instead(Pale King is weird exception which isn't even commented or elaborated on)

[blissful harbor]

interestingly enough

we see mosskin like enemies on silksong

so it’s possible

[supple fjord]

Do y’all think maybe the dream realm is connected to how bugs are elevated or is it just case by case?

I mean GMS did talk to Hornet in some kind of dream sequence

[whole holly]

Unn created the greenery though

[supple fjord]

But there wasn’t any dreamcatcher particles so idk

[wet walrus]

They don't need their followers to sustain themselves but yeah they do draw power from it. Unn loses her power because she never answered mosskins call(?) Radiance also lost much of her power after she was forgotten and seals weaking her.

[blissful harbor]

ik, i’m talking about the bugs

[whole holly]

i personally think PK died by regrets/suicide

[whole holly]

i mean i don't know why she would have to give sentience to bugs or mossy form, she likely created mosskin just as she created foliage

[whole holly]

Radiance needs to be remembered, Unn needs mosskin to be returned to her dream?... Nightmare Heart needs ritual cycle to be sustained or so it seems

[whole holly]

or broken heart, which would be perfect symbolism honestly

[edgy nebula]

pk probably died in a broken heart or some way like that

death by guilt is more fitting

[whole holly]

you weren't fast enough

[floral quiver]

So do most gods in history. Very few immortal beings in myth are "truly" immortal. They need sustenance like ambrosia or regular very specific sacrifices etc.

A lot of gods had humans around specifically to get things the gods needed that they were too large or mighty to get themselves.

Non-functional immortality is rare in god-focused mythology.

[supple fjord]

Question

[edgy nebula]

i was replying to your message

[supple fjord]

What IS the realm GMS seems to have access to?

[edgy nebula]

memories

via silk

[wet walrus]

I mean I am sure they are ancient beings, before they created their followers they could maintain their existence. I doubt Radiance needs be remembered by that sense as well. Unn and mosskin already share a dream which the mosskin stand on. They just didn't hear the call.

[edgy nebula]

she seems very physical though compared to other hbs like pk and rad

[whole holly]

Radiance does need to be remembered because forgetting is only death that matters, i have theory which elaborates on this

[blissful harbor]

just essence and soul really

[whole holly]

it's bit of text wall

[whole holly]

they are intertwined after all

[floral quiver]

The Pale King is extremely physical. His physicalness was his big disadvantage in his war with the Radiance

[edgy nebula]

he's in the dream realm when he dies

we never see gms do any dream shenanigans

[blissful harbor]

well
she messes with the mind and memories with the haunting

[wet walrus]

Yes, but the radiance doesn't die though. How does it work?

[edgy nebula]

somewhat but she's also physically puppeteering them

[whole holly]

yeah, but Pale Beings don't need to be sustained unless you count Weavers sustaining her Light specifically, but i believe that's not her need to be sustained as living beings, all pale beings seem to be functionally immortal as in don't die by natural causes

[blissful harbor]

Rad was sustained through “hushed whispers of faith” as Seer tells us

[edgy nebula]

throughout the game seer still remembers her, so do many common bugs as she destroyed hallownest

[whole holly]

she wasn't forgotten, she survived by whispers of faith which allowed her to start infection later on

[floral quiver]

Specifically, the King missed a single reminder of her glory, a bug found it and that was her vector to restart her crusade.

She hadn't died yet.

[blissful harbor]

was it?
i don’t think anything suggests the statue at the crown was all that important

besides being one of the remaining monuments to her

[whole holly]

yeah, also crystals interact with both soul and essence they refract light and is filled with blazing light energy

[whole holly]

it is way to preserve her memory as inanimate objects can have/carry essence

[floral quiver]

It's the only monument to Radiance in the game if I recall.

Might have forgotten others

[whole holly]

for gods sake Grey Prince Zote can be found by Dream Nailing idol, Nyleth's Statue is way to access Nyleth's boss fight

[whole holly]

i would elaborate more with my theory but it is bit of textwall, should i paste it here?

it is called Lost Memory theory and it reinforces what is being discussed here

Lost Memory theory
Seer says memories and dreams are same and refer to them in same context
main difference is ways to access them

but Memories in Silksong give insight about why Radiance didn't want to be forgotten
Lost Verdania implies that memories can fade and be lost eventually, and Hornet has to recollect the memories in memory orbs, similar to dream roots we find in hallownest, but what is interesting is what can happen to beings if they are forgotten, they become a myth and no one knows if Palestag really existed: "Myth made real in memory. The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it. Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?" maybe similar thing could have happened to radiance because memories if not actively remembered can be lost to time and forgetting is exactly what it implies

if Radiance didn't survive thanks to hush whispers to faith she would have been lost, Palestag survived as a myth, but Green Prince's vague recollection was able to preserve form of Palestag we aren't sure is real, maybe Palestag was Pale Being that was forgotten

this is speculation with some evidence, reasoning and mostly implications but it might shine light on what Radiance being forgotten meant, and mothkin's importance of preserving dreams, essence and memories

Essence can exist without character being able to see it, and can only be seen with special ability or tool that Godseekers, Various Higher Beings, Mothkin and Dream Nail Weilders have

Seer does have a few things to say about forgotten dreams

A dream is endless, but a Kingdom is not. Hold something in your mind and it lives on with you, but forget it and you seal it away forever. That is the only death that matters.

Seer thinks dreams are eternal, but if they are forgotten they are 'sealed away' this was probably what Radiance was at risk of suffering not necessarily truly destroyed or killed, but something like a 'fate worse than death' for a being that exists in dreams

[whole holly]

forgotten dreams and lost memories are pretty much analogous and accessing/recollecting them can become difficult, as in Lost Verdania and Forgotten Radiance context, although Radiance managed to survive, but Radiance statue could have played a part of preserving her memory, same way Nyleth's statue hold's memory of nyleth for some reason, and that could be why we can Dream Nail radiance's statue

Pale King most likely intentionally pulled bugs into his thrall and worship as he gained followers, including ones of Radiance, he might have underestimated her since she would have been forgotten and most likely powerless and he pulled Moths into his thrall, as Wyrms do and ruined cycle of radiance being worshiped and mothkin being sustained
it is Wyrm nature and likely with his foresight anticipated Radiance fading... as she did for some time

maybe Fading into memory not exclusively for Dream Beings... possibly for Unn was well, her power waned when mosskin were infected, even though she was calling out to mosskin, they couldn't remember her voice or were too blinded by Radiance's Light
she as physical being is alive but she can't be attuned, her light is forgotten and so on, while Palestag’s memory is distorted and no one knows if Palestag Existed as it was witnessed it memory and his Needolin Dialogue suggests that
“May echoes gather…
Lonely specks, adrift…
Forgotten or lost…
Winding ways meet again…
What is remembered…
Facets many, shining apart…
”
Palestag's Needolin dialogue is about how scattered, forgotten fragments, whether dreams, memories, or ideas can reconvene into a complex, multi‑faceted whole. and Hunter's Journal Palestag entry confirms it whether or not Palestag was Pale or even if it existed

stuff about Pale King is bit outdated, i conceived it, before contrast between PK's and GMS's parenting gave me insight, and entirely based it off Hornet's dialogue about Pale Beings

[floral quiver]

Yeah. I agree with this.

Basically, the King made war on the Radiance by starving her of worship, and thus of the thing that keeps her alive, knowledge that she exists.

It would've worked if not for sheer dumb luck.

[whole holly]

likely, yes

[floral quiver]

Yeah, that's been my thoughts on the subject from the beginning

Radiance is much less physical than her sibling gods which gives both advantages and disadvantages

[whole holly]

i haven't tied this to new insight from silksong, such as Coldshard's mnemonic properties of remembering it's shape, memory crystal blue tool, Fayforn being fell heart of frost and her listening to Mister Mushroom monologue about memories

should i make volume two, i will get to it eventually

i promise

i should call it Frozen Memory theory

[floral quiver]

@whole holly oh! Looked up genetic parentage and found that one of the disqualifiers for it is "thing that changed was alive before the changes".

It's so that someone can't intentionally or accidentally claim genetic parenthood over someone that is already alive from another set of parents.

[whole holly]

if that's the case is she genetic progenitor rather than birth parent? also where did you find such intriguing information?

[floral quiver]

Give me a few to find it, yeah?

Don't have it open at the moment

[whole holly]

sure

i guess progenitor is more accurate term now that i think about it

[floral quiver]

Yeah progenitor is more accurate, she's the originator of the Weaver line, but not their direct "biological" parent. Nor is she a surrogate for their parents.

Which is the Weavers big issue

[whole holly]

yeah it is weird how TC's world-building doesn't align with our conventional models of parenthood genetic or otherwise, Void/Abyss is both progenitor and and surrogate for Vessels, with them being regarded as Born of God and Void

but i believe Pharlids were so fundamentally changed that they themselves served as genetic materials rather than just beings which where altered, they were basically reborn into Weavers, with their Pharlid memories as well as identity effectively ceasing existence

[whole holly]

did you end up finding your source of information?

[floral quiver]

Still looking. There's a lot of discourse and I found the scientific article by happenstance.

Sorry! 🙁

[whole holly]

it's okay

[floral quiver]

It's honestly a very lively part of the genetic studies discourse. 🙂

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6852398/

Found it! It's an objection to a different article. I can post that too, if you like!

"Genetic parenthood" is in a metaphorical knife fight. Or was relatively recently. 😆

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6549223/

The article being objected to

[floral quiver]

Well that's the thing isn't it. The Weavers both disagree and would still consider that technical distinction unimportant because direct biological descent is important to them.

It's also important thematically and narratively because even when Silk has biological children, she treats them the same way she does the Weavers. As tools for her own gratification.

[whole holly]

i believe The Palacios-González paper assumes that if a body is alive before a change, it is the same individual, but i think that the Pharlid’s memories, consciousness, and heritable information were entirely deleted and replaced, the original individual died.

[whole holly]

in any case progenitor is most accurate word and i am glad we can agree on that

[floral quiver]

Mhm!

[whole holly]

game considers distinction to not be that important: Mask Maker dialogue: Hornet: "You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both." Mask Maker: "Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule."

[floral quiver]

I think an important consideration is First Sinner's memory. Is it her direct memory of the change? Is it Silk's memory being effectively "broadcast" over the silk thread network? Is it something that Alta was forced to forget by Silk and remembered?

[whole holly]

i think latter, with powers GMS has, but i don't have super strong basis for that, rather implications of remaking them

i partially finished my Frozen Memory theory, should i share it, it isn't as lore-dense

[floral quiver]

Do it!

[whole holly]

Frozen Memory Theory
so if radiance was a essence higher being afraid of being forgotten because no one was honoring her, pharloom is the opposite problem where the past is preserved in one way or another . we’ve got these coldshards and memory crystals that have "life contained within" and remember their shape even after you smash them, which makes the whole "frozen memory" thing way more literal than hallownest's vague dreams. it’s not just about a thought lingering in a bug’s head; it’s about memory becoming physical, like a mnemonic frost that traps you in what used to be, which happens to hornet whenever she dies in Mf.Fay.

Mister Mushroom’s Dialogue about visiting the past at mount fay and memories becoming contradictory, he’s basically confirming that in pharloom history isn't a story, it’s a place you can walk into, but a messy one where the fragments don't line up, fragmented memories also tie in well with memory of verdania, requiring us to collect memory orbs to that Green Prince can recollect memories which are suggested to be unreliable in palestag hunter’s journal entry: “Myth made real in memory. The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it. Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?” and needolin dialogue: “May echoes gather...
Lonely specks, adrift...
Forgotten or lost...
Winding ways meet again...
What is remembered...
Facets many, shining apart...
”
Also with memorium’s lore tablet stating that what is remembered is never lost

[whole holly]

if Fayforn is the "fell heart of frost" listening to him, she’s likely the cause of the frost, crystalline stasis where nothing can actually die or change because the crystals keep forcing things back into their "remembered" shape. hornet taking damage and leaving behind a crystal statue of herself with memory crystal equipped is the perfect evidence that her own identity is being weaponized into a jagged defensive shell that shatters, meaning in this kingdom your past isn't a lost, it’s a recorded and preserved. it’s a different kind of existential nightmare than the radiance’s; while the radiance was "starving" for attention to avoid being sealed away, pharloom is a kingdom that can't stop eating its own history, resulting in a "myth made real" scenario where the palestag or any other myth might just be a distorted, frozen echo that refuses to melt. everything is "facets many, shining apart" because the memory is too unreliable and too forgotten to stay linear, so it breaks into memory orbs or memory crystals(in Mount Fay) that stay "lonely specks, adrift" until someone like hornet tries to stitch the contradictory mess back together.

[whole holly]

maybe the "song" of pharloom is just the vibration needed to finally crack these memories open, because otherwise, everyone is just a carrier of a inner rhythm they forgot they even had. We tune to Fayforn using tuning fork but we require something more advanced from Shamans when we need to access memory that is in past, in both cases tuning/resonance/rhythm access occurs by song, while in Hollow Knight is was related to light which gives additional insight about how White Lady evaded attuning, her internal control of Essence/Soul which are intertwined is so precise that Godseeker’s couldn’t access her, which might be similar reason to why Fayforn doesn’t have needolin dialogue or elegy of deep interaction, Frost/Coldshard phenomenon inhibits our technique and Ancestral Art of Song, which is also suggested by mnemonids unable to fully form word “remember” in needolin dialogue and mnemonords not having needolin dialogue at all due to their size or increased potency of Frost/Coldshard phenomenon which has it’s own mnemonic forces that counteract ours.

[floral quiver]

I lik this.

[whole holly]

i wanted to include Crystals from Crystal Peaks and Moss Druid somehow and Godseeker more, i am glad White Lady is actually given a feat, everybody calls her a bum

[floral quiver]

The game considers the distinction unimportant because whether actually related or not, those who claim motherhood should love and care for their children.

If we take how Silk treats her "of her own blood" children, I'm lead to think that "We're Her directly-made Divine Children" was the last thing holding the Weavers loyal under a cavalcade of uncaring and abuse with the discovery that they weren't Silk's Divine Children being the straw that broke the camels back.

[twin dragon]

We don't know how gms treated them

that's a very important thing that we have zero info about

we know they were in some sort of servitude but that's about it

top 5 reasons why old pharloom needs to be a thing

[floral quiver]

Well no. We dont.

But narrative thematics and implication is there.

[whole holly]

That’s a really grounded way to look at it. It shifts the focus to the actual emotional weight of the story, Grand Mother Silk can only be described as neglectful and abusive mother as collective mother of silk-spun beings and weavers, i believe part of Eva's creation was Weavers' attempt to create the "divine child" made of runes which was their way of trying to prove they could be better parents than the one who claimed them, at least in part

[whole holly]

First Sinner's rebellion being punished as sin of apostasy is pretty huge implication also with First Sinner holding sheer amount of rage and resentment as she does

she literally is Rage against the machine, lol

[whole holly]

machine being naive foundation of weavers in their own words

she refers to silken curse as well

[twin dragon]

I firmly belive that first sinner hurt the weaver narrative

and was imprisoned by them

[whole holly]

Widow being only willing weaver to serve Grand Mother Silk is also pretty huge implication

[floral quiver]

I believe that the emotional weight and narrative intent and thematics of the story is extremely important to Silksong.

more important than Hollow Knight's was to it.

[whole holly]

even if weavers were ones who imprisoned her, her rage against GMS would still be part of her story

[twin dragon]

Yeah, the fact that she lied

as supposedly the early citadel religion was all about weaver divinity

[floral quiver]

And even Widow could be important to the emotional weight. What does Silk do to wayward daughters when she catches them?

She forces them to serve. To love. She breaks their will through torture and death of identity.

[twin dragon]

widow served gms out of her own volition

[whole holly]

Hollow Knight has emotional weight too, i only wish Unn interaction had more emotional weight at least as much as Nyleth at least "we are life, we are growth, what world without us"

[twin dragon]

weavers punished her for that loyalty

[twin dragon]

If only nyleth was relevant at all

[floral quiver]

We dont know that.

[twin dragon]

it is heavily implied

there are cut sprites of her lobotomy, even

i wouldnt consider that canon but

the fact that they were considered is a giveaway

[whole holly]

i mean can you really say that in comparison to unn as active participant in story?

[floral quiver]

It does! I just think that the emotional weight is more essential to Silksong compared to Hollow Knight

[twin dragon]

Nyleth's quite a bit more important though

To the main story, at leasty

she feels like the hidden 4th heart

[whole holly]

Radiance's fight, Birthplace Memory had so much emotional weight to it

[twin dragon]

dream no more

[whole holly]

i believe that's partly because we play in point of view of vessel

[floral quiver]

Well yeah.

Hornet's being invested is an essential part of the narrative.

Hornet's emotional investment makes the player more emotionally invested

The Knight isn't directly, openly invested in the story and place like Hornet is.

[twin dragon]

the slab incident

[floral quiver]

?

What do you mean there?

[whole holly]

also vessels cutscene that nobody ever recalls or mentions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHUPGOM5a7E

[whole holly]

hunter's journal entry of slab enemies or hornet being cloak-less

[floral quiver]

The enemies she's very emotionally invested in?

Like, negatively invested in but she cares about them enough to hate.

[twin dragon]

Imo that's not good characterization

[whole holly]

@twin dragon what do you think about this

[twin dragon]

Eeeeh

I mean

i would still keep the memories in essence theory

Keep in mind the elegy of the deep is a shaman's work

[whole holly]

i believe memories are essence too, this doesn't discredit that, did you read the whole thing?

[floral quiver]

Yes, I know. We've went over this before.

It doesn't stop the emotional impact of the story overall being important enough to seriously consider when discussing lore potentialities.

Silksong is a very emotionally and narratively driven story and its lore is intertwined with that emotion and narrative.

Ignoring emotional and narrative implication for cold hard statements and logic does the narrative and emotions a large disservice.

[twin dragon]

These cold hard statements are logic usually make up the emotionally heavy narrative

and also why it makes sense

[twin dragon]

This seems to be a metaphorical ish thing

you dont literally mean a "crystal" do you?

aside from the ice thingies

[whole holly]

i mean Coldshard and Memory Crystal blue tool formed from it, Crystals in Crystal Peak are different with how they interact with dreams, is this what you are asking?

[whole holly]

to be fair, lore is metaphorical-ish

[twin dragon]

Yeah

do crystals in crystal peak have any dream-like interaction?

[whole holly]

i could only provide material analysis but some major things have to be omitted

[twin dragon]

what i could gather from the read is that you're comparing memories to a crystal, a shell

maybe i read it wrong but

[floral quiver]

No?

Or rather, what one considers narratively and emotionally fulfilling is subjective.

I consider Widow being a wayward daughter forced to service by an abusive mother, forced to love a mother unworthy of the name, and to hunt former sisters-in-arms more narratively and emotionally fulfilling with the narrative told than her being a loyal daughter and victim of the Weavers.

Similar to my interpretation of First Sinner.

The emotional twist of "The Weavers are just as bad as Silk" is narratively and emotionally extremely boring to me.

[whole holly]

yes, i guess they refract blazing light and i think wanderer's journal comments on it, i don't remember what but they interact with soul as well

[twin dragon]

You could interpret it this way, not saying you can't, but some things are just objectively set in stone to achieve their narrative goal

You don't shape the narrative how you want it to be

[floral quiver]

You assume objectivity where there is none.

You base that "objectivity" on your own interpretation of things.

If things were objective and locked down, then there would be more than us throwing highly subjective and selective things at each other.

Which is my biggest issue with you as a lore debator.

You assume that your interpretation is inherently the objective truth.

[whole holly]

they store energy infection/blazing light is one of it, although they can draw in soul in the air to amplify focus either in speed of effect of focusing

[twin dragon]

I really do not, i base off my claims off of existing, set in stone evidence

You cant make up stuff because you think it fits better your way

What is debated mostly here, and what i think you consider subjective, are things unclear or theories, where much evidence isnt present

[sinful nimbus]

The game doesn't really present the player any information that can be used to create a definitive and objective interpretation assuming you skip all the dialogue like a normal person

[twin dragon]

Hornet is most definitely hornet

[floral quiver]

Here's the thing. "Widow as a victim of the Weavers"?

Based on subjective interpretation of things in the game.

There is no objective facts that state she was a loyal Weaver who was a victim of the Weavers. None.

The facts we have in game? Could point to both interpretations.

The things we know about Weaver:

She was tortured and her mask forcibly removed.

She is mad, with a deep love for and loyalty to Silk

She at some point was in the Cradle praying for Silk's release.

These are the only objective facts we know.

Everything else is subjective interpretation based on those facts.

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but its a subjective and highly emotional story

Nubbies interpretation seems to make the most sense though why else would she be like that

[twin dragon]

This is ironically one of the things argued that i mentioned here

As tc for their own fucking reasons

Cut the lobotomy

I cant use that as evidence because its not canon now

[floral quiver]

... torture. By Silk. To insure love and loyalty when assumed familial connection failed to insure it.

[whole holly]

@sinful nimbus what do you think about this?

[twin dragon]

As theres a lack of info on that, you could say that, but depends on who the actual big bad of the story for you is

Im positive the game conveys enough that weavers are absolutely horrendous beings and gms is in part, their victim

[floral quiver]

That's subjectivity.

Thats your personal interpretation

[twin dragon]

Mhm, thats the subjectivity i agree with

[floral quiver]

That's not objective truth

You assume your interpretation is objective truth

[twin dragon]

I never did

[floral quiver]

You are wrong

[twin dragon]

What

Im arguing in favour of what i think

And setting my differences as to why i think X

[floral quiver]

You claim that your interpretation of Widow is based on objectivity.

When your entire interpretation is based around your subjective opinion on who the villain is.

Your interpretation of Widow's victim hood is not objective. It's subjective.

[twin dragon]

I think in part, objectivity plays into it

Even if you see gms as the big bad, theres still the considered cut sprite and weavers taking in fs

Im not arguing as it is 100% objective, but why i think it is most likely

[sinful nimbus]

She's loyal to Silk in the cutscene after her fight and surgical pins/needles are more of a creation of the Citadel as shown in Whiteward and furthermore there's a great likelihood she is one of the weavers who was punished for being guilty of a "unnamed sin"

Silk punishing her just has no precedent nor evidence and goes against what the game shows us and leads the player to believe

This isn't based in opinion so its not subjective

Its based in evidence

[floral quiver]

Prove it. Prove her non-forced loyalty in a way that isnt based on subjective interpretation.

[sinful nimbus]

I just gave the evidence if you can't read or don't understand how implications work there's not really any further conversation to be had

[floral quiver]

... see, we disagree on what the evidence implies.

[whole holly]

debate isn't always best way to find out truth

[twin dragon]

A debate usually has the goal of finding the truth

[whole holly]

both sides always typically become biased over it because their position forces them to actively defend it

[sinful nimbus]

Is there a way to read a cutscene of silk being loyal to GMS back in her heyday as her actually being unloyal and then being punished later for it

[whole holly]

that goal is rarely met

[twin dragon]

Then thats not a good debate

[twin dragon]

Highly dependant on the debater

[whole holly]

good debate is rare, goes against general nature of debate, it is simply unlikely outcome

[twin dragon]

Usually that results in a plain bad debate

[twin dragon]

Whay

What

[whole holly]

honestly both sides have responsibility to ensure good faith debate

[sinful nimbus]

Bias is a thing and its important to consider what exactly would make you change your mind in this case so you can remain open minded. If there was some alternative way to read this cutscene that makes sense I'd be open to hearing it out

[twin dragon]

Most interactions can be ruined by bad faith i wouldnt consider it a flaw of debate itself

[whole holly]

good debaters are intellectually honest, open to opponents ideas and generally tend to not discredit information because it disagree with their own interpretation

[floral quiver]

By not assuming loyalty from the off. I dont interpret Widows cutscene as depicting loyalty.

I don't assume true loyalty from the tortured madwoman. I assume she was forced into loyalty and love through said torture because the one she's loyal to has a trait of treating even her biological children like trash.

[whole holly]

it is flaw of debate itself, sadly, both positions are defended by flawed beings after all

[twin dragon]

We dont know if gms was actually terrible or the weavers were powerhungry, the implication inclines to believe the later

[whole holly]

i mean i could interpret her loyalty as her expecting better treatment in return as she is in extremely vulnerable position, compared to GMS at least

[twin dragon]

A debates adapted to these flawed beings, you can be consciously flawed or not

[sinful nimbus]

She's shown obeying GMS and sustaining "her light" which happens to be exactly what she's doing in the present day idk how else to interpret that cutscene

[whole holly]

not really, reputable psychologists disagree with that general statement

[sinful nimbus]

If the player was supposed to interpret Widow as having been a rebel who was punished they probably wouldn't have portrayed her like this and just... let the player assume that with no evidence

[twin dragon]

Being flawed isnt something you can avoid, but not being bad faith is smt you can

[whole holly]

true, but psychologists disregard debates as method of learning as a whole

[twin dragon]

I mean thats what we do here twin

[sinful nimbus]

why y'all looking at a disagreement and arguing the nature of disagreements and if they can be used to find truth bruh

[whole holly]

ehh, how much can you really learn from fictional game, let's be chill, we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously

[floral quiver]

And I interpret that as something happening recently

That Widow's torture was a relatively recent event.

Her proclaimed loyalty? Forced on her.

That memory? A relatively recent one showing a strike against a Weaver stronghold enacted by Widow herself and ending showing her own capture.

[whole holly]

i didn't want to be too deep into this convo but since you insist that, I would say that Research into "Identity-Protective Cognition" suggests that when we debate things we care about (even fictional lore!!!!), we perceive an attack on our argument as an attack on our intelligence or identity. This triggers a "backfire effect" where we actually become more certain of our original view when presented with contrary evidence.

[sinful nimbus]

???

[floral quiver]

All bases on facts shown

[twin dragon]

Debates lead to debates

[sinful nimbus]

what strike dawg the cutscene just shows her and some other weavers playing for GMS

That's not based on facts thats just fanfiction

The fact that they're playing for GMS also means this was before the foundation of the Citadel

So not "relatively recent"

If you need to make up a bunch of random stuff to support your interpretation its uh probably not an equally valid one

[floral quiver]

The introduction.

The memory has Hornet using the Needolin to enter a Weavenest with the Weavers inside scurrying away constantly.

I am taking that as Widow's memory that Hornet is experiencing.

[twin dragon]

I think that helps stars point

[floral quiver]

Not fanfic. Interpretation of scenes

[floral quiver]

Why?

[twin dragon]

I mean the flashback is more about the weavers itself

But if were lacing it to widow it could imply she still remembers her sisters, but warped this time

I dont really think its very relevant aside from the fact that widow is indeed a weaver

[sinful nimbus]

Well this isn't the cutscene I'm talking about for one the introduction isn't really relevant

[floral quiver]

Or the things shown are events that Widow took part in from the perspective of Widow.

[sinful nimbus]

For two what

[twin dragon]

Which one is it

[sinful nimbus]

She's leading out a "relatively recent" strike on the Weavenests for what purpose?

She would only have incentive to do that if she was loyal to GMS back during her reign which is... what I'm saying

[sinful nimbus]

The sequence immediately after where she and other weavers play for GMS

[twin dragon]

Then i dont think the intro is relevant whatsoever

[sinful nimbus]

That's what I just said

[twin dragon]

If i remember it correctly

[sinful nimbus]

The intro is a generic dream space

With a tutorial for activating weaver doors

Does Widow know about weaver doors yea probably does this mean this depicts a strike on a weavenest what no

[whole holly]

it takes courage to say it is irrelevant or otherwise devoid of information

[foggy fractal]

what are the weavers striking for? better wages?

[floral quiver]

... no.

The Weavers evacuated Pharkoom.

My interpretation is that it depicts a strike on a Weavenest outside Pharloom in order to capture Weavers and weaverkin.

[sinful nimbus]

Why are they making Weavenests outside of Pharloom

ts makes no sense Herrah didn't do that

They have no reason to build those

[twin dragon]

This seems kinda baseless

[sinful nimbus]

That too

[blissful harbor]

weren’t the weavenests made to hide themselves from GMS?? or am i tripping

[floral quiver]

The Weavers den.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

Not a weavenest

[whole holly]

let's all take a deep breath, and 1. Assume everyone in the chat has a piece of the puzzle.(for good faith discussion)

2. Look for "Explaining Away", are we ignoring certain cutscene details just because they don't fit our theory????

3.As Gadget suggested, start by stripping away assumptions (like "loyalty") and see what’s left in the raw text or scenes.(it can't be that hard)

[twin dragon]

Not all the weavers evacuated pharloom aswell

Widow certainly didnt

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not assuming loyalty the cutscene like very obviously displays that

[floral quiver]

We dont know that.

[sinful nimbus]

Also that's not what good faith is

[twin dragon]

Buddy

She berates hornet for being a child or "the ones that dared to flee"

Of*

[whole holly]

describe the physical actions in that scene without using the word "loyalty."

[floral quiver]

And that's not an objective fact because she's a madwoman! Insane, broken.

[sinful nimbus]

I already did you can scroll up

[floral quiver]

I wouldn't trust what Widow claims if she was the last person to speak

[sinful nimbus]

Does good faith entail making me repeat myself a bunch without using a specific word

[floral quiver]

Because she's insane

[blissful harbor]

you mean widow and other weavers sustaining GMS with a song, the talking about “for her light eternal”?
is that not loyalty

[whole holly]

this you mean scene where widow looks up?

[twin dragon]

Does that automatically invalidate anything she says?

[sinful nimbus]

Its true that she's mad but that doesn't mean we can't infer that she doesn't take kindly to fleeing from this dialogue

[floral quiver]

Yes. As a mentally broken character her interpretation of things is invalid because what she now believed and the truth do not have to coincide.

[sinful nimbus]

If she views fleeing as an act of heresy then she wouldn't be outside Pharloom unless she was a rebel at some point (baseless and inconsistent with the cutscene)

[whole holly]

it’s about actually testing if your 'obvious' conclusion holds water.

[sinful nimbus]

Can you not test that with the messages I've already sent

We don't need to do random good faith checks just engage with the discussion normally 😭

[whole holly]

eternal feels like curse rather that being loyal, i would argue widow looks up rather hopelessly

[blissful harbor]

everything surrounding widow points to her being loyal toSilk since the start though
nothing indicates she used to be a rebel, so why would we assume she’s crazy about this

[blissful harbor]

pretty sure the whole dialogue is for her light eternal our song sustains
that’s like a damn pledge if ever i heard one wdym

[sinful nimbus]

She's sustaining her light eternally as an act of rebellion

Bro think she sisyphus

[floral quiver]

Because her entire character is a mad, fervent loyalty to Silk. Her torture having caused said mad devotion is just taking narrative intent (Silk is an abusive and uncaring parent who assumes unconditional love without care in return is her right from both her biological and claimed children) and working from there. (Silk tortured one of her wayward children into the blind loyalty and love she craves, but that broke the victim's mind)

I'm taking what Widow thinks now as unreliable thanks to her madness.

[sinful nimbus]

It being in character with silk and it being supported by the games evidence is different

Its also in character with the weavers so like

[whole holly]

It’s far more consistent with the lore to see her as a broken weaver who has been forced to equate 'survival' with 'service, rather than being loyal just because.

[floral quiver]

This!

[sinful nimbus]

So consistent with the lore there is literally not a single piece of evidence that is consistent with it

[twin dragon]

Appetizer

[foggy fractal]

yum

[whole holly]

"If I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist"

[twin dragon]

Thats wtv you think

And no, its really not

[sinful nimbus]

Did Grand Mother Silk give Widow all the agonies that can exist and many that can not

[twin dragon]

Yet to grant them

[sinful nimbus]

Can you make me see it

[twin dragon]

Is this a reference to an ultrakill hell book or smt else

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah the 8-3 one

[twin dragon]

I knew it, smt was familiar

[whole holly]

if she was "loyal from the start," why would she care so much about the ones who fled? You only call someone a heretic if you feel they betrayed a shared burden. If she’s the one who stayed while they left, her anger is the coping mechanism of someone who couldn't leave...

[blissful harbor]

i mean for me, pinning someone’s silk and tearing off their mask feels like a weaver on weaver punishment, like First sinner being locked away in seals (alive presumably)

[sinful nimbus]

The characterization given to hell is lowk really cool

[twin dragon]

She looks down upon them and views her choice to be loyal as the right thing

[sinful nimbus]

Warped version of God and his ideas on free will

[twin dragon]

Eldritch horror my beloved

[whole holly]

i mean fact that just how different Widow and First Sinner punishments are kind of makes me question this point

[blissful harbor]

have you seen the slab

alk the punishments are different

[twin dragon]

If lucifer ends up appearing, hell grooming him would be neat

[sinful nimbus]

Fraud being New Peace because Hell thinks all peace is temporary 🗣️ 🔥

[whole holly]

Of course she views her 'choice' as the right thing. That’s how rationalization works.

[twin dragon]

Im inclined somewhat to believe that the new peaces in hell

[floral quiver]

Or a punishment to a disloyal daughter who has lost the right to use the silk given to her by her divine Mother.

And a destruction of a rebellious identity, to be replaced by one of loyalty and love as she should have always been

[sinful nimbus]

wym

[twin dragon]

Mhm, then she wasnt forced into it was she?

[floral quiver]

... wow.

[plain ruin]

Widow debate?

[whole holly]

are you arguing that because she believes she's right, she must have chosen it? That ignores the entire concept of indoctrination and coercion.

[floral quiver]

This!

[twin dragon]

Hell putting everyone who was last in fraud, as supposedly the most advanced species only to end themselves

Something something the new peace books aswell

[sinful nimbus]

I assume they went to all layers because of Ocean Styx and the Ferryman's diary

[twin dragon]

Worded that poorly but ofc its not what i think

[twin dragon]

They did

Maybe the leaders

[whole holly]

so what exactly is your conclusion?

[twin dragon]

Widow did stay by choice and got lobotomized by thr weavers

As a cut sprite implies

She specifically looks down upon that fact

[plain ruin]

Widow was broken by the other Weavers as punishment for remaining loyal to GMS or perhaps for turning back towards GMS, maybe after seeing First Sinner get locked away. The other Weavers caught her and broke her, cast her into exile, and this caused her to go from loyal to GMS to unquestionably devoted to her, a complete fanatic. She seeks to awaken GMS out of devotion and out of a desire for revenge against the other Weavers.

[twin dragon]

Fs was jailed post citadel

[whole holly]

cut content is cut for reason, it's just not canon or relevant to narrative, what other evidence do you have? actual one

[twin dragon]

Imo

[plain ruin]

Yeah FS was jailed after GMS was already asleep

Weavers jailed her is what I was saying

[twin dragon]

My subjective evidence is that 1. Gms couldnt force her own children into servitude and 2. Who the fuck would specifically disable her silk with pins

[whole holly]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say she 'chose' to stay and then say her brain was physically altered to ensure she couldn't think for herself.

[plain ruin]

Sisters betrayed one of their Sisters, Widow didn’t like this, she turned back to the old, comfortable ways

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not using this as evidence because cut content isn't canon like already stated but I do want to mention that this went hard asf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c27hXwdtfWw

[twin dragon]

The intention stays clear

[floral quiver]

Silk. As punishment. Because she doesnt deserve the ability to use divine silk.

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah

[twin dragon]

It couldve not fit the cutscene but it does fit the narrative

You can use this somewhat as evidence

[whole holly]

taking away gift parent gave you is such a classical trope, especially in this case

[twin dragon]

With metallic pins? And done by who in silks service?

[floral quiver]

Right?!

[foggy fractal]

why did they do that to her? smh weavers are such jerks

[plain ruin]

That’s the plot

[floral quiver]

By the Citadel during its Haunting.

[plain ruin]

SK lore is solved

[twin dragon]

What

Isnt widow pre rebellion

Im inclined to believe she is

[floral quiver]

Unknown

[twin dragon]

As yk, she knows about the weavers that fled

[floral quiver]

So?

She's a direct servant of Silk

[plain ruin]

I think Widow’s the Twelfth of the First penitent listed in that one slab lore tablet, so she would be after the rebellion, after the construction of the Slab and the cage of the First Sinner

[twin dragon]

This is literally not feasible as 1. All of the weavers either remained in their spires or fled 2. Implied thst Silk bound all of the weavers she captured

[floral quiver]

Yes. My interpretation is that she was a fled Weaver, captured and broken into love and service by the Citadel under orders of Silk.

[whole holly]

and that's understatement , she has no independence whatsoever

[twin dragon]

Could be but having her around during the rebellion could be a nuisance

[twin dragon]

Why was she so different from the other 3 or 4 weavers captured lmao

[floral quiver]

In what sense?

[frank dove]

Wait where do I find those things (not in game, like where in wiki)

[plain ruin]

She wouldn’t be a nuisance if she only turned back to GMS after seeing First Sinner get jailed by the other Weavers

[frank dove]

Where can I find lore tablets

On wiki

[twin dragon]

The other weavers are implied to be bound to gms by that point

[plain ruin]

Should be on the Slab page

[twin dragon]

The loose broken cages around the cradle

[plain ruin]

Those were partial Weavers as well, not full

[twin dragon]

I mean would she really do that if she knew that her mother lied about her very existence beforehand?

[twin dragon]

Weaver nonetheless

Theres also just not a written tablet on widow

[floral quiver]

Unknown.

In fact we don't have stated knowledge on what Silk actually does with Weavers captured, if I recall.

[whole holly]

So she watched her sisters get binded, and she stayed to serve for the thing that was binding them? i wonder why she is 'loyal'...

[twin dragon]

Yeah but like. The fuck they went

[floral quiver]

Unknown

Potentially bound to service like Widow. Potentially eaten

[twin dragon]

Again, she looked down upon them

[floral quiver]

Unknown

[floral quiver]

So?

[twin dragon]

And after what they did to her, she wont really feel shit

[floral quiver]

She's an insane, broken creature with barely any will of her own

[twin dragon]

Thats what losing your mask implies yed

[floral quiver]

Why should we take her current opinions as something she'd believe if unbroken?

[twin dragon]

Who wouldve cracked her open like an almond?

[floral quiver]

Silk. To get rid of a rebellious mind

[whole holly]

what part of this doesn't channel get, even her identity is stripped and she is literally broken why are we looking at "she looked down upon them" at face value?..

[twin dragon]

Shes insane. Doesnt discredit her from anything she says, she still remembers wtv happened beforr

[plain ruin]

Widow could’ve had a different interpretation to this news. She could’ve seen this as a sign of affection, love from their holy mother.

[frank dove]

Oh yeah I get it bc we know weavers are 'of the first'

First sinner is first of the first?

[plain ruin]

Or maybe she wasn’t made aware of the cause for FS being locked away

[twin dragon]

Man the other weavers went crazy about it

[plain ruin]

We don’t know how far that information traveled beyond the mind of FS

[frank dove]

So does that mean first created or 1st to be punished though

Architects at least are in order of creation, right?

[floral quiver]

It very much does.

You dont agree with an insane person because their interpretation is valid. You agree because they generally get violent when their untrue worldview is challenged

[plain ruin]

We just know that FS knew, and that she was imprisoned for apostasy.

[whole holly]

if she is insane, how is she reliable narrator and how is her perspective objective?...

[plain ruin]

First Sinner is the first penitent of the Slab, though I believe this specifically is saying that she was the First Weaver. First of the first children of Pharloom

[twin dragon]

That doesnt make your point very valid either way as yk, as lace, whos supposedly moulded to gmss desires really just hates her

[plain ruin]

A double entendre

[twin dragon]

Our only source of info

[whole holly]

then you have to read between the lines... not just take her words at face value...

[twin dragon]

Youd rather trust your baseless gut than the only somewhat reliable source of info on the character

[floral quiver]

She hates her because Silk is an uncaring mother who dismisses Laces centuries long loyalty and threw her sibling into the trash. Not because she's insane or broken.

[twin dragon]

You can keep twisting your interpretation around what you want it to be

Bad faith remember?

[plain ruin]

I mean Lace is definitely a little insane

[floral quiver]

We're not twisting anything. Our interpretation has been consistent.

[twin dragon]

Except we see that is not true because she has no agency at that moment and when she does, shes willing to throw the kingdom down for her

[floral quiver]

Who?

[whole holly]

It’s not 'bad faith' to look at a character with spikes in her spine and a missing mask and conclude she’s been mutilated...

[twin dragon]

Gms

[floral quiver]

Lace?

[twin dragon]

Lace does crave for her attention despite that

[twin dragon]

Yeah shes def been mutilated

No shit

[whole holly]

she doesn't have broken will or stolen identity

[twin dragon]

Lace is quite broken

[floral quiver]

So?

GMS loving her daughter doesnt mean anything if she's abusive and dismissive.

Abusive parents generally love their children.

[plain ruin]

“Manic fencer who delights in battle”

Lace is not handling this lack of attention very well at all

[twin dragon]

She does accurately kinda depict on what their relationship is like

[plain ruin]

Her mind can’t take it

[twin dragon]

And shes insane. Moulded to wtv she wantes her to be yet imperfect

[floral quiver]

That's not insanity. That's trauma.

[twin dragon]

You can tell me a source more reliable than widow herself that talks about it specifically

[twin dragon]

Insanity caused by trauma

[whole holly]

You're describing a character who has been unmasked, pinned, and lobotomized, and you're calling it a 'choice' because you take her words and actions at face value? That’s like saying the Hollow Knight 'chose' to contain the Radiance because he stayed in the Black Egg. He didn't choose anything... he was built and chained to do it. Widow is the same, just with pins instead of chains....

[twin dragon]

Im off to sleep anyways cya

[floral quiver]

No. Lace is sane. She's majorly traumatized, but not broken.

[whole holly]

If we’re all agreeing that Widow is 'mutilated,' 'insane,' 'broken,' and 'moulded to whatever GMS wanted her to be,' then the word 'Loyalty' shouldn't even be in the conversation...

[whole holly]

she still has will and self-agency

[floral quiver]

Her will and agency is deeply important for her character arc

[twin dragon]

Defaced by her sisters who have been noted to do cruel things to whoever stands between them and their goals, now clinging to her mother

[plain ruin]

She is absolutely broken

[floral quiver]

Realizing she has will and agency, and has had it all along despite her mothers abuse and neglect is the climax of her story

[twin dragon]

Weavers arent, lace is

Partly

[twin dragon]

That doesnt make her sane what

[floral quiver]

Trauma reaction.

Not insanity.

[whole holly]

If Widow is 'clinging' to the mother neglected her after being 'defaced' by her sisters, that’s not regression, not exactly loyalty...

[twin dragon]

She delights in slaughter and tries to cling onto her abusive mother, its trauma induced but shes insane

[whole holly]

she has will and self-agency which is what we were conveying

[twin dragon]

We dont know how gms treated the weavers

[plain ruin]

She’s traumatized, yes, and her inability to deal with this trauma is causing her to go insane. She’s manic, she’s broken, she is not having a good time

[floral quiver]

Doesn't make her insane.

[twin dragon]

But she id

Is

[twin dragon]

Even if neglected shes the only one that could still accept her. Now that her sisters basically lobotomized her

[whole holly]

First Sinner's rage says otherwise

[twin dragon]

Shes mad at the fact that their own religion is based on nothing

Now that she knows the truth

And that she lied to them

[floral quiver]

Her mind is still hers.

She doesnt believe anything that is entirely divorced from the world around her.

When she is given the chance to leave she does.

[whole holly]

i actually have to go to sleep, goodbye yall

[plain ruin]

She stabs her mother, willingly plunges herself into the void, and rejoices at the thought of the world crumbling down as she drowns in the abyss

[twin dragon]

Widow still remembers her stuff, she still has remnants of will that went to clinging onto someone she thinks was a goof mother

[floral quiver]

She doesn't though. That's what Widow's broken mind assumes, but given the rest of the narrative that is probably untrue

[twin dragon]

??

Given the rest of the narrative its literally implied

Why are you doing the same thing i supposedly do

Gms couldnt even break her own 2 children

[floral quiver]

I disagree with the narrative assumptions you make.

I take the narrative to be saying that Silk is an uncaring and dismissive individual who does not "accept" her children but breaks them, whether physically, mentally or emotionally. Who assumes that them loving her and remaining loyal with no effort on her part and without care is how things should be.

[floral quiver]

Then why does one of them hate her enough to be willing to die if she does and the other spend their time in abject confoundery on why they have been abandoned?

[twin dragon]

I dont think she accepts them as they are, she specifically engineers those children loyal to her even before imposing any punishment, most of the plotting against her was done in secrecy

[plain ruin]

Thought you just said Lace wasn’t broken?

[twin dragon]

Not in her favour

[floral quiver]

I said she wasn't insane.

Her reactions are entirely within the realm of the sound minded.

[floral quiver]

?

[plain ruin]

You said she wasn’t broken

[floral quiver]

Ah, I meant mentally. Like Widow.

[plain ruin]

Lace’s mental state is absolutely broken, she’s been driven to insanity as a result

[twin dragon]

She couldnt make them any more loyal to her

Shes repeated the same mistake twice

Thrice

Mb

[floral quiver]

Yes?

That's the point.

A mother cant force loyalty unless the end point is complete mental and emotional insanity.

Lace isn't truly loyal

She feigns loyalty in order to stay alive, unpunished and to potential actually recieve love

Widow is loyal and unconditionally loving toward Silk. And mentally, physically and emotionally broken because of that.

[twin dragon]

Widow is clinging to the only thing left in her life

Lace outright hates silk, even if she tries to impress her only to always reach futility

Even if theyre both insane, theyre insane for different reasons

Silks supposed perfection always leads to the same result

Thats kinda the point

[floral quiver]

I disagree.

In my interpretation her loyalty isn't genuine. It isn't because Silk is deserving of loyalty. It is a loyalty forced onto her by her displeased Mother.

She believes it's true and genuine but only because her Mother indoctrinated her into it through torture and the destruction of her identity.

[floral quiver]

And my interpretation doesnt say otherwise.

[floral quiver]

Lace hates Silk, but she fears her more. Why would she fear her? Fear of being punished, like Phantom.

So she feigns loyalty, follows her Mother's commands and edicts because if she doesn't she'll end up punished and "corrected".

[candid linden]

what do bugs even do for fun

[worn stone]

do you guys think the "sister" in sister splinter name might refer to like nuns/worshipers. so like sister splinter might be a worshiper of nyleth or something in shellwood. I've always wondered about the sister part of sister splinter name and ive seen some theories that she might be related to nyleth like a sister or distant sister but i was curious about the other definitions of sister especially because this game has so much religious imagery and wondered if anybody else had a similar thought

[floral quiver]

Dice games. Knife throwing.

Those are two definite "fun things" that bugs do for entertainment

[eternal crater]

Singing wont be included? I mean its the citadel of song

[floral quiver]

True

[random aspen]

i think shes a maniac who took over shellwood cus she can

[floral quiver]

Just giving two of the things that are actively called out as entertainment and thus fun

[random aspen]

called sister cus shes a big sister of all those enemies she summons

and cus sister splinter rolls off the tongue

[floral quiver]

Not everything has deep nuanced hidden lore. 🙂

[random aspen]

yeah, and seems relatively new

[floral quiver]

As much as that would be cool.

[random aspen]

like she hasnt been taking over shellwood for too long

if she was there'd be a lot lot more of those enemies

[floral quiver]

Mhm

[worn stone]

hmm thats true , i just always felt sister as a peculiar title and with a lot of the religious things in the game it felt like something more than just a cool alliteration title

but i also have no idea how plant like bugs would worship

[random aspen]

tbh not a lot of bosses have much lore cus theyre residents of pharloom and all roads lead to the citadel

exceptions are like father of the flame

i think whatever we get in sea of sorrow will have tons of lore though

[near jasper]

Why the hell do just regular Plants have needolin dialogue

[floral quiver]

That kind of thinking can lead to very wild interpretations of things. Not everything is deep and twisty.

[floral quiver]

Which ones?

[near jasper]

One sec

[floral quiver]

Mhm

[random aspen]

2nd enemy is the ugliest enemy ever

[worn stone]

true but i would argue that trying to figure out the purpose of the authors/game creator intent on certain titles is important. especially with the pattern of some bosses having common religious titles like father and sister are used by nuns and priest and we got father of the flame which feels like a godlike leader for the flame cultist and sister splinter etc. trying to think if there is a third boss with a religious title

[floral quiver]

Most likely because "plants" in Shellwood like that aren't just plants. They're children of Nyleth.

[random aspen]

i think they did fotf cus it also rolls off the tongue

[floral quiver]

Yeah, the religion in Pharloom doesnt really have "Father" as a religious nomimative as far as I remember

[near jasper]

Why does this have no Dream nail dialogue but the silksong plants do

[random aspen]

also the word sister is used in all sorts of different ways

[floral quiver]

"Sister" and "brother" are also not titles of religious sect membership, but a general religious assumption of family

[random aspen]

phantom calls lace sister for obvious reasons and we have the ending called sister of the void, even tho hornet and lace arent actual sisters

[floral quiver]

Because unlike Nyleth, Unn isn't literally the mother of the plants in its domain.

[random aspen]

wait is it sisters or sister

if its sister its just referring to hornet being a sibling of tk

its sister isnt it

mb

[near jasper]

Sister

[eternal crater]

i think the ending sister of the void relates to the knight and hornet

[random aspen]

alriiight

[random aspen]

https://klipy.com/gifs/gumball-ricardo-waterson

[floral quiver]

The plants in Hollow knight are just plants while the enemy "plants" in Silksong are actively part of or born from a greater sentience

[near jasper]

Its kinda weird the plants also dont have the silk thing for haunted bugs when you needolin

[random aspen]

well either way the word sister for the whole game is just used to refer to characters who are literally sisters, would be kinda odd for sister splinter to randomly be religious

[floral quiver]

Wouldn't be surprised if it was a "we just forgot" on the devs part.

[near jasper]

Maybe nyleth is Just based like that

[random aspen]

maybe they cant dream idk 💔

the ones in hk

[floral quiver]

Literal and spiritual sisterhood.

But yeah not religious title sisterhood

[near jasper]

Some npcs do call us sister

[floral quiver]

I mean, she is.

She's the only old ruler who got the Citadel to make a deal that they seem to have kept with her rather than just doing what they want or reneging.

[random aspen]

this isnt really lore but nobody seems to want to live in bottom far fields

probably cus of the lava but we dont meet any npc other than seamstress

and seamstress is forced to be there

[floral quiver]

The Karakid and Skarr just let the Citadel fight them, while the Verdanians tried to make a deal but got reneged on cause what are they gonna do, try and stop the Citadel?

[floral quiver]

No one lives in Far Fields at all. The rest stop is transiatory rather than an actual settlement.

[near jasper]

Nyleth is also keeping seth alive for presumably decades more than usual while dormant

[random aspen]

karmelita is in far fields

[floral quiver]

The entire place is a frontier province

[random aspen]

just at the top far from lava

[floral quiver]

Now, I mean

No one lives there now.

[random aspen]

right we killed gurr as well

[floral quiver]

Karmelita's domain is mostly Hunter's March

[random aspen]

and i think sprintmaster is just passing by

[whole holly]

who's sister is sister splinter?

why can she low-key control the branches?

[floral quiver]

Thus why it's a "march*, a contested border territory

[random aspen]

pharloom is so lame why did nobody make a gigantic colosseum in the gigantic corpse

[near jasper]

If void tendrils and void threads in the background react to the needolin why do black threaded enemies not react to the needolin

[whole holly]

interesting question

[random aspen]

did the ants just look at the enormous hollow corpse in far fields and ignore it

is it like unstable why are they not building anything

[dull moss]

The presence of a Weavenest means that the Far Fields were likely never settled

[near jasper]

Do they need to?

[random aspen]

theyre bad at building ig, they can sculpt tho

[random aspen]

i mean why wouldnt they

huge free space and it looks cool

[floral quiver]

Hi again Nika! 👋

[whole holly]

i am not gonna lie guys i miss "is Palestag/Greyroot/Fayforn/Father of the Flame/Nyleth/Eva a Higher Being" questions

[random aspen]

maybe cus they didnt hunt it and would hurt their ego

[whole holly]

hey

[near jasper]

The skarr are weirdly under developed all around

[whole holly]

we actually had discussions, it is too niche now

[floral quiver]

I would say yes. If only because godhood doesn't need immortality. Just worthiness to be worshipped.

[random aspen]

oh i get it its cus a certain ant couldnt enter the small entrance

[whole holly]

here is a thing, Gods and Higher Beings aren't always the same, Higher Beings are beings above all others while Gods are beings with great power

[floral quiver]

True!

[near jasper]

Greyroot isnt a higher being

[random aspen]

greyroot and nyleth are pseudo legendaries 💔

[whole holly]

Higher Being is also associated with Fathomless Beings, Higher Caste, and even Intelligence

[whole holly]

lol

[random aspen]

theres actually a ton of pseudo higher beings

[near jasper]

Yeah

[floral quiver]

And those arent necessarily different categories, but synonyms.

[random aspen]

also is grimm a full higher being or is it just nmh, wouldnt he be since he was created by nmh and not some random common bug possessed by it

[floral quiver]

I find the drive to catagorize things into neat boxes to be kinda unhelpful.

If only because I'm certain that the devs haven't done so.

[floral quiver]

Higher being.

[near jasper]

Grimm and the Troupe are very low level demigods imo

[floral quiver]

Or low level divinities

[dull moss]

Godhood seems far less exclusive than Higher Being status. The Godseekers view even beings like Vengefly King and Gruzmother as gods

[random aspen]

i think the nmh rivals the radiance in power tbh

like it clearly has a stronger control over whatever its possessing unlike the infection which can be resisted

with the masks

[near jasper]

Old man on life support vs old woman on life support

[floral quiver]

Note that that's the Godseeker's interpretation of godhood. Specific to her and not universal

[random aspen]

and the mutation from the masks is stronger than disgusting infection pulsating orange stuff

brumm becomes hot

[dull moss]

I hesitate to say that all claimed “gods” really are that, but the Godseekers are clearly attuning to something which is not present in every bug

[whole holly]

Yeah exactly, that’s what I meant

[floral quiver]

Strength. Literal or spiritual.

The attunement puts an imprint into the mind of the Godseeker.

[random aspen]

godseekers call anything god 💔

[floral quiver]

Effectively

[whole holly]

Yeah you are right but I would argue they have slightly different contexts of usage

[random aspen]

theres husk and basic vengefly statues in godhome

in the foreground and stuff

[near jasper]

I mean godseeker does just have a literal "false god" (her own words) on the pantheon I dont trust her that much

[whole holly]

I mean I don’t think that’s supposed to be taken at face value rather than heart of architecture

[whole holly]

She takes every opportunity to shit on old gods

[near jasper]

Godseeker would worship the hell out of craggler

[floral quiver]

Her gods were weak. She searches for gods who are strong.

[whole holly]

I assume they were just strong beings with some power

[random aspen]

why godseeker dont gaf about nmh 😭

[whole holly]

Yeah

[random aspen]

she acknowledges UNN but not nmh

[floral quiver]

Because the heart is not a god. It is something that empowers gods

[dull moss]

Yes, strength is required, but imo the most important part is a strong affinity towards a concept (such as motherhood or nothingness) which separates one from common bugs

[whole holly]

She does she doesn’t have separate room talking about it because she attuned it in NKG fight

[random aspen]

i mean aint that what pale king did

[whole holly]

Godtuner says that it tunes beings with great power

[floral quiver]

Yes, but that is entirely personal interpretation on her part. How the imprints are organized isnt truth.

[random aspen]

TECHNICALLY he doesnt appear in godhome just his throne I GUESS

[near jasper]

I mean we can just probably kill nmh by banishing the troupe thats not really a strong god

[floral quiver]

No. Or rather his empowering of bugs is entirely based on a narrative very favorable to him. A monarch who rules a kingdom.

[whole holly]

They will just relocate

[dull moss]

Something exists for Godseeker to use, even if it’s only a shadow of divinity

[floral quiver]

They're mental imprints. There doesnt have to be some spark of divinity for her to imprint them onto her mind.

Just the tuner

[near jasper]

Do higher beings need worshippers to live

[floral quiver]

Considering what she attunes to, any claim of divinity is suspect

[random aspen]

why would he need the 5 great knights if he can defend himself

[whole holly]

Pale Beings don’t, higher beings need to be sustained in one way or another

[floral quiver]

Who's to say he actually can?

[whole holly]

At least that’s the pattern

[random aspen]

maybe the great knights were white ladys idea

she seems to like them in her dialogue

[floral quiver]

The assumption that the Pale King has martial prowess is strange given his role and how he's described

[random aspen]

if he himself isnt powerful and can only give power he would want 5 body guards

[floral quiver]

He's a ruler, a politician who happens to be divine.

[dull moss]

Her methods also work for beings like AbsRad and Shadelord. In any case godhood is an ill defined state of being compared to Higher Beings

[random aspen]

so how is nmh not a god

[near jasper]

Godseeker didnt feel like making a statue for it

[floral quiver]

Both of those things actively exist.

Which is my point

[random aspen]

https://klipy.com/gifs/clash-royale-crying

[whole holly]

Nightmare Heart is heart of Grimm but Nightmare King Grimm or Troupemaster Grimm?

[floral quiver]

She doesn't need divinity to imprint something in her mind that she assumes is a god.

[whole holly]

We fight higher beings we attune to such as Absolute Radiance and NKG

[floral quiver]

That she got two actual divinities is happenstance given the other things she considers gods

[whole holly]

What even is divinity? Is it standard barrier or spectrum?

[floral quiver]

Mystery! As it should be

[random aspen]

does sly know great slash, dash slash or cyclone slash ahh question

[floral quiver]

And most likely a spectrum

[random aspen]

wrong reply tf

[random aspen]

theyre the same thing

nmh uses grimm as a vessel

it just lives in him

and it created grimm for that purpose

[floral quiver]

Nightmare king Grimm is Godseeker's mental imprint of Grimm and not actually real.

[whole holly]

I assume it is subjective… because it can’t solely attributed to essence, soul

[random aspen]

and wants another grimm cus current grimm will die of old age or something

[random aspen]

is this aura

[dull moss]

Considering the lack of a clear definition I wonder if divinity is an actual thing that exists, or only societal in nature

[floral quiver]

?

[whole holly]

That’s not true we fight him outside of godhome , if we complete ritual and dream nail Grimm

[whole holly]

I am talking about divinity in this case

[floral quiver]

Aaah, miss remembered. apologies

[whole holly]

They are noted to be same, they all serve one goal rather than person or higher being

[floral quiver]

I think it's societal.

Effectively "divinity" is a word

[whole holly]

That’s why shamans solely talk about caste and power, they aren’t interested in divine branding because they trade in power

[near jasper]

Why do the silk cocoons not get consumed by void when you see the void masses in styx's nest in act 3

[dull moss]

It would be fitting, as both games have themes of religious oppression and indoctrination. Godhood is always used to control bugs

[whole holly]

Yes, you hit nail on the head with that statement

[floral quiver]

Even the goodly Pale King uses faith to control the masses

[whole holly]

It’s accurate

[floral quiver]

One of the biggest reasons why I dont take his or his loyal retainers words at face value.

[near jasper]

How the hell did styx not have any issues when he lives in silk and was 3 feet away from 2 void masses

[floral quiver]

They have sociopolitical reasons to talk their lord up as good and just and righteous

[whole holly]

Are we expecting higher beings or old heart in sea of sorrows?

[floral quiver]

I think probably old heart

[whole holly]

Yeah central mortal figure of some kind

[dull moss]

They believe that the Pale King is the only thing stopping them from being mindless husks, so it’s to be expected that they revere him

[floral quiver]

Yes?

That just makes any grandstanding more suspect because we know it's not true

Bugs didnt need the Pale King for their sapience yet he claims that they do and effectively that they should be grateful for it.

[dull moss]

I do suspect that at least Hallownest’s core citizenry were uplifted by PK and thus made dependent on him

[glacial warren]

Not entirely sure how much intelligence the Pale King bequeathed onto his subjects, but we know it was enough that the Bugs became capable of building grand inventions and complex architecture and machinery as a result.

I.E. all the conveyor belts and even full-on mining golems in the Peaks.

[random harbor]

Dream Nail: Howling Cliffs - Higher Being corpse - "...No king... No mind... Release..."

...No king... No mind... Release...

@starpengu used /dream-nail area: Howling Cliffs name: Higher Being corpse - "...No king... No mind... Release..."

[dull moss]

Of course the claim that intelligence doesn’t exist outside Hallownest is bogus

[sinful nimbus]

🧐

Was he lying about ts

[floral quiver]

Again. If you take the monarch of an expansive kingdom at his word.

I do not.

[sinful nimbus]

He also writes about uplifting minds in his personal record

Not sure why he or the corpse demonstrating what he says is true would lie there

[glacial warren]

I would. He’s more than just a monarch, he’s a Deity.

[marble oasis]

FACT: those were all Mantis inventions

[glacial warren]

How? They only made at most wooden structures, bone levers, and a sick-as-hell cage for the Lords to duel challengers in.

Mantises have some level of ingenuity but not nearly to the scope of what machinations the Hallownest Bugs were capable of. The Mantises more relied on their own sheer combat ability rather than tools or machines anyhow.

[dull moss]

The Mantises are quite advanced actually. They work both metal and stone

[near jasper]

A bit Weird Hornet says anyone can learn how to use the needolin to styx

[glacial warren]

Hell it was to the point that they put up a sign welcoming despondent Hallownest Bugs into their lands during the Infection.

[near jasper]

Satire

[runic plume]

I dont get the full lore thing with how act 3 everythimng turns void touched and the whole GMS thing can soemone explain it

[floral quiver]

See, I don't trust the Pale King or his and his retainers interpretation of things.

[glacial warren]

I mean. Still, their machine knowledge is only a sliver of what the King gave his subjects. Technology seems to be his particular strong suit, if the mechanical Void constructs are any indication.

[sinful nimbus]

Silk is made of soul, so the haunting is soul based, and void can merge with that ala the void spells in the first game

[near jasper]

Gms is in the void now, her silk has void now and its still getting to pharloom

[marble oasis]

what reason does he have to propagandize in his private journal

[sinful nimbus]

And when its shown to be true in the game

[runic plume]

alr thx also how did gms get the void did us defating her cause that

[near jasper]

The trap we built with caretaker

It threw her there

[runic plume]

oh so we js caused this whole thing

alr ty

[floral quiver]

Posterity and belief in a lie.

Say a lie long enough it becomes true mentally.

[glacial warren]

I trust the Pale King’s word on himself, since he’s a thing of logic and wouldn’t exaggerate himself. The word of his worshippers should very much be taken with a grain of salt, as they vastly exaggerate his attributes and abilities since most of what their liege is like is left to interpretation.

These Bugs live their whole lives worshipping a God no one ever sees. No one meets him in person and so all they have to go off of is the rumor mill and word of mouth.

[floral quiver]

And I don't because he's not just a diety, he's a monarch with good sociopolitical reasons to talk himself up even to himself.

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah idk why you would assume PK is lying or irrational here

He's demonstrably correct

[dull moss]

Uplifting bugs is done like 4 separate times. It’s a real ability Higher Beings have

[sinful nimbus]

?

[floral quiver]

Other bugs existed before the coming of the Pale King. Other bugs had sapience before him.

[near jasper]

4?

[sinful nimbus]

This is straight from Team Cherry but Godseeker and the Kingsoul description corroborate this

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah duh

But he still grants those without it (at least some of them) sapience

[glacial warren]

I don’t think so. He’s a harbinger of logic and critical thinking. He’s more a being of thought and planning than of emotions. Also might explain why he’s such a recluse despite his position.

[dull moss]

Mosskin, Moths, Weavers, PK bugs

[marble oasis]

Unn and Radiance just created bugs out of nothing

They didn’t uplift previously existing bestial bugs

[near jasper]

Moths and mosskin were created not uplofted

[dull moss]

True, but I think it’s related

[sinful nimbus]

Oh he also left a dragon corpse the size of an entire area who he reincarnated from and contains magic soul BS inside its body

[marble oasis]

And we know that at least some of the bugs of his kingdom did in fact get a mind from him from the corpses in the Cliffs

[sinful nimbus]

Most deity deity to ever exist

[glacial warren]

Ye. Though I think what the King gives is less Sapience and moreso Sentience. He gives Intelligence, the ability to think and innovate and invent.

[marble oasis]

Like “PK gives bugs sapience” is not mutually exclusive with “Bugs have sapience naturally”

[marble oasis]

That’s what sapience is brother I’m afraid

[dull moss]

He was too stingy to give them cool powers

[whole holly]

True but I think they want to play into overall narrative pale king used like eternal kingdom, only kingdom and that pale king created world and everything in it

[glacial warren]

I think he was more concerned about building a stable civilization than making his people stronger.

[floral quiver]

It is. Because him giving bugs sapience is one of his major claims to fame. It's what makes him godly.

And it's untrue given that bugs already have sapience

[marble oasis]

He still does that though

You literally just said what I said

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't make it untrue wym

He never said he gave EVERYONE sapience

No one is claiming that

[glacial warren]

Actually come to think of, was the King even aware of how much his people over-hyped him up?

[near jasper]

The knight lose most its memories when it leaves hallownest no?

[floral quiver]

The claim of sentience granting is universal. There are no qualifiers.

[sinful nimbus]

What

[marble oasis]

All of the “Husk” species type of bug, which makes up a majority of his subjects, received their sapience from him

[glacial warren]

Given the guy spent all day in his castle building Void robots or doing diplomatics in foreign territories.

[marble oasis]

Quirrel is the most salient example

[sinful nimbus]

"If some people already have a thing you can't give it to people without that thing"

[whole holly]

He pretty much did when his propaganda tablets said give up your mind to leave the kingdom to every reader and fact that some believed pk created world and everything in it which assumes that mantis sapience was also from him

And so on

[sinful nimbus]

The tablets are written from the perspective of when Hallownest is the only kingdom in the far distant future which is delusional but not because of that reason

[glacial warren]

I mean. Remember, none of this comes from him, though. All this exaggeration came from his subjects.

[sinful nimbus]

The latter isn't his doing

[near jasper]

Pk is like those people that sell vitamins on tiktok, yes its good for you but if you already have enough its not gonna do anything

[marble oasis]

The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.

“I, the Wyrm, expanded the minds of bugs so that they may devote themselves to me (i.e. the subjects of my kingdom were not sapient)”

“Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed (My kingdom may last forever at the cost of what I did to my children)”

[whole holly]

Who are lore tablets written by ?

[foggy fractal]

yummy vitamin

[marble oasis]

Nothing about this is exaggerated or a lie

[glacial warren]

The King is only very very very vaguely, loosely known because he’s such an infamous recluse. Everything about him is left to his people’s interpretations.

[glacial warren]

Not a clue, but presumably by the upper echelons of Hallownest.

[whole holly]

I am not talking about these, I am talking about one on howling cliffs which is warning about leaving kingdom

[glacial warren]

Like the most anyone ever genuinely sees of their God is his iconography being everywhere across the land and the Idols in his image but that’s about it.

[floral quiver]

Other than sapience existing before he did.

I don't trust a monarch who's glory rides on him being the literal bringer of sapience when there are kingdoms that arent his and are older than his.

[whole holly]

Pale King is implied to have written it due to fact that context is personal to him

[floral quiver]

I assume that he's lying as an act of propaganda

[glacial warren]

Not sure. We have no means to confirm nor deny if he wrote those.

Plus again he’s kind of a recluse. He doesn’t often venture out of his home unless it was to perform diplomatics with the nearby foreign tribes.

[glacial warren]

His people promoted the propaganda regarding him, not the King himself. He possibly wasn’t even aware of how much he was being mythologized given he’s such a recluse.

[whole holly]

not really, context is personal to him such as lore tablet in black egg and so on

[whole holly]

we have no means to confirm that... royal retainers did indeed interact with pale king

[dull moss]

Sapience existing before Hallownest doesn’t prove his ability is false. We literally see GMS do it on screen and sapience existed in Pharloom before that

[glacial warren]

We know the one in the Egg was written by him, as this was meant for the eyes of his creation, the Pure Vessel. It was the most personal and most delicate of all his inventions.

[whole holly]

"Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
These blasted plains stretch never-ending. There is no world beyond.
Those foolish enough to traverse this void must pay the toll and relinquish the precious mind this kingdom grants. " this was written by him too considering message is to higher beings

[whole holly]

Pale King implies kingdom grants mind universally regardless of species

[dull moss]

It can’t be, because Higher Beings are innately sapient

[near jasper]

How does binding crests work

[whole holly]

regardless one way or another it is from Pale King due to style of lore tablets

[glacial warren]

Not really. The message is meant for his Higher Beings, I.E. the Bugs he elevated. This message is intended for those who were mentally upgraded by his presence.

[near jasper]

In universe

[glacial warren]

Basically as a warning that they’d lose their Higher Being status if they crossed the threshold.

[floral quiver]

And we don't see the King do it.

So it's suspect considering he's a monarch with a kingdom and that kingdom would be much more glorious and worth living in if it's leader literally made its citizens intelligent.

[glacial warren]

Not sure if this is enforced because the King didn’t want his people abandoning him or if his unique ability does have some kind of range limitation.

[whole holly]

there is no world beyond is still a lie? also how do we know it is only for bugs he elevated? can other bugs not read it?

[dull moss]

Why would it be much more glorious and worth living in? That’s not correlated with the source of the citizens’ sapience

[whole holly]

this is straight up wrong for example

[marble oasis]

He DID bring sapience

Just not All of it which was never claimed

[glacial warren]

It’s possible he intended it to only be seen by those affected by him, yes. As for the ‘no world beyond’, i’m not entirely sure. It might be simply that he’s unaware if there is any other land beyond the mountains.

[whole holly]

"Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
These blasted plains stretch never-ending. There is no world beyond.
Those foolish enough to traverse this void must pay the toll and relinquish the precious mind this kingdom grants. " wrong

[glacial warren]

It isn’t. The King’s exaggeration comes from how his people view him because, again, 99% of all info regarding him is left to interpretation due to him being a hermit.

[dull moss]

He surely knows that Wyrms create kingdoms

[whole holly]

but do we know that as fact, can we confirm it?

[near jasper]

What makes a bug binded become a crest

[edgy nebula]

i subscribe to the theory that because hallownest was going to be eternal, he called it the last kindom because realistically it would be the last standing

[floral quiver]

By his own words. Which I dont trust.

I dont trust the Pale King considering everything he did in the backstory of Holloe Knight.

[whole holly]

that information has to have a source

[glacial warren]

True. He may have feared his people leaving him and falling into the thrall of another of his kind, if any others are indeed left.

[glacial warren]

Yes. The people, obviously. The King himself can’t be the source on account of, again, the guy being a hermit.

He’s extremely reclusive despite being a God-King. Only a very teeny tiny percentile of the population’s ever actually seen him in person.

[dull moss]

He does everything possible to make his people believe that he’s actively granting them sapience to stop them from leaving

[glacial warren]

So almost all public info regarding him is left to folks’ imaginations to fill in the blanks.

[sinful nimbus]

Are we just ignoring the howling cliffs corpse and its dream nail dialogue

Baseless distrust of the Pale King aside he's still very clearly correct

[whole holly]

you are treating that absolute constant reality... that's not necessarily a fact

[floral quiver]

Someone believing propaganda doesn't make it true

[sinful nimbus]

Dawg he's dead

[glacial warren]

True, he may be trying to keep them there simply so as his kingdom will self-sustain, or possibly to prevent them from abandoning him for a different God.

[floral quiver]

Your point?

[glacial warren]

After all, this is exactly what happened to Radiance when the King tunneled his way in.

[whole holly]

he still has his lore tablets inscribed with propaganda

[floral quiver]

He died believing propaganda

[sinful nimbus]

You read a tablet written by PK about how you lose your mind if you travel beyond the kingdom and then encounter a corpse of someone who travelled beyond the kingdom and lost his mind

[edgy nebula]

whats the ndd say

or the dnd mb

[sinful nimbus]

"No king... No mind... Release"

[near jasper]

[floral quiver]

No. We find a corpse that died believing so.

[whole holly]

hallownest being last kingdom is propaganda, regardless of whether or not if it was intended to be that way

[dull moss]

I assume his Higher Being instincts are the cause. He wants to be worshipped and rule over others

[sinful nimbus]

How did it die

[floral quiver]

We dont know

[marble oasis]

Again, we do have a source - the corpses in the Cliffs who lost their minds from going too far and fucking died

[glacial warren]

It is. Just look at the context. No one saw this guy, no one met with him beyond a very small, very specific sliver of Bugs. He’s hardly the social type outside of diplomatic meetings with the neighboring factions.

[sinful nimbus]

What does the "release" mean

[sinful nimbus]

We know you're just ignoring the obvious conclusion

[edgy nebula]

what if he really had to pee

[marble oasis]

Oh good you already brought it up

[near jasper]

Silksong

[marble oasis]

Sorry I’m disjointed here

[whole holly]

we don't see much of him because he is dead, it is possible he was very active with people, high caste at least

[marble oasis]

“Release” means it was taking a piss and it got stabbed while it was distracted obviously

[glacial warren]

True. He can’t rule a kingdom if it has no citizens. That and, again, it might also be because he knows what happened to Radiance and does not want he himself to fall to the same fate.

[marble oasis]

Goat

[foggy fractal]

shame

[glacial warren]

There is a METRIC TONNE of Lore that states outright that hardly anyone ever saw the King. Ever.

The game lays it out very, very strictly that the King was an extreme recluse.

[floral quiver]

No. I have a different interpretation of the evidence.

One that starts from "The Pale King is a monarch of a kingdom he wants to be eternal and he shouldn't be trusted to be truthful because of that."

[marble oasis]

Have we considered no one saw him because they were just blinded whenever they did

[marble oasis]

What about Quirrel only retaining his mind in the Wastes because of the mask

[whole holly]

where???

[marble oasis]

Also this is like the definition of confirmation bias

[glacial warren]

It’s made clear the guy was simply reclusive by his own choice. He’d rather spend all his hours either hosting foreign diplomatics or building Void robots in his workshop.

[marble oasis]

I like my idea better

[sinful nimbus]

"He has an impossible goal so he shouldn't be trusted"

https://giphy.com/gifs/yeah-speed-ishowspeed-D63HGAzG15LQrjBPRE

[near jasper]

And a nursery

[marble oasis]

He went out for a walk and the citizens were like “It sure is FUCKING BRIGHT today”

[glacial warren]

I still find it amusing that the King might have just been entirely unaware of how mythologized his existence has become.

Like imagine if word finally made it to him about all the stuff he’s ‘supposedly’ capable of and he’d just be puzzled by it.

[foggy fractal]

w speed

[whole holly]

eh, Royal Retainers worked with him in same Palace, whatever they believed was objectively influenced by PK

[whole holly]

can i see one piece of evidence?

[floral quiver]

My interpretation goes like this:

The Pale King claims that he granted sentience.

The Pale King used that claim and others to build a kingdom

Other kingdoms exist without the Pale King's ability to grant sentience

Therefore, the Pale King's ability to grant sentience is propaganda and untrue.

[foggy fractal]

how many pieces ?

👀

[whole holly]

he has One Shot at this

[edgy nebula]

pretty sure pale king's beacon was real

[foggy fractal]

how many shots??? 👀 👀

[whole holly]

we are discussing extent of it

[glacial warren]

That’s too long a list for me to place here or recall all of it by memory, though i’m pretty sure dialogue from Lemm, descriptors for the King’s Idols, and dialogue from Bardoon confirms his extreme reclusivity.

The guy was rarely, if ever, seen by anyone, to the point his people gave him worship indirectly via his Idols in his image.

[marble oasis]

C does not follow from A and B

[whole holly]

does anyone else have evidence for his statement???

[glacial warren]

Why are you so reluctant to accept the truth when presented with it?

[floral quiver]

That other places existed before the Pale King?

[whole holly]

"Theirs is a different kind of unity. Rejection of the Wyrm's attempt at order.
I resist the light's allure. Union it may offer, but also a mind bereft of thought... To instinct alone a bug is reduced...Hrrm... " if infection reverses the effects of beacon, how can we verify if bug is uplifted?

[glacial warren]

It’s pretty simple to parse.

[random harbor]

Lemm - King's Idol - King's Idol First dialogue

A King's Idol, eh?
Hallownest's king was an elusive figure, deified by the citizens. With the king rarely seen, worship was offered through these idols.
There's an expert craft to them. Few alive could match this skill.

@starpengu used /npcs merchants name: Lemm category: King's Idol dialogue: King's Idol First dialogue

[whole holly]

said truth lacks evidence?

[dull moss]

If the Nailmasters were granted sapience it extends far beyond Hallownest

[whole holly]

thanks star

[marble oasis]

You’re still on “Some bugs have sapience naturally therefore PK can’t grant sapience”

[glacial warren]

There is a mountain of it, as i’ve stated previously.

[marble oasis]

We see another person do this in GMS so we know its possible

[whole holly]

i only see one presented by another person

[glacial warren]

Every sign points to the Pale King having rarely ever been witnessed visually by mortal Bugs.

[foggy fractal]

so does this mean grand mother silk scales above pale king? 🤔

[whole holly]

i guess hardly anyone or rarely seen are different, why are people conflating the two

[glacial warren]

Hence the existence of the Idols and why so much of his being is exaggerated and mythologized. The Bugs of Hallownest worshipped a God no one ever saw.

[sinful nimbus]

There's also the old stag saying the king never rode the stagways

[random harbor]

Lemm - King's Idol - King's Idol First dialogue

A King's Idol, eh?
Hallownest's king was an elusive figure, deified by the citizens. With the king rarely seen, worship was offered through these idols.
There's an expert craft to them. Few alive could match this skill.

@zorinus used /npcs merchants name: Lemm category: King's Idol dialogue: King's Idol First dialogue

[whole holly]

no one ever saw is lie since he was seen even if rarely, but Royal Retainers have to be exception due to being in White Palace

[glacial warren]

He seemed to primarily keep to himself, outside of going out on diplomatic missions to locations such as Greenpath, Fungal Wastes, and Deepnest.

[marble oasis]

whoops

[glacial warren]

Although in all irony he was pretty grand at diplomacy despite being a reclusive hermit of a God, though part of me thinks his precognition may have played a hand in this.