sk-lore

[blissful harbor]

actually they both are i can’t read

[floral quiver]

If you use Hunter, Hornets baseline moveset, correctly you will never be on the ground.

Hunter is a consumate aerial style that is at its best when Hornet is in the air, striking down repeatedly from above while her enemies flsil impotent below.

if you don't start a fight by sprinting into a jump, slamming into the nearest enemy's head from above, then doing it again from the the bounce until the blob of enemies is dead you're effectively hamstringing yourself and putting yourself in danger for no gain.

[gentle aspen]

if you use Hunter correctly

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[whole holly]

doesn't Lace also use aerial style, what does that even prove?

[gentle aspen]

that’s both not a lore thing and entirely subjective, there’s no “correct” way to play the game

[blissful harbor]

id argue hunter works best with hit and run style
but ya know, it’s kind subjective

[marble oasis]

You can also safely pogo enemies to death as the Knight?

And like

Any crest?

If you want to talk Hornet’s “canon” fighting style all we have to go off is her boss fights

Which are a healthy mix of needle combat, traps and Silk spells

[floral quiver]

No. Note that Lace's damage is built off of reposte and catching hornet in a flurry of strikes, rather than striking from above as her main source of damage.

[whole holly]

they are both vaguely aerial and how hornet uses attacks in hunter crest is entirely dependent on player...

[gentle aspen]

that also feels like a really bad point to make since Silksong makes a point about how malleable her nature is

[marble oasis]

Yeah

We have nothing to go off

[gentle aspen]

like, her first personality/style is built around hunter yeah, but she can do the whole reaping thing, striking quickly as a wanderer, focusing on creations and tools as an architect, blah blah blah

[whole holly]

does this imply hornet had Protector and Sentinel Crest in Hollow Knight, which rune cage suppressed as with other silk skills and ancestral arts?

[marble oasis]

maybe

[floral quiver]

Yes. I wasnt talking about that. I have been very specific.

[gentle aspen]

No

That’s just hunter at varying levels of holding back

[marble oasis]

also she did have to absorb other peoples souls for this

[whole holly]

oh, i guess that is true

[marble oasis]

like her base state is a hunter for a reason

that’s her crest, the shape of her soul

[gentle aspen]

I mean, everyone has a baseline crest/personality.

[gentle aspen]

so what you’re saying is that hornet perceives the shape of her soul and can kill mahito

[marble oasis]

anyway this is what’s most important to me

bees aren’t hunters

weavers are

the beasts of deepnest are

[marble oasis]

No, but Eva could

[gentle aspen]

hornet downscale…

[floral quiver]

Hornet was trained by bees, her style is exceptionally aerial if used to its fullest.

You basically have to ignore all the advantages getting aerial and staying there when using Hunter has to say otherwise.

[twin dragon]

vespa literally trained hornet what

bees have their warriors

[whole holly]

is sequence of training even aerial?

[twin dragon]

yeah

or ambush-based

[whole holly]

really?

[twin dragon]

see how the hive knight frequently does the tp backslash

and jumps and hops around

[twin dragon]

They can literally FLY

[gentle aspen]

I feel like we lost the plot with this convo a bit

[marble oasis]

Hornet was trained by Weavers, her style is exceptionally spell heavy when used to the fullest
You have to basically ignore all the advantages of staying at range and firing off powerful silk skills to say otherwise

[whole holly]

oh yeah, weavers are ambush based too, it feels like training and weapon both were tailored for hornet

[twin dragon]

Eh

[gentle aspen]

wdym eh

[twin dragon]

i'd imagine the bees trained her with the weapon a lil bit more

[gentle aspen]

we’re like explicitly told this

[floral quiver]

Hornet also emulated the bees. It's why she wanted wings growing up. She made do with tools and skill to get aerial.

[twin dragon]

since the weapon LITERALLY is made with bee shit

[gentle aspen]

she sees similarities in the way she fights with pharlids

[gentle aspen]

and the weapon was modeled after weaver shit

[twin dragon]

im not denying im adding info

[twin dragon]

Weavers didn't use weapons actually

[idle mesa]

hornet likes fluffy things cz of big bee

[twin dragon]

not that much

[gentle aspen]

first sinner uses needles

Gms uses needles

[twin dragon]

Yeah but not a weapon she constantly has in her hand

[idle mesa]

hornet canonically rid around on big bee according to me

[gentle aspen]

Needles are a weaver weapon

[twin dragon]

they mainly slash away at their foes

as we see with both weavers

[frosty gate]

Nubbie yknow I like you man but wtf you mean they didn't use weapons

[twin dragon]

that we fight

[whole holly]

yeah but Vespa in Red Memory doesn't fight same as Hive Knight or even use aerial combat that much

[twin dragon]

Not in the uh

weapon way

yk

They don't have the signature sword

or spear

or wtv

they do cast but they mainly fight with their claws

[idle mesa]

mhm

maybe its cz they grew up in pharloom

[twin dragon]

twin we see 2 seconds of combat with vespa

[idle mesa]

and theres more tendency to whack people with your claws

[twin dragon]

Pharloom metalworking really ramped up post citadel

[idle mesa]

yep

[twin dragon]

not really pharloom has some good swordsbugs

[whole holly]

i mean yeah, but we don't have much to go speculate off

[frosty gate]

FS uses needles

[idle mesa]

presumably vespa fights quite the same as hornet

[twin dragon]

I meant not in the held weapon way

[idle mesa]

if not faster

prolly faster

[twin dragon]

they love casting and throwing shit but they use the reliable claws

as the melee option

[whole holly]

which differs from Hive Knight, Hive Guardian, Hive Soldier

[idle mesa]

gms does this too

[idle mesa]

yep

[marble oasis]

Hornet doesn’t have those

[twin dragon]

She can kick some ass without her weapon

[gentle aspen]

her filthy wyrm blood removed her claws

[frosty gate]

It's likely they just can't hold weapons lmao

[marble oasis]

Literally has to kick though

[twin dragon]

that's probably blunt damage

[idle mesa]

glorious wyrm blood*

[marble oasis]

Why would this be the case

[twin dragon]

They're good craftsmen i doubt that they for some reason just can't hold weapons

[idle mesa]

also widow can manouver a silk harp i think she can hold a weapon

[twin dragon]

you gotta have good hands for that

[frosty gate]

How would the hold them with their claws? Do they wrap them aoround the needle's hole

[twin dragon]

Yeah this

[marble oasis]

They don’t just have fucking knives strapped to their shoulders

[twin dragon]

Just like, uh, any other bug i think

[idle mesa]

like girl was skillfuly controlling all of bellheart

[gentle aspen]

I wouldn’t say skillful

[twin dragon]

claws dont really make it impossible for them to hold them as the actual sharp claws would be at the end of their fingers

They're just oogaing their booga

as the old ways

[idle mesa]

no other region had that much haunting influence

[floral quiver]

Doesnt every bug have claws?

[gentle aspen]

No

[idle mesa]

sherma

[twin dragon]

Nope

[idle mesa]

my little sherma

hes like 2 apples tall

[twin dragon]

some just smack at you

[floral quiver]

So?

[river lily]

HORNET
Homophobic
Odulent
Racist
Necromantic
Extra
Trans

[idle mesa]

i think racist fits more

[marble oasis]

Look at all those beautiful arms

[gentle aspen]

why

[river lily]

Why not

[twin dragon]

Keep in mind weavers speedruned evolution they kept their past habits

[gentle aspen]

doesn’t belong here

[twin dragon]

they're still territorial, love caves and use their claws

[marble oasis]

Girl why you so legs

[idle mesa]

all 3 weavers weve seen have infact done this

[river lily]

It's lore based ofc

[twin dragon]

Anyways fuck embrace the void

daily embrace the void hate

[floral quiver]

Well yeah, what are their hand analogues?

I'm pretty sure "claw" is the baseline hand analogue in lore and dialogue?

Unless I'm miss remembering

[twin dragon]

I refuse to accept it as canon

[twin dragon]

Yeah it is actually

but when we're talking about claws

[pallid flame]

Bro i just got here and this doesn't look like sk lore to me

[idle mesa]

the longclaw is specifically called long claw

[twin dragon]

we're talking about the literal definition of them

[idle mesa]

long CLAW

[floral quiver]

Aah

[twin dragon]

Claw and hand do mean the same though

[idle mesa]

mhm

[twin dragon]

in the verse

[floral quiver]

Cool

[frosty gate]

It's a Harp, you don't need precise fingers to play a Harp

[floral quiver]

Was like "what?"

[idle mesa]

i beg to differ

have you used a harp

[floral quiver]

... yeah you do

[gentle aspen]

🤨

[twin dragon]

twin, i do think you're knowledgeable on the lore

but not on fucking harps

[gentle aspen]

you need dexterity to play harps

most instruments actually

[idle mesa]

4 peoeple

im crine

[frosty gate]

MY BROTHER IN CRIST

YOU SEE FINGERS IN THIS PIC?

[twin dragon]

remember that their hands were also precise enough for their craftsmanship

[idle mesa]

i

dude

you got diffed by 4 ppl

[twin dragon]

most bugs with weapons dont have fingers actually

i think

[idle mesa]

how are you still going

[twin dragon]

unless they're major characters

[gentle aspen]

My brother in christ
Team Cherry doesn’t usually draw fingers

[idle mesa]

admit defeat bro 😭

[gentle aspen]

Its their artstyle

[frosty gate]

They're spiders they have claws

[marble oasis]

Isn’t PV the only one with fingers

[twin dragon]

chat do y'all actually think etv is the canon ending or is it purposefully left ambiguous?

[gentle aspen]

Quirrel also has fingers
Same with Hunter

[marble oasis]

senti also

[frosty gate]

The collector

[marble oasis]

i forgot

[twin dragon]

in sotv

[frosty gate]

It's mostly small characters they don't draw fingers

[idle mesa]

etv is the most canon

[frosty gate]

Like Knight and Hornet

[idle mesa]

not to say that dnm COULD be canon

[gentle aspen]

It would just look weird most of the time

[marble oasis]

Does Quirrel have them in his sprite or only in the comic?

[idle mesa]

its js much more likely etv is

[gentle aspen]

in his sprite too pretty sure

[twin dragon]

I really think it's ambiguous

[marble oasis]

I think he does in the sprite

[frosty gate]

I'm pretty sure the sprite has them

[gentle aspen]

!wiki quirrel

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Quirrel

Hollow Knight Wiki

Quirrel

Quirrel is an inquisitive, up-beat explorer, fascinated by the myths of Hallownest for reasons he cannot explain. While he remains a simple observer, he is wise to the land's dangers and has some skill with a nail.

Location

Temple of the Black Egg
Lake of Unn
Queen's Station
Mantis Village
City of Tears
Deepnest
Crystal Peak
Teacher's Archives…

Gender

Male

Actor

Tyler Bartley

[river lily]

How many hollow knight characters have fingers

[twin dragon]

story-wise dnm makes more sense

[gentle aspen]

Yeah

[marble oasis]

That’s fucked

[idle mesa]

i think its more etv

storywise

[idle mesa]

void entity is flashed to us

[twin dragon]

How

[idle mesa]

for a reason

[gentle aspen]

Disgusting

[twin dragon]

Yeah but aside from that one flash

tk keeps its form

[river lily]

Gender:male, are we sure

[twin dragon]

dnm form mind you

[idle mesa]

aside from the one piece of lore

[gentle aspen]

to make it possible to follow that one as well

[twin dragon]

AND everything else has a good closure

[river lily]

Quirrel looks more female ngl

[idle mesa]

ignoring the MAIN part of the ending

[twin dragon]

aside from literally every good character closure in dnm

[marble oasis]

I never even considered quirrel could be a woman

Am I a bad person?

[river lily]

Yes

[frosty gate]

Actually, Hornet also doesn't have fingers in the comic

[idle mesa]

i mean

[twin dragon]

quirrel sounds male

[river lily]

I'm baiting

[river lily]

Then how the fuck does he wield a nail

[twin dragon]

They flash etv for the ambiguity factor

[idle mesa]

ok so monor

[marble oasis]

She doesn’t have them in the highest detail drawings like Edge magazine

[twin dragon]

what convinces me the MOST about etv are the slashes

[idle mesa]

team cherry doesnt NEED to draw fingers for them to use a weapon

[twin dragon]

as they're basically identical

[idle mesa]

hoenstly

your over thinking it

[twin dragon]

Because the dnm form's also present which isn't in the etv ending

[frosty gate]

Team Cherry is very sneaky on hiding how she holds it

[idle mesa]

etv has me convinced bc of the fucking void entity

[frosty gate]

I don't have the full comic right now so i dont know if we see it

[twin dragon]

I don't think calling that out is valid as

tk doesnt visibly revert to it and transform yk

it just

flashes

nothing else

[idle mesa]

is that not a sign

that he has achieved full focus

[river lily]

Spiders have naturally grippy hands

[idle mesa]

they*

[twin dragon]

Brother in christ

the dnm form

[idle mesa]

almost misgendered there

[twin dragon]

has the spotlight

[twin dragon]

lmao

[idle mesa]

id argue

the entity does

otherwise thered be no flash

[river lily]

She just puts it on her hand and it sticks

[idle mesa]

its like

[twin dragon]

this shit will keep me up at night

[marble oasis]

Morticians, Judges, Fourth Chorus, GMS

[frosty gate]

Are we fighting over DNM and EtV?

[twin dragon]

Yeah but if it IS etv why flash into dnm

[twin dragon]

yeah

[frosty gate]

Its been a while

[idle mesa]

in a horror game is the scary part the wind up or the jumpscare

[twin dragon]

twin this isnt a horror game

[river lily]

Fingas

[idle mesa]

i couldnt think of a better analogy

take it

[twin dragon]

nor the comparison is really good

imo

As we don't see the dnm form in etv nor the etv form in dnm

[idle mesa]

if theres no jumpscare the priority is the thing itself

[marble oasis]

That’s what I say when I look at his fingers

[idle mesa]

only reason dnm could be valid is the voidlings behind them

[twin dragon]

yeah they are there twin

[frosty gate]

The what now

[idle mesa]

we dont see a unity of the shades in etv

[twin dragon]

siblings

[idle mesa]

shades

whatever

same same

[twin dragon]

Tk with focus probably roids themselves and becomes that thing

they wouldn't bother with the shade lord form

[idle mesa]

maybe

[frosty gate]

Look, i've been an ETV believer since day one

[idle mesa]

also

[twin dragon]

etv is disgusting get it away from me

[idle mesa]

have we considered the etv form was never there

and hornet had some

[twin dragon]

not because i hate it, but because theres the possibility its canon

[idle mesa]

halucination

[frosty gate]

Real Apostle of Hate

[twin dragon]

justified

[idle mesa]

presumably related to her experience with the void

[twin dragon]

Yeah

but

i don't think it is through hornet's eyes

as

it would be very blurry otherwise

[idle mesa]

i

[twin dragon]

tc is def comunicating smt to the audience

i believe it

firmly

[idle mesa]

its more dependent on

[frosty gate]

Honestly I think that any argument about DNM being the canon falls flat the moment you don't see THK's shade in the back

[idle mesa]

do you think tk couldve achieved focus without absrad

[twin dragon]

Focus is smt godseeker related

so

[idle mesa]

you do?

one sec

[twin dragon]

it must be achieved with the help of the godseeker

[frosty gate]

Thats Attuning

[idle mesa]

its been a bit since ive seen it

[frosty gate]

You don't

Which is my point

[twin dragon]

It means that

[twin dragon]

It could be in the bg for all we know

But man

the slashes

theyre too similar

[frosty gate]

It's literally the biggest shade ever in the game

[twin dragon]

fuck this cant be the case

[twin dragon]

There are a fuckton of those

[idle mesa]

also also

[twin dragon]

and thk being there isnt that relevant

for the moment

[idle mesa]

how can we be so sure thats tk themselves that saved hornet

and not some random sibling

[twin dragon]

my guy

[idle mesa]

ik ik

[gentle aspen]

[idle mesa]

but

[twin dragon]

sonj

[idle mesa]

hey hey

[twin dragon]

im gonna son you

till you die

[idle mesa]

i have good reason

[gentle aspen]

I’m going to become an alcoholic

[frosty gate]

It is literally impossible to not see this son of a bitch

[gentle aspen]

no you don’t

[idle mesa]

give me a second!!!

[twin dragon]

this mf is in the background

[idle mesa]

ok so like

[twin dragon]

very far away

WHY SACRIFICE ALL OF THE CLOSURE IN DNM

[idle mesa]

the voids will was united

so like

[twin dragon]

I DONT UNDERSTAND

TC

APPEAR IN MY DREAMS

[idle mesa]

maybe some rando went to save her

[twin dragon]

AND TELL ME

[gentle aspen]

under the will of the bearer

who is the knight

[idle mesa]

cz it was the voids will to save hornet at that moment

[idle mesa]

ik but

[gentle aspen]

play the game

there’s no but

[twin dragon]

Tk has the horns AND the tendrils on the back

[idle mesa]

nothing outright saying the knight THEMSELVES went to her

[gentle aspen]

that isn’t how void heart works

[twin dragon]

it is tk

themselves

literally is

[idle mesa]

and no one else can?

[twin dragon]

no other way around

[idle mesa]

idk

[twin dragon]

Yeah that's what differentiates tk from the siblings

it's very characteristic

of tk

[gentle aspen]

why would tk send a random sibling that they made look exactly like them

how does that make sense

[idle mesa]

i mean

maybe they were out elsewhere

[floral quiver]

Wait are we debating if the void creature in the ending is or isnt the Knight?

[idle mesa]

maybe tk was in sea of sorrow

[twin dragon]

no

[idle mesa]

and they couldnt get to her in time

[twin dragon]

we're debating which ending is canon

which usually results in copemaxxing

[floral quiver]

Gotcha

[gentle aspen]

Occam’s razor dawg

[idle mesa]

this is copesong i dont follow a razor

[frosty gate]

To make it make sense you literally just gotta say "Void Being exists through the Godseeker's attunement, since it killed the Godseeker, they just go back go their regular form, but with the Void still unified"

[twin dragon]

I just don't think it is confirmed which one

[dire lynx]

copemaxxing is the people who still insist on "all endings are canon"

[gentle aspen]

this makes zero sense

[idle mesa]

sealed siblings is canon

[gentle aspen]

wtv I’m leaving

hate it here

[twin dragon]

It flashing doesn't mean much when i would assume etv knight never became the dnm form

[frosty gate]

[idle mesa]

brother YOUR the mod

you made the sandwich

[twin dragon]

you really like shit don't you?

[frosty gate]

CALL ME DUNG DEFENDER

THE WAY I'M DEFENDING THIS DUNG

[twin dragon]

IUUP IUUP IUUP! TEBUNEH!

[idle mesa]

hey guys im the knight im stuck in steel city that wasnt me there

[twin dragon]

hey guys tc here, uhh we've actually messed up right

[frosty gate]

Doma! Doma! Doma doma doma!

[twin dragon]

remember how thk had a perfect closure in dnm?

well fuck you!

[idle mesa]

whats up its us tc sealed siblings is canon and gms never made the weavers

[frosty gate]

See you tomorrow Joker

[twin dragon]

we're making another game with thk using weaver silk and lifeblood powers to defeat the steel infection!

[idle mesa]

tc realizing the infection 3 dreamer trope may not work three times in a row

[twin dragon]

metroidvanias be like: collect 3 X

nine sols has this too

but its 3x3

it aint safe

[idle mesa]

silksong did it tuff and gave you a secret 4th option

homophobia

[twin dragon]

or

murder

[idle mesa]

yep

[twin dragon]

actually both are murder

what am i saying

[frosty gate]

Gays don't live happy ever after

[twin dragon]

smh nobody ever comments on 4th heart khann or nyleth

[idle mesa]

wdym shakra and hornet are RIGHT ther

[twin dragon]

Anyways dnm is canon idgaf

[idle mesa]

the hollow knight ending is canon because we dont see infection in pharloom

this is because the knight sealed it

[twin dragon]

hk isnt canon to silksong

[idle mesa]

silksong isnt canon to silksong bro

[floral quiver]

Ending Opinion

The ending where the Knight is a void entity that can save Hornet because it not being the Knight would make the ending bad because "Look it's the Knight saving Hornet" is one of the linchpins of the ending.

It being a random sibling cheapens the ending emotionally and thematically

[twin dragon]

hungry knight is the best ending

[idle mesa]

wouldnt it be funny

[twin dragon]

Is this chatgpt

we're not arguing this btw

[idle mesa]

"hey fuck you the knight felt nothing it was some random sibling"

[floral quiver]

No. I type like this.

[twin dragon]

if it is etv it just kinda kills of the payout

[frosty gate]

LMAO

[twin dragon]

and hornet's "this one the dark shall not take"

doesn't make sense

as she last seen the knight going into the waterways

[idle mesa]

when was this again

[twin dragon]

and coming out as an eldritch horror being

[twin dragon]

lost lace journal

[idle mesa]

ah

[whole holly]

i am scared to write with sophistication so i make minor mistakes from time to time

[frosty gate]

We don't know what she saw after TK did their shit in Water Ways

[twin dragon]

wriating is so badly omd chagzipeeteee sucks

[floral quiver]

we're debating which ending is canon

Did you stop?

[idle mesa]

did she not see thk

[twin dragon]

thk standing up

[idle mesa]

yeah

[whole holly]

Waterways?

[idle mesa]

she saw them

all big and tuff

[twin dragon]

Nope

we're going still

she js saw thk walking up to her

[idle mesa]

the game isnt over!!!

[frosty gate]

All big and ruined, that kid is fucked beyond what should be possible

[floral quiver]

Okay, then what are we not arguing about?

[frosty gate]

But what I mean, after that, we don't know what happened in Hallownest

[idle mesa]

they were kinda sealed for an amount of time

[idle mesa]

also presumably the entire kingdom gets fuckin destroyed

[twin dragon]

and saying:

• HAHA, I DO have a voice to cry out suffering, i AM the hollow knight after all, and you must be.. something of a silksinger yourself, eh?

[frosty gate]

Eh

[idle mesa]

what is hornet meant to do

she is NOT resisting the focused knight

[twin dragon]

About the fact that tk in sotv isnt actually tk

[frosty gate]

I doubt the Hallownest got destroyed

[idle mesa]

i think the only point against etv is that hornet exists

i think etv knight wouldve ripped her shit to shreds

[frosty gate]

I'm fully confident that THK is there and our next game from TC will be a THK Stardew Valley rebuilding Hallownest

[twin dragon]

the only point against etv is that the flashes really dont mean shit as the dnm form is literally there

[twin dragon]

TRUE

[floral quiver]

Okay.

I was stating my ending opinion.

Not participating directly in the argumemt

[twin dragon]

hk farming simulator would be peak

[idle mesa]

could this not be interpreted the other way

[twin dragon]

Ye but its not related ah wtv

[idle mesa]

maybe dnm knight means nothing

[frosty gate]

Let me romance Bretta

[idle mesa]

it was a longer flash

[twin dragon]

I guess

but

that's why

i argue its ambiguous

and if its ambiguous

we cant know

and if we cant know

we can speculate

[idle mesa]

then sealed siblings is canon

[twin dragon]

and what fits better, dream no more

therefore

dream no more wins

[idle mesa]

etv fits the exact same

if not better

[frosty gate]

But for real, there's no reason to believe that after ETV the void just runs through the kingdom

[twin dragon]

not at all

as uh

thk's arc is not finished

[frosty gate]

Killing everything

[dire lynx]

nah, i want to play thk, therefore etv fits better

[twin dragon]

hornet didn't see tk's carcass

[twin dragon]

fuck you

[idle mesa]

FUCK thk i want focus knight

[dire lynx]

fuck you

[frosty gate]

STEEL CITY THK I FUCKING KNOW IT

[twin dragon]

idsiygdsarfdersa

LIFEBLOOD STEEL INFECTION VOID HAUNTING

MAGGOT WATERT

[idle mesa]

AND flea brew

[frosty gate]

We will either get a THK farming sim or a Steel City THK game

[floral quiver]

The Hollow Knight's arc is pretty finished considering it barely has one.

Like, what would you do with it?

[dire lynx]

dont forget nightmare flame

[twin dragon]

They end up free of their eternal damnation

[idle mesa]

barely has one?

[twin dragon]

and the siblings actually being at rest

makes sense

because of dnm

[idle mesa]

"who could blame a child for loving their father"

cue tuff edit

[frosty gate]

Barely has one 🥀

[twin dragon]

oh wow the character who's calling out for these vessels and basically laces up the plot doesnt have closure!!!

thats why dnm better

because it gives them a closure

a good one aswell

they even get to kick ass themselves look at them go!

[frosty gate]

Think about the fact that we could get closure with Steel City

[twin dragon]

NOO

WHAT WOULD THEY EVEN DO THERE

WHY

THK IS TOO BIG!

[idle mesa]

steel city comes and every vessel ever becomes focused

[twin dragon]

DNM HAS A GOOD CLOSURE ON THEM WHY INVALIDATE

[frosty gate]

Kidnapped

[floral quiver]

Yes?

Like. It has one, but not one you could build a compelling NPC in a metroidvania around given its limitations.

It's arc is very cut and dry

[twin dragon]

very original

[idle mesa]

lace is kidnapped and taken to steel city

[frosty gate]

We did 3 infections

[frosty gate]

Surely we can get a second kidnapping

[twin dragon]

Thk's a pretty big representant of the themes of the game

[idle mesa]

steel city has been overrun by the void radiance lifeblood fleabrew infection

you msut collect the three singing dreamers and beat the daughter of the lifeblood

[twin dragon]

everything would have to be downscaled

for thk

to work

that would look extremely funky

[frosty gate]

I think that, for a THK game, the correct way to go is a Horde game

[dire lynx]

put sherma next to elderbug

[twin dragon]

Ik they're the same height

[idle mesa]

put sherma next to the knight

[twin dragon]

but the difference between hornet and tk PALES between hornet and thk

[idle mesa]

2 apples vs 3 apples tall

[twin dragon]

thk fishing game

[idle mesa]

i think hk should become a steal a game

diamond pale king

[twin dragon]

please

no

PLEASE

[idle mesa]

grows offline

[twin dragon]

NOOO

[frosty gate]

But fr, I think THK could get either an arc of finding its new purpose in life. I think that not granting it the closure is sad, yes, but it gives use the oportunity to see THK be the kid that it didn't have the chance to be

A humongus kid

But a kid nonetheless

[idle mesa]

or maybe tc just forgot thk existed

[twin dragon]

this would be interesting if thk didn't have a perfect ending

[idle mesa]

"closure? funny words there lets have another infection"

[frosty gate]

I can't even call this bait, the forgot about Phantom

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/jfk-clone-high-i-like-your-funny-words-magic-man-jack-black-gif-18659433

[twin dragon]

phantom has enough character ironically

i really do think that

[idle mesa]

yep

[twin dragon]

do you know who DOESNT

trobbio

[frosty gate]

Which is the greatest thing

[twin dragon]

why doesnt trobbio have fucking

dialogues

why cant we fucking

recruit this motherfucker

whats the point

[frosty gate]

She has amazing character and personality

[dire lynx]

there are already a bunch of big NPC's and i think it could also be good fun to give us the opposite dynamic where we are like shakra talking to little people

[frosty gate]

A shit ton of depth in only a boss fight

AND IT GOES NOWHERE BECAUSE TC JUST FORGOT

[twin dragon]

You seem to forget its a metroidvania, but then again, it could innovate in the field

[twin dragon]

no i unironically think she's done well

she's lace characterization but

she's charismatic enough on her own

[dire lynx]

why does it have to be a metroidvania?

[twin dragon]

thk housing simulator

thk is a landlord

or make it ue5 and back it up with the french governement and itll be goty

[whole holly]

that unironically needs to happen

[idle mesa]

but

i want my team cherry game to be a team cherry game

[twin dragon]

INFECTION

[frosty gate]

No, don't get me wrong. Phantom is a well done character, but her spot in the lore is literally inexistent. We have barely any info on Phantom and why she's there or why she got discarded. Why she isn't mentioned by Lace at no point in the entire game, why she isn't more than a secondary boss

[twin dragon]

god

[idle mesa]

me when i boot up hollow knight stardew valley and theres no dreemers

[frosty gate]

Phantom herself, is really really good

[twin dragon]

This is true

you nailed it

though i mean

[frosty gate]

But TC just did nothing with her

[twin dragon]

lace doesnt mention her because hornet wont really recognize her

but we know she did find her

and thats probably one of the reasons of why she's like that

[idle mesa]

nail??? tk upscale

[frosty gate]

How do you make the FIRST DAUGTHER of GMS not relevant to the main quest at all?????????????????????????????????

[twin dragon]

battle of blackwyrm in the corner, crying

[frosty gate]

That's just background info

[twin dragon]

idgaf

namedropped as something super important

[idle mesa]

its the only relevance shit defender has bro

he hasnt done anything since the heian era

[frosty gate]

Yo

I don't accept trash talk about Goatgrim

[idle mesa]

ooo look at me i make ismas slightly annoying to get

[dire lynx]

where are my knotted grove and champions call fans at

[idle mesa]

i love him bro

but he has NOTHING

poor dudes rotting in the shit

[twin dragon]

like, oh yeah have you heard about the BATTLE OF RINTLESACK, the mighty battle where EVERYTHING happened and yet there's NO info on it

ogrimm is a goated character

top 3 hk characters

[frosty gate]

Nah, compared to Phantom, he's well done

[idle mesa]

yep

[twin dragon]

literally all the info on the 5 knights comes from him

[idle mesa]

fair

[idle mesa]

pale court would be NONEXISTANT wqithout bro

[frosty gate]

Phantom has no place in the lore at all, you can't make theories about Phantom because she has no info on her

[twin dragon]

phantom imo doesnt need to be relevant to the main story, she's discarded for a reason, meant to be forgotten, and she is

But

[idle mesa]

yep

[twin dragon]

something about her timeline could be done

[frosty gate]

We got plenty of Info about Ogrim, it just so happens its not plot relevant

[twin dragon]

and dialogues

[idle mesa]

phantom will unleash the mist infection in steel city

[frosty gate]

I think she should be relevant to the main story, at least a little bit

She doesn't even fucking give a Silkheart

[idle mesa]

greedy ass??? a parry AND a heart???

[twin dragon]

I mean she is? i think at least she is in part, but only as lace characterization

and gms characterization

but we dont know when or why shes in the organ

which is

[idle mesa]

is it not cz

[twin dragon]

a pretty recurring issue in silksong

is that the timeline is warped to hell

[idle mesa]

the organ is like the shit of the citadel

[frosty gate]

Upscaling a character just because the characters around them are great is Naruto's author level of bullshit

[floral quiver]

Because Silk is all about discarding "daughters" when they dont meet her expectations and having Phantom just be there, thrown away, forgotten and alone without a mention by anyone is a neat way to show Silk's callousness and uncaring attitude?

[idle mesa]

wow discarding children

where have i heard this

someone write this down

[floral quiver]

Just saying. It fits.

[twin dragon]

Im not really

saying that yk

or mean that

i think she has her place in the story

[idle mesa]

i think its js

[twin dragon]

and she does her purpose just fine

[idle mesa]

a daugher of the one higher being that exists

should have a bit more than a boss

[frosty gate]

This is great characterization for the PK and it does the same thing about discarding children

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[twin dragon]

say it with me folks

a line of dialogue would've went a long way 5!

[floral quiver]

What's your point?

[idle mesa]

oh how could i forget

the one needolin diologue

how silly of me!

[twin dragon]

Like imagine conductor ballador telling us shit about phantom

that could help with orientating when she was created

and why shes in the organ

[idle mesa]

imagine getting to the submarine in sea of sorrow and theres no movement and its filled to the brim with pahntom lore

[dire lynx]

even exposition dump caretaker

[twin dragon]

caretaker says too much imo

should be more distributed

[dire lynx]

thats why i said it would be him

[twin dragon]

ballador would fit

[idle mesa]

yeah maybe the mf that cant stop calling us a slave can act say something of value

[twin dragon]

thats ball hermit

[idle mesa]

"slave slave" js tell me bout phantom bro

[twin dragon]

not caretaker

[idle mesa]

i mean

distrubuted around all of them

[floral quiver]

Punishment?

Like. Do they need anything beyond implication?

[twin dragon]

For what exactly?

[idle mesa]

cz what does the maid say beyond "dont die" and "thanks for clearing this shit up"

[dire lynx]

it could make sense if we did it after collecting the soul in bilewater, actually

[twin dragon]

and her wraiths appear to imply she's warding off pilgrims or whoever to not get near the mist

even though she wants to die

[idle mesa]

yep

[floral quiver]

Unknown and quite literally could not matter less in the grand scheme of the narrative

[idle mesa]

if she wanted to die

can she not cross stitch into herself

[twin dragon]

Not very relevant to the narrative? sure, but important to the character?, fuck yeah

why are we defending ts

there could be more while there isnt

[twin dragon]

she's a baller at heart

[idle mesa]

yep

[frosty gate]

My point is that, despite showing how uncaring can GMS be through Phantom, it still makes no sense to give her Sister, the main antagonist by the way, no line of dialogue about her, when she explicitly remembers her and mourns for her.

It makes no sense that we don't get a single dialogue or clue about how or when they were created. It makes no sense we are not even told who put her in the Organ to play. It makes no sense why she would even be in the Organ in the first place. It makes no sense that Hornet doesn't mention Phantom when talking about Lace's true nature. It makes no sense how Phantom is completely sidelined for the entire game and you could beat the entire game without even finding her, despite being a character that should have big lore relevance

[twin dragon]

eh

[frosty gate]

"She's meant to be forgotten" my ass

[twin dragon]

twin

lace's probably already like this

BECAUSE of phantm

lace just casually namedropping her to hornet, and for what?

we know she talked with phantom

make ballador mention her

[frosty gate]

Yes but make it show make it relevant, make it compelling
Fuck even a cutscene would do

[dire lynx]

ballador, bell hermit, cardinius

[twin dragon]

the dialogue exchange between them is already enough imo

[dire lynx]

someone should talk about her 🥀

[twin dragon]

like that's the first thing that came into my head

[twin dragon]

yes cardinius please

[frosty gate]

We beat the entire PoP just for a cutscene of PV and PK looking at eachother

[twin dragon]

give my boy some useful dialogue

[frosty gate]

And you can't give Phantom ANYTHING

[frosty gate]

Caretaker getting all the lorebombs

[twin dragon]

caretaker hitting you with the fun fact and then explaining the entire lore

[frosty gate]

While Cardi, who should be knowledgable, gets nothing

[twin dragon]

He talks abt vaultkeepers but

he should talk about shit like

idk

isamor

as yk, he does serve hornet

[frosty gate]

He should talk about the Silkborn child killing people in the Halls

[twin dragon]

caretaker already does that

vaultkeepers are pretty isolated iirc

maybe jubilana

who spent her entire life there

jubilana is underrated as fuck

[frosty gate]

Yeah but It'd be weird Lace didn't kill everyone in the Vaults too

[twin dragon]

we see the perspective through the eyes of someone who did the pilgrimage into the citadel

[floral quiver]

No sense why she's down there? There's lots of implied stuff given who she is and where she is

Silk, Punishment or exile. It's the metaphorical defecation engine of the Citadel so it's either punishment for some unknown crime or exile to the shittest place that isnt outside the Citadel.

[twin dragon]

and was accepted into it

[twin dragon]

they're also pretty isolated

have you seen that entrance

they also don't do the singing

[frosty gate]

Idk, Caretaker gets too many lore lines

I think Silksong does this too much, just pile everything in a single spot

[twin dragon]

that's not bad

as the lore is extensive

esp a character you're basically forced to meet with

but there should be more detailed dialogues

and more dialogues in general

[frosty gate]

If GMS just forgot about her existance who the fuck would force her to work

She's not even Haunted

[twin dragon]

conductors

shes in the organ for a reason

and maybe

shes been like

mistreated idk

wish we knw

[frosty gate]

Make Ballador talk about her. Give us a tablet about the Organ existing and a creature made of silk kept captive there

[floral quiver]

Isn't a part of cardinius character that he's a bit mad?

Like, intelligent but mad and hyperfocused on accumulating written knowledge?

[frosty gate]

You stumble on Phantom by CHANCE

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[frosty gate]

That seems to be a trait of his species tbf

[twin dragon]

He's the insightmaxxer

[frosty gate]

Not even Caretaker, god of Loredrops, talks about Phantom

Hornet doesn't even mention her to him like "Yo I killed a thing like Lace down in Bilewater wtf was that"

[dire lynx]

Guys, trust we will learn about her in Sea of Sorrows

[frosty gate]

Hornet doesn't even say "I bested someone of your kin down among the muck" to Lace

Team Cherry genuinely forgot Phantom existed

[twin dragon]

we could

they could give us qol

much needed qol

thats not related to the main thing

[dire lynx]

We gonna have to wait for "Bone Scroll" sequel to "Wanderers Journal" just for an extra two sentences of nothing on phantom

[frosty gate]

I know, but it does detract from the experience when you see it with a critical eye. I loved the game the first time around, and I still do but damn is it hard to not hate some stuff

[near jasper]

Whats the topic rn

[frosty gate]

I had this thought about Red Memory too

[dire lynx]

Phantom having nothing

[frosty gate]

Phantom is not real in the lore

[twin dragon]

red memory's really good unironically

[near jasper]

Yeah it kinda feels like that

[twin dragon]

whats not good is the shade lord flash in sotv

which

implies etv

and that implies poo

[dire lynx]

False, it is good since I want to play as thk

[near jasper]

Yk the very obvious lore tablet Just hanging out on the organ might be a good place to put phantom lore man idk

[whole holly]

is it as good as birthplace cutscene? which is more resonant to people?

[twin dragon]

im gonna do something

[floral quiver]

What's wrong with Red Memory?

[frosty gate]

I think it's alright but I don't like when shows pile flashbacks in a single spot instead of spreading them in more important moments relevant to the flashbacks

[twin dragon]

To each their own i have them equal ish, but hornet has more character work

[frosty gate]

There's better Red Memory haters than me, I don't dislike it I just don't care too much for it

[twin dragon]

I mean i guess but it's supposed to be THE crucial moment

for hornet

[whole holly]

i guess i can agree with that

[twin dragon]

hornet's a really good character

except

the slab

and 4th heart

we dont talk about that

no

[frosty gate]

Yeah which I can understand for Weavers appearing

[twin dragon]

shh

shut up

[floral quiver]

I do!

😄

[frosty gate]

But as Star has mentioned many times

Vespa has just no business in that Flashback

[twin dragon]

why do you think that

[floral quiver]

They wanted to canonized Daughter of Three Queens.

Vespa has all the business.

[frosty gate]

She doesn't really do anything in that flashback

[twin dragon]

She shows how hornet trained

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah and I vibe with that but

[near jasper]

Its weird that leaving a woman rotting to death in eternal bilewater is never really brought up against anyone in the game

[twin dragon]

and why she doesn't use her fucking claws

like a troglodyte

[frosty gate]

What's more compelling

To get the flashback piled with other more plot-relevant flashbacks at the end of the game

Or

Get the flashback in a spot where the flashback makes sense

For example

[twin dragon]

you get the flashback

[frosty gate]

Trail's End

[twin dragon]

where it makes sense...

eh

yk

i get your point

but

i think it would ruin a lil bit what's supposed to be

shakra's moment

[frosty gate]

It would add to the empathy of both characters sharing a moment of weakness for the deceased mentors/mothers

[near jasper]

Also having a flash back for something thats not really important till act 3 in act 2 would feel a bit weird

[frosty gate]

How is Vespa training hornet important for Act 3

[near jasper]

Red memory

[twin dragon]

I guess, but that's purely a shakra moment there

I mean we could've had more clues on vespa training hornet

in the game

thats for sure

[frosty gate]

I'm not saying to get Red Memory there

[twin dragon]

but the flashbacks are appropiate imo

[near jasper]

Ik

[frosty gate]

I'm saying to get flashbacks in spots where Hornet would reminisce about her past

[twin dragon]

Yeah

but

not the best example with shakra imo

[twin dragon]

It is very important for her to face her past though

at the very moment

[frosty gate]

It doesn't take the spotlight from Shakra

[twin dragon]

as yk, the past becomes a big plot point in act 3

[twin dragon]

it would

[frosty gate]

It would make the spotlight shine on both

[twin dragon]

also dont be like nine sols please

[near jasper]

Also where would hornet even be reminded of white lady

[twin dragon]

dont shoehorn flashbacks into every moment

[frosty gate]

You don't even have to cut Shakra's storyline short

Just make little thought bubbles of the Flashback pop near hornet while theys ing

Or make Vespa's ghost appear behind Hornet

I feel like it's more compelling to get it there, where the feelings are high

[twin dragon]

eeeeh

vespa

there?

not sure man

not sure

maybe when she's training with someone

[frosty gate]

Actually, the other option I thought about was when Shakra knocks you out after dueling

[twin dragon]

it's also just not a hollow knight thing to do that

[blissful harbor]

“this was jst like that time my teacher beat my ass”

[twin dragon]

and it could ruin gameplay momentum

[near jasper]

I feel like having vespa's moment be fully missable by just playing well wouldnt be great

[floral quiver]

That would make the scene about Hornet because she's the protagonist and her stuff is inherently more important when it happens.

It wouldn't be shining on both, it would be shining on Hornet with Shakra effectively as a background character in her own specific scene.

[twin dragon]

or just, skipping the fight

as you can do

[near jasper]

Yeah

[frosty gate]

It was not a Hollow Knight thing to canonize ETV but here we are Nubbie

[twin dragon]

its not canon

at least not fully

as there are specs of dnm in the ending

[frosty gate]

Where's THK Nubbie

[twin dragon]

background

[frosty gate]

SWEAR IT

[twin dragon]

they weren't that relevant to that specific moment

[blissful harbor]

you would see them

they are a giant shade

[twin dragon]

there are hundreds of siblings come on mates

[blissful harbor]

the only giant shade

[twin dragon]

y'all cant make this up

[blissful harbor]

they are very distinctive

like

[twin dragon]

tc will reveal me the canon ending in a dream

tomorrow

[near jasper]

Thk is being left ambigous on purpose

[frosty gate]

Yeah, whic is why I think it's better in trails end

[twin dragon]

THIS

literally

this

the flash is also ambiguous

[blissful harbor]

you cannot confuse them for another sibling

[floral quiver]

I choose to believe their dead entirely to spite Nubbie for no reason. 😄

[twin dragon]

dead?

wym

[blissful harbor]

sure it’s ambiguous
but it’s intentional they are left out of the scene

[floral quiver]

The Hollow Knight. What happened? Theyre dead.

What about- dead.

[frosty gate]

Man, I've played enough games and read enough shit to know that two characters sharing a moment of weakness over their pasts long lost would effectively ruin me

[twin dragon]

Yeah, that's great, that's what happens in dream no more

i like it

[floral quiver]

Same!

[twin dragon]

but

people argue for etv

and tc SURELY wouldnt make that bad ending canon... right?

right tc

right ari?

[frosty gate]

What purpose bro if they were a shade it would be there

[twin dragon]

ye but its ambiguous

that's the point

[frosty gate]

Ari wouldn't

[twin dragon]

of the flash

[frosty gate]

William?????????????????

[near jasper]

Why is etv/dnm even relevant to this discussion

[floral quiver]

I like ambiguity.

[frosty gate]

I wouldn't trust William with a baby

[twin dragon]

not for the ending

[frosty gate]

It isn't I was just baiting Nubbie

[twin dragon]

yeah

cuz

i want my games good

and my stories clean

[lone folio]

He is the guy who is famous for a game in which the main story revolves around a dad killing his children

[twin dragon]

oh yeah ari's the art guy

[frosty gate]

Exactly

[twin dragon]

i think

was he=?

[frosty gate]

Both are the art guys

[twin dragon]

the visual

art guy

[frosty gate]

Ari is just more art focus while william is

Idk I think William does more

[lone folio]

Yeah they are both Ari

[near jasper]

Where would we place the other red memory cutscenes if we're separating them

[lone folio]

Ari is Ari and William is also Ari

Obv

[twin dragon]

In the red memory

they fit pretty well

but vespa needs to be more elaborated upon

[lone folio]

That's why you also don't trust Ari with your children

[floral quiver]

Vespa needs, like, a minor boss fight. Not a full one, like one go around then defeated

[lone folio]

True

[twin dragon]

cut content strikes again

[floral quiver]

Knock her down once memory done

[twin dragon]

Like hornet mentioning the bees to pinstress or shakra would be really neat

[frosty gate]

The C in TC stands for Cut

[twin dragon]

silksong has unironically the best cut content in any game

ive ever seen

[lone folio]

The cutters.

[twin dragon]

that's not a good thing

[near jasper]

How does needolin text actually work?

Like to what point is it translated to normal speech

[frosty gate]

Hornet genuinely needs to mention more of her past throughout the game man

[twin dragon]

mhmmm

that's why dnm is good yk

good closure

[floral quiver]

"You fight similarly to my mentors, old one. Your flight is impressive!"

[twin dragon]

sees tk dead

and says smt related when it is needed

lost lace journal

see?

its so good

[lone folio]

I agree

[twin dragon]

why no more

[floral quiver]

I want more Bees in the DLCs

[lone folio]

And whoever decided to make the ending of silksong somewhat fit both of the more true endings is evil

[floral quiver]

We've had Weaver now Bee Hornet Time!

[frosty gate]

It barely fits DNM

[twin dragon]

bro

it fits really well

with dnm

but not at all with etv

not the cutscene but the conclusion as a whole

[frosty gate]

I don't wanna say that ETV is the greatest ending

[twin dragon]

etv has NO future

and NO hope

[frosty gate]

I think its hype as fuck

[twin dragon]

yes

its aura

[frosty gate]

But DNM its cool

[twin dragon]

but it should only stay

as an aura

"what if"

[frosty gate]

But, there's only so much I can Cope, it all seems like ETV

[near jasper]

Sealed siblings is the canon ending

[frosty gate]

All my Cope is currently funneled to THK having a Steel City game

[floral quiver]

Everything is in Hornets head

Pharloom doesnt exist

[twin dragon]

you're coping with it being etv

when its very clearly intended to be ambiguous

[near jasper]

Yes thats why its so long

[twin dragon]

as the flash doesnt mean anything because it's instantaneous and both forms are present

from 2 different timelines

[floral quiver]

Does the ending of Hollow Knight matter beyond the ones it obviously isnt?

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/omni-man-wheres-mark-william-omni-man-meme-you-are-not-safe-invincible-gif-12200603688986882222

Where is THK Nubbie

[twin dragon]

ambiguous