sk-lore

[whole holly]

I am most curious about Godseekers replacement group

Unless we find sister tribe?

[trim flame]

It could be the godseekers themselves

[whole holly]

I mean they could but I don’t think it is likely

How did they survive EtV would be question

[craggy smelt]

man, there's a crazy thought

at some point Hornet enters TK's mind and finds Godhome kicking around in there

all the Godseekers are like, hey, you're the sister of our lord and savior

though I do hope that the Godseekers aren't just shoe-horned into Pharloom

while I like them and the Grimm Troupe, I don't want them just recycled

[marble oasis]

Hey we watched you get your ass kicked by the god of gods

Twice

[craggy smelt]

"Hail the lesser sibling of the God of Gods!"

[marble oasis]

Look no shame it is the Most High after all

[twilit storm]

Indeed

[trim flame]

That canonically didn't happen tho

[craggy smelt]

guess again

[trim flame]

Isn't silksong based on true ending

[craggy smelt]

it's ambiguous as to whether it follows DNM or ETV

both are possible

since you see a glimpse of the Void Given Focus in the ending, which can only exist if ETV happens

[trim flame]

If it was etv the knight would've been lord shade

[craggy smelt]

you see a vision of the siblings, which shouldn't be there if ETV happened, but also the Shade Lord, which only exists in ETV happens
in both cases it's a vision though, so it's unclear what it means

maybe it's a premonition of what TK could become, or TK just took on a more familiar form

[trim flame]

Yes but DNM fits it the best

DNM would explain everything else clearly

[dire lynx]

there is no true ending, the fact the community gave dnm that name is stupid

[trim flame]

Me describing stuff is not the best so I hope u understand what I mean

[craggy smelt]

yes, but
if ETV happens
it means THK is still around and will probably show up

[trim flame]

Don't we see a glimpse of THK in the ending

[craggy smelt]

nope!

[trim flame]

I think we did

Istg I saw him

[dire lynx]

thk is not seen or mentioned in all of silksong

ur tripping

[craggy smelt]

you saw only what you wanted to see

[trim flame]

Nvm the glimpse was of lord shade

Not thk

[trim flame]

I'm not high

[whole holly]

I still don’t think godseekers will show up

I want more Steel Hearts though

[trim flame]

Canonically ETV cannot be the true ending because I have never beaten pantheon 5! Haha, get it

[whole holly]

Okay sure whatever

But I want troupe cult tied to lifeblood

A group of alchemists is cool too

[craggy smelt]

there was a 'Void Cult' early in development, they seem to have been replaced with the Burning Bugs
but I wonder if maybe a Void Cult could crop up in future DLC? maybe founded in the wake of the black threading

bugs enraptured or driven to madness by the Void

[north shuttle]

One of the lore tablets said that void can deny time, which might imply that both of them could've happened to some extent. Whether that being that shadow lord exists outside of the "timeline" or that the void has special qualities for both endings to be canon in a way.

[craggy smelt]

that might not be literal, and was just PK's florid way of saying that the Void was the key to his 'eternal kingdom'

being that he could use it to stop Radiance and all

[north shuttle]

Yeah tbh it was probably just used to describe hallownest descending into the "stasis" hence denying time. But still the wording seems a little specific.

[craggy smelt]

it's interesting that PK capitalizes 'Time' like it's a being

but Radiance is sometimes regarded as representing time and nature and their inevitability and shit

so it could all be referring to her

like how Bardoon says TK could 'defeat nature' once they become the Void Lord

[marble oasis]

THK is notably not visible with all the other siblings

Maybe it was holding the camera

[foggy stratus]

THK is the one playing all the music

[whole holly]

i have to speculate about Abyss Shriek a little

so we know how in Abyss Shriek room there are soul vessel-like figures that say their voices will cry out again, but it is clear that Abyss Shriek is Void Spell + Howling Wraith, it seems that precursor spell existed before it and Howling Wraith was a catalyst

i feel like if hornet played needolin in that room, spell/voice will cry out

isn't it ironic vessels are stated to have no voice to cry suffering?

[foggy stratus]

I don't seem to follow fully.

[whole holly]

i believe that in abyss shriek room some ancient spell existed from AC that is unrelated to Shaman Howling Wraith spell, and i believe AC spell could have been activated by needolin

[foggy stratus]

I don't think Needolin would activate it. It activates for Howling Wraith because it's a voice type thing, Needolin likely wouldn't trigger the same mechanism thing due to it just being music. I've always figured that room was sorta sentient and that it specifically triggered for Howling Wraiths because it was compatible with the sentience of the room(I'm aware I worded it awkwardly)

Wait am I going insane or did TC change the background thing for incompleated Masks and Spools?

[whole holly]

i understood it just fine, dw, if you suggest it is voice-only thing would it resonate with other type of voices? we don't really see much other voice-based spells but i believe Voice and Song belong to similar magic category where they have unexplainable properties, Grubsong, Weaversong, Elegy of the Deep, Grubberfly's Elegy, Carefree Melody and clearly Karmelita's Song as well as Sherma's Song

[foggy stratus]

The only nit pick I have on this is regarding the Grub charms where it's just "the gratitude of freed grubs", no mention of a song. The other charms for do mention songs. Weaversong contains 'a song of farewell' and Carefree Melody has 'a song of protection' in them.

[whole holly]

it seems gratitude of grubs(sounds they make after freed) have special properties, grub care instructions said that grubs song/voice(i don't fully remember which) have restorative properties

[foggy stratus]

Interesting. Kidna odd how the charm descriptions only indirectly mention songs then.

[whole holly]

i agree, what about warding bell containing hymn of protection?

[foggy stratus]

Also I am NOT going insane! I think in whatever update I had to install right before starting Silksong a part of it was that I steel soul the background of incomplete masks and spools would be gray!

[whole holly]

clearly AC had their own voice-based spells separate from shamans, let's call it shade song

[foggy stratus]

Its inscribed with one, not containing one.

[whole holly]

i am not using newest version

[whole holly]

yeah, i forgot, thanks for correcting me

[foggy stratus]

Something else that's inscribed with something is the Magnetite Brooch, which is just a chunk of carved Magnetite. This leads me to belive that in the world of Hollow Knight you can engrave things onto items in order to imbue them with certain properties. Which in theory means you could inscribe something onto a chunk of like stone of metal that makes it increase weapon damage, meaning nothing is stopping Hornet from making her own form of Unbreakable Strength beyond her just being a lazy sack of silk.

[whole holly]

does that mean in that room in abyss something might be inscribed on them? or imbued with certain properties otherwise

[foggy stratus]

Abyss Shriek Room?

[whole holly]

yeah

[foggy stratus]

Maybe.

Or it might be some lingering essence granting some degree of sentience, as is my belief.

It also might be possible that the ancient masks get their magical properties from twh engravings on them. Same with Soul Vessels from the first game.

[whole holly]

did AC make Soul Vessels?

[foggy stratus]

Personally I don't think so.

I think the Snail Shamans made them and used Ancient Masks they've seen as a reference.

[whole holly]

why are there Soul Vessel looking things in abyss shriek room, AC clearly had technique and every way to make them

[foggy stratus]

I think that they're just depictions of open mouths.

There's only so many ways you can show someone with their mouth open.

[whole holly]

okay but what about fact that they made soul totems, why would they collect soul if they can't store soul in their body?

[foggy stratus]

They might need soul for things, or need them in quantities that they can't naturally handle.

[whole holly]

they clearly used soul one way or another, maybe less than shaman but still

[marble oasis]

i would say so

[whole holly]

shamans are experimenting with soul little too much, AC was experimenting with void little too much

[marble oasis]

masks are ancient and soul vessels are also made of pale ore

[whole holly]

i generally agree, marking are really similar

[foggy stratus]

Is there any proof to that?

[idle mesa]

me and the pale king made them

yeah

[marble oasis]

• pale
• same banding as pale ore
• look exactly the same as mask shards, which are explicitly made of pale ore

[foggy stratus]

Wdym "banding"?

[blissful harbor]

the same pattern found on pure nails and ancient masks i assume

[marble oasis]

and the pale ore deposit above zi

[foggy stratus]

Alright, so let's agree that Anceint Masks are made of Pale Ore. Something i find odd is the lines. On Pure Nail, the lines are very broad and fluid, similar to Vessel Fragments. But Masks have finer, more rigid lines. Since we know that Pure Nail is an alloy of whatever material TK's Nail was made of and Pale Ore, it could be possible that this broader more fluid line still is representative of something made impure or alloyed Pale Ore. Which could mean that the Vessels were made of an alloy of Pale Ore, potentially due to them being made later when Pale Ore was rarer or more reserved for Nail Smiths.

Which could point to them being a product of the Snail Shamans, who used Ancient Masks as a base.

[whole holly]

also this example from silksong

[whole holly]

we have no implication shamans ever used pale ore or even metalwork at all

AC definitely did

[marble oasis]

What are you yammering about Vessels being made of ore

My fault you mean soul vessels

[foggy stratus]

Yes.

[marble oasis]

Or the lines appearing larger on Soul Vessels is just because the Vessels are smaller

So the lines are of the same thickness ultimately

[gaunt berry]

In general, I would love to see a heavier emphasis on the memory stuff. I would love to see the Citadel at its peak, or Greymoor when it was actually arable. Its weird, because while I do enjoy that Silksong feels more lively and its dire state feels sufficiently and succintly shown through the game, I still felt a yearning for MORE examples of life. Then again, the kind of lore I seek in either of these games revolves around cultural and sociopolitical aspects, such as the Knightly order in Hallownest and the Citadel Choirbug caste, which are two things I will admit are more…remiss and not actual focuses, compared to HK/SK’s respective games themes of stagnation and the cycles of motherly abuse.

I do hope we see a proper GMS fight. She’s too easy in her current state, which does again make sense considering shes puppeting a whole kingdom and has been dormant for several bug millenia.

But I like slamming myself against a wall repeatedly for hours on end…thats Why I love challenge runs

[gaunt berry]

I mean, it does make sense. That is the whole reason runes glow so damn much in the first place. Its a stretch, but I feel as if the runes in Hallownest are engraved in Soul as an aspect of the Pale King’s ability to expand the mind; Hallownests entrance/King’s Pass tablets read almost like commands. Perhaps thats part of the process of expanding Waste-stricken minds. I wonder if thats why Silk is so precious and powerful. You basically can use the air as a surface, and if your engraving theory is true, this would explain why the Weaver caste is considered to be unfathomably powerful. They are described as incredibly talented in rune magic or something along those lines. If you could just. naturallly Conjure up a Seal of Binding with your body casually I would believe you are some God or Higher Being and I would make a 500-something rosary worth idol of you as well.

If the air is your canvas you can paint anywhere. Thats incredibly broken.

[gaunt berry]

It sucks because (and this is apparently a scalding hot take) but I enjoy the lore and design of GMS over the Radiance. Only by a smidgen, of course, since the Radiance is an excellently written deity threat, but the potential to write a really compelling plot about motherhood is there, and the story already does a excellent job in depicting the shattering and destruction of your identity to be a perfect daughter through Lace…..None of my friends agree with this though, and it is hampered by my heavy dislike of Lost Lace and the utter lack of GMS’s perspective. I hope we see a DLC or something so my friends see the vision.
-# And so they can stop arguing with me. Because Im right. /hj

[whole holly]

i hope Sea of Sorrows solves all my problems in silksong and in general

i only want vague and mysterious storyline that's intriguing and can give players basis to theorize about lot of things

i understand why void cult was cut but lifeblood alchemist/mariner group is intriguing if it is real

[gaunt berry]

I have a lot of issues with Silksong. Its somehow a infinitely better game than Hollow Knight but also way worse.

Gameplay is a step up. Unfathomable step up. But the writing pisses me off too much.

[whole holly]

i share similar perspective, but i don't feel too strongly about it

[gaunt berry]

I assume my writing issues will resolve with DLC. So im not REALLY badgering it QUITE yet.

[whole holly]

it makes sense that it is made digestible to masses

[heavy spire]

I’d assume silksong will have several DLCs like hollowknight did, so there’ll probably be a few writing expansions

[whole holly]

that is true, it is only natural

Lifeblood Creature is one of many that need to be addressed

[heavy spire]

Right. I’d assume a lot of cut content was moved to dlcs to get the game out tbh

[heavy spire]

Seeing as sea of sorrow may have something to do with plasmium/lifeblood, i really hope we get to see the lifeblood creature

I wonder if we’ll get to fight it

[whole holly]

maybe not, or maybe it will be reserved for questline, who knows

[heavy spire]

Ooh perhaps

A funny thing to imagine though is like. If this is an act past act 3, then pharloom is just getting crap thrown at them back to back to back 😭 first its the haunting, then void, then lifeblood infection? Yikes

[near jasper]

I dont think a past act 3 state can work gameplay wise sadly

[frank dove]

Biggest thing I wanted too, by far my favorite parts of the game were coral tower, lost verdania and karmelita fight (even though it was 1 arena)

[foggy stratus]

In Sea of Sorrow were gonna see another Pinstress/Pinstress corpse and were gonna get the Pinstress crest trust.

[foggy stratus]

I'd also settle for a Sentinel Crest.

[gaunt berry]

There will definitely be a new crest. My question is what it could possibly be…What fits pharloom bay

[frank dove]

Lot of people think it's xylotols master

From the trailer that's what it looks like

[gaunt berry]

Yeah, i mean i got that much

Im just wondering what it could be mechanic wise

Im wondering what the healing ability will be

[foggy stratus]

If it is Xylotol's master then maybe it could be a needle style like how the needle phial works(stab in, drain enemy fluids, remove needle), a needle art that can pierce multiple enemies and a bind that uses accumulated enemy fluids to heal.

[gaunt berry]

Hmm, like the focus/nohit feature in Hunters?

I wonder

[foggy stratus]

Similar but you wouldn't lose it upon hit.

Or it could lose upon hit as a fuck you to the player.

[gaunt berry]

Wondering about nail length. Maybe the dash attack is piercing.

Could be a narrower hitbox, very directional like how Hornet has to ready the Phial

[foggy stratus]

Probably longer since it's a thrust and not a slash.

[gaunt berry]

Like more of a lance type stab than a slash.

hmm

That sounds like itd be a very interesting thing to platform with, just the concept of a downpogo with that “ruleset”…

Needle art or whatever its called is probably like wanderers but longer and less about quick strikes and more about maybe like 2-3 Really powerful jabs

Ah, but that feels like Silkspear. That might be redundant.

I mean, that could be part of the benefit. Silkspear-like attack without the silk cost, “freeing up” another space for a spell (Probably would pair well with Thread Storm), but at the cost of needing more precision compared to, say, Witches or Reapers, which are more swooping and posses largeish hitboxes.

-# God I love Witches crest

[whole holly]

i was playing HK and realized something, Godseeker's tuners resonate with beings of power which they call god, while other bugs and characters(specifically lace) call gods a fathomless being/higher caste

it seems that power needs to be fathomless to earn a title of god/higher being and therefore higher caste that comes with worship

[steep gyro]

So no news on the wisp thicket thing yall?

[whole holly]

what news?

[steep gyro]

Idk
Like
The fact they burn silk
But still have silk particles come out of them when thyy are hit

It's definitely a bug or something they missed to change

[whole holly]

some believe Wisps themselves are shaman spell called flickering flame

also Wisp do require soul and since they are living spell they are alive in sense

Burning Bugs created Father of the Flame as Totem and a God to worship and revere it

they guide wisps as well

Burning Bugs are haunted even if we don't see Silk strands in environment like we do with other places

[wet walrus]

I am sure we already know but godseeker has different understanding of "god". She already admits they aren't gods or anything

Thine gaze is adoring. Ye must think Us Godly. Amusing, foolish. But thou art faced with enormity and beauty, true...

[steep gyro]

Huh i see

[wet walrus]

Tho I don't know how it works
probably though ritual combat and ascension

[whole holly]

yeah i did also contrasted godseeker's and laces understanding of god

[wet walrus]

Can you explain though what you mean by fathomless

[whole holly]

Lace describes Higher Beings/Gods as one in her dialogue

Tch... Hahahaa. Marvellous! So the spider knows something of fathomless beings, and still it hopes to stand against one, a god...
Where do you hide this boundless strength you claim, spider? I've watched your struggle towards us. Yours was a painful, broken trek. One needs grace to stand before the divine.

[foggy stratus]

My understanding is that GodSeekers' definition of a god is just a large bug or strong fighter.

[whole holly]

"beings of power" as her device describes it, yeah

[foggy stratus]

Or just fat like Gruz Mother.

[wet walrus]

True though. Higher beings is described by one of the creators as entities that exist above all. Which means shade lord ascended to such position with power and unity and probably weaverqueen hornet does it by binding gms.

[whole holly]

like Burning Bugs, Godseeker's are also desperate and consider any being with power as divine or godly, it just happens to be specific with Burning Bugs because they formed cult around it

[wet walrus]

She could be so irritated of zote that she hid his boss room in an inaccessible place and called gpz a literal false god

[whole holly]

yeah but that's not a definition, definition is supposed to explain it outside context, "entities that exist above all." is description that's vague and possibly outdated

[whole holly]

she is aware that GPZ is false god conjured by lonely, and it is accurate

[foggy stratus]

Off topic but what's up with Loddie, the guy who runs the pin game?

[whole holly]

wdym?

[foggy stratus]

He looks like a flea but has lady bug like wings and large eyes and seems really apprehensive about giving out prizes he promised.

[whole holly]

scammer trying to scam warrior

guys i will be afk for now, gtg, i have work to do

[wet walrus]

I mean they are immortal, they can control their essence (soul, void essance) naturally, they have powers that are either inaccessible or far surpasses those of the bugs. Etc.

[hexed hinge]

b

[wet walrus]

They are also crazy powerful by godseeker standarts

[foggy stratus]

His and his little friend's needolin dialoge mentione and old tribe of theirs that's gone now. Hrmm.

[twin dragon]

So the godseeker is a fucking moron

Surprise

[foggy stratus]

Who could have guessed?

[wet walrus]

That's why larpseeeker was locked inside a cocoon flowing down the sewers of hallownedt

[whole holly]

yeah but that's not what opposite of what i said

[whole holly]

hey who locked her up though? Five Great Knights? Steel Clan?...

[twin dragon]

fuck we know

[whole holly]

i guess

but we should speculate... why does she never even elaborate on it

[twin dragon]

Ptsd

[grave stream]

ok i know i've talked about it but seriously,
could we cure the voided with Lifeblood in SoS?

Plasmuim

whatever

it is lifeblood

[twin dragon]

No i don't think you can cure the razor liquid that devours everything and anything

[grave stream]

it's not like they're made of void

[twin dragon]

Black threaded bugs are dead shortly after the void takes them

as seen by garmond

[grave stream]

im talking about like garmond

oh

[twin dragon]

That's even worse

Garmond dies... in front of you

[grave stream]

yeah

[twin dragon]

In lace's case, the void started eating her from the outside

[grave stream]

ok i assume we're gonna kill John Lifeblood in SoS so what if we find giga drug

like giga giga drug

the blood of John Lifeblood

[twin dragon]

everyone dies and we get our 58656th infection

[whole holly]

everyone wants lifeblood to be another substance that animates life and live up it it's name, but it is more like infection

[grave stream]

malaria is a cure

[twin dragon]

I'd love it to just

replace biological tissue

and make people crazy from the power they acquire

[grave stream]

Really negative infection VS Extremely Overly Dangerously good infection

[whole holly]

it does replace vital fluids but make people go crazy... isn't that just another haunting and infection, aren't you Infectionslop hater?

[twin dragon]

yes fuck infectionslop, but i meant crazy from being greedy

It makes people ultra roided and unable to control themselves

[near jasper]

Whats the topic rn

[whole holly]

you mean like Soul Master with all the power?

[grave stream]

lifeblood

[whole holly]

Lifeblood

[twin dragon]

but no higher being that controls em n shit

[grave stream]

plasmum

[twin dragon]

yea kinda

but sm was already deranged by that point

[whole holly]

basically turn bugs into blue hulks?

[twin dragon]

Something that brings out the worst out of bugs

[twin dragon]

It already does that yeah

but it reanimates corpses and it is uh related to a higher being probably

Just like

uh

everything we've seen so far

cut that part and ye it's fine

[whole holly]

i mean, why don't you want it to be related to higher being?

[twin dragon]

The fluid itself could be related to it

but not the fact that it evokes control

it's a very tiring trope yk

i can tolerate the haunting but no more

[near jasper]

Hornet kills the lifeblood Guy and we come back to wormways and its worse

[twin dragon]

How much worse can it get omds

Like how lifeblood is set up in both games seems to be pointing at the fact that it makes people ultra roided and hard to control

Kinda like zylotol's obsession with it

Joni was the exception i fucking guess

[whole holly]

oh yeah... i agree i see your vision, you hit nail on the head with that statement and it could tie in with why Lifeblood is so much moderate with it's effects in hallownest

i believe Lifeblood Creature manages it rather than use it to control others

[twin dragon]

Finally something we agree on

[twin dragon]

It seems very passive

and not very keen on dominance

it could fit well enough

[whole holly]

yeah, passive substance

[near jasper]

Do you think lifeblood is still spreading in hallownest after we take the seed it came from in the abyss

[twin dragon]

slowly maybe

[whole holly]

hornet implies it, but i think attunement had effect too, dream nailing blue essence ball in lifeblood room of godhome

[twin dragon]

It still hides

[round plank]

Isn’t this archived

[twin dragon]

And by this logic, shouldn't the radiance's influence be much stronger due to her getting attuned?

[whole holly]

i mean yeah, we need more information on why

[near jasper]

What

[twin dragon]

It might affect the godseeker's realm only but

godseeker lore is as incomplete as ever

we will never know

[round plank]

Sk-lore is listed under archived

Brooooo I don’t have image perms so I can’t show you the screenshot

[whole holly]

doesn't radiance shortly die after we attune to absolute radiance through battle, but hornet notes similarities and that lifeblood has abberations

[near jasper]

Dms exist

[round plank]

[twin dragon]

Ig she's attuned before the fact

everything present in there is attuned

[round plank]

Oh

[twin dragon]

i think

[near jasper]

Do you think we'll be able to be plasmified with the evil fetus

[whole holly]

when what is Godtuner for?

[twin dragon]

idfk

smt smt

stores bosses' essence i think

an then you show it off to the godseeker

I honestly forgot

We don't get much more aside from that

[whole holly]

i don't think this is true

[round plank]

no slow mode

[twin dragon]

Existing in the godhome makes them susceptible to the godseeker's attunement i think

idfk

[shy sorrel]

Is grand mother silk and ||radiance|| from hollow knight 1 related?

[craggy smelt]

I believe so, given their similarities

GMS is a pale being, said to be part of a 'higher caste' of power entities, including the Pale King and the White Lady

Radiance isn't explicitly said to be part of the 'higher caste', but it wouldn't surprise me if she was

[foggy fractal]

as far as we know no, they sure a lot of similarities though and maybe team cherry will expand on it in the future, we know basically nothing as to how higher beings came to be

[shy sorrel]

i needa watch a lore video…

if knight is so strong why cant he kill grand mother silk in the void

[craggy smelt]

they probably could, eventually

it may be that they had to travel from Hallownest to Pharloom and didn't get there in time to have a real fight

GMS was holding back the Void with her silk cocoon, but it was being eaten away and she would have failed given time

[pallid flame]

Guys is Steel assassin Sharpe made up of void?

[near jasper]

Probably not

[candid linden]

did you even play the game yet lol

[pallid flame]

Why not?

[shy sorrel]

I did

[candid linden]

I think he just didnt care

he has no reason to

[shy sorrel]

so he saw a giant spider and thought it was ok?…

[candid linden]

whats she gonna do

[shy sorrel]

She kinda ruined pharloom

[candid linden]

it's not his problem

theres a ton of kingdoms

[shy sorrel]

damn

[edgy nebula]

tk probably wasnt there yet

they only arrive after gms is defeated

[near jasper]

Yeah

We probably just shot out the cocoon at an angle and ended up in their face lol

[edgy nebula]

honestly lace’s plot armor is insane the everbloom is faded at that point and she still aint dead

[near jasper]

Lace would die to 3 silkeaters if she wasnt given plot armor

[edgy nebula]

also the old hearts are bums in hindsight why didnt they all just team up and team on gms

[near jasper]

Skill issue

Also can I point out that skarrs never wrote a single piece of text in the whole game

[robust wagon]

Who knows? he's not in silksong

[midnight reef]

yet*

Sharpe has been confirmed by Team Cherry to be future update content

hes "waiting in the wings"

[robust wagon]

My point still stands, steel assassin sharpe is not in silksong, so we know very little about him

[stone willow]

What

[robust wagon]

?

[craggy smelt]

it'd be funny if he turns out to be Void

all those people were right about his nose after all

[robust wagon]

I mean yeah the steel (people? Caste? What are we calling them...?) guys do seem to have a connection to the void

[craggy smelt]

the actual metal people are called steelhearts in-game
TC referred to the entire group as 'steel society' in an article, though that's not necessarily their confirmed in-game name

and yeah, their Void dabbling has become more explicit since Sharpe's design was first revealed

[robust wagon]

Ah okay thanks

[prisma hatch]

I’m glad Hornet inherited her father’s mental condition of having platforming sections in her memory

[floral quiver]

Because for as metaphysically and personally powerful as they were, you don't win the great game of nations with just the king and major pieces.

None of the Old Hearts had kingdoms that could match Silk and later the Citadel politically or militarily.

Both the Skarr and the Karakid were mighty warriors feared across the land, but they were also centered on their own success, holding off all comers and maintaining their territory was victory, Silk and the Citadel just gave them more glories to claim, and dealing with outsiders would be a sign of weakness.

The inhabitants of Shellwood are dangerous and scary to the average bug, but the average bug is no blooded and harshly trained Choral soldier or cunning Weaver. The children of Nyleth could do a lot of localized damage, thus the deal made by the Citadel, but what would amount to bandit country doesn't topple an empire, it just means a central place to focus ones forces until the situation is rectified, either by blood or ink.

We know old Verdania could do little to stand against the Citadel despite its leaders exceptional personal martial prowess, as its failure to do so is integral to a whole major subplot.

Basically, Heroes don't bring down empires, armies and politics do and none of the Old Kingdoms had the mix of political ability and military might (manpower, equipment, training) to do it on their own, and little self-interest or ability to work together.

It's honestly a very solid and cool refutation of the classic fantasy element of a kingdom relying near solely on a relatively tiny group of very powerful heroes to protect it and deal with threats.

Powerful heroes matter very little when your kingdom is on fire everywhere thanks to all the comparatively weak soldiers lighting fires and trashing things everywhere the grand heroes are not.

[marble oasis]

Where was this said

[foggy fractal]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2025-11-28/the-makers-of-hollow-knight-silksong-aren-t-done-just-yet this article though this link you need to pay for it let me try to find a free version

[marble oasis]

I see

[foggy fractal]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1p995ct/the_entire_interview_of_team_cherry_by_bloomberg/

[marble oasis]

Yeah I found that

[marble oasis]

But thank you

[foggy fractal]

I'm also excited about the dungeons and village

[marble oasis]

I just remember them not saying anything to his backer lmao

[foggy fractal]

yeah that was weird

two more coral towers in the future

[dull agate]

@robust wagon wdym 63/63 and 51/52

[final sphinx]

Achievements probably

[covert night]

achievements

[dull agate]

Ohhh yea

[edgy nebula]

i hope they tease two more areas then cut them to memory sequences like coral tower too!

[foggy fractal]

epic win

[robust wagon]

Achievements in hollow knight and silksong, respectively

[dull agate]

Which one you missing?

Speedrun?

[final sphinx]

I bet it’s steel soul 100%

[robust wagon]

Steel heart

[dull agate]

ahh alr

[wet walrus]

Pale King literally has the perfect creation

If I was Herrah I would definitely put myself to coma just so my kid is blessed with those genes

[whole holly]

eugenics

[twin dragon]

Not quite

[whole holly]

it pretty much is

[foggy stratus]

No not really.

[whole holly]

way he says it it is, hornet was referred to as Pale Gift, Weavers say her as means to best GMS, it pretty much is eugenics, regardless of how you look at it, especially when dalliance is a bargain

[foggy stratus]

How tf is it eugenics?

I still don't understand why you think it.

[whole holly]

Eugenics is a largely discredited set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a population. weren't Weavers doing that? with hornet as member of population?

[foggy stratus]

Hornet is an individual. And when it's confirmed very difficult for them to have children they'll take any chance they can to have one.

[whole holly]

herrah( or whoever it was) literally did arrange reproduction with herrah to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable.

[whole holly]

how does that invalidate what i said?

i don't want to argue, it's like not a lot of people aware of eugenics as practice

[twin dragon]

It's not, wanting for your kid to get your genes and specifically filtering out genes to get a desired result isn't quite the same at all

[whole holly]

Herrah and Weaver community wanted Pale King's heritable information which is reason dalliance was bargain, they wanted chld powerful enough

[twin dragon]

yeah but you're not filtering out other genes and anything that's considered "unworthy"

[whole holly]

it doesn't have to be filtering out other genes to be eugenics

[twin dragon]

It could fall into the broader definition

But not the one im getting at

[whole holly]

"broad definition" your definition is too specific to certain event but it isn't commonly used today

[twin dragon]

it was tried quite recently

history-wise

[whole holly]

again, commonly used definition is practices to improve genetic quality, idk what to tell you, you can't mandate other definition that is context-specific

[twin dragon]

Usually justified mass killings

[whole holly]

but not inherently

[twin dragon]

"Improve" is also highly subjective

[whole holly]

it is, yes and flawed statement

but it regardless offical term is applicable to Weavers desire of hornet's life and herrah's dalliance i guess

[twin dragon]

Honestly maybe

The definition is so broad you might aswell apply it to wanting your kid to be strong or intelligent

and picking sm1 that can provide that

[whole holly]

that's not... do you realize how insensitive it is to say that? wanting kid to be strong and the study of how to arrange reproduction within a population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable aren't equivalent at all

[twin dragon]

Worded that poorly

but picking somebody that could give their genetics to your kid is eugenics technically

By your definition anyways as that's literally what the weavers did

[twin dragon]

eugenics don't have to be on a large scale to be eugenics

[whole holly]

definition isn't broad you are just misusing it, yes it did happen in events that field was co-opted by the certain groups to justify mass murder but there is a reason why multiple terms are used to describe their practices

[twin dragon]

it's still applying eugenics

[whole holly]

it was literally contractual obligation of pale king and hornet was regarded as a "pale gift"

[twin dragon]

Yeah and why did the weavers pick him?

[whole holly]

well, my point is that you are misusing it to be specific to event or inherently tied to genocide then that's not the case

[twin dragon]

I've already told you that I was wrong

As the definition is broader than that

[whole holly]

oh, i guess i didn't see it or misread it, but i guess good for discussion, i have to go, bye

[floral quiver]

The Weavers picked him not for any of his heritable qualities, but in order for Herrah to impregnate at all.

If they could have found another guaranteed successful insemination and birth I'm almost certain they would have.

That the Pale King was a god was effectively incidental and something the Weavers very much thought was unwanted compared to Hornet being a Weaver. The less Wyrm the better.

[twin dragon]

I find it more compelling for the fact that herrah seeked some sort of utility in the pregnancy

then again, silksong reveals that more part-weavers exist and that they've had generations of children

[floral quiver]

Also, dalliance isnt really the word to use. The mating between the King and Herrah was anything but unserious.

[twin dragon]

And it could draw a pretty good parallel with the king, whereas he mightve developed somewhat of a relatilnship with thk, they were still a tool and stayed true to their purpose, herrah developed a genuine bond and ended up wanting whats best for hornet

[whole holly]

it has contractual nature though, hornet is child born bound, she may be bound with responsibilities towards weavers, she is described as pale gift, heritable qualities are relevant

Weavers were most likely aware only destined "daughter of the distant land" could weave them free

[twin dragon]

That message is most likely directed to other weavers

But those other weavers realized it was not possible

[floral quiver]

And her being Pale wasnt something the Weavers wanted. They wanted a Weaver. The Pale qualities were something they wanted as little of as possible, but had to tolerate in order to get an heiress.

"Pale gift" is spoken by Midwife not as an aspirational sentiment but a literal statement.

[twin dragon]

The higher being part played a key part in it imo

[whole holly]

okay what is your evidence for that? how do you know they didn't want pale qualities

[whole holly]

yes, and i am tired of pretending it didn't , hornet is literally "sensed strong with silk"

[twin dragon]

The weavers also wanted her to have their doctrine and be "more weaver" as seen in red memory

Could point towards the first ending having hornet do their bidding and falling into their ways

[floral quiver]

The Weavers wanted Hornet to be Weaver, not Wyrm.

It's a large part of Herrah's part of the Red Memory that while the Weavers wanted a Weaver, a new guardian and queen, Herrah knew that it would be impossible for Hornet to meet those expectations and thus to do what made her fulfilled rather than try for an impossible standard.

[floral quiver]

It wasnt destiny. It was luck. The Weavers who sealed themselves away were gambling and happened to hit the jackpot

[marble oasis]

It can also be read as the gift of someone Pale c.f. Wyrm’s gift to the Nest

[twin dragon]

They accepted her wyrm part as long as she became one of them

Which follows up well into the first ending

They did need her powers to achieve their goals

[floral quiver]

I'm almost certain that if the Radiance had not been an existential threat, the Weavers of Deepnest wouldn't have given a single thought to their old homeland.

[marble oasis]

[floral quiver]

They had escaped web and service eternal

Why go back?

[twin dragon]

Yeah im also confused kinda

The citadel weavers awaited someone to liberate them from their eternal burden but

The ones that did flee never intended to come back

[floral quiver]

Like I said, they were gambling

[twin dragon]

Eeeeh

Maybe they were

But its very dumb

The chances are literally near 0

For that to happen at all

[floral quiver]

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[twin dragon]

Maybe herrah did think about this

[whole holly]

i would argue that they wanted to utilize hornet's physiology for weaver teachings and skill, as she is so clearly sensed strong with silk

[blissful harbor]

not zero, other weaver children existed
they just needed any weaver to come

[floral quiver]

And yet someone did. By Silks own orders even

[twin dragon]

The citadel ones didnt know thay

[twin dragon]

It was never planned by any of the sides

[floral quiver]

No

[twin dragon]

Cindril weavers never intended for them or their children to come back

And the citadel weavers expected someone for some reason?

[floral quiver]

Hornet's journey plays and reads like a destined heroes journey, but is actually entirely coincidence

[twin dragon]

I know

But

[whole holly]

do you agree that hornet was special because of her heritage from Pale King and weavers knew that and wanted to utilize it from start of her conception?

[floral quiver]

Hoped. Prayed. Not expected

[twin dragon]

If thats the case, it is very stupid and out of character for the weavers

[twin dragon]

Expected who or what

[floral quiver]

Someone to save them

[twin dragon]

All of the remaning weavers sealed themselves off and for all they know theyre the only weavers

As the cindril weavers were long gone

[floral quiver]

They didnt expect anyone to free them

[blissful harbor]

i mean he wasn’t sought out for his godliness in making her, but with how crafty the weavers are, yes they likely wanted to use it to their advantage

[floral quiver]

They hoped and prayed a savior would come

[twin dragon]

They hoped for something entirely unrealistic

[whole holly]

i remember they wanted someone to weaver them free

[twin dragon]

Thats not in character for them

[floral quiver]

Hope is unrealistic sometimes

[twin dragon]

Implies getting rid of gms

[floral quiver]

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[twin dragon]

This is definitely a weak aspect of the story that couldve been done much better

[floral quiver]

They didnt expect or plan for someone to come

[twin dragon]

I hate coincidences

[whole holly]

hornet's conception was very contractual, though, it is not? Herrah wanted a child in exchange for becoming a dreamer

[floral quiver]

Why?

[blissful harbor]

yea, PK asked her to be one
if not she wouldn’t have made thst deal

i give you my life, i want a child in return

[twin dragon]

Makes all of hornets journey seem.. random... and it being planned out would tie very well into what she was taught by the weavers

And it would make sense why hornet is part higher being

[floral quiver]

Taught? What was she taught?

[whole holly]

regardless weavers did want to utilize hornet's physiology, PK's child was opportunity that made sacrifice to be a Dreamer worth it, at least in my opinion, even if PK approached her to be a Dreamer

[twin dragon]

Be a weaver

[blissful harbor]

well yea

[floral quiver]

Yes, and?

[blissful harbor]

she’s pretty special

[twin dragon]

Or, give into her instincts

Take over

Instead of listening to herrah and weaving her own path

[floral quiver]

Yes. Deepnest.

[whole holly]

i am glad we agree

[floral quiver]

Rather than abandoning her home to Hallownest

[twin dragon]

She couldve been the queen of deepnest but she wouldve been morphed by the weavers desires, not hers

[floral quiver]

She was the heiress of two kingdoms and only one actually needed her

[twin dragon]

Thats what plays into weaver queen

[floral quiver]

And it wasnt hallownest

[floral quiver]

Yes

[twin dragon]

Pharloom did need her but theyve long forgotten about it

Im pretty positive that their return was retconned

[floral quiver]

No. They needed someone who could beat Silk.

That it was Hornet was coincidence

[whole holly]

they wanted freedom, they somewhat expected a possibility of their freedom if they prayed

[twin dragon]

Yes, for that they needed great power, they tried that with eva

[floral quiver]

No. They hoped for freedom. Expectation and hope are two different things.

[twin dragon]

And retake their old land, remember, the weavers are territorial

[whole holly]

yeah, Hornet was successful attempt

[floral quiver]

One can hope for something without expecting it

[twin dragon]

Im not arguing against the fact that its a coincidence, but it is a questionable writing choice

[floral quiver]

Again. The ones who left? They were free. They already had a kingdom to rule and only left when an undefeatable existential crisis by another god forced them to flee

[whole holly]

you can say they expected a successful attempt of savior given all their attempts that spanned beyond pharloom, thus they expected a chance to come true

[twin dragon]

They were free but pharloom was still theirs in their mind

[floral quiver]

You could say that. You'd be wrong.

You dont word things the way the Weavers who stayed word things when you're expecting a savior eventually

You word it like that when you're shooting a one in a million long shot that you expect to fail but hope to succeed.

[twin dragon]

Else i cant rlly see why herrah picked the pale king specifically, having had a husband at one point

[blissful harbor]

she didn’t pick him

[twin dragon]

Did she?

[blissful harbor]

it was a trade

[twin dragon]

Yeah but asking for what she asked

[floral quiver]

Because her husband died and couldnt impregnate her when he lived

[blissful harbor]

weavers are known to have trouble with birth
god genes are strong

[finite cave]

the lord sire died

she didnt have a royal baby

[twin dragon]

Several weavers had children who had generations after them

[floral quiver]

Trouble is a major underselling

[finite cave]

the weavers thought her a common beast

[blissful harbor]

it’s a rare thing

possible but rare

[finite cave]

if the heir was some common beast spawn she would have no chance to be a weaver

[twin dragon]

Mhm

[finite cave]

if she had royal blood (even if it was pk's blood) she had a better shot and more opportunities in life

[twin dragon]

But im willing to bet they arent part higher being

[blissful harbor]

that’s been retconned

[whole holly]

that's not case, at least for Hallownest Weavers, they expected for freedom in hornet's potential, while other Weavers created tools, Hornet was bred for power. Her physiology makes her the only one capable of "weaving them free," her birth was a calculated move to preserve the Weaver legacy.

[blissful harbor]

herrah is a weaver, she’s no a common beast

[whole holly]

it was Mushroom Clan, i believe

[finite cave]

no but he was probably a special sort of bug

[twin dragon]

In deepnest, not in pharloom though

[twin dragon]

Wish i knew

[finite cave]

seeing how he had the weavers' respect presumably

[twin dragon]

Pharloom still reflects her purpose in deepnest

If she were to be shaped by the weavers, as they wanted, she would just take over as she does in weaver queen

[whole holly]

who? Deepnest Sire?

[finite cave]

yeah

[floral quiver]

No?

Again, the Weavers of Hallownest werent gunning to reclaim the homeland. They had a place to rule.

Hornet's physiology doesnt matter. That she could be conceived at all was what mattered.

[twin dragon]

All this character work to then create the slab incident and 4th old heart

[finite cave]

herrah literally tells hornet she can choose her path

[pallid flame]

Guys i have a question, is Sharpe void?

[finite cave]

just accept she's a good mother

[twin dragon]

Hes not in game

[foggy stratus]

[twin dragon]

We dont know

[finite cave]

maybe?

[whole holly]

i mean Mushroom said those words not weavers, Weavers haven't called Herrah a common beast though, those statement come from Mushrooms

[blissful harbor]

no way to tell yet

[floral quiver]

Common beast was Hallownest parlance

[twin dragon]

Yeah she develops a bond with her, even if hornet could just be a tool to continue their legacy

[finite cave]

how is that related i was talking about how the sire was probabaly a special bug as he wasnt a weaver yet he had their respect

[twin dragon]

Parallels the pale king

[pallid flame]

Because if it is, the steel "masters" may be able to control void

[finite cave]

oh yeah they defo can lol

they enslaved a part weaver

they have bugs they recruit or even breed in house to control void

[whole holly]

Yes! threat from Pharloom still remained, Weavers were trying to escape Silken Sight, Hornet's physiology did matter, as it was opportunity for Hornet to realize her full potential which exceeded Weaver's and that's what weavers instilled

[twin dragon]

Nah they js teach that probably

And then slime them if out of control

[finite cave]

sula (an unexperienced child) can manipulate void to the extent he summons a blob of it

[pallid flame]

And maybe that's why they're looking for Hornet or they want to capture the shade lord because they want to control it.

[whole holly]

who said they had weavers respect?????

[foggy stratus]

According to Hornet that's apparently impossible tho(i don't trust that)

[twin dragon]

No. She touched the void and thats a sin in their eyes

[blissful harbor]

that’s personal bias

[finite cave]

they either tolerated or respected him, i'm sure rhe weavers could just

kill the guy who was going to tarnish their queen's bloodline

[blissful harbor]

not a hard and fast rule

[pallid flame]

Speculating if Sharpe is void, if he isn't then this theory will not be there

[whole holly]

i mean he is dead... we just don't know what killed him... it is possible

[finite cave]

i do think the shade lord thing hss SOME credibility

[twin dragon]

I dont think they know hornet has relation to it

[finite cave]

back in my steel city days i figuref they had very malicious void intentions

[pallid flame]

Maybe that's because steel masters can control void unlike pale king

[twin dragon]

Zii tells you directly why youre gonna get hunted

[finite cave]

perhaps theyre BOTH scholars of the ancients

[whole holly]

she likely meant to fully restrain and control it under will, to same extent she can do with silk, to bigger extent that sula does for sure, she is still proved wrong by Lord of Shades, though

[blissful harbor]

or the steel clan is what remains of them

[pallid flame]

And maybe that's why they want to capture the shade lord and control it 🙏, and maybe we'll get a third game in City of steel.

[floral quiver]

No.

The Weavers attempted to instill in Hornet that she was a Weaver. Her Wyrm nature was a bad thing in their eyes because it got in the way of her Weaverness.

The threat of Pharloom wasnt even considered. They had escaped, they ruled a new kingdom

[pallid flame]

The last part is bullshit but it's interesting lol

[foggy stratus]

She also slanders the Wings Moulds iirc which i don't think is at all accurate.

[whole holly]

Weavers aren't telling her that for sure, Herrah is exception, though she still conceived hornet by contract

[finite cave]

i personally don't get why they would make two extremely similar looking npcs who happen to do extremely similar things who also just happen to have extremely similar masters as a coincidence

the steel city has some evil shit going on

[finite cave]

yes but chances are herrah had hornet with pk SO she could carve her own path

[pallid flame]

Maybe they will be our secret to the boss rush in silksong? Like god masters?

[finite cave]

she literally says " hey theyre telling you do that do what you want "

[twin dragon]

I agree with gadget on this one despite her other questionable takes

[finite cave]

they enslaved a weaver, have bugs specialised in controlling void to an extent WHO HAVE MASTERS

that's INSANE

[floral quiver]

There's an assumption that there's an eons long plan to create a weapon and make a glorious return to the homeland among the Deepnest Weavers.

There was not.

[twin dragon]

We dont know if the weaver was enslaved

they found her under the city

she couldve been hiding

[finite cave]

they inadvertently control void because their guys control their other guys (jiji/sula types)

very cool

[dire lynx]

they also turn people into steel bugs and reprogramme them to obey

[whole holly]

this is inaccurate... i never specified Wyrm in hornet's physiology i meant traits she derived from being pale, which does allow her to exceed weaver's potential and be sensed strong with silk, Threat of Pharloom was considered considering it was active threat against weaver sovereignty and escape from silken silk clearly wasn't reliable for weavers as hornet got captured

[pallid flame]

I'm telling you if Sharpe is void they're coming to Capture Shade lord to control it 🙏

[twin dragon]

would the enslave a weaver? abso fucking lutely

[foggy stratus]

Isn't controlling/summoning Void like forbidden by the Steel Masters tho?

[near jasper]

whats the topic rn

[finite cave]

the steel city is super cool but if they make it a dlc i would be pretty sad

[twin dragon]

steel city NEEDS to be a dlc

[finite cave]

there's already so much shit wr know about it THEY CAN HARNESS THE VOID

[twin dragon]

it can be a huge one

[dire lynx]

third game where we play thk in city of steel

[pallid flame]

Idk i would like a third game but dlc will be nice too

[finite cave]

the dlc would need to be like 3x the size of godhome

and have an actual story

[pallid flame]

Maybe sharpe dlc and city of steel game?

[twin dragon]

Base silksong's already bigger than hk i still have hopes

[finite cave]

i was talking about this earlier

[twin dragon]

you fucking vegetable

[pallid flame]

Yeah i think that too

[finite cave]

i mesn a few days ago

[floral quiver]

Millennia after Deepnest stopped existing as a sovereign polity.

It was such an unexpected thing that Hornet had no clue who they were.

[whole holly]

i believe addressed that by saying herrah is an exception, Weavers dream nail says "for protection" "princess" so Hornet was special weaver in their eyes

[twin dragon]

Playing as thk would imply that embrace the void is canon

which is uhh

[finite cave]

like maybe steel city guys arepassing through they notice thk's condition and nudge them to the steel city so tgey can be captured

[twin dragon]

a questionable ending

as dream no more is a perfect fit

[finite cave]

we see the shade lord in sotv

[twin dragon]

A flash of it

[dire lynx]

holy whine, idgaf

[twin dragon]

to provoke ambiguity

[twin dragon]

You dont gaf but i do

i want my stories good

[floral quiver]

She was an heiress to a kingdom who's leadership cannot conceive reliably. Of course she's special and protected

[pallid flame]

THK survives in one only right?

[near jasper]

thk game in steel city starts by forcing the shade onto a steel body

[dire lynx]

correct

[twin dragon]

Ye

[whole holly]

hornet did have no clue, because she was only weaver alive in hallownest... threat still existed clearly

[pallid flame]

That's what I'm saying

[twin dragon]

that would imply they somehow captured the shadow

[pallid flame]

That will be so cool

[twin dragon]

which opens a whole can of worms

also thk is hella large yk...

[near jasper]

collector

[finite cave]

they released an ending locked behinf the hardests boss ingame jn the hardest dlc ingame in the hardest challenge ingame where the main villain of the game is obliterated permanently, the mc of the game goes on to become an ancient prophesised god feared by many and the base game final boss who everyone loves survives

[twin dragon]

Collector is a baller

[pallid flame]

Okay hear me out, hornet gets captured by sharpe Our little knight comes to save her again but boom they capture it instead

[dire lynx]

so are the steel people

[finite cave]

an ending this happy with this placement just happening to be the true ending wouldnt be implausible

[twin dragon]

Yeah but its questionable to tk's character and wtf even happened

[finite cave]

fuck no

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/styx-silksong-bug-styx-love-silksong-styx-gif-5523667019778148263

[finite cave]

the steel city could just be

super advanced and big

big guy in a bigger world

[twin dragon]

Thk is already a good character with a finished arc

[floral quiver]

@whole holly You act like Deepnest was some assumed pitstop in the Weavers grand campaign. It wasn't. Deepnest was home. A mighty sovereign state in its own right. the Deepnest Weavers did not care about Pharloom. They had Deepnest to worry about.

[whole holly]

that's deliberate misunderstanding, considering hornet was the protection mechanism, not protected princess, weavers say "for protection" her uniqueness in this context is only because of her paleness + weaver lineage and weavers were aware she was stronger and could exceed everything they planned, she was even trained by Vespa, and she is confirmed to be "sensed strong with silk" which is weird observation to make in other contexts

[finite cave]

" finished arc " their arm is gone their mask is broken theyre stuck walking on their nail and they have no closure for their suffering

a character who suffered so much and went through all of that for hundreds of years getting no closure is not a finished arc it's a shit one

[pallid flame]

I mean there is a reason why they show THKa at the end, they can't just leave it like that

[twin dragon]

Except they do? they're like the one reason the siblings getting rest after killing the radiance makes sense

[foggy stratus]

They get to crash on Sly's couch.

[floral quiver]

When she was a child there were Weavers in Deepnest. If they cared about the homeland as much as you're claiming then Hornet would have been raised on stories of her glorious homeland.

[twin dragon]

They literally aid the knight by themselves to finish off the radiance

[finite cave]

they literally just limp out of the temple in etv delicate flower

[twin dragon]

In etv yeah

not in dnm

[finite cave]

etv is the canon one

[twin dragon]

which is why dnm tops

it's not

[finite cave]

i do like dnm more but etv is the canon one

[twin dragon]

It's not confirmed

I bet its ambiguous on purpose

[whole holly]

when Grand Mother Silk actively targets weavers across the world, then Weavers would be threatened, so no more strawman please

[finite cave]

yeah the shade lord just manifested without the godtuner in the abyss

[twin dragon]

but dnm fits so much better

[twin dragon]

Tk also manifests as the dnm form

at the same time

[finite cave]

well obviously????

[twin dragon]

Yeah

pick one buddy

[finite cave]

they take their normal form to see hornet the shade lord form is probably just to control the void

the shade lord being there ata all disproves your point

[twin dragon]

The void given form doesnt seem to need a godtuner to be in this form as they literally murder the godseeker

[foggy stratus]

Its probably easier to go down to a lesser form after getting a major power boost than to go up a form without a major power boost.

[whole holly]

i clearly specified freedom and sovereignty, i never claimed that Weavers of Hallownest cared about homeland, but i don't even have to claim that considering Weaversong Charms says Weavers departed for their old home...

[twin dragon]

and prevail

[finite cave]

the semantics of why the shade lord flits dont matter

[twin dragon]

????

[finite cave]

theyre there meanaing that they exist

[twin dragon]

tk can submit the void even without needing to be the shade lord

[finite cave]

the shade lord is in the ending dude

[twin dragon]

They can't be both at the same time

Actually

[finite cave]

explain to me how the knight became the shade lord without the godseeker

[twin dragon]

the shade lord is called void entity

the "shade lord" is actually dnm knight

[twin dragon]

He didn't, tc left is purposefully ambiguous

[finite cave]

what are you talking about dude💔💔💔💔💔

[twin dragon]

just because it flashes doesn't mean it NEEDS to be wtv you want it to be

[finite cave]

the shade lord appears in the ending

[whole holly]

Silken charm containing a song of farewell, left by the Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home.

[finite cave]

son you can't cope this hard because you dislike an ending

[finite cave]

Silken charm containing a song of farewell, left by the Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home.

[twin dragon]

it flashes for less than a second 2 times

buddy you fucking vegetable

did you play the game

[finite cave]

oh my god

[twin dragon]

at all

[finite cave]

so it isnt there

[twin dragon]

my call is it really isn't

[finite cave]

so the shade lord isnt there it wasnt present

[twin dragon]

it's something tc did to provoke ambiguity

[whole holly]

???

[finite cave]

we dont see it in the endint

[twin dragon]

the dnm knight form has also more screentime

[finite cave]

it's the true ending of the game theyre not going to add such blatant imagery to fuck with fans

[twin dragon]

you're telling me

that

the fucking knight can just

change forms

in an instant+

like that

are we deadass

[finite cave]

they can control the void they ARE the void

obviously they can change their form if they have perfect control over what their form is comprised of

[twin dragon]

Why would the knight revert to their non-void entity form

at all

[twin dragon]

This isnt technically true as the knight needs to slash away tendrils

[finite cave]

it sounds a bit absurd but hornet DOES fall asleep after she sees the knight

[twin dragon]

and yk, they cant just do anything with the puddles in the abyss

[twin dragon]

?

[finite cave]

not the shade lord, she sees the knight and finally calms down

[twin dragon]

what does this even have to do

[twin dragon]

She sees the knight before that btw

whenever they rescue her

[finite cave]

yeah she sees the knight not the glimpse of the shade lord

[twin dragon]

mate why is your point based off of 2 miliseconds of a flashing image

[finite cave]

oh my god

[twin dragon]

it is very obvious that they intended this to be ambiguous

[finite cave]

because there's no reason for that image to be there if it isn't actually there in the scene

[twin dragon]

We don't see any actual activity from the shade lord itself

[twin dragon]

Mhm

literally serves no purpose but to imply ambiguity

[finite cave]

you can't just say " uhm actually im ignoring the image of the character from the ending i want it to be my favourite ending " and act like it's a point

[twin dragon]

ive got no idea why they did that at all

[twin dragon]

No?

oh my god hk fans

for fucks sake

[finite cave]

your point is " well i dont care if it's there its only there for a little bit so it isnt there and it was done for ambiguity "

[twin dragon]

No, it's literally done for ambiguity

that's the entire reason it appears

[finite cave]

prove it

[twin dragon]

fym prove it

it is proven

have you seen the ending?

[finite cave]

you can't fork it up to ambiguity with no proof

[twin dragon]

it is also more logical to be dnm because it fits

[finite cave]

the image appearing itself points more to it actually existing in the scene then ambiguity

[twin dragon]

Mate it flashes 2 times, theres no agency that proves it is the shade lord explicitely

[finite cave]

have you ever heard of occam's razor

[twin dragon]

Plus tk is also shown as the siblings

and their dnm form

[blissful harbor]

occam’s razor would suggest it’s just a flash right? it appears for a second as hornet is in the middle of blacking out

[finite cave]

no i'm saying their point involves unnecessary baseless complexities

[dire lynx]

the attacks on the tendrils are also shade lords, not the knights smaller form

[twin dragon]

its literally not baseless what

[twin dragon]

well how do you know that

the knight slashes the radiance away in dnm aswell

[finite cave]

sorry what are yall talking about with the tendrils

[dire lynx]

because its big slashes like we see in godhome not the slappy things we see in dnm

[twin dragon]

Void dart thingies

that go after hornet

[finite cave]

ohhh

[twin dragon]

I guess?

[dire lynx]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-gif-23741519

[twin dragon]

tk could slash it away just like that

[dire lynx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEWWOeoQWcs&pp=ygUOZ29kaG9tZSBlbmRpbmc%3D

[whole holly]

what was purpose of repeating this?

[floral quiver]

Only after it was completely untenable to stay. Which is my point. They only fled back home because their new kingdom was doomed to fail thanks to a god, their Queen was comatose thanks to the failed plans of another god and their princess was off gallivanting around the corpse of the kingdom that took their queen away for a plan that didnt work.

[finite cave]

i percieved dnm beatdown scene as the knight is just stronger in its void form as it now has complete control over that form

[dire lynx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRGddsDcyrE&t=52s

[twin dragon]

And tk just changing their form in miliseconds also doesn't seem like a thing they can do

[finite cave]

funny

[twin dragon]

aura farming

[whole holly]

which kind of proves why they wanted hornet as protection in first place, she would be better suited than most other weavers

[twin dragon]

There's also no mention of thk whatsoever in the game, and this adds unnecessary ambiguity as to what the fuck happened with thk

[finite cave]

dont see why there would be

hornet doesnt talk to like anyone about her past a crap ton

[twin dragon]

Yeah but like

she got captured and shit

was thk not just there

what happened

how they went out

did they fight did they not?

[whole holly]

he is either dead or alive, depending on the ending we chose in HK

[finite cave]

" oh no my little sibling is at home alone "

[dire lynx]

first is godhome, second sotv

[finite cave]

could have just not been there

[finite cave]

wow

[twin dragon]

Plus hornet likely directly saw tk's corpse and this inspired the lost lace journal entry

cracked shell or wtv

[finite cave]

!wiki lost laxe

!wiki lost laxe

!wiki lost lace

[twin dragon]

which doesnt happen etv

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Lost_Lace

Hollow Knight Wiki

Lost Lace

Lost Lace is the final boss of Act 3 in Hollow Knight: Silksong. She is the Void-possessed form of Lace.

Location

The Abyss

​

Combat Values

Health

1800

Damage Modifiers

1.7    1.25    1.1    1.05    0.95

Reward

Sister of the Void ending

Journal Kills

1

​

Miscellaneous

Gender

Female

Voice

Mitsuki Hashimoto

Theme

Lost Lace (Phase 1) (Phase 1-2)
Lost Lace (Phase 2) (Phase 3-4)

[whole holly]

SotV purposefully leaves that vague, if VGForm had THK's shade present it would explain things, but either way THK is most likely either a shade or vessel, in both cases alive

[whole holly]

!wiki lost laxe

[finite cave]

the dark didn't take the knight

[twin dragon]

"Alive"

[finite cave]

the knight took the dark

[finite cave]

!wiki lost laxe

[twin dragon]

To hornet it did

mind you she didn't see what happened in thk's mind

[whole holly]

i mean as alive as vessels and shades are

[finite cave]

if ansything the infection did

she didnt see the fight

[twin dragon]

Yeah but she does see that tk probably achieved its goal

[finite cave]

to her the knight hopped in, thk was on the floor and then the black egg exploded and the vessels just vanished with the marmalade fog

[twin dragon]

as the infection thingy roots withered away

[floral quiver]

They wanted protection from the Radiance.

The Weavers got two things out of the deal with the Pale King and lost one.

They gained an heiress and protection from the Infection. In trade they gave their queen as a essential part of said protection.

[twin dragon]

she blacked out n woke up to their corpse

[finite cave]

to her it could have been a sacrifice or something

[floral quiver]

It just turned out that the King's plan was a failure. So they left

[twin dragon]

I mean the void did somewhat take tk as yk, they're now part of it

[finite cave]

didnt she know about voidheart anyeay

[twin dragon]

Yes, tk's still in the void doe

part of it

[finite cave]

that's not taking they made a covenant with the void

[twin dragon]

she probably didn't know tk could be living as a shade till sotv

[whole holly]

hornet was for protection, herrah being the dreamer was sacrifice, considering weaver corpses that say it is

[twin dragon]

what

[finite cave]

I'm impressed little ghost. You've burdened yourself with the fate of this world, yet you still stand strong. To break the Dreamer's seals would alone be considered an impossible task, but to accept that void inside yourself, that casts you as something rather exceptional.

she knew they could accept the void within themself meaning she knew it wouldnt so to speak " take " thdm

[marble oasis]

What are you guys talking about protection for

[finite cave]

you know they willingly went in or whstever

[twin dragon]

Also yk that hornet's against unnecessary sacrifices

so she won't let lace die just because it is more convenient to do that

[whole holly]

hornet as half wyrm half weaver for protection of weavers

[marble oasis]

Who said Hornet is for protection of weavers

[finite cave]

she won't let lace die because if lace stays down there and dies gms will keep thrashing about which keeps the void around

[whole holly]

this is better point

[dull agate]

Which line is this?

[finite cave]

exhautsed dialogue outside the egg

[dull agate]

After hornet 2?

[marble oasis]

They say “for protection” because Weaversong was supposed to be protection for Hornet lmao

[finite cave]

egg

[floral quiver]

See the problem is that that nothing implies that.

Thats your headcanon.

[whole holly]

also these

[finite cave]

we see its owner after we take it

[river lily]

Who is more homophobic hornet or pale king

[twin dragon]

This is true but keep in mind that she would eventually quell down

even as the kingdom fell apart

[finite cave]

joe mama🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[floral quiver]

Again. Thats all you.

[marble oasis]

its owner is the knight

[whole holly]

this is my main point

[river lily]

My mama isn't named Joe

[twin dragon]

and yk, hornet also takes lace back when kicing the void out of her

[finite cave]

yeah when she loses her strength and the void consumes her after which everything will be in pieces

gms stopped because she knew lace would be safe wirh hornet

[dire lynx]

obviously hornet

[whole holly]

.

[river lily]

At first though hornet is more homophobic but then pale king dropped thousand of non by babies

[marble oasis]

Herrah only sought PK as a mate because he has godly virility capable of impregnating a Weaver

Not because she wanted a Wyrmspawn child

[finite cave]

if hornet just kicked lace back down after purging the void in her and went up.the void would takse lace again and gms would keep thrashing

[twin dragon]

She kinda just died giving her last strength out to hornet so she could escape

[finite cave]

yeah which is why she gives her her last strength

[river lily]

Godly wyrm sperm

[marble oasis]

i didn’t want to get so explicit

[twin dragon]

during the fight the cocoon starts breaching

[finite cave]

she knows hornet is the only wsy to savelace hence why she gives her her strength because she's fighting a losing battle

[twin dragon]

she wouldnt last much longer

[floral quiver]

Deepnest needed an heiress. That's what they wanted

[whole holly]

not really, weaver corpse who says that is in breakable room, which doesn't make sense since hornet's room is there

[twin dragon]

True, that's if hornet does what she does

[river lily]

Is that the correct word

[twin dragon]

if she didn't, gms couldn't do much

aside from watching her own demise

[river lily]

Does " heir" have a feminine version?

[floral quiver]

... yes

[river lily]

Huh never knew

[floral quiver]

Heiress

[blissful harbor]

the breakable room with the incomplete seal of binding?

[whole holly]

which part of it? reading comprehension is headcanon?

[finite cave]

gms would just thrash until her barrier broke and she fell to the void, dragging her silk down further and even more so destroying the kingdom

[whole holly]

yeah

[blissful harbor]

the seal used for protection???

wouldn’t it be talking about that

[finite cave]

the void would be gone but like so would anyone

[marble oasis]

This just isn’t true

[river lily]

Why don't all nouns have a feminine version

[finite cave]

heirs were typically male iirc

[twin dragon]

If her cocoon broke she wouldnt be able to do that

as the silk's the thing that is suspending it

[river lily]

That's not what I was asking

[finite cave]

fat greasy kings would say " bear me a heir " and their wives would know he meant a boy hence heiress

[finite cave]

heir has one because it's typically masculine

[whole holly]

regardless of that, Weavers wanted hornet to reach her potential as child of Pale Being and a Weaver, i have noted herrah as exception despite conceiving hornet as part of contract

[marble oasis]

The Weaver you’re thinking of says “For bargain made”

[river lily]

That doesn't make sense, there's a lot of jobs that are typically feminine/masculine and aren't gendered

[finite cave]

like?

[whole holly]

oh, it is interesting Weaversong contains song of farewell, which is weaver's way to record their history, i doubt it was intended as protection for Princess Protector of Hallownest

[finite cave]

it could have been but i personally think it was for lonely weaver

[river lily]

Wait when were women allowed to work again

[whole holly]

i might have misremembered

[floral quiver]

An assumption not held true by the fact that the Weavers didn't want her to be wyrmlike, and thus through implication didnt want her to be pale. They wanted a Weaver and took what they could get

[twin dragon]

and the shade lord in the ending doesn't seem to have much agency as the focus seems to be on the dnm form of tk, but idk about the tendril slashes

[finite cave]

remember when people thought lonely weaver would be in silksomg

[twin dragon]

who the fuck

oh the one in weaver's den

[finite cave]

the weaver whose friends you abduct at knifepoint

[marble oasis]

Well

[whole holly]

"Weavers didn't want her to be wyrmlike, and thus through implication didnt want her to be pale." ???????

[marble oasis]

Wyrm and Pale are not necessarily the same thing

[twin dragon]

How the fuck is this discussion still going on

[marble oasis]

It’s not like Weavers hate Pallor outright, their Silk is Pale

[river lily]

What about pale the colour

[twin dragon]

Also dnm is just a much better fit for the story overall, i really doubt tc would decide to use an ending so ambiguous as etv as the true canon ending

[whole holly]

it is not assumption she is stated to be sensed strong with silk, and having a pale being lineage. why would weavers waste opportunity if they could successfully imbue hornet with weaver teachings...

pretending that Pale King's nature was not part of consideration and herrah only did it because she wanted a child is wrong, she clearly changed her mind for hornet to be herself but clearly contract was about "Pale gift for/to the brood"

[floral quiver]

... that was said by the citadel eons after the Weavers left.

In fact, if they were gung ho about using Hornet why did they leave her behind?

[whole holly]

we don't know details and that point requires assuming weavers neglected hornet

"Pale gift to the Nest and the Beast, and fair trade for sacrifice made."

[floral quiver]

... they did.

Like. There's a reason she thinks she's a daughter of Hallownest rather than a daughter of Deepnest.

[marble oasis]

She wasn’t theirs to take

[floral quiver]

She thinks that because the Weavers neglected her because she was something other than Weaver

[blissful harbor]

the daughter of hallownest thing is about the region as a whole, not the kingdom
she’s a daughter of hallownest cause she was raised by the three queens of the region

[whole holly]

??? hallownest could indeed refer to area or collective identity even weaversong says : Silken charm containing a song of farewell, left by the Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home.

[whole holly]

yeah it could be collective identity too

[dire lynx]

she was still raised mostly by the white lady in the white palace tbf

[floral quiver]

... she was the heiress of their kingdom born in a political deal to get them an heir and protect them from the Infection.

She wasn't Hallownest's to claim.

[gentle aspen]

she wasn’t neglected by the weavers what

[marble oasis]

Hallownest didn’t “claim” her lol she just voluntarily stuck around and the Weavers couldn’t force her to go with them (although I doubt they tried)

[gentle aspen]

she has a weapon similar to ones used by First Sinner and even GMS iirc, her clothing is similar to the weaver ones and she was literally trained by them

[floral quiver]

Why do you think she relates much more to Hallownest the state than Deepnest the state?

[gentle aspen]

she doesn’t?

where do you get this from

the term “daughter of Hallownest?”

[whole holly]

because hallownest is used to encompass collective area and identity including deepnest

[gentle aspen]

that doesn’t mean she was neglected by the weavers

she also spent a lot of time protecting Hallownest like

[marble oasis]

That also means nothing considering how much she loves her mother

Who was

uh

Queen of Deepnest

[floral quiver]

The fact that nearly all of her traits and mentality come from the culture of Hallownest.

[whole holly]

as evidenced by her lineage, her being brought up three queens

[gentle aspen]

so you’re just making stuff up now

[dire lynx]

the weapon was a gift from the hive, who trained her in combat

[marble oasis]

The Weavers were like a little gaggle of eunuchs to the “State” of Deepnest

[gentle aspen]

I’m aware dawg

the needle is a pharloom thing

[marble oasis]

needles are a weaver thing though

[gentle aspen]

it was made by the hive and bears resemblance to Hallownest weaponry because the hive made it

[whole holly]

it was clearly custom made for hornet, since Hive Knight doesn't even use same type of weapon

[floral quiver]

Well no. Im doing what everyone here is doing. Taking my interpretation of the story and narrative as truth.

It's just that my opinions are heterodoxical.

[blissful harbor]

they really took a nail and stretched it into needle shape

[marble oasis]

She hunts like a Weaver

[gentle aspen]

well no

you’re literally saying her traits and mentality is hallownestian and the weavers neglected her

[floral quiver]

her fighting style is almost pure Bee.

[marble oasis]

She says the pharlids hunt like her

Hence

[gentle aspen]

That’s not an interpretation, the final is almost entirely wrong and the former is weird

[gentle aspen]

No?

[marble oasis]

Also like where are you getting this

[gentle aspen]

this better not be “she fights like hive knight” because almost every boss in HK fights similarly

visually speaking

[marble oasis]

She fights like Skarr Stalkers more than Hive Knight imo

[gentle aspen]

she’s a hunter ambush predator who uses silk and tools along with her weapons

that’s not at all Hallownest

[marble oasis]

that’s true

hallownest is a very nail dominant culture

[gentle aspen]

it’s a combination of her training under the hive, her training under the weavers, and her own personal touches protecting the fallen kingdom

its not solely one thing reducing Hornet to one thing is fallacious

[marble oasis]

Good cooking joker

You can cook

[whole holly]

Phantom and Lace fight really similarly to Hornet at base fight, with parry charge attack, dash attack, but visual cues aren't lore since they depend solely on interpretation

[blissful harbor]

phantom is intentional at least

[whole holly]

i mean yeah... but they are implications or callbacks