sk-lore

[plain ruin]

What kind of entertainment did the Stage provide, other than the theatrics of that one red dude

[near jasper]

Strip club

[floral quiver]

Unknown.

Headcanon time! 😄

I say standup!

[plain ruin]

well yeah but I'm just wondering what they could've had

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/blahaj-shonk-attack-camera-dive-shark-gif-14344361424253681658

[floral quiver]

Really bad religious standup

Like the old choirbugs laugh while the youngsters look on in derisive exasperation

[marble oasis]

Maybe so we don’t feel bad about extincting the flies

Why they didn’t do that for Karm I have no idea

[plain ruin]

I'm guessing a lot of it would've had some religious elements or purposes

Like an opera

[finite wind]

If we go by the game, the fourth heart is from the green prince, so when she got to him, all of those particle and sound effects that tell hornet that she can get into someone's head popped out, so she got curious and got in green prince's head. Then she explored and found his hideout, green prince tried to kill her, hornet in self defense killed him and yeah that's thst

[near jasper]

Not necessarily the green princes

[floral quiver]

Oooh fun

[dire lynx]

fr, couldve just given us a new alate

[near jasper]

I think the stage was religious readings from the vaultkeeper pointiffs

[finite wind]

I'd assume she first got the three main hearts and had no time to explore greymour even more

[marble oasis]

She wants to test her skills for the fight waiting in the Abyss

[plain ruin]

Gilly fills that role

[floral quiver]

Potentially stories of the Citadels past glories

[marble oasis]

Gilly is not an ant

[near jasper]

Not really

[near jasper]

Why take the heart though

[plain ruin]

Hornet: Know, in time, these caves may see opportunity to regrow, flourish even, though that rebirth is itself a task enormous... longer than a lifetime, many lifetimes.
Hornet: For that task to succeed, it will fall to bugs like you to sow the first seeds.

[finite wind]

It was there after the whole incident happened

[plain ruin]

Gilly doesn't have to be an ant

[marble oasis]

And that’s not talking about the ants

[finite wind]

He attacked and she had no choice to defend herself

[marble oasis]

It automatically happens when she kills them

[finite wind]

Maybe she thinks there's a way to bring him back

[marble oasis]

And it would be strange for her to beat them up until they’re on 1 HP and then be like well i’m satisfied

[plain ruin]

Maybe not, but it serves a similar role to Broodling's existence

The Skarr will die, but their lands will not die with them

[dire lynx]

we already know where sermons were given

[near jasper]

Its weird how much of pharlooms geography is random twisting tunnels when the caves were probably eroded down by water

[marble oasis]

They have masks and props in the back

[near jasper]

How much of pharloom is just tunnels bell eater dug and how much is natural landscape

[plain ruin]

Moss Grotto, The Marrow, Border Caves, Far Fields, Wormways all seem mostly natural

[dire lynx]

the lands will die though

Gilly: This giant, old ant... Her death seems recent, but her presence here...
Gilly: Was it her? Could it be? The strength that sustained these caves? If so, what will happen now?
Hornet: They will wither and fade... And you may sadly know it was my needle that brought her end.

[near jasper]

How fast and or massive is bell eater to react to hornet calling it in every bell station in pharloom

[keen narwhal]

im back brothers i do apologise im mad busy

[near jasper]

Hi

[keen narwhal]

hola Tara

[dire lynx]

game logic, in verse there would be travel time. same for stag

[plain ruin]

Different kind of death, a transitory death

Kinda like an ice age

a slumber

[near jasper]

Bell eater is at least a cogwork core long imo

[keen narwhal]

ok topic?

[marble oasis]

Tarot fans trying to explain how the “Murder via crowbar to the back of the head” card is actually a good sign

[keen narwhal]

guysssssss im in the junk pittttttttt inHL

HKKKKKKKKKKKKK

omg

nooooo i need a dumb key

[twilit storm]

You got this

[keen narwhal]

thank you sherma

[twilit storm]

Gotchu

[finite wind]

Tarot cards? You mean the cards based on balatro's tarot cards right?

[plain ruin]

This fucking broke me lol

[keen narwhal]

guys if the skarr were over taken by the citadel what would it look like?

like karmelita didnt exist or something

[near jasper]

Yes

[near jasper]

Red slab flies

[keen narwhal]

interesting

so another prison basically

[foggy stratus]

Imo maybe something like a highly trained slave army.

Using their warrior nature to conquer more.

[keen narwhal]

oh maybe like assasin slaves or knights that go first in war and are meant to die

[foggy stratus]

Like why build a second prison when the one you already have works just fin

[keen narwhal]

i can see something

[marble oasis]

Saiyans under Freeza rule

[keen narwhal]

yeah

[foggy stratus]

Death Korps of Krieg type shit ig.

[keen narwhal]

that would go crazy

bro and instead of the guards in the kingdom they can use the ants

i dont think they would care about the ants

[foggy stratus]

It might also be possible that the Skarrs end up revolting against the Citadel after a while.

[keen narwhal]

omg where in the world is the dung defender

[keen narwhal]

yes

[foggy stratus]

Eastern Royal Waterways.

[keen narwhal]

thank you

i think if they revolt it would be to help seal away GMS

and what would the land of skarr look like then

would it become one big mining operation?

that makes most sense

its just another part of the lava area

also another question is the dung defender near the junk pit?

[foggy stratus]

No.

[keen narwhal]

dang it

[foggy stratus]

He's near all the feces.

[keen narwhal]

idk where the feces is i only see mushrooms

[marble oasis]

Other way

[keen narwhal]

oh i thought east was right

wait is it below the junk pit?

or on the opposite side of the map?

[foggy stratus]

You're on the wrong side.

[keen narwhal]

dang so opposite side

[marble oasis]

It is

[keen narwhal]

wait im so confused is it on the left of the map or the right????????????/

[marble oasis]

The east

[keen narwhal]

so its below the junk pit?

[nocturne timber]

guys i just realised this today and idk if its common knowledge or not. the "dies ire" motif is probably the song used to put gms to sleep.

the exact song the weavers played for grandmother silk is probably the one in the main menu, it IS called "silksong" after all. i think this because we hear it all throughout pharloom, and yes it can symbolise death but there could also be an in universe reason we hear it. it is the song that was being played by the citadel!!!

its also SO important to gms that basically her entire song is just the dies ire, or the silksong. although im not saying that it doesnt represent death, i think it has a bit of a double meaning. The dies ire in silksong symbolises / is death AND the song that kept grandmother silk in a slumber.

also, if we look at the old scrapped bad ending, the bells seemed to have weakend gms somehow, AND THE BELLS PLAY THE DIES IRE / SIKLKSONG, so obviously if the song that put gms to sleep in the first place was being rung throughout the kingdom, she was gonna get weaker.

is this common knowledge 😨

[keen narwhal]

isnt that the motif acroos the ost?

[nocturne timber]

yes

[keen narwhal]

no

[nocturne timber]

the one that goes like dun dun dun dun

that one

[keen narwhal]

ah

[keen narwhal]

well no if it was i would know

but it makes sense

we can hear the song the entire game

its probably so loud

but kinda low frequency

broooooooo where is that dum beetle

[nocturne timber]

ykwim tho

like THE motif

[keen narwhal]

yep

[keen narwhal]

yesssss its makes sense

[nocturne timber]

🥹

[keen narwhal]

broooooooooo where is the dung defender is he above the junk pit?????????????????????

im going insaneeeeeeeeeeee

[nocturne timber]

nah hes to the right

of royal waterways

[keen narwhal]

to the right of the junk pit?

[keen narwhal]

i knooooooooooooow

whereeeee though

[nocturne timber]

the top right i think

[keen narwhal]

above the junkpit below the junk pit????????????/

[nocturne timber]

ot near the junk pit

not*

the opposite side

of waterways

[keen narwhal]

ok thank you

[nocturne timber]

np

[keen narwhal]

im so confused

thank you

[nocturne timber]

lol its alr

[near jasper]

Wait ok so

The music things on the architect melody puzzle are the same ones on the cogwork core background right

Do they start turning after you do the architect melody

[keen narwhal]

you mean they are solved when you do the melody?

or fall into the floor?

idk about spinning

[near jasper]

Yeah theyre the same things we see in the background for the rest of the core right?

[keen narwhal]

idk

we must ask the proffesionals

[near jasper]

It would be a really cool detail if they started out stopped and started spinning after you do the melody puzzle

[keen narwhal]

that would go crazy

i have found the one who defends dung

omg im so dumb i thought right was left

he sounds like a schizophrenic

should i walk in?

bro he drowned me in poop

[marble oasis]

Do you have a picture

[near jasper]

These guys

[marble oasis]

Is that the least blur possible?

I want to know is if they have the same markings

It doesn’t look like it

[solid lance]

wrong channel nvm

[near jasper]

Its whats on the wiki

[marble oasis]

i see

[covert night]

lore

[low oracle]

The least blur possible is no blur at all, example being the Karmelita arena. Though an option to set the blur would be nice, sometimes it's necessary for the perspective to make sense (e.g. Pale King statue in Queens Gardens).

[frank dove]

This might be cool in some rooms like choral chambers

When you see the open citadel in the background

[low oracle]

It would definitely be cool, though for the Karm arena it could easily be distracting. Remember, they also move.

Either way it would be nice since I can't mod and like taking screenshots for backgrounds.

[marble oasis]

So what does the core look like like this

[low oracle]

Idk, I didn't take this screenshot. As I said, I can't mod.

[lyric widget]

not sure if this link works but I took a screenshot without blur https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/479341882489700362/1486369731421405315/Hollow_Knight_Silksong_nKHvUXdGI1.png?ex=69c5412f&is=69c3efaf&hm=2c3eee250af03840f505c89281f6e597e6112023c8456bd21a7adf9ad187a768&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1920&height=1080

another one here https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/479341882489700362/1486369730695663760/image.png?ex=69c5412f&is=69c3efaf&hm=7cee258c23c3ba26529e616806cb3c71ec53282c8fa97f991239d5d4bfefc0e4&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1920&height=1080

[near jasper]

Doesnt like any writing or song we see in other places

[fresh badger]

It seems like just that swirly motif common in the citadel

[frosty gate]

What is this topic and what is that picture?

The Swirly patterns are cool

[near jasper]

Cogwork core background thingies

The spinning cilinders

[twin dragon]

Impressive for a chimp to human standarts

And even then, the slabflies are very intellectually similar to her

[edgy nebula]

she says she doesnt feel pity for the child slaves ✌️

[finite wind]

Omg not this topic again

Why is this guy the only person here using their brain

[edgy nebula]

she isnt calling out the order, she personally mocks their species and wants them all dead

[finite wind]

She literally uses the word order btw

[edgy nebula]

only time she mentions any sort of order is with the broodmother, which is after she killed her and is just another vent entry where she states she wants the slaves to die

shes just racist trying to defend it is a bad look

[finite wind]

"she isn't calling out the order"

Literally hornet "I want this order to end"

[finite wind]

Ok bud watch me care how do I look to discord silksong fans over some stupid discourse you took personal 💀

This can't be real

[edgy nebula]

she calls the order distasteful and wants it to end out of malice and hatred for the species, she isnt calling out anything, its an excuse for her racism

[edgy nebula]

didnt mean to try and get personal, mb

[edgy nebula]

regardless of how heated debates can get last thing i wanna do is be genuinely mean to someone

[finite wind]

All good DW

[near jasper]

What do you think is written on Phantom's organ

[candid linden]

idk if i like the void making a suprise appearance at the end of act 2 or if I wish it was talked about before

[near jasper]

Wait

How does hornet read pharlooms tablets

[edgy nebula]

she knows how to read

[near jasper]

They're a full different language from weavers and hallownest

Ig just gameplay since verdanian and karak are also different languages

Also aint it a bit weird stiltkin also speak pilgrim/choir common

[austere crest]

literally what she does btw

[covert night]

she says she can speak many languages

i don't remember where she says that tho

[near jasper]

I think mottled skarr first meeting

Its weird we never see skarrs' writing

[near jasper]

They should cancel sea of sorrow to add that

[covert night]

she should've taken skarr language lesson from karmelita before killing her smh

they are not programmed to serve the order, they are raised to serve the order. if the order didn't exist the flies would live a different life like normal bugs. it's not the species that is evil, the way they are raised is. what you are saying doesn't justify hornet calling for eugenics. those entries are just silly and out of place

[floral quiver]

It's very much, if you play as seemingly kinda intended where Hornet gets captured and locked up in the Slab, a particularly severe trauma reaction.

It is out of character and out of place, intentionally so. Not only did they drain her strength again, and caged her again, but they cravenly insulted and disrespected the literal last remnants of her beloved mothers, the cloak first spun by her own claw at her Honored Mother's own feet and the blade she has carried since she could truly hold one, designed specifically for her and forged in her Mother's own swordworks such that it would last till she dies.

One can easily see Hornet nearly apoplectic, driven for this one instance by pure spite carving her hate into some castoff shell as she hunts these wastes of existence in the shape of bugs, her fury fueling her through the bitter cold until she finally snaps the louts neck, reclaims her Mother's honor, and brings ruin upon them, all the while making barely coherent justifications as to why.

[sinful nimbus]

She writes this if she isn't locked up btw

And doesn't write the same thing about say the choir

[spark valve]

It’s not intentional and if it was intentional that hornet did a little eugenics on the side just for fun that would uh be a whole lot worse

[near jasper]

Lowkey how did people even find out you could get captured

How do you lose to a single fly

[floral quiver]

I know. I'm talking about narrative intent here. Like, getting captured effectively out of nowhere is a pretty common first experience of the Slab, with the Journal entries intentionally reflecting this thrilling and grim moment as a small Hornet character piece.

And the Choir didn't insult and desecrate all that she has of two of her beloved mothers, treating them like they were toys rather than the eons old, meticulously maintained last connections to her kin.

[floral quiver]

You dont expect the cage to instantly knock you out.

[near jasper]

I didnt even see that Attack on my playthrough

[floral quiver]

And?

[sinful nimbus]

What?

Hornet's cloak has nothing to do with her mother

Neither does her needle really since Vespa was more of a mentor but also the choir bugs tried taking that too

And like Tammo said making Hornet cartoonishly evil isn't exactly compelling writing and the fact that she advocates for genocide and is generally not that great a person is never addressed or resolved at all

[floral quiver]

Vespa is very much a mother to Hornet. It's why she's in the Red Memory.

It's an important part of her character revealed in the late game.

[near jasper]

why did the flies even strip her down

Grindle doesnt get anything taken from him

[sinful nimbus]

wym

Red Memory showcases Vespa training Hornet and giving advice for the future there's not an implication of motherly attachment

That was the wish, of my mother, of my mentor, and of you...
Hornet even outright calls Vespa her mentor

[floral quiver]

Grindle isn't a centuries old Weaverkin that even with no weapons or gear still sneaks amd hunts her way through a massive prison until she can claim her gear.

Grindle isn't a threat that needs to be weakened at all costs.

[frosty gate]

Doesn't Hornet have a dialogue with Shakra talking about a relationship with a Mentor very akin to hers, which is heavily implied to be similar to a mother daugther relationship?

I don't know what's being discussed, I just know that Dialogue

[floral quiver]

Yes.

Anyone who missed the mother daughter thing wasnt paying enough attention to the thematics of the story

[near jasper]

To our knowledge /j

[sinful nimbus]

Shakra: Poshanka, Hornet Wielding Needle. For that is your name, is it not? I have heard it spoken in this land with reverence. I had hoped you would accept my summons. In these moments one is good, but two is best.

Hornet: I would not deny the wish, Shakra. A sombre ceremony seemed likely at this trail's end, and I am sadly proved correct. This then is your master?

Shakra: The fiercest of my tribe, here she lies. I called her master, true, but she was mother just as much, more by far than the bug who bore me.

Hornet: Among the many marvels of this kingdom, she found a fine place to meet her end.

Shakra: Ended by age... My tribe would call that shame, but I see only strength unbeaten.
Even as her shell betrayed her, she walked this kingdom's breadth. It was her trail followed that allowed me to share witness to its dignity.
Hornet Wielding Needle, you too have journeyed these many paths, as my master before us. Join me now for her song-sending.
It is time for her soul to walk beyond her shell...

Hornet doesn't really say anything like that

[floral quiver]

No they didnt. When she was being taken to the Citadel the first time, her blade was right at her side lashed to the cage. Its why it falls into the hole with her in the beginning. They didnt take it and play with it, it was going with her to the Citadel.

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like she could grab it or anything

And are we saying that Hornet is so attached to her needle that she becomes a raging nazi without it

[frosty gate]

True, ther'es also this one tho. I feel like there was supposed to be a motherly implication there that just didn't get put

That was a battle well-fought, Child Wielding Needle. Your master would be proud of you.

Hornet: The one who trained me long ago... I never called her master. Whether she would be proud of what has become of me, I cannot say.

[sinful nimbus]

Like at the end of the day the details they put make Hornet like

not a good person

I don't think that's intentional

[frosty gate]

It's very much not intentional yeah

[near jasper]

Its to not spoil the vespa fight in "dlc 4 the godseeker one but better"

[frosty gate]

Wait the argument was that the Slab section where you don't have your stuff, Hornet is mad because she didn't have her needle and its personal for her?

[floral quiver]

No. I'm saying she's so attached to the last remnants of her beloved mothers that not only taking them, but insulting them and treating them as little more than toys drives her to fury. Because they're her last connections to two people she loved enough that a major element of the True ending path is a long winded memory that expounds on Hornet's feelings on them.

[frosty gate]

I mean

I wouldn't go to deep, if you stripped me naked and took my phone and my keys I would be really pissed off to like

I think everything aside "Fucking flies humilliated me and they deserve to be purged" is just an addon you can put, but not necesarily real

[floral quiver]

You arent getting it and I'm confounded.

Like. Okay. Is there anything that connects you to someone you love, enough that it's something you'd break out into tears over if it was lost or broken?

[near jasper]

Why do flies explode when they're hurt as Babies

[sinful nimbus]

Me when a minority steals my wallet containing a photo of my parents so I turn my diary into mein kampf

[floral quiver]

... you'd burst into tears if the photo in your wallet burned?

[sinful nimbus]

what

Man this is 4 entries its not a big character moment or anything

Its like if Superman turned racist for 4 panels and then the comic carried on as normal

Never mentioned or addressed again

It seems pretty clear from the fact that this is still written if you don't get captured that this wasn't some narrative masterpiece of character witing but instead just Team Cherry cracking some jokes about how the flies are kinda gross and goofy

[near jasper]

Team cherry's finger slipped

[floral quiver]

It is when the whole narrative and Hornet's arc is taken into consideration.

Playing the game and experiencing the story expounds on why Hornet would react out of character in that situation

[sinful nimbus]

The idea that she has an attachment to her cloak or needle is completely baseless

Its also bad writing

[floral quiver]

Why?

[sinful nimbus]

Is the only way to show that she's attached to those objects for her to become monstrously evil

[floral quiver]

No.

It is however the route chosen and very obviously connected to the "Prison Escape" mini-arc and Hornet's wider character if played properly.

Like. This is storytelling. There's a narrative througline here that you're all just ignoring for some reason and I dont know why.

[sinful nimbus]

I'm ignoring it because its bad writing

[frosty gate]

Look, the fact that I would be very pissed about it doesn't mean I would be writing racist entries on a journal

[sinful nimbus]

It makes Hornet unlikeable its not an at all appropriate way to handle the topic of racism and its got half the fandom to write eugenics apologia for like 6 months

[frosty gate]

Speaking about how they should all die

And then the encounter with

What was its name

[sinful nimbus]

I can only give Team Cherry the benefit of the doubt by chalking it up to some dumb mistake instead of them being bad writers

[frosty gate]

The little Broodling

Oh spot on, it was Broodling

She acts all normal towards the Broodling, doesn't kill it, doesn't curse it, doesn't act the way she's acting in the journals

Which is weird because you can't be both

Closeted Racist Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

She's also pretty normal when talking to Old Penitent about it

[near jasper]

Why do baby flies explode when hurt that seems like a weird thing for babies Born 10 seconds ago to do

[frosty gate]

Despite Old P straight up saying "Oh yeah they're slaves"

[sinful nimbus]

The slab is an interesting little mini version of Silksong's themes of systemic injustice and cycles of oppression which is reflected in that dialogue but we also have Hornet becoming a fascist writing about how disgusting the flies are and then you beat them up with heroic action music in the background before leaving

Its not a "look how awful Hornet is being she's at a low point" its a "haha goofy flies" joke

[frosty gate]

Which isn't good writing!

[sinful nimbus]

Which is why its never resolved, she doesn't ever stop being racist

She wasn't supposed to be racist

[frosty gate]

And I wouldn't mind this if I didn't also have the little bit of information that Flies are indeed just slaves

If just told me Flies are horrible gruesome creatures, then sure, what the hell

[sinful nimbus]

The entry where Hornet talks about how scabflies are children born into slavery and says she doesn't feel bad for them

[frosty gate]

But you say they're actually slaves and they're nothing but a victim of systemic oppresion and that paints Hornet in a bad light

[near jasper]

My boy hunter never wrote eugenics in his journal bring him back john pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Hunter was kinda evil too but he got away with it by virtue of not being portrayed as a good guy (let alone the good guy main character)

[floral quiver]

... no shit.

It's a reaction to trauma.
It's blind fury that she wouldn't do to others because they didnt do what the flies did.

It's a moral low point but also a thrilling prison escape scene, it can be both!

It's out of character in universe!

[frosty gate]

And he could've, he had a very easy Eat the Rich joke right fucking there

[sinful nimbus]

God Tamer entry talks about him killing his pet for fun

[sinful nimbus]

I'm saying Team Cherry didn't intend for her to be racist

Because duh

4 entries never addressed again and its bad writing

Randomly assuming she's super attached to her cloak and needle doesn't change that

[frosty gate]

Exactly, Hunter is just a sociopath, a cool one? Yeah, but still what the fuck

[frosty gate]

I didn't remember this one LMAO

[frosty gate]

Which they could've considering how the entry for the Vaultborns in Whispering Vaults changes depending on when you got it

Meanwhile the fly entries are there whether you get caged or not

[near jasper]

Reminder hornet just gave a ripped out eyeball to songclave when they asked someone to check what was going in the slab with some weird noises

[sinful nimbus]

If they try to bargain for their life, just ignore them. They have nothing to offer.
🥶

I do like how Hunter knows he doesn't have the answers to a lot of things though

[frosty gate]

Vaultborns are actually the only enemy to have two entries

[sinful nimbus]

lowk a chill guy

obligatory Hunter was a stoner

Its leaves are dry and bland. The bud is unpleasantly sour, but oh! The venom in those balls it spits. Exquisite! If you have the time to spare, try drinking some and enjoy the effects.

[frosty gate]

I love his entry for the Uomas

*"The spirit of a dead ancestor? The brain of a larger creature, allowed to drift free? An egg searching for a safe place to spawn? I have no idea what this is." *

Unironically my favorite entry in both games

[sinful nimbus]

I mean he was probably high Fog Canyon is right next to the gulka part of Greenpath

Environmental storytelling

[frosty gate]

Cold as fuck

[sinful nimbus]

This hopping thief's belly is full of the blood it has stolen from other beasts. If you hold it above a fire, the belly will grow and grow until it explodes in a steaming shower of fluids.
hopper gushers

what compelled team cherry to write this

[near jasper]

Caretaker: so you went to the slab and stopped who was torturing that poor bug?
Hornet holding suspiciously fly like eyeball: yeah totally : )

[sinful nimbus]

I wonder how my own innards taste... would it be a heinous thing to try and drink some?

[frosty gate]

He is absolutely insane and I love him for it

He would get along with the Huntress

If they don't kill each other within 5 minutes of meeting

Because of Hunter, honestly. Huntress is very open to dialogue and can recognize when a fight is just too much

Hunter would see her and say "She can probably kill me, but I could probably kill her, let see what happens first"

[covert night]

maybe they could've made the entries dynamic

like the whispering vaults enemies

[near jasper]

I was hoping there would be more like that instead of Just the vault middle schooler

[graceful smelt]

Groal is bell beast theory

[near jasper]

Sure why not man

[covert night]

slab enemies was probably the best place to use this honestly

[graceful smelt]

I mean it’s obvious

[near jasper]

Fun fact: silkeater was originally a slur for weavers

[graceful smelt]

wha

[floral quiver]

... she's had them for literal eons and they connect her to two people she loved enough to have a big memory about in the climactic True Ending route.

There's a thematic reason the needle is Hivesteel and she is shown wearing her red cloak as a child.

It's Hivesteel so that, when it's finally revealed after lots of work, one makes the connection between Hornet, the Hive, and ultimately Hive-Queen Vespa. That it's a specially designed weapon that lasts eons just helps accentuate how important it was.

Her cloak connects her to the Weavers of Deepnest and ultimately her mother. Note that her mother, unlike how we see her in Hollow Knight, also wears deep red, signifying a connection between the two. Even when she can't remember her mother's face, she vividly remembers she wore red.

Like, no it's not explicitly called out in dialogue or some little lore snippet but that would be cludgy, bad writing that expects the player to need it directly spelled out to them.

[near jasper]

Why does bell eater speak with we in the needolin dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

"they're both red" 😭

Her cloak wasn't made in front of her mother nor did her mother order it or anything

This is a very tenuous connection

[graceful smelt]

“Stfu you silkeater.”

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway idk what to tell you really its just not good writing to make Hornet a bad person while still portraying her as the hero

[covert night]

you have good points but it doesn't change the fact that entries stay exactly the same no matter you triggered the escape sequence or not

[floral quiver]

Thats how thematic connections work!

They're both red to build a connection in the player's mind. Just like Hornet wearing Pale Court white in the White Lady part.

[blissful harbor]

it’s the weaver racism kicking in

[floral quiver]

And that's a minor oversight given the clear narrative throughline of the prison escape sequence when related to the rest of the story and Hornet's arc as a character.

[sinful nimbus]

what arc

She's static

She's racist and then she's racist and she's still racist at the end of the game

Notably the game never challenges her racist claims

And plays heroic music when she kills the flies

The fact that half the fandom thinks she's in the right is a testament to the fact that it wasn't handled tastefully imo

[near jasper]

"when them flies get you in pharloom beat their ass up they suck"-cindril before leaving to 359 km away from hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

And like to clarify I get the music is there to accentuate an exciting moment but overall its supposed to be one big "Hornet sticking it to her cruel captors" and unless you find Old Penitent (unlikely) you aren't going to really walk away from the slab understanding any of its commentary

[floral quiver]

The rest of her arc adds context that isn't there during the escape.

And it expects you to be able to realize her out of characterness and later make the connection with the Red Memory and realize "Oh that's why she was out of character during the prison escape! Deep sentiment for two of the women that raised her!"

[sinful nimbus]

No one walked out of red memory thinking that chap

[near jasper]

Cant you not find old penitent without the needle

?

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think any context really makes this acceptable

[floral quiver]

Then no one is narratively illiterate and can't make thematic connections if it bit them in their nethers.

[floral quiver]

It's not?

Its a bad thing.

[spark valve]

some people just aren't that eager to try to come up with bullshit to rationalize what is obviously unintended genocidal rhetoric from a character meant to be the good guy

[floral quiver]

It's a flaw

[spark valve]

it's dogshit writing not a character flaw

it would be worse if it was intentional

but it clearly isn't

silksong fan try not to be evil challenge

[floral quiver]

Oh fuck off.

Talking like I think she's justified.

[floral quiver]

Them being an oppressed people forced into service and living a life of abject, entirely sympathetic misery, only continuing the cycle of abuse unending thanks to both the Citadel and the Haunting is obvious from the visuals and descriptions of both prisoners and jailors.

The Old Penetint just spells it out directly.

[edgy nebula]

the slab is just handled entirely tastelessly with hornet, if she were handled differently and actually in character it wouldve been one of the best moments in the game and a proper showing of how cruel the citadel is, with even their slaves brainwashed into believing that the citadel is still pure

nothing indicates hornet’s hatred of the flies is a flaw, her views are never challenged, infact theyre reinforced with the victorious music like starpengu said before, and hornet still being seen as a heroic figure after the fact

as it stands the slab is inarguably hornet’s worst moment ever, entirely out of character, handled terribly, and it brings down the game hard

[near jasper]

Hornet uses the wish from songclave as an excuse to kill broodmother

Every other grand hunt wish asks her to kill something and wailing mother is just complaining about noises

Except gurr ig but he did litterally plan out the whole thing to fight hornet to death

[floral quiver]

Except the knowledge that they're a born and bred slave race who the player is supposed to sympathize with in contrast to Hornet's opinion.

Hornet's opinion is called out as flawed by the rest of the narrative of the Slab.

And it's a flaw that isn't corrected.

Hornet is a generally upstanding and heroic character who has an instinct to help people. She's also a character that has a flawed opinion on flies, either because she was imprisoned by them in a worse way than she'd been contained before, or she's bigoted depending on how a player first gets to them.

[twin dragon]

A npc that reminded hornet that they're slaves wouldve gone a long way

say it with me folks!

a line of dialogue would've gone a long way 4 or 5

[floral quiver]

There is one

[twin dragon]

i dont remember

[twin dragon]

who

old peni?

[floral quiver]

Mhm

[near jasper]

Whoever confused the judge proclaim innocent behavior as a last judge behavior and posted that in a video has probably spread the most misinformation in the entire fandom rn

[twin dragon]

ye that npcs is hidden and doesnt really fierecely oppose hornet's blatant hatred

[near jasper]

5

[floral quiver]

Yeah, thats regular judge cut material.

[twin dragon]

you actually remember me saying it?

[near jasper]

Yeah

[floral quiver]

?

[twin dragon]

neat

[near jasper]

I've been here for every single one lmao

[twin dragon]

even neater

[plain gazelle]

hornet's a demigod princess whose whole arc involves learning to give a shit about bugs who are beneath her. the default ending is that she obtains godhood and immediately enslaves the entire kingdom. idk why we're expecting her to not be racist

[twin dragon]

isn't the entire point about judges the fact that they're kinda flawed and baseless

[floral quiver]

No?

[twin dragon]

like they have no way of knowing how a pilgrim could've sinned

[floral quiver]

Theyre harsh

[near jasper]

I mean they do somehow

[twin dragon]

they take their judgement up to their intrepretation

[near jasper]

Sherma go through

[floral quiver]

No?

[twin dragon]

Luck

idfk

singing is too good

[floral quiver]

He did not kill

[twin dragon]

Yes, they have no way of knowing

[floral quiver]

He is not armed

[twin dragon]

and how do judges know that?

are judges omnipresent?

[floral quiver]

He has no rosaries

[near jasper]

And most sins are removed or whatever the word was on death so they dont have to kill the haunted

[twin dragon]

that's honestly worse i think

[near jasper]

Idk citadel shit man

[twin dragon]

rosaries was the prayer bead of the citadel after all

having some would probably give pilgrims an easier time passing

[near jasper]

I dont they want you to have money going into the underworks

[floral quiver]

They're Judges of a sacred pilgrimage in a world where gods and magic literally exist. Even if the Choral faith is a lie them being able to feel out sin isnt so out there

[floral quiver]

Ease is against liturgy

Ease is sin

Struggle is holiness and glory

[twin dragon]

With how corrupt the citadel is i wouldn't be surprised if the rosaries indicated status

i mean they do

But outside of it, however

some pilgrims do try to gather rosaries

there's a reason for that

[twin dragon]

Except there's no mention of any magic power they could have to prove someone innocent

[near jasper]

But they Just kinda know

Somehow

[twin dragon]

Do they?

or they just... decide it themselves

[near jasper]

The proclaim innocent behavior

[floral quiver]

Note that the Underworks is relatively new in relation to the Choir as a whole. The Judges are old. They judge based on criteria from when the Citadel was simple stone and the path wasnt as grouling

[twin dragon]

Yeah it doesn't mean necessarily it is true

[twin dragon]

Well do we know judges even existed back then=?

they seem to be yk, bred

they are a caste of bugs

castes probably weren't a big thing before

[floral quiver]

Probably

We dont know

[near jasper]

I mean last judge is probably that age

[twin dragon]

We can speculate with what's given

[floral quiver]

And I am

[twin dragon]

mind you, conductors have been ruling for centuries i think

[floral quiver]

Longer

[twin dragon]

like it's been a shit ton of time

generations and generations of bugs were born and died

[near jasper]

Shes 2 houses tall i can see her being centuries old

[twin dragon]

Yeah but not that old

[foggy fractal]

when are we getting first judge

😔

[twin dragon]

to the point of yk

[near jasper]

Sos

[twin dragon]

not being useful

[foggy fractal]

that early? damn

[twin dragon]

Lost judge is a thing apparently

[floral quiver]

Long enough for twelve Architects to be built and the mountain of stone that was the Citadel to be turned into a music box the size of a mountain

[twin dragon]

It wouldn't have served much purpose before

and yk, as i said before, she's part of a specific caste

that's specifically bred for a single purpose

this is some conductor shit you see

[near jasper]

Weavers probably didnt want mute people in the citadel either

[twin dragon]

weavers didn't care about sin, all they needed is productivity and in part control

[floral quiver]

Their built religion cared about sin.

[near jasper]

Sin in pharloom is being unproductive to the citadel

[twin dragon]

It wasn't as extreme as conductor rule i think

[floral quiver]

So much so that even Conductors are bound to it.

[twin dragon]

Ironically the biggest sinners

[edgy nebula]

Hornet is the main character of the game, youre inclined to agree and believe her because shes supposed to be the manifestation of the player

hornets opinion is not called out and is not seen as a flaw in the game despite how wrong it is, this is an objective fact, she never faces any repercussion for her actions

hornets views on the flies are flawed yes, but theyre out of character and tasteless, thats what makes them bad

[floral quiver]

And the Judges sin criteria is simple and easy. No killing, no weapons, no undo wealth.

Easy to learn easy to remember and in the past easy to practice

[twin dragon]

Not all main characters have to be manifestations of the player,

[edgy nebula]

hornet can be angry but to the level she is ingame is too far to the point it harms her character

[near jasper]

Also the squirm arent really bred, they Just put a sign and clothes there and it just worked somehow

[twin dragon]

Do we know their criteria?

i mean i dont think so

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe she's supposed to be unlikeable

[near jasper]

No killing

No bellveins

[foggy fractal]

😔 yeah we should cancel Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Y'know Hornet is supposed to be this racist gal who hates nature and kills old ladies for fun

[twin dragon]

Only squirms are judges

like you deadass cant tell me this isnt a caste

[near jasper]

Yes

[edgy nebula]

yeah, i meant it in the way that as we play her and have a connection to her character we dont want to see her as doing bad things

[foggy fractal]

hey the killing old ladies thing I get y'know

fun sport

[edgy nebula]

certainly doesnt help that she does objectively out of character bad things

[sinful nimbus]

We've all ripped out the heart of some old grandma at one point in our lives

[foggy fractal]

#THATSMYHORNET

[sinful nimbus]

It is a difficult thing to explain simply

[foggy fractal]

🙂‍↕️

[twin dragon]

Karmelita's killing is somewhat defensible imo

[sinful nimbus]

And its kinda interesting characterization when you take into account red memory

[twin dragon]

but not the slab

[sinful nimbus]

Karmelita wears red like Herrah and is considered a mother like Herrah

She reminds Hornet of the mother she lost

[near jasper]

Most 4th heart killings are kind of justifiable

[sinful nimbus]

And she acts out of character intentionally by murdering Karmelita and all of Far Fields in cold blood

[edgy nebula]

cut plot point where tc gave hornet mom AND dad issues

[foggy fractal]

if only

[twin dragon]

She restarts the ecosystem that's bound to fail

Plus, hornet has adhd

[sinful nimbus]

🥀

[foggy fractal]

is this how the ecosystem is gonna look? (wilted)

[twin dragon]

Yeah that's what she does, aside from giving a long worn down warrior one last dance

[twin dragon]

It's not gonna be

[sinful nimbus]

She's not restarting it something entirely new will take its place

[near jasper]

New emote idea?

[sinful nimbus]

I also don't know what you mean by bound to fail

Not that that would make it ethical anyway

[near jasper]

Karmelitta is dying

[twin dragon]

Karmelita's already worn down

she's the bearer of the old heart

she didn't get to pass it on

[foggy fractal]

dw guys I'm here I will help water the plants

[near jasper]

Ant queens need workers to care for them

[edgy nebula]

bro is gilly

[twin dragon]

Karmelita also partly asked for that fight

[near jasper]

Karmelitta's workers are hunting husks

She's gonna die

[floral quiver]

Her being on death's bed is a neat twist.

[sinful nimbus]

Old Hearts sustain their ecosystems but its not like Karmelita dying would suddenly destroy Far Fields there have been other bearers of the hearts in the past but oh gosh gilly darn guess who removed the old heart from the ecosystem so she could plop it right down on her desk

[twin dragon]

moss druid boss fight

[foggy fractal]

hey this is slander doesn't hornet put it on a shelf?

smh

[floral quiver]

You see the statue and think "Oh this will be cool!" Then she's old and dying.

Then you enter her memory and see for the last time, the might and glory of the last Queen of the Skarr

[twin dragon]

suddently? not quite no, but the fact that she's bound to basically die and take the entire ecosystem with her could imply that hornet's cleaning the slate

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think she would take the entire ecosystem with her

[near jasper]

I feel like "We can sense her still... just." From the snail shamans imolies shes not doing good

[twin dragon]

No old heart inheritors

[spark valve]

hearts are the last inheritors of power, under ordinary circumstances when they die that power can be inherited by somebody else

[twin dragon]

Under ordinary circumstances...

[sinful nimbus]

But also killing everything just because it would happen anyway is kinda 🥴

[twin dragon]

hmmm

[spark valve]

instead of letting that happen hornet takes the power

[twin dragon]

i wonder

the circumstances are indeed very ordinary

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans can't read

[edgy nebula]

she could be cloaking her power somehow like how white lady was to the godseekers

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah they kinda are

[twin dragon]

Most of the skarr are either getting hunted down or tied to gms

[near jasper]

I just assumed she was fucked

[twin dragon]

It could've been gilly..

maybe

i guess

[sinful nimbus]

GMS isn't that big of an issue

[twin dragon]

[sinful nimbus]

In the near future where Hornet ideally kills her like in true ending

Who tf is hunting them down

[edgy nebula]

top 10 girlboss devotion or destruction moments

[sinful nimbus]

Other than Hornet ofc

[near jasper]

Gurr

[spark valve]

hornet is projecting hard with that line

[sinful nimbus]

Gurr is my #1 pick for next old heart on god

[foggy fractal]

do we think we'll get to see past heart bearers in a dlc in the future

[foggy fractal]

holy tuff

[near jasper]

Crawfather isnt an old heart only because craws kinda function

[edgy nebula]

hornet’s descendant returns to pharloom and fights the trapmaster, master of the grasses

[foggy fractal]

gurr spawns those tall grass in that one far fields room

and sneak attacks us

🤔

[edgy nebula]

i wish beastmaster wasnt scrapped he wouldve been so cool

[twin dragon]

Gurr wasn't gonna do shit

man was ready to die for the love of the game

[near jasper]

Do you think it gives a headache if you swap crest too much too quicly

[edgy nebula]

probably messes with your head swapping between the lives of so many past bugs

[near jasper]

I mean hornet did bind an entire chorus at once

[floral quiver]

GMS is a huge issue?

One of the reasons that Karmelita is in the state she is is thanks to her children hearing the Haunting and thinking it's Karmelita's song.

Karmelita is old, but Silk's Haunting is making that much worse by keeping her children from hearing her.

[twin dragon]

There's no guarantee that happens ideally, and devastation has already been brought

the void's also there to finish off whoever's left

[sinful nimbus]

OK this is specifically in the context of not destroying far fields

"Hornet is fine to kill far fields because GMS might kill it anyway" despite the fact that Hornet is going to attempt to kill GMS is stupid

[floral quiver]

Karmelita is Queen and Mother. Without her the Skarr will die out thanks to non being hatched

[twin dragon]

I didn't really say or mean that

[sinful nimbus]

Its stupid if she couldn't kill GMS too because killing ecosystems is bad but

like what are you saying dawg

[twin dragon]

gms was a core issue but it's much worse in act 3 as theres other factors

[sinful nimbus]

This assumes that the heart has to be an ant (why) and that there isn't going to be a new queen (why?)

[sinful nimbus]

maybe scroll up

[twin dragon]

Ye there's the void aswell

[sinful nimbus]

which also isn't an issue after true ending

[twin dragon]

I might've worded that poorly

[twin dragon]

But it does kill off bugs

unlike the haunting

Didn't mean to encapsulate gms as the only issue

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah far fields has some causalities I don't see how that's relevant

[twin dragon]

but the circumstances are less than optimal

[twin dragon]

"some causalities" while far fields in part collapsed and most haunted bugs are also black threaded

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah what's this got to do with Hornet killing Far Fields for no reason

[twin dragon]

far fields' already dead

[sinful nimbus]

No its not

[near jasper]

Not really

[sinful nimbus]

I mean you can go play the game there's still life there in Act 3 and the entire point of beating the game is to save Pharloom

The void hasn't killed everything

And to reiterate this is specifically getting Karmelita as the 4th heart

[twin dragon]

ye ik

[sinful nimbus]

If its used for the red memory spell its for the greater good

[twin dragon]

im just

[near jasper]

Actually how is pharloom meant to deal with all the void now falling down on them

[twin dragon]

tryna find a plausible explanation for that

dont wanna call it X before diving into it

[twin dragon]

we see that it pops with the strings

when gms is dead

[near jasper]

How

[twin dragon]

idfk, it goes back

the connection is severed

[floral quiver]

... all the hearts are tragedies.

Necessary to save Pharloom entire, but in no way is taking them "fine"?

Like, the tragic necessity is what makes that part of the story compelling.

[twin dragon]

We also dont know how old hearts are inherited, maybe karm couldnt pass it in time

[sinful nimbus]

.

[sinful nimbus]

Idk why you'd assume this

[floral quiver]

Because it's narratively resonant?

[near jasper]

Except the 4th

[sinful nimbus]

How is that narratively resonant

Also that's still immoral of Hornet because killing ecosystems is bad

[twin dragon]

Karm's children stopped following her and she's kinda isolated, there, rotting away

[floral quiver]

Well yes. Not needing to get them all lets you pick one to not be a tragic necessity

[sinful nimbus]

Even if they're going to die soon anyways

[twin dragon]

maybe gilly could take it ig?

[sinful nimbus]

Did they?

[twin dragon]

old pharloom dlc needed ffs

[near jasper]

the 4th one is very slightly positive no matter who it is

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not like doubting you I just don't remember that detail

[twin dragon]

With karm's voice falling off yeah

[spark valve]

no

[twin dragon]

gms took em

[spark valve]

Strength from her. Strength for her...
Strike hard. Strike lethal...
All for the singer...

[floral quiver]

Yes! Thats why taking the heats is a tragedy!

It's a necessary but immoral act to save everything, but it must be done or everyone dies!

[sinful nimbus]

.

I don't need to reiterate it 4 times bruh its not necessary the spell was already completed

[twin dragon]

I mean they think that they follow her but they aren't sure, there's a needolin dialogue depicting how a skarr questions if they still are following her song

[near jasper]

The hardest part about justifying the 4th heart is keeping it stapled to your wall

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know what you're talking about but my guess would be that's because they're haunted

[floral quiver]

They're Haunted

[twin dragon]

I think so yeah

[floral quiver]

They're on Silk's threads

[twin dragon]

they're in some kind of trance

because of the threads

[spark valve]

they're infected but they didn't like abandon karmelita or whatever

[near jasper]

If they did she wouldnt ask the first person she saw to kill her

[floral quiver]

They did. They hear the Haunting and think its her song.

[twin dragon]

They're kinda lost, they think they didn't but they're following something else

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans can't reeeead

[twin dragon]

as the song isn't present anymore

Tammo i'm sorry that your interpretation is objectively correct mb

[floral quiver]

The reason the Mottled Skarr are outcasts is because they arent Haunted. They still hear the Song of the Queen. There's just vanishingly few of them.

[twin dragon]

ofc tammo the means justify the ends

[spark valve]

they didn't abandon her they're just infected those aren't mutually exclusive, they're still devoted to her

[twin dragon]

base of morality

[spark valve]

shadowboxing

[twin dragon]

There's no song

anymore

[spark valve]

I didn't say anything about ends justifying means

[twin dragon]

the whole reason that they got haunted was because karmelita's age got to her i think it was

can sm1 fact check this

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/panko-cat-pankocat-fatfatpankocat-pet-gif-228857265189960783

[floral quiver]

And that's a distinction that doesn't matter.

[spark valve]

those are absolutely different things

[floral quiver]

There is. The Mottled Skarr Scout still hears it.

[near jasper]

What are they even gonna give karmelitta theyre hunting husks

[twin dragon]

They're still devoted to her technically but they aren't following *her * song

[floral quiver]

Not to the queen who's lost her children to Silk

[twin dragon]

?

for real?

[floral quiver]

For death... I give death...
Our mark is no curse...
We still hear it...
Strength... shall not fade...

[spark valve]

yes those are absolutely different things lmao
willingly abandoning you and getting infected are different from her perspective one is treason one isn't

the infected skarr also think they hear the song

[floral quiver]

The Mottled Skarr Scout's needolin dialogue

[twin dragon]

I don't think this explicitely talks about how the song is still present in yk, the present

because it's not

they still know about karm and wtv she was singing before

[near jasper]

"We still hear it..." Doesnt really work when you cant hear it

[twin dragon]

The whole thing about karmelita's that her voice stopped reaching the skarrs because of her age

and she doesn't sing in game yk

[near jasper]

Maybe the mottled skarr just hear good idk

[floral quiver]

It's metaphysical.

[twin dragon]

Could be

Buut she still weakened and so did her "song"

[floral quiver]

It's not a literal song she literally sings constantly to get her kin to do things

[near jasper]

Yes

[twin dragon]

doesn't change anything

[near jasper]

Thats why theres 3 people left that hear her

[twin dragon]

the mottleds still catch her influence

like the real thing unlike the haunted skarrs that seem to be misguided

[floral quiver]

And the Mottled Skarr can still hear her which is why they arent Haunted

They are Loyal. Thus they are outcast

[spark valve]

you can spawn mottled scout after outright killing her it's not hearing her actively

[twin dragon]

Not really true as

haunted skarrs still fight for karmelita

they're just.. not actually following karmelita

[floral quiver]

They fight for Silk.

[near jasper]

Haunteds fight anything that isnt

[floral quiver]

They arent loyal.

[twin dragon]

Scroll up please

tammo provided dialogue

[floral quiver]

I know. I dont mean literally "They fight for silk like the Choir fights for Silk". I mean metaphorically.

[twin dragon]

what

[spark valve]

the choir doesn't fight for her like that either

[twin dragon]

The choir fights for wtv reason they fought before

citadel duties

[floral quiver]

Their thinking they're fighting for Karmelita doesn't matter. They fight because Silk wills it so.

[twin dragon]

gms doesnt outright control bugs

[twin dragon]

FIghting for someone and fighting because of something is different

[floral quiver]

She does.

Not directly, but everything done is in the name of stasis or Silk's freedom. Otherwise the Citadel would be silent forever.

[twin dragon]

The citadel being silent helps silk, actually

she might be gathering worship

as the 2nd silk heart might suggest

[floral quiver]

Yes. Thats why it's turned off unless necessary.

[twin dragon]

?

the bugs under silk still sing

choral chambers ost is diegetic

you cant hear the choir in act 3

[floral quiver]

Because that is what they do. That is their role.

The Haunting forces people and corpses to play out their roles. Forever. Unendingly.

[twin dragon]

Exactly

[floral quiver]

But its all under the guiding thread of Silk

[twin dragon]

Silk unites the bugs into some sort of hivemind

[floral quiver]

The Citadel hunted Weavers because Silk proclaimed it so, and her puppets acted out the play she set to motion, all without realizing it was not their idea.

[twin dragon]

I do have a hypothesis that the conductors actually ruled out that order

but i might be stretching it

a lil bit

[floral quiver]

?

Sorry, having trouble parsing that

[twin dragon]

Yes bugs can follow silk's will, that's why they attack hornet, but not always

[floral quiver]

What do you mean with "Ruled out that order"?

[twin dragon]

The conductors sent orders to find weavers to try and make things right seeing how silk's waking was imminent

It's probably nonsensical

[floral quiver]

A bit.

Not stupid or anything

[near jasper]

Can I point something out

[floral quiver]

Kinda odd

[twin dragon]

it is kinda stupid yeah

[near jasper]

Gms was actually being smart with how she (kinda) controlled the bone bottom/mosslands area

[floral quiver]

The point of the Haunting is that it is subtle. Quite literally everyone is affected by it. It's just only evident when Silk pulls the strings.

[twin dragon]

The bugs themselves dont think about it

they do what they believe

as evidenced by needolin dialogues

[floral quiver]

And thats what makes it subtle

[twin dragon]

silk's mind is poured into theirs

[floral quiver]

Yes

[twin dragon]

at least that's what pavo described

The skarrs still think they fight for karmelita

[floral quiver]

Hornet is watched by Silk's thousand eyes as she climbs

[near jasper]

Shes preventing the snails from doing anything by keeping the chapel infestated from below and the path to the boneyard cant be used either

[floral quiver]

Even friends

[near jasper]

She waits until we are far away to throw a skul tyrant at bone bottom

[twin dragon]

i dont think she does that

[near jasper]

She blocks some of mosshome with silk

[twin dragon]

the skull tyrant just happens to storm in

[floral quiver]

Nothing is a coincidence with the Haunting. Its not like the Infection

[twin dragon]

As, yk, if that were the case she would've just haunted bone bottom

and she wouldn't need to kill the pilgrims

[near jasper]

Skull tyrants moving around as much as they did was abnormal enough bone bottons was willing to pay hundreds of rosaries to get someone to deal with it

[twin dragon]

or she would've sent anything else before

[near jasper]

Or an ancient artifact that permanently increases your survivability I cant rember rn

[twin dragon]

they dont know what a mask shard is

i think it was rosaries

[floral quiver]

She has. The reason the merchant immediately Haunts is because she changed. She stopped playing her assigned role as "Bone Bottom Merchant". And that is a sin to the eyes of Silk.

[twin dragon]

no? what?

silk doesn't haunt by assigned roles

pilgrims don't change their assigned roles and yet, they're still haunted

neither did skarrs

[near jasper]

Yeah

[twin dragon]

neither did craws

[near jasper]

Or judges

[twin dragon]

Silk probably couldn't reach bone bottom

by herself

but that's also weird since

[near jasper]

We see her failing why do you think she kept trying to send her silk strands down

[twin dragon]

wtv is below it at moss grotto is also haunted

[floral quiver]

Yes

Everything is haunted because Everything has silk in them

[twin dragon]

No, not at all

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[twin dragon]

Most of the npcs we talk to aren't haunted

[floral quiver]

Thats why Hornet can reclaim silk

[near jasper]

The rest gms can put silk into so it doesnt matter much

[twin dragon]

having silk strands in your body and being tied to gms isnt the same

[near jasper]

Yes

[twin dragon]

everything has silk strands apparently, not all of em are haunted

[floral quiver]

It's what allows control.

[near jasper]

I mean silkeaters and styx do litterally live in silk nests

[floral quiver]

If there was no silk in their bodies there would be no Haunting

[twin dragon]

Every haunted bug has silk in their body but not every bug with silk in their body is haunted

[near jasper]

Yes

[twin dragon]

anyways im off to sleep

[near jasper]

Gn

[maiden rune]

might be a bit of a rookie question (and mostly unrelated to the previous conversation) but what is up with the judges? like we know that they guard the path to the grand gate in the blasted steps and that they only let past pilgrims who are pure/sinless, but what exactly went on with them in the time before the citadel? were they a seperate civilisation of sorts or were they just simple minded bugs who were eventually brainwashed from birth into serving the citadel? ig this isn't hugely important in the lore but i just find it an interesting subject

[finite wind]

Do not EVER apologize or feel bad for asking a question

That's how they want to shut us down

Never stop being curious

(idk the answer though)

[foggy stratus]

I'd wager they were either a subjagated race or in the past they made a deal with the Citadel that evolved into what they are today, brainwashed soldiers of the Citadel. Also don't feel bad for asking questions.

[near jasper]

I want more last judge lore

[graceful smelt]

Ikr

He’s mysterious af

She?

[near jasper]

Dont give the last boss of the main route through one of your chapters 4 lines of text

[near jasper]

Ye

[graceful smelt]

Ok

[finite wind]

Hey character is not important

He's a judge after all, she should be impartial

[foggy fractal]

they don't seem to have been a civlization of their own
from the looks of it they're just bugs native to pharloom of which the citadel chose to train and equip to judge

[finite wind]

So it doesn't matter who's in the role

[finite wind]

Hi guys

[plain ruin]

No in-game confirmation but the LJ voice actor said she enjoyed "doing her voice"

[graceful smelt]

Yea

Every LJ voice line:

[near jasper]

Squirm mother/last judge as one of the buffed version of bosses in "dlc 2 we buff some guys in a dream"

Trust

[graceful smelt]

“Hokee! Hoha! Hahe!”

[limpid summit]

Probably the latter

Who knows if they were Conductor or Weaver era though

[spark valve]

the tablet emphasizes gilding so maybe conductor era, but the practice of becoming judges could've predated the current norms

[limpid summit]

Valid

[frigid belfry]

brainwashed seperate race made into gatekeepers to guard the grand gate and "beat up" those they deem sinless

i know removed content is never valid, but there was old code suggesting LJ wouldnt attack you if you did a sort of pacifist run

there are obvious narrative reasons

like the wealth gap, religion blah blah

[tawdry flare]

woah that would’ve been actually interesting

[maiden rune]

ye, canonically it also wouldn't make sense in relation to the first game since she has killed bugs in hallownest (vessels in this case) thus deeming her impure to some extent

[marble oasis]

What dialogue does she even have

[near jasper]

Didnt say dialogue

All of it is the lore tablets on blasted steps

[marble oasis]

Then that’s not even her

[bold night]

what is lifeblood and void and why can they be close together but like dont mix?

[near jasper]

We dont know

Best bet is the abyss creature being an abyss living being already knew how to ignore void and that was passed onto lifeblood

[bold night]

but why dont they mix at all why is there no viod in worm wayd

[keen narwhal]

ok let me answer

with atheory

[keen narwhal]

ill answer with a theory

so life blood doesnt mix with void

becuase it goes inside the knights shell in hk

now it doesnt affect the area in wormways becuaseeeeeeee its far away from the infection area

and overall the area seems very devoid of haunting

unless you go outside of it

[near jasper]

I dunno

[fierce narwhal]

i wanna know what was written here sb

[keen narwhal]

we dont know

but it would probably connect to

the area in some way

[keen narwhal]

sorry talking to you

if we look here it would probably say to keep praying and stay on the path and becareful of the lava ahead something like that

we dont know exactly

but from the context of the other ones

it would probably say that

also try using needolin if you have it

maybe it will have words on it

[fierce narwhal]

tru... would be cool if it written by cindril aswell also since this hard doesnt have any strings on it anymore needolin doesnt do anythimg sadly

[keen narwhal]

ohhhhhh

hold on who is cindril let me look

ah ok

maybe it was written by people who lived in the cindrel

im back

[keen narwhal]

i think the people

the bugs

not people

i think the spiders of pharlooms past wrote these or pilgrims of high regard

[floral quiver]

The harps?

The needolin ones,

[keen narwhal]

yes the harps and who wrote them

yes

[floral quiver]

The Weavers of ages past

[keen narwhal]

i was rightttttttt

[floral quiver]

Thus why you need the Needolin

And why there are some with newer, pilgrim made inscriptions covering them

[keen narwhal]

yep makes sense and also what do you think this specific harp said?

i gave my guess

[fierce narwhal]

the reason why i said cindril is because her weavenest has the anklets and the map of paths outside of pharloom so swift step is fitting

[floral quiver]

Unknown and hard to determine

[keen narwhal]

well ok

[keen narwhal]

i mean that makes sense

[floral quiver]

It most likely is a prayer to Cindril.

[keen narwhal]

but idk if she wrote it

[floral quiver]

Like the others

[keen narwhal]

ah that too

[floral quiver]

No

[keen narwhal]

oh was it written as a prayer to her?

[floral quiver]

The harps are all written to the Weaver in questiom

[fierce narwhal]

i mean

[floral quiver]

We dont know its broken

[keen narwhal]

oh so that means the harp is for her

that makes sense

[fierce narwhal]

rune harps are a technology specific to weavers

[keen narwhal]

with the

grey root one i remeber

[keen narwhal]

ok

[floral quiver]

Basically, every burial spike has a harp at the base that extols the Weaver within to give some benefit to the bugs that pass by it, even in death.

[fierce narwhal]

with the other harps it seems that it was more like a guide to said buried Weavers, like an ephigy (THE WORDS CARVED ONTO GRAVE STONES I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY'RE SPELLED)

[floral quiver]

Despite their non-divinity the Weavers seem a very spiritual people

[fierce narwhal]

im guessing they were written by weavers who left pharloom, left as a tribute to the ones who stayed behind

[floral quiver]

Their dead have power in their mindset

[fierce narwhal]

very, with crests being called a "weaver term" by eva aswell

[floral quiver]

One of the reasons I dont think they directly ruled Pharloom as queens or something. They built the Citadel, entombed their Honored dead with prayers, and fled.

[fierce narwhal]

this i feel like, due to their nature, their rule was a lot more secretive

it would fit with their theming aswell very shadow government puppeting behind the scenes type of deal

[floral quiver]

They also seem to take their roles as hidden gods serious, protecting and aiding their unaware supplicants even as they used them to hold still their Lying Mother.

[fierce narwhal]

to me they remind me alot of like saints in catholicism personally, presiding over specific domains and having sites of worship with holy remains to boot

[floral quiver]

Reading dialogue has made me wonder how much of a lie the Citadel was. Like, in the beginning.

Reading through all the dialogue and lore snippets there's nothing really saying "The Citadel keeping Silk asleep was some big secret hidden from everyone. The Weavers lied to them".

[fierce narwhal]

i dont think they lied necessarily rather they conveniently omitted a big part of the plan, i always wondered how exactly does the religion of the citadel work? how much is the haunting and how much is genuine belief, what are they worshipping exactly? silk itself? or some archaic corruption of silk, do they think the song is waking her up actively?

[edgy nebula]

i dont think pilgrims would go on willy nilly if they realized they were helping trap an angry god

conductor ballador implies they didnt know about gms anyway iirc

[floral quiver]

Why?

That's a worthy goal.

[fierce narwhal]

maybe the promise of riches and luxury all throughout the pilgrimage was more enticing than any greater good or goal otherwise

[floral quiver]

Conductor Ballador doesnt imply they didn't know, he outright states that even as they ruled, the god they were striving to keep hidden was pulling the strings.

Your chambers are surely grand, sir bug, but it is plain to see you are no sovereign here.

Is our state so bare, pilgrim?... "By the will of the Conductors," we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree.
But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.
Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise.
Would you see her, pilgrim? Up there at our Citadel's crown? Reach those heights we'd hoped to hide and bow before this land's true ruler.

The mantle of conductor weighs heavy. Had I known the cost, before its bearing, would I have accepted the duty?

Dear devout... have we failed?
Remember their voices...
Now only silence...
Only our sickness...
Only our song...

[fierce narwhal]

i always thought that becoming a conductor made you "in the know" about the original purpose of the citadel, not that they gradually realized

[edgy nebula]

ah, i thought he said something else, mb

[floral quiver]

It's a sect trying to contain a hidden god. Operational and information security is a must.

[edgy nebula]

i dont think this is ever explicitly stated

ballador goes on and on about how he didnt know the cost of bearing a conductor's mantle at the start

[fierce narwhal]

yeah thats why i said thought, its my own interpretation of the dialogue

[floral quiver]

He rose from the ranks.

Opsec and infosec

Knowledge to be kept safe is knowledge that only those who should know know

[fierce narwhal]

it could very well be possible that either hes talking about being a lesser rank, not knowing, becoming a conductor, then knowing
or
became a conductor, at first didn't know, gradually over time he came to know
both are equally possible imo

[marble oasis]

Ballador was an original conductor

[floral quiver]

How do you know?

[edgy nebula]

yeah he was handpicked iirc

[marble oasis]

They became “in the know” the second the Weavers left

[floral quiver]

Where is that mentioned?

[edgy nebula]

"The mantle of conductor weighs heavy. Had I known the cost, before its bearing, would I have accepted the duty?"

implies he was directly offered it

[marble oasis]

They were like please please please let us run the citadel this place is fucking awesome and the weavers were like fine we’re all about to go mummify ourselves so here oh also the religion is fake and there’s a sleeping god above us who will kill you all if she wakes have fun with that

[floral quiver]

Yes.

Why do you assume the Weavers were the ones to give him the position?

[edgy nebula]

"But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown."

[marble oasis]

I don’t think the Weavers “picked” Ballador

[edgy nebula]

the first children are the weavers

not necessarily picked but he didnt rise through the ranks

[floral quiver]

Yes. They gave them a job, containing Silk. Even as they proclaimed their glory she made her way in.

[edgy nebula]

i do wonder how choosing the conductors went though

[floral quiver]

Prove it.

[marble oasis]

I assume he was a conductor prior to the claiming of power from the Weavers, in whatever capacity the Conductors existed before then

[floral quiver]

Why?

The Citadel is ancient

[fierce narwhal]

that's what i agree in aswell

[floral quiver]

The immortality experiments are relatively recent

[marble oasis]

He talks about claiming the rule like he was there, he holds the rune harp that was a direct deed of succession, and he is on Silk life support

[marble oasis]

Not really

[foggy fractal]

if only we had silk life support irl

[floral quiver]

No he doesn't. Thats in a different room among Conductor corpses

[fierce narwhal]

not really...? whiteward seems like if not the most ancient part of the citadel, including the very weaver-made silk siphon mechanism

[marble oasis]

You are wrong

There are also no other Conductor corpses than his and Mizello’s

[edgy nebula]

"The mantle of conductor weighs heavy. Had I known the cost, before its bearing, would I have accepted the duty?" he accepted the duty of the conductors and talks about how it was claimed greedily from the weavers, implying he was there when the system was made

[edgy nebula]

well, not anymore

[marble oasis]

It’s genuinely crazy to me how you can sew up a person like joining cloth back together and it just fucking works

That doesn’t feel right

[floral quiver]

No? Thats not implied.

[fierce narwhal]

also the many claw pin injection mechanisms are directly modelled after many weavenest mechanisms

[foggy fractal]

aye man what about that one in blasted steps

[fierce narwhal]

we dont talk about them.

[marble oasis]

I thought about it lmao

[edgy nebula]

he genuinely has the rune harp of the last words of the weavers idk what to tell you

[marble oasis]

No such thing brother

[edgy nebula]

removed, deleted, erased!

[floral quiver]

what he says doesnt imply he was there.

[fierce narwhal]

the wind was too strong one day and their mask crumbled apart between updates

[floral quiver]

That that doesnt imply it was a lie.

Just compartmentalized sect knowledge

The leadership knew, Ballador learned upon ascending to his position. It negative affected him.

[edgy nebula]

"The mantle of conductor weighs heavy. Had I known the cost, before its bearing, would I have accepted the duty?"

"But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown." these two dialogues are confirmation enough that he was there when the conductors were chosen and that he was an original conductor

[foggy fractal]

mmmmmm egg yoke

[marble oasis]

It was a yoke, it was all one big yoke

[edgy nebula]

it only affected him after the fact, when he was on his deathbed and all the gilding and gold couldnt cover up the fact he was useless in life

[floral quiver]

Yes. That doesnt imply he himself was actively there during the time when the Citadel was stone

[marble oasis]

https://tenor.com/view/writing-too-fire-fire-writing-writing-fire-friendcord-gif-7801118907023267493

[edgy nebula]

the conductors are the ones who gilded the citadel what are you on about

[fierce narwhal]

was it rancid i wonder

[floral quiver]

Yes!

But you're saying that Ballador was physically there, at the founding of the Citadel. That's a logical reach compared to him rising to his position and the Conductors having always known but kept it need to know sect knowledge and him learning it when he took his office

[edgy nebula]

he knows knowledge that only someone who was there would know and clutches the weaver's last message in his hands after death it's pretty heavily implied

also i never said he was there when the citadel was founded huh

when the gilded citadel was founded definitely but not the citadel itself

[floral quiver]

people can write things down and tell only those who need to know.

[marble oasis]

Why are we bringing the gilding into this

[floral quiver]

He didnt need to be there for one of his new fellows to say "Here, the information on your new job, we must keep the old Goddess asleep".

[floral quiver]

Prove it.

[edgy nebula]

he's a conductor

[floral quiver]

So?

[edgy nebula]

and yet we have no proof of this happening for ballador

[edgy nebula]

the conductors, did, in fact, gild the citadel

[floral quiver]

Over at least 14 generations!

Thats how many architects there've been. And the Architects should last at least as long as a mortal bug

[marble oasis]

Architects predate Conductor rule

[floral quiver]

How?

What says that?

[marble oasis]

First Architect built the Sentinels

Sentinels kidnapped Pilgrims for the choir

[floral quiver]

Where is that said?

[marble oasis]

Ergo this was in the days when the Weavers just started the choir and needed to fill it up as fast as possible

[floral quiver]

No?

[marble oasis]

Twelfth Architect upon showing her the cogheart

[marble oasis]

Yes

[edgy nebula]

i wonder if architects were originally gray like weaver tech

[marble oasis]

We see all the old ones

[dire lynx]

A gleaming order, cogwork sentinels, so impressive-majestic in function they were charged-b-b-bound to the highest holy duty.
Long before the c-c-creation of the core, the sentinels ventured, even beyond these walls, to see all bugs brought-forced safe to serve the Citadel.
If the h-h-h-heart were restored within the sentinel's shell, would it give thanks for the awakening? Or would it grieve those lands now l-l-lost?