sk-lore

[near jasper]

and then the land with the haunting

[keen narwhal]

its like microplastics but silk

[keen narwhal]

yes

[candid linden]

why is pharloom still haunted even when shes in the void

how can she use her silk

[near jasper]

because she aint dead

[keen narwhal]

becuase she is in some form of control from the silk still

[near jasper]

big cocoon wall

[candid linden]

also when lace talks to us

[near jasper]

so she doesnt drown

[candid linden]

before the fight

how is she talking to us

and why does she even fight us

[near jasper]

we have her silk heart

[candid linden]

we tryna save her

[candid linden]

huh how

[keen narwhal]

and also the void is on the silk so we get void filled hauntings

[near jasper]

shes voided

[candid linden]

how do we have her silk heart

[keen narwhal]

we are trying to save lace and kill GNS

GMS

that is what is happening in lost lace

[near jasper]

we took it after cradle ifght

fight

[keen narwhal]

yeah

[candid linden]

wait why does she fight us at all

[keen narwhal]

the test fight

[candid linden]

even before shes voided

[keen narwhal]

to test us

[candid linden]

hmm

[keen narwhal]

she says she was testing us

[near jasper]

she wanted to give us to gms to prove shes worthy

in her needolin it says

[keen narwhal]

and she was talking about how we will regret coming in these lands and such

[candid linden]

why didnt gms care about lace until the void happened?

[keen narwhal]

she never did

also thats her kid

[near jasper]

she did care a bit

shes just a shitty mom

[keen narwhal]

she created lace

[keen narwhal]

yeah

pale king better

she even threw her eldest daughter

into the purified ducts

just to get rid of waste

she could choose anyone and she t=chose her daughter

[near jasper]

"shut up daughter go to eternal bilewater"

[whole holly]

White lady isn't great mom either, but better than GMS

[keen narwhal]

shut up daughter i need you to clean the garbage down in the sewers

[whole holly]

Unn is best parent i guess

[keen narwhal]

yes

ohhhhh

Nika

i wanna show you something

gotta get it

[near jasper]

i guess vespa and karmelitta were also cool

[keen narwhal]

this look at this

[near jasper]

ignoring the mottled skarr situation

[keen narwhal]

yeah but thast her kids fault

they racist

to they siblings

and plus she was dying

tara you can look at it to i was answering your question

[near jasper]

the last judge door only has a single osha violation

[keen narwhal]

lol

[near jasper]

its not being hinged on the sides

[keen narwhal]

but yeah the last judge is a relgious bench trial system and the craw father is a traditional/jury system

[near jasper]

craw memento is kind of a weird memento ngl

[keen narwhal]

really?

[near jasper]

its the least hidden one in my opinion

[keen narwhal]

oh

[near jasper]

feels like a spot for something else you know?

[keen narwhal]

well i think its supposed to be a easy one

and i didnt even know that mementos existed

until i foght them

[whole holly]

mementos are weird

[keen narwhal]

so i think its a good way to introduce them

[whole holly]

what do they even do

[keen narwhal]

idk i would sya they are rewards for completing challenges

[near jasper]

theyre probably charms we dont have notches for

[keen narwhal]

huh

that would be interesting

[near jasper]

except the heart

[keen narwhal]

oh true

unless you can make a stral projection you

bro imagine you can sommun another you

[near jasper]

thats just hornet liking having an organ stapled to her wall

[keen narwhal]

idk how that would wokr

[keen narwhal]

true

ah yes this si the heart of a prince from a destroyed kingdom

[near jasper]

weaversong

[keen narwhal]

lol

[whole holly]

knight does have heart themed charms

[keen narwhal]

oh really?

[near jasper]

or king/queen/plant

[keen narwhal]

oh yeah

[near jasper]

fragile/unbreakable heart and voidheart?

[foggy stratus]

And Lifeblood Heart.

[near jasper]

also is it spelled void heart or voidheart

the game version is voidheart but the charm is void heart iirc

[random harbor]

Charm: Void Heart

An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will.

This charm is a part of its bearer and can not be unequipped.

@lexmolten used /charms category: L-W charm: Void Heart

[foggy stratus]

Void Heart.

[keen narwhal]

i hate deepnest

[near jasper]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Voidheart_Edition

[whole holly]

i love deepnest

[keen narwhal]

bro its givien me ptsd

every singl time something moves i attack it

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-hole-spiderjump-spider-jump-wolf-gif-10472879830386971992

[keen narwhal]

i attacked the widow lady when i first met her she deserved

[keen narwhal]

also i used to love spiders but becuase deepnest i hate them

[near jasper]

does gatama have a meaning or is hornet just shouting random word salad at people until they get mad enough to punch her

[whole holly]

i really love Greenpath and loved moss grotto

[twin dragon]

choral chambers tops

[keen narwhal]

well its in a differnt language

[whole holly]

i disagree

[twin dragon]

only area without a boss

[near jasper]

v

[keen narwhal]

i think shaw is a racial slur to the knight

[near jasper]

ducts

[twin dragon]

true

[whole holly]

Lost Verdania as well

[twin dragon]

also grand gate but

[near jasper]

first game abyss

[twin dragon]

besides the point

[keen narwhal]

i love the cogwork core

its so fun when you can aprkour

and actually know what you are doing

[near jasper]

i did cog core without double jump

[keen narwhal]

idk everything that makes me suffer i slowly love

[keen narwhal]

me as well

[twin dragon]

everyone does

[keen narwhal]

stockholm syndrom ah

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/corn-silly-porcupine-eat-gif-532232702216691501

[keen narwhal]

i hate these spiders man

they everywhereeeeee

deep nest is for bums

[near jasper]

how does binding something post death work

[keen narwhal]

if you live in deepnest your abum

[keen narwhal]

what do you mean?

[near jasper]

like the crest corpses

and weaver spires

[keen narwhal]

oh you mean binding something that is dead?

[near jasper]

yea

[keen narwhal]

well it has soul that is left over still

i mean thats the only way you can bind you need to soul to bind

[near jasper]

why do we have to do the whole song and dance in chapels to just bind enemies we already killed

[keen narwhal]

so a soul or remnanats of one would lead to some form of binding

[keen narwhal]

what do you mean song and dance

[near jasper]

why do we spend that much time when we could probably bind another bug

[keen narwhal]

wait you play a song for the dead corpses you have to bind?

you can*

[near jasper]

figure of speech

[near jasper]

yes you can

[keen narwhal]

wow ok

well we can

[near jasper]

it shows the crests icon

[keen narwhal]

i mean the bugs say

or whatever we are about to bind

says something connecting to its story right?

or what it used to think

[whole holly]

yeah they all say remember

[keen narwhal]

ahhhh

so remebering something

[whole holly]

and bunch of other stuff

[keen narwhal]

they are trying to remeber something

[keen narwhal]

that amake sense

maybe they are remebering their story to some form

idk becuase i havent seen the songs

[whole holly]

exactly, they were worshiped it seems or at very least revered and respected

[near jasper]

does the body need to be preserved well to bind

[keen narwhal]

guys i found a town and they are telling me to sit down

[keen narwhal]

right

[keen narwhal]

i think it just needs soul

the soul is a vessel to make something

or a peice of clay

now the other daay i was talking to someone about

this

when TK binds or casts a spell using soul think of it like he is making a mass of clay

to create a action

but hornet can bind aka make that clay a form

inthis case she can make soul or silk turn into something usefu for her we can see this in spells and in crests

[near jasper]

the cogwork dancer corpse had enough soul to power the second dancer in clover dancers and make the verdania memory more intact

could we bind it

[keen narwhal]

maybe

i mean

hornets bind is her consuming the soul

that is also what we discuss in that convo

so if hornet has a purpose for their soul then

boom bind

[near jasper]

how does a body keep soul long after death

[keen narwhal]

its also interesting to think about how hornet can consume like the knight

but she can give souls a purpose

the knight cant

[keen narwhal]

maybe like a ghost

not a spirit staying around

but there is like liquid soul left in their body

or their body itsel is made of soul

[near jasper]

how does absoloms mummy stay bindable with two massive cracks

[keen narwhal]

that would make sense as to how hornet consukmes them

[keen narwhal]

who body

[near jasper]

the abyss weaver

[keen narwhal]

what wherever???????????

there is a abyss weaver?

[near jasper]

to get silksoar

[keen narwhal]

ohhhhhhhhhhhh

[keen narwhal]

they have soul inthem boom

easy answer

that is ineteresting though why are they their?

[near jasper]

how did it stay

[keen narwhal]

the rock

?

[near jasper]

theres void and cracks on the mummy

the soul shouldve been eaten by now

[keen narwhal]

well if we look around there is

a gaint rock keeping them from taking it

alsooooooooo

maybe it had low amounts of soul

and they only sensed it

[near jasper]

its cracked open like an egg

[keen narwhal]

^

they only sensed it when hornet activated it

it proably had low amount of soul and it wasnt worth all the hassle

[near jasper]

why is there low soul then if not the void

[keen narwhal]

and when hornet did that boom big soul over here

[keen narwhal]

idk maybe they dont care for it becuase of the location

[mystic dome]

since it was there for so long maybe it was able to begin resisting the void before it cracked open completely

[keen narwhal]

oh yeah

also guys there is a village of spiders and they are telling me to sit down

[mystic dome]

since gms and lace got corrupted because they got teleported into the void immediately right

[keen narwhal]

yeah

oh and maybe

they cared more

for GMS and lace

and were putting most effort their instead of a rock

[mystic dome]

cause they had more power so more enticing for void to eat them?

[keen narwhal]

yes

thats what i think

i mean think about it

hornet just threw them down some quick and easy snacks

[mystic dome]

maybe it could have even been shielded from the void somehow

[keen narwhal]

would you rather beak open a rock or it the quick and easy snack

[mystic dome]

since absolom had a faction of weavers jumping into the void surely thy could have studied it a little bit

[keen narwhal]

yes i think it is becuase it is a mummifed corpse rock thing

[mystic dome]

they had that rune depicting the tendrils

[keen narwhal]

oh

guys they have a house to hold dead bodies

why would i sit down

[mystic dome]

sit down it’s okay :)

[keen narwhal]

man playing HK for the first time is so scary and rage inducing for no reason

i sat down

i cant do anything

omg i got webs

ithink they jumped me

not this shit again

[shy sorrel]

What the hell

[keen narwhal]

yeahhhhh

they even ate the head chef 🥀

no one is safe is lugolis kitchen

"cant stand the taste of the cooking? getout the kitchen!"

[runic folio]

what's that snail looking thing in the background of fleatopia

?

[keen narwhal]

i think its a beetle actually

that they use

to travel

[runic folio]

:0

[keen narwhal]

they use them like horses with carriages

[keen narwhal]

if its actually a snail idk wth it is

[covert night]

it's not

only snails are the shamans

[edgy nebula]

the trailer snails are still out there, i know in my heart

[mystic dome]

can’t stand the taste of the cooking they cook you 😭

[weary sinew]

who's the guy that gives hornet a parasite and what's his backstory?

[limpid summit]

Greyroot is something

She might be a Root like White Lady in the same way Wyrm is a title and a species

We don’t know her deal

[weary sinew]

maybe we'll learn more about her in a future silksong update? the parasite has to be important if it can completely alter the game's ending

[lone folio]

Don't get your hopes upp, we didn't get an explanation for the delicate flower until a game later and we got nothing 😭

[onyx jolt]

it repels void

[candid linden]

why were the weavers experimenting in white ward

[umbral flower]

This is genuienly so important to the lore…

Hornet has never touched the ground

SHE IS FLOATING

[grave stream]

do you think it would be possible to restore the voided people with plasmium in the new dlc?

[candid linden]

huh

[foggy stratus]

You're replacing giga cancer with a different giga cancer.

[foggy fractal]

I don't think so

[grave stream]

less extreme examples have happened

there's a disease where doctors give the patients malaria

[candid linden]

is plasmium bad?

[grave stream]

in high doses

[foggy stratus]

If overdone yes.

[candid linden]

what happens

[grave stream]

nicotine

[foggy stratus]

Have you seen act 3 wormways?

[grave stream]

i don't think it's THAT far fetched

to be fair it might turn into alphys's lab but hey that's life

[candid linden]

I mean

plasmified Zango I guess

[grave stream]

he is NOT the problem

[candid linden]

really?

[foggy stratus]

My brother in Void have you seen literally everything else in the Wormways?

Its ALL effected

[candid linden]

yeah so what

are they in pain or something

[foggy stratus]

[candid linden]

the bugs

[foggy stratus]

Bro look at them.

Their organs are transmutated.

[grave stream]

zylotol

[foggy stratus]

FEV looking ass mutations.

[grave stream]

ok but could we save garmond with a crap ton of plasmium

like just jamming it in there

[candid linden]

I mean

[foggy stratus]

I think he's already dead...

[candid linden]

overdosing with architect crest gives you blue masks

which maybe replace black masks

[candid linden]

lace wasnt

[grave stream]

i think it could go one of two ways:

• Alphys's lab in undertale

• Very fragile but alive garmond

[foggy stratus]

She's a different case.

The Void was just soaked into her.

[candid linden]

I wonder if sos will add a new ending

[grave stream]

happy ending!!!!!

we save garmond

[candid linden]

yes

[grave stream]

and then he sensimo's everywhere

[teal dune]

does anyone know why the delicate flower does not break as well in silksong

lore wise not gameplay

is it because its like dream essence or something

[keen narwhal]

i am back

topic?

[candid linden]

was void a part of the story at all brfore act 3

or did it just make a suprise appearance

[keen narwhal]

i think suprise

there was nothing hinting to it

it just kinda happened

[candid linden]

I wish it was hinted a bit more

[keen narwhal]

yeah

[candid linden]

still pretty cool

[keen narwhal]

yep

[candid linden]

but it didnt feel a part of the story enough

the void swallowed gms amd now the haunting has a void effect

and thats about it

[keen narwhal]

anyways guys i got a autograph from zote sherma and grimm

[keen narwhal]

yeah

[shy sorrel]

How do hornet and knight not drop their weapons at all?

no matter what happens they always somehow hold it

[pure pecan]

Hornet drops it at beginning of silksong

But otherwise maybe they just have insane grip strength

[candid linden]

how do they respawn

[pure pecan]

Idk

Maybe steel soul is canon

[shy sorrel]

Do they glue it to their hands or smth lol

[shy sorrel]

what about cocoons and silk eater

[candid linden]

idek

[pure pecan]

In steel soul you can’t use silk eaters

And you can’t make a cocoon

Because you can’t die

[candid linden]

let them eat gms cocoon

[twilit storm]

What would you think would happen if a pilgrim or non pure beings tried to use a silk eater

[marble oasis]

Nothing?

It would just go off and eat whatever silk was nearby

[twilit storm]

I thought it would’ve been something cool 😔

Aw man

[edgy nebula]

respawning isnt canon

[marble oasis]

Somehow hornet respawning is more plausible than the knight though

[floral quiver]

Prescience. Hornet never dies. Every death is a discarded timeline where she meets her end. The pilgrims of Pharloom see Hornet as smartly well-rested if a bit prone to nightmares as she perfectly carves her way through her sacred trek on her first try.

[marble oasis]

Explain the cocoon

[floral quiver]

That is a gameplay thing. 🙂

[marble oasis]

I think she could just spin it as a decoy and then slink off to the bench to lick her wounds

The Shade and the Knight existing at the same time is impossible

[midnight reef]

So is hornet and her corpse

[marble oasis]

That’s not necessarily a corpse in there

[floral quiver]

Welcome to being somewhat divine! 😄

Its an odd life

I enjoy the way Hornet wears her needle. Hung low on the hips, point diagonally down, such that it's either riding along the back of her hips or pointed forward and down toward where she will strike when drawing into a sting.

[marble oasis]

I think she’s just constantly holding it

[keen narwhal]

i have a theory that they have forsight to some extent

inst in true that the wyrms had forsight

so technically they have it it too but somehow it also affect their money

so technically i think every death isnt canon

when you die nothing happens

[plain ruin]

Think someone just said that

[keen narwhal]

ah thank you

but still i believe in that theory as well

[tawdry flare]

MIO spoilers^^

[raven tinsel]

lmao

silson

[tawdry flare]

no that’s MIO trust

[raven tinsel]

Actually ion even know

yea probably mio that game has too many acroynms

[edgy nebula]

haunted bugs just naturally attack other bugs, including hornet

[marble oasis]

GMS does summon bugs to come kill her

It can be reasonably assumed that GMS has no problem binding a corpse since Hornet can

[floral quiver]

||Because she doesn't need to be alive to be bound.||

||Where she to be staked to serve like Widow, then she would need to be alive, but to take her power just requires her corpse.||

[crimson patio]

So… how do we know Widow was made to serve GMS
What if she’s just insane like that

[floral quiver]

Implication.

[crimson patio]

Nvm I found out why
Her needolin animation has silk threads in it

[limpid summit]

Technically that doesn’t exist

She might be haunted

Probably is de facto haunted

But like TC wouldn’t need to remove her strings cause you can’t get the needolin regularly

[plain ruin]

"Staked to serve" where are you taking that from

Widow was certainly staked, but she wasn't staked to serve

Weavers cast those rods into her spine and cast her mask off of her because she remained loyal to GMS

[plain ruin]

Widow's haunted, but I think she allowed herself to be haunted

[floral quiver]

Did she? Hm. Alright then.

[plain ruin]

Out of a deranged sense of loyalty, as well as a desire for revenge against the Weavers

[floral quiver]

Where is it brought up?

[plain ruin]

Wrote out a big theory a while back connecting Widow to the "Twelth of the First" Slab lore tablet

There's more evidence pointing to her current state being caused by other Weavers than GMS, I believe

[floral quiver]

Wait. How is that related to Widow?

[plain ruin]

Explained the connection here, it's fairly long but the lines in the lore tablet all can be connected to Widow

[floral quiver]

I find a few points of that confusing. "Casting" is an odd term to use in this instance for what you say it's supposed to be. In this case, "Casting" reads more like feeding a person molten metal and using them as a mold (and killing them in the process, obviously). And the assumption that the First Sinner sinned against her sisters by telling outsiders of their non-divinity rather than by committing apostasy by discovering and telling her sisters they aren't divine, leading to the rebellion against Silk in the first place is kinda awkward and takes something away from her gravitas in the tragic opera that is Pharloom.

[plain ruin]

That's one definition of it of course, but TC has used older/less common definitions for words before, and three different definitions of the word can be applied to Widow. If the Weavers wanted to disguise her sin to prevent anyone from learning about GMS, writing the tablet in this way would achieve that. First Sinner may not have actually gotten to tell any bugs about their true origins, but the simple fact that she could may have been enough for the other Weavers to see her as a potential threat that had to be sealed away. If FS had threatened to tell other bugs, or if she had managed to tell someone the truth, the Weavers could have easily silenced a knowing bug alongside dealing with FS. The Weavers absolutely revelled in their false godhood and the rule it enabled, and they were willing to go to great lengths to maintain it. Locking away one sister while breaking and casting another into exile fits the bill of a Weaver, imo

I don't think FS necessarily discovered their origins, I think she knew from the start. That memory may have always been there, or perhaps she just witnessed GMS elevating other Pharlids after the success of "creating" the first Weaver

[floral quiver]

Discovering their divinity was a lie, that their godly mother was not their mother, was a large reason for the divine rebellion the Weavers undertook. The entirety of everything the Weavers did after that point was seemingly in service of finding a way to free themselves or escape. Basically everything that's concrete when it comes to the Weavers is situated in ancient boltholea and bunkers hidden away from Her sight, filled with research and desperation to build something, some weapon or construct or tool that could kill or contain their lying mother. Multiple sisters gave their lives so that their strength and knowledge could be used by someone in time who could put a permanent end to Her after it was realized that She could be contained, but not stopped.

My point being that someone knowing from the beginning takes away from that arc. The Weavers were divine daughters of a powerful goddess. Until it was discovered to be a cruel Lie. And thus they made war upon their Lying "Mother". Hidden and cunning war, for they were always spiders.

[plain ruin]

Weavers are naturally inclined towards ruling over others, a characteristic they likely received from GMS, as is mentioned in some Caretaker dialogue. Their rebellion was inevitable unless GMS had decided to haunt them from the start and literally force them to continue worshipping her. Though knowledge of the lie could have still contributed to the revolt. If FS knew the truth from the start, she may have tolerated it for a while, only growing angry as GMS continued to falsely claim that the Weavers were divine. Her needolin dialogue states that she was "Cursed by Silk! Cursed with Silk! Cursed to know..." which I believe indicates that she has always been burdened by this knowledge. She also has dialogue saying "The sin... the truth...", meaning that she saw this lie as a sin from GMS, and perhaps the perpetuation of this lie by the other Weavers is what led to her committing apostasy. She may have grown tired of this lie, she wanted it to die, but in her attempts to kill it she was caught and imprisoned by the other Weavers, all of whom did not have to live with this knowledge in the same way she did. Maybe FS never actually told them about their origins, or maybe they just denied the truth and anything that hinted at this truth.

[floral quiver]

I'm wondering were you're getting that the First Sinner was imprisoned by other Weavers after the Citadel plan was enacted, rather than by Silk after starting a rebellion against her rule and spreading apostasy among her daughters.

Her whole deal is that she waited, sustained by hate and burning fury and the knowledge that Silk had lied until she physically couldn't anymore, then waited even longer as a spirit clinging to a corpse until finally someone worthy enough to defeat her spirit and prove their ability to reclaim her land from Grandmother Silk arrived.

[plain ruin]

Citadel symbol is visible at the top of the door, so this cage was created after GMS was lulled into a long slumber within her Silk cocoon

[floral quiver]

No?

The Citadel was a long term project and was built in the open as veneration to Silk (and as a secret weapon). That's Her symbology. That it's there proves very little. The Slab is probably one of the oldest parts of the Citadel still visible, considering it's made of roughhewn stone much like the original Citadel, if it isn't even older than the Citadel itself, built to hold prisoners under Silk's reign.

[fierce narwhal]

ehh

i don't really agree, its not impossible that the cocoon was used before her slumber, but it's very unlikely in my opinion, also secret weapon...???

[plain ruin]

How could this symbol exist before her slumber

[fierce narwhal]

also the use of gilded metals is a very post slumber citadel thing imo

[plain ruin]

If GMS had made the Citadel symbol, it would feature something that emphasizes her desired status as the ruler of Pharloom

[floral quiver]

Because it's Her symbology?
The Weavers co-opted it when forming their weaponized religion?

[fierce narwhal]

where's your evidence or proof of this...?

[floral quiver]

It emphasizes Her symbolically

[plain ruin]

It's a symbol depicting what is essentially her bedchambers

Grand Mother Silk already has her own symbol she could have used. That little Halo energy sword thing she has as a crown

Why wouldn't she use that if she had made the Citadel and its symbols

[floral quiver]

The Citadel was an open tribute to Silk, thus why it was allowed to be built. That it was a weapon to keep her asleep was a secret. Thus secret weapon.

[fierce narwhal]

there are some structures that look like it that are used as polls but those were made post slumber and probably from like descriptions of her likeness

[plain ruin]

Which structures?

[floral quiver]

Because that's not her symbol just like the halo isn't the symbol of Christianity.

[fierce narwhal]

ill find em hold on

[plain ruin]

The adoption of the cross as the symbol for Christianity occurred after the crucifixion. If that logic is applied to GMS and the symbol of the Citadel, then there is no way that GMS could have created this symbol, as she would have been very asleep

[floral quiver]

Her symbol is a spool of silk because that is what She is. And it references her spider like appearance with her wide hips, much like a spool of silk.

[fierce narwhal]

from artist Mebis tumblr

[floral quiver]

Yes, and the spool symbol is as old as the Citadel, being carved into its very foundations.

When Silk was very much active

[dire lynx]

the symbol is her sleeping cocoon in the giant crook they built around it to harvest her silk

[plain ruin]

The Citadel symbol is very clearly modeled after the cocoon she is sleeping in.

It even shares the same orientation

[fierce narwhal]

i think you have a very different interpretation of what the citadel was before than the rest of the community

[plain ruin]

Interesting stuff, ty

[floral quiver]

A secret trap designed by desperate spiders in divine rebellion against their lying and cruel mother?

[fierce narwhal]

also i just realized the wing thingies on the symbol probably comes from the huuge silk strands coming from the left and right side

[dire lynx]

yeee

glad im not the only one who thought that

[silver prawn]

Also looks more pleasing aesthetically

But yeah

[floral quiver]

Like, what is it otherwise?

[fierce narwhal]

I'm just kind of confused on what you consider the citadel is. i always thought that it was made specifically in mind as a trap, yet you mention her being active during the construction which I don't really follow unless i am mistaking your interpretation

[silver prawn]

So

[floral quiver]

It was a trap, but disguised as veneration so that She wouldn't catch wise.

[silver prawn]

GMS was not awake during the Citadel's construction, that was when the Weavers started ruling over Pharloom

It was built as a trap

[floral quiver]

??

[silver prawn]

To lure bugs in so they would offer their song

[floral quiver]

They ruled after the Citadel was built and she was comtained

[plain ruin]

Or the Weavers lulled her to sleep and then proceeded to create the Citadel and its religion to ensure that this sleep would hold

[fierce narwhal]

yeah i don't really see the veneration part like its not impossible but i find it less likely

[floral quiver]

I'm very confused

The whole reason the Citadel is the Citadel is that it's a trap disguised as a religion. As veneration. The Citadel was built in Her name, she was lulled to sleep, then the trap was sprung and she stayed asleep, with every successive generation putting more and more unknowing effort into keeping her asleep.

[dire lynx]

the citadel was built to worship the weavers, almost nobody even knows gms exists

[floral quiver]

Thus the drive for expansion and mechanization and eternal life

[silver prawn]

The Citadel was built to keep the cocoon a secret

The Weavers themselves were seen as gods by the generations of pilgrims that walked through Pharloom

[plain ruin]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Weaver_Effigy

[silver prawn]

And ended up in the Citadel

[floral quiver]

Where? Where is this mentioned? Please, my paradigm is spewing.

... sorry. :embarrassed:

[silver prawn]

"Weaver, heal my sons, their fearful hearts, their limbs that shake at the climb to come. We pray, gift but a glimmer of your strength, that when we stand before your divinity, you see bugs shed free of fear."

"Blessed Weaver, lady of grace, you who see our sin, our frail shells, our voices weak, and still offer your protection. How great your mind to care so much for ones so lowly."

"By grace of your example, and our history held full in mind, our song is yours, as your name is sacred. Weaver Atla, may you be praised eternal."

[floral quiver]

Yes? That's not something I'm confused about

[silver prawn]

Pretty sure Unn Fan said earlier that they did not even know of GMS

Only of the Weavers

[dire lynx]

weaver effigies, and for example the old vaultkeeper who went mad after discovering the truth behind the song, also ballador who said that the conductors took the mantle of leader greedily but regretted it after learning the truth of the citadel

[fierce narwhal]

and the conductors as well

[floral quiver]

That's not what I'm asking. Why was the Citadel built?

Where is this mentioned?

Not the Weavers as gods, but that the Citadel was built ostensibly for their worship?

[dire lynx]

the entire citadel is built around keeping gms asleep

[plain ruin]

Mask maker dialogue
Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.
Mask Maker: Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[dire lynx]

knew there was something i forgot

thx frito

[floral quiver]

So if I have this right, the consensus is

Silk rules over Pharloom

Weavers rebel secretly

Weavers devise song to keep Silk asleep (along with other weapons and tools)

Weavers deploy song, putting Silk to sleep.

While she's asleep, they construct a Citadel and accompanied religion to keep the song up so she'll stay asleep

Weavers rule over pharloom.

Do I have it right?

[dire lynx]

yaa

[silver prawn]

Yup

Right timeline

[floral quiver]

Okay, but my timeline means the Weavers are tricksy and cunning cause they do both in one swoop right under their mother's nonexistent nose.

"Oh Great And Glorious Mother, look upon our works! We have built it in your worship, 'tis it not worthy of Your name? Stout and strong, as only you truly are! And listen, Goodly Mother, for we have made a song for you, that you may be sumptuously entertained as you take your rest!"

[whole holly]

they were mistreated as well, GMS isn't innocent

Grand Mother Silk is Radiance without excuses

but people tend to forgive her just because she saved lace at last second

[fierce narwhal]

i mean that could be a really cool idea for an au but it doesn't really line up with mask makers diolauge(i can't spell the word sorry)

[dire lynx]

i hate weavers, so this would be a bad thing (except for you widow ❤️‍🩹 )

[floral quiver]

Mask Maker's dialogue is non-specific.

He gives the literal why "The Citadel was built as a weapon and to allow the Weavers to rule" without any exposition on anything outside of that.

My interpretation leads into the same thing as the common consensus, just with more thematically appropriate (At least to me) mythic cunning on the Weavers part.

[fierce narwhal]

that is true hmm...

[dire lynx]

dialogue

[fierce narwhal]

yes thank you 😭

[floral quiver]

The Weavers living up to their own hype is important to my idea of the game.

They are mythic, cunning, hyperdeadly spiderfolk who are as capable and canny as their myths say. And they were driven to flee into the backwaters of the World because cunning and deadliness and mythic ability could not truly hold or slay their divine Mother.

[floral quiver]

Also, why, if I may ask?

[solar gale]

Can we talk about how both games feature a canonical gay relationship and both protagonists have an option of killing the gay characters...

[dire lynx]

they are worse versions of gms (ignoring widow, the cindril weavers [and maybe first sinner])

[candid linden]

couldn't hornet just wait a little longer in the begining cutscene to break the bridge and land in a more convenient area

[floral quiver]

I mean, technically?

I'm pretty sure she lacked the ability to discern when would be more convenient or if breaking the bridge at the moment she did would drop her into a big hole.

... unless you're being humorous and I'm taking a joke too seriously again.

[onyx jolt]

the guys carrying her are mad stupid like why tf are they going into shellwood if they need to bring her to gms 💔

[floral quiver]

To wait for an elevator.

Notice all the elevators in the background and that you climb over in that collection of areas involving the big tube?

Those go straight from the bottom of the world to the entrance to the Holy City.

[marble oasis]

if she waited like two seconds she would have fallen in bonebottom rather than all the way down the pit

[floral quiver]

Okay, but she didnt know Bone Bottom existed.

Her foreknowledge isn't that omniscient.

[finite wind]

This reminds me, why is the elevator from the citadel breaking a bug deal

Like it can only go down, and after it broke, it went down

Sure, you can't go up again, but it's not like there was somewhere else to go

[candid linden]

when do you think was the last time a bug made it to the citadel before hornet

[marble oasis]

Sherma

[finite wind]

Idk there constantly are bugs getting into the citadel

[candid linden]

so how many times is the elevator falling

[finite wind]

He gets after you

[floral quiver]

||It's a visual fakeout for the Player. The elevator starts to rise up into the lofty halls of the Citadel with grand music... before immediately dropping down into a pit and grinding to a hault and collapsing.

It's there to show visually just how degraded the Citadel is from its espoused ideals both metaphorically (the elevator leads to the Underworks) and literally (The machine that is the Citadel is physically broken)||

[finite wind]

Yes I know that

[ionic stump]

y spoiler

[finite wind]

But there outcome would have been the same

Why have a bigass and magnificent elevator to just go down to the underworks

In the citadel entrance

[floral quiver]

It's visual narration and metaphor.

[finite wind]

Can't even get to the citadel from the grand gate

[finite wind]

I'm talking about the in game lore here...

[floral quiver]

You can. 🙂

[finite wind]

How?

[ionic stump]

the elevator doesnt even lead to the choral chambers btw

[finite wind]

Yeah that's my point

[floral quiver]

Yes?

[ionic stump]

if you use silk soar in act 3 it just goes here

[floral quiver]

The elevator isn't intended to go up

In setting

[finite wind]

Yes we know, that's what I'm talking about

[floral quiver]

It's there to fit a lot of pilgrims at once.

Then what's the issue?

[finite wind]

.

[floral quiver]

Ducts

[finite wind]

.

[finite wind]

Which ducts?

[floral quiver]

The elevator is for new pilgrims, there are more direct entrances for proper sect members, theyre just barricaded

[finite wind]

But there's no way to get into the citadel from the grand gate

[candid linden]

what

are the bugs working in the citadel haunted

[floral quiver]

In the room off of the top of the grand scales. There's a breakable way past the barricades

[floral quiver]

Yes explicitly

[finite wind]

I don't think the non flying bugs are capable enough to climb up there

Not even hornet can

[floral quiver]

The grand scales can be moved

[near jasper]

Its a breakable wall

We're bursting into the Vents

Its not even meant to be an entrance

[marble oasis]

To convince them that this is all part of the pilgrimage

[floral quiver]

Nope! The actual entrance is blocked, thus the workaround

[vestal oracle]

What about via phantom

[floral quiver]

That's not part of the liturgy

[vestal oracle]

The what

[near jasper]

Phantom is behind 2 breakable walls

[vestal oracle]

Ig that way to citadel is for phantom only

[near jasper]

Or the people throwing silk at her

[floral quiver]

Liturgy. The right and customary actions of a religious sect or doctrine

[near jasper]

So she doesnt die

[vestal oracle]

Who

[near jasper]

I dunno

[floral quiver]

It is proper liturgy to walk the pilgrim's road, ring the bells, and be judged before the Grand Gate.

It goes against liturgy to cheat, such as finding a way into a back entrance.

[near jasper]

Why are there sinners road workers dead in that room when it has no real meaning

The mists room

[vestal oracle]

So for pilgrims the religion based ethical route is judge

[near jasper]

Yes

[floral quiver]

Correct!

That's the whole point even

To prove ones worth through struggle and toil.

The worthy will walk safely through the gate, the unworthy will die.

[vestal oracle]

As far as i know those pilgrims we see near the gate, they didnt have anything against the citadel
So why did the judge kill them

[near jasper]

Idk their singing kinda sucked i guess

[floral quiver]

Partially Haunting, partially Judgement. They unintentionally breached some sin from the days when the path was safer and easier. Thus they were judged unworthy

[vestal oracle]

So we know how the judge judges but what abt the mt. Fay bird

[near jasper]

Last judge can override the agression from the haunting if someone is sinless

[vestal oracle]

It just kills or dosent kill

[floral quiver]

Very much so!

[near jasper]

Probably dislikes gms

[floral quiver]

The Judges do not strike if one is free of sin.

[floral quiver]

Few are so unburdened in these hard days

But the Judges are Haunted and cannot change

So pilgrims die.

[near jasper]

Except Sherma

[floral quiver]

To show that the room ahead is dangerous, and to visually connect the two areas. There are other places where that happens, such as the way from Deep Docks to Far Fields being marked by a dead Deep Worker on the Far Fields side.

[near jasper]

Yk technically them not killing the haunted bugs makes sense within citadel law

"Absolution granted after death." And all

This was about judges

My wifi was sending these for 5 minutes

[glacial warren]

Technically there’s also Lore explanation for it, since Phantom is charged with ensuring no one tries to enter the Citadel through the Organ. Any and all trespassers must be slain, no exceptions. So those who strayed too far got caught in the Mist, sent on a hallucinogenic acid trip, and died to Phantom’s mind games.

[candid linden]

why is there a path through the organ if no one's allowed

[dull agate]

It's a regular path

And organ made mist

Phantom can't just make wall

[near jasper]

Why is there an entrace to the organ there in the first

Dont throw silk sewage at the roaches you're farming

[dull agate]

Because it uses to just like exist as a path

And phantom can't just make a wall 😭

[midnight reef]

and Phantom sorta needs a way to get there and back to the Citadel

[sweet mason]

✨Senior Thesis Proposal Abstract and Outline Draft (Contains Silksong Spoilers)✨

Since the 1830 premiere of the French Romantic-era composer Hector Berlioz’s Symphonie Fantastique, the Dies Irae motif has been used by various composers, ranging from John Williams to Wendy Carlos, to symbolize death and its inevitability. This motif is derived from a Gregorian chant set to a medieval poem about the Book of Revelation’s Last Judgment. The origins of the Dies Irae make the classically informed composer Christopher Larkin’s extensive use of the motif itself in the soundtrack of the 2025 video game Hollow Knight: Silksong an example of a leitmotif. This paper will first discuss Stephen Sondheim’s use of the Dies Irae in the score of the 2007 film adaptation of the 1979 musical Sweeney Todd and Robert Lopez and Kristen Andersen-Lopez’s use of it in “Into the Unknown” from Frozen 2 (2019), respectively. Finally, I will analyze the track “Awakening” from Hollow Knight: Silksong to show Larkin’s use of the Dies Irae throughout the game’s soundtrack and sound design in relation to the game’s story. In this paper, I will demonstrate how the Dies Irae, as an example of a leitmotif, is used through the game’s soundtrack and sound design to remind players of the deadly trek the player character, Hornet, embarks on throughout the game’s setting of the perilous kingdom of Pharloom.

[midnight reef]

I know for the purposes of a paper, Awakening is the better choice

but- I beg you to consider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR2zqX7hijo

[sweet mason]

What? /nbr

Oh, uh...

[midnight reef]

Sorry was taking a bit to find the link

[sweet mason]

🤷

[midnight reef]

Its alllllll dies irae ;3

[sweet mason]

Looks at the entire OST + some sound design shenanigans

[sweet mason]

*At least half of it, I haven't counted lol

[midnight reef]

Most of the songs have it in some form, but memory serving Bellhart and Awakening are majority Larkin having fun with Dies Irae

[sweet mason]

✨ (leit)motif shenanigans ✨ /pos

[weary sinew]

how does the knight in the first game beat hornet so easily when hornet is so powerful in silksong?

did she get more powerful after the events of the first game?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

Well she's weaker in Silksong at the beginning but she gets stronger abilities later on

But even then she's probably not as strong as The Knight who shares her pale being heritage while also having the benefit of the void

[glacial warren]

The Knight eclipses Hornet in ability, especially comparing the two at the end of their respective games. The Knight no-diffs Hornet in its current state, and likely even before that.

Hornet’s tough, but she’s not a Vessel. The Vessels were all designed with the intent to have one of them be a container for a rampaging dream Goddess who essentially has the mental power of a Star.

[weary sinew]

interesting, thanks for the response

[foggy stratus]

One has actually fucking magic and the other, ehhh, not so much.

[dull agate]

One's the most op character in the game's world and one is a strong guy and strong womans daughter's child

[glacial warren]

Plus in terms of heritage, Hornet is only a Demigod, whereas The Knight is a full Godling, enhanced to then also transcend conventional godhood due to being a Void construct.

[dull agate]

Knight solos everything in pharloom

Spells are TOO op

If they were to make another game it would probably be hornet and lace together

Or maybe the knight?

[foggy stratus]

How much damage does Groal's Vengful Sprite do again?

[dull agate]

2

[foggy stratus]

Sadly I don't think they're making another Hollow Knight game any time soon.

[foggy stratus]

So I'd imagine TK's would do waaay more in terms of masks.

[dull agate]

12 years later ... We liked sea of sorrow so much, we made it a full game

[foggy stratus]

TK's Shade Soul deals four fucking masks of damage,

[candid linden]

how do you know

[floral quiver]

This kind of stuff I have to say "no" on.

Like, by raw skill and bodily physical power Hornet, given what we see in Silksong, and especially all the way through Silksong, could have at any time she wished fed the Knight its own nonexistent lungs and taken its head for her trophy wall with little effort.

Hornet was sandbagging hard in her interactions with the Knight because she didn't want to just slay this one instantly like the potentially countless before it.

[candid linden]

bro

the knight will completely dog her

lol

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet specifies she wouldn't hold back in her second fight

We beat her

[candid linden]

hes canonically stronger and is also the shade lord

[sinful nimbus]

Also the overall power level in Pharloom is weaker

[candid linden]

she cant handle void

hornet has no chance against him

[near jasper]

What are we actually considering here when we're powerscaling them

[sinful nimbus]

Who would beat who in a fight

[candid linden]

its legit void vs silk

void wins

[sinful nimbus]

The game already shows us the answer two times

[near jasper]

What rules

[candid linden]

no rules

wdym what rules

[foggy stratus]

Groal, someone who got their spell in a similar way to soul master and DDive, does a whole two masks with a likely rather simple form of Fireball. The Knight was not only given it by also upgrades it with a charm and it's own Void essence. As such, using Groal as a baseline, we could conclude TK would deal vastly more damage with its own spell.

[near jasper]

What do we allow

For the theoretical fight

[candid linden]

whats there not to allow

maybe we exclude charms and tools

[sinful nimbus]

Well if you allow voidheart The Knight isn't really gonna be killed under any circumstance

Without Void Heart its still probably a sweep

They both get stronger as time goes on but The Knight is shown to pretty consistently beat her at every stage

[floral quiver]

Her ability to fight, and her physical prowess against physically strong foes.

Hornet, going off what's shown in Silksong, just eats the Knight's lunch when it comes to the art that is fighting with a sword.

I believe, had she wished it so, the Knight would have landed no blows on her given its visual blade skills and slow speed compared to hers.

[candid linden]

youre giving 0 reason why she'd win

[sinful nimbus]

Wym going off of what's shown in Silksong

[candid linden]

void beats silk any day

[sinful nimbus]

"visual blade skills" ?

It swings at the same speed as her

[candid linden]

the knight is skilled with his nail

and he knows 3 techniques

[sinful nimbus]

And in universe so not going off of gameplay Sly immediately clocks it as a skilled sword user just by looking at it

You're exploring then? Very brave! Plenty of courageous wanderers have been lost to the hunger of these old caverns.
You have your nail though, and I can tell just by looking that you know how to wield it.
Insane aura

[candid linden]

the knight beat pure vessel

who was trained extensively

[floral quiver]

And pure vessel is terrible with a sword. Like, just by watching how it fights.

One of the biggest changes, to me, between Hollow Knight and Silksong is that the enemies and Hornet actually visibly know how to fight with a sword.

[candid linden]

thats just team cherry getting better at animating

[floral quiver]

Not in some kind of proclaimed but unobserved skill, but visibly on screen.

[candid linden]

we know from lore that pure vessel was trained hella

[floral quiver]

And that training was wasted

[candid linden]

not at all

[floral quiver]

Cause it cant fight with a sword to save its life

[sinful nimbus]

Wym

Hornet's needle strikes are very visually similar to the vessels

[glacial warren]

I mean she can on some level pose a challenge but. In terms of sheer power and ability, the Knight is on a very vastly different caliber. Hornet's way out of her depth here.

[near jasper]

The knight when I claw mirrors+witch crest it on the fight start cutscene

[sinful nimbus]

This kinda seems like a subjective evaluation based off of who looks cooler instead of what the text actually supports

[foggy stratus]

DDark spam go brr.

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet says she's not going to hold back in her second fight and TK whoops her

She's not going easy she's literally just weaker

[candid linden]

the knight when he uses void and hornet instantly loses

[near jasper]

Why would hornet hold back on a pantheon after she knows we can Whoop her ass while shes "holding back"

[candid linden]

it takes a laser from radiance to do 2 masks to the knight but anything deals 2 masks to hornet

[glacial warren]

The Knight, by gameplay and lore, is just on a vastly different level compared to Hornet. The Knight is to Hornet what Hornet is to a common Bug: An utterly transcendent opponent that will take a grueling amount of effort to overcome.

[floral quiver]

Not looks cooler, visibly has skill.

The Craws of Greymoor show more skill with blades in their appearances then basically any enemy who fought with one in Hollow Knight.

One of the reasons people failed so hard in the early days of the game was because bugs like the Craws could actually fight worth a dang.

[limpid summit]

Nailmasters??

[near jasper]

The knight when I deal damage eleven Times with a threadstorm

[limpid summit]

Ridiculous craw sneak

[foggy stratus]

My guy what are you actually on about.

[plain ruin]

The Knight absolutely destroys Hornet

[floral quiver]

I'm comparing shown ability to fight with a sword between the two games.

[near jasper]

We dont even know if shades can die in canon

[sinful nimbus]

How is this visually communicated

[near jasper]

The siblings just kinda leave

[sinful nimbus]

You're just kinda saying this without elaborating

[foggy stratus]

Craws can dash, plunge downward and swing it around really fast.

[sinful nimbus]

Like its true that enemies are more tough in Silksong but canonically Hallownest is said to have an abnormal amount of difficult foes and Pharloom isn't

[foggy stratus]

Like actually that's most of their move set with it.

[sinful nimbus]

Land of Gods and allat

[floral quiver]

And that's more moves than a lot of enemies who would presumably be skilled fighters in Hollow Knight.

[candid linden]

if hornet is ever above him and he uses abyssal shriek shes cooked

[sinful nimbus]

That's gameplay man

[candid linden]

also you say her needle is better when hes got pretty goated nail arts

also still void vs silk

[foggy stratus]

Sly alone has three Nail Arts on top of his normal nail strikes and a spinning buzz saw like attack.

[floral quiver]

They also know how to use and exploit spacing and timing, something that a lot of players were terribad at figuring out.

[sinful nimbus]

Enemies being dumb as bricks and having barely any attacks is because HK is rushed asf

[glacial warren]

Many of the Knight's opponents also show skill. The False Knight, while slow, still fought pretty well despite all his equipment being stolen and him not being trained in combat whatsoever. Even the feral beasts like the Brooding Mawlek pose a significant threat and take a lot of sustained focus fire to bring down. Heck even the regular Sentries in the City of Tears know how to do things like dodge backwards to get out from under you and dodge attacks. They're not completely mindless.

[sinful nimbus]

Not the false knight man 🥀

[floral quiver]

Sly is a master nail fighter and those three moves were very much his in universe thing.

[candid linden]

the knight beat zote 🔥

[glacial warren]

I mean you have to give it to him, this is a Maggot, the weakest of all Bugs, zero formal combat training, using stolen armor and a mace. He's never picked up a weapon for no real purpose in his life, and he isn't hopped-up on the Infection. But even for all that, he still puts up a fairly decent fight, enough that he's the first real challenge the Knight has to confront. He's enough of a danger that Cornifer made a point of marking his lair on his Map of the Crossroads.

[sinful nimbus]

I guess

[near jasper]

Hornet when I use flukenest defenders crest and shaman (it combos her every 0.075 seconds)

[floral quiver]

And the False Knight and Sentries would be eaten alive by the Haunted of Pharloom because the Haunting very explicitly doesn't degrade skill.

[near jasper]

The infection doesnt degrade skill either?

[foggy stratus]

Hive Knight maintains his skill.

[glacial warren]

Main thing is Hornet's a lot more fragile than the Knight, which is why she takes more 2-Mask Damage hits from enemies compared to it. Hornet has to focus more on using her dexterity to evade and dodge rather than risk getting hit directly. This is conveyed in gameplay as the big focus on using her mobility.

[foggy stratus]

The Fools of the Collosium maintain their skill.

[floral quiver]

Then why is everyone so.shit at blades, unlike Pharloom?

[near jasper]

Skill issue?

[sinful nimbus]

Gameplay

[foggy stratus]

Like who?

[dull agate]

What do you mean people are shit at me 😭😭😭

[glacial warren]

It varies from one Bug to the next. Some common fodder with a Nail doesn't know much how to fight, but the trained Sentries and Great Husks are a different story.

[near jasper]

Thk and pure vessel have the same nail attacks and one is the most heavily infected bug in hallownest

[dull agate]

ya

The difference is the HK is fighting against it

[floral quiver]

No? That's been denied by the devs. Damage isn't connected to some in universe ability to be hurt such that it can be used to measure.

Its arbitrary.

[dull agate]

So the Radiance is fighting you

[sinful nimbus]

This is a lore channel and in the lore its pretty explicitly said that Hornet is not holding back and that Hallownest is home to a large amount of dangerous foes moreso than other regions Pharloom probably included (4 higher beings vs 1)

[dull agate]

And you and the HK are fighting the hk

Pure vessel is an even 1v1

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah damage numbers are also gameplay

[dull agate]

You could say he's holding back/not holding back on you

[floral quiver]

And Hornet lies. Constantly. To herself and others.

[sinful nimbus]

No she doesn't

There's also no reason to believe this is a lie

[near jasper]

Why would she hold back in a Pantheon

[foggy stratus]

At what point does she lie.

[sharp pawn]

she only ever lies by omission

and rarely

[glacial warren]

Hornet is many things. A liar is not often one of them. Like she'll omit certain info from Sherma, like how the door in the Marrow really opened, but she never outright lies to someone's face. She has more dignity than that.

[floral quiver]

Whenever she tells herself or a bug that she's helping for purely utilitarian considerations or a reward.

[sinful nimbus]

That is uh very different

[floral quiver]

No?

[edgy nebula]

hornet is a stupid chud but not a liar

[sinful nimbus]

I wouldn't even consider that a lie

[glacial warren]

That's just her being in denial.

[plain ruin]

If the Knight unseals the Black Egg and attempts to contain/fight the Radiance but fails, Hallownest is fucked, even more than it already is. She can’t afford to hold back

[sinful nimbus]

Its also true to some extent she only really helps Pharloom in Act 3 out of obligation

[floral quiver]

That's called lying to oneself.

[near jasper]

Why would hornet hold back in godhome are the godseeker just too stupid to attune her properly

[sinful nimbus]

Why would she hold back in Hornet 2

Its specifically meant to be a test of strength if its too weak to beat her its too weak to take on the hollow knight

[glacial warren]

She wants to believe she's this badass stoic Demigod warrior who doesn't feel things but she's also the same sappy moron who gushes about fluffy round creatures she finds cute and pretends not to care when it's made evident she cares more than anyone.

[sinful nimbus]

She specifies she's not holding back too and there's no reason to doubt her there

"Everything that disproves me is a lie"

[floral quiver]

No?

She helps because she genuinely gives a shit and finds it necessary to come to some bullshit pretense because she's spent the rest of the game lying to herself on why she's actually helping these effectively random people.

This is a big part of her characterization and arc through the game!

[sinful nimbus]

proof

[floral quiver]

She can't just help without a "reason" to do so because helping altruistically is against her self perceived nature.

[near jasper]

Why would hornet hold back in godhome

[sinful nimbus]

Was helping the lifeblood junkie get more lifeblood and screw himself and the entire region up more an act of kindness in her heart

Or was it to get a reward for her own benefit

[edgy nebula]

it isnt self perceived it literally is just her nature

[floral quiver]

Her self perception is wrong because she spends the game doing heroic stuff for basically no gain constantly

[edgy nebula]

it’s made a point throughout the game that all pale beings want dominion

[sinful nimbus]

This is in act 3 btw and she knows what Lifeblood does, witnessing it in Hallownest firsthand

[glacial warren]

Some of it's obligation but a big chunk of that is, again, her being in denial about how much she's come to care about Pharloom and its residents, in particular those of Bone Bottom, Bellhart, and Songclave. She keeps trying to give herself 'logical' excuses to do acts of selfless compassion when in truth she's masking how much she cares about those she's come to see as her friends.

[edgy nebula]

except for palestag i guess but no one cares about her

[floral quiver]

Yes!!

This!

It's important!

Thank you Zer0!

[glacial warren]

Hornet wants to believe she's above such heroics but at the same time she really, truly does want to protect the good Bugs of this land. In part because she's already played sentinel to a kingdom's rotting corpse before, and she doesn't want Pharloom to share the same sad end her homeland, Hallownest, did.

[floral quiver]

Mhm!

[plain ruin]

She’s not a pale being she’s just a mythological deer

[foggy stratus]

Ok but how would that make her a liar to the point of lying about holding back in a fight?

[floral quiver]

Her whole "Huh. Doing good for no real reason feels...nice." is cute and an important character moment!

[near jasper]

Why would hornet hold back in godhome

[floral quiver]

Because God home isn't real. It's self or rather Godseeker perception. Hornet is the only one who realizes she's a projected instance thanks to her divine ability.

She can still only fight as well as the Godseeker perceives her ability to fight as being. Which is nowhere near as well as she fights in Pharloom.

[sinful nimbus]

Why would she hold back in Hornet 2 lmao

[near jasper]

Why would the godseeker not notice shes holding back

During her fights

[glacial warren]

But yeah I don't think she'd ever lie about withholding her strength. She respects honor and dignity in combat and enjoys a true, honest duel when she can get one. She pulled punches in Greenpath because she underestimated the Knight's prowess, and pulls off the kid gloves in the Kingdom's Edge, wanting the small creature to prove itself worthy of fetching the King's Brand.

[plain ruin]

Other bosses realize they’re in a dream

[floral quiver]

Because the Godseeker isn't a trained fighter and its difficult for laypeople to actually notice people holding back.

[edgy nebula]

her name is palestag

shes described as a stag touched pale

she’s pale

[foggy stratus]

I also feel to an extent she'd be kinda winded after fighting the Greenpath Vessel and is probably moving slower and not using her stabbing tools because of it.

[near jasper]

"hmm this Hornet 1 lady is very strong, I wonder how She got strong enough to be hornet 2"

[floral quiver]

And my issue is that later showing in Pharloom put the lie to her actually fighting with her all in her fights with the Knight.

[glacial warren]

Possibly. Every Vessel is a wickedly tough opponent, no matter its state.

[plain ruin]

It’s entirely possible the Palestag was just made up, or its power exaggerated

[edgy nebula]

while hornet questions how powerful it was, slaying it was still what made green prince ruler, and he’s the one who describes her as pale

[plain ruin]

I’d say it’s more likely to just be a myth created by the princes to justify their rule

[glacial warren]

Pharloom Hornet is a very different Hornet to Hallownest Hornet. Hallownest shows Hornet in her prime, at the height of her abilities. Pharloom Hornet is recovering after spending a prolonged timespan in a strength-sapping Rune Cage, very much in a depleted state.

[edgy nebula]

i dont think the pale aspect of it is up for debate, what is is how strong she realistically would be

[foggy stratus]

So you think she's lying because later on she's shown fighting with more zeal(I guess is the word)? Don't you think she might have gotten more skilled between the events of Hollow Knight and Silksong? And definitely during the events of Silksong?

[plain ruin]

She could have been connected to a pale being, but pale beings all desire devotion. The deer just wants to hop around and throw leaves at people

[near jasper]

I dont think hornet was holding back while protecting the literal title of king to her kingdom

[edgy nebula]

she’s a myth made real in memory we cant accurately judge her intentions cause in lost verdania she isnt real

[plain ruin]

Nothing is real in Lost Verdania

[edgy nebula]

not even hornet, that’s why she’s so out of character

[floral quiver]

Then why is Pharloom Hornet just better overall at the act of fighting?

Baseline Silksong Hornet is a consumate aerial fighter who, if played right, never touches the ground as she rains stings on the heads of her flailing enemies. Hollow Knight Hornet doesn't fight like that.

[plain ruin]

Because we are controlling her actions

And we have access to a shitload of tools and crests and all that

[floral quiver]

That doesn't change how she's very obviously designed to fight.

[near jasper]

She still was in hollow knight

[plain ruin]

She spends a fair amount of time in the air in both fights

[floral quiver]

No? If she fought in Hollow Knight like she does in Silksong she'd be constantly in the Knight's business raining strikes from above like an angry hornet. She does not.

She strikes from above without the requisite follow through that makes her style of fighting deadly.

[sharp pawn]

Have you ever heard of game design

[glacial warren]

She does fight much similarly in Hallownest, to be honest. She frequently makes use of jumps and her infamous diagonal-slanted Needle Pogo in combat, and will even leap to go into a Thread Storm for AoE/Splash Damage, also using her Sting Shard traps to make Zone Control and make entering her airspace a hazard.

[plain ruin]

If she fought like that in HK it wouldn’t play well

She fights like she does in Silksong because that game is designed around Hornet and her capabilities

[floral quiver]

Are we to assume she did the continuous aerial strikes that are core to her style off camera?

[edgy nebula]

im a bit curious about the character design choices team cherry chose for gms ngl

she feels very eldritch in the way she isnt buglike at all

[fading shard]

She's stated to have been severely weakened in game

[glacial warren]

So in effect she does have the same overall battle plan in Hallownest as she does in Pharloom, using Tools and her Silk Skills to give her a range advantage and often being airborne, using her dexterity and speed to rush the Knight down. She can even dash backwards to dodge and Parry our Nail hits to counter-attack.

[fading shard]

she only reaches her old prime at around late act 2

[floral quiver]

She's humanoid-like. Adds to the offness

[fading shard]

and past act 3 stronger

[near jasper]

Hornet to get to Silksong lost to a full chamber

[edgy nebula]

it’s a bit weird imo cause no other pale higher beings are like that

[glacial warren]

In effect, Hornet in Pharloom is basically a playable Hallownest Hornet, especially with the Hunter's Crest.

[edgy nebula]

theyre not bugs but they also fit visually in the world

[plain ruin]

Have you read the Quirrel comic

[floral quiver]

Been a while, but yes?

[plain ruin]

Her fights against Quirrel is very short but she opens by diving at him from above

[near jasper]

Im assuming a full chamber is around high halls gauntlet

[plain ruin]

She spends the entire fight above him

Hell, the entire encounter

[floral quiver]

Wish that could have been shown in the actual in game fights then.

[plain ruin]

Also the Hornet journal entry

[floral quiver]

40 people. A chamber is 40 people. And only 4 survived.

[near jasper]

She still lost

[plain ruin]

It’s shown to a limited degree, enough to demonstrate that she has an acrobatic fighting style without making the fight feel unfair for the Knight, who (in terms of gameplay) struggles greatly at dealing with fast, nimble, aerial opponents

[plain ruin]

4?

[near jasper]

Also side note could someone add more info on the high halls page for the wiki

[foggy stratus]

(Mostly early game)

[near jasper]

Theres no history or in game events section

At all

[plain ruin]

Definitely improves later yeah, but Abyss Shriek is locked behind Hornet 2

[floral quiver]

And that shows her deadliness and skill. A big part of the Choir is that the martial members of their order are all trained to a razor's edge, enough that Hornet makes comment on it in her journal.

Taking a full Chamber to the grave before waning is a sign of exceptional skill at arms.

[plain ruin]

Also where does 40 come from

[floral quiver]

Thats what a chamber is in a choir.

Like, a musical one

[plain ruin]

That doesn’t necessarily mean that a chamber in Pharloom would be made up of 40 bugs

[floral quiver]

Well, no, but given the way the Choir is talked about and talks about itself it's as good as any of the ideas thrown around the fandom about things.

The Choir is a musical choir first and foremost. It exists to make music.

Thus taking from the real world of musical Choirs is a solid supposition.

[plain ruin]

Yes, but it’s got a military role as well

[floral quiver]

And? A musical choir is extremely regimented and organized.

That's how they can do what they do.

[plain ruin]

But they also don’t have to fight

[floral quiver]

Making a large group of people play the same music and accompaniment is no small task.

[low oracle]

"The Choir" is also the description of the Citadel's bugs. They're all "Choir Bugs" now instead of "Pilgrims". The difference is that there are the regular former pilgrims, the trained fighters and the bugs operating in the Whiteward (not the patients).

[floral quiver]

Your point?

Martial sects could easily be organized as a choir does and be successful.

They just dont because of cultural pressure

[plain ruin]

Point being that this military function could greatly influence the membership of a Full Chamber

[floral quiver]

And all of the martial members of their order start as regular Choirbugs.

[plain ruin]

The Full Chamber includes at least 8 Envoys, and those aren’t the best fighters

[floral quiver]

And 40 soldiers is a small but usable grouping in the tunnel fighting of Hollow Knight.

[low oracle]

So? Every bug is a bug. But how does that apply to your statement?

[low oracle]

HK is much, much larger than you think. Bellhart for example easily has a few hundred citizens.

[floral quiver]

The Choir is a martial sect. It fights. It's not like the fighting bugs are in a sect apart from the regular choirbugs, they're all part of the same hierarchy.

[plain ruin]

Also the group sent to capture a Weaver that was eighth in part and frail with age still lost 7 Choristers and 9 Envoys

[low oracle]

Did Pilgrims ever come up in the Choir gauntlet? I think no, but I may be misremembering.

[floral quiver]

And? 40 trained bugs can hold off many more their number in tunnel fighting.

[plain ruin]

Surely they would take that into account

[low oracle]

That isn't the point. The point is that you keep saying "tunnel fighting" when there isn't a tight tunnel to speak of.

[plain ruin]

They appear in the Vaults entry gauntlet, which also uses the Choir theme. Forum lacks them completely, though

[near jasper]

What are we even doing anymore

[foggy stratus]

If she had been captured in like Deepnest than maybe but almost anywhere else yeah there aren't maybe tight tunnels.

[low oracle]

And as Frito said, if they lost Choir bugs as part of the action of tracking down Weaver-spawn, why would they only keep 40 of them around at a time? The citadel is ginourmous. They could easily have far more bugs serve in the Choir.

[foggy stratus]

Also 40 people in a tight tunnel can quickly become a burden if they're restricted in how wide they can make their numbers.

[floral quiver]

The Marrow? The Deep Docks? The Citadel itself? There's plenty of tight spaces in Pharloom. There's a fair few open places too, but not enough to make 40 bugs something not worth organizing.

[near jasper]

All those would have been trained Fighting in those tight spaces

[floral quiver]

Yes!

[plain ruin]

It’s also not specified if the groups that went after those other Weavers were also Full Chambers. It’s possible that they were smaller groups, maybe they had Half Chambers as well as Full. Either way it indicates that these Full Chambers must have been substantial in size

[floral quiver]

The joys of training and organized soldiery

[low oracle]

I do think the amount of Choir Bugs sent to capture Weaver-spawn were quite the large amount. Better to be safe that they are properly captured and secured than to just needlessly loose troops.

[near jasper]

Hornet is also probably an outlier on how much they sent since shes half wyrm

[plain ruin]

Also just went back and checked the quarter Weaver tablet. 12 Envoys, 8 Choristors lost to task

[low oracle]

The Marrow isn't very tight. At least wide enough for Skull Tyrants to traverse. Sure, there will always be tight spaces, but that isn't the point. The point is that we don't see the entire world around us.
The Citadel itself is huge too, that isn't even an argument. And the Deep Docks, the actual underground Deep Docks, aren't even a place where they would have to go, ever.

[plain ruin]

And Hornet is half Weaver, and isn’t staked to service, heavily wounded, or frail with age

[plain ruin]

She could’ve been up against a hundred Choirbugs

[floral quiver]

Basically Weavers in any part are hyperdeadly and you should preemptively pencil in losing a chunk of your soldiers sent out.

[low oracle]

Likely why we also only see around 7-9 envoys (someone on Reddit counted them) return with her.

[floral quiver]

Yes? What does this have to do with a Chamber potentially being 40 soldiers?

Like, is that too small a number to you?

[near jasper]

What are we even discussing man

[low oracle]

That it would be stupid to only have 40 at a time, when the citadel could fit hundreds. Of course they wouldn't all be in the same place, hundering each other, but they can still exist.

[low oracle]

Yes.

[foggy stratus]

At the start Gadget said that Hornet would dog on TK. Then it evolved to this ig.

[floral quiver]

... a chamber is a smaller part of a Choirs whole.

I dont think that there are only 40 soldiers in the whole citadel.

[plain ruin]

Hornet would not have been captured if 8/40 of the bugs she faced were damn Envoys

[low oracle]

That the Choir would only consist of 40 troops apparently?
Forgetting the fact that the Choir isn't the only part of the Citadel with serving bugs.

[edgy nebula]

tk is the strongest character in the verse

[candid linden]

zote

[edgy nebula]

tk has beaten hornet twice and has beaten gods stronger than gms

[plain ruin]

Sherma:

[candid linden]

fr

[floral quiver]

That's not what i said and you've misunderstood badly

[edgy nebula]

saying hornet beats tk is js stupid

[floral quiver]

A chamber is a 40 person grouping in a full choir that is bigger than 40 people

[plain ruin]

Full Chamber would have to be made up of more than 40 bugs to stand a chance against Hornet

[sharp pawn]

How did this conversation even start

[plain ruin]

Given what we know of the membership

[floral quiver]

People completely misunderstanding what I said.

[sharp pawn]

Right great explanation thanks

[candid linden]

so why dont you just be clear

[foggy stratus]

At the start Gadget said that Hornet would dog on TK. Then it evolved to this ig.

[sharp pawn]

The humble shade lord

[floral quiver]

Highly skilled and razor keen instincts enough that it's mentioned as nearly exceptional by a centuries old divine warrior princess?

[candid linden]

I hope the next mc can fly

[low oracle]

But why would the High Halls (forum) only have 40 then? For starters, what is the exact number of enemies we fight (excluding Silk Maidens)? Do the Priests (teacup helmet guys that fly, forgot the name) also count, when they are also found elsewhere in the High Halls?

[floral quiver]

I was. People just dont know what a chamber is.

[plain ruin]

The words of this entry apply to the Choir as a whole

[foggy stratus]

Neither do you really, you're just assuming.

[sharp pawn]

I hope the next mc is mister mushroom

[floral quiver]

... I didnt say that it did?

[plain ruin]

She didn’t think that the Envoys specifically were the greatest soldiers known to bugkind

[low oracle]

Then give us the pleasure of your explanation.

[plain ruin]

She just thought that the Choirbug soldiers were competent

[low oracle]

Pardon?

[floral quiver]

My supposition is that a chamber is a group of 40 bugs because a chamber is a group of 40 people in a full choir.

[plain ruin]

Full Chamber is only ever used in reference to capturing Hornet

[floral quiver]

A choir is made up of multiple chambers!

[plain ruin]

Forum isn’t necessarily a Full Chamber

[low oracle]

Alright, I see what you mean then.

[plain ruin]

Especially since we only fight one Envoy in there

[floral quiver]

I never mentioned the forum. Others did.

Assuming that that gauntlet was comparable to the force that captured Hornet

Wait.

You're saying what I'm saying in this instance

Sorry

[plain ruin]

The gauntlet isn’t a good comparison for this

We only fight a singular Envoy in the Forum

[floral quiver]

Yeah?

I know

I dont think it is

I never brought it up as a possibility remember?

[plain ruin]

Oh wait are you saying it was others assuming this

[floral quiver]

Yes.

[plain ruin]

Ah mb, the break between the replies made me think it was a separate point

[floral quiver]

No problem

[low oracle]

Only SS lore here.

[floral quiver]

And to be clear, the Choir being highly trained and competent is a major part of their character. Hornet talks constantly in her journal about how well trained and skilled the soldiers of the Citadel are and how she can tell thanks to their bladework and bearing, with bugs higher in the hierarchy being even more razor honed in both blade and silk than those below.

She can fight scores of them, but only because she's a centuries old demigoddess and a Weaver.

And even then she's required to be at her best or she'll lose.

[foggy stratus]

She's multiple bug life times old. Centuires don't exist in HK world.

Also, get this, she could also be skilled and that's why it took so many to take her down.

Not just due to bloodline.

[plain ruin]

All of which points to a Full Chamber being made up of more than 40 bugs

[chrome geode]

no i think she was just lucky trust

[foggy stratus]

A Full Chamber could be that massive room in the background of the High Halls gauntlet room.

[plain ruin]

Full Chamber refers to the group sent to capture Hornet

[foggy stratus]

Yes I'm aware.

[floral quiver]

Being a weaver at all means that a chunk of your troops aren't coming home, no matter the state the Weaverkin is in.

Weavers are hyperdeadly as a rule.

[foggy stratus]

Yeah, but that doesn't detract from her skill which you only indirectly mentioned.

[floral quiver]

Hornet just hones that talent into a point so fine it defeats gods.

[plain ruin]

Can’t be, there’s a bunch of dead Choir Pilgrims in the background

[foggy stratus]

A god*

[plain ruin]

Choir Pilgrims wouldn’t have been sent out to deal with Weaverspawn

[edgy nebula]

a heavily weakened god*

[foggy stratus]

Hmm. I thought it was just the military choir bugs.

[floral quiver]

I assumed that people would take Hornet being exceptionally skilled as a given and not need it spelled out.

[foggy stratus]

You spelled out her being old and a Weaver so I figured you were just stating facts about her.

[plain ruin]

There are Chorister corpses and stuff back there too, yeah

[floral quiver]

Every choirbug is a military bug. The Choir is a militant order

[floral quiver]

Her being old and a Weaver is a large reason why she's so preternaturally skilled at killing.

Her own obsessive efforts compounded her natural talents shaped them and her long life honed them.

[plain ruin]

Only the veiled ones were expected to fulfill a military role. Unveiled bugs weren’t the kind of bugs sent out to fight stuff

[floral quiver]

And? They were still part of the hierarchy. You don't rise in the ranks of the cult without fighting.

[plain ruin]

They could have been asked to fight an intruder if necessary I guess, but they were singers and servants, not soldiers.

Soldiers were permitted to and trained to become soldiers to reward their devotion

[floral quiver]

And they can rise in rank and become so.

Every soldier was once a pilgrim is my point. The Choir is a militant order who's middle ranks are filled with fighters

And higher ranks are full of former fighters

[plain ruin]

Alright, yeah